Alexander McAllister Rivera: It was a good thing that I did because when I was working for the German guide, the Navy decided that they were going to open up a office of intelligence list, this ONI, Office of Naval Intelligence, two Blacks. But I didn't know this and somebody had recommended me. 

Mary Hebert: Oh. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: I'm on my porch. Policeman came up and arrested me and I didn't know for what. I said, "What is this about?" I was carried to the police station and carried straight through and in the back of the police station there was a conference room. Then is Nathan Brass was sitting in there and I was introduced to them and the commander took one look at me. She raised her nose. She said, "He'll never do. He'll never do." I told the commander, I said, "Now listen, I don't understand what all this about. Now what is it, I won't ever do—I never knew about. What is this?" I said, "You got to explain. You owe me this to explain to me." He said, "Well, I told the recruiter that I wanted a nondescript negro." I said, "Well, if you talking about what I have on, clothes and whatnot," I said, "Look, I'm about as nondescript you can get." 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: I said, "None of this is tattooed to me. I can wear anything you want wear. I can come down and do just what you want, but I want to know what it's about." Then he started—Got little interested and he started talking and he said—Talking about my background out there, that time I'd had two years' law training. He says, "Well, we'll think about it. I'm not going to say no." I got a—Sitting on the porch again, these policemen came back. This time they carried me to the Navy base, went out the Navy and his name was Glass, Commander Glass. I went out there and Commander Glass says, "I found you interesting." He said, "I'm rethought my position and we want to hire you." Then I was carried in the Naval Intelligence and Norfolk Naval Base. There I spent the duration. 

Mary Hebert: What kinds of—Was that a segregated unit or was it integrated? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: What? 

Mary Hebert: The— 

Felicia Woods: Naval— 

Mary Hebert: —Naval Intelligence. 

Felicia Woods: —Intelligence program. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: You never know. It was integrated. I did know, but I wasn't supposed to know. But they also brought in a close friend of mine. We got together and we admitted to each other that we had been hired. But it was integrated. 

Felicia Woods: Integrated, okay. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Naval Intelligence was integrated. My goodness. All over the world. But that was the first time they brought some Black men in. 

Mary Hebert: Oh, I know you might not be able to go into what exactly you did, but what were some of your duties as a Naval Intelligence? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: It was undercover. 

Felicia Woods: Undercover. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Undercover. 

Mary Hebert: Would you go out into neighborhoods? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Oh, yeah. Anything—We watched—We listened to conversations and usually, especially in parties and people drinking and they had an expression in those days, "Loose lips sink ships." You ever heard it? 

Mary Hebert: Mm-hmm. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Loose lips sink ships. We were listening to people with loose lips talking and especially in on any party affair where there would be Naval people. See, if the Naval person says, "Well, I got to ship out tomorrow." That's a no-no, just saying, "I've got to leave tomorrow." Because anybody who's smart enough will find out what unit you're attached to. They know right then and there that your unit is going out tomorrow. They know what ship it is, how many people on it. Just by saying one thing, "Well, I got to ship out tomorrow." Just by saying that one thing was enough to involve a whole ship. Well, could be more than that. Could be a fleet. Because the ship would very seldom go by itself and war time. Those are kind of things, listening and observing and anything, any little bit that you could pick up. I reported directly to Captain Glass. 

Mary Hebert: Okay. I was reading some of the information that Paul gave us on your background and there was something in there about you working for the Pittsburgh Courier and traveling through the south. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: I was supposed to do North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia. But I did all over the world with them. 

Mary Hebert: What about the issue of lynching and weren't you doing some kind of— 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: I covered the last lynching in South Carolina. That was Earle Warren and I covered the last lynching in Georgia and that was Isaiah Nixon. I covered the last lynch attempt in North Carolina and that was a boy named Buddy Bush in Jackson, North Carolina. Those are the last that I covered. But I was involved in a lot of— 

Mary Hebert: How did these communities treat you as an African-American photojournalist coming into the community to expose the lynchings that were going on over these in these communities? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: They had no idea. 

Mary Hebert: Was your life threatened? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Not—I was in threatening situations, but I never had anybody to put a gun to me and say, "This is it." But I've been in some very tough situations. 

Mary Hebert: What kind of situation? 

Felicia Woods: Can you describe them for me? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Well, in the Warren case in Greenville, South Carolina, I went to the judge's chambers to present my press pass in order to get court passed and whatnot. The bailiff came to the door and said, "What do you want?" I said, "I need some, my court passes and whatnot." "Who are you?" I gave him my press pass. He snatched it and slammed the door. I didn't know whether to ever expect to see him again or my pass. I guess about 10 minutes—It seemed longer, but I'm sure it wasn't long. About 10 minutes, he came back and said, "The judge wants to see you." I went in to see the judge, very nice fellow. George Martin, he said, "This is a very difficult case." He said, "I'm going for a conviction." He said, "I'm going to need your help." He said, "This is a bad situation." Thirty-one Texas cab drivers had lynched this guy, Warren. I give you the wrong name, correct that. I don't know why I say Earle Warren, Willie Earle. Willie Earle. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: He said, "Thirty-one taxi cab drivers killed him, took him out and lynched him." He said, "Now, in South Carolina the law allows anybody being held for murder to have their next of kin with them." He said, "Now, in this court down here, there are going to be 62 people." He said, "Now, they're not proud of what they did. And so they don't want any publicity about it." They say, "When they see you and see that camera around your neck, they're assuming that you can use it." They said, "Now, I couldn't be responsible no way in the world for me to give you protection, you'd be responsible for you. And so I'm going to ask you to sit in the balcony." I said, "Oh, no." I said, "Oh, no, I can't do that." He said, "Now, I asked you." He said, "Now I'm going—I know you want conviction as much as I do." 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: He said, "I'm just asking you." Said, "If you think about it—Think about it." He said, "Now, it's going to be dangerous for you. It's going to be difficult for me with you sitting down there, just sitting down there." I went home and I was with a fella who had covered the Scottsboro lynching. I don't know whether you ever heard of it, the Scottsboro lynching case, one of the early cases. I said, "Man, can you imagine the judge asked me to sit upstairs in the balcony?" He was telling me that this might as tense is. I said, "I don't see anything tense here." He said, "Let me tell you one thing." He said, "Tension here is worse than I've ever seen it." Then I became frightened because I said, "Well, if I don't know it if I don't feel it, I'm supposed to be hurt." 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Then I went back. He said, "You better sit in the balcony." Said, "For your good. You sit in the balcony." I went back the next morning and I told the judge, "Yes, I would. I would sit in the balcony." Then I had got in a room with a lady whose husband had been under [indistinct 00:11:15], very nice place, nice house and everything. But I was referred to her from here. The next morning when I got up, she said, "Look, he didn't tell me that you were covering this lynching case." 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: I said, "Yeah, I'm with Pittsburgh Courier. And I thought you knew." She said, "I'm here by myself, I'm a widow woman." And says, "I don't know what they would do to me if they just knew that you would staying here." Said, "They'd burn this house down with me and you both in here." She asked me to leave. The next morning I had to leave. I didn't have a place to stay or anything. The preacher there who was also chairman, NAACP. He said, "Well, come on over to my house." He was by himself. He wasn't married. That's where I ended up. That's where all of us stayed. All the newspaper people stayed at his house. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: It was in the summertime, I forgot the month, but one day I was sitting up at the typing before a window like [indistinct 00:12:19]. He came in and said, "Boy, are you crazy?" He virtually snatched me away from the window. He said, "Look," he said, "You going get killed sitting up there in front of that window." He asked me about being in [indistinct 00:12:33] and he made me move. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: On Sunday, he asked us to go to church with him. I said, "No." I said, "I'm going to take this time to rest. I'm just tired." I said, "You go ahead. I'm going—If you don't mind, I'm going to rest." When he packed his briefcase, I saw him put a pistol on top. I said, "Is that the only pistol you got in this house?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "Well, I'm going with you, because I'm going with that pistol." We went to church with him, but to show you how—he is a minister. He preached on his sermon. In his sermon, he told them to go to Sears and he said, "I want everybody to go to Sears and buy a gun." A minister preaching that kind of—Talking and stuff. 

Mary Hebert: This was the 1950s. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Huh? 

Mary Hebert: This was in the '50s? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: No, '48. 

Mary Hebert: Forty-eight. 

Felicia Woods: Forty-eight. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Forty-seven or '48, Willie—The other one was 47, I think it was, '47 or '48. I have. 

Mary Hebert: Why was Willie Earle lynched? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: He was supposed to have said something to some White girl and didn't do anything but attempted to make a date or something that somebody said that he did. But that was the situation. 

Mary Hebert: In the other cases wasn't something— 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Isaiah Nixon? 

Mary Hebert: Something like that? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: No. Isaiah Nixon voted. 

Mary Hebert: He voted? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Isaiah Nixon voted. Buddy Bush, the one that almost had a lynching was in Jackson, North Carolina. He said something on the street to some White girl on Saturday afternoon they were in the street, going to the theater. He was supposed to have said something to her. I covered another case, the Mack Ingram case, I forgot the exact date of that. But all in the same timeframe, Mack Ingram was convicted in two courts, the municipal court and the Superior court. He was convicted for leering. Now leering is an old English word that means to stare, but he didn't say anything because he was across a field. This girl said that he leered at her. He was across a field and he was convicted in two courts. It wasn't until we got a letter from Thurgood Marshall NAACP, the court had asked him to send me over to Yanceyville. This was in Yanceyville, North Carolina. I went over there. Sure enough we found that he had actually been convicted in two courts. Once it got hit the national press, we were able to expose the irony of this. He was freed. 

Mary Hebert: Do you remember the name of the preacher in the Willie Earle or the church? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: I'd have to go back to—See, everything—I know I sound careless, but everything that I've done is either in the Library of Congress or one of these libraries. The library I do, it's all in those back papers and I'd have to go back. I didn't—When I was doing the work, it was just a job, a day by day job. When the job was over and the day was over, then I'd look for something—A drink or something to do. I have to point out, it was just—I didn't have any idea that I was involved in any historic episodes at all. 

Mary Hebert: Now obviously you traveled a lot for these cases and the whole issue of travel for African Americans in the south was a difficult one. Did you have to stop at the side of the road to sleep? Would you find places to stay everywhere? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: I would never—Sure. Now, the Isaiah Nixon case, this brings up the—I had a Roadmaster Buick. When I left here, I was dressed as a chauffeur. Kept right in that cross, I'll save it forever because it saved my life. I was dressed as a chauffeur, chauffeur cap, little black bow tie. Wherever I wanted to stop at a filling station or anything, I was accorded all privileges because in the situation I would channel, I was working for some White person, they would assume. Where they would've denied me had I been in dressed otherwise, "Come on in, what do you want? blah, blah blah. Okay. Blah, blah." But they treated me—Now another trick that I used to use if I was afraid and I'm driving down the highway and I saw a White hitchhiker and he'd stop and I said, "Come on, come on." Now everybody knew then that I was working for him. He was hitch-hiking, he didn't even have money enough to ride. But just the scene, they would assume that I was driving for him. See? I would do that as a safety measure in a lot of times. 

Mary Hebert: Did you do that every time you were out? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: No, not every time, but just sometimes. But when you got to your destination, you always filled up with gas. When you got to your destination, where you were, you do not know how fast you're going have to leave and whatnot. The first thing you do before you do anything, make any contacts at all, fill up with gasoline. You'd get a good running start, as good as you can have. But now Isaiah Nixon case, this was the closest I've ever came to death. I'll just tell you about it. When I got to the little town, I met a man cleaning off front of his house. I asked him if he'd take me up to—If he knew Isaiah Nixon, he said, "Yeah, I know." I said, "Will you take me up there?" 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: He says, "You can't get up there in that car." I said, "Well, will you take me out there?" "No." I said, "Well, I'll give you $25 to take me out there." He said, "Okay. He'll take—I said, "You'll take me." He took me up and this was between—It's very eerie. Between the where the pine trees are being bled for rosen and the buckets are hanging on the tree. You ever see that sight? Where it'd go up, it's winding like this. It's just room for a car to go up. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: I went up to the opening, clearing the house up in the clearing. The mother was there with little children and I interviewed her, took pictures of them, took pictures of children, talked to them. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: This fellow who took me up there was just waiting. We left and we made this turn and got back down in this turpentine neighborhood. There was a car waiting there full of Whites. Well, I just knew it was up then. I said to this guy who took me up there, I said, "Who are they?" He said, "One of them's the high sheriff," said, "I don't know who else." Talking under his breath. The guy who he said was the high sheriff came around, said, "Who is this?" He knew him. Said, "Who is this you got with you?" He said, "He came up to see about funeral arrangements for Nixon." 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Now I had not told him to say that because I didn't expect to have any problems. We didn't come up with any escape alibi at all. They told us to back up and carried us back up to this area that we just left. Well, I didn't expect anything. We hadn't come up with any concoction or any escape. They told us to stay in the car. This guy who was a high sheriff went in the house and I said, "Well, I guess—I don't know what to think now, sure enough." The kids are out there. In those days, they had a little flash bug by the size of [indistinct 00:22:13]. We used to call them peanuts. They had little flash bugs. I had shot a lot of pictures around there. As you shoot the bugs, you just throw them away. They're all over the yard. The kids were playing with them and all around this car. People were sitting there. These little kids said, "When the man took my pictures," said, "and the light went off," and said, "I got scared." They said, "Child, what did you do?" Blah, blah, blah. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: The guy came out the house said, "You can go now." Now here—I don't know whether they are just letting us down where those trees are or actually letting me go. Because I don't know what they said in the house. I got back down to my car and the nearest town from where I was, was Atlanta, not coming back home. Because I told you about having a full tank of gas. I headed for Atlanta. Because that was the nearest big town. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: I headed for Atlanta and I went straight to Bishop Fountain. He was the bishop of my church. I went straight to Bishop Fountain's house and I was nervous as I could be. When I got there, I rang the bell. He came from the door, Bishop Fountain, he's known me because I cover a lot of stories. But he looked at me, he said, "Yes?" I said, "Bishop Fountain." He said, "Yes?" Then all of a sudden, he says, "Alec," he says, "What in the world is that you got on?" Talking about my chauffeur cap. I'd forgotten I had it on. Then he said, "Come in here." I told him what had happened and whatever the nearest I ever came to actually meeting my maker, I think. 

Felicia Woods: What city was that in Georgia, do you remember? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: No, it was in the country. I had to find out what it is. I got to check some notes I have upstairs. It was out in the country. Newman, I think. Newman. Close to Newman, Georgia. I'm not sure. I'd have to check that. I think it's Newman, Georgia. 

Mary Hebert: How much longer do you have? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: I don't care. Am I talking too much? 

Mary Hebert: No, no, no. I just didn't know if you had something planned for later today or in the next— 

Felicia Woods: Thirty minutes. 

Mary Hebert: When did you come back to Durham to live? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: After the war. 

Mary Hebert: After the war? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Well, immediately after the war, I went to work for the Pittsburgh Courier. That's when I was- 

Mary Hebert: Right. [indistinct 00:25:00]. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: —started then. This was—See, I married in 1941 and I married a girl whose parents live right here. All of them are dead. My first wife, her name was Hazel. She's dead. Her mother and father are dead and all that. This—I'm a party of one. I was in and out of this very house. But I came back here and after the war, and it was in 1974. 

Mary Hebert: Still working. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: They came back. I was over here and they kept coming, "We know we want you to come back to work. We know we can't offer you what you could get and what we would like to pay, but we don't want you to come back." I said, "Well, you haven't made an offer yet. You don't know what I—" We was playing, captain, his teasing. They made me an offer. I said, "Well, I don't blame you for being ashamed, but since I'm as close I'll see how it works out. We'll try it for a while." That was 1974. 

Mary Hebert: Since I've been here, I've heard a lot about the different Black neighborhoods within Durham. Could you describe some of those to me? I'm really not sure of exactly which ones they were and where they were located and what the people were like in them. Do you know much about that? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: The first would not be a neighborhood, it would be a business district. The first would be the business district, which was as a North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company is the mutual savings and loan company. They were on Parrish Street. 

Mary Hebert: Paris? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: P-A-R-R-I-S-H, Parrish. Parrish Street. 

Mary Hebert: Were those businesses owned by—You've talked about the interlocking— 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: They were— 

Mary Hebert: [indistinct 00:27:22]. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Now that street across of the—Oh, well, they can give you the bank, the Mechanics and Farmer's Bank was three businesses on there. After the bank holiday was over—You remember that? That was under Roosevelt. Under the bank. When the bank holiday was over, the Mechanics and Farmers Bank was the first bank to open of all the banks in the—It was the first bank to open. As far as the business establishment was concerned, they got the reputation of being the soundest bank in town. They got a lot of White business, especially Jewish business, a lot of it. 

Mary Hebert: That bank had White business people dealing with them and had White depositors and those kinds of things? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: They did, but they got more. After the bank holiday when they were first to open. See, they got more then because they figured that it was solid bank. Others were struggling. This bank—The first day they opened right up full of money. But that financial district was called the Black Wall Street. 

Felicia Woods: Black Wall Street? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: The Black Wall Street of U.S.A. because of the business. Now when you leave there, the next district—The next—You start getting into typical Black businesses. That would be restaurants and drug stores, barber shops and beauty salons. Those coming on, those things. 

Mary Hebert: That's one where the freeway runs now, isn't it? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: No, beyond it. Before the freeway. Before for the freeway and after. Both. Because the freeway wasn't there. 

Mary Hebert: Right. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: The freeway just cut— 

Mary Hebert: Cut through. 

Felicia Woods: Cut through. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: —cut through it. But that district was called Hayti. There was another district that you almost never hear of that it was behind a little area behind the Wonderland Theater. Wonderland Theater. It was a district house—A neighborhood there that was called Mexico. Now Mexico was tough. You didn't have no policeman would go in there by himself. I mean, none. I don't care how brave or crazy he was. He wouldn't go in there by himself. 

Mary Hebert: Were they juke joints and those kinds of things? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Everything. 

Mary Hebert: Did many people live in that neighborhood? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: They had residences. But you had all types of—Now you didn't have any dope. You had had bootleg liquor, but you didn't have dope. But you had some gambling, bootleg liquor and some prostitution and especially down in Mexico. But it was rough. Then of course now, Hayti stopped at Enterprise Street and would be about Enterprise and Fayetteville. Then you had from there on down, Fayetteville Street was where all of the big enterprising families live. Where all of them down Fayetteville Street. 

Mary Hebert: The people who have owned businesses in the Black business district would've probably lived in this neighborhood? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Yeah, from here back. 

Mary Hebert: Okay. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: From here back. Now my father-in-law was principal of school. Before coming here, he was president of Kittrell College. They would give you an idea of what type did you have here? 

Felicia Woods: Excuse me, what was the name of that college? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Kittrell, K-I-T-T-R-E-L-L, Kittrell College, which is in Kittrell, North Carolina. It was a AME school. African Methodist Episcopal School. 

Felicia Woods: What is it a college? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Kittrell College. 

Felicia Woods: Was it a liberal arts college? Do you know? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: It was liberal arts because it didn't have any vocation. That's about it as far as the districts. 

Mary Hebert: What about The Bottoms? I hear that The Bottoms, too. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: The Bottoms was over—Not in this area at all. It's northwest. In northwest, there was some all residential and those were where a lot of the people lived who worked at the tobacco factories. We had tobacco factories and hosiery mills where a lot of those people lived. But they was over in the northwest section. It was—People don't call it now, but it was called The Bottoms as the people referring to it. 

Mary Hebert: Did you go out and photograph everything? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Almost all my photography was for the school and the businesses. I had no interest in the sociological side of it. I mean, and pictures. I just never had any interest in taking pictures of people. First of all, they couldn't buy the picture then. As I said, I knew they were there. There's some things that, my own attitude was didn't need to be preserved for posterity. I guess I should have. Looking back over it, I would have. But I didn't. 

Mary Hebert: What kinds of pictures did you take? Was it of people of buildings? I haven't seen much of your work and I just want to—Could you describe some of that? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Well, virtually all the pictures I took were for the newspaper story that I was doing. Illustrate the story. When you go down to the library, you'll see something down there to get an idea of the kind of stuff we took. 

Mary Hebert: Were you involved in the civil rights movement here in the '50s and '60s? Did you become active in that also? Did you just cover it as a reporter? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Just as a reporter. That was my involvement. 

Mary Hebert: Now I was reading that you took photos of the sites for the Brown case. Did you go to all the different cities and communities that were involved in the Brown case like Summerton, South Carolina and those other places? 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: You might know and you might not know. The case that was really involved was not Brown. It was the Clarendon County School System. 

Mary Hebert: The Briggs case. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: The Briggs case. You know about that. 

Mary Hebert: [indistinct 00:36:50]. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Well, that was the pivotal case. The Briggs case. That was the case that Thurgood Marshall was on. Thurgood Marshall was not in the Brown case. The Brown case was handled by Jack Greenberg. Now what happened was—All of this stuff that you see, they almost never mention Briggs, never mention Clarendon County. But that's the way it all was. That's where—You see, Judge—We were in the Clarendon County case when it started—When the people in Clarendon County asked the school officials for a bus, they didn't even ask for a new bus. They asked for a bus. Just a bus to transport the kids to school. They were told, "If you want a bus, go out and buy one." Then that's when stuff hit the fan. Because the Blacks got angry. They said, "Well—" Then they got in the NAACP. NAACP said, "Well, we're not going to ask for no bus." Then they started out asking for a school equal. They were asking for separate but equal. That's how it started. Separate but equal. One morning Judge Julius Waring called Thurgood Marshall into his chambers. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: We were sitting in the courtroom, didn't know why he was calling him. Thurgood Marshall came out of the courtroom and Thurgood was a big guy. He was always full of life. But he came back and he didn't have any smile on his face. We didn't know what in the world that judge had told him to put him in that move. Thurgood came around a group of lawyers and said, "Judge Waring told me he did not want to hear another separate but equal case." He said, "I want you to bring now a frontal attack on segregation." Well, the NAACP was planning to do that somewhere in the future, but they weren't planning to do that that morning. The NAACP was meeting in Boston and so Thurgood Marshall had to call Roy Wilkins to tell him what the situation was. Roy Wilkins was [indistinct 00:39:46], everybody was. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Finally, they decided that they were going to have to bring a front attack on segregation. But then they told Judge Waring this and that, "We'll win this case under you because you asked—" Said, "But in the appellate court, the three judge court, we aren't going to have one vote next. That's yours, we're going to lose it." He said, "You are right." Said, "You're going to lose it in appellate court. But then what?" Said, "Then you automatically get to the Supreme Court and that's the where you want to be. That's where you want to be. You're going to be in the Supreme Court." They did. And exactly what happened, what he told them, they won in his court, they lost in appellate court and then went to the Supreme Court. That's—But all of this was done because of the work done in Briggs. Now the reason why it was called Briggs—I mean Brown and not Briggs, normally it would be named alphabetically. All right. But now it was not named Brown—I mean, Briggs because the feeling was that in the Supreme Court when it went to the Supreme Court that they would not have a feeling that here's another attack on the south. See. 

Mary Hebert: The Brown was— 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: Brown. 

Mary Hebert: It was in Topeka. 

Alexander McAllister Rivera: That's right. They said, "Now, we don't want them to feel that like, well, okay, here you come again. Another attack on the south. They named it the Brown case. Brown versus Topeka Board of Education. That's how it was not Briggs. 

Mary Hebert: I need to put in—