WEBVTT 1 00:01.000 --> 00:02.000 —how the things taper. The further your move south, the more things taper off. 2 00:02.000 --> 00:10.000 Oh. Yeah? 3 00:10.000 --> 00:13.000 We had a very advanced culture. We had taken a step backwards, back in time, we thought. 4 00:13.000 --> 00:15.000 Hmm? When did you— 5 00:15.000 --> 00:18.000 But we found so many people, so many very nice people here. 6 00:18.000 --> 00:18.000 —Yeah. 7 00:18.000 --> 00:19.000 That, of course, makes the difference. 8 00:19.000 --> 00:21.000 And the job. 9 00:21.000 --> 00:21.000 Right. 10 00:21.000 --> 00:22.000 Good jobs. 11 00:22.000 --> 00:24.000 When did you all come to Tallahassee? 12 00:24.000 --> 00:26.000 1948. September 1st, 1948. 13 00:26.000 --> 00:27.000 1948? How was the city? 14 00:27.000 --> 00:27.000 It was no city. 15 00:27.000 --> 00:27.000 Well, it was 60,000 people, but 130,000 now. 16 00:27.000 --> 00:27.000 Oh. Okay. 17 00:27.000 --> 00:27.000 How many were—Was it '50? 18 00:27.000 --> 00:27.000 This was under 55. 19 00:27.000 --> 00:37.000 Under 55? Okay. I was going to say— 20 00:37.000 --> 00:42.000 We won a radio, predicting the 1950 census. 21 00:42.000 --> 00:42.000 Yeah. 22 00:42.000 --> 00:46.000 About Tallahassee. They had a city-wide contest. 23 00:46.000 --> 00:46.000 Oh. Really? 24 00:46.000 --> 00:49.000 Of what the official '50 census would be. And we won 3rd place, on the radio. 25 00:49.000 --> 00:49.000 You did. You did. 26 00:49.000 --> 00:49.000 Okay. 27 00:49.000 --> 00:49.000 That's why I know it was 55. 28 00:49.000 --> 00:49.000 Were you living— 29 00:49.000 --> 00:56.000 Well, about 48,000. 30 00:56.000 --> 00:59.000 —What neighborhood were you all living in? 31 00:59.000 --> 01:00.000 Well, just on the other side of the campus, just about the same distance from the buildings, as here. It was Polkinghorne Village, you see? 32 01:00.000 --> 01:06.000 Okay. 33 01:06.000 --> 01:06.000 It's the campus, married children's project now. 34 01:06.000 --> 01:07.000 Oh. Okay. 35 01:07.000 --> 01:16.000 Yeah. And so, married student's project. But it was, then, the faculty, married faculty. And single faculty lived there, too, didn't they? No. No. No. 36 01:16.000 --> 01:16.000 It was for faculty. 37 01:16.000 --> 01:21.000 It was primarily— 38 01:21.000 --> 01:27.000 Yeah. Since house was very difficult, at that time, they opened up, it was actually barracks, barracks from Seymour Johnson— 39 01:27.000 --> 01:27.000 —The Army base. 40 01:27.000 --> 01:27.000 —Base. 41 01:27.000 --> 01:27.000 Mm-hmm. 42 01:27.000 --> 01:27.000 They brought the stuff here. And we were glad to get that. 43 01:27.000 --> 01:27.000 Yes. 44 01:27.000 --> 01:27.000 Oh. Yeah? 45 01:27.000 --> 01:28.000 Mm-hmm. 46 01:28.000 --> 01:38.000 And it only cost us, what? $15.00 a month. 47 01:38.000 --> 01:48.000 Very, very low cost. And we liked it. This was about the only place available, so we stayed over there for six years. 48 01:48.000 --> 01:49.000 Oh. Yeah? 49 01:49.000 --> 01:49.000 Until the president ran us out. 50 01:49.000 --> 01:49.000 That's how it goes. 51 01:49.000 --> 01:49.000 Oh. Yeah? 52 01:49.000 --> 01:49.000 Dr. Gordon came in and said, "You no longer can—Faculty members, he better get out of that cheap housing." 53 01:49.000 --> 01:55.000 Yeah. 54 01:55.000 --> 01:56.000 Okay, great. 55 01:56.000 --> 01:56.000 Oh. Yes. Southern— 56 01:56.000 --> 01:57.000 So the city was segregated in Florida? 57 01:57.000 --> 01:59.000 —Oh. Absolutely. 58 01:59.000 --> 02:01.000 Very much. Very much. Very much. Everything was segregated. 59 02:01.000 --> 02:03.000 Was it very difficult, functioning? 60 02:03.000 --> 02:15.000 It was really southerner. We knew what the story was, but it was a little bit more so than mid-south, where we come from, North Carolina, Tennessee. It was a little bit more rigid than that. 61 02:15.000 --> 02:16.000 Yeah? 62 02:16.000 --> 02:24.000 The way you learned to handle segregation is that you know that it's there. 63 02:24.000 --> 02:24.000 Right. 64 02:24.000 --> 02:39.000 And you avoid as many unpleasant experiences as you can, by just not positioning yourself in them, so you do. And Blacks pretty much had their own society, so we didn't have to. 65 02:39.000 --> 02:40.000 That's right. Especially in the— 66 02:40.000 --> 02:41.000 We had our own churches, our own schools— 67 02:41.000 --> 02:41.000 —college community. 68 02:41.000 --> 02:41.000 —our own social life. 69 02:41.000 --> 02:47.000 Right. 70 02:47.000 --> 02:50.000 So our contact with segregation was when we needed to go- 71 02:50.000 --> 02:51.000 Buy something. 72 02:51.000 --> 02:56.000 —shopping at the department stores. 73 02:56.000 --> 02:57.000 Right. 74 02:57.000 --> 03:07.000 And when we wanted to go to the movies. And when we wanted to make a major purchase, like a car. 75 03:07.000 --> 03:07.000 Okay. 76 03:07.000 --> 03:07.000 Then, you wondered how you were going to be treated. 77 03:07.000 --> 03:10.000 Even on my checks now, I never put my full name. 78 03:10.000 --> 03:11.000 Yes. 79 03:11.000 --> 03:11.000 No? 80 03:11.000 --> 03:11.000 I just put E.M. 81 03:11.000 --> 03:12.000 Yeah? 82 03:12.000 --> 03:16.000 Because they'll call you by your first name, so they never knew, E.M. So I never changed it. 83 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 Oh. Yeah? 84 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 It's still E.M. Thorpe. And I put Mrs. E.M. Thorpe, so they didn't know what her name was. 85 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 Right. 86 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 They didn't know what my name was. 87 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 And this is what you went up against, they would— 88 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 Hmm? How would you feel about that? 89 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 And I just never changed that all. And here is 48, that means the year we came here, when I went to that bank. 90 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 Oh. Okay. 91 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 1948. 92 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 —Well, we were exhausted by it. You know? 93 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 In September of '48, I took out an account at this bank. And I took it out as E.M. Thorpe and Mrs. E.M., so they wouldn't know that her name was Annette and didn't know my Edwin. 94 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 Right. 95 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 Because this is how they would address you, by your first name. 96 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 First name. 97 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 Hmm? 98 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 No matter how, you could be a professor, a doctor— 99 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 That's right. 100 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 —Indian Chief, or whatever. 101 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 Really? 102 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 Yeah. 103 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 Oh. Yeah. 104 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 This is there way, of course— 105 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 And I could— 106 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 —of keeping Blacks in their place, whatever their place was. 107 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 Right. 108 03:16.000 --> 03:16.000 So you attempted to avoid it, by doing that kind of things, so that they wouldn't know your first name. 109 03:16.000 --> 03:19.000 Okay. 110 03:19.000 --> 03:37.000 And so, how would—Then, they had no way to address you. They weren't going to say, "Mrs. Thorpe or Mrs. E.M. Thorpe." 111 03:37.000 --> 03:37.000 —Or, "Mr." 112 03:37.000 --> 04:20.000 Or, "Mr. Thorpe." They were just going to say— 113 04:20.000 --> 04:24.000 They would call you a reverend, now, right quick. 114 04:24.000 --> 04:24.000 Really? 115 04:24.000 --> 04:24.000 —Mm-hmm. 116 04:24.000 --> 04:30.000 Mm-hmm. Because they that was belittling. And so— 117 04:30.000 --> 04:30.000 Oh. Okay. 118 04:30.000 --> 04:30.000 Everybody was a reverend. 119 04:30.000 --> 04:30.000 —Blacks, it was, "Reverend." 120 04:30.000 --> 04:30.000 Hmm? 121 04:30.000 --> 04:34.000 All Blacks. 122 04:34.000 --> 04:35.000 A preacher, a preacher going to call you a preacher. 123 04:35.000 --> 04:37.000 Now, where were you living, before here? 124 04:37.000 --> 04:38.000 Charlotte, North Carolina. 125 04:38.000 --> 04:39.000 Uh-huh. 126 04:39.000 --> 04:40.000 Was it very different? 127 04:40.000 --> 04:45.000 Yeah. Yeah. It's in mid-south, see? In mid-south there's a good compromise. 128 04:45.000 --> 04:53.000 But we didn't run into quite as much. I only lived there two years because I was teaching at Johnson C. Smith. 129 04:53.000 --> 04:54.000 Okay. 130 04:54.000 --> 04:54.000 And he lived— 131 04:54.000 --> 04:59.000 And Knoxville and Memphis are about the same. 132 04:59.000 --> 04:59.000 —Right. Knoxville. Not Memphis. No Memphis. 133 04:59.000 --> 05:02.000 Maybe not quite as liberal as Charlotte. 134 05:02.000 --> 05:05.000 See, my home is Memphis, Tennessee. 135 05:05.000 --> 05:05.000 Yeah. Near Mississippi. 136 05:05.000 --> 05:06.000 Right. 137 05:06.000 --> 05:06.000 Yeah. So— 138 05:06.000 --> 05:10.000 Can you recall any racial incidents that you may have been faced with? 139 05:10.000 --> 05:12.000 You mean, back there, or here? 140 05:12.000 --> 05:12.000 Back there. 141 05:12.000 --> 05:16.000 Back there. And then, maybe in comparison with here? 142 05:16.000 --> 05:20.000 Oh. Yeah. A guy ran into the back of my car. And the highway patrolman came up and said, "Y'all each want to fix your own?" He hit me from the rear. It's true. Just like that. 143 05:20.000 --> 05:29.000 Man. 144 05:29.000 --> 05:32.000 And he said, "Each one of you, fix your own cars." Now, isn't that true? 145 05:32.000 --> 05:33.000 But then, you see— 146 05:33.000 --> 05:35.000 True story. 147 05:35.000 --> 05:40.000 —you did not contest that, you just let that go. Because you knew that if you did, you would be in big trouble. 148 05:40.000 --> 05:43.000 You would've ended up paying a big fine and one thing and another. 149 05:43.000 --> 05:49.000 And maybe you'd be taken out and lynched. You know? If you confront and— 150 05:49.000 --> 05:49.000 Well, not quite. But that's the kind of thing. 151 05:49.000 --> 05:50.000 —Yeah. 152 05:50.000 --> 06:00.000 Where, after he looked at his car and looked at mine. And, "Well, weren't you about ready to stop or something?" made up some nonsense like that. Like, "No. He just ran into the back of me." 153 06:00.000 --> 06:03.000 Mm-hmm. But, now— 154 06:03.000 --> 06:06.000 That's just the one incident I'll always remember— 155 06:06.000 --> 06:07.000 —Remember that. Yeah. 156 06:07.000 --> 06:10.000 —before coming here. 157 06:10.000 --> 06:14.000 Yeah? Were there any people, that would contest these things, that you all knew? 158 06:14.000 --> 06:14.000 Yeah. And they'd lose. 159 06:14.000 --> 06:14.000 Mm-hmm. 160 06:14.000 --> 06:14.000 Lose in the courts. 161 06:14.000 --> 06:20.000 Yeah? 162 06:20.000 --> 06:22.000 Yeah. And ran the risk of— 163 06:22.000 --> 06:23.000 Losing their job. 164 06:23.000 --> 06:27.000 —Right. And that was possible. 165 06:27.000 --> 06:31.000 If you're a teacher, probably get you on public money. And [indistinct 00:06:31], like I was. 166 06:31.000 --> 06:39.000 So you were intimidated, to a great extent, to accept the status quo. 167 06:39.000 --> 06:39.000 Right. 168 06:39.000 --> 06:49.000 You feared for your life, sometimes. You feared for your security. And your feared for your—By that, I mean, your good jobs. 169 06:49.000 --> 06:49.000 Right. 170 06:49.000 --> 06:54.000 And just your wellbeing. So, as we said, we tried to just it, as much as possible. 171 06:54.000 --> 06:55.000 Avoid it? 172 06:55.000 --> 06:57.000 Right. 173 06:57.000 --> 07:07.000 And part of the community of a Black college, you really have a, and just like my wife my said, you have a social language in yourself. 174 07:07.000 --> 07:09.000 Right. 175 07:09.000 --> 07:53.000 You [indistinct 00:07:10], until you're getting ready to purchase something. I remember one incident here that really upset me. I was walking through the—Was going to buy some tires. And the tires were in the paper one way and went down there, said I wanted a set of tires, and he brought some other tires out. I said, "Well, this is the one that I told you that I want, the one you got advertised here." "Well, they just as good as the other," or something like that. And I said, "But that isn't what I asked you for." "Well, you want to make something out of it?" "I'm the one, I'm buying." He tried to sell me something, other than what I want, he said I'm making something out of it. That's, I really felt like, that was the first time I'd really—I didn't want to run into anything, I had a job here. 176 07:53.000 --> 07:55.000 Right. 177 07:55.000 --> 07:59.000 And so, I finally went over to see the guy over here, who owned that place, too, about it. 178 07:59.000 --> 08:03.000 Mm-hmm. Oh. Reagan Roberts. 179 08:03.000 --> 08:04.000 Reagan's. Mm-hmm. 180 08:04.000 --> 08:09.000 You said they were a city within itself, almost, the Black community? 181 08:09.000 --> 08:09.000 Oh. Yeah. That's true. The Black college journey in the south. 182 08:09.000 --> 08:09.000 Yes. Uh-huh. [indistinct 00:08:11]— 183 08:09.000 --> 08:09.000 What would you do for entertainment. 184 08:09.000 --> 08:14.000 Oh. We had- 185 08:14.000 --> 08:16.000 —We had the nicest parties. 186 08:16.000 --> 08:17.000 —Yes. 187 08:17.000 --> 08:17.000 Dances on the weekends. 188 08:17.000 --> 08:20.000 Yeah? 189 08:20.000 --> 08:35.000 And house parties, go to each other's homes. And everybody, you played cards. And, as I said, we socialized. 190 08:35.000 --> 08:35.000 Right. 191 08:35.000 --> 08:35.000 Yeah. It was a community. You said it just right, "A community, within a community." 192 08:35.000 --> 08:37.000 Yeah. 193 08:37.000 --> 08:42.000 This is true of the Black colleges, generally, in the south. 194 08:42.000 --> 08:46.000 And I think that even in, if it's not a college town, a Black community finds itself. 195 08:46.000 --> 08:46.000 Yeah. 196 08:46.000 --> 09:14.000 Finds ways to revive for themselves. That's why you have a little corner grocery store, so you don't have to go shopping at the supermarket. You have your own little dry cleaner's, a little business. Oh. You see, Black businesses flourished, to an extent. 197 09:14.000 --> 09:14.000 Do you remember any of them from the '50s? 198 09:14.000 --> 09:14.000 From the '50s? 199 09:14.000 --> 09:14.000 Incidents, you mean? 200 09:14.000 --> 09:14.000 No. 201 09:14.000 --> 09:14.000 No. The stores. 202 09:14.000 --> 09:14.000 Businesses. 203 09:14.000 --> 09:14.000 The Black owned businesses? 204 09:14.000 --> 09:22.000 Oh. Yes. We had a dentist downtown. Dr. Camel's office was down on Adams Street, which he—They finally moved him out. 205 09:22.000 --> 09:23.000 Yes. Mm-hmm. Black dentist. 206 09:23.000 --> 09:24.000 Right downtown. 207 09:24.000 --> 09:27.000 But that's just where Mrs. Howell was talking about, Frenchtown. 208 09:27.000 --> 09:27.000 Right. Frenchtown. 209 09:27.000 --> 09:27.000 It was in that [indistinct 00:09:29]— 210 09:27.000 --> 09:27.000 Well, he was right on Adams, there. 211 09:27.000 --> 09:27.000 So you all would frequent Frenchtown? 212 09:27.000 --> 09:38.000 —Yes. Right. 213 09:38.000 --> 09:38.000 Well, just a little bit. 214 09:38.000 --> 09:38.000 Uh-huh. 215 09:38.000 --> 09:38.000 Yes. 216 09:38.000 --> 10:01.000 But then, there was a little nightclub that was right down here on Osceola Street, we used to go to. Didn't like it too much because it was a little bit noisy. But so, that's what a community does, it makes its own provisions, through its own businesses and its own circles. And, of course, the Black church was always there. 217 10:01.000 --> 10:02.000 Right. 218 10:02.000 --> 10:03.000 Although, we are Catholics. And— 219 10:03.000 --> 10:07.000 We had a Black Catholic Church, on the campus. 220 10:07.000 --> 10:11.000 —Yeah. We have a Black Catholic Church on campus. 221 10:11.000 --> 10:12.000 Not really a Black church, but it's the Student Center. 222 10:12.000 --> 10:13.000 Student Center. 223 10:13.000 --> 10:14.000 Oh. Yeah. 224 10:14.000 --> 10:15.000 So we went over therapy. 225 10:15.000 --> 10:15.000 But before the Student Center, we'll tell him about going to the- 226 10:15.000 --> 10:19.000 The one, used to be downtown? 227 10:19.000 --> 10:23.000 —the church downtown. 228 10:23.000 --> 10:33.000 Yeah. They had one of the, even the Catholic Church, which has never had any non-admission policy, it's supposed to for everybody, but they did. But she did try to put on the back row, back two rows. 229 10:33.000 --> 10:34.000 Oh. Yeah? 230 10:34.000 --> 10:34.000 Yes. So we sat— 231 10:34.000 --> 10:34.000 If you would do it, but I— 232 10:34.000 --> 10:34.000 In the church? 233 10:34.000 --> 10:38.000 —Mm-hmm. In the church. 234 10:38.000 --> 10:45.000 —Yeah. But I told him to, "Move out the way, fellow," and I walked on upfront. 235 10:45.000 --> 10:45.000 Uh-huh. 236 10:45.000 --> 10:45.000 Hmm? 237 10:45.000 --> 10:45.000 They did have us— 238 10:45.000 --> 10:45.000 Us try to do that. 239 10:45.000 --> 10:45.000 —Yeah. 240 10:45.000 --> 10:47.000 Right. 241 10:47.000 --> 10:49.000 Because it was generally segregating everywhere else. 242 10:49.000 --> 10:51.000 Uh-huh. To see if you— 243 10:51.000 --> 11:03.000 You couldn't even get in the Protestant churches. At least, Catholic Church, you can. It's never been segregated, even in the deep south. But that's the kind of thing you'd have to suffer, some indignity. 244 11:03.000 --> 11:04.000 Right. 245 11:04.000 --> 11:26.000 Especially, here, now, in Virginia, where I went to prep school. And back in the '30s, there was a law in Virginia, they knew about the Catholic Church, and so they said, "The Whites should sit on one side," this was a law. "And Blacks on the other." But this military school, of course, we occupied all the pews upfront, on each side. We went in two-by-two. But in the back, where the people from the community in— 246 11:26.000 --> 11:30.000 —People from the community? 247 11:30.000 --> 11:36.000 —the Whites would tend to sit on the right side and the Blacks on the left, but they didn't pay too much attention to that. 248 11:36.000 --> 11:52.000 Hmm? Okay. Do you remember, just any stories that your parents may have told about life, during their time, and segregation, that may have come down through your family? 249 11:52.000 --> 11:52.000 Of course. 250 11:52.000 --> 11:57.000 Or to go even further, any stories about slavery. 251 11:57.000 --> 12:12.000 No. Nothing like that. But we have lived through complete segregation, okay? And we've seen this great change in America. 252 12:12.000 --> 12:12.000 Right. 253 12:12.000 --> 12:12.000 So— 254 12:12.000 --> 12:12.000 What he's talking about, you'll— 255 12:12.000 --> 12:12.000 —But I'm thinking about when I was a child— 256 12:12.000 --> 12:12.000 —Your parents. Yeah. 257 12:12.000 --> 12:17.000 —Yeah. Blowing Rock and Monroe. Sure, we had all—Yeah. We suffered indignities. 258 12:17.000 --> 12:19.000 But, stories? I can't remember the stories. 259 12:19.000 --> 12:32.000 Well, all right. I remember one, in which there was a highway, in which they were making some outside [indistinct 00:12:28], where they was building a bridge or something. 260 12:32.000 --> 12:32.000 Mm-hmm. 261 12:32.000 --> 12:42.000 And they had a team of mules there. And they knew the cars would have to be pulled through. And so, when Daddy drove in there, they pulled him out and then charged him $5.00. They didn't charge anybody else. 262 12:42.000 --> 12:45.000 Mm-mm. To— 263 12:45.000 --> 12:51.000 The city had put these people there to pull. But here's a Black family, "Now, all right. It's $5.00." 264 12:51.000 --> 12:51.000 Hmm? 265 12:51.000 --> 12:52.000 True story. 266 12:52.000 --> 12:52.000 —But everybody else— 267 12:52.000 --> 12:52.000 But everybody else didn't have to pay? 268 12:52.000 --> 12:56.000 No. He was just supposed to pull him out. And pull him— 269 12:56.000 --> 13:03.000 I know. And I said, but nobody else was charged— 270 13:03.000 --> 13:03.000 —No. 271 13:03.000 --> 13:03.000 —except your family. 272 13:03.000 --> 13:03.000 So that's a real story. 273 13:03.000 --> 13:03.000 Damn. 274 13:03.000 --> 13:11.000 Ain't nothing to do, but pay it, back in those days. And I'm talking about, I was just a kid, then, maybe seven, eight, years of age. 275 13:11.000 --> 13:21.000 No. I don't have any of those great stories, like Mrs. Howell has. She had some great ones to talk about. 276 13:21.000 --> 13:56.000 Oh. I remember, too, up in Blowing Rock once, where they were looking for a Black person, was supposed to have been escaped from prison or somewhere. And since we were the only Black family in town, up at the old summer resort, we were the only Blacks that owned a home there, the police and deputies went up there and slammed on their brakes and ran to the house, and knocked on it, saying, "We're looking for so-and-so and so-and-so. A Negro, who is Negro." They would never say, the White, "Nigger, who escaped from the penitentiary," or something. And so, the fellow just kind of pushes me on in. And went back, and looking under beds, and all that. 277 13:56.000 --> 13:56.000 Mm-hmm. 278 13:56.000 --> 14:03.000 I said, "We haven't told you to—" "Well, we was looking for an escaped convict." 279 14:03.000 --> 14:09.000 Oh. Okay. 280 14:09.000 --> 14:09.000 That's a true story. Went looking under our beds, in our house. 281 14:09.000 --> 14:09.000 Mm-hmm. That's when— 282 14:09.000 --> 14:09.000 But that was, what I'm talking about, in the '20s. 283 14:09.000 --> 14:12.000 —Yeah. That was when you were about seven, eight, or nine. 284 14:12.000 --> 14:15.000 And they assumed that, because we was the only Black family in town— 285 14:15.000 --> 14:15.000 That that's where the Black convict would go. 286 14:15.000 --> 14:15.000 —that he'd come to our house, to hide. (laughing) 287 14:15.000 --> 14:22.000 Yeah. 288 14:22.000 --> 14:28.000 Do you remember any accounts of the KKK ever coming through. 289 14:28.000 --> 14:35.000 No. No. No. I never bumped into them. Thank God. 290 14:35.000 --> 14:36.000 No. And not that I remember in Tennessee, either. 291 14:36.000 --> 14:41.000 No, but they were around. 292 14:41.000 --> 14:41.000 Yeah. 293 14:41.000 --> 14:44.000 Except that, by that time, they were fading out in the mid-south— 294 14:44.000 --> 14:45.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. 295 14:45.000 --> 14:54.000 —When we were growing up, too, openly. The recent marches, around here, that's a joke, more or less. But back in those days, it was no joke, in the '20s. 296 14:54.000 --> 14:56.000 Right. 297 14:56.000 --> 15:05.000 But when they have these parades now, it's a joke, as far as the Blacks and the liberal Whites are concerned, they laugh at them, and throw eggs at them, and everything else. 298 15:05.000 --> 15:06.000 Right. 299 15:06.000 --> 15:08.000 Which, you dare not do, back in the '20s. 300 15:08.000 --> 15:08.000 Hmm? 301 15:08.000 --> 15:09.000 [indistinct 00:15:10]. 302 15:09.000 --> 15:15.000 Mm-hmm. Oh. Yeah. 303 15:15.000 --> 15:18.000 Or tried to. They didn't have anybody there, or something. 304 15:18.000 --> 15:21.000 Right. The doctors didn't want to sell her medicine, or something. 305 15:21.000 --> 15:33.000 Yeah. Now, this is a liberal town and a city, now, of 130,000. But only 26 miles from here, 130,000 population. And it's a very liberal because it's a university town, we had Florida State University with 30,000 students. 306 15:33.000 --> 15:38.000 Well, let's say, it's getting more liberal, as the time passes. 307 15:38.000 --> 15:38.000 Oh. Yes. Yes. And people are— 308 15:38.000 --> 15:40.000 It has not always been. 309 15:40.000 --> 15:41.000 —I'm saying, now. I was talking about now. 310 15:41.000 --> 15:41.000 Yeah. You're talking about in 1994. 311 15:41.000 --> 15:41.000 Yeah. 312 15:41.000 --> 15:42.000 But, when we were here- 313 15:42.000 --> 15:49.000 Now, it's a fine place. Well, we told him about the incidents. 314 15:49.000 --> 15:54.000 —Yeah. But, also, FSU was over there and FAMU was over here. 315 15:54.000 --> 15:57.000 Oh. There was a division between the schools? 316 15:57.000 --> 16:01.000 Oh. You know? They had the White university on the other hill. And then our, FAMU, here. 317 16:01.000 --> 16:01.000 Well, you couldn't go to school over there, that's for sure. 318 16:01.000 --> 16:01.000 Couldn't go to school over there. And— 319 16:01.000 --> 16:06.000 Okay. 320 16:06.000 --> 16:10.000 Or in the—The first Blacks attended in the late '60s. 321 16:10.000 --> 16:10.000 Oh. Yeah? 322 16:10.000 --> 16:11.000 —and after—Yeah. 323 16:11.000 --> 16:13.000 We'll say, you were one of the first students over there. 324 16:13.000 --> 16:14.000 And then, after the— 325 16:14.000 --> 16:16.000 Yeah? 326 16:16.000 --> 16:21.000 Yeah. She was one of the first students at Florida State, to just taking part-time, non-degree courses. 327 16:21.000 --> 16:24.000 How was that past experience? 328 16:24.000 --> 16:24.000 —It was fine. It was all right. 329 16:24.000 --> 16:24.000 Yeah? 330 16:24.000 --> 16:24.000 Well, the people over there, the professors, are fine. 331 16:24.000 --> 16:30.000 Hmm? 332 16:30.000 --> 16:34.000 At least, I didn't run into anything. And sometimes, I think, because I am fair, light-skinned— 333 16:34.000 --> 16:34.000 Right. 334 16:34.000 --> 16:34.000 —I have a—I sort of blend in. 335 16:34.000 --> 16:43.000 Right. Right. Right. 336 16:43.000 --> 16:43.000 And so, I don't—I'm not a threat. 337 16:43.000 --> 16:43.000 It's not obvious. 338 16:43.000 --> 16:43.000 Mm-hmm. 339 16:43.000 --> 16:46.000 Huh? 340 16:46.000 --> 16:48.000 I says, there's no obvious— 341 16:48.000 --> 16:48.000 Yes. And see, so therefore, I'm not a threat. 342 16:48.000 --> 16:54.000 —thing about being Black. Some of them, sometimes, don't even recognize who you are. 343 16:54.000 --> 16:58.000 But if you're your complexion and you stand out, then it can be a little different. 344 16:58.000 --> 16:58.000 Oh. Yes. 345 16:58.000 --> 16:58.000 I think it was, for some [indistinct 00:17:02]— 346 16:58.000 --> 16:58.000 And you took English under— 347 16:58.000 --> 17:11.000 —Under Dr. Yost. 348 17:11.000 --> 17:19.000 —a person, as a—And, I think, I don't remember anybody going over there, before you did. And, of course, I think I made the arrangement, as the registrar for her at A&M, with the registrar over there. You know, he was talking about that the other day, can you believe that? 349 17:19.000 --> 17:19.000 Really? 350 17:19.000 --> 17:21.000 [indistinct 00:17:19] Walker. Yeah. Yeah. 351 17:21.000 --> 17:24.000 Yeah. Well— 352 17:24.000 --> 17:28.000 How was it, traveling throughout the south, let's say, in a car, during the 40s and 50s? 353 17:28.000 --> 17:31.000 Lord, it was something. 354 17:31.000 --> 17:39.000 40s and 50s? All right. You'd still be trailed a little bit by the highway patrol, a little longer than they would trail anybody else. 355 17:39.000 --> 17:40.000 Oh. Yeah? 356 17:40.000 --> 17:42.000 Mm-hmm. Oh. Yeah. And that might be going on to this day, even. You know? 357 17:42.000 --> 17:45.000 Right. 358 17:45.000 --> 17:47.000 They might trail you a little bit longer. 359 17:47.000 --> 17:48.000 How about gas stations and [indistinct 00:17:49]— 360 17:48.000 --> 17:48.000 Oh. Yeah. 361 17:48.000 --> 17:50.000 Oh. Right. The gas stations- 362 17:50.000 --> 17:53.000 Yeah. We chose those extremely carefully. 363 17:53.000 --> 17:54.000 —And you had to be—Yeah. 364 17:54.000 --> 18:05.000 —Folks that— 365 18:05.000 --> 18:06.000 —How did you choose? 366 18:06.000 --> 18:22.000 Well, you'd hope there would be a little meter and maybe wouldn't be—It'd be a little closer to a town. You certainly wouldn't choose one that was out in the rural areas. And you'd try to get one in town. And you'd hope there would be a major service station, like and Exxon or an Amico [indistinct 00:18:20] had a Gulf. 367 18:22.000 --> 18:25.000 And, also, their restrooms were, "Men," "Women," and, "Colored." 368 18:25.000 --> 18:30.000 Mm-hmm. You're right. 369 18:30.000 --> 18:30.000 So the, Colored men and women used the "Colored"— 370 18:30.000 --> 18:31.000 Right. Men and women. 371 18:31.000 --> 18:31.000 Yeah. 372 18:31.000 --> 18:31.000 Men and women was the, "Colored." 373 18:31.000 --> 18:31.000 Yeah. We had unisex bathrooms, back then. You've seen those in Mr. Eaton's. 374 18:31.000 --> 18:38.000 Right. In Mr. Professor Eaton's, right. 375 18:38.000 --> 19:00.000 And then, after that was ruled out, by law, they had this, "Out of Order," when you come there, it's, "Out of Order," signs. Well, we knew then not to buy any gas, until we checked the restrooms. If the restrooms were okay, we would drive up there and say, "You got a restroom." When they'd tell you, "They're out of order," we'd just say, "Well, thank you." And we go on out of there. 376 19:00.000 --> 19:02.000 Yeah. That's the way we would handle that. 377 19:02.000 --> 19:09.000 This is the way Blacks have learned to beat the system, after trying to beat that segregated system. 378 19:09.000 --> 19:13.000 Now, of course, we used the woods for our bathrooms— 379 19:13.000 --> 19:13.000 Right. 380 19:13.000 --> 19:18.000 —to a certain extent. 381 19:18.000 --> 19:19.000 And that was driving to— 382 19:19.000 --> 19:21.000 Wherever we went. 383 19:21.000 --> 19:25.000 —Memphis and Mississippi. 384 19:25.000 --> 19:25.000 Yeah. 385 19:25.000 --> 19:28.000 We had a spot, in between— 386 19:28.000 --> 19:28.000 Oh. You had a spot, you would consistently stop at? 387 19:28.000 --> 19:32.000 Yeah. 388 19:32.000 --> 19:36.000 —Between Tuscaloosa, Alabama and Columbus, Mississippi— 389 19:36.000 --> 19:37.000 That sounds right. 390 19:37.000 --> 19:42.000 —where we always stopped. 391 19:42.000 --> 19:42.000 Oh. Yeah? 392 19:42.000 --> 19:49.000 Because I stopped at his place in Columbus, Mississippi, and the guy handed me a can and said, "You can go down in the back there, somewhere." 393 19:49.000 --> 19:49.000 Really? 394 19:49.000 --> 19:55.000 Handed me a can to urinate in. And this was a Black guy, who was working there. He knew that we couldn't use the restroom. 395 19:55.000 --> 19:58.000 He knew. Mm-hmm. 396 19:58.000 --> 19:59.000 He says, "Here's an oil can," he said, "Go down, around the back, there." 397 19:59.000 --> 20:02.000 Right. Hmm? 398 20:02.000 --> 20:05.000 But we, as Annette said, every— 399 20:05.000 --> 20:06.000 And getting the children to— 400 20:06.000 --> 20:14.000 —two or three years, we knew this place, we'd always stop in the woods. 401 20:14.000 --> 20:14.000