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Well, thank you so much for agreeing to do this, Emily.
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We're now recording.
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Could you please say your full name?
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Emily S. Wiggers.
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Okay, thank you, and are you lay or clergy?
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I'm lay.
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Good.
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And what is your denominational affiliation, if any?
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Presbyterian Church USA.
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Thank you.
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And, Emily, where and when were you born?
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I was born Cape Girardeau, Missouri.
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August the 12th, 1937.
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Oh, thank you very much.
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And, Emily, where did you go to school?
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Well, I went all through elementary and high school
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in the Cape Girardeau school district.
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I went to college at Southeast Missouri
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State University in Cape Girardeau.
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I graduated from there.
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Since then, I have done some graduate work
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at Lewis and Clark College in our area,
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and I was taking some classes at Eden Seminary.
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Oh, neat.
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And what is your graduate work related to?
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My original graduate work was related
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to Early Childhood Education.
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Of course what I did at, and actually,
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what I did at Eden was more Christian Education related.
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Okay.
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And, interestingly, we have a son
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who's a Christian Education
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PhD professor at a local seminary.
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Oh, really (laughs) oh, that's great.
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Teaching tends to run in our family.
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It sounds like the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
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Right? (laughs)
Right.
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That's wonderful.
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So, Emily, what work or ministry were you doing
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at the time of Re-Imagining?
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That was '93 through 2003.
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I think, no, I was,
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I think I was still serving Presbyterian Women,
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but would have also been,
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all of this time runs together and it's been a while.
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I was serving Presbyterian Women at that time,
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and then I went on the Ecumenical Decade
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Churches in Solidarity with Women,
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joined with the Women's Ministry Unit.
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I got involved in the Women's Ministry Unit
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because of, that was part of my portfolio
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as vice moderator of Presbyterian Women.
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So I was serving with the Women's Ministry Unit,
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and also worked some with Women Employed by the Church.
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Okay, that's interesting.
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Would you mind, just saying a little bit about
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what responsibilities were associated
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with those positions, what did they mean?
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Well, the biggest issue probably was
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trying to have connections and cooperation
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between Presbyterian Women, which was a brand new
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organization at that point in time.
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I served when it first came about,
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when the Northern and the Southern branches merged.
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And, (sighs) there,
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there were tensions.
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Not always bad tension, but (laughs) tension.
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Partly because we were living into a new organization,
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and the PC USA was also living somewhat into
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a new organization with all of the various ministry units.
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And my responsibility was to carry the communication
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back and forth between Presbyterian Women
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and the Women's Ministry Unit,
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Women Employed by the Church,
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and to be very honest, in some respect,
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I found my relationship with the Women's Ministry
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almost stronger than with Presbyterian Women.
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At that point in time, we were trying to,
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Women's Ministry was trying to
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be broader than just the local church organizations.
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And there was some resistance to that. (laughs)
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Could you say more about what the resistance was about?
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I think the resistance was,
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it came,
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I'm not sure it's fair to say,
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it came primarily from the Southern stream.
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That's kind of the way it felt to me,
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but then, I came from the Northern stream.
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They wanted to be sure they continued to have control.
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The PW wanted to have control,
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and
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yet, be part of the larger church.
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I'm sorry, who wanted to have control?
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The Women, the Presbyterian Women
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wanted to be autonomous and have control,
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and yet at the same time, be part of the larger church.
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And sometimes what the larger church was recommending,
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or suggesting, or wanting to move in that direction,
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didn't sit well with all of the people
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in Presbyterian Women.
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They felt like they were losing some control.
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Okay.
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It was just, it sounds kind of negative.
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I want to counter by saying,
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I think some of it was just growing pains.
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It was a brand new organization.
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Sure, and trying to figure out how this is gonna work.
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Yeah, okay, that's helpful.
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So you were kind of a liaison in a way,
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between Presbyterian Women, Women's Ministries,
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and Women Employed by the Church.
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Got it, okay, that's great.
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How did you first become aware of Feminist theology?
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Do you recall that?
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Well. (laughs)
(laughs)
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I've been pondering that question.
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Feminist theology per se, probably in the early '80s.
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But looking back,
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I grew up in a very egalitarian home.
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Didn't know it at the time. (laughs)
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But interestingly enough, some of my friends knew it.
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No, they didn't know it was egalitarian.
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They knew it was different.
Yeah.
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But, so, I had always
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seen things a little bit more equal,
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probably, as far as the pastors were concerned.
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They had many people my age.
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Yes.
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Which you know, I'm approaching 80.
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(laughs)
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That was very unusual for that era.
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Yeah.
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I didn't know it.
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Of course. (laughs)
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But then in the early '80s,
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I began to hear things about,
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I wanna say the feminine thing.
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The feminine side of God.
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Yeah.
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It didn't come as any shock to me at all.
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I guess, in some respects, I had always
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kind of known that at a deeper level,
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but it had never been articulated.
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So it was really in the early '80s that I began to see.
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And it was the real language primarily.
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And where were you getting this language from?
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These images?
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Probably first got it from,
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the images from Johanna Bos.
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Yes?
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Our son was a seminary student at the time, and, I,
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Johanna spoke at a PW gathering, (laughs)
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I hope I'm coming up with the right course of time,
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you know, it's been a long time.
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Oh, of course.
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She spoke at a Presbyterian Women's gathering,
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an area one,
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that would be actually I think before we became,
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it was before we became Presbyterian Women,
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it would have been a PW gathering.
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And she talked about the various,
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the differences in language,
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and how it opened up the images, the image of God,
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or how it opened up how we viewed God.
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And that was probably my first exposure,
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and it was quite controversial, as you can imagine.
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And not for me.
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For me it was,
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a-ha, this is where I've always been,
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but that's not where everybody was.
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Everybody at that meeting.
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Some people reacted against it at that meeting?
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Right, right.
Yeah, yeah.
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Great.
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So that was, does that answer your question
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about the beginning?
It did.
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And I would say from that point on,
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it's grown in a variety of ways.
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And certainly when the two
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women's organizations became Presbyterian Women.
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The language was, I will have to say,
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they were really good about,
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well, the organization was,
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we were very conscious of using good inclusive language.
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And then of course there was Izzie's book.
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Izzie Rogers' book on,
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I can't remember the name of the book,
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but it was about inclusive language.
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I would say from the early '80s on, it just grew.
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And PW did try very hard to use inclusive language.
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There was still some resistance,
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I'm not gonna lie, to women,
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you know, God was Father, and,
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there were no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
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(laughs)
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That's very helpful, Emily.
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That is great.
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I wonder if we can move to the Re-Imagining community,
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and if you could talk some about some about
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your relationship to the Re-Imagining community.
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How did you first get involved?
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Well,
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at that point, I guess I was on the Ecumenical Decade,
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Churches in Solidarity with Women.
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And Mary Ann Lundy was I think
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part of the Minnesota committee.
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And so because of her involvement,
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the Churches in Solidarity,
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or the Ecumenical Decade committee,
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was invited to come to Minneapolis,
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at least once and I think twice,
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I just don't remember for sure,
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to help in the planning of the event.
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And then because of Mary Ann's involvement,
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and because of my involvement in the Ecumenical Decade,
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we became, for lack of another word,
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kind of a sounding board, an advisory group.
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Sometimes they would run ideas past us for our reactions,
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because we possibly represented the wider church.
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When you say they, just to clarify,
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was that the planning group
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in Minneapolis that was doing this?
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Yes, yes.
Right, got it.
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And, Emily, this is an important part of the story,
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do you have, I know it's been a long time,
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do you have any memories of what that was like,
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working with this group, or what that process was like?
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Well, it was, I found it,
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I'm looking for the right word.
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Exciting and encouraging.
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Mind-expanding.
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Theologically expanding.
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Could you say a little bit more
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about what was exciting about it?
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Well, some of it was about just listing
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so many aspects of women's gifts,
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and women in leadership, and,
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exploring theology from a Feminist perspective.
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Although I'd been into a lot of language issues,
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which certainly were Feminist,
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I hadn't really had the experience
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of looking deeper into the theological
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issues around women, and how,
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how biblical,
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how you could read biblical stories
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from a Feminist perspective.
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And just so I--
I'm a woman. (laughs)
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Go 'head, this is great, Emily.
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I was just, was this happening during the planning process,
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these issues were coming up?
During what, I'm sorry.
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Oh, I'm sorry, sure.
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During the planning process, were these issues coming up?
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Probably. (laughs)
(laughs)
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Oh, you're testing my memory.
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I know, I know, I understand.
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That's a good thing.
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(laughs)
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Yeah, I'm sure they were.
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I don't have,
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I can't name specific instances,
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but the fact that this is what I'm remembering,
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tells me, yes, it had to have.
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That's exactly right.
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And a lot of times I think,
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I can work out the details later,
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but your impressions and memories are really important,
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'cause that's what's important.
268
00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:28.389
That's what you remember, right? (laughs)
269
00:16:28.389 --> 00:16:29.996
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
270
00:16:29.996 --> 00:16:32.589
So you went to the '93 conference.
271
00:16:32.589 --> 00:16:34.060
You mentioned you might have gone to one or two more,
272
00:16:34.060 --> 00:16:37.102
but let's focus on the '93 one.
273
00:16:37.102 --> 00:16:39.352
What was that like for you?
274
00:16:43.852 --> 00:16:46.269
Well, it was very exciting.
275
00:16:49.042 --> 00:16:50.459
It was also very,
276
00:16:56.170 --> 00:16:59.170
mind-stretching, it was challenging.
277
00:17:05.141 --> 00:17:07.058
It stirred my thinking,
278
00:17:11.601 --> 00:17:14.934
in some very exciting and positive ways,
279
00:17:16.014 --> 00:17:17.431
and in some ways,
280
00:17:20.395 --> 00:17:21.228
hmm.
281
00:17:21.228 --> 00:17:23.203
(laughs)
282
00:17:23.203 --> 00:17:26.946
I wouldn't say negative, I'd just say, hmm.
283
00:17:26.946 --> 00:17:29.583
Yeah, now that's interesting.
284
00:17:29.583 --> 00:17:32.300
Do you remember what were some of the exciting ways,
285
00:17:32.300 --> 00:17:36.167
and what were some of the hmm ways? (laughs)
286
00:17:36.167 --> 00:17:38.584
Well, I think the hmm ways,
287
00:17:41.986 --> 00:17:44.486
I particularly remember around
288
00:17:46.066 --> 00:17:48.983
Delores Williams and the atonement,
289
00:17:50.391 --> 00:17:53.783
and of course that's one of the things that
290
00:17:53.783 --> 00:17:56.289
got blown way out of proportion.
291
00:17:56.289 --> 00:17:57.843
(laughs)
Yes.
292
00:17:57.843 --> 00:17:59.176
But that piece
293
00:18:02.568 --> 00:18:04.151
was very new to me,
294
00:18:06.795 --> 00:18:10.962
particularly, from the black theology perspective.
295
00:18:12.044 --> 00:18:12.877
Right.
296
00:18:16.409 --> 00:18:17.242
Not,
297
00:18:21.183 --> 00:18:22.791
I started to say not mind-blowing,
298
00:18:22.791 --> 00:18:26.125
yeah, in a way it was. (laughs)
299
00:18:26.125 --> 00:18:29.375
It was mind-blowing but it was the hmm,
300
00:18:31.273 --> 00:18:34.773
I'd never thought about that, and it took,
301
00:18:36.043 --> 00:18:39.461
because it was so nontraditional,
302
00:18:39.461 --> 00:18:42.961
it took some time to sort through, digest.
303
00:18:46.551 --> 00:18:47.384
Sure.
304
00:18:50.900 --> 00:18:53.084
And I think to some degree, it still does.
305
00:18:53.084 --> 00:18:56.008
I mean, that's not a bad thing.
306
00:18:56.008 --> 00:18:57.258
Right, mm-hm.
307
00:18:58.636 --> 00:19:00.989
Are there are other things,
308
00:19:00.989 --> 00:19:03.386
memories you have of it, things that you found
309
00:19:03.386 --> 00:19:07.043
particularly exciting or striking in some way?
310
00:19:07.043 --> 00:19:10.293
I found it very exciting to be a part
311
00:19:14.953 --> 00:19:17.786
of a group of women who were so on
312
00:19:23.576 --> 00:19:25.243
the cutting edge of,
313
00:19:27.959 --> 00:19:30.792
not just theology, but of society.
314
00:19:33.975 --> 00:19:37.725
It was the beginning to some degree of being,
315
00:19:42.125 --> 00:19:45.458
affirming the gay and lesbian community.
316
00:19:47.604 --> 00:19:49.910
And that was exciting to me.
317
00:19:49.910 --> 00:19:51.600
A little bit scary at times,
318
00:19:51.600 --> 00:19:55.132
but all of this was like. (gulps)
319
00:19:55.132 --> 00:19:57.893
(laughing)
320
00:19:57.893 --> 00:19:59.393
But I find,
Yeah.
321
00:20:00.570 --> 00:20:01.487
you know,
322
00:20:03.238 --> 00:20:07.155
all of these people that are different from me,
323
00:20:11.388 --> 00:20:13.858
have just as much faith as I do.
324
00:20:13.858 --> 00:20:16.574
They have gifts to give to the church,
325
00:20:16.574 --> 00:20:19.157
to the world, to the community,
326
00:20:20.852 --> 00:20:23.976
and I found that very exciting.
327
00:20:23.976 --> 00:20:27.565
That was really well-put, thank you, Emily. (laughs)
328
00:20:27.565 --> 00:20:31.858
Contrary to (laughs) to other people.
329
00:20:31.858 --> 00:20:33.174
Yes, yes.
330
00:20:33.174 --> 00:20:35.111
I wanted to make sure I understood.
331
00:20:35.111 --> 00:20:36.261
Now, you were there,
332
00:20:36.261 --> 00:20:38.448
were you there in any official capacity?
333
00:20:38.448 --> 00:20:39.937
Or were you there just as a participant?
334
00:20:39.937 --> 00:20:41.667
What was your role there?
335
00:20:41.667 --> 00:20:45.311
I was there basically as a participant.
336
00:20:45.311 --> 00:20:49.394
And a participant because of my involvement with,
337
00:20:50.412 --> 00:20:52.511
peripheral involvement with planning
338
00:20:52.511 --> 00:20:54.448
through the Decade committee.
339
00:20:54.448 --> 00:20:57.324
So it was not in official capacity.
340
00:20:57.324 --> 00:20:58.767
Sure, yeah.
341
00:20:58.767 --> 00:20:59.600
Well...
342
00:21:05.602 --> 00:21:08.197
No, it really wasn't official capacity,
343
00:21:08.197 --> 00:21:12.237
however, I was representing Presbyterian Women,
344
00:21:12.237 --> 00:21:14.327
now that I think about it.
345
00:21:14.327 --> 00:21:18.860
I was doing so many of these things kind of simultaneously,
346
00:21:18.860 --> 00:21:21.360
and it's hard to say for sure.
347
00:21:22.509 --> 00:21:23.538
That makes sense.
348
00:21:23.538 --> 00:21:25.356
You were wearing many hats.
349
00:21:25.356 --> 00:21:28.980
I was wearing many hats, but most of those hats
350
00:21:28.980 --> 00:21:32.483
had come about as a result of Presbyterian Women.
351
00:21:32.483 --> 00:21:36.263
Yes, that makes sense, okay, yeah.
352
00:21:36.263 --> 00:21:38.673
Can we move to the backlash?
353
00:21:38.673 --> 00:21:39.506
Oh, yes.
354
00:21:39.506 --> 00:21:41.532
I'm sure you were aware of it.
355
00:21:41.532 --> 00:21:43.384
First of all. (laughs)
Oh, yeah.
356
00:21:43.384 --> 00:21:46.301
Were you directly affected by it?
357
00:21:47.946 --> 00:21:51.013
I was pondering that question too.
358
00:21:51.013 --> 00:21:53.013
Yes, in two ways, I was.
359
00:21:56.735 --> 00:21:58.568
And not horribly, but.
360
00:22:06.199 --> 00:22:08.199
The conference was over,
361
00:22:09.998 --> 00:22:14.165
and there was a small group of Presbyterian Women,
362
00:22:16.758 --> 00:22:19.601
and I honestly don't remember,
363
00:22:19.601 --> 00:22:22.518
but we were piggybacking a meeting,
364
00:22:26.507 --> 00:22:28.767
regarding Presbyterian Women,
365
00:22:28.767 --> 00:22:32.602
and I really don't remember what that meeting was,
366
00:22:32.602 --> 00:22:36.185
on the back of the Re-Imagining conference.
367
00:22:37.871 --> 00:22:40.788
There were about four or five of us
368
00:22:42.513 --> 00:22:45.680
that had been there at the conference,
369
00:22:46.594 --> 00:22:49.594
and then we were meeting afterwards.
370
00:22:51.722 --> 00:22:56.305
Most of the other women, at least a couple of 'em,
371
00:22:56.305 --> 00:22:59.472
were very disturbed by the conference.
372
00:23:02.458 --> 00:23:04.541
It had just gone too far.
373
00:23:07.414 --> 00:23:08.247
And,
374
00:23:09.595 --> 00:23:12.012
I was listening to this, and,
375
00:23:13.958 --> 00:23:16.924
I mean, some of that is backlash,
376
00:23:16.924 --> 00:23:21.486
but then the one woman, I remember this so vividly,
377
00:23:21.486 --> 00:23:25.387
looked at me, I had just been listening,
378
00:23:25.387 --> 00:23:29.554
and she said, "You're not threatened by this, are you?"
379
00:23:34.205 --> 00:23:36.550
Wow.
And I said,
380
00:23:36.550 --> 00:23:37.383
"No.
381
00:23:39.421 --> 00:23:40.254
"Are you?"
382
00:23:41.211 --> 00:23:43.211
And she said, "Oh, yes."
383
00:23:45.282 --> 00:23:47.503
And I said, "How?"
384
00:23:47.503 --> 00:23:50.170
And she could not articulate it.
385
00:23:51.978 --> 00:23:56.145
So that was one, I mean, that's a form of backlash.
386
00:23:57.617 --> 00:23:59.591
Emily, before we move on, I'm sorry.
387
00:23:59.591 --> 00:24:01.153
When you said they were disturbed by it,
388
00:24:01.153 --> 00:24:04.865
do you recall what specifically disturbed them?
389
00:24:04.865 --> 00:24:07.115
No, well, yes, yes, I do.
390
00:24:07.950 --> 00:24:12.463
It was primarily over the gay and lesbian issue.
391
00:24:12.463 --> 00:24:14.403
Mm-hm, mm-hm.
392
00:24:14.403 --> 00:24:17.041
I would say not totally but,
393
00:24:17.041 --> 00:24:19.208
that was a big part of it.
394
00:24:20.163 --> 00:24:21.830
They were not ready,
395
00:24:24.897 --> 00:24:26.949
they didn't seem to want,
396
00:24:26.949 --> 00:24:28.509
they couldn't articulate,
397
00:24:28.509 --> 00:24:32.215
but it was related to the gay and lesbian issue.
398
00:24:32.215 --> 00:24:34.132
Okay, that's helpful.
399
00:24:35.795 --> 00:24:36.823
And I interrupted you.
400
00:24:36.823 --> 00:24:38.962
What was the second thing you were gonna say?
401
00:24:38.962 --> 00:24:42.712
The second thing was, it had been two of us
402
00:24:44.558 --> 00:24:48.509
from this Presbytery, a very good friend of mine and I.
403
00:24:48.509 --> 00:24:51.433
She was there in a totally different capacity.
404
00:24:51.433 --> 00:24:53.850
But we had been to this, and,
405
00:24:55.015 --> 00:24:58.932
I came back and primarily got good support from
406
00:25:02.181 --> 00:25:06.049
the folks that we dealt with within the Presbytery.
407
00:25:06.049 --> 00:25:07.632
But then, and that,
408
00:25:09.867 --> 00:25:10.846
I guess I wasn't.
409
00:25:10.846 --> 00:25:13.164
I can't remember whether if I was moderator
410
00:25:13.164 --> 00:25:17.247
of the Presbytery at the time, don't think I was.
411
00:25:19.381 --> 00:25:22.024
And both of us, the other woman and I,
412
00:25:22.024 --> 00:25:24.212
had been in a covenant prayer group
413
00:25:24.212 --> 00:25:27.184
that met about once a month.
414
00:25:27.184 --> 00:25:28.017
And,
415
00:25:29.697 --> 00:25:33.906
then a pastor of one of the churches here
416
00:25:33.906 --> 00:25:37.775
was also part of that covenant group.
417
00:25:37.775 --> 00:25:40.608
And I was at a Presbytery meeting,
418
00:25:41.850 --> 00:25:45.850
walking down the hall, caught totally off guard,
419
00:25:47.609 --> 00:25:49.776
and was basically attacked
420
00:25:52.978 --> 00:25:54.895
by this pastor, saying,
421
00:25:56.629 --> 00:26:00.796
"You went to that awful Re-Imagining conference didn't you?"
422
00:26:02.665 --> 00:26:06.747
And I said, yes, and I said it was very good.
423
00:26:06.747 --> 00:26:09.997
"It was not, it was heretical, it was,"
424
00:26:10.990 --> 00:26:15.639
and he launched in, and I sorta interrupted him and said,
425
00:26:15.639 --> 00:26:18.139
"Well, you know, I was there."
426
00:26:19.166 --> 00:26:23.249
And he said, "I've listened to all of the tapes,"
427
00:26:24.854 --> 00:26:27.187
and just went into a tirade.
428
00:26:28.847 --> 00:26:31.930
Well, it obvious that anything I said
429
00:26:34.003 --> 00:26:35.920
wasn't going to matter.
430
00:26:37.696 --> 00:26:39.529
So I just walked away.
431
00:26:41.048 --> 00:26:44.798
But I lost so much respect for a person that,
432
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:49.211
and I think he probably lost respect for me too.
433
00:26:49.211 --> 00:26:50.861
Yes. (laughs)
434
00:26:50.861 --> 00:26:54.523
That's his problem. (laughs)
435
00:26:54.523 --> 00:26:58.690
I lost so much respect for somebody, that I had respected.
436
00:26:59.760 --> 00:27:03.832
He did not wish to hear anything I had to say.
437
00:27:03.832 --> 00:27:07.165
Now, I wasn't horribly offended by this,
438
00:27:10.228 --> 00:27:11.061
because I,
439
00:27:12.408 --> 00:27:14.842
a lot of other people got a lot worse backlash,
440
00:27:14.842 --> 00:27:17.925
like Mary Ann Lundy who lost her job.
441
00:27:19.567 --> 00:27:21.234
But I remembered it.
442
00:27:23.475 --> 00:27:25.058
And I lost respect.
443
00:27:27.177 --> 00:27:29.811
Those are the only instances where
444
00:27:29.811 --> 00:27:32.978
I personally experienced the backlash.
445
00:27:34.417 --> 00:27:37.834
Of course, I did within Women's Ministry,
446
00:27:38.712 --> 00:27:42.462
and it took a long time for Women's Ministry,
447
00:27:45.331 --> 00:27:48.998
in the PC USA, to recover from the backlash.
448
00:27:53.743 --> 00:27:56.661
What, your memories of the Women's Ministry Unit,
449
00:27:56.661 --> 00:27:58.744
how did that affect them?
450
00:28:00.890 --> 00:28:04.380
Well, first and foremost, Mary Ann lost her job,
451
00:28:04.380 --> 00:28:06.109
which I'm sure you're aware of.
452
00:28:06.109 --> 00:28:06.942
Yes, yeah.
453
00:28:06.942 --> 00:28:09.403
I've actually interviewed Mary Ann too.
454
00:28:09.403 --> 00:28:11.831
Oh, okay, yeah, good. I figured that.
455
00:28:11.831 --> 00:28:12.664
Yes.
456
00:28:13.730 --> 00:28:16.040
But do you have memories of how,
457
00:28:16.040 --> 00:28:17.740
when you said it took a long time to recover,
458
00:28:17.740 --> 00:28:18.965
could you say a little bit more about that,
459
00:28:18.965 --> 00:28:22.215
'cause I think that's really important.
460
00:28:24.205 --> 00:28:27.497
I think it's taken the church a long time to recover.
461
00:28:27.497 --> 00:28:31.664
Women's Ministry no longer exists as it did in those days.
462
00:28:34.955 --> 00:28:38.952
I almost equated Re-Imagining to Angela Davis,
463
00:28:38.952 --> 00:28:41.471
(laughs) because
464
00:28:41.471 --> 00:28:43.471
the two shall never die.
465
00:28:44.591 --> 00:28:47.258
However, people would for years,
466
00:28:48.338 --> 00:28:51.921
refer to, oh, that Re-Imagining conference.
467
00:28:54.356 --> 00:28:57.282
But what I find interesting,
468
00:28:57.282 --> 00:29:01.199
and I've just become aware of this in the last,
469
00:29:02.176 --> 00:29:05.009
say year or two, is that the term,
470
00:29:07.078 --> 00:29:09.951
well, the term Re-Imagining was a dirty word.
471
00:29:09.951 --> 00:29:11.034
You know, oh,
472
00:29:12.594 --> 00:29:14.177
those uppity women.
473
00:29:17.190 --> 00:29:21.967
But now, Re-Imagining is a word that is surfacing
474
00:29:21.967 --> 00:29:23.782
in a lot of areas.
475
00:29:23.782 --> 00:29:25.264
Sure is.
476
00:29:25.264 --> 00:29:27.494
You know, let's reimagine this.
477
00:29:27.494 --> 00:29:31.244
Which means rethink, renew, look into deeper.
478
00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:38.230
But it has probably taken 20-plus years
479
00:29:41.651 --> 00:29:45.651
for the church, for that to not be a dirty word.
480
00:29:47.708 --> 00:29:49.393
So you're seeing that term being used
481
00:29:49.393 --> 00:29:52.393
in the church as well, Re-Imagining?
482
00:29:54.579 --> 00:29:57.174
You know, I'm not sure about that.
483
00:29:57.174 --> 00:30:01.329
I wanna say yes, but I'm not real sure that's the,
484
00:30:01.329 --> 00:30:04.162
if it is, it's not embedded in it.
485
00:30:05.328 --> 00:30:07.598
It's on the periphery.
486
00:30:07.598 --> 00:30:08.681
Yeah, yeah.
487
00:30:09.702 --> 00:30:13.202
Emily, were you surprised by the backlash?
488
00:30:14.101 --> 00:30:15.018
Oh, yeah.
489
00:30:16.220 --> 00:30:19.970
And why were you surprised?
I expected to
490
00:30:24.038 --> 00:30:24.955
create some
491
00:30:28.166 --> 00:30:29.249
conversation,
492
00:30:31.087 --> 00:30:32.004
discussion.
493
00:30:34.179 --> 00:30:38.346
Did I expect the kind of backlash within the church?
494
00:30:40.277 --> 00:30:41.110
No.
495
00:30:42.395 --> 00:30:45.145
I was both surprised, astonished,
496
00:30:47.419 --> 00:30:51.040
and disappointed and hurt by all of it,
497
00:30:51.040 --> 00:30:53.394
and I don't mean necessarily hurt personally,
498
00:30:53.394 --> 00:30:57.561
but just hurt that the church could be so vicious.
499
00:31:03.646 --> 00:31:05.043
And looking back on it,
500
00:31:05.043 --> 00:31:07.020
how do you account for the backlash?
501
00:31:07.020 --> 00:31:08.437
What led to that?
502
00:31:14.318 --> 00:31:15.151
Change.
503
00:31:17.122 --> 00:31:17.955
And,
504
00:31:20.292 --> 00:31:23.625
women beginning to gain some more power.
505
00:31:27.123 --> 00:31:31.401
Boy, I hate to say those things, about my church.
506
00:31:31.401 --> 00:31:33.259
Yeah, yeah.
507
00:31:33.259 --> 00:31:34.509
It's painful.
508
00:31:39.107 --> 00:31:41.572
Is it, I mean, I don't wanna put words in your mouth,
509
00:31:41.572 --> 00:31:44.700
is it because you care about the church?
510
00:31:44.700 --> 00:31:46.388
Is that fair to say?
511
00:31:46.388 --> 00:31:48.284
Yes, that's fair to say.
512
00:31:48.284 --> 00:31:49.367
Yeah, yeah.
513
00:31:52.613 --> 00:31:55.702
And I have to say, not only do I care about it,
514
00:31:55.702 --> 00:31:58.956
because the church, not always, the PC USA,
515
00:31:58.956 --> 00:32:00.623
but most of my life,
516
00:32:03.175 --> 00:32:06.842
has nurtured me, nourished me, supported me,
517
00:32:08.804 --> 00:32:09.971
challenged me,
518
00:32:12.231 --> 00:32:14.731
provided opportunities for me,
519
00:32:17.668 --> 00:32:20.418
so, yes, I care about the church.
520
00:32:23.067 --> 00:32:25.819
And in some respects, I think,
521
00:32:25.819 --> 00:32:28.617
and I haven't thought about it quite like this before,
522
00:32:28.617 --> 00:32:32.617
until I just said that, in some respects it was,
523
00:32:33.682 --> 00:32:37.682
the church was saying they didn't care about me.
524
00:32:39.075 --> 00:32:41.325
Say some more about that.
525
00:32:44.695 --> 00:32:49.518
Well, it wasn't necessarily me personally, but,
526
00:32:49.518 --> 00:32:51.935
they didn't care about women,
527
00:32:54.899 --> 00:32:58.066
they cared about women as long as they
528
00:32:59.591 --> 00:33:03.174
realized that it was a patriarchal society.
529
00:33:04.012 --> 00:33:04.845
Mm-hmm.
530
00:33:08.093 --> 00:33:09.698
Yeah.
531
00:33:09.698 --> 00:33:12.008
And that kind of relates to,
532
00:33:12.008 --> 00:33:14.272
were you at the general assembly?
533
00:33:14.272 --> 00:33:16.331
Do you remember the report about Re-Imagining?
534
00:33:16.331 --> 00:33:20.373
Is any of that, do you have any reactions to that at all?
535
00:33:20.373 --> 00:33:22.790
I was not at that assembly.
536
00:33:25.737 --> 00:33:27.487
I was astounded that,
537
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:35.165
I wasn't surprised that there was some moderate backlash,
538
00:33:35.165 --> 00:33:38.208
because it was new, something new,
539
00:33:38.208 --> 00:33:40.125
but I was astounded by,
540
00:33:46.061 --> 00:33:48.119
the depth of the backlash,
541
00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:51.202
and the viciousness, and, these evil,
542
00:33:53.067 --> 00:33:57.249
I mean, that's the way it felt, these evil women, what?
543
00:33:57.249 --> 00:34:00.166
They don't know how to do theology.
544
00:34:01.004 --> 00:34:01.837
Yeah.
545
00:34:02.674 --> 00:34:03.507
Mm-hm.
546
00:34:04.687 --> 00:34:05.520
Yeah.
547
00:34:07.069 --> 00:34:10.819
So, Emily, how would you define Re-Imagining?
548
00:34:18.161 --> 00:34:19.994
I think it was, hmm.
549
00:34:22.901 --> 00:34:25.318
Life-changing for the church.
550
00:34:27.887 --> 00:34:31.663
But it certainly went through the birthing process.
551
00:34:31.663 --> 00:34:34.385
I still am sure we're fully born yet.
552
00:34:34.385 --> 00:34:36.635
(laughing)
553
00:34:40.155 --> 00:34:42.488
But we have come a long way.
554
00:34:44.028 --> 00:34:45.796
And what would you point to
555
00:34:45.796 --> 00:34:49.140
that has developed over the years?
556
00:34:49.140 --> 00:34:51.640
Where we are now that's there.
557
00:34:53.295 --> 00:34:54.795
I think there is
558
00:34:57.572 --> 00:35:01.072
a broader acceptance of Feminist theology,
559
00:35:03.837 --> 00:35:07.004
Womanist theology, Mujerista theology,
560
00:35:08.452 --> 00:35:13.300
and a recognition that there's validity in all of 'em.
561
00:35:13.300 --> 00:35:14.317
And you're saying that--
And that--
562
00:35:14.317 --> 00:35:16.682
Oh, go 'head. Sorry, go 'head.
563
00:35:16.682 --> 00:35:18.080
That doesn't necessarily mean
564
00:35:18.080 --> 00:35:22.045
you have to agree with every bit of it.
565
00:35:22.045 --> 00:35:24.482
But there's been a much broader
566
00:35:24.482 --> 00:35:27.409
acceptance of those theologies,
567
00:35:27.409 --> 00:35:30.743
and integrated into the life of the church.
568
00:35:30.743 --> 00:35:32.910
And there's been some real
569
00:35:36.059 --> 00:35:38.809
concentrated efforts in doing so,
570
00:35:40.456 --> 00:35:43.672
along with a little resistance here and there.
571
00:35:43.672 --> 00:35:45.068
That is really important.
572
00:35:45.068 --> 00:35:47.741
How do you see it being integrated into the church?
573
00:35:47.741 --> 00:35:49.158
That's important.
574
00:35:54.496 --> 00:35:58.329
Well, for one thing, just trying to be very,
575
00:36:01.846 --> 00:36:06.369
in every aspect of, and now I'm talking about
576
00:36:06.369 --> 00:36:09.713
the larger church now, not congregations.
577
00:36:09.713 --> 00:36:12.106
Okay, the larger Presbyterian USA Church?
578
00:36:12.106 --> 00:36:13.920
Yes.
Yeah, mm-hm.
579
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:17.503
And I think some other denominations too.
580
00:36:18.526 --> 00:36:20.276
Really lifting up and
581
00:36:25.011 --> 00:36:28.261
affirming the different theologies from
582
00:36:33.550 --> 00:36:37.383
black theology, womanist, mujerista, whatever.
583
00:36:41.894 --> 00:36:46.061
And also, and whole committees and whatever, groups,
584
00:36:50.995 --> 00:36:53.578
trying to really make sure that
585
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:03.076
these various groups, theologies, races, sexes,
586
00:37:06.832 --> 00:37:09.749
are being recognized and lifted up.
587
00:37:13.474 --> 00:37:16.893
And sometimes that creates some real difficult issues,
588
00:37:16.893 --> 00:37:19.651
and not necessarily in a bad way,
589
00:37:19.651 --> 00:37:22.234
but much like Re-Imagining did.
590
00:37:23.945 --> 00:37:25.427
It makes you think.
591
00:37:25.427 --> 00:37:28.760
It makes you understand our differences.
592
00:37:33.264 --> 00:37:35.366
Now, you made a distinction with the local church.
593
00:37:35.366 --> 00:37:37.706
Do you feel as if that is happening
594
00:37:37.706 --> 00:37:40.289
at the local level in churches?
595
00:37:42.605 --> 00:37:45.282
(sighs)
596
00:37:45.282 --> 00:37:46.365
Well, some.
597
00:37:47.830 --> 00:37:49.965
(laughs)
598
00:37:49.965 --> 00:37:51.548
Not in mine.
Yeah.
599
00:37:54.032 --> 00:37:56.054
It kinda depends on the church, go 'head.
600
00:37:56.054 --> 00:37:58.565
However, you may not realize this,
601
00:37:58.565 --> 00:38:01.728
but I'm only 15 miles from Ferguson.
602
00:38:01.728 --> 00:38:04.240
Oh, I did not realize that, wow.
603
00:38:04.240 --> 00:38:06.341
No, you wouldn't have any way of knowing,
604
00:38:06.341 --> 00:38:09.225
'cause I'm in Illinois. (laughs)
605
00:38:09.225 --> 00:38:13.054
And the pastor of the First Presbyterian Church of Ferguson
606
00:38:13.054 --> 00:38:16.145
happens to be one of my very best friends.
607
00:38:16.145 --> 00:38:16.978
Wow.
608
00:38:17.908 --> 00:38:18.741
So,
609
00:38:20.791 --> 00:38:24.958
yeah, some churches are, and that one certainly is.
610
00:38:25.815 --> 00:38:27.232
Is my church, no.
611
00:38:28.451 --> 00:38:31.539
Do they think it's an issue, no.
612
00:38:31.539 --> 00:38:33.872
And I'm sad about that, but.
613
00:38:36.026 --> 00:38:38.780
Well, that's a stark contrast, isn't it?
614
00:38:38.780 --> 00:38:40.301
Yes, it is.
615
00:38:40.301 --> 00:38:41.384
Yeah, yeah.
616
00:38:44.357 --> 00:38:45.803
Wow, I'm just taken aback.
617
00:38:45.803 --> 00:38:47.894
That's powerful, Emily.
618
00:38:47.894 --> 00:38:49.824
What aspects of Re-Imagining were
619
00:38:49.824 --> 00:38:52.491
most significant to you and why?
620
00:38:59.257 --> 00:39:02.340
Well, I'd say, the most significant
621
00:39:03.333 --> 00:39:05.166
was really just to see
622
00:39:07.732 --> 00:39:11.732
this wonderful gathering of faithful Christians,
623
00:39:16.549 --> 00:39:19.382
who were curious enough to want to
624
00:39:24.250 --> 00:39:27.175
come together, ecumenically,
625
00:39:27.175 --> 00:39:28.425
and experience,
626
00:39:31.710 --> 00:39:33.960
experience our differences.
627
00:39:37.354 --> 00:39:40.172
What differences are you thinking of?
628
00:39:40.172 --> 00:39:42.755
As well as our connectedness.
629
00:39:43.736 --> 00:39:44.569
Yes.
630
00:39:47.197 --> 00:39:50.697
And what differences were you thinking of?
631
00:39:53.427 --> 00:39:57.953
In the beginning, primarily theological differences,
632
00:39:57.953 --> 00:39:59.926
is what I was thinking of.
633
00:39:59.926 --> 00:40:03.060
But we also experienced the differences
634
00:40:03.060 --> 00:40:06.060
of sexuality, of race, and theology.
635
00:40:12.660 --> 00:40:15.378
I'm curious, did your involvement in Re-Imagining
636
00:40:15.378 --> 00:40:17.932
change your perspective on Feminist theology,
637
00:40:17.932 --> 00:40:19.682
or the church at all?
638
00:40:24.133 --> 00:40:27.800
Well, probably to some degree, because it,
639
00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:33.406
it changed, I wouldn't necessarily say it changed,
640
00:40:35.250 --> 00:40:36.583
but it expanded.
641
00:40:41.233 --> 00:40:43.483
Well, probably changed too.
642
00:40:45.321 --> 00:40:49.404
Changed or expanded in what way, would you say?
643
00:40:55.101 --> 00:40:57.822
Well, more the, I think,
644
00:40:57.822 --> 00:41:01.655
to say change is really probably not accurate,
645
00:41:03.225 --> 00:41:06.274
but expanded, a better understanding,
646
00:41:06.274 --> 00:41:09.935
I came out of it with a better understanding
647
00:41:09.935 --> 00:41:13.102
of different theological perspectives.
648
00:41:14.417 --> 00:41:17.084
And I probably also had a better
649
00:41:18.450 --> 00:41:22.400
understanding of sexuality differences.
650
00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:23.983
I can't say that I,
651
00:41:26.525 --> 00:41:28.358
it wasn't like, oh my,
652
00:41:32.576 --> 00:41:35.092
gay and lesbian people do not have a place in the church.
653
00:41:35.092 --> 00:41:36.778
I didn't feel that way at all.
654
00:41:36.778 --> 00:41:41.678
But I probably came out of it with a better understanding.
655
00:41:41.678 --> 00:41:43.858
And did that understanding come from that,
656
00:41:43.858 --> 00:41:48.025
when they came forward, during part of the conference?
657
00:41:49.084 --> 00:41:50.606
I'm sorry, I missed that.
Oh, sure.
658
00:41:50.606 --> 00:41:52.657
Did that understanding come from
659
00:41:52.657 --> 00:41:55.869
when they came forward as part of the conference?
660
00:41:55.869 --> 00:42:00.280
Or was it one of the workshops, do you recall?
661
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:04.973
No, I can't, I would say probably all of the above.
662
00:42:04.973 --> 00:42:08.515
Yes, (laughs) yeah, yeah.
663
00:42:08.515 --> 00:42:11.847
Do you think that Re-Imagining made specific
664
00:42:11.847 --> 00:42:15.764
contributions to Christian theology or liturgy?
665
00:42:17.208 --> 00:42:18.125
Oh, yeah.
666
00:42:20.981 --> 00:42:22.975
Made what, better contributions?
667
00:42:22.975 --> 00:42:23.908
Is that what you said?
668
00:42:23.908 --> 00:42:26.796
Yean, what specific contributions.
669
00:42:26.796 --> 00:42:27.937
What do you think--
Oh, specific.
670
00:42:27.937 --> 00:42:29.770
Yes.
Well, I think,
671
00:42:31.189 --> 00:42:32.106
I think it,
672
00:42:35.084 --> 00:42:38.251
in a backhanded way, forced the church
673
00:42:39.929 --> 00:42:43.058
to begin to look at the different
674
00:42:43.058 --> 00:42:45.808
theologies in a more serious way.
675
00:42:48.109 --> 00:42:50.026
The church had already,
676
00:42:53.721 --> 00:42:54.721
looked at...
677
00:42:59.538 --> 00:43:00.711
Oh, boy. (laughs)
678
00:43:00.711 --> 00:43:01.688
I was looking for the word.
679
00:43:01.688 --> 00:43:03.011
I couldn't remember it.
Sure.
680
00:43:03.011 --> 00:43:04.721
Liberation stuff. (laughs)
Right.
681
00:43:04.721 --> 00:43:07.897
They had already begun to look at liberation theology,
682
00:43:07.897 --> 00:43:11.594
but they really hadn't looked at the,
683
00:43:11.594 --> 00:43:13.303
at least from my perspective,
684
00:43:13.303 --> 00:43:16.070
they hadn't looked at the Feminist theology,
685
00:43:16.070 --> 00:43:18.597
other, or the black theology.
686
00:43:18.597 --> 00:43:19.430
Yes.
687
00:43:21.891 --> 00:43:23.439
And I think it forced the church
688
00:43:23.439 --> 00:43:25.185
to begin to deal with those.
689
00:43:25.185 --> 00:43:28.031
It was a backhanded blow.
690
00:43:28.031 --> 00:43:30.531
They resisted, obviously, but,
691
00:43:32.581 --> 00:43:35.022
when the dust finally settled,
692
00:43:35.022 --> 00:43:38.140
they began to (laughs)
693
00:43:38.140 --> 00:43:41.083
really look at, and advice.
694
00:43:41.083 --> 00:43:41.916
Yeah.
695
00:43:44.782 --> 00:43:47.199
You know, I have a grandson
696
00:43:48.319 --> 00:43:51.902
that just graduated from seminary last year
697
00:43:52.953 --> 00:43:55.870
with an emphasis in black theology,
698
00:43:58.182 --> 00:44:00.849
and listening to him talk about,
699
00:44:03.966 --> 00:44:05.712
not just black theology,
700
00:44:05.712 --> 00:44:09.295
but liberation theology, Feminist theology.
701
00:44:12.344 --> 00:44:15.106
His father who graduated some, what,
702
00:44:15.106 --> 00:44:18.725
30 years or more ago, with his PhD,
703
00:44:18.725 --> 00:44:22.112
did not, I mean, he has come that far, but,
704
00:44:22.112 --> 00:44:26.195
he wasn't talking those things when he graduated.
705
00:44:28.449 --> 00:44:29.949
So the church has,
706
00:44:31.090 --> 00:44:32.797
we have moved forward.
707
00:44:32.797 --> 00:44:33.880
Yeah, yeah.
708
00:44:35.564 --> 00:44:37.920
Some days, we still have aways to go.
709
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:40.003
(laughs)
710
00:44:41.946 --> 00:44:45.110
Well, Emily, looking back, it's been almost 25 years.
711
00:44:45.110 --> 00:44:46.983
As you look back, what do you think is the greatest
712
00:44:46.983 --> 00:44:50.066
legacy of the Re-Imagining community?
713
00:44:56.748 --> 00:44:59.248
Probably the recognition of,
714
00:45:04.146 --> 00:45:07.979
both Feminist theology and the gifts of women.
715
00:45:11.594 --> 00:45:12.427
Mm-hm.
716
00:45:15.296 --> 00:45:16.129
Yeah.
717
00:45:16.129 --> 00:45:20.296
And by Feminist theology, I'm encompassing all women.
718
00:45:27.248 --> 00:45:29.239
Womanist, Mujerista.
719
00:45:29.239 --> 00:45:30.906
Yes.
Yeah, mm-hm.
720
00:45:31.804 --> 00:45:32.637
Yeah.
721
00:45:33.763 --> 00:45:37.176
So what do you think Re-Imagining should look like today?
722
00:45:37.176 --> 00:45:39.167
And I don't mean just the Re-Imagining conference,
723
00:45:39.167 --> 00:45:41.890
or the community, but what in the church needs,
724
00:45:41.890 --> 00:45:46.057
and/or society, needs to be re-imagined today?
725
00:45:48.469 --> 00:45:51.219
Well, it's probably more around
726
00:45:54.158 --> 00:45:57.158
the African American community, and,
727
00:45:58.385 --> 00:46:01.597
part of that comes from my location here.
728
00:46:01.597 --> 00:46:02.430
Yes.
729
00:46:05.176 --> 00:46:06.593
And how we can,
730
00:46:08.222 --> 00:46:11.568
it's still the most segregated,
731
00:46:11.568 --> 00:46:15.735
Sunday morning is still the most segregated hour we have,
732
00:46:18.157 --> 00:46:22.324
and how we can move forward together and not separately.
733
00:46:24.867 --> 00:46:28.448
And still, you know, I'm still a woman.
734
00:46:28.448 --> 00:46:30.641
(laughing)
735
00:46:30.641 --> 00:46:33.935
How we can still be our own person.
736
00:46:33.935 --> 00:46:35.102
Right, yeah.
737
00:46:37.469 --> 00:46:38.322
That's great.
738
00:46:38.322 --> 00:46:41.651
And, Emily, I have one final very specific question.
739
00:46:41.651 --> 00:46:44.211
The Re-Imagining community has reincorporated,
740
00:46:44.211 --> 00:46:46.853
and were involved in a website,
741
00:46:46.853 --> 00:46:50.080
and the website is going to be part archive,
742
00:46:50.080 --> 00:46:51.582
including for example, digitized versions--
743
00:46:51.582 --> 00:46:54.499
Give me just a moment.
Oh, sure.
744
00:46:56.459 --> 00:46:58.246
What, we don't, okay.
745
00:46:58.246 --> 00:47:00.280
Oh, I'm sorry.
No, that's fine.
746
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:02.355
That's fine. (laughs)
Okay.
747
00:47:02.355 --> 00:47:03.696
Oh, I was talking about the website,
748
00:47:03.696 --> 00:47:05.203
and it's gonna be part archival,
749
00:47:05.203 --> 00:47:09.062
but partly including resources for people,
750
00:47:09.062 --> 00:47:12.118
and I'm just wondering if you had ideas about
751
00:47:12.118 --> 00:47:14.507
what should be included in the website,
752
00:47:14.507 --> 00:47:16.333
who would benefit from it,
753
00:47:16.333 --> 00:47:17.638
how could they find out about it,
754
00:47:17.638 --> 00:47:18.901
just any thoughts you have.
755
00:47:18.901 --> 00:47:21.544
We're just collecting ideas for the website.
756
00:47:21.544 --> 00:47:22.972
Well, not really.
757
00:47:22.972 --> 00:47:25.055
I pondered that question.
758
00:47:28.385 --> 00:47:30.462
(sighs) I,
759
00:47:30.462 --> 00:47:33.024
and I Google lots of stuff.
760
00:47:33.024 --> 00:47:35.107
I look up lots of things.
761
00:47:37.372 --> 00:47:40.372
But just maybe good resources for...
762
00:47:45.908 --> 00:47:49.306
No, I don't really. (laughs)
Sure, that's fine too.
763
00:47:49.306 --> 00:47:51.015
(laughing)
764
00:47:51.015 --> 00:47:52.033
I'm sorry about that.
765
00:47:52.033 --> 00:47:53.699
No, oh, this has been wonderful.
766
00:47:53.699 --> 00:47:55.285
You had so many good things to say.
767
00:47:55.285 --> 00:47:57.314
And before we go, I just wanted to find out
768
00:47:57.314 --> 00:47:59.628
if there's anything we haven't discussed
769
00:47:59.628 --> 00:48:01.878
that you would like to add.
770
00:48:03.777 --> 00:48:07.607
Well, I really can't think of anything.
771
00:48:07.607 --> 00:48:10.614
It was a wonderful, you know,
772
00:48:10.614 --> 00:48:14.614
the years that I worked with Presbyterian Women,
773
00:48:15.744 --> 00:48:20.419
and Women's Ministry, the general assembly council,
774
00:48:20.419 --> 00:48:24.502
were extremely enriching years for me in my life.
775
00:48:30.516 --> 00:48:33.122
I would like to see, I miss the community.
776
00:48:33.122 --> 00:48:35.523
I don't miss the work, but I miss the community.
777
00:48:35.523 --> 00:48:37.773
(laughing)
778
00:48:40.692 --> 00:48:44.859
Just, I'd like to see more people have that opportunity,
779
00:48:45.977 --> 00:48:49.027
particularly women, and some of the more younger women.
780
00:48:49.027 --> 00:48:50.027
Yes, yeah.
781
00:48:51.629 --> 00:48:54.190
Well, Emily, this has been just delightful.
782
00:48:54.190 --> 00:48:56.755
I'm gonna turn off the recording now.
783
00:48:56.755 --> 00:48:58.922
Thank you so much.
Okay.