Edward M. Todd: Try to train them all, train those who he can train. And I counteracted them. I said, "I'm going to try to train all of them, this is what I'm here for." I was concerned about all the students, not just those who academically or who were physically capable of it, and who had the skills to form on a court. I wanted to train those who were not physically and athletically inclined too, I want to work with them. He said, "Don't waste your time," I said, "I'm going to waste some time with them, I'm going to do it. That's what I'm here for." That make sense? 

Sonya Ramsey: What did he say that? 

Edward M. Todd: He didn't say anything. He went on and left. He left. He didn't respond one way or the other. And that was my first encounter with the superintendent, and that was early in the '50s or something like that. 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay, let's see. Were you involved in any social clubs? Like Pinnacles? 

Edward M. Todd: Had a— Called a Townsman. The Townsman. 

Sonya Ramsey: What did they do? 

Edward M. Todd: We had dances. We had meetings every month. We had cookouts. We had, as I said, had dances on Christmas. We'd go to meet the Townsman in Fayetteville. 

Sonya Ramsey: Oh, there's different chapters? 

Edward M. Todd: There're different chapters. 

Sonya Ramsey: Is it a social organization? 

Edward M. Todd: That's a social organization. 

Sonya Ramsey: What type of men were members of the club? 

Edward M. Todd: Don't ask me. Elite. 

Sonya Ramsey: Elite. Okay. Did you have a initiation process like fraternity's do? 

Edward M. Todd: No. 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay. And was it a big group? 

Edward M. Todd: We had twenty members. Twenty members, which constituted the total organization. Twenty members and their wives. 

Sonya Ramsey: Could more people join or was it a set number? 

Edward M. Todd: At that time, there were only 20. 

Sonya Ramsey: And how did you get to become a member? Were you've asked or did you have to apply? 

Edward M. Todd: We used to ask. Some of them saw the philosophy of that organization. Now, it wasn't a fraternity that was a social club. And for a long time it maintained its number twenty, so we didn't have to ask anybody in. But as we got older, they would begin to drop out. I dropped out of it because I couldn't do things I used to. I couldn't run them down that court like I used to. I couldn't hit that ball like I used to. So I just dropped out. 

Sonya Ramsey: They did a lot of sports activities too? 

Edward M. Todd: Oh, yeah. We traveled from here to Washington DC to see the Washington Redskins play. 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay, okay. 

Edward M. Todd: Yeah. And it was before Griffin. Was that his name? No, no, not Griffin. 

Sonya Ramsey: Oh, the— 

Edward M. Todd: Who was the owner? 

Sonya Ramsey: Oh, I know who you're talking about. 

Edward M. Todd: He was the owner of the Washington Redskins at that time. He did not have any Blacks on the team. So Kennedy told him, he said, "Now, you get some Blacks or you can't play in this stadium." 

Sonya Ramsey: Wow, okay. 

Edward M. Todd: You ever heard that before? 

Sonya Ramsey: No, I didn't know that. 

Edward M. Todd: Yeah. He says, "You get you some Black players on this team, or you get out Griffin Stadium. You can't play." 

Sonya Ramsey: Jack K. Cook? Ken Cook? 

Edward M. Todd: No. Jack K. Cook is [indistinct 00:03:24]. 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay. It's before. 

Edward M. Todd: Yeah. Oh, yeah. 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay. 

Edward M. Todd: No, I can almost tell you the name. Name doesn't ring a bell with me now. But he told him point-blank said, "You get some Black players on this team or you can't play in Griffin Stadium." I mean, play in John F. K. Stadium. That's what it was. 

Sonya Ramsey: Did you have any experienced students before you went to administration that went to be professional players? 

Edward M. Todd: No. No. 

Sonya Ramsey: Well, aside from the Townsman, were you any other organizations? 

Edward M. Todd: That was enough, my Lord. That was enough. Trinity Church. 

Sonya Ramsey: What church did you— 

Edward M. Todd: Chestnut Street Presbyterian Church. 

Sonya Ramsey: Now, why did you change? You changed from Baptist. 

Edward M. Todd: Baptist to Presbyterian. 

Sonya Ramsey: Was that a big change for you? 

Edward M. Todd: No. Gods in every church. Okay. I had a friend here who was a graduate of Shirley who was a minister. And the church that I went to, he was a pastor and I belonged to it. And the people were not as cordial. So I said to my wife, I said, "We going to find us another church." This was early on. So the principal of school Booker Washington, bless his heart, he was just a cordial gentleman. Dead now. Come to our church. So that's been the process. Over a period of time we decided to go. We went there. We've been there since, 30 years ago. 

Sonya Ramsey: You were talking about, I'm sorry to interrupt, about Wilmington. How did you get acclimated to the community? How long did it take to get accepted into the community? It seems you were pretty well accepted. 

Edward M. Todd: Yeah. How long did it take? I don't know how long it took. 

Sonya Ramsey: Was it a gradual process? 

Edward M. Todd: Oh, yes. Surely, gradually. But then we became outstanding in the community. 

Sonya Ramsey: That's what— Yeah. 

Edward M. Todd: Yeah. We became outstanding. And right now, because I don't want talk about that because that's too much of a pat on the shoulder and I don't want to do that. 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Well, that's fine. 

Edward M. Todd: Yeah. 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Let me see. I think— Do you have anything else you'd like to add about the fifties in the early sixties, that you'd like to add? 

Edward M. Todd: I don't know. You may ask me something about the fifties and sixties specifically. 

Sonya Ramsey: Did you keep in contact with any of your south fellow soldiers? 

Edward M. Todd: Yeah. As a matter of fact, up until last— I called one last year who lives in Jessup, Georgia. 

Sonya Ramsey: Oh, okay. 

Edward M. Todd: Who's a funeral director. And I talked with his daughter and his daughter was saying to me something like this, "Dad is not doing well." And he didn't even remember my name, as well as long as we stayed together in the military. He's a funeral director now. And has one of them up in Kinston now, who's, as I said, back and forth. And every now and then we keep in touch. And I have one who used to call me from West Virginia. And one used to call me Bert, nevermind. I had one who used to call me from West Virginia from out there in— Somewhere. I don't know, Kansas someplace used to call me. And I tried to get him to get a reunion, soldier reunion. And he said, "You work on it and I'll come." I said, "I ain't working it. No, you work on it and I'll come." So that's answering your question. I think, I did. 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay. I wanted to ask you, what do you think were some of the— I know some of the negatives of segregation, but do you think there were any positive aspects about it? 

Edward M. Todd: Yeah. 

Sonya Ramsey: What were some of those? 

Edward M. Todd: Some of those was the fact that some of those individuals who were implementing the programs of segregation, knew it was wrong. And they said on occasions that this is going end one day. We know it's wrong. We don't want to treat you that way. I've heard that many times, but we are just a small portion, but we knew it's going to end. And as I told that fellow over there and— What did I say? Riding that bus. I said, "This will end one day." And it ended. 

Edward M. Todd: And some of them, I had some coworkers who, "Sorry, it happened." And if you talk to some of them now, they'd say, "I'm so sorry, but we were not responsible for it. We're sorry it happened." Jim Lehman, who was one of the fellows who used to broadcast for the Philadelphia Eagles, who was a lieutenant in the company who gave us support in England, I called him once. He wanted to know how we were doing. And he was broadcasting, I believe, for the Philadelphia Eagles. I believe it was. And he finally died. Jim Lehman, who was a sportscaster. And I thought he did quite well. Quite well. 

Edward M. Todd: He wished that it had not happen in England when we were there, but he'd always say, "I'm glad y'all went over to that dance." But the Murphy, who was the company commander, didn't want us to go. Okay. 

Sonya Ramsey: Do you think there was any negative things about integration or that the Black community lost anything from integration? 

Edward M. Todd: No. I'm sure they lost something, but whatever they lost it wasn't worthy of losing it. In other words, we gained more than we lost. 

Sonya Ramsey: You think so? 

Edward M. Todd: I don't think so. I know so. 

Sonya Ramsey: What are some of the things that we gained? 

Edward M. Todd: Positions are one thing. Status is another thing. Right now, you could not have gone to— Where you studying in school? 

Sonya Ramsey: Chapel Hill University. 

Edward M. Todd: You could never have gone to Chapel Hill. You see? 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay. I had— Oh, go ahead. 

Edward M. Todd: Job wise. That's why we lose a lot of teachers, excuse me, minority teachers right now. Right this minute because it opened up that opportunity for other jobs that was not available when I came along. I could only do one, or two, three things. Teach, preach, be a doctor. What else could I do? I couldn't go out there and do nothing else. Those are the kind of things that has changed, whether it's good or bad. Okay. You can determine that. 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay. I wanted to ask you a question about the Black community in Wilmington in the fifties and the sixties. Was there much distinguishment on class differences and things like that? 

Edward M. Todd: Defined class. 

Sonya Ramsey: Well, did the people who worked at service jobs associate much with the people that were teachers? Or did they have separate organizations based on where you work? 

Edward M. Todd: Okay, now let me give you this. I told you about the Townsman, you had to be professional in order to be in a town. 

Sonya Ramsey: Did they have clubs for people that weren't professionals? 

Edward M. Todd: If they did, I don't know. And you had to be professional in order to get in the fraternity because— I don't know, are you in a sorority? What sorority? 

Sonya Ramsey: Delta. 

Edward M. Todd: Delta. Okay. Delta. Sigma Theta. Okay, okay, okay. 

Sonya Ramsey: Was there a big difference? Was it just based on jobs and things like that? 

Edward M. Todd: Was there a big difference? What you mean? 

Sonya Ramsey: The different people in different jobs. 

Edward M. Todd: Oh, yeah. It was a big difference. Those who were in service jobs were not making as much money as those who were otherwise. 

Sonya Ramsey: Did professionals have their own neighborhoods or did they live— 

Edward M. Todd: Yeah, they began to branch out. They began to— Now, when we came here 32, whatever the number years my wife tell you, we were almost just in the inside of city limits. Now, you see all that up there. Women in college, all out there. Where you staying? 

Sonya Ramsey: In UNC housing. 

Edward M. Todd: You know what that was? Woods. Nothing. And from that street right out here on forward was nothing but woods. It was known as outside the city limits. I don't know whether that answered your question or not. 

Sonya Ramsey: And I wanted to ask in Wilmington, were there differences amongst skin shades? Did light skinned Blacks discriminate against darker skin Blacks? Or vice versa and things like that? 

Edward M. Todd: If they did, I didn't know that. I was never discriminated against between Blacks, what have you. And I don't want to go through that again because there's too much into that, that I could get favors where no one else could. And I don't want to say it that way. 

Sonya Ramsey: But that happened? 

Edward M. Todd: It happened. Sure, it happened. Sure, it happened. Sure, it happened. Just like now, you got two individuals. I used to have to interview teachers. They'd come in, one White, one Black. I'd get an impression about the White and I'd get an impression by the Black. It's so common occurrence and you can't help it. It's just like walking through that door, you got two people walking through that door. You see one Black and one White. And it's just a common occurrence. It happens all the time. And until such times in sixty, seventy years from now, when there be no such thing as race, it's going to still happen. 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Did I leave anything out that I should add? 

Edward M. Todd: No. I don't know whether you did or not?. 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Here's my last question. What advice would you give a young man or young woman growing up today based on your experiences in life? 

Edward M. Todd: What advice would I give them? Oh, Lord. I'll sit there now and talk about that for the next book. See that book there? 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay. 

Edward M. Todd: But then I could cut it down to maybe a paragraph, or sentence, or two. Number one, don't forget how to grow up and be an individual first. How to be an individual, know who you are. Number two, be sure you get something that you can use in life. Whatever it takes, whatever that is. Something that's of value. Something that serves some kind of usefulness. Now, I've said to my daughter and son. And early on, we used to talk about it all the time. You determine what you want, and let's see if that's what you think you can handle it. 

Edward M. Todd: I don't know what, but you look like you are on your way, which is good. But whatever you're doing— And I've always said to teachers, to people, I've always said to people, "If you can't use it, don't bother it." That make sense? If you can't use it, if it's not going to serve a purpose, if it doesn't help you in life, why bother it? You always look forward to greater things. And I've always said to my son and daughter— I ain't going to get into that though. That's marriage. And I don't want to talk about that. 

Sonya Ramsey: Well, okay. 

Edward M. Todd: I don't want to talk about that. 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Well, I was going to ask you about your children. I was going to ask you, how do you think their educational experience differed from yours? 

Edward M. Todd: Now, that's a broad question. How does it differ from mine? Now, what do you mean, how does it differ from mine? Explain that. 

Sonya Ramsey: Well, did you think they have it better or worse? 

Edward M. Todd: Oh, do you think that educational experiences give rise to greater learning experiences? Is that what you're trying to say? 

Sonya Ramsey: Or not as great? 

Edward M. Todd: Oh, okay. As I look at it, daughter and son gained as much value and knowledge as I did because— 

Sonya Ramsey: Of their parents? 

Edward M. Todd: Of their parents. And we tried to guide them in the direction we felt that it would be useful to them, something that serves a value to them. And again, I used to say to my son, "If it doesn't serve a value, serve a purpose, why bother it?" And I used to ask the daughter, "Why bother it, if it doesn't serve a purpose?" 

Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Well, I think I've covered all my categories. I'll probably think of something later. 

Edward M. Todd: If you think of something later—