Leslie Brown: Everything that was going on in Hayti all the time. How did people know what was going on in Hayti? Was that just for all— Margaret Turner: Hayti was our place. I mean, we had everything there. I think I mentioned to you the other day, we had everything there that we needed. We didn't have to go to the White man for nothing. Leslie Brown: So everybody always knew what the news was? Margaret Turner: Oh, sure. Leslie Brown: Did you read the Carolina Times? Margaret Turner: Yes. Leslie Brown: Every week? Margaret Turner: Yes. Leslie Brown: And what'd you think of Lewis Austin? Margaret Turner: Oh, Lewis was fine. Oh, he was my guy. Yeah. He said he had a written on the back of his truck, truth unbridled. I will never forget that. Yeah, he was something of, I remember when we had demonstration downtown. Yeah, we had demonstration downtown. The Klan met us up there at that time up on Main Street. And I remember him telling them they could stay up there on Main Street, but better not come across that railroad because we were over there waiting for them so they didn't come over there either. Leslie Brown: They didn't? Margaret Turner: No. Leslie Brown: Oh. Margaret Turner: They weren't nothing but cowards nohow. Leslie Brown: Do you remember the Klan before the '60s? Was there ever any Klan activity before the '60s? Margaret Turner: Yeah, at the beach. Leslie Brown: At the beach, where? Down in North Carolina? Margaret Turner: Down to, yeah. It's Myrtle Beach now. It was Myrtle for the White, and Atlantic for the Black. Leslie Brown: Right. Margaret Turner: My mother carried us all down to the beach. And so the Klan, they called on the night riders so they came through that night. And so mama got us off of the, you know what I'm trying to say. Off of the beach and got us inside because she had rented a room for us. And we all slept across the bed because they didn't have decent things for us at that time. And so they came through then. Leslie Brown: Did anything happen? Margaret Turner: If anything happened, we didn't know about it because we were off to, it was dangerous to even look out. And then since we were young, we didn't realize exactly what it was until mama told us. Leslie Brown: And what did she tell you? Margaret Turner: She just told us the riders was coming through, night riders, because in my community before I grew up, this friend that worked at the American Tobacco Company, she told me it was preacher that lived in the next house to her. On the other side of them, as I told you, they had duplexes. And so they lived on one side of the house, and this preacher lived on the other side. And so he got missing. And so she asked her mother, she said she asked her mother what had happened to him. And she said the riders had come through and got him that night. They didn't see him anymore, that was right here in Durham. Leslie Brown: When was that? Margaret Turner: I guess it was back then in the '30s or '40s, because she told me about it. We both grown when she told me about it, because she was working at the American Tobacco Company, but she was a little older than I was. And she told me that because we were living on the same street at that time. Leslie Brown: Did she say what he did, what he had done? Margaret Turner: Well, she didn't know no more than they just come and got him. We don't know what he did. But anyhow, they come and got him and they didn't never hear from him anymore. Leslie Brown: So when your mother told you about the night riders, were you frightened? Were you scared? Margaret Turner: No. I've always been a person that I wasn't fearful. You just had to do it to me. That's the way I felt about it. And at that time, we knew what was going on nationwide and the way of speaking. And some other time, another time it happened to us too. Where were we? Oh yeah, in Atlanta, during the time we were in 1960, I said it was 1962, the NAACP convention. Well, we went out demonstrating at this big café, and we were on one side of the street and the Klan was on the other side of the street. And the Klan was in on the other side of the street when we came out of the café, no, we started in the café. But all those people, White people in there, had great big old black, white dogs. Looked like pigs, have them little leash. Margaret Turner: But we didn't cross over. We stayed over there on that side. And I got a magazine here during that time. It was a Life magazine. I got it in one of my boxes of material. I don't know whether it's in that closet. I got to clean that closet. I was in the closet or whether it's out in the utility house in some books. I kept all those books and things. And so at that time, I had some old children working with me. I mentioned their names yesterday, Norma Brown and Melissa Sampson. And they were all Beverly's friends, they were classmates and they were all Beverly's friends. And Beverly didn't, she didn't get a chance to go with us. I took Alyssa and Norma and Vivian and John Edwards, several others you know. McKissick, Lafayette McDonald. And then we had children from other states and cities. Margaret Turner: I met a lot of friends. Met a lot of friends, young friends because that was my thing. I wasn't thinking about the older ones. And even some that I didn't even know anything, had never heard of the place before. It was Greensboro, Georgia. And yeah, something else I wanted to tell you too. I was telling you about this girl I had met down there too. She was from St. Paul, Minnesota. Her name was Deborah Gilbert. And I think I told you, her father was a doctor and she stayed in the room. That's where I met her at Clark College because she stayed in the room with me. And the other few days ago, a few weeks ago, I ran across her address. I had misplaced it, had done a little book, a little address book. And I could think of, I never forgot her house number and all these years and it's been over 30 years. And I sent a letter in care of her father. Margaret Turner: But I sent it to her in care of him or the occupants, anybody of that lived there in that house. I don't know whether they're still living or not. And it's been a couple of weeks now since I sent that letter. I hadn't heard anything yet and I just look for it to come anytime. So I said, if I don't find her, I'll find her one way or the other. Because I'll send a letter to, I know Sally Raphael, she has a program on and they find lost persons. And I would love to find her. And then I said, before I do that, I'll send a letter to the police department and see if they can help me find her because I would love to see her. And I got a picture of her and she gave it to me in Chicago. In 1960, we was in Chicago. '60 must have been after, was it after '63? Because it might have been '64. Oh, Medgar Evers had just got killed. Leslie Brown: Was it for the convention? Margaret Turner: NAACP Convention. Leslie Brown: NAACP Convention. Margaret Turner: Well, you know that wasn't every year, but it might have been before Dr. King was assassinated. It could have been that same year because we had it in July. Leslie Brown: Uh-huh. That was 1968. Margaret Turner: When he. Leslie Brown: Yeah. Margaret Turner: When he was killed. Leslie Brown: Was killed in 1960— Margaret Turner: Oh, well that was 1963 then when we were in, because it was the one right behind the one in Atlanta in '62. Leslie Brown: And before John Kennedy was killed. Margaret Turner: John Kennedy was elected in '60. Leslie Brown: He was elected in '60. Margaret Turner: Uh-huh. Leslie Brown: He was assassinated in November of '63. Margaret Turner: Yeah, he wasn't assassinated when we went to the March on Washington. Leslie Brown: Right. Margaret Turner: Uh-huh. No, well, he didn't come out. Leslie Brown: No, he didn't. Margaret Turner: No, he didn't come out. Leslie Brown: That was the March on Washington was the summer before he was killed. Margaret Turner: Yeah, it was. Yeah, because I remember him being there at that time. Leslie Brown: Yeah. You know what you were going to tell me about? Margaret Turner: You wanted to me tell you about the March on Washington. I mean, the demonstrations and all. Leslie Brown: Yes. And you were going to tell me about the song. Your teachers, the song your teacher taught you. Margaret Turner: Oh yes, uh-huh. Oh yeah. Leslie Brown: You were going to tell me about that. And the March on Washington, and then the demonstration. Margaret Turner: You knew about the March on Washington. Weren't you there? Leslie Brown: No, I wasn't there. I was— Margaret Turner: Were you too young? Leslie Brown: No, I was too young. Well, not too, too young. I was eight. Margaret Turner: Oh yeah. But you were too young to go unless somebody carried you. Leslie Brown: Unless somebody went with me, I couldn't. Margaret Turner: That's right. I mean, you just couldn't. But here, the children couldn't go unless the parents carried them. I guess that's the way it was because we didn't have no young children there other than McKissick's children because his wife was there to take care of them. So well, how you want me to start? Leslie Brown: How did you hear about the March on Washington? Margaret Turner: Well, I was a NAACP member at that time. And I paid attention to everything that was happening. And in the meantime, I was working with McKissick and the newspapers come up but I didn't have to wait for the newspapers because I always got all the information I needed from him, from the organization. Especially from him, I'd say because he was the organization as a whole. Yes. Leslie Brown: So you heard about the Marsh in Washington from McKissick. And did you plan to go? Did you decide to go? Margaret Turner: I didn't plan to go. I didn't know what I was going to, I didn't know where I was going to plan to go or where I was going. And so after finding out about the March on Washington, the day before the march rather, a lot of the White people was asking me, because I worked closely with them, they was asking me, I don't know why they asked me was I going? And I told them, I didn't know what I was going to do. I didn't give them no answer, nobody no answer or whatever I was going or not. Margaret Turner: And so that evening when I came home from work, I think it was Reverend Swann called me. He was pastor of St. Joseph at that time, it was Reverend Swann or I mean, Attorney McKissick, one of the two called me and asked me would I chaperone the bus. And I told them yes. And I didn't tell, now that was in the evening after they had asked me, after I got off of work. And I didn't tell nobody, nothing. Whether I was going, whether I was not going. If I had a known I was going, I would still wouldn't have told them because it wasn't their business. It was my business, you see. And I was doing that because I felt like it was my duty to do that. Leslie Brown: Now, why would you not tell anybody? Margaret Turner: Well, I didn't know whether I was going or not. That was the main reason. Oh no, I didn't tell nobody. I mean, because nobody else asked me. And at that time I said I didn't know what I was going to do. I mean, because I didn't know whether they needed me or not. Leslie Brown: So they asked you if you would chaperone a bus. Margaret Turner: Yes. Leslie Brown: And you decided that you would. Margaret Turner: Yeah. Leslie Brown: And you decided to go? Margaret Turner: Yeah. Leslie Brown: Did you tell anybody you were going to go after they decided, after they asked you, did you tell anybody or did you just get up the next day, you go. Margaret Turner: I didn't have nobody to tell because I was home. Not unless I told some of the kids or something because some of them was going too. The biggest majority of them was gone, children was gone. Those that he wanted to go this time because sometimes he would take, some of the other kids. Wouldn't take them all at one time, maybe this year he would take these and next year he would take a few more. Sometime the same ones would go with some more added on, some new ones added on. I didn't tell him. I didn't tell anybody because nobody but my mother and my children at home. Leslie Brown: So when you went to the bus and who else went? Who was on the bus? Margaret Turner: Ms. McLaurin and Ms. Hughley from the library at Central and Mr. Hill from Durham Business College. That's all, and myself. Leslie Brown: Just a small group. Margaret Turner: Of us. If anybody else went, they didn't go on the bus. They went on their own. Leslie Brown: And did you know what was going to happen? Margaret Turner: No. Well, I'm going to say it this way. I'm not trying to be smart, I can't bless what was going to happen. Whatever happened was going to happen because I didn't even think about fearful or you being fearful of my life, anything. That was my least worry. I hadn't even thought about that. I thought right where I was going and the purpose I was going for. Leslie Brown: Did you think a lot of people would be there? Margaret Turner: Oh yes, sure. But the main thing was you see the White people thought that we were going to raise sand and make little of ourselves. And I don't know how they felt about it but I don't think they liked that too Well, because they always thought of, they were taught that we were ugly and deeds and things. And we proved to them that we were intelligent people. And you didn't find nobody out there that didn't look intelligent or didn't or wasn't intelligent. Leslie Brown: Did people dress up? Margaret Turner: Casually, yes. Leslie Brown: Yeah. Casually. Margaret Turner: Yeah. We wore casual clothes, just like skirts. Leslie Brown: It was a long drive. Margaret Turner: And tops and nice cotton dresses. And some had on overalls and different things like that. Nobody dressed up. Leslie Brown: What did you think when you got there? Margaret Turner: Well, when we got there, the Klan met us. The Noxy Klan, I guess it was the Noxy met us at the entrance and the policemen was there to shove them, take them on the paddy wagon. Just fast as they would come in or surround the area where we was, the policemen would gather up. And I didn't think nothing of that either, I didn't think a thing of it. I just knew where I was and anything could happen but I didn't have anything happening on my mind. Just like I told you, I was impressed on where I was going. I felt like that I was doing something big, something great. That's the way I felt. Leslie Brown: There were a lot of people there. Margaret Turner: Oh, I know it was a lot of people there. Leslie Brown: People from all over the country. Margaret Turner: I know it. And I saw them Hawaiian people. And I saw those people out from other countries like North and South Dakota and Maine and, oh honey. And everybody was so patriotic, you know what I mean? And everything was just great. It was so great. And then too, what made it great also was all of these buses, they came from New York because A. Phillip Randolph had gotten these buses and they didn't charge the people nothing to come on them. Looked like to me, they had a caravan of 15 or 20 of them, maybe more. And during that time, my daughter was in New York. She was in college at the time and she was working in New York at that time. She had a friend, she's a librarian at Central, Viola Williams. She used to be a Sanders. And she's in at the library in Central right now. Margaret Turner: And they were all friends. They were classmates at that time. And so her brother was a policeman in New York and they were living with him and they got little old jobs. They saved that money because he helped him and they saved that money, they didn't have to spend that money. And so they all come down because they were star supporters too of the NAACP. Just like I was, and so it was just great. It was just great. I just met a lot of people and from just everywhere. Margaret Turner: And I had just started. Had I started with my hat at that time? I don't think I had. I told you once before, or yet the other day that we had patriotic hats on with the vest. I still got mine. I can't even get around me. And how it was made with the front of it, just like Uncle Sam wear. That's what we had on. That kind of garb, with the hat and the pressed apron, that's what we had on. Leslie Brown: That must have been something. Margaret Turner: It was. And we three together, people together had on the same thing. And everybody was getting our pictures. Everybody. We weren't thinking about no pictures at that time. Leslie Brown: So that was you and Bessie McLaurin and Sadie Hughley? Margaret Turner: No, I can't talk about them because they didn't do nothing. Uh-huh. (laughs) I didn't see them anymore. Leslie Brown: Oh, okay. Margaret Turner: I was with the kids. Leslie Brown: Oh, you were with the kids? Margaret Turner: Yeah, I was with the kids, see, because usually when they went somewhere. You have to wake them up if you're going somewhere. Just if you're going to a convention or something. And they were on the chaperone bus with me, I'd have to leave the caucus meeting to go and get them. Leslie Brown: To go and get Mrs. Hughley? Margaret Turner: Yeah, and Bessie McLaurin. Yeah, they'd be laying up that street. And then I would go. See, I know the caucus meeting started at seven o'clock. You're supposed to be there. If you didn't, you had to pay a fine. It won't be 25 cents. But yet still, you didn't want not pay no fine for being late, did you? Leslie Brown: That's right. Margaret Turner: And I have to go and get them. And Mr. what's his name from the Mutual? He was our treasurer. What's his name? Leslie Brown: Harris? Margaret Turner: No, Funderburk. Mr. Funderburk. Leslie Brown: Oh, Funderburk? Margaret Turner: Yeah. Leslie Brown: Oh. Margaret Turner: Funderburk's in Atlanta now. I think he's president at one of those banks, I believe, isn't it? Leslie Brown: I think so. Margaret Turner: Well anyhow, he was one of our chaperone, he was our treasurer. He held the money. He would bring the money to me every day to distribute out to the children. And that one particular day I went, when I had to go to the cops meeting and I come back and after them. After I seen they weren't there, I said I better go and see where these people are. And I went and I left. When I left, they had a person sitting at the door. So if you were late, you'd have to put your money in. And so after going after them, and when I come back, the guy wanted to charge me a quarter. And I told him, I said, "Look." I said, "Go get Kelly." Kelly Alexander, he's president of the state. Leslie Brown: Kelly Alexander. Margaret Turner: Yeah. I said, "Go get Kelly." I said, "Kelly know I was here." And so he let me in because Kelly knew I was there. Kelly knew me. Kelly had been knowing me. He knew me by the work. And he knew me by my people in Charlotte because my mother's cousin in Charlotte, they were college students together and they knew each other. And so when I would go to Charlotte to see, I'd always go to bees and we'd talk about Kelly and it was just wonderful. And so Ms. Hughley, and then I mean, they weren't no good. I mean as far as they just went, I think they just went for the ride. Yeah, just to say they went, you know what I mean? But they were a whole lot older than I was because Ms. McLaurin was just about a hundred when she died. And she was grown, I reckon teaching school when I come along. Leslie Brown: Did you hear the speeches at the March for Washington? Did you hear the speeches? Margaret Turner: Yeah, I was there. I saw the lady when she fell in the pool. Fell in the water, yeah. But I never seen so many people in my life. And you thought you would think that everybody there was walking, but they weren't walking. I mean just, I said this whole section of this house here, probably people were laying down, but you couldn't tell it until you got on them and you couldn't tell it. Margaret Turner: Looking through the crowd and a beautiful site, this minister from Virginia, what's part of Virginia was that, was it Prince? What was the name of that? But anyhow, he had all these Black students there, little children and all he had there. And for the purpose of what? I can't remember because it was so many people there. I don't know whether it was something happening in Virginia pertaining to the children or what it was. But anyhow, he was there with them. But he was a White guy, White minister. And so they were mixed up. I mean, it was just as many of them there as it was us. Yeah, it was very educational. You can't ever forget things like that. Especially if it meant anything to you. Leslie Brown: What did you learn? What did you learn? Did doing to the march change anything you believed? Margaret Turner: Well, it haven't been too many changes made. Leslie Brown: Did it change anything you believed in though? Did it change your mind about anything? Margaret Turner: Well, my mind was already set. Leslie Brown: I knew you were going to say that. Margaret Turner: Huh. You did. Leslie Brown: You were going to say that. Margaret Turner: Yeah, my mind was already set so I mean, well nothing because I, what was done was something that I wanted done, and something that I already had a party in. And I felt like that, I mean, it wasn't anything—I mean, it wasn't anything that I really had to have. You see what I mean? But being alerted and being a little more informed, that helped. Leslie Brown: What did you think of Martin Luther King? Margaret Turner: I thought he was great. It was so many others, that I won't speak of the others there. I thought he was great because I thought he had a lot of spunk and they chose him to be their leader there. And he was just outstanding in my estimation. And he just seemed like, to me, he was just a kind and amiable person. I had met him at the convention in 1962 in Atlanta. He was there at that time. And because I was placed on the time and place committee at the convention. My children got me on, because I had a lot to offer. And they really see that me that I have a lot to offer. So I think Beverly sees about it, me too. Yeah, she's just thinking it. Nobody like me. Leslie Brown: What about some of the other speeches? Did you hear some of the other speeches too? Margaret Turner: Yeah, but it's been a long time. But I brought back material. I have material from just about everywhere I went. I brought, I had so much material, I had to buy me a new duffel bag. And I get home with that stuff. And I got stuff from Atlanta and I got material from the other places I went. And the last time when I went to Miami in '81, at a convention in '81, I had to buy me a new bag. I bought me a new duffel bag and I didn't know I had to pay for that bag, see I didn't, when I made my ticket, I bought my ticket. I just had three bags, you see. And that's all I supposed to have going back. And I had to pay $50 to bring that backpack on the Eastern Airline. And the people on the Eastern Airline were so impressed with me because I had my hat on. But it wasn't full of buttons like that, it was smaller. I had just started putting it together. And so I always brought material back and I could always go to my places. I got stuff everywhere. Leslie Brown: Why have you collected so much material? Margaret Turner: It was part of me. I guess that's all I can say was it was part of what I wanted it to be. I mean, I got a lot of input. A lot of just, like I said, it was most educational, you see, because bringing all that material and stuff back, I read a lot. And a lot of times I read and I don't read what I should and I go back. Sometime, I just go back and just get me a pile and I go through it. That's the reason I save all my newspaper clippings that I need because a lot of times I go back and find things that I hadn't read. I mean, this interests me. Leslie Brown: Why do you think you were so interested in issues and you're so interested in reading and you go to the NAACP meetings. What is it that has made you so interested in these things and so many other people not interested? Margaret Turner: Well, it wasn't me, it was so interested. It was my leadership, my mother and my grandmother that instilled a whole lot of this in me because I know, I don't know how Mama felt, but I remember doing my childhood before we came to Durham on Saturdays. Some Saturdays Mama would let us go. My sister and I let us go and babysit for a White family. The mother wanted to go shopping or something and so she would let us go. And I was the type of person that, I don't know why I was like I was, unless it was the leadership that I got. I was born with it, one or the other. But in the meantime, I remember this incident that happened. My grandmother, as I told you, was half White. And so mama would let next day or maybe a couple of hours, attend to the little boy for the lady. Margaret Turner: And then, because Mama knew everybody and everybody in Sanford knew all the Black people too. I mean, especially the ones that they wanted to know. And so what happened when she brought me home, my grandmother was sitting on the porch. And so she asked me. They always had cars, but we didn't have a car. But when my mother came along, they said they had a horse and buggy, but they had rubber tire on it, she said. And her family was just about the only family that had one like that. Margaret Turner: They had them, but they didn't have the rubber tires on the cars had. But in the meantime, she asked me who that was on the porch. I said, "That's my grandmother." And she said, "Oh, she don't have the knotty nigger hair, does she?" And I went on in the house, I told Mama and I told Mama, I said, "I'm not going back." She said, "I know you're not." See what I'm saying? "I won't go in no how." Mama would have had to whip me. I didn't think—you know with the family that I come from, I didn't think she would accept that. Leslie Brown: So your mother wouldn't accept bad treatment? Margaret Turner: No, because I told her what I wasn't going do. And I was supposed, I wasn't old enough to be telling her what I wasn't going do. I said, "I'm not going back there anymore Mama." Said, "I know you're not," so that meant that everything was settled, I wasn't going back anymore. And I didn't. So I guess that's part of it too, part of the happenings in my lifetime that made me see as far as how have seen. And I'm still the same way now. I don't take my wooden nickles. I mean, I'd be nice to people if they'd be nice to me. But I don't go around trying to make them be nice to me or I do the best I can. So if you want to go along, okay, if you don't, just your business. So that's the way I felt. Well, I think that's one reason why. Leslie Brown: So what lessons did you learn from your grandma? Margaret Turner: Well, I told you the other day I learned Bible verses. I learned how to be modest. I've learned how to have a character. I learned how to love and treat people respectively. I learned all of that. And from my mother also, I got a lot of training at school. I got a lot of training before I even come to Durham. Most all of the training that I have now, come from my early childhood because we had teachers that would instill these things into you. And in the meantime, in a little town like that, we had a Black newspaper at that time when I was coming up. That's right. We had a Black newspaper. I got a clipping of it right now, part of it. But it's real old. Margaret Turner: And that's why my grandmother's funeral arrangements were made in that paper, Sanford Enterprise, that was the name of it. And those people that, the lady that entered that paper was, her name was Plymouth McCoy. And her sister was a teacher. Her sister was a primary school teacher because we had to go to the prim-er. They called it the prim-er, which you might call a pri-mer. But at that time we called it the prim-er. That was just kindergarten before you went to the first grade. And when you come out of the primer and went into the first grade, you knew just as much as the children and the fourth grade. See what I'm saying? Because the teachers were very stern and the children could eagerly learn and it didn't take much for them to learn because you can teach your child almost anything when you're young, can't you? Leslie Brown: So the teachers paid a lot of attention to the students. Margaret Turner: Oh sure. Leslie Brown: Your mother gave you a lot of, a strong sense of race, pride. Margaret Turner: Oh yes. Leslie Brown: And your grandmother taught you other kinds of things. Margaret Turner: Yes. Leslie Brown: How did your grandmother teach you? Did she teach you? Margaret Turner: How did she treat me? Leslie Brown: Did she teach you these things? How did she get you to know and understand? Margaret Turner: Well, when I was the only one that would be around her all the time, I was the one that hung around her all the time. Because as I told you, when I was born, I was born premature. At that time they didn't have incubators, especially for us. And so I had three grandmothers too look after me doing my growing up or living, I say it that way because I guess if it hadn't been for them with the attention they gave me and God's help, I probably wouldn't have made it. And after I made it in six months on a pillow, that's the way they had to handle me because I was that delicate, see? And so they all had a party in that, my three grandmothers. And this one was with me this great-grandmother, she was with me. Margaret Turner: Mama had her, but she was older because she was 50 years old when my grandmother was born. And so that made her a whole lot older than I was when I come along because she was just about ready to take the bed at that time because she was the mother of Fair Promise AME Zion Church in Sanford, North Carolina. I said that way because she take, so I remember the picture that the family had, and I was with my grandmother. I was standing between both of them. My great-grandmother was my daddy's grandmother and my mama's grandmother. Margaret Turner: But my daddy's grandmother was a Presbyterian. And some of my family's Presbyterian, some is Baptist, and some is AME Zions, and some is AMEs. So that's just the way that's it was. And so as I grew up, I would stay in the bed. I would fall over in the bed behind grandma and she would sing to me. I told you about the music and I came about, he would sing to me. And I caught on. I caught on. And when I was about seven, eight years old, I sung solo at the pastor's daughter's wedding. I Love You Truly. I will never forget that song. I was just singing it. She had me to sing at her wedding at the church. So I was always into something. I always put myself into things through the years. Margaret Turner: Anything that I thought was constructive, something that I thought that would—I say enhance my life and make me be a little better living person, you know what I mean? And so that's one reason why I guess I'm like I am today with her teachings and my mother's teaching. But she had more time with me than my mother did. See my mama had to work and see I could the rest of them out there playing, the others out there playing rather. And I'm over there in the bed with her trying to, I didn't think about learning anything, but it just happened. So I guess that's the way the Lord had a plan for my life. But I'm still not satisfied with conditions. It's too much. I just asked the Lord to let me live and let me see a little better change than what we have. And anything that I can do to help that change, I do. Leslie Brown: Do you think that there has not been much change? Margaret Turner: No. No, it hasn't been much change, because what they wanted to give us in the beginning was just a one person, maybe in the kitchen, in the café, behind the counter. That's not what we wanted. We want, I wouldn't say integration. We wanted our equal opportunities and our rights, that's what we wanted. And we didn't want the mergers of the schools. We didn't want—on the side I'm going to get that. We wanted equal opportunities in the schools instead of giving us the leftovers, like the old books and things. We just wanted our rights. We wanted the same opportunity that they had, you see. But they decided that it was better for us to come to them, you see? Margaret Turner: And so now they got a controversy over something else. I read this morning in the paper where they, with this lady, , I think she said her son was a student at Hillside. And I think she's White and so she's on Phillips, she's on him right much about getting things straight because she seemed to think that the guidelines pointed back here where we were. See what I mean? And the integration hadn't been a success because I mean, as far as the balance in of the students in different schools, you know what I mean? But what he did, he went by the communities they live in. Margaret Turner: And so they have a lot of controversy over that now. And everything haven't been like it's supposed to be. And I don't think it will until they, I don't know how they're going to do it because they've already messed up the school board. They got that now. And so our hands is tied there with the three Black members we have and the four they have White and quite naturally they all going to cater together. So Dr. Jones was saying that she thought they had already had all this stuff together before they come to the meeting. That what you said in the book, in the paper? Leslie Brown: Mm-hmm. Margaret Turner: Yeah, they had that all planned. Yeah, they had that all fixed up. Sound just like it though. Leslie Brown: It does. Margaret Turner: Yeah. So I still said that we're lagging behind. And then too, on the other hand, we needed a Black superintendent of the schools too, because we had one good one over there to Durham High, Thompson. And I was hoping that he was going to be here selected, but I don't know why. Phillips didn't need the money. He didn't need the money. And he come from up there in High Point and you can tell he's a redneck by looking at him. Whether he's one or not, he look like one, okay?