- Now it's on. - Okay, so do you remember Take Back the Night? - Sure. - You know we did marches and this group of women, well, I wanted to say something. Because when I was in Ann Arbor, that was the first time I was in a conscious-raising group. Now the conscious-raising group that I participated in then, opposed to Gainesville, because Gainesville, it was before conscious-raising groups per se occurred. (crosstalk) the group of folks that I was with. I mean they were strong women. They were concerned and wanted to mentor women, which of course they did with me. But the focus, very clearly, was civil rights. It wasn't gender issues. - So maybe it really was a little bit past you, 'cause they put ads in the paper. - Mm hm. - In Gainesville, but I don't know if it was '68 or '69. - It might've been-- - '69, maybe it was '69. - Yeah, so '69 I was gone. But, so the point that I'm making is that this conscious-raising group that I was a part of, you know, they didn't have very much awareness of women that weren't privileged. And I'm using that word intentionally, because I had two small kids. I had very limited income and they never thought of the fact that when they came to these meetings, their husbands took care of their children. So what I did was I left Carl and Gregory at the trailer. I put 'em to bed and I would go to that, but I would be a nervous wreck the whole time, because no one was with the kids. And so for me, the same thing occurred in Nashville because I had a boy child and there was this big issue about whether boy children could participate. Well I couldn't do any of the events if they couldn't participate, because I had nobody to babysit Carl. - Separatism was a very big issue at the time, because I was subjected to a lot of stuff too, because I had the audacity to choose to have boy children. - And to be with a man. - Yeah. - Even though I was gay. But the point I'm making is that I always took the seriousness of these issues with a little grain of salt from that standpoint. Because I knew that people talked a good game but it wasn't always necessarily accurate from life. So for instance, this group of radical lesbians-- - Radical white lesbians. - Radical, you know, we all met-- - This is in Ann Arbor? - No, this was in Nashville. I've skipped from, the Ann Arbor one was about me having to leave my children at home in order to go to conscious-raising group. But this thing in Nashville was true as well because I had two boys and I kinda had this separate life that was as a mother of two boys and lesbians. So we were organizing this group of women and everybody was going around and talking about their, whatever they wanted to say at the beginning of this organizing of this lesbian group. Well, I'd like to think of myself as funny, so when it got to me I said I wasn't a lesbian, I just slept with one. They didn't think that was funny. I, on the other hand, thought it was hilarious. But there was dead silence in this room. Because that was so unpolitically correct. And I was just making a joke, you know, but it wasn't-- - This is 19 - This was a little too close to the bone. (laughing) - It reminds me of that cartoon, you know, where the one woman is saying, "Do you know the woman's movement has no sense of humor?" And the other one is saying, "No, but hum a few bars "and I'll fake it." (laughing) - Yeah. - So, but, from a serious standpoint, that was significant for me. That lesbians, women, women of color, women of lower income realities, - Women out of the prisons. I worked, I used to do a book group at the women's prison in Nashville. And because I'm always, it was a very sad time for me. I also had the Attorney General folks approach me about talking to sex offenders in the criminally insane prison out on Murphy's Burrow Road. I think they've moved it now. But the point is that, you know, we, and I'll say this about the four of us, are privileged. And there were many, many women who aren't privileged, who, being able to look at gender issues, was much less of an intellectual pursuit than it might have been for us. And I was always aware of that. The bookstore, I think, exemplified that a lot, because we would have people come in from Hartsville, or from, oh God, some of the little towns around Nashville. And these women were, in real life, in need of support, and appreciation of their lives that was much more easy for us. And I sort of balanced on a line, because of my, the experiences I had with my ex-husband and the difficulties of trying to get child support through the courts. This was before they were as serious about collecting child support as they are now. And when I went to the University of Florida and Wayne and I separated, I went to see if I could get student housing. And the woman that saw me told me under no circumstances would they consider a single woman being allowed to get single, married housing, because it would be a crisis with the men. And that I was undesirable. Flat out. And nobody thought anything about it. So I guess what I'm saying is that I think that in Nashville, what I got to do, in both the bookstore, you know, the record distribution, the concerts, all those kinds of things, is we went to great lengths to make sure that people on the whole scale of income were not excluded from participation. - That was the first thing I heard about you when I heard about the bookstore. WomanKind Books, and it's not a rich white woman's thing, and that they did a particular consideration to class and income, and-- - So. - All the variables that get ignored. And then even when I went to Chicago was something that was of great concern to me. Which is that the world is not just made up of white rich women. - Educated. - Huh? - Educated white-- - Edu, right. And that sometimes in our educatedness, we don't realize our own, God what is it the word I wanna use? We think everybody's like us, and they aren't. So that was always important to me, because of my, of the boys that I had and the youngness, and the lack of support that I had in the culture, made a difference for me. But the timeframe there was I got in '69, it sounds like we were in similar places just next to each other. You know, that mine was really coming from the Methodist Church, yours from the Women Center and your school stuff and that kind of thing. But Nashville was a little town then. There weren't any decent place to go out and eat and the business, the women's, the music industry had some really strong women in it. That was also something. Who is the woman, she's in New York now, and she's much younger than me, I'd say 10 years at least younger. Her mother was head of the company, the organization that pays, like if your songs are performed. - Oh, SGaP? - SGaP. She was head of SGaP and this woman moved to New York just 'bout the time that I moved to Chicago. Young woman? - Wasn't in New York then. - Allison. Allison. - Oh my gosh, that name sounds familiar. Allison, what is her, I'll have to find her last name. But these are young women in the music business that their parents or their relatives, those folks were very successful. The Bluebird. - Cafe? - Yes, what is, what is her name? I'll just tell you this story about this woman. Her mother, there were two girls. (mumbles) - No. I'll tell you in a minute. Allison, no what was her name. - She's not a musician, she's in the music business. - Yeah, well this woman had the Bluebird and has just sold it in the last few years. But that was a phenomenal place, if you-- - The Bluebird was a woman-owned business? - Yes. - Oh yeah. - Oh yes. And she bought Sprouts from me. That restaurant was phenomenal in terms of people being heard by people in the music business who then might be interested in them and get them to record and those kinds of things. I mean it's like known around the country. - That's still true. - But she sold it recently. - It was really one of the only places in Nashville-- - At that time, right. And this isn't a good example of the kind of strong female energy. It was in, I think Nashville, her mother, I'll think of her name, I just let go of it. Her mother and father, they came to Nashville because of the industry. And he was extremely successful in the industry. Okay, they were Jewish. They were Jewish, extremely attractive, well-off, bright, and she was blackballed, because she wasn't part of the Christian thing that was very important in Nashville, and I guess probably still is. - She, Allison? - No, no, no, the woman's, the mother of the woman that we're talking about-- - Of the Bluebird? - Of the Bluebird. And her name was Amy. I'm tryna remember their last name. I'll remember it in a minute. I'll call Joanna and find out what it is. Anyway, this woman, the way that I got to know 'em was on 2nd Avenue, she had been blackballed. Now instead of crawling in her hole and saying nobody liked her, you know, it was all blah blah blah, she just kept going. So what she did was she rented this big warehouse on 2nd Avenue. Now this is before 2nd Avenue was developed as, it was actually Gayle and I considered buying a bar on 2nd Avenue. I wish I had bought that bar. (chuckling) But, oh God wow, almost had a name. Anyway, she rented this huge building and rented it out to small business. And we wanted to open a second unit in Downtown, so WomanKind Books, for a while, had a store there. - Didn't know that. - Yep, we did. And so I was down there one day and I was, she was very funny, because she was very well-off, but you would never know it. She had a big broom. She would sweep the floors and talk, and you know that kind of, and so I was talking to her one day. God what's her name, I can see her so perfectly. Anyway, I was whining to her about somebody doing me wrong or something, and she says, "Well Carolyn," she says, "you know what? "This is what I've learned." She says, "People are no damn good." That's what she says, she says, "People are no damn good." And I'm like, "Really?" Because I knew that as much as I was interested in service, so was she. She says, "People are no damn good. "So what you have to do is you have to get up in the morning "and you gotta look in the mirror, "and you gotta say people are no damn good. "And then you gotta out on your britches "and go out and do what you gotta do." That comment has gotten me through many a bad day. And, that's what she did, and that's what she did with these girls. Because all of them became quite successful in-- - What girls? - Her daughters. - Oh. - One of whom is the Bluebird owner that probably introduced, I don't know how many women as performers, that became best-selling performers. - So it's Amy's mother who was blackballed? - Yes. Yes. Because she didn't fit in with the, and her husband was extremely successful and at a very high position in a recording company, CBS or something, I don't know. CBS, 'cause that was actually Virginia, I think it was another. But the point I'm making is that they, that generation of young women in the music business in Nashville is phenomenal in terms of the success that began to occur. The same time, same timeframe. Because just prior to that, I ran for office during this timing, just prior to that, the first time that Marshall Chapman ever supported somebody running for office was me. And it was at the Bluebird. And she said, "You know, you have to go out and vote." And she talked about it for a few minutes. That never happened two years prior to that in Nashville. So that was an important time. - And what time is this? Is this still '70, '75. - No, this would've been probably '80. Tryna think of when I ran for office. It must been early '80s. - I mean that stuff about Amy's mother and all that, when is that? - That would've been the late '70s, '79, '80, something like that. We opened the store-- - That's why I didn't know about WomanKind, I was in Minneapolis. - Now when did you open the store? - 70, let's see Gregory was hurt in '75, I went to (mumbles) '76, '77. - '77, (mumbles) glad about that meeting, 'cause I couldn't remember exactly-- - Say those dates again. - What dates? - What was in '77? - '78. - Okay, in '77, and I probably started working on it, actually what happened is, there is a woman, and I'll have to get you her name, and I'm sorry I can't remember, I was freaking out coming over here. She had begun to buy feminist books and she would go to conferences and sell the books. And I met her at a conference. And I can't even tell you what the conference was, and we started talking. And I was talking about I really, you know, I was in divinity school and I was sick of the male stuff. I really wanted to do something connected to supporting women. And so, she said, "Well why don't we open a storefront, "and I'll just sell you half of the business." And so that's what happened. That's how woman. I went and found a store spot over on Belmont. And this is a perfect example of my city, because-- - '77 is when you opened WomanKind Books? - Yep. - And where is it? - It's on Belmont. - On Belmont, 'cross from Belmont College, which the state changed substantially now. But, what happened is that she and I didn't get along and so I ended up buying her out. Her husband was going to Fisk to become a dentist. And she'd been doing this, going to-- - So, wait a minute, she was a partner with you? I thought she sold you half the books. - No, what happened is she had, she didn't have WomanKind but she had, she sold feminist books at different events. - Flexibilities. - Right. And I met her and we just talked, and I don't remember all, how long it took, but over a period of time we talked. Like maybe I helped her take books to, and I was looking to do something, and I thought doing a feminist bookstore would be great. And so what happened is, I bought half of her stock. But we were partners, when we first opened she was there with me. And we didn't, as in many cases, in a small business like that, we didn't see eye-to-eye about how to do it. And I was in a situation where I could offer to buy the rest of her stock and I did. But that was like a six month period. I think, the first six months. Or first three months, or something like that. She had a very different picture of what she wanted to do than what I wanted to do, and I don't remember the details of it. But it's a typical partner story. - Okay. - And Joanna didn't get involved involved doing the bookstore for a little while. She was teaching at St. Bernard's. - You were with her? - That was my-- Yes. - Already with her? (chuckling) I'll have to tell you a story, 'cause this is Ariel, I don't know if you ever see Ariel. I had never been with a woman, okay. Never. But I don't let little things like that interfere with my desire. And I was very interested in Cheryl Besas and Cheryl Besas wasn't available. Because we didn't know that Gayle was doing her wrong. - Right. - And what happened is, she had a meeting of people interested in owning, or running, or starting a woman-owned business. Now this was before the bookstore. I was at divinity school, I believe. Might even been before divinity school. But Gregory was hurt. So it was after June of '75. So Cheryl invites me to this meeting, which of course I am very interested in attending. (chuckling) And I could care less about women's bookstore or anything. - You hadn't thought about it then? - No, I hadn't. - I mean, I wouldn't say that I wasn't interested in women's bookstores, but I wasn't interested in a women-owned, that was not my primary motivating factor of getting me to this meeting. And Joanna was there. - Was she out? - Yeah, she was in her, you know, she was in her, oh God what am I wanting to say? Militant stage. - Oh, okay. And so what happened is she was so good looking. 'cause she had taken that, you know out in Hartsville, you know remember John and Emily. - Yeah. - You don't know, well anyway, they had let her use this land and she built a house on the side of the hill. - Oh, I remember that. - And she had muscles and she was so cool. (laughing) - Yeah she's beautiful anyway. - And she had long, anyway, I was like quite, well I wasn't smitten, 'cause I was really interested in Cheryl. - Right. - But that's where I met her. And she was real neat. And she walked me out to my car afterwards, and I thought well hmm, this is (mumbles) woman. That was it. Then I left, and I'm friends with Gwen Billack, who had the photo lab. And I went down to Gwen's business, like three days after that, and there was something I had to pick up, drop off, I don't remember. But anyway, I went in and who comes out of the darkroom but Joanna. And so Joanna goes, "Would you like to go to lunch?" Well I couldn't go to lunch. I don't remember what I was doing but I couldn't go to lunch. And I thought, that woman's interested in me. (laughing) - And so, you know I left, and like a week later, what happened is, where that bar, the other side, and the church, there was a group of lesbians, and so they had gotten me to go with them on Sunday afternoon to this other side. So I cannot remember why, by myself, I went to the other side. - Can't imagine that. - But I did it. And I had my little purse and everything. And in fact, I should have never, I had a lesbian try to pick me up, and when I didn't go with her, she took my purse. It had my keys in it. - It was a rough place. - Yeah. - That place was raided by the police numerous times. - I threatened the manager. I said, "You're either taking me home "or I'm calling the police." I mean I wasn't that mellow. So somehow I knew that a group of women were going down there. So I went down there by myself, and went in, and Ariel Coleburn asked me if I wanted to dance. And I went onto the dance floor with her and was dancing and somehow ended up dancing with Joanna. And ariel disappeared into the, and you know, then we were history. (chuckling) - That was quick. (chuckling) - Well you know, when you haven't been a lesbian, you are quick. (laughing) - You are quick and the next day it's the U-Haul. - Well we almost got there. I mean we didn't, because of the circumstances I was in until we moved over on 20, 'cause I lived in Madison. Madison, Tennessee. Dinwiddie Drive. She used to come and visit me in her little Volkswagen and we would have to push it off in the morning. - Yeah. - That was love. That was mad love. - And you were just moving into the new house when we had that meeting. - Yep. - 'Cause I remember there was almost no furniture-- - We had never did have very much. For the support project, we had 150 women that came. I don't know if you know that. And it was straight and lesbian. - Okay now, we're coming back to the topic of the project. - Right. - Okay. - The activism. You had said that WomanKind Books was spread out, influenced other things so the woman, this support group. Need to talk about that. I need to hear about what it was and why it was. - Okay, so, what one of the things, okay, so what happened was that I went to divinity school. I couldn't stand the male stuff. I met other women like Kris Mottisher, and Della Hughes, and folks from the, from Edgehill United Methodist. We went to conferences, you know, where Mary Daily was. There was just a lot of bubbling up of feminism at the time in Nashville. I went, I had a son that got electrocuted and lived for a year, never gained consciousness. That was when the stuff... And before that, I had never been a lesbian. I mean, maybe in my heart, but nowhere else. - This is 1975 right? - This is in 1975. So what happened then that I was a representative from Edgehill to a conference that happens every year with Methodists. And I represented Edgehill United Methodist. And there was a night meeting, and the night meeting was over at Scarritt College, I wanna say it's Scarritt College, I might be wrong about that. And a woman from New York, from the women's division, see the Methodists, at that time, out of New York, out of the national offices were very, very invested in supporting women. And integrating them into participation in organizations and activism, all those kinds of things. And I actually, Randy Rogers, my friend, and Collen Water were also participants in that. - At the same meeting you went to? - Not that meeting, itself, but just that general milieu of activism within church women. Like I did, oh you know what I did? - Church Women United? - Church Women United, and let me tell you what I did. This was something I did before I was a lesbian. And I did it through Carleen. I went around to churches, and in fact, Cali Hutchinson was, and there was a strawberry blonde woman, wore short hair, what was her name? She was also at Edgehill. Anyway, I got them to participate. Carleen wanted me to do this program, which I ended up doing all over Nashville at churches. And it was about women in the church. And we got a divorced woman, a single woman, and when we could, we got a lesbian. And we had them speak to their experience in the church. Because right at, what happened is, I would get these straight women who had been very active in their churches with their husbands, their husband dies and their church cuts 'em off. And so we talked about those things in the big churches. So that was really when I started connecting with some of the lesbians at Edgehill, and got them to speak in those groups. So, we talked about the three stages of life in women. You're single, then you're married, and then you're a widow. And we talked about that, that how much of all women's lives were single. And I did all this research and we talked about that. And that was significant, even though it was straight. The focus was from straight women. Probably if we would start talking about lesbians, they all would've freaked out. - I thought you said they had lesbians on them. - I did have lesbians but I didn't advocate it. What I had them speak to was never marrying. - Oh. - Never marrying. - But you had a divorced one. - Mm hm. - Why was she talking about never marrying? - No, I had a woman who was married and then widowed. And I had a woman who never married. And then I had women that were divorced. - Okay. - And what the focus was, was not whether they were lesbians or not, but rather that in a woman's life, no matter how right she does everything, she is still going to be single in a culture that gives women value because of who they're married to. And that was because of the population. That was church women in big churches there in Nashville. But that occurred just before I went to divinity school. Just before Gregory got hurt. So Gregory got hurt in June of '65, '75. And that for me is a watershed time, because I was so devastated. And actually, that's when I got to know Jan, because Joanna lived with Jan. They were roommates. - Mm hm, sure did. - And that's how I found out, I mean I knew this Sherry person from these public meetings about where we wanted, see Sherry, and I may be saying her name wrong, was very active in the Rape Crisis Center that housed the Women's Center. - Or it's the other way around I think. - Or however. - The Women's Center, it house the rape crisis-- - Right. Right, but-- - And I'm sure I know who Sherry is, but it's-- - Yeah. And she was very radical, and Carley and all them just felt like she was just too extreme. She was quite something. And I went to several meetings where there was discussions about why we, and I probably said something about lower income and all that, 'cause I was always known for bringing that up. But that was the closest that I got until Joanna. And then Joanna had just broken up with Harrison prior to me. I mean I didn't know Harrison at all. (mumbles) So, '75 was really the beginning, I mean prior to that, say from 1970, '75, I'd done democratic organizing and the church thing. The meetings where we talked about women being single for a third of their lives. And I was on the commission for women that was a Methodist sponsored process, and then Gregory got hurt. I was working at Scarritt College. Gregory was in the hospital for seven months, and then home for five, and then he died in June of '75, no '76, June '76. 'Cause he got hurt in June of '75, so he lived almost a year, a year, in fact he did live a year. My lil' baby boy. So it was really during that time after he got hurt that I kind of, before that I don't think I, I don't think until Gregory got hurt, I really ever seriously considered being a lesbian. My family wouldn't have, you know I had so little family. It was Wayne's parents and I just, I don't know, never thought of it. And me, even after TJ, which I did think of, but that was like when I was in high school. And then I was thwarted and had to go to, who's the guy that sings "Born to Lose"? (chuckling) So I felt I was born to lose when it came to lesbians. And guess what? I'm 67 tomorrow and I still think that. (laughing) - And in a 15 year relationship. - 20, 20 with Nancy, I mean Joanne, 15 with her. I say that I am. - Not in monotony. - Yeah, not in monopoly. - Monopoly. (laughing) - But you know what, this is what I say, I am an indiscriminate failure with both men and women. (laughing) - I would so disagree with you. - Seriously. - I don't know about the men part. - I'm just making a joke - I'm gonna disagree on tape about that. (laughing) - Well, oh God, I won't say any more. (chuckles) And I have had longterm relationships pretty much. - Yeah. - It's my nature. - Okay, go back to where you were talking about, (mumbles) WomanKind Books and you met, you were talking about meeting in one of the conference, you went in together but they didn't last very long. Then you went off on how you met Kris Mottisher and Della while you were in divinity school. What did that have to do with WomanKind Books? - Okay. - There was this meeting. There was this woman from New York. - Okay. All right, let's go back. I, when Gregory got hurt, the reason that it happened, I mean that's not the reason it happened, but the circumstances of it are that I was a, the firs time that I met Chris T. was at a public meeting about the Rape Crisis Center. - He's only like seven years old, is that right? - Yeah, he was seven, just about to turn eight when he got hurt. And Carl was three years older. So prior to Gregory getting hurt, I had already started going to Edgehill, and I had already met some lesbians. And I'd already been active. I went to that meeting, Christine actually told me that's where she remembered me from. And I don't remember her that strongly, but she was involved somehow in that. And so what I'm saying is there was parallels at that time already with people that I became much more active with, shortly, unbeknownst to us that that was going to occur. I also did, at that time, I also did some stuff with nursing homes. And that was with Victoria Webb. - This is before '75? - This is before' 75. But I'm just tryna give you the pieces of activism. So the other thing is I did a lot of voter registration and I was active with this democratic women's group that was a liberal group that Carleen Waller was the queen bee of. And I'm using that term intentionally. - C-A-R-L-I-N? - Carleen, C-A-R-L-E-E-N Wall-- - I thought it was E-N-E but you know better I'm sure. - I think it's two Es. - Okay. - Waller. - Waller. And she's no longer living either. - She was the head of that democratic women's group? - Yes. And she was a force, because the democratic party itself, was more conservative, even though it was liberal relative to the state. But this women's group was really liberal. And at the same time, I was active in the Church Women United and a Methodist women's group. So all of those were supporting younger women, like myself at the time. I was a younger woman at that time. And that was where the church meetings where would talk about women's role in the church, where we would talk about they were gonna be single for a third of their lives, and got women to speak to that. And I did stuff on television, and radio, and stuff like that, connected with all that. So then Gregory got hurt. So what happened is, I went to this, this is really weird, I was a representative for Edgehill to this conference, this regional, you know, like every year they tell the ministers where they're gonna go, what church they're gonna have, and you do all the rules for the next year. That's what this was. And then every three years they have the one where everybody fights over whether they're gonna ordain ministers and all that kinda stuff, the national issues. But this meeting was at night. And, it was a required attendance and I had the boys. It was summertime and so they stayed with this friend of mine, Dona Brennon, and she had to go, she was working at, God what was the place that was, not Dollywood, but it was out on, it's not the Grand Ole Opry, but you know it was a, y'all don't remember this place? - Just skip it. (laughing) What was the woman from New York talking about (laughing) to keep withholding this? - (laughing) Okay, okay, no no no, I'm not withholding. I promise. - Okay. - Okay, I'm just-- - You're not talking about Opryland? - Yeah, Opryland. So Dona and Sarah worked at Opryland, so they had to be at work at six o'clock. So Dona took care, I'm there, I'm like five seconds from it. Dona was gonna watch the boys while I went to this meeting from this speaker from New York women's division was speaking and she was phenomenal. So I get there and I'm sitting in the church, and I'm sort of like doing this meditation thing, and I have this thought come into my mind. If I had to lose one of my children, which one would it be? This is the thought that came into my, it didn't even phase me. - Wow. - And so I'm thinking about Gregory, and then I think about Carl and I couldn't decide. And then she came, (mumbles) and spoke. And they were gonna spend the night and I was gonna come and pick 'em up at eight o'clock in the morning, because I had to go to the conference thing and I was taking them to the Boy's Club. So I'm living in Madison, Dona's house is, you know where Scarritt College was? It was the street right, I don't remember what the street was. Anyway that's where she lived. - Oh it's 24th and (mumbles). - Something like that. - Anyway that area. And so, I was driving home and I thought, I should go get Carl and Gregory. And I thought, oh no, I'll disturb Dona, she's tryna sleep. I should just wait and do what we agreed to in the morning. I go home, I get in the bed. I probably woke up four times feeling like I should go get Gregory, and I thought Gregory, not Carl and Gregory. And at eight o'clock Carl calls me screaming, he had gotten electrocuted. But, that was significant. That's a significant line for me, because I probably never would've been a lesbian. I mean, how do we know, you know if I'd met somebody and it would've whatever. But I never acted on it for the first thirty years of my life, and Joanna was so sweet to me, I mean she was really quite something. And so that was the universe provided that for me, that's how I felt. And I wanted to, when I was in, when Gregory was in the hospital, he was in the hospital for seven months, and they used to have these chaplains come around that were piss poor. You know they, first of all, they didn't know what to do with somebody that had this beautiful child that was damaged. And their whole level of spirituality was so - Lame? - Very lame. Very lame. So, I would be in this hospital and there was this room, and there was this little baby, that had the same disease that Jacqueline Kennedy's child died from. You know, where the lungs don't develop? - Mm hm. - And this little baby and Gregory were in the same room and I mostly came at night. And it was a holy space, that's the only thing I can tell you about that space. But I used to wanna kill those chaplains that would come in. And they would just spout platitudes, you know, just bullshit. And it was before I could learn to not be polite to everyone. And so, I decided that I was gonna go to divinity school and become a chaplain so that I could be in those rooms with those folks. - Do it right. - But I couldn't do it. I mean I wasn't, I didn't have the fortitude to get through divinity school. But at Vanderbilt, at that time, there was a great deal about people. There was a woman that was appointed Dean, I think of the Liberal Arts and they threw her out. And I was part of a conscious-raising group that was mostly professors. And the whole discussion of, one woman was a Dean of Students and she did her Master's on self esteem. Her focus was on artists, women artists. And the stronger their self-esteem was, the better artists they were. I thought that was interesting. So I met a lot of women at Vanderbilt. And in addition to that, before Gregory got hurt, I was active with this group, I met this guy, his name was Bill, this red-headed guy, he was a doctor. And he, I don't know where I met him, somewhere along with Carleen Waller. And they had an organization at Vanderbilt that was an outreach group for, it's how I actually met Susan Schewel and Betsy Brock actually. Because this group, they would take college students, and place 'em like in the summer to work like in a mill town or other places to help them address whatever those issues were in that town or that city. And there were a lot of stuff like that in healthcare issues in Tennessee. And so I almost went to work for them doing outreach stuff. Now that was just prior to Gregory getting hurt, and so I knew folks from that arena and they were activist. And that was where the large contingency of healthcare people came to WomanKind Support Project. - Can you just talk about that, the WomanKind Support Project, 'cause you keep referring to it, I have no idea what it is. (laughing) - Okay, so the bookstore, so what happened with the bookstore, which is WomanKind Books and-- - WomanKind is one word? - Yes. - It keeps making it two on here. - Yeah, it will do that. Wonder where I put that stuff. I'll show you. - Everybody's like that so we cannot keep them from talking. (chuckling) - Give yourself some firmness injections. Signment injections. Oh yeah. - Oh good. - And here is one of the women. One of the things we had was a monthly coffee house. - And that was the coffee house that I wrote about. - And we did this with support from the Unitarian Church. - Oh, cool. - Okay. So what happened is with the WomanKind Support Project is we opened a bookstore, okay? We developed a mailing list of women across, now this was before Amazon, this was before individual publishing houses, you could find them easily. So we developed a mailing list in the bookstore of a thousand women all over Tennessee. And people were always coming in wanting to get referrals to women doctors, to therapists, and to lawyers. I was very interested in the whole spirituality stuff. I was interested in politics. And we had men come to the bookstore at times. I can remember a guy came in, he was in tears almost. His wife was having an affair with a woman and he felt like, you know, what was wrong with him, and that kind of thing. We had women come in, they'd come in from Hartsville or from Lebanon, or even further west towards Meryll, and they would close the door, and they would like, oh my God, I'm saved. And so it was significant. We did things like, who was the woman that wrote all those, oh God what was her name? I had a letter from her because I disagreed with her and she had a temper, and she lived in the northeast, and she wrote, oh God what was her name, I wish Joanna was here, she would know. Anyway we did a book reading for her and we had probably a hundred women come to this little bookstore to get a book by her. She's well-known writer. And I can't remember her name. - What books, what kinda books? - It was biographical, it was like diaries. Wasn't diaries and she-- - May Sarton? - May Sarton, May Sarton. Someone stole a letter to me from May Sarton outta my house. - Oh God, she was such as charismatic-- - This is what happened. She came to this, she had friends in Nashville that were personal friends of her. And so when I found that out, I wrote her, and she came and did a book signing at WomanKind. She believed that women needed to be in a marriage to really understand commitment. And she said this-- - May Sarton believed that? - May Sarton. And she puts it in one of her books, and so I disagreed with her. I felt like you could be a lesbian and be in relationship and learn about commitment. I wrote her this letter. You should read the letter she wrote me back. She was a spitfire. She did not like to be disagreed with (chuckles). Someone took that letter. - Aw. - But the point is that we did those kinds of things and there was a bookstore, what was the bookstore on Hillsboro Road. - Mills? - Mills. - Oh yeah. - And you know that would be normally where she would probably have done that but she did it WomanKind Books. So the point I'm making is that for the bookstore, there was a convening of a lot of different groups. There was the Vanderbilt graduate students, there were the outreach healthcare folks from Vanderbilt, and I don't know, I'll have to find the name of that organization, 'cause it was important in that time. There were the people that lived out in the country that didn't have access to books. That was before Amazon, that was before any of those kinds of bookstores. So what happened is because we were getting this huge mailing list, we started doing a fancy catalog that we would send out to everybody. And people were constantly wanting these referrals. And so and because I knew the political folks, and I knew a, I knew the lesbians, I knew the radical feminists, and I also knew the church women, and just the average folks. I said well why don't we do something that, and we were doing those marches. - Take Back the Night. - Take Back the Night. There was something else going on politically at them time, I don't remember. Anyway, so I'm trying to remember, maybe it was Lindsay Jones that I talked to about this. And Lindsay Jones was an active person part of this Vanderbilt group. Anyway, we started talking about the fact that everybody, whether they were lesbian or not, wanted referrals to female doctors and all of that. I said, "Well what if we got a bunch of folks together to start talking about doing some of these things. And so, I can't remember the, right at that moment, that conversation, what the first step was, but what I did, and I brought this, I always keep, this is from '79, okay. And so I didn't have a chance to go through it all. - I'll go through it. - Here's three o'clock Mary Flanagan to talk about the Women's Emergency Shelter. See we, and so I'm gonna just tell ya, and I've got a lot more of this stuff, I just didn't have a chance to go through it. - Well that- - Can I tell you what my memories were, and maybe that would jog-- - Yes, sure. - (crosstalk) our memories and I don't really know how accurate mine are but I remember from where I was in the country, having heard about WomanKind, and intending to get there, and not making it. And then my friend Catherine from Knoxville, Kitty Moshell told me that there was gonna be a concert that, and I think it was you that did it, was bringing Teresa Trull and Meg Christian for a concert, and it was gonna be the first concert in Nashville by lesbian for lesbians. - Mm hm, mm hm. - And we all went to the concert. We couldn't wait. And I remember that poor woman that opened, who sang all off key and embarrassed herself terribly because she just couldn't get it straight. - See I didn't even remember that. (laughing) - Oh my gosh it was, I felt so sad for her. And then after the concert, it was gonna be like a whole weekend event. After the concert, the next day there was gonna be a big meeting at the house where you were moving into, and we were gonna try and get some things organized. And I was working at Hartsville at the time and I had just heard about Irene and was tryna find Irene. - I think she came to that. - No, she didn't, (mumbles) did. - Okay. - But I remember going to the meeting at your house and really looking forward to meeting you and the WomanKind women. And we were sitting on the floor, and we were in different rooms, and somehow or another it was rally well-organized where we changed rooms and moved around, and decided what we wanted to do, and then moved into different rooms, according to what it was people were interested in doing. And we talked about a battered women's shelter and we talked about a women's clinic. And we talked about a coffee house. - Mm hm. - And I don't remember what else, but it seemed to me there was one other thing that was discussed. - Well I know that, that's interesting, 'cause see I couldn't remember how we ended up having the first meeting. I had discussed it. One of the skills that I have is organization. I can organize groups very well. And so what happened is the information I just said to you, fits in with that, because what I did was I called Olivia and Redwood, which is Holly Neers' group, and a number of others. And at that time, Olivia was doing this phenomenal nationwide network of women label distributors. So, all around the country, we would... There was a concert in Michigan, not just the week long concert, but there were other concerts around the country that I sometime attended. And I got to know the Olivia people very well. Meg and Teresa came for that, stayed with us. We actually went on a, in fact I was gonna bring it, 'cause I had the ticket where we went, when we went white water rafting with them. Anyway, I'll let you see this. So what happened is, in the process of the bookstore, it became very clear that there were a bunch of things that large groups of women, regardless of whether they were lesbians, straight, what they were. - But they were all feminists. - But they were feminists and they wanted to have access to these things. So, the first organizing that happened was just what you said. - At that house. And that was what I wrote about for Rose was how I remember that happening because in the process of that, I was talking to a woman, and she asked what I did, and I said I was a carpenter and I was working at Hartsville. And she said, "Oh, well you must know Jan Dell, "she's a carpenter too, "but she doesn't work for Hartsville." - Right. - But I didn't know Jan Dell, but the next room I moved into, the woman I sat next to said, "Oh hi, I'm Jan Dell." - Okay, there you go. - And I said, "Oh, I've been wanting to meet you." You know and blotty blotty, and I'm a carpenter, and I work in Hartsville. And she said to me, "Oh, then you must know Irene." And it was the magic name. - Yes, and-- - Irene didn't make it to that meeting. - Right, and Sharon Lester who was a big time builder of fancy homes, - Architect. - Eventually. - But see Jan and Sharon Lester started out, Sharon Lester had a yard service. I mean it had nothing to do with building. And the 150 women that all indicated that they wanted to come in, we had two sessions. - Yeah. - Were 'cross the board. They came from all those areas that I've been spending this last several hours talking about. - And they came from other states. 'Cause I remember there were women there that came up from Alpha, because they were gonna help, because they knew about organizing these kinds of things. And there were a handful of women from other states, but it was mostly Nashville women. - Right. - And Barbara Bennett was the one that was gonna take the lead on the clinic. - Do the women's thing. Right. - The women's clinic. It was a straight woman who did the battered women shelter. - Peg Newhouser-- - Peggy, yeah. - But Peg was after the fact. - Yeah. - Peg wasn't at the initial - Yeah. - part, because the basis for the women's shelter was that for a number of years, there's a, I wanna say Lutheran or Presbyterian, something. It's a women's group and they fund organizations around the country. But they required a certain amount of seed money to come from the community or the organization that wanted to do this. So no one, and it was being done through the YWCA and the Presbyterians. And they could, - Peg (mumbles). - This was before Peg. Peg hadn't started working there yet. - Yeah, but didn't she work at-- - But she did, she went to work, she went to work for the Y. - Oh okay. - Okay. But this was prior to her actually being part of the Women's Center. - Okay. - She was hired, I don't remember exactly what her stuff was but she did come to those meetings. However, what happened is, this was through my connections with the church women. Someone came to me from the Y, Carleen Waller, and they said, the women's presbyterian, something like that, I'll have find out what the specifics were, wants to fund a women's emergency shelter in Nashville, but we have not been able to raise the money. We have to put in. Would you be willing to do that for us? I said, "Well we're starting this WomanKind Support Project, let me see what we can do. Susan Schewel, myself, Betsy Brock, there was a group of us. - Was Ann Ballard involved in that? - Ann was too young at that point. - Oh. - She came along, but right, she actually lived two doors down from me. This was before, I think, her lesbian period. - Supposed to be saying their names for Rose to get. - Yeah, but Ann Ballard's a good one too. There's a whole group of people on the street that Jan lives on no, that know about this due. Ann Ballard-- - And Cathy, there was a woman named Cathy who had blonde hair who I had a crush on but she was straight, and she ended up having an affair with Susanne Muffey, and went crazy because of it. - No, I don't know about that. - But she was also very involved in, I think the shelter. - This is what occurred. Well it's funny, a whole bunch of stuff and things occurred. Okay. So these folks from the Y and the church folks approached me and said, "Would y'all consider doing "some kind of fundraising, some kind of." And I said "Well I don't know." If I was doing it as a group, I had to deal with all the folks. You know, in other words, I didn't make commitments for other people. So what happened is we were doing the support project, and I talked to Susan Schewel a little bit, Barabara Bennet, but more Susan Schewel, Betsy Brock, a group of the divinity students. There was this woman, Ruth Zarr. There was another one. There were a bunch of graduate students from Vanderbilt. So what happened is we, I get this whole meditation. What I saw was me get you to agree to sell 10 tickets. This was before this ever became a popular system of fundraising. Get Susan to do that. So what we did was we got 10 of us. There were 10 of us in this, we were the commission or whatever you wanna call it. So there were 10 of us. And we designed this fundraiser that we did at Tennessee State, which was a black school. We did make that choice intentionally. And they have a beautiful building that is down off of Church Street, I wanna say. Anyway, it was in the downtown area, and I was able to coerce, beg, whatever for them to let us use that space. And then the 10 of us all agreed to sell 1,000 tickets. So each person, if I remember correctly, had a hundred tickets that they had to dispose of. And then they got groups from their groups to sell those tickets. And we made like $15,000, which was unheard of at that time. And so what it went to was, we already agreed with the healthcare people that we would use $5,000 of that to develop the health center for WomanKind Support Project, and that we gave the other $8,000 to the Y. They were able to submit it to the Presbyterians and then the Presbyterians matched those funds so that they had the money they needed to start (mumbles). And Cali Hutchinson was involved in that, as were-- - I lost you with the health center. Where did the health center come in? - Okay. So what happened is, the Womankind Support Project, we had these meetings where we had a whole large group of people that came indiscriminately. There were about 150 people and the only bases for those original folks were interest in a support process I guess. - Develop what we needed. That's what I wrote for you Rose. - To me-- - so this is already written up? - Yeah, well, yeah. - To meet our needs. - But, this is all the feeling that can go with it. - Okay. - Right. So what happened is, people would come to the bookstore and they would say, "Would you give me a referral to a therapist?" "Would you give me a referral to a lawyer?" "Would you give me a referral to "where I can get healthcare, see the nurse practitioner?" - All of which is lesbian-friendly. - "Are there any coffee houses going on?" "I'm an artist, do you know about other women artists?" So we got all those kinds of things. So out of that came this brainstorming about developing an organization that would be a coffee house, that would have a health center-- - And that was the meeting at Carolyn Johana's after the concert. (crosstalk) - And we had that meeting, and then we had about six other meetings. - Yeah afterwards. - Afterwards. - Right. - So that what happened is, all the therapist that wanted to meet together and talk about their issues, broke and developed their own conscious-raising group of therapists. And you know when you do therapy, how you have to have, you know, actually Susan, someone has to, I forgot what it's called. You know if Susan is my client, somehow I have to have discussions with people about the processes that go on. I'm totally screwing it up by saying it that way. But these therapist met, that came through WomanKind Support Project, and they developed processes for their own needs, such as that. I think it's called a peer evaluation, or something, I don't even know, 'cause I'm not a therapist. But there were many therapists that participated in this, straight and gay. Then there was the group that wanted to start a health center, which Barbara Bennett and Susan Schewel, you know a bunch of 'em. - So that's where that $5,000 was going? - Right. To this thing Barara Bennett-- - Right, right. And so what happened-- - and you've got Barbara's piece on that also. - Okay, did she mention Schewel, cause I don't know how to spell Schewel. - S-C-H-E-U-L. - S-H-E-W-E-L. - Okay, there you go. - S-H-E? - Double E-L. - W-E-L. S-C-H-E-W-E-L. - Okay. - And I've got her phone number and everything. I can give you, I've stayed in touch with her. - Okay. - And so what happened is they met separately, just the people that were interested in the health center. And although I was doing, at the time, I was working with Elizabeth Goober Ross and I was going across the country and getting certified to work as a member of her group. But I wasn't, the only involvement that I had with the health center was that I was part of getting certificate of need. Back then you had to go and you had to apply for a certificate of need. And you had to show there was a need for those services. And the money that we raised at that fundraiser, which was phenomenally successful in Nashville. I mean, the politicians like went crazy. Because it was a grassroots fundraiser. It was based on... We made over our expenses $13,000, which was phenomenal. And it actually created the ability for the, YWCA to start the emergency women's shelter. - And what was the event itself? It was at the-- - At my house? - That you were selling tickets to? - Okay. It was a fundraiser for the emergency women's shelter and the health clinic. - But when people bought a ticket, what did they get. - They got a ticket to come to the event. - What was the event? - What was the event? (chuckles) - Well, it was like a major cocktail party. - Oh, okay. - That's all I can tell you. It was at Tennessee State. It was in this beautiful hall, and every woman politician, a lot of men politicians, Vanderbilt professors, Vanderbilt graduate students, lesbians from every walk of like. We didn't have anyone who took their clothes off and ran around without their bras, but we did have those at the coffee house. (laughing) - And the coffee house, we had the National Lesbian Alliance that was started. - Mm hm. - And out of the National Lesbian Alliance came the A Newsletter, which was the lesbian newsletter. - Well Gayle and I did a newsletter for probably three years, and I have copies of 'em all. - That was before the A Newsletter? - It may have been for that organization, but Gayle and I did it. - Yeah, well I was involved with the coffee house. I did the coffee house. And we started the coffee house, again, as an alternative to the bar, similar to the one that we did in Knoxville, which was similar to the Cafe Chino in New York, except that we had really good performers, because it was Nashville. (mumbles) And after the first few coffee houses that we had, we kind of merged with the National Lesbian Alliance, because we were starting to make money. So we used the coffee house, and all of this is written down Rose, in the stuff I gave you. - Okay, then I don't need to be recording it. Right? - But I will say something. - So the money we got through the coffee house went to-- - Then there was approaching all these other groups so that people would come. Getting 150 people at a house on Saturday, we had three of those meetings. - Yeah. - Three of those meetings, which were the same meeting. In other words, what happened is all 150 people weren't there at that one day. But it was a large house and it was overflowing. And so then what happened is we kept track of everybody's name and how to get in touch with them. And we lost people. We also lost people because you know, there was Dr. Joe's wife who couldn't be going to an event that a lot of lesbians were going. I mean literally we had to deal with that, which is you know the whole phobia stuff. Like if they were doing something with the lesbians, they must have to be a lesbian too. - Right. - So this is held at somebody's house? - At their house. - At your home. - That's down in that piece that I gave you. (mumbles) that's the Irene piece. (mumbles) - And then the parties we had. We had great parties. - Oh, great parties at your house. - You could walk down the block three blocks away and you would know there was something going on somewhere close. - The smell of pot coming out of the house. - Well that too, probably as well. I was thinking of the decibels. - Yeah that too, and the traffic, the cars. - But what it did, in a sense, and it's like, you know all of the lesbian distributors of music and the labels all were aware of this large lesbian population in the natural area. We did the first National Women's Music Distributors Conference. All the labels came and we met for like a week. - Say that again, First National Women. - Yeah, Women's Labels Distributors. So it was like, there is a feminist bookstore in Kansas City, they came. There was a bookstore in California, you know they all, in most cases-- - Organized by Womankind or Womankind Support. - Right, well WomanKind Book, I mean we were distributors for them and so we organized that. I mean, primarily it was Jenny Berson from Olivia and me that actually organized it. And that was specifically for women distributors. And that was a pretty phenomenal concept, because what they did is they, all of these women were organized into an organization that was nationwide for concerts and record distribution. - For women's music. - That was pretty wonderful for women's music. And the way that I really got to know Susan, I already knew you for other infamous reasons. But Susan, although we did the stuff with the, what is the thing that Carol likes so much. We went several times to sell books there, 'cause I still continued to do that, to go to activities that were happening. But there was some reason I couldn't go, and so you started doing it. And you did that for a number of years for us. - Actually I didn't, I just did it one time. - One time, only one time? See I remembered it as more than that. - That was my first trip to woman's rights. I kept going back but I didn't bring boys. - And I met Susan at the coffee house, 'cause I was doing the door, along with the many other things. And I remember the night that Susan and Carol Sukas with her neck brace, and Katy and Mary Qwelski. The four of them came in together and they were four of the most adorable young women I had ever seen in one bunch in my whole life. - And look at this, now we're all old. (chuckles) But the thing that is phenomenal about this, is this was in the '70s, in Nashville, in the Bible Belt, and I think that was significant. Because we never-- - Oh yeah. - Everything we're doing for this (mumbles) project is in the Bible Belt. - Right, and I'll tell you the kinda crazy things that happened. Do you remember the two women that came from California? One of 'em got involved with Susan Schewel for a while and she left and went back to California, where you have night meetings and everybody-- - Oh, a tent meeting? - Yeah, or it'd be like a camp meeting. - Revival. - Revival. They would have a revival every year, and these two women were in the back of the bookstore and I'm hearing, all of a sudden I hear this, "Excuse me!" You know, and it was Ellen. - Ellen Hattigan. - Ellen Hagan and the other young woman. - Oh and Elise. Ellen and Elise. - That's right. Okay. - I sure do remember. - So Ellen was like, her voice was going up and up. And I go back there and there's this guy there. And I say, "Excuse me, what's happening here?" And so Ellen is beside herself. They're having this revival at this baptist church, this man has come down into the bookstore, and he has asked her where he can get a prostitute. (laughing) - I remember that. I remember that, oh my God. - Now this is in a feminist bookstore. - Yes, I remember that. - And so Ellen was about to have heart failure, right? - Oh yeah. - And I'm like, "Excuse me?" You know I'm saying, I said, "Do you know what this bookstore is?" I said, "This is a feminist bookstore. "We don't really refer people to prostitutes." And I said, "And besides, "aren't you with that baptist church? "What would they say if I walked down and told the people "that you're looking for a prostitute?" And he starts backing out of the door. And I said, "In fact, I think I'll come with you." - Oh I remember that. And I may have even been there, 'cause I was (mumbles) at the time. - And I walk with him back to this church. And I found the head of the thing, and I said, "Do you know what this guy was doing?" - Oh I remember that. You were the talk of the whole lesbian community. - So, but the point is that - Still. - the reality of that energy that was for a lot of us. It's pretty phenomenal for that time, in Nashville. Because like I said, even women performers, at that time, couldn't-- - And Carol did and I said, "No." Yes, (laughing). - I can't believe this guy. He was like, what is wrong with him? But the point is that we acted on our needs. And we're supportive of one another. And, you know, we did all the bad things too. I mean we had all the (sighs) damaged people, and damaged behaviors, and all that. But, you know in fact I got sued. I don't know if y'all know that, but there was a therapist, a therapist that lived out side of Smyrna, who worked, who was part of the WomanKind Support Project. And see that money that opened that and all that, I was not involved in that. It was done with Susan and Barbara, and I don't know what they did. You know they rented the space, all that. I did end up being the executive director of the health clinic for a period of time, but it was really because Susan and Barbara were exiting. But this therapist, you know, we had programs there. We had all kind of programs. We did the Deaf and Dine stuff. We did a whole range of programs. And this therapist worked there. And I don't know what arrangements they had about pay or anything. I don't think anybody was really paid. I think all the money went to supplies and rental. But this woman sued me. - For what? - For back wages. So I went, I had a good friend in the music, she was an attorney in the music business. And I can't tell you what her name is, but she represented me free. And they threw it out of court. - So staying at your house a lot, because I was working at Nashville Center then. And instead of having to go back and forth everyday, I would stay with you and Joanna very often. Thank you so much for those times. - Oh I loved it. (crosstalk) I said you were infamous. - It was so much fun. I remember you calling me so many times, "Joanna and I have to have a fight, "come on over so we can fight in front of you." (laughing) - Joanna and I fought all the time. - And I'd come over and I'd sit there, and you'd have your fight, (chuckles) be finished. - 'Til the next fight. - Yeah. - And Joanna and I are still together. - Yeah. - Hey Nancy! - Yeah. - You think Joanna and I are still together? - Very much so. (laughing) - She's a saint, thank God. - Sometimes we're always with this person one way or the other. - Well, I guess we'll be together 'til we die. - Yeah. - I mean we're not together, we're not lovers or anything like that, but we're-- - Why did that therapist think she was owed back wages? - The whole thing was totally bizarre. It was craziness. - But it had to do with the support project? - Yeah, it had to do with the support project. - And who was the lawyer? Who was that woman? Because she also represented Mary BJ. - Yeah. - Free in something. - She is someone I knew for years and years. - Sherry, Shelly? - No. No. - Cherry. - I'd have to look her up. I can look her up. - I can see her. I can see her with her long hair, and she was tall and thin and quite nice looking.