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We are ready to go.
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You were going to tell me about Wisdom Searches,
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your wonderful book.
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Tell me.
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First of all,
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it came about because I was asked
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to create a poster for a fundraiser
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for Re-Imagining, for the first year anniversary.
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And I gather,
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I'm a gatherer and responder in my art forms
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and I had this leaf in my studio that
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which is very interesting, it was all curled up.
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And I thought oh that's a good form to work with
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and I started the first painting
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and nine came out of it, the nine in the book
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and it came one after the other,
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just bang bang bang bang, in the middle of the night,
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or at three in the afternoon or whatever
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and then it was all done.
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Wow.
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I'm so glad you told that.
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That is wonderful, so it came out of--
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Tell them, this team that I worked for
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that publishes things, and they wrote that for
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something for, I don't remember what, and I said
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well I have these nine paintings
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and I sent them to them
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and then I told them I was interested in producing
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them as meditation cards.
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Would they have the ability to produce that
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and they wrote back and commissioned the book.
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Oh.
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And then you wrote those wonderful poems
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to go with the images.
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I did and Hariett,
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my partner, wrote the text.
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Yes, well I love how that was
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and I know you always talk about how important
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relationships are and that was certainly true with that
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whole enterprise it seemed like.
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Yes, and the material actually came from
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Elizabeth Johnson.
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But I was reading her section, Holy Wisdom.
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I'd read it and meditate on it and then I'd go paint.
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Hm, well it obviously
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was a great inspiration.
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And it did start with Re-Imagining asking you to
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Yes.
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make a poster for--
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, that was a wonderful product.
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Actually, if we could just back up--
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(laughs) And I don't know
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if any of those posters
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are still around or not.
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My daughter use to have one but it wasn't
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printed with an archival ink.
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Oh...
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And it does fade over time.
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Okay, you know I will ask about that
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at the next Re-Imagining meeting
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'cause I would love to know if they are still around.
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I know your paintings from The Gathering
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are at United Theological Seminary
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Yes.
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But I can find out about the posters.
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Uh huh.
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Wonderful.
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You know, you know could we just back up for a minute.
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I'm glad you told that story, that was wonderful.
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Could you, I just need some background information,
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could you say your full name?
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Nancy Chinn.
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Great.
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And are you lay or clergy?
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Lay.
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And what is your
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denominational affiliation, if any?
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At the time of Re-Imagining, I was Episcopalian.
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I had come from a Presbyterian background
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and many years later, probably 10 years ago,
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I joined the Catholic church, I went through catechetics,
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and became Catholic.
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So I could call myself Catholic but I do worship
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in this community in a Episcopal church.
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Oh okay, wonderful.
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So I would call myself Roman Episcopal.
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(both laugh)
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You're very ecumenical. (laughs)
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Well sort of yeah.
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When and where were you born Nancy?
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Minneapolis, Minnesota. 1940.
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Okay, and where did you go to school?
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I went to Louis and Clark in Portland for my BA
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About, hm, let's see, 52, maybe 20 years later.
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I went to San Francisco State and got a Masters in Art Ed
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and that's when I began exploring the relationship
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between art and spirituality.
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And I did it specifically because of an anthropology class
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which was called visual anthropology.
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And I was fascinated with what artists did in
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non-Christian communities to create the culture.
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And I went back to my own local, very boring
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visually boring church
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and, which grouching about about something
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and they said well
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we haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
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Would you like to show us?
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And that began my whole career of art worship.
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Wow, that's amazing.
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It all started with an anthropology course.
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Uh huh.
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What work were you doing
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at the time of Re-Imagining?
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What work?
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I was an artist.
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I've always been an artist.
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Yes.
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I was bringing money by creating art
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for religious events, churches,
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and I taught as an adjunct at PSR
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in the field of the arts and I always taught
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some aspect of art and religion
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And I know you, oh so -- go ahead.
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And what else?
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I ran around the country teaching things.
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(Interviewer laughs)
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The same thing I taught at seminary,
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just how do you create art for worship?
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Yes, yeah.
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In your presentation at the '93 Gathering you talked about
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some examples of your work and I see it
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on your website, too.
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For example, at Grace Cathedral.
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Yeah, that's a pretty old website, but yes,
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you can see some things there.
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And there is a very good book.
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You probably can find it at United,
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called Spaces For Spirit.
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Yes.
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And you'll get a lot more of my writing in that.
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Good, wonderful, thank you.
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So, when and how did you first become aware
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of feminist theology?
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That one's a very interesting question.
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I have to start by saying I first became aware
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of feminist thinking with a magazine put out
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by the Methodist church.
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And it's no longer-- the last two issues,
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the first one was on feminist thinking,
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and the second, last, one was one gay lesbian thinking.
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And then the Methodist church shut it down.
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Do you remember what it was called?
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And that was 1978.
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Okay.
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No, I sure do not, must have been '72.
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Okay.
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You know, I don't really remember exactly
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when that was.
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Ad then I just kept paying at 10 tion.
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Well, what does this mean?
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Feminist thinking.
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And I started hearing the language of normal church.
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It must have been '62.
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Because-- or '64, or something, I don't--
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because the next piece that I had was,
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my former husband was a Presbyterian minister,
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at that point a youth pastor,
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in Riverside, California,
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and a group of St. Louis Jesuits had set up
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a residence and some sort of chapel.
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They had a little monastery.
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And we used to go over after worship and worship with them.
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And it was that lovely energy of static and tune,
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and everything is decked,
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everything was so fresh.
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And then we would have lunch together and talk.
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And I'm sure that's when the seeds were planted for me,
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and I remember, interestingly, just desiring so much
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to make things like alter clothes,
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and you know the visual stuff of worship.
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But at that point I was pregnant with number two,
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we were about to move to a new parish,
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and I just buried in kids.
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Oh, interesting.
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That emerged powerfully when it did come.
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So the first thing I noticed, that I noticed,
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was that the visual things that I put in the church,
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really were a, what's the right word,
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they're very demanding.
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And they break them.
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They weren't banners that were much closer
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to propaganda, they were,
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they were interrupters.
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Say some more what you mean by that,
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that's interesting, why interrupters?
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Well because they were very mysterious.
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And they were very large.
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And you couldn't not look at them.
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And if they were,
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if the service was not, if the ritual was not
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strong enough, they overwhelmed things.
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And if the ritual was well done, they became,
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it was so integrated, and it became like an opera
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that we were in the middle of.
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And that was a very mysterious process.
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And then I was also very conscious,
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that I was doing everything out of temporary materials,
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that they were gonna disappear.
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I was not creating art that was
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what I was being taught in school was art,
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i.e. a commodity that can be invested in, purchased,
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and so forth, and a personality that goes with that.
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I was creating something, and after the first piece went up,
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I began getting all kinds of volunteers to help me make it.
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So I began doing things in community.
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And that was an interrupter.
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And I think I can imagine this,
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but how would you relate it to feminist theology?
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Because it wasn't about--
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whew, that's such a big question.
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How would I relate it to feminist thinking?
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Because it's about the community's response.
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Yes.
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Because the focus of it is not in authority
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but in response.
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Because it was open-ended, there was no
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specific meaning to it.
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So it begged multiple points of view.
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It's something people responded to emotionally,
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as well as intellectually.
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It's just so open-ended.
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That's great, that is really good.
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What was your, could you say more about your relationship
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to the Re-Imagining community?
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How that developed for the '93 conference?
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Yes, it's kind of a funny story.
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As I said, I taught a lot about stuff
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and made a lot of art for churches,
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that's how I earned my living.
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I was very busy.
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And got this letter from Sally Hill
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asking me if I would do something for Re-Imagining.
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I didn't know who she was,
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I didn't know who Re-Imagining was.
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But in the middle of the letter
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the computer somehow switched,
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and they were talking to Sweet Honey in the Rock,
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a vocal group, that they were also asking to do something.
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So I wrote back and I said well, did you want me to do
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the set design for you, the space?
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Or do you want me to teach?
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And they said, well, they wrote back
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and asked what would I teach?
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And at that point I was doing a second
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master's degree, an MFA, which is a terminal degree
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in arts, you can't get a PHD in art.
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And the critique process was so painful for me.
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I just hated it.
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Because you had to bring in new work every week
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and no matter what it was, it was torn apart.
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Not a constructive process.
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And I kept thinking, this is not the way I want to teach,
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not the way I learn.
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And at the same time I had a group
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that emerged--this is a longer story.
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This is great, I love it, go ahead. (laughs)
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I had a group that emerged out of the last
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00:13:23.869 --> 00:13:27.384
full time class I taught, from there on
271
00:13:27.384 --> 00:13:30.319
I taught it only in 10 sive 'cause I didn't have time
272
00:13:30.319 --> 00:13:33.652
to be present for every week in a class.
273
00:13:37.761 --> 00:13:40.844
So I had a group from that last class
274
00:13:42.673 --> 00:13:44.840
that wanted to keep going,
275
00:13:46.126 --> 00:13:50.297
and that class was called Making Art From Your Face.
276
00:13:50.297 --> 00:13:51.883
It was called Making Art, I'm sorry,
277
00:13:51.883 --> 00:13:53.484
making art what was that?
278
00:13:53.484 --> 00:13:54.637
From your face.
279
00:13:54.637 --> 00:13:56.170
From your face, okay.
280
00:13:56.170 --> 00:13:58.913
They were topics like birth and belonging,
281
00:13:58.913 --> 00:14:03.080
death and leaving, and I don't remember the topics.
282
00:14:06.649 --> 00:14:09.377
And they said but we don't want to make your topics,
283
00:14:09.377 --> 00:14:10.745
we want to make our topics.
284
00:14:10.745 --> 00:14:12.953
(both laugh)
285
00:14:12.953 --> 00:14:16.609
So I said, okay if I can not teach you,
286
00:14:16.609 --> 00:14:19.026
but be a part of it with you.
287
00:14:19.962 --> 00:14:23.357
So I ritualized the opening and the closing,
288
00:14:23.357 --> 00:14:26.987
and I, we made art together once a week,
289
00:14:26.987 --> 00:14:30.673
in silence, we had an opening ritual where we
290
00:14:30.673 --> 00:14:33.276
welcomed in what we wanted to welcome in,
291
00:14:33.276 --> 00:14:35.793
and then banned what we wanted to ban,
292
00:14:35.793 --> 00:14:37.551
and then we worked together in silence
293
00:14:37.551 --> 00:14:39.629
for about two hours,
294
00:14:39.629 --> 00:14:40.795
everybody doing their own work.
295
00:14:40.795 --> 00:14:43.212
And then I got the idea if we
296
00:14:45.493 --> 00:14:47.906
witnessed each other,
297
00:14:47.906 --> 00:14:52.073
I think witnessing what we people do is very powerful.
298
00:14:53.514 --> 00:14:56.545
So we had five minutes where everybody could just
299
00:14:56.545 --> 00:14:58.724
but what they had done up
300
00:14:58.724 --> 00:15:00.717
and nobody could crosstalk about it,
301
00:15:00.717 --> 00:15:03.384
you couldn't say well this is what this means.
302
00:15:03.384 --> 00:15:06.667
And I tried to get rid of all the things in critique
303
00:15:06.667 --> 00:15:08.667
that I found distracted.
304
00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:12.131
And if the person wished, they could talk about it,
305
00:15:12.131 --> 00:15:15.906
or if they wanted to stand and look for five minutes,
306
00:15:15.906 --> 00:15:17.460
we would do that.
307
00:15:17.460 --> 00:15:20.043
And there were eight of us, so.
308
00:15:21.813 --> 00:15:24.253
It was very powerful and what I learned was
309
00:15:24.253 --> 00:15:26.572
that people learn by doing.
310
00:15:26.572 --> 00:15:28.989
They don't learn by teaching.
311
00:15:30.524 --> 00:15:32.976
And by the end of that semester,
312
00:15:32.976 --> 00:15:34.965
we did a little art show of our work,
313
00:15:34.965 --> 00:15:36.999
and it was breathtaking.
314
00:15:36.999 --> 00:15:38.332
I was so amazed.
315
00:15:40.618 --> 00:15:43.868
During that time I also did my own work
316
00:15:45.987 --> 00:15:47.904
with that same process.
317
00:15:48.903 --> 00:15:51.743
And worked hard at finding--
318
00:15:51.743 --> 00:15:54.160
finding the truth in my body.
319
00:15:59.024 --> 00:16:03.191
And trying to draw it or present it in some way, visually.
320
00:16:04.114 --> 00:16:06.297
Could you say a little bit about more what--
321
00:16:06.297 --> 00:16:08.931
that's so interesting, about finding the truth in your body,
322
00:16:08.931 --> 00:16:10.514
what did that mean?
323
00:16:18.004 --> 00:16:21.087
How do I put that in words?
324
00:16:22.869 --> 00:16:24.880
I still have those drawings.
325
00:16:24.880 --> 00:16:27.423
And I have one where I tried to draw
326
00:16:27.423 --> 00:16:30.923
what it feels like to be inside my throat.
327
00:16:32.778 --> 00:16:35.323
I have drawings that talked about
328
00:16:35.323 --> 00:16:38.991
some of the issues I was going on at--doing at the time
329
00:16:38.991 --> 00:16:40.887
and how I felt about it.
330
00:16:40.887 --> 00:16:43.247
So it's the feelings that you work with,
331
00:16:43.247 --> 00:16:44.997
that you comfort-ize.
332
00:16:46.538 --> 00:16:50.057
Yeah, fascinating.
333
00:16:50.057 --> 00:16:51.259
That is great.
334
00:16:51.259 --> 00:16:52.618
So when you--
335
00:16:52.618 --> 00:16:54.382
And that's what I was trying to do
336
00:16:54.382 --> 00:16:56.331
with Re-Imagine, with those type,
337
00:16:56.331 --> 00:17:00.715
with that presentation, with getting people to draw.
338
00:17:00.715 --> 00:17:03.132
And is that enough?
339
00:17:03.995 --> 00:17:05.375
That's wonderful.
340
00:17:05.375 --> 00:17:06.649
That is really helpful.
341
00:17:06.649 --> 00:17:08.647
And you had, it was so interesting,
342
00:17:08.647 --> 00:17:10.876
I believe, I'm not sure her name correctly,
343
00:17:10.876 --> 00:17:12.750
Wyn Rea? And you --
344
00:17:12.750 --> 00:17:13.766
Rea.
345
00:17:13.766 --> 00:17:14.599
Rea? Okay.
346
00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:15.432
R-E-A
347
00:17:15.432 --> 00:17:16.265
R-E-A, yes.
348
00:17:16.265 --> 00:17:19.362
Now Wyn is the young women I met somewhere,
349
00:17:19.362 --> 00:17:21.864
I don't remember where, and she was very interested
350
00:17:21.864 --> 00:17:25.111
in the work that I was doing.
351
00:17:25.111 --> 00:17:28.020
And when it got time to do this,
352
00:17:28.020 --> 00:17:29.589
I think they had asked me if I had asked me if
353
00:17:29.589 --> 00:17:32.836
I'd be comfortable painting as an example.
354
00:17:32.836 --> 00:17:35.022
I said of course, and then I thought,
355
00:17:35.022 --> 00:17:39.198
that's too simple I need to do it, something up,
356
00:17:39.198 --> 00:17:41.077
[Nancy To Someone Else] Okay.
357
00:17:41.077 --> 00:17:41.910
Wyn Rea.
358
00:17:45.928 --> 00:17:48.810
It's at this bumped up against somebody,
359
00:17:48.810 --> 00:17:51.694
'cause that's what I'm asking people at their table to do,
360
00:17:51.694 --> 00:17:55.861
not work on your own work but work as a community,
361
00:17:56.947 --> 00:17:59.778
so I had no idea what her imagery was like,
362
00:17:59.778 --> 00:18:00.998
I had no idea.
363
00:18:00.998 --> 00:18:04.444
I just knew that she had the chutzpah to do it,
364
00:18:04.444 --> 00:18:07.821
so she came and the first thing she said to me
365
00:18:07.821 --> 00:18:09.300
when we got up on the stage was
366
00:18:09.300 --> 00:18:12.513
"I've never painted with acrylic, how do you do that?"
367
00:18:12.513 --> 00:18:14.324
Wow. Really?
368
00:18:14.324 --> 00:18:16.290
(both laugh)
369
00:18:16.290 --> 00:18:18.148
Oh my goodness.
370
00:18:18.148 --> 00:18:20.969
So that was a big of a surprise.
371
00:18:20.969 --> 00:18:22.406
Yes!
372
00:18:22.406 --> 00:18:25.242
(both laugh)
373
00:18:25.242 --> 00:18:27.692
And how did it go, Nancy?
374
00:18:27.692 --> 00:18:29.249
How did it go?
375
00:18:29.249 --> 00:18:30.582
How did what go?
376
00:18:31.777 --> 00:18:33.903
Oh, sure, so she figured out
377
00:18:33.903 --> 00:18:36.141
the acrylics, you would able to figure it out?
378
00:18:36.141 --> 00:18:38.533
I just taught her as we went, ya know.
379
00:18:38.533 --> 00:18:39.754
Oh my goodness.
380
00:18:39.754 --> 00:18:42.248
But this is me, you fix it with your work.
381
00:18:42.248 --> 00:18:45.944
We didn't have a mic on it, so we could just keep going.
382
00:18:45.944 --> 00:18:50.110
And then we kept trading over each other's work.
383
00:18:50.110 --> 00:18:53.122
So she didn't paint a panel and I painted a panel,
384
00:18:53.122 --> 00:18:56.039
we'd move, we'd take turns between.
385
00:18:58.127 --> 00:19:00.294
And nobody owned anything.
386
00:19:01.760 --> 00:19:03.024
Do you remember what that felt like,
387
00:19:03.024 --> 00:19:03.941
doing that?
388
00:19:04.855 --> 00:19:05.777
Fun!
389
00:19:05.777 --> 00:19:06.706
Yeah?
390
00:19:06.706 --> 00:19:07.718
Art work is fun.
391
00:19:07.718 --> 00:19:10.486
Had you ever done exactly that before?
392
00:19:10.486 --> 00:19:12.872
Not with another person, mm mm.
393
00:19:12.872 --> 00:19:16.034
And what was it like being there
394
00:19:16.034 --> 00:19:18.622
in this gathering of you know, 2000 people
395
00:19:18.622 --> 00:19:20.455
while you're doing it?
396
00:19:22.253 --> 00:19:24.899
I was just conscious that we were all
397
00:19:24.899 --> 00:19:26.316
working together.
398
00:19:27.298 --> 00:19:31.880
And that what Wyn and I were doing was hopefully
399
00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:35.055
giving people courage to keep going.
400
00:19:35.055 --> 00:19:39.282
Could you say a little bit more
401
00:19:39.282 --> 00:19:42.837
about what you told people to do at the tables,
402
00:19:42.837 --> 00:19:43.760
if you remember?
403
00:19:43.760 --> 00:19:46.054
I've seen some of the instructions but I'd love to hear
404
00:19:46.054 --> 00:19:47.855
what you remember and what you were envisioning.
405
00:19:47.855 --> 00:19:49.739
I have to tell you, many people have commented
406
00:19:49.739 --> 00:19:51.927
on how powerful that was for them.
407
00:19:51.927 --> 00:19:54.396
Oh! That's great.
408
00:19:54.396 --> 00:19:56.479
I don't--I'm glad it was.
409
00:19:57.696 --> 00:20:01.613
My hope was that they would be a groups of 10,
410
00:20:03.091 --> 00:20:06.475
this had been started by the committee before I entered,
411
00:20:06.475 --> 00:20:08.964
that that group of 10s, that my job would be
412
00:20:08.964 --> 00:20:12.214
to help them be attentive to the topic,
413
00:20:14.595 --> 00:20:17.391
but comfort-ize it in some form.
414
00:20:17.391 --> 00:20:21.582
So it was like I was doing with my own drawing.
415
00:20:21.582 --> 00:20:24.712
Because I think that's a very useful way
416
00:20:24.712 --> 00:20:26.629
to process information.
417
00:20:27.485 --> 00:20:31.369
My hope was also that the drawing together,
418
00:20:31.369 --> 00:20:34.227
I think my intention, and I think what happened was
419
00:20:34.227 --> 00:20:37.716
they drew the first night and then I asked them
420
00:20:37.716 --> 00:20:40.071
to cut out the parts they wanted to save,
421
00:20:40.071 --> 00:20:42.835
and throw the rest away.
422
00:20:42.835 --> 00:20:45.942
And then they had a new fresh paper
423
00:20:45.942 --> 00:20:49.091
and they could place that new drawing on with glue,
424
00:20:49.091 --> 00:20:51.356
or tape, or something, I think it was glue,
425
00:20:51.356 --> 00:20:54.054
and then just keep going, keep drawing it.
426
00:20:54.054 --> 00:20:56.441
Because of the medium, which was oil pastel,
427
00:20:56.441 --> 00:20:58.635
you can go over the tops of things.
428
00:20:58.635 --> 00:21:02.635
You can layer it, it's better when you layer it.
429
00:21:05.032 --> 00:21:08.165
And my hope was by the end of the fourth day,
430
00:21:08.165 --> 00:21:11.264
there would be a rich surface that would become
431
00:21:11.264 --> 00:21:15.146
the alter cloth for the final ritual.
432
00:21:15.146 --> 00:21:17.208
The sending forth of milk and honey,
433
00:21:17.208 --> 00:21:18.856
with milk and honey.
434
00:21:18.856 --> 00:21:21.106
The meal of milk and honey.
435
00:21:23.162 --> 00:21:27.329
My desire was to interrupt the usual process of note taking
436
00:21:29.743 --> 00:21:33.851
and have people immediately begin to get out of
437
00:21:33.851 --> 00:21:37.062
that dualistic thinking of mind and body
438
00:21:37.062 --> 00:21:39.062
and put the two together
439
00:21:43.281 --> 00:21:47.448
that they would be able to just learn in a different way.
440
00:21:53.368 --> 00:21:54.307
Well talking to people,
441
00:21:54.307 --> 00:21:56.364
all of that happened, yes.
442
00:21:56.364 --> 00:21:58.667
(both laugh)
443
00:21:58.667 --> 00:21:59.591
For some.
444
00:21:59.591 --> 00:22:01.404
There were some tables that wouldn't do it.
445
00:22:01.404 --> 00:22:04.869
Oh really? Is that right? Huh.
446
00:22:04.869 --> 00:22:07.259
Interesting. What'd you feel about that?
447
00:22:07.259 --> 00:22:08.657
What'd you think about that?
448
00:22:08.657 --> 00:22:10.091
And then--it's their choice.
449
00:22:10.091 --> 00:22:11.259
Yeah, yeah.
450
00:22:11.259 --> 00:22:15.579
Sorry they wouldn't try but you know,
451
00:22:15.579 --> 00:22:17.092
the invitation was certainly there,
452
00:22:17.092 --> 00:22:19.915
the materials were there,
453
00:22:19.915 --> 00:22:21.598
it was very alluring.
454
00:22:21.598 --> 00:22:23.677
If they walked around and saw anybody else's work
455
00:22:23.677 --> 00:22:27.412
I'm sure they would have been encouraged but
456
00:22:27.412 --> 00:22:29.740
I don't know why they froze like that.
457
00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:33.846
Yeah, mhm, but other people also wrote about
458
00:22:33.846 --> 00:22:35.632
how powerful that was,
459
00:22:35.632 --> 00:22:38.614
and people who didn't feel particularly artistic,
460
00:22:38.614 --> 00:22:41.074
although you said in your presentation we're all artists,
461
00:22:41.074 --> 00:22:44.168
and then just connecting up with each other.
462
00:22:44.168 --> 00:22:45.443
I know at least one person actually
463
00:22:45.443 --> 00:22:47.145
brought it home with them.
464
00:22:47.145 --> 00:22:49.490
Yes, several people have written to me
465
00:22:49.490 --> 00:22:51.693
over the years to say they still have it,
466
00:22:51.693 --> 00:22:53.278
or they have a portion of it.
467
00:22:53.278 --> 00:22:56.185
Some groups divided theirs all up and
468
00:22:56.185 --> 00:22:58.102
everybody took a piece.
469
00:22:59.602 --> 00:23:01.422
It was important to people.
470
00:23:01.422 --> 00:23:02.797
To most people.
471
00:23:02.797 --> 00:23:05.657
Yes, absolutely.
472
00:23:05.657 --> 00:23:10.504
And then they bought the painting for United.
473
00:23:10.504 --> 00:23:14.422
People just offered us some money and I gave it all to Wyn
474
00:23:14.422 --> 00:23:17.386
because I had been paid to be there.
475
00:23:17.386 --> 00:23:20.177
I thought that was a feminist act too.
476
00:23:20.177 --> 00:23:21.788
Yes, absolutely.
477
00:23:21.788 --> 00:23:24.071
(laughs) She said "I'm just a volunteer."
478
00:23:24.071 --> 00:23:25.982
(laughs) Yes.
479
00:23:25.982 --> 00:23:29.698
Do you have any memories about your presentation
480
00:23:29.698 --> 00:23:31.031
that you gave?
481
00:23:31.031 --> 00:23:32.846
Or anything particular about that?
482
00:23:32.846 --> 00:23:36.426
You mean the large group?
483
00:23:36.426 --> 00:23:40.213
Yeah, you talked about the symbol system
484
00:23:40.213 --> 00:23:43.166
and the new way of being an artist and of art churches
485
00:23:43.166 --> 00:23:45.625
in art and new images of old religious ideas,
486
00:23:45.625 --> 00:23:48.335
those were some of the things I know you talked about.
487
00:23:48.335 --> 00:23:50.112
No, I have no memory of that.
488
00:23:50.112 --> 00:23:51.042
That's fine.
489
00:23:51.042 --> 00:23:52.554
It's all mushed together,
490
00:23:52.554 --> 00:23:54.235
it was the same old speech I always did.
491
00:23:54.235 --> 00:23:56.118
Is that right?
492
00:23:56.118 --> 00:23:57.070
(both laugh)
493
00:23:57.070 --> 00:23:59.961
Or it was a variation of.
494
00:23:59.961 --> 00:24:01.672
Well it's important what you remember,
495
00:24:01.672 --> 00:24:04.422
and it sounds like doing art was.
496
00:24:05.600 --> 00:24:08.271
The other piece that I don't know that
497
00:24:08.271 --> 00:24:11.951
you know about is that I had in the meantime done
498
00:24:11.951 --> 00:24:14.868
my MFA on 10 stories from the bible
499
00:24:21.203 --> 00:24:24.786
that were comfort-izing the abuse of women.
500
00:24:26.855 --> 00:24:29.155
I read something about that
501
00:24:29.155 --> 00:24:30.920
but could you please tell me more about this?
502
00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:33.575
I really wanna hear about this.
503
00:24:33.575 --> 00:24:36.064
Well I surrounded the alter,
504
00:24:36.064 --> 00:24:38.805
I mean the baptismal fount at Grace Cathedral
505
00:24:38.805 --> 00:24:40.604
with these pieces.
506
00:24:40.604 --> 00:24:44.687
And then a friend gave me the money to get lights
507
00:24:46.796 --> 00:24:50.233
that came down from the ceiling through gobos
508
00:24:50.233 --> 00:24:53.150
that put the words around the work,
509
00:24:54.026 --> 00:24:55.812
so that was part of it too,
510
00:24:55.812 --> 00:24:57.395
on the stone floor.
511
00:24:58.251 --> 00:25:01.565
And when the light came in through the east,
512
00:25:01.565 --> 00:25:04.903
in the morning, all you could see was the colored light
513
00:25:04.903 --> 00:25:08.431
on the floor, and then as the sun rose
514
00:25:08.431 --> 00:25:12.519
each hour it became more shadowed and the lights
515
00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:15.102
just rose up out of that light.
516
00:25:16.001 --> 00:25:18.569
And they were words like:
517
00:25:18.569 --> 00:25:20.819
murdered, framed, betrayed.
518
00:25:26.544 --> 00:25:29.794
The stories themselves had the content.
519
00:25:31.770 --> 00:25:35.161
And I chose 10 because 10 is a minyan,
520
00:25:35.161 --> 00:25:37.802
in Jewish thinking, there have to be 10
521
00:25:37.802 --> 00:25:41.469
for it to be, a community of 10 to make it--
522
00:25:43.458 --> 00:25:45.791
make it okay to be together.
523
00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:50.986
And so Phyllis Trible's book Texts of Terror
524
00:25:52.625 --> 00:25:54.579
was a part of my research
525
00:25:54.579 --> 00:25:58.356
I was good friends with a Jewish family of rabbis,
526
00:25:58.356 --> 00:26:03.189
a man and a wife, I spent a long time talking with them
527
00:26:03.189 --> 00:26:05.522
about the midrashic stories.
528
00:26:08.533 --> 00:26:11.593
I just did the research and then I made the pieces.
529
00:26:11.593 --> 00:26:15.343
Five were sculptures and five were paintings.
530
00:26:16.353 --> 00:26:20.285
Do you remember who they were?
531
00:26:20.285 --> 00:26:21.343
Or something.
532
00:26:21.343 --> 00:26:22.689
Sure.
533
00:26:22.689 --> 00:26:24.254
Yeah.
534
00:26:24.254 --> 00:26:26.352
And then they traveled with me
535
00:26:26.352 --> 00:26:28.230
to the first Re-Imagining
536
00:26:28.230 --> 00:26:30.592
and they were set up in the chapel
537
00:26:30.592 --> 00:26:33.175
a round room upstairs someplace
538
00:26:34.503 --> 00:26:38.895
where they were visited by a number of people.
539
00:26:38.895 --> 00:26:42.978
They also showed first at the Episcopal cathedral
540
00:26:44.888 --> 00:26:46.138
in Minneapolis.
541
00:26:48.461 --> 00:26:50.246
Do you remember which biblical women
542
00:26:50.246 --> 00:26:51.887
you chose for this?
543
00:26:51.887 --> 00:26:54.720
Yes, I chose Lot's wife,
544
00:26:58.735 --> 00:26:59.568
Zina,
545
00:27:01.957 --> 00:27:02.881
I missed that word, I'm sorry?
546
00:27:02.881 --> 00:27:04.714
Zina, Zina in English.
547
00:27:05.733 --> 00:27:09.027
Oh yes, of course, yes.
548
00:27:09.027 --> 00:27:11.944
The syrophoenician woman,
549
00:27:13.356 --> 00:27:15.189
the daughter of Zepta,
550
00:27:17.684 --> 00:27:19.934
the woman bent over double,
551
00:27:22.095 --> 00:27:25.178
the women Jesus heals on the sabbath,
552
00:27:27.784 --> 00:27:29.331
who am I leaving out?
553
00:27:29.331 --> 00:27:31.893
The Levites concubine, perhaps?
554
00:27:31.893 --> 00:27:33.369
No, I did not do her.
555
00:27:33.369 --> 00:27:34.586
Oh, okay.
556
00:27:34.586 --> 00:27:36.336
Oh, Rizpah.
557
00:27:37.586 --> 00:27:40.923
Rizpah was one of Saul's concubines,
558
00:27:40.923 --> 00:27:44.256
and David had all of her children killed
559
00:27:46.067 --> 00:27:48.326
when he ascended to the throne.
560
00:27:48.326 --> 00:27:50.493
So there would be no heir.
561
00:27:53.016 --> 00:27:55.766
No heir that could challenge him.
562
00:27:59.963 --> 00:28:02.732
And then I chose, I made a tryptic.
563
00:28:02.732 --> 00:28:06.640
I was very involved with goddess studies
564
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:08.640
and I wanted to find out
565
00:28:10.251 --> 00:28:12.190
what was the parallel
566
00:28:12.190 --> 00:28:16.189
in our Judea-Christian heritage of that
567
00:28:16.189 --> 00:28:18.356
trinity of feminine power.
568
00:28:20.326 --> 00:28:22.909
So I identified that I would do
569
00:28:23.777 --> 00:28:25.110
Eve as a virgin,
570
00:28:26.468 --> 00:28:27.885
Mary as a mother,
571
00:28:28.811 --> 00:28:31.447
and Lois as the crone.
572
00:28:31.447 --> 00:28:34.042
Oh, interesting.
573
00:28:34.042 --> 00:28:37.899
And so I did a tryptic of them
574
00:28:37.899 --> 00:28:39.149
but for the 10.
575
00:28:40.587 --> 00:28:42.617
I'm curious, what was this process
576
00:28:42.617 --> 00:28:43.700
like for you?
577
00:28:44.969 --> 00:28:46.095
This process?
578
00:28:46.095 --> 00:28:48.927
Of making those figures, yeah.
579
00:28:48.927 --> 00:28:52.844
Oh, well it pulled all of my passions
580
00:28:53.767 --> 00:28:55.841
and of all of my mind,
581
00:28:55.841 --> 00:28:57.591
and all of my skills,
582
00:28:58.530 --> 00:29:01.697
and all of my research and my inquiry,
583
00:29:03.071 --> 00:29:03.904
and my--
584
00:29:07.523 --> 00:29:10.310
everything I had together.
585
00:29:10.310 --> 00:29:12.643
And Grace was so kind to me,
586
00:29:15.047 --> 00:29:17.214
to let me have that space.
587
00:29:18.216 --> 00:29:19.799
I felt like I was--
588
00:29:22.636 --> 00:29:24.193
I mean I had done a lot of work for them,
589
00:29:24.193 --> 00:29:25.204
so they knew who I was,
590
00:29:25.204 --> 00:29:27.013
I wasn't a stranger.
591
00:29:27.013 --> 00:29:30.553
But I felt like I was had been not only accepted by
592
00:29:30.553 --> 00:29:33.720
my graduate school process but also by
593
00:29:36.163 --> 00:29:39.580
the religious community, to do that work.
594
00:29:41.673 --> 00:29:44.673
And that was completed in 1990 or 91
595
00:29:47.951 --> 00:29:49.868
I can't remember which.
596
00:29:51.371 --> 00:29:52.775
You just mentioned -- oh go ahead.
597
00:29:52.775 --> 00:29:55.320
I didn't expect to talk about that.
598
00:29:55.320 --> 00:29:57.368
Oh, well I'm glad you did!
599
00:29:57.368 --> 00:29:59.285
That was very powerful.
600
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:03.208
And there is a mention of that in Re-Imagining
601
00:30:03.208 --> 00:30:05.057
and it's good to hear about what that was.
602
00:30:05.057 --> 00:30:06.055
That was huge.
603
00:30:06.055 --> 00:30:08.719
And you mentioned something goddess,
604
00:30:08.719 --> 00:30:10.145
becoming interested in the goddess,
605
00:30:10.145 --> 00:30:11.486
would you mind saying a little bit
606
00:30:11.486 --> 00:30:13.385
about how that developed?
607
00:30:13.385 --> 00:30:16.043
Well I was living in Berkeley at the time.
608
00:30:16.043 --> 00:30:18.115
(both laugh)
609
00:30:18.115 --> 00:30:19.412
I guess that's the bottom line right there.
610
00:30:19.412 --> 00:30:20.682
(both laugh)
611
00:30:20.682 --> 00:30:24.298
And there were just a number of very interesting,
612
00:30:24.298 --> 00:30:28.010
mostly women, that I think in the center
613
00:30:28.010 --> 00:30:32.010
of New College, certainly some of it in the GPU,
614
00:30:34.904 --> 00:30:39.071
and then I belonged to a group of women who were just
615
00:30:42.917 --> 00:30:44.834
involved in rituals and
616
00:30:46.257 --> 00:30:49.600
trying to identify the goddess,
617
00:30:49.600 --> 00:30:53.767
trying to reinterpret the old strictly Christian festivals,
618
00:30:57.096 --> 00:31:00.667
what would that look like if they were goddess festivals?
619
00:31:00.667 --> 00:31:05.469
What would they look like if they were discussed
620
00:31:05.469 --> 00:31:07.552
through a different lens?
621
00:31:08.844 --> 00:31:10.074
So it's pretty great work.
622
00:31:10.074 --> 00:31:11.741
Yes!
623
00:31:13.096 --> 00:31:15.943
And you were doing artistic representations of these?
624
00:31:15.943 --> 00:31:18.171
No, we were ritualizing.
625
00:31:18.171 --> 00:31:20.309
Ritualizing, okay, got it, got it.
626
00:31:20.309 --> 00:31:21.770
Interesting.
627
00:31:21.770 --> 00:31:25.020
I was wondering, in reading to get back
628
00:31:26.548 --> 00:31:28.926
to Re-Imagining, and was the '93 conference
629
00:31:28.926 --> 00:31:31.105
the only one that you were involved in?
630
00:31:31.105 --> 00:31:33.414
As an official, yes.
631
00:31:33.414 --> 00:31:34.895
Okay, did you attend--
632
00:31:34.895 --> 00:31:35.933
I went to--
633
00:31:35.933 --> 00:31:36.935
Oh.
634
00:31:36.935 --> 00:31:38.939
I attended, oh, maybe five of them?
635
00:31:38.939 --> 00:31:41.488
Oh you did, okay.
636
00:31:41.488 --> 00:31:43.029
But just as a participant.
637
00:31:43.029 --> 00:31:44.206
Yeah.
638
00:31:44.206 --> 00:31:45.938
And what was it like being a participant
639
00:31:45.938 --> 00:31:48.480
at the other ones, Nancy?
640
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:51.387
I loved being there.
641
00:31:51.387 --> 00:31:54.054
It was my community at the time.
642
00:31:55.077 --> 00:31:56.660
You know, my tribe.
643
00:31:57.764 --> 00:32:01.438
My son is very connected to Burning Man.
644
00:32:01.438 --> 00:32:02.850
Oh, yes.
645
00:32:02.850 --> 00:32:05.226
And he speaks about it as his tribe.
646
00:32:05.226 --> 00:32:07.889
Yes, yeah.
647
00:32:07.889 --> 00:32:10.291
I remember you wrote about feeling like you came home.
648
00:32:10.291 --> 00:32:11.999
Like that you weren't alone.
649
00:32:11.999 --> 00:32:12.997
Yeah.
650
00:32:12.997 --> 00:32:13.997
Yeah.
651
00:32:13.997 --> 00:32:17.137
I know you experienced backlash after the conference,
652
00:32:17.137 --> 00:32:19.257
you wrote about that some in your essay,
653
00:32:19.257 --> 00:32:20.679
in Remembering and Re-Imagining,
654
00:32:20.679 --> 00:32:22.568
and I wonder if you could talk about how
655
00:32:22.568 --> 00:32:25.901
that happened and how that affected you.
656
00:32:27.337 --> 00:32:28.429
I've lost your question.
657
00:32:28.429 --> 00:32:29.428
Oh, I'm sorry.
658
00:32:29.428 --> 00:32:30.497
The backlash--
659
00:32:30.497 --> 00:32:31.618
What is the topic?
660
00:32:31.618 --> 00:32:32.615
Oh, I'm sorry, the backlash--
661
00:32:32.615 --> 00:32:33.663
Oh, the backlash.
662
00:32:33.663 --> 00:32:35.011
Yes.
663
00:32:35.011 --> 00:32:37.222
I was very saddened by it.
664
00:32:37.222 --> 00:32:38.389
It felt like--
665
00:32:43.871 --> 00:32:47.292
Mary-Ann Lundy, she lost her job.
666
00:32:47.292 --> 00:32:49.125
And I grieved for her.
667
00:32:51.416 --> 00:32:55.083
And I grieved for the narrowness of people's
668
00:32:56.648 --> 00:32:57.898
points of view.
669
00:33:01.933 --> 00:33:03.810
The Layman, you know about this?
670
00:33:03.810 --> 00:33:07.496
The Layman magazine, do you know about that?
671
00:33:07.496 --> 00:33:09.363
I do, yes.
672
00:33:09.363 --> 00:33:11.290
Well, when they asked permission
673
00:33:11.290 --> 00:33:12.873
to use the painting
674
00:33:15.034 --> 00:33:19.723
I didn't understand they were going to edit it down.
675
00:33:19.723 --> 00:33:23.473
So it became something such a different story
676
00:33:25.841 --> 00:33:28.523
than I thought I was making.
677
00:33:28.523 --> 00:33:31.004
I felt so misquoted by them.
678
00:33:31.004 --> 00:33:32.950
It was a violation.
679
00:33:32.950 --> 00:33:34.950
I felt violated by them.
680
00:33:37.754 --> 00:33:41.337
And in the end, instead of discouraging me,
681
00:33:43.641 --> 00:33:45.405
it was kind of like Trump,
682
00:33:45.405 --> 00:33:48.310
the more negative stuff that gets thrown at him,
683
00:33:48.310 --> 00:33:49.591
the stronger he gets.
684
00:33:49.591 --> 00:33:52.608
(both laugh)
685
00:33:52.608 --> 00:33:53.787
That may be the only similarity you have
686
00:33:53.787 --> 00:33:54.788
to Trump but okay!
687
00:33:54.788 --> 00:33:57.205
(both laugh)
688
00:34:01.107 --> 00:34:05.034
So you did get stronger from that?
689
00:34:05.034 --> 00:34:07.784
I did, in the end, yes.
690
00:34:08.780 --> 00:34:10.437
Because what had happened for me
691
00:34:10.437 --> 00:34:14.610
was so powerful, you can't just shame that away.
692
00:34:14.610 --> 00:34:18.777
Yeah, and how do you account for it?
693
00:34:19.695 --> 00:34:23.519
What do you think was the reason for that reaction?
694
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:26.202
The backlash?
695
00:34:26.202 --> 00:34:27.475
The backlash, yes.
696
00:34:27.475 --> 00:34:31.558
Oh, because power was being challenged.
697
00:34:36.237 --> 00:34:39.737
Because a new kind of authority had arisen
698
00:34:41.362 --> 00:34:45.529
and the powers that be were very threatened by it.
699
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:51.927
And there was so much joy.
700
00:34:54.905 --> 00:34:56.163
And so much enthusiasm.
701
00:34:56.163 --> 00:34:57.875
I've been thinking this morning
702
00:34:57.875 --> 00:34:59.780
about the early church,
703
00:34:59.780 --> 00:35:01.947
and how they met together.
704
00:35:02.812 --> 00:35:04.599
And how they didn't know where they going,
705
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:06.174
and they didn't know what they were about,
706
00:35:06.174 --> 00:35:09.007
but they couldn't not be together.
707
00:35:10.384 --> 00:35:14.147
That's a wonderful analogy.
708
00:35:14.147 --> 00:35:16.564
I didn't mean to interrupt you,
709
00:35:16.564 --> 00:35:18.859
it's so hard on the phone because I can't see the,
710
00:35:18.859 --> 00:35:20.286
you know, the nonverbal cues.
711
00:35:20.286 --> 00:35:22.080
Right, right.
712
00:35:22.080 --> 00:35:22.913
Right.
713
00:35:25.502 --> 00:35:26.580
So how would you--
714
00:35:26.580 --> 00:35:28.850
I think that's partly what was going on.
715
00:35:28.850 --> 00:35:31.484
And you know, it's, I think the paradigm is still there.
716
00:35:31.484 --> 00:35:34.984
If you look, why are people so attached to
717
00:35:37.048 --> 00:35:40.549
some of the more conservative politics of the day?
718
00:35:40.549 --> 00:35:42.561
I think it's because they're still reacting.
719
00:35:42.561 --> 00:35:46.311
We're in the middle of a cultural earthquake.
720
00:35:49.323 --> 00:35:51.898
That's the shift, the earthquake,
721
00:35:51.898 --> 00:35:54.087
things have really,
722
00:35:54.087 --> 00:35:56.670
really, really, really changed.
723
00:36:00.842 --> 00:36:05.009
How would you describe the change?
724
00:36:06.692 --> 00:36:09.192
I loved the comments
725
00:36:10.421 --> 00:36:14.411
of the tennis girl, and the person in charge
726
00:36:14.411 --> 00:36:16.033
of the tennis tournament dissented
727
00:36:16.033 --> 00:36:19.058
yesterday I think on the news.
728
00:36:19.058 --> 00:36:21.196
He talked about how women should get down on their knees
729
00:36:21.196 --> 00:36:24.029
and thank the men who make tennis so great.
730
00:36:24.029 --> 00:36:25.383
(both laugh)
731
00:36:25.383 --> 00:36:27.355
Yes, yes.
732
00:36:27.355 --> 00:36:29.613
I thought how weird that man sounds,
733
00:36:29.613 --> 00:36:31.780
but that is where we were.
734
00:36:34.394 --> 00:36:35.841
That kind of thinking,
735
00:36:35.841 --> 00:36:37.841
that men were in charge.
736
00:36:39.195 --> 00:36:42.256
And women's job was to support the men.
737
00:36:42.256 --> 00:36:44.589
That's so the way I grew up,
738
00:36:45.912 --> 00:36:50.079
and that's so the way the world was for so many centuries.
739
00:36:53.246 --> 00:36:56.239
Absolutely.
740
00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:57.072
So Nancy how--
741
00:36:57.072 --> 00:36:59.470
And it's not that way anymore,
742
00:36:59.470 --> 00:37:02.720
now it's more, what can we do together?
743
00:37:04.196 --> 00:37:06.916
And have you thought about this?
744
00:37:06.916 --> 00:37:10.149
This is how it seems from my point of view.
745
00:37:10.149 --> 00:37:13.991
And it's not the same as you're seeing it.
746
00:37:13.991 --> 00:37:17.047
Yeah, but I think that makes a lot of sense.
747
00:37:17.047 --> 00:37:18.306
Sure it does.
748
00:37:18.306 --> 00:37:20.973
Absolutely, yes.
749
00:37:21.814 --> 00:37:24.197
So I think you might be getting towards this but how
750
00:37:24.197 --> 00:37:26.697
would you define Re-Imagining?
751
00:37:28.189 --> 00:37:30.233
Do you mean how would I define that word
752
00:37:30.233 --> 00:37:31.377
or the movement?
753
00:37:31.377 --> 00:37:35.544
I guess the movement, I would say.
754
00:37:37.315 --> 00:37:41.065
I think it's a collective of people
755
00:37:43.773 --> 00:37:47.940
who want to think about matters of spiritual consequence
756
00:37:53.465 --> 00:37:56.632
through the lens of feminist critique.
757
00:38:01.891 --> 00:38:03.308
And they want to,
758
00:38:04.385 --> 00:38:06.939
and this is something we haven't talked about,
759
00:38:06.939 --> 00:38:08.755
and I really wanted to get to it.
760
00:38:08.755 --> 00:38:12.661
They want to do it in a formal academic way,
761
00:38:12.661 --> 00:38:15.161
as in a formal, spiritual way.
762
00:38:18.500 --> 00:38:20.024
So it's not just a head thing,
763
00:38:20.024 --> 00:38:21.941
it's a heart thing too.
764
00:38:23.609 --> 00:38:26.109
Can I go to a different topic?
765
00:38:27.696 --> 00:38:29.030
'Cause I don't want it to get lost.
766
00:38:29.030 --> 00:38:30.028
Absolutely, please do.
767
00:38:30.028 --> 00:38:33.611
Well, after I wrote to Sally Hill
768
00:38:36.773 --> 00:38:38.200
and got involved in it,
769
00:38:38.200 --> 00:38:40.166
they put me on the ritual committee.
770
00:38:40.166 --> 00:38:43.446
And Sue Seid-Martin, who is no longer with us,
771
00:38:43.446 --> 00:38:46.446
who taught at St. Thomas by the way,
772
00:38:49.032 --> 00:38:52.686
was such a clear thinker about ritual.
773
00:38:52.686 --> 00:38:54.831
But because I'd been doing all this work in the
774
00:38:54.831 --> 00:38:56.903
community in where I live,
775
00:38:56.903 --> 00:39:01.204
I understood something about the foundation of ritual,
776
00:39:01.204 --> 00:39:03.537
in a way that she needed me.
777
00:39:04.629 --> 00:39:08.629
Needed my voice to help her fullness come forth.
778
00:39:11.025 --> 00:39:14.811
And we had wonderful conversations about
779
00:39:14.811 --> 00:39:18.644
why we do the things we do and how we do them,
780
00:39:19.642 --> 00:39:23.809
and how do we take this concept of the first meeting,
781
00:39:24.795 --> 00:39:28.315
how do we do a gathering so we can climax it
782
00:39:28.315 --> 00:39:31.797
with a ritual that helps people embody that,
783
00:39:31.797 --> 00:39:35.315
helps people get out of their heads,
784
00:39:35.315 --> 00:39:37.500
but not leave their heads behind but
785
00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:41.167
bring it into their bodies, be more present.
786
00:39:42.791 --> 00:39:44.496
So we had this wonderful ritual
787
00:39:44.496 --> 00:39:48.061
designed to close the last night,
788
00:39:48.061 --> 00:39:51.061
and the academics took all the time.
789
00:39:52.682 --> 00:39:56.849
And Sally Hill said well, we're gonna cut this out.
790
00:40:00.198 --> 00:40:03.615
So there was great sadness on those of us
791
00:40:06.276 --> 00:40:09.109
who knew what could have happened.
792
00:40:10.235 --> 00:40:12.345
One other thing that happened that was very
793
00:40:12.345 --> 00:40:15.472
disturbing to me was, I was the first presenter,
794
00:40:15.472 --> 00:40:19.405
and we had to use those tables as a drawing surface,
795
00:40:19.405 --> 00:40:23.692
and at the very first they needed to be cleaned off
796
00:40:23.692 --> 00:40:26.359
before we'd have the conference.
797
00:40:27.901 --> 00:40:29.818
And nobody would do it.
798
00:40:31.661 --> 00:40:35.136
So that's why when I got up, I didn't know what to do.
799
00:40:35.136 --> 00:40:37.615
So I said, okay everybody, put all the dishes
800
00:40:37.615 --> 00:40:38.697
underneath the table.
801
00:40:38.697 --> 00:40:41.947
And put that white piece of paper down.
802
00:40:49.614 --> 00:40:51.324
So there were glitches along the way.
803
00:40:51.324 --> 00:40:55.407
You know, I am so glad you talked
804
00:40:56.635 --> 00:40:59.339
about Sue-Seid Martin, she was so important,
805
00:40:59.339 --> 00:41:02.099
and I would love to hear just a little bit more
806
00:41:02.099 --> 00:41:04.256
about you collaboration and what you brought
807
00:41:04.256 --> 00:41:06.006
to that conversation.
808
00:41:10.943 --> 00:41:15.588
I think she was in a very Catholic-centric
809
00:41:15.588 --> 00:41:17.088
concept of ritual.
810
00:41:19.752 --> 00:41:23.419
And what I think I brought to it was kind of
811
00:41:25.230 --> 00:41:27.476
the folks way of doing it.
812
00:41:27.476 --> 00:41:30.139
(both laugh)
813
00:41:30.139 --> 00:41:32.014
Because of this collective of women
814
00:41:32.014 --> 00:41:34.270
that I'd been practicing with,
815
00:41:34.270 --> 00:41:37.770
for about a couple years before I met Sue,
816
00:41:39.055 --> 00:41:42.056
I knew how to reinvent things.
817
00:41:42.056 --> 00:41:45.227
I knew how to reinterpret in a way
818
00:41:45.227 --> 00:41:46.727
that brought her--
819
00:41:48.729 --> 00:41:53.529
and because she got it, because we were both speaking truth,
820
00:41:53.529 --> 00:41:57.042
we got it, and we could carry each other through it,
821
00:41:57.042 --> 00:41:59.319
through the process.
822
00:41:59.319 --> 00:42:02.362
Now at the same time I was also working
823
00:42:02.362 --> 00:42:06.529
with Presbyterians for their National Women's Convention.
824
00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:12.018
And one of the things I really loved,
825
00:42:12.018 --> 00:42:16.185
and which I took notes on to be sure to get to you,
826
00:42:17.316 --> 00:42:20.679
that process of making decisions in Re-Imagining
827
00:42:20.679 --> 00:42:22.640
was so different than the Presbyterians
828
00:42:22.640 --> 00:42:25.057
that I have to comment on it.
829
00:42:26.312 --> 00:42:28.953
What Sue taught me, as the way
830
00:42:28.953 --> 00:42:30.767
that we worked in our committee,
831
00:42:30.767 --> 00:42:34.142
the way that she said it worked within the whole,
832
00:42:34.142 --> 00:42:37.114
was that image of a spiral.
833
00:42:37.114 --> 00:42:40.833
So we did a great deal of consensus work.
834
00:42:40.833 --> 00:42:42.346
And she said, and that's what we do
835
00:42:42.346 --> 00:42:46.193
in the big planning group, we do consensus work.
836
00:42:46.193 --> 00:42:49.930
That Presbyterian women did everything in committees,
837
00:42:49.930 --> 00:42:51.460
that had to be approved.
838
00:42:51.460 --> 00:42:55.007
Everything cleared by an authority.
839
00:42:55.007 --> 00:42:57.879
And it was a linear process.
840
00:42:57.879 --> 00:43:00.552
Let's call it parliamentarian.
841
00:43:00.552 --> 00:43:02.385
Parliamentary process.
842
00:43:03.893 --> 00:43:06.447
And I think that that, the image
843
00:43:06.447 --> 00:43:09.621
of the vertical Presbyterians and the
844
00:43:09.621 --> 00:43:12.863
spiral of the Re-Imagining people,
845
00:43:12.863 --> 00:43:17.030
is critical to understanding the early beginnings.
846
00:43:18.032 --> 00:43:22.847
Oh I agree, that is really important.
847
00:43:22.847 --> 00:43:26.539
The other piece is, you asked how did they begin?
848
00:43:26.539 --> 00:43:30.088
I think it began with Sally Hill going to
849
00:43:30.088 --> 00:43:33.671
The Decade For Women Conference in Beijing,
850
00:43:34.730 --> 00:43:37.293
and coming home saying, we have to do something
851
00:43:37.293 --> 00:43:39.460
with theology, in with it.
852
00:43:42.236 --> 00:43:43.295
Is that what you've been hearing?
853
00:43:43.295 --> 00:43:45.143
Yeah, it was the Ecumenical Decade
854
00:43:45.143 --> 00:43:49.310
in Solidarity with Women that started it off, exactly, yes.
855
00:43:51.173 --> 00:43:55.134
This is really helpful, Nancy, and I'm glad,
856
00:43:55.134 --> 00:43:57.622
these are all important things that you're talking about.
857
00:43:57.622 --> 00:44:00.501
When you look at it, what aspect of Re-Imagining
858
00:44:00.501 --> 00:44:02.166
were most significant to you and why,
859
00:44:02.166 --> 00:44:05.101
you talked about several things, so I don't want, you know,
860
00:44:05.101 --> 00:44:07.036
you may have already said it, but I'd still be curious
861
00:44:07.036 --> 00:44:10.098
to see what you might say to that.
862
00:44:10.098 --> 00:44:14.327
I felt valued as an artist and so,
863
00:44:14.327 --> 00:44:16.910
I felt connected to a community
864
00:44:20.726 --> 00:44:23.143
that wasn't my own community,
865
00:44:25.018 --> 00:44:26.707
I mean it was my own emotionally
866
00:44:26.707 --> 00:44:30.378
but it wasn't my own art community.
867
00:44:30.378 --> 00:44:34.995
I felt that the way of thinking, this spiral way
868
00:44:34.995 --> 00:44:38.162
of making decisions, was so important,
869
00:44:39.099 --> 00:44:43.266
that it was relational and not authority being said to me.
870
00:44:47.259 --> 00:44:49.344
And that's I think what troubles me
871
00:44:49.344 --> 00:44:53.466
about where I saw it all going, because it
872
00:44:53.466 --> 00:44:57.216
became about theology and not about practice,
873
00:44:58.700 --> 00:45:02.033
it became more sterile, as that went on.
874
00:45:05.961 --> 00:45:07.494
Really, do you saw that in the gatherings
875
00:45:07.494 --> 00:45:10.098
as you went to the later gatherings, is that what you saw?
876
00:45:10.098 --> 00:45:13.348
Yeah, that was my experience.
877
00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:17.390
Sure, yeah.
878
00:45:17.390 --> 00:45:20.117
Did your involvement in Re-Imagining change your perspective
879
00:45:20.117 --> 00:45:23.451
on feminist theology or the church at all?
880
00:45:23.451 --> 00:45:26.284
Change my perspective...
881
00:45:30.901 --> 00:45:34.560
I think I see my own perspective as something that
882
00:45:34.560 --> 00:45:35.600
is a continuum and it just keeps going
883
00:45:35.600 --> 00:45:39.767
and Re-Imagining didn't bend it, it just made it stronger.
884
00:45:43.749 --> 00:45:48.085
I just kept going where I was going anyway.
885
00:45:48.085 --> 00:45:49.646
And even the backlash sounded like
886
00:45:49.646 --> 00:45:51.037
it strengthened you.
887
00:45:51.037 --> 00:45:52.237
Yes.
888
00:45:52.237 --> 00:45:56.281
And do you think of specific contributions
889
00:45:56.281 --> 00:46:00.448
that Re-Imagining made to Christian theology or liturgy?
890
00:46:04.826 --> 00:46:07.534
It's too jumbled up with the rest of my life,
891
00:46:07.534 --> 00:46:10.950
so integrated, I can't perse it out like that.
892
00:46:10.950 --> 00:46:12.552
Yeah, sure.
893
00:46:12.552 --> 00:46:13.552
Fair enough.
894
00:46:15.166 --> 00:46:16.682
That and I'm old.
895
00:46:16.682 --> 00:46:19.251
(both laugh)
896
00:46:19.251 --> 00:46:21.931
So my memories I do, the memory process
897
00:46:21.931 --> 00:46:24.598
is different when you get older.
898
00:46:25.664 --> 00:46:28.331
It's hard to remember specifics.
899
00:46:31.242 --> 00:46:34.909
I know that it was an important time for me.
900
00:46:36.412 --> 00:46:39.212
It was important enough with my limited resources
901
00:46:39.212 --> 00:46:41.194
to get back there whenever I could.
902
00:46:41.194 --> 00:46:44.143
Yes, well the details may not be there,
903
00:46:44.143 --> 00:46:47.892
but certainly your reflections have been very powerful
904
00:46:47.892 --> 00:46:50.763
and wise, so, that's definitely there.
905
00:46:50.763 --> 00:46:53.023
Oh, thanks.
906
00:46:53.023 --> 00:46:55.698
And what do you think Re-Imagining,
907
00:46:55.698 --> 00:46:58.112
and I don't just mean the Re-Imagining community,
908
00:46:58.112 --> 00:47:00.291
but what does Re-Imagining mean today?
909
00:47:00.291 --> 00:47:03.166
I mean what do you think needs to be re-imagined? Or--
910
00:47:03.166 --> 00:47:05.530
Well first of all I think it's been co-opt
911
00:47:05.530 --> 00:47:09.113
by our culture, until we have re-imagining baking
912
00:47:09.113 --> 00:47:12.780
Re-imagining cars, where you're at something
913
00:47:13.886 --> 00:47:16.196
so I think the first thing it has to do
914
00:47:16.196 --> 00:47:20.363
is that name needs to be somehow reclaimed or renamed.
915
00:47:28.096 --> 00:47:32.263
It's been trivialized by it's cultural advertising.
916
00:47:39.031 --> 00:47:41.873
And what needs to be, even if we don't
917
00:47:41.873 --> 00:47:45.157
use that word, but what needs to be, what would you hope
918
00:47:45.157 --> 00:47:47.407
would be re-imagined today?
919
00:47:49.639 --> 00:47:50.972
In terms of spirituality or--
920
00:47:50.972 --> 00:47:55.139
I would hope that we would continue to evolve
921
00:47:57.846 --> 00:48:00.513
a cosmic sense of who Christ is.
922
00:48:03.319 --> 00:48:05.604
And that that-- I just finished a piece
923
00:48:05.604 --> 00:48:07.500
that I'm really excited about,
924
00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:09.641
it's a portrait of St. Francis,
925
00:48:09.641 --> 00:48:13.592
I'm working in clay now because I can't see very well.
926
00:48:13.592 --> 00:48:17.759
And it's a tryp--it's three parts of one monument.
927
00:48:19.872 --> 00:48:22.697
And it's tall, you know, it's probably,
928
00:48:22.697 --> 00:48:25.636
the tallest is probably 15 inches high.
929
00:48:25.636 --> 00:48:28.781
When you look down on it, it's a tau cross,
930
00:48:28.781 --> 00:48:31.628
which was his form of devotion,
931
00:48:31.628 --> 00:48:33.515
he didn't like that black cross,
932
00:48:33.515 --> 00:48:35.924
he liked the tau one.
933
00:48:35.924 --> 00:48:38.619
When you see it's face,
934
00:48:38.619 --> 00:48:40.656
why I wanted to do Francis was
935
00:48:40.656 --> 00:48:43.900
that he was one of the early theologians
936
00:48:43.900 --> 00:48:47.067
who saw God at work in all of creation
937
00:48:48.180 --> 00:48:50.898
from the beginning of time.
938
00:48:50.898 --> 00:48:54.565
So that Christ is that manifestation of God,
939
00:48:56.972 --> 00:49:00.053
visible in nature, for instance.
940
00:49:00.053 --> 00:49:03.886
But I chose the prayer of Canticle of the Sun,
941
00:49:07.044 --> 00:49:11.593
and each of the three faces on each of the three towers
942
00:49:11.593 --> 00:49:15.702
I adorned with different aspects of that prayer
943
00:49:15.702 --> 00:49:18.196
and I'm really excited about that.
944
00:49:18.196 --> 00:49:22.196
Because I think to re-imagine the Christ needing
945
00:49:25.831 --> 00:49:27.688
that salvific aspect of God,
946
00:49:27.688 --> 00:49:31.409
the mercy side of God, the side of God that calls us
947
00:49:31.409 --> 00:49:34.659
toward wholeness, toward our potential,
948
00:49:35.549 --> 00:49:38.132
toward our beauty as a species,
949
00:49:40.620 --> 00:49:42.787
and as a part of creation.
950
00:49:45.434 --> 00:49:48.714
I think the more we can bring that forth,
951
00:49:48.714 --> 00:49:52.843
the more clearly that we can shine that out,
952
00:49:52.843 --> 00:49:57.010
I think that's where we need to go into the world.
953
00:49:58.406 --> 00:49:59.650
As your talking I'm thinking
954
00:49:59.650 --> 00:50:01.970
I would love to see this sculpture, Nancy,
955
00:50:01.970 --> 00:50:04.346
it sounds powerful,
956
00:50:04.346 --> 00:50:07.992
Two parts are still in the kiln,
957
00:50:07.992 --> 00:50:10.103
so when I get it put together,
958
00:50:10.103 --> 00:50:12.738
I'll send you a little photograph of it.
959
00:50:12.738 --> 00:50:14.764
I would so appreciate that.
960
00:50:14.764 --> 00:50:15.597
Thank you.
961
00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:20.540
But that's what I would re-imagine.
962
00:50:20.540 --> 00:50:23.731
I think our world is in, I think it's a beautiful world,
963
00:50:23.731 --> 00:50:27.729
but I think that our geopolitical situation
964
00:50:27.729 --> 00:50:28.896
is terrifying.
965
00:50:30.744 --> 00:50:33.814
And I see at the basis of that
966
00:50:33.814 --> 00:50:36.358
so many things that need to be re-imagined.
967
00:50:36.358 --> 00:50:39.857
Class, economics, distribution of wealth,
968
00:50:39.857 --> 00:50:41.440
sexism, speciesism.
969
00:50:47.314 --> 00:50:48.693
(both laugh)
970
00:50:48.693 --> 00:50:50.626
I still swat mosquitoes but I stopped eating animals.
971
00:50:50.626 --> 00:50:53.043
(both laugh)
972
00:50:57.739 --> 00:51:01.059
All the -isms need to be examined so badly.
973
00:51:01.059 --> 00:51:03.309
Absolutely.
974
00:51:05.745 --> 00:51:07.378
I have one last specific question for you.
975
00:51:07.378 --> 00:51:09.706
We are developing a re-imagining website
976
00:51:09.706 --> 00:51:13.529
and a lot of it is about making the different resources
977
00:51:13.529 --> 00:51:15.741
available, digitizing things,
978
00:51:15.741 --> 00:51:17.832
and I was just wondering if you had thoughts
979
00:51:17.832 --> 00:51:21.116
about what we should include or who would benefit from it,
980
00:51:21.116 --> 00:51:23.141
or connections we should make.
981
00:51:23.141 --> 00:51:24.483
I'm glad to know it's not there,
982
00:51:24.483 --> 00:51:27.400
because I've searched since I got your letter,
983
00:51:27.400 --> 00:51:28.627
I've searched all over trying to look for it.
984
00:51:28.627 --> 00:51:29.922
Oh sorry.
985
00:51:29.922 --> 00:51:30.921
I can't find it anywhere.
986
00:51:30.921 --> 00:51:31.942
It won't be ready
987
00:51:31.942 --> 00:51:32.940
until the end of the summer it looks like,
988
00:51:32.940 --> 00:51:36.514
we're having a web designer do it.
989
00:51:36.514 --> 00:51:39.653
And by the way, I will send you, when it's ready,
990
00:51:39.653 --> 00:51:41.949
I will send you a link to it.
991
00:51:41.949 --> 00:51:42.948
Great.
992
00:51:42.948 --> 00:51:44.106
Now your question was, what should be on it?
993
00:51:44.106 --> 00:51:45.773
Yes.
994
00:51:47.010 --> 00:51:48.677
The world.
995
00:51:51.526 --> 00:51:55.026
I will love reading and seeing everything.
996
00:51:56.439 --> 00:51:59.865
But of course I would love to have a section
997
00:51:59.865 --> 00:52:02.819
on Re-Imagining through visual information.
998
00:52:02.819 --> 00:52:03.849
Yes.
999
00:52:03.849 --> 00:52:06.766
Like the St. Francis one.
1000
00:52:12.567 --> 00:52:15.199
Actually, if you would be willing,
1001
00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:16.903
you don't need to answer now,
1002
00:52:16.903 --> 00:52:19.759
but we were thinking of making all kinds of
1003
00:52:19.759 --> 00:52:21.780
links and resources and if you would be willing
1004
00:52:21.780 --> 00:52:24.108
to have us link to anything you're doing
1005
00:52:24.108 --> 00:52:25.703
I think that would add a lot.
1006
00:52:25.703 --> 00:52:27.952
But you don't have to answer that now,
1007
00:52:27.952 --> 00:52:29.480
you can think about that.
1008
00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:30.610
Yeah, it would depend on
1009
00:52:30.610 --> 00:52:32.777
what's required of me to do.
1010
00:52:32.777 --> 00:52:33.914
Sure.
1011
00:52:33.914 --> 00:52:38.332
And what kind of collection do I need
1012
00:52:38.332 --> 00:52:40.514
to pull together and how do I do that?
1013
00:52:40.514 --> 00:52:44.347
I'm not-- I live up in the middle of a forest,
1014
00:52:45.418 --> 00:52:48.501
and I don't have a lot of technology.
1015
00:52:50.384 --> 00:52:51.686
Like I couldn't open your communal open office
1016
00:52:51.686 --> 00:52:55.570
or whatever it was, Microsoft Office.
1017
00:52:55.570 --> 00:52:57.154
Well while I'm thinking of it,
1018
00:52:57.154 --> 00:52:58.805
and once again you don't have to say now,
1019
00:52:58.805 --> 00:53:01.660
but even a link, you said the website is outdated,
1020
00:53:01.660 --> 00:53:04.892
but it has a lot of beautiful images
1021
00:53:04.892 --> 00:53:06.424
and links to your books,
1022
00:53:06.424 --> 00:53:08.764
would that be-- you can think about whether that
1023
00:53:08.764 --> 00:53:10.245
would be something you would want to have linked.
1024
00:53:10.245 --> 00:53:12.172
Yeah, yeah, I'll talk it over
1025
00:53:12.172 --> 00:53:14.663
with my, like, crew.
1026
00:53:14.663 --> 00:53:17.390
That sounds good, that sounds fair enough.
1027
00:53:17.390 --> 00:53:20.749
May I look at my notes, just before we hang up?
1028
00:53:20.749 --> 00:53:22.003
Oh, please, I was gonna say
1029
00:53:22.003 --> 00:53:23.205
is there anything you'd like to add,
1030
00:53:23.205 --> 00:53:25.518
'cause I wanna hear it, you've said wonderful things.
1031
00:53:25.518 --> 00:53:26.716
I wanna know what happened
1032
00:53:26.716 --> 00:53:28.589
to Rita Nakashima Brock.
1033
00:53:28.589 --> 00:53:31.096
She is at Brite Divinity School,
1034
00:53:31.096 --> 00:53:34.016
and I will be interviewing her in May.
1035
00:53:34.016 --> 00:53:37.687
I love her presentations.
1036
00:53:37.687 --> 00:53:40.011
Yes. Say some more about that,
1037
00:53:40.011 --> 00:53:41.603
I'd love to hear--
1038
00:53:41.603 --> 00:53:43.963
Well, because she told her stories,
1039
00:53:43.963 --> 00:53:48.502
because she used her stories to talk about theology
1040
00:53:48.502 --> 00:53:51.335
instead of talking about theology,
1041
00:53:52.507 --> 00:53:56.459
you know, it was grounded in her life.
1042
00:53:56.459 --> 00:53:59.988
It's the same old same old I've been trying to talk about,
1043
00:53:59.988 --> 00:54:01.738
and I found that her,
1044
00:54:04.807 --> 00:54:08.025
I found her fresh in the middle of a more academic
1045
00:54:08.025 --> 00:54:09.775
collection of people.
1046
00:54:12.339 --> 00:54:14.006
Yes.
1047
00:54:16.652 --> 00:54:18.630
May I have your permission to tell her that?
1048
00:54:18.630 --> 00:54:20.079
Of course!
1049
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:21.443
I'd love to, I'm sure she would
1050
00:54:21.443 --> 00:54:23.275
appreciate hearing that.
1051
00:54:23.275 --> 00:54:28.171
You know, I'm sorry I haven't been reading
1052
00:54:28.171 --> 00:54:29.004
new work from her.
1053
00:54:29.004 --> 00:54:33.774
I read the book about-- it wasn't original blessing
1054
00:54:33.774 --> 00:54:37.941
but it was about, I can't see it on my bookshelf right now,
1055
00:54:38.782 --> 00:54:43.060
it was about how the cross has not been the center
1056
00:54:43.060 --> 00:54:44.477
of Christian art.
1057
00:54:46.178 --> 00:54:49.761
And I was so happy she'd written that book.
1058
00:54:54.039 --> 00:54:56.722
And she actually came after Re-Imagining
1059
00:54:56.722 --> 00:54:59.659
ended in 2003, she came, there was sort of like a reunion
1060
00:54:59.659 --> 00:55:02.479
and she came and talked about that book and showed images,
1061
00:55:02.479 --> 00:55:03.804
it was really interesting.
1062
00:55:03.804 --> 00:55:05.054
Yeah.
1063
00:55:07.028 --> 00:55:10.445
You asked at some point where did I start
1064
00:55:11.814 --> 00:55:13.168
with feminist theology.
1065
00:55:13.168 --> 00:55:14.946
Yeah!
1066
00:55:14.946 --> 00:55:17.582
And I wrote down these notes, that, you know,
1067
00:55:17.582 --> 00:55:18.415
early on.
1068
00:55:19.918 --> 00:55:22.462
I talked about the Vatican too.
1069
00:55:22.462 --> 00:55:25.685
And it was Jesuits who came out of that,
1070
00:55:25.685 --> 00:55:27.304
I think they were the beginning,
1071
00:55:27.304 --> 00:55:30.845
but then I remember Beverly Harrison,
1072
00:55:30.845 --> 00:55:35.245
and coming across her work and it having such
1073
00:55:35.245 --> 00:55:37.162
an echo in my own life.
1074
00:55:38.465 --> 00:55:42.215
And Elizabeth Johnson, especially She Who Is.
1075
00:55:43.094 --> 00:55:44.761
And Texts of Terror.
1076
00:55:48.708 --> 00:55:52.772
And I have gone through a terrible divorce,
1077
00:55:52.772 --> 00:55:56.939
and the transition in that was really were I found
1078
00:55:59.798 --> 00:56:02.952
that the power of men over women
1079
00:56:02.952 --> 00:56:07.119
was something that had to be identified and fought.
1080
00:56:08.741 --> 00:56:12.908
I found that in the end, women don't have a lot of
1081
00:56:15.944 --> 00:56:18.944
credence I guess, cultural credence.
1082
00:56:22.355 --> 00:56:26.522
And that's also when I became strongly women identified.
1083
00:56:28.325 --> 00:56:32.492
I now, my partner Harriet has been with me since 1991.
1084
00:56:33.785 --> 00:56:38.080
That's wonderful, and she's the one who
1085
00:56:38.080 --> 00:56:40.094
did the book Wisdom Searches with you?
1086
00:56:40.094 --> 00:56:41.317
Yeah.
1087
00:56:41.317 --> 00:56:44.878
Oh, how wonderful.
1088
00:56:44.878 --> 00:56:47.378
It's a lovely story.
1089
00:56:48.294 --> 00:56:51.389
We ended up in Berkeley at the same time,
1090
00:56:51.389 --> 00:56:53.722
and she came from Australia,
1091
00:56:55.103 --> 00:56:57.436
and actually was my student.
1092
00:56:58.309 --> 00:57:02.476
But we didn't do anything romantic until a year later.
1093
00:57:05.812 --> 00:57:09.062
And then we were in a good relationship
1094
00:57:12.211 --> 00:57:16.202
for 14 months, and then she went back to Australia,
1095
00:57:16.202 --> 00:57:18.148
to her life there,
1096
00:57:18.148 --> 00:57:22.046
and realized that she was being called to be my partner.
1097
00:57:22.046 --> 00:57:23.546
Which scared the shit out of me.
1098
00:57:23.546 --> 00:57:25.902
(both laugh)
1099
00:57:25.902 --> 00:57:27.485
For goodness sakes.
1100
00:57:30.236 --> 00:57:34.481
So that was going on while Re-Imagining was on also.
1101
00:57:34.481 --> 00:57:37.731
This huge shift in my life, personally.
1102
00:57:39.703 --> 00:57:43.906
I'm so happy for both of you.
1103
00:57:43.906 --> 00:57:45.773
Thank you.
1104
00:57:45.773 --> 00:57:48.260
Yeah, we are very happy.
1105
00:57:48.260 --> 00:57:52.427
We spend our days trying to bring God's love into the world.
1106
00:57:57.458 --> 00:58:00.743
Well I can feel it talking to you, Nancy.
1107
00:58:00.743 --> 00:58:01.879
Oh can you?
1108
00:58:01.879 --> 00:58:02.879
Thank you.
1109
00:58:02.879 --> 00:58:06.372
I sure can, yes.
1110
00:58:06.372 --> 00:58:07.871
Is there anything else?
1111
00:58:07.871 --> 00:58:09.585
You've said so many wonderful things.
1112
00:58:09.585 --> 00:58:11.020
Did you wanna check your notes again?
1113
00:58:11.020 --> 00:58:12.368
I just wanna make sure I give you
1114
00:58:12.368 --> 00:58:14.951
a chance to mention everything.
1115
00:58:23.579 --> 00:58:26.895
Yes, I have one last thing.
1116
00:58:26.895 --> 00:58:28.931
Good.
1117
00:58:28.931 --> 00:58:31.937
I think the challenges for Re-Imagining
1118
00:58:31.937 --> 00:58:33.389
have to be addressed.
1119
00:58:33.389 --> 00:58:37.241
And you might be in a place to carry this forth.
1120
00:58:37.241 --> 00:58:39.741
It's that ritual that we lost.
1121
00:58:41.908 --> 00:58:46.029
In that first day, and then further down the road,
1122
00:58:46.029 --> 00:58:50.196
because anything that seizes your heart and your mind
1123
00:58:53.215 --> 00:58:54.465
is unstoppable.
1124
00:58:55.780 --> 00:58:59.827
And the mind can't be seized by ideas alone.
1125
00:58:59.827 --> 00:59:03.709
We have to be comfort-ize it in some way.
1126
00:59:03.709 --> 00:59:06.126
In our body, in a sacred way.
1127
00:59:09.172 --> 00:59:13.505
I'm thinking of people who are out on the lines fighting
1128
00:59:13.505 --> 00:59:15.543
for Black Lives Matter,
1129
00:59:15.543 --> 00:59:17.717
that they get this.
1130
00:59:17.717 --> 00:59:19.236
Not the concepts,
1131
00:59:19.236 --> 00:59:22.313
it's putting your life on the line.
1132
00:59:22.313 --> 00:59:24.528
We don't need to put our lives on the line,
1133
00:59:24.528 --> 00:59:27.695
we need to put our hearts on the line.
1134
00:59:31.101 --> 00:59:34.601
And unless that happens, we're still doing
1135
00:59:38.409 --> 00:59:39.992
dualistic thinking.
1136
00:59:41.986 --> 00:59:46.153
So for unified thinking to happen, we need to ritualize
1137
00:59:48.877 --> 00:59:50.210
the work itself.
1138
00:59:53.490 --> 00:59:55.117
I taught a class on Sophia,
1139
00:59:55.117 --> 00:59:57.456
one of my last classes I taught,
1140
00:59:57.456 --> 01:00:00.835
and I actually made people spend five minutes
1141
01:00:00.835 --> 01:00:03.973
at the beginning and five minutes at the end
1142
01:00:03.973 --> 01:00:08.507
in prayer to Sophia, I used the Sophia blessing.
1143
01:00:08.507 --> 01:00:10.466
And I said you don't have to believe this,
1144
01:00:10.466 --> 01:00:12.438
you just have to do it.
1145
01:00:12.438 --> 01:00:16.657
And watch what happens, see what happens to you.
1146
01:00:16.657 --> 01:00:19.009
Maybe nothing, you may have a window,
1147
01:00:19.009 --> 01:00:23.092
you may have a point of conversion, I don't know.
1148
01:00:24.764 --> 01:00:28.931
But unless you do the work of prayer and action together,
1149
01:00:32.802 --> 01:00:36.469
along with these ideas, they remain sterile.
1150
01:00:37.540 --> 01:00:41.137
And what we were doing was making a book of ours,
1151
01:00:41.137 --> 01:00:45.094
of prayers to Holy wisdom, we were using collage
1152
01:00:45.094 --> 01:00:49.261
and writing poems with it, that was the work, of the class.
1153
01:00:50.864 --> 01:00:54.123
And they had to read a book about Sophia
1154
01:00:54.123 --> 01:00:56.373
that I wanted them to read.
1155
01:00:57.560 --> 01:00:59.580
This sounds wonderful, and I'm curious,
1156
01:00:59.580 --> 01:01:02.701
did you get any reactions from people?
1157
01:01:02.701 --> 01:01:06.178
About what that was like for them?
1158
01:01:06.178 --> 01:01:08.892
I only had it for five days.
1159
01:01:08.892 --> 01:01:10.475
Oh.
1160
01:01:10.475 --> 01:01:13.583
It was an intensive class.
1161
01:01:13.583 --> 01:01:17.166
I had it for six hours a day for five days.
1162
01:01:18.094 --> 01:01:20.801
At the end they had their books made.
1163
01:01:20.801 --> 01:01:23.884
I have no idea what happened from it.
1164
01:01:24.839 --> 01:01:27.038
It sounds like an amazing experience.
1165
01:01:27.038 --> 01:01:29.147
You just put things out there
1166
01:01:29.147 --> 01:01:31.203
and where it goes, I don't know.
1167
01:01:31.203 --> 01:01:32.332
Right?
1168
01:01:32.332 --> 01:01:34.540
Teaching's always like that isn't it.
1169
01:01:34.540 --> 01:01:35.873
It is.
1170
01:01:37.848 --> 01:01:38.867
The ideas are really cool, I'd be like,
1171
01:01:38.867 --> 01:01:40.546
what do you think of this?
1172
01:01:40.546 --> 01:01:42.085
Right.
1173
01:01:42.085 --> 01:01:43.301
Exactly.
1174
01:01:43.301 --> 01:01:44.301
What do you teach?
1175
01:01:44.301 --> 01:01:46.450
I teach theology and women's studies,
1176
01:01:46.450 --> 01:01:49.060
so mostly reformation, that's what I'm hired for,
1177
01:01:49.060 --> 01:01:50.216
but I also teach a course
1178
01:01:50.216 --> 01:01:52.795
on women in the Christian tradition.
1179
01:01:52.795 --> 01:01:55.317
Oh, that's exciting.
1180
01:01:55.317 --> 01:01:57.702
Listen, I have a wonderful paper cut out,
1181
01:01:57.702 --> 01:01:59.677
I'll send a copy to you,
1182
01:01:59.677 --> 01:02:01.444
a photograph of that if I can remember it,
1183
01:02:01.444 --> 01:02:02.706
it's Mary Magdalene.
1184
01:02:02.706 --> 01:02:04.235
Yes?
1185
01:02:04.235 --> 01:02:06.169
And she's celebrating eucharist,
1186
01:02:06.169 --> 01:02:07.836
and with her parish.
1187
01:02:09.436 --> 01:02:11.620
I would love to see this.
1188
01:02:11.620 --> 01:02:13.120
I would love that.
1189
01:02:14.463 --> 01:02:16.592
Well I think I'm gonna end the recording now,
1190
01:02:16.592 --> 01:02:18.330
if that's okay with you?
1191
01:02:18.330 --> 01:02:19.504
Sure.
1192
01:02:19.504 --> 01:02:20.396
Okay, I'm just turning it off now.