James Willard Woodson: [indistinct 00:00:03] went to University of Michigan, and in between that — Do I have all my stuff here? I did, I forgot that I didn't bring that, I don't think. I got a fellowship when I was an alumni of Tuskegee from the National Endowment of Humanities to spend twelve months of study at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. And I spent it under a professor there who was a known scholar, George Tindall, you ever heard of George Brown Tindall? He was White, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, he [indistinct 00:00:47] and he'd written another book on history. Paul Ortiz: What year was this? James Willard Woodson: He was obsessed with that. What was that year? About '75, it was, it may be be a little different in the year, but I could identify that year by checking on it. I went there one summer, I spent twelve weeks with him. Paul Ortiz: At Central North Carolina? James Willard Woodson: Not at Central. Paul Ortiz: I'm sorry. James Willard Woodson: Was it North Carolina Central? It's at Chapel Hill, that's where it's located. Paul Ortiz: Okay, so you went to the University of North Carolina? James Willard Woodson: At Chapel Hill, yeah. Paul Ortiz: At Chapel Hill. James Willard Woodson: Yeah, and I spent three months there, twelve weeks, taking courses under him. They got a grant somewhere and got some money to initiate this program to improve chances to produce creative scholars, you see, and they wanted to do that to get more money for the school program endowment and so on, it was a very smart move. They picked students from different places who had outstanding records, and I was one they picked, you see, and I took this opportunity. Paul Ortiz: What were you doing throughout the 1950s as far as work? James Willard Woodson: The 1950s? I came back here, when? I got that somewhere too, I don't know, let me see now, I can tell you that. I came back here to work in 1959, but up in that time I worked in the steel mill back in Youngstown, Ohio. Paul Ortiz: You came back here— James Willard Woodson: I was buying a home there for my mother too, you see, I went back there and worked at the Republic Steel Corporation, you know what I'm talking about? Paul Ortiz: Oh yeah, I've talked to people that worked at the Republic Steel in Birmingham. James Willard Woodson: I worked at Republic Steel Youngstown, where I was also a labor union shop steward there. Paul Ortiz: Oh, really? James Willard Woodson: Yeah, one of the first Black ones there. Paul Ortiz: What was that experience like? That must've been— James Willard Woodson: One of the best I've ever had in my life. What happened was that the fellas working the mill learned that I had been to college, and most of them didn't have it, it was always [indistinct 00:03:29]. They told him, "They got this guy who went to college, and he's a good man," so the union asked me to be the shop representative at the department where we worked, you see, Black and White. I did it and I helped them a lot, I mean workers who had problems and all, they would go to the company and get some solutions. In fact, some people were about to get fired, and I got them another chance [indistinct 00:04:06], they kept me [indistinct 00:04:08]. Paul Ortiz: That must've been challenging, you were representing both Black and White workers. James Willard Woodson: Well, to me they were workers, you see. Just like now, if I'm teaching a class here and there's some White students here and Black students, there's no way I can just show favoritism or give that to a Black student or a White student, I want to treat them as they are, they deserve to be taught, you see what I'm talking about? That's the way I've always been all my life, when I was in the steel mill, I represented both and I have had cases where sometimes a Black person had not quite done what he should do involving a White boy or something like that. I would go to that person and get offsite and go on out and tell them what to do, sit down out there and go apologize, and they would keep their job. James Willard Woodson: You're not good or bad because of your complexion of your skin or your race, you see, a person who sees like that is very blind, you see, and I would not do that now. We got some White little children right now and they seem to like me very well, you see, and we have to be deserving too. I've got to be fair to you, you've got to be fair to me, so I have never wanted to mistreat anybody, know what I mean? Regardless of color or race or whatever. Paul Ortiz: What was your occupation at Republic Steel? James Willard Woodson: I was what they called, the terminology was a steelworker, but I was working on what they call a loading situation where they had these cranes, would come over [indistinct 00:06:15] and they'd make this product back there in the hot place, they'd bring it out, bring it on down to the assembly line and so it'd go down to where you are and piece out the pieces, and you'd load it up, put it on a crane to carry it back, put it in a container, you see. I'd be one of those guys doing the loading, I was a loader helper, they called that. Paul Ortiz: Loader? James Willard Woodson: Mm-hmm. Paul Ortiz: Were there ever any strikes while you were at Republic Steel? James Willard Woodson: Yeah. I've had the company [indistinct 00:06:53] Youngstown. Paul Ortiz: [indistinct 00:07:02]— James Willard Woodson: Greenland Country Power Company, and I've had [indistinct 00:07:08] a foreman called me in to help get problems solved by telling the people what I thought was right and what was wrong, the employees and everything. This gets to be an obligation, "What is the truth here?" If someone's working for a White man and not doing their job or stealing on the job, I can't defend that person, I can get that person off to the side and try to dissuade them to stop doing this kind of thing and be worthy of what you are, know what I'm talking about? That's the way I am about that, I didn't tell this church to give me this office, you see, but I do work that's important for the church, you see. Plus, I'm never going to take anything away from here, I'm going to bring something if I can. James Willard Woodson: According to the way I feel, if I do something wrong, there's one certain umpire, it's God. I might can steal something out of your pocket somewhere, but God sees me and I can't live with it, and I shouldn't want to, you see. I don't have problems like that, I really don't, I can't hate people because of the color or nothing like that. Who is the person that decide what race you'd be? You woke up and here you are, and it's true. To me it's all been silly over the years, I have always thought that these different hate groups and animosity was just silly and needless, you see, that's what I thought. Paul Ortiz: Mr. Woodson, I have some biographical information to ask you that becomes part of the record of the interview. Woodson you spell W-O-O-D-S-O-N, right? James Willard Woodson: Right. Paul Ortiz: And your middle name? James Willard Woodson: Willard, W-I-L-L-A-R-D, and I'm a Senior, my son has the same name. Paul Ortiz: Your current address? James Willard Woodson: I live at 2803— Paul Ortiz: 2803. James Willard Woodson: — Azalea, the flower, A-Z-A-L-E-A, Street, and that's considered the postcode of Tuskegee Institute, Alabama. Paul Ortiz: Tuskegee Institute? James Willard Woodson: Yeah, not Tuskegee, Tuskegee Institute, Alabama, 36088-2807. Paul Ortiz: Your home telephone number? James Willard Woodson: See, my home phone, 727-3425. Paul Ortiz: James Willard, okay. Your date of birth? James Willard Woodson: June 24th, 1919. Paul Ortiz: 1919, and you were born in Fairmont? James Willard Woodson: Oh no, Laura Lee, that's not too far from Fairmont. Paul Ortiz: Laura Lee? James Willard Woodson: Capital L-A-U-R-A, capital L-E-E. Paul Ortiz: Okay, so I got L-A-U-R— James Willard Woodson: A, Laura, capital L-E-E, that's the name of the town, West Virginia. Paul Ortiz: You're currently married? James Willard Woodson: Yes. Paul Ortiz: Your wife's name? James Willard Woodson: Dorothy, her middle name is Altamese, capital A-L-T-A-M-E-S-E. Paul Ortiz: A-L-T-A-M-E-S-E? James Willard Woodson: Uh-huh, that's her middle, now her family name was McCurry, but [indistinct 00:11:53] McCurry, which is M-C capital C-U-R-R-Y, McCurry. Paul Ortiz: Her date of birth? James Willard Woodson: Her date of birth is June the 29th, 1921. Paul Ortiz: '21, and where was she born? James Willard Woodson: Asheville, North Carolina. Paul Ortiz: Okay, Asheville. Did she do any outside work? James Willard Woodson: Let's see, I'll check on that Asheville, but she grew up there. Outside work? Yeah, she was a schoolteacher, she's retired now. Not only that, she taught in the public school system here in Macon County for a number of years, and then after I came in, she finally became the director of residence life for women. What'd you ask me about now, my wife? Paul Ortiz: Her place of birth. James Willard Woodson: No, I think I got that right. Paul Ortiz: Asheville. James Willard Woodson: I guess it is, but I know that's where she grew up at. Paul Ortiz: Your mother's name? James Willard Woodson: Her name is Willa, capital W-I-L-L-A Brown. Paul Ortiz: Do you know her maiden name? James Willard Woodson: Her maiden name was — Who, my wife? Paul Ortiz: Yeah. James Willard Woodson: My wife? Paul Ortiz: No, I'm sorry, your mother. James Willard Woodson: My mother is Brown, my mother's name was Willa Agnes Brown, B-R-O-W-N. Paul Ortiz: Her date of birth and when she passed? James Willard Woodson: Her date of birth is November 11th, 1900. Paul Ortiz: You said she passed in 1992? James Willard Woodson: '92 or '93, let me see now. Yeah, I'm sure it was 1992. Paul Ortiz: Was she born in West Virginia? James Willard Woodson: No, Asheville, North Carolina, Asheville. Paul Ortiz: Oh, your mom was born in Asheville also? James Willard Woodson: Nashville— Paul Ortiz: Oh, I'm sorry— James Willard Woodson: I mean I'm sorry, no, I'm wrong, that's my wife, but my mother was born in Aiken, South Carolina, I apologize. Paul Ortiz: Did she do outside work? James Willard Woodson: She did, what you call it, housework. Paul Ortiz: Domestic work, okay. Your father's name? James Willard Woodson: Samuel Warmack, W-A-R-M-A-C-K Woodson. Paul Ortiz: Do you know his date of birth? James Willard Woodson: I used to, but I can't think of it now, I probably got it somewhere, 18-something, about 1892 or something like that, I'm not sure. I'd have to look that up. Paul Ortiz: Which he was a coal miner? James Willard Woodson: Yeah, he was a coal miner. Paul Ortiz: The names of your sisters and brothers? James Willard Woodson: I just had one brother, no sisters. Paul Ortiz: One brother. James Willard Woodson: Name is Edwin, E-D-W-I-N. Paul Ortiz: Edwin. James Willard Woodson: Leon, capital L-E-O-N Woodson, and he's a Senior, he got a son with the same name. Paul Ortiz: He's still alive? James Willard Woodson: Yeah. Paul Ortiz: Do you know, now you said he's younger than you, two years younger? James Willard Woodson: Huh-uh, he's two years older than I am. Paul Ortiz: Oh, so he was born in 1917. James Willard Woodson: Yeah, and difficulty turning senile. Paul Ortiz: You were the firstborn. James Willard Woodson: No, he is. Paul Ortiz: Oh, I'm sorry, he was the firstborn, you were second. Do you have children? James Willard Woodson: One son. Paul Ortiz: One son, and his name is? James Willard Woodson: Same as mine, James Woodson Junior. Paul Ortiz: He was born in— James Willard Woodson: He was born in March — What is that day now, is it 12th? March the 10th, I believe it is. Paul Ortiz: March 10th, 19— James Willard Woodson: Let me ask [indistinct 00:17:10], I guess she's home now [indistinct 00:17:14] phone, it won't get on. I've got an adopted granddaughter, I think. Let's see if he's come home. Paul Ortiz: Do you have an extra copy of this article? James Willard Woodson: Sure, I've got lots of them. Is it important to you that in your family and your race, there have been some achievers? Paul Ortiz: Yeah, it is very important. James Willard Woodson: It's important. Paul Ortiz: Yeah, it is, and I think Carter G. Woodson, part of his struggle and part of the struggle that we have now in school is to basically say that Black people and Hispanic people have made contributions and have— in many different walks of life, and [indistinct 00:18:37]. James Willard Woodson: It really speaks good for the United States to have a country where people are achieving and doing things, one of the best things that can happen. I want everybody to do well, White, Black, whatever color, and so somebody here we know has the potential to do something very worthwhile for society, and we both benefit by it if they can do it. There have been a lot of us who have gotten fellowships from White schools, you see, and from White people. Now I got something here now [indistinct 00:19:26] now, and this is after I was out there so long, [indistinct 00:19:34] man, now see these people want to tell you these things, but now I kept wondering why this man doesn't want me to go to Michigan, the president of the school at the time, Luther Foster. James Willard Woodson: I kept saying, "Why?" Find out I went to his office, he sends for me to come back [indistinct 00:19:55] talk to him about my progress and how I was doing, and one thing I had built to run that program so well that I hold the school's alumni merit award for that. You've heard of this first Black four-star general? Paul Ortiz: Benjamin Davis. James Willard Woodson: No, he was at West Point and he was one of the first generals, but the first one to get four stars was Daniel "Chappie" James, the pilot. Anyway, he was my classmate at Tuskegee, and he got expelled, you see. Paul Ortiz: For being involved in the strike? James Willard Woodson: No, after the strike. Paul Ortiz: After the strike. James Willard Woodson: Yeah, he didn't get involved in the strike, he was an athlete and [indistinct 00:20:47] he made all them stay out of it, and they obeyed him, you see, where they had scholarships and everything. Later on he got put out because he had a girlfriend here, and he saw a fella trying to talk to her and hold her hand, and he went up to him and shook him away and hit him and knocked him down. They saw his father was a Tuskegee graduate and alumni trustee [indistinct 00:21:11] in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, so they expelled Chappie at that time, and Chappie was not a top ranked student anyway, [indistinct 00:21:23] if he wanted to, he was a good athlete and he liked to have fun. James Willard Woodson: Anyway, Chappie, after I came back and got into alumni office, he became a good pilot with the 99th [indistinct 00:21:39], he met me somewhere on the road and told me he wanted to talk to me and he had to take me to his room. He told me that before the United States Congressmen, two in the House and two in the Senate, had been talking and told him they wanted to nominated him for brigadier general in the next session of Congress, but they noticed in his record that he never did graduate from Tuskegee 'cause he was in trouble, and that'd needed to be changed. He said that if he could find a way to get his degree, to go ahead and do it and 'cause they wanted to nominate him, 'cause he was quite a pilot, you see. James Willard Woodson: Chappie had met me, he came around and met me and I wasn't at his place, he came to me and told me that. I think we were at a national convention and so on and so forth, he told me he wanted to talk to me so he had me go to his room, and he told me that this Congressman told him, and he said, "You know I got put out of school by hitting Dan James [indistinct 00:22:41]," who's his wife, they had married. Well I didn't [indistinct 00:22:46], I said, "Chappie," I said to him, "I'm going to do all I can to help you," I said, "Now you give me the information," he gave me all the information. I came back to school after the convention, went and see President Foster and he got excited about it, he said, "You mean to tell me —" I worked a little psychology, I said, "Dr. Foster," I went to his office and he said, "Hey, how was the meeting out in California or something —" Not California, somewhere. James Willard Woodson: He and I had been to a lot of national conventions, "How was the meeting?" I said, "Fine," and I had brought some money back to school, and I told him I'm trying to [indistinct 00:23:30], and I said, "I came to talk about something," and he said, "What's that?" I told him what Chappie had told me about getting his degree and how he got expelled and everything, so he could become — Not the first one, he was a Black brigadier general, but there weren't many. He got excited about that, [indistinct 00:23:52] next Black brigadier general in the paper now to be an alumnus of Tuskegee, "Well yeah, [indistinct 00:24:01]," talking about Chappie. He said, "Well, how can we do that?" I said, "If you would talk with the committee, they'll approve him for it," I knew that as I already talked to the chairman, Dr. Foster, and [indistinct 00:24:18]. James Willard Woodson: [indistinct 00:24:20] and he was approved to get his degree at the next commencement, you see, and so when he came back for the next commencement to get his degree, they also put him up and me too for the alumni merit award, that's how I got it, you see. It was based on the work I'd done, I had built this alumni program up quite a bit, it was way down, you see. Based on that, you see, Chappie got his degree. That was one of the things that included also me getting the alumni merit award, you see. Paul Ortiz: What year did you win that award? James Willard Woodson: 1969, I won't forget that, we both got it in '69 together, just the two of us, you see. Here's Michigan's requirement, you see, prospectus on what my dissertation would be about, you see. [indistinct 00:25:20] could I'd get my time extended, I hadn't produced this thing now since I left there, and they made me come out because of Foster [indistinct 00:25:35] me back home, you see, and so— Paul Ortiz: You said he wouldn't hold your—? James Willard Woodson: He said he would hold my job if I didn't come back. What I did, I came back and then I had so much work to do, we had a national convention coming and everything, I couldn't find time to do any work, you see. Then they wanted me here about two years ago as somebody to help the students stay in school, and I sent them $100 'cause [indistinct 00:26:12] from Michigan, so they thanked me for it and I told them in a letter I sent, I told Dean Rosenberry I can't help but wonder how much better I might be doing with this if I had ever finished my dissertation. Where do I sign, here? Paul Ortiz: If you could just put down your educational history. James Willard Woodson: Here? Paul Ortiz: Your degrees and the year you got them. James Willard Woodson: Oh boy now, Tuskegee, [indistinct 00:26:48] university now, High Point University now, okay? Paul Ortiz: Okay. James Willard Woodson: [indistinct 00:26:55] if that's all right. The dates I've got it as, actually what they have done now, they redated it to keep that strike out of there. Paul Ortiz: Oh, really? James Willard Woodson: Yeah. Paul Ortiz: What year is your— James Willard Woodson: Well, on the records they put 1941, that's when I should've graduated, and I had finished the work too [indistinct 00:27:21], and so I actually got the degree in 1950. Paul Ortiz: 1950. James Willard Woodson: Yeah. Is that what you want? Which one you want? Paul Ortiz: Sure, 1950 would be— James Willard Woodson: They won't talk about that. Paul Ortiz: Oh, so the date on your graduation says '41? James Willard Woodson: Yeah, for that same thing. Paul Ortiz: Whichever one you'd want to put, whichever one you think is the most— James Willard Woodson: Actually, I had completed the work. Paul Ortiz: Yeah, '41. James Willard Woodson: See, but I was punished so it got delayed, 'cause that's what it says now, 1941, and that's my class, you see. Now, I didn't get anything at Auburn. Paul Ortiz: Could you put that? Let's see, you had a BS? Or no, I'm sorry, a bachelor's at Tuskegee? James Willard Woodson: Yeah, a degree, BS, that's what it was. I didn't finish at Auburn, I got the [indistinct 00:28:19]. Oh yeah, that's right, they wanted me to do it on Black experience, Auburn won't do that now, they stopped that. Now let's see, now the next thing is University of Michigan, I guess. You see, the thing with University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, there was no degrees, there was just special studies, see, so we're just going to put that down. Paul Ortiz: You got your MA though at University of Michigan? James Willard Woodson: Yeah, I got an MAE, they call it AM, yeah. Paul Ortiz: I want to hear your prospectus. James Willard Woodson: When it says place now, you want to put the place there, Ann Arbor? Paul Ortiz: Sure, that's in Ann Arbor. James Willard Woodson: That's 1975 [indistinct 00:29:26] or '74, '75. James Willard Woodson: AM. Now I had done first [indistinct 00:29:53] completed you see, now don't put it in? Paul Ortiz: You could put working on PhD through University of Michigan. James Willard Woodson: Why don't I put "further study"? Paul Ortiz: Okay. James Willard Woodson: I'll put toward PhD. Now my work history, let's see now, oh boy. Paul Ortiz: Starting with your most previous job. James Willard Woodson: My most previous job? Paul Ortiz: Yeah. James Willard Woodson: Assistant professor of history. James Willard Woodson: [indistinct 00:31:26] Tuskegee University, Tuskegee [indistinct 00:31:28], and those dates were 17, 18 years, let's see. [indistinct 00:31:56] I left in '89, 1972, that'd be '89, okay. That's not really true because I spent — Ooh, '59, oh wait, I see, that's okay, from '59, 13 years [indistinct 00:32:29] let's see now, director of alumni affairs. Let's see now, I became that in 1959, and that went on for 17 years, that was in 1976, so this would go from 1976, now I got it. I guess that's it, is that all? Paul Ortiz: Sure, then you said you had been a steelworker? James Willard Woodson: Yeah, where you want that? Paul Ortiz: Right underneath this one. James Willard Woodson: Just say steelworker? It was in Youngstown, Ohio at the — See now, I worked all over Republic Steel's operation, most of it. James Willard Woodson: [indistinct 00:34:56] about 1942 — Anything else? My name isn't on there, but you take that. Paul Ortiz: Now I have your name on this other paper. I was going to ask you, do you have— James Willard Woodson: I think I have a copy that somebody gave me. Paul Ortiz: Oh, of this? James Willard Woodson: Uh-huh, a copy. Paul Ortiz: Sure, I can make a copy for you when we get access to a photocopier. Now let's see, your residential history, you lived in Laura Lee. James Willard Woodson: I was born there, I don't know how long I was there, not very long I'm sure. That's where I was born, [indistinct 00:36:53]. Paul Ortiz: Yeah, you lived there from 1919 to the time you graduated high school? James Willard Woodson: Oh no, I went to grade school in Fairmont, and there were little town mining camps all around, and it's pretty hard to put that down and pinpoint that. My awareness period of places, things like that, it goes way back, but I think I was in a little place called — What was that place? It was a little mining camp place, but they'd do their shopping in Fairmont. Paul Ortiz: Then you were at Tuskegee from '37 to '41, and Youngstown, Ohio from '41. James Willard Woodson: Until I came back in '59. Paul Ortiz: '59, and then you've been in Tuskegee since. James Willard Woodson: Mm-hmm. Paul Ortiz: Okay, just a couple more. Do you have any grandchildren? James Willard Woodson: Not really, there's a little girl that call me granddad, but she's not kin to me. She just got married, she's pregnant now, she's not kin to me at all, and she'll start crying if you said she's not. Paul Ortiz: Organizations that you belong to? James Willard Woodson: Let's see now, I'm a member of what they call the Optimist Club, it's the Tuskegee Optimist Club, I think that's the name of them. Paul Ortiz: Right, Mr. Huth, okay. James Willard Woodson: Let me see, [indistinct 00:39:12], I'm a life member of the Phi Alpha Theta Honors Society and Alpha Kappa Mu, [indistinct 00:39:36] and the church here, Westminster Presbyterian Church, I was the [indistinct 00:39:51] for about 15 years, not now, but I was. Paul Ortiz: Please list any activities, hobbies, interests. Activities, obviously you give lectures on history. James Willard Woodson: Reading is one, I can't tell you anything else that I do. Paul Ortiz: What was your MA, you did an MA thesis? James Willard Woodson: I did, I've been trying to think of what it was now. [indistinct 00:40:53]— Paul Ortiz: What was the title of it? James Willard Woodson: I can't think of it as this minute, I'd have to go look at it. (phone rings)What was it called? Hello? It sure is, yes? [indistinct 00:41:12], hey. Unless she came downstairs, hold on, [indistinct 00:41:21].