Ann George Atwater: It may not been quite as long as yours, but it was long. My daddy went and bought a straightening comb and the curlers. He didn't think to buy grease like we buy. Along then, they was using a lot of hair grease more lean, and so he didn't get any hair grease. He told us to go in there and use the lard. He would dip us out some lard and put it out and that's what we put in our hair. I would take the straightening comb, and I could pretty much get my hair pretty straight but I couldn't make them curlers curl it. Every time I would take a piece of hair and put the curlers in it and it wouldn't curl. I'd, the scissors and cut it off. I said, "That's dead hair." Hair ain't no good until I had my hair just picked up all over. It really looked real bad. But at that time, I thought I was looking good 'cause I ain't know no difference. Sonya Ramsey: How old were you [indistinct 00:00:56]. Ann George Atwater: I imagine somewhere about eight or nine, somewhere in there, 'cause my mama died when I was six. We tried to take care of ourselves and having to do and not—'cause we learned that if you try to depend on somebody, then when my stepmom came and I thought this was going to be some help for us, 'cause even when my period started, she didn't even tell me nothing. I didn't know nothing, nothing. I stayed in the bed all day long, wouldn't go to school, wouldn't get up. Then my sister came over to the house and she wanted to know why I wouldn't get up, and then I told her. Then she told me and that's how I found out about that. So it's just learning, I guess, just still learning, taking care of yourself and knowing that you've got to be the one to take care of yourself. You can't depend on the other fella. Now you hear me talk a lot of time and I do down White folks. I down them because I learned that how they were treating us. I'm not downing you, but I'm just telling you the facts. Sonya Ramsey: I understand. Ann George Atwater: But I have had to depend on White folks for some of my livelihood. It's a White woman now in Durham, I call her my mother. She has been like a mother to me. She knows when I get up and say White folks, she knows where I'm coming from. To get bread on my table sometime, she would have to put it on there. I'd go to Black people and they would turn the backs on me. Now coming along, still working in the struggle, we had what we call the AFL-CIO gave a grant and they was trying to save the schools, with segregation, both get together. The White folks were moving their kids out. So we tried to find out what we could do to try to stop it. Everybody come together. We had what we call, they call it a charrette, but it's a 10-day meeting. Ann George Atwater: At the meetings we were having before we decided to have a charrette, there was a guy there by the name of C.P. Ellis. C.P. was a Klans. He was the head man in the Klans. Here I was just a ordinary girl from the development, they called it. I never stayed in the project, but this is what they'd always say. So C.P. and I would argue. He would call, "Them niggers this and them niggers that." I would get up and say, "Them crackers, this and them crackers that." The night that we started to have the charrette, C.P. said that it was a Black and White issue. He wanted it to be Black and White. Ann George Atwater: I said, "Well, I tell you what, if you let us work this problem out about the school system and when we finish in 10 days, if you still want it to be a Black and White issue, I will make it a Black and White issue." He sat down, and he didn't want to sit down, but he sat down and ate dinner. They'd pay for our dinner. We started off from that. Then C.P. displayed all the Klans material. The little boys about, I reckon 11, 12, 13, 'cause see, we were organizing all of the kids. Any little child could come in here and talk to you like they knew you. They was going to tear all this stuff down, and I told them, "No." I said, "Read what it says and you can peep his whole card." When he saw me save his material, he said he turned. That's when he started that Black folks were different. I worked with that real hard. But one thing about me, when I got my CAT training, this is way back, under Howard Fuller, I had a 17 weeks training. Sonya Ramsey: CAT? What is that? Ann George Atwater: Cat. Cat. C-A-T. Sonya Ramsey: What is that? Ann George Atwater: That community action technician, that's training. That's what I had. That's the one with that streaks on it up there. He taught me. See, at that time, he trained us and he said, "Whatever you know is right and you believe in it, stick to it. Don't let nobody change you," and I did in the meeting. He gave me charge as a supervisor, and charges, told me to go out and fire one of the ladies that work at the Housing Authority. Well, first thing I did was set a picket line out there, which is the wrongest thing in the world to do. But at that time, I thought because she told me to do it, I had to do what my supervisor said, so that's why I did it. Ann George Atwater: Come to find out I wasn't supposed to do what she said at all because I knew that was wrong. I was supposed to tell her that that's the wrong thing to do. "You do it 1, 2, 3, and this is the way you did it." After I got that in my head that whatever you believed in, you stick to it. It stayed in there. It ain't out yet. I don't care if I have to knock somebody down, I knock them down. If I believe it might be wrong, but if I think it's right, I'm going to hang in there until I see that it's wrong. Then if I find out that I'm wrong, I will come back and apologize, and that's where I got it from, starting way back there then. Sonya Ramsey: Could you just talk a little bit about your training? What did you do on your training? Ann George Atwater: Okay. Like I said, it's a long time ago. When we had that training, they taught us everything. They taught us how to write proposals, how to write letters, how to sit correctly, how to talk correctly; when you go out, how to sell yourself, in other words is what I'm saying. They taught us, some of them how to type, taught some of us how to sew. I never learned how to get both hands on the typewriter. I could always get one up there, but I could never get two. I learned how to sew a little bit. But everything that people do now we were taught about it, and we had it down so pat in 17 weeks that they wasn't afraid to send us anywhere. I've been somewhere everywhere. I've been in Washington organizing. I've been in Asheville organizing. I went to Asheville and the housing authority, the executive director (phone rings) cut you back. Sonya Ramsey: Did you want to go? Karen Ferguson: No, no. Sonya Ramsey: Maybe let finish up with my— Karen Ferguson: Okay. Sonya Ramsey: I wanted to ask you, were there more women during the training or more men? Ann George Atwater: Yeah. Yeah. I forget, people from all over the different counties in North Carolina came together, and we had this training. See, North Carolina Fund gave us the money to have this training bid. My baby was housing, and I learned everything there was; how many nails it take to build a house, how many bricks, all that stuff. You could ask me then and I could tell you what to do. I could crawl under the house and inspect it just like the inspector. I could do all of that. I can't get under a house now. Sonya Ramsey: You said there were more women, why do you think there were more women that participated in the project? Ann George Atwater: Because all our men see, it just hadn't started. Most our men see, in jail and they pick them up and put them in jail and they been there for a while. So that's why the women out here left to defend by themselves. That's why there's so much crime about men and women fighting women over a man. There ain't enough men right out of here to go around. I'm telling you the honest truth and that's why, both now and then. Karen Ferguson: I was just wondering, would you go back again to your childhood— Ann George Atwater: Go back anywhere? Karen Ferguson: Okay. I was wondering if you can remember Jim Crow signs, Colored only, White only signs? Ann George Atwater: Oh, that's all we knowed. When I grew up, you couldn't go out and go in the bathroom together. Some place, where you sold your foods, you couldn't even go in to get it, you had to stand outdoors to a window to get it. We've even had crosses burnt when I was a little girl. When you said, "Klans," everybody would run. They were scared to death. Karen Ferguson: Was there any other kind of violence that the Klans— Ann George Atwater: No they didn't have any violence per se, but I know a lady's house that they burnt. The mailman, a White man was driving the mail was our mailman. I don't know whether this Black man was working for these people or what was happening, but he saw him come out of that woman's house, so he had him hung. They hung him, put him in a tree and hung him. They sure did, and nothing was ever done about it. Sonya Ramsey: With growing up in that environment, how did you come to form a friendship with C.P. Ellis, if he could make the change— Ann George Atwater: Because I was determined that God was better than the devil, and God is stronger than the devil. That's the point that I was trying to prove with him, and it worked out that way. That's what we said to each other. I said, "We'll see whose God is the strongest." He had a machine gun in the trunk of his car and he showed it every day. I carried a little small white Bible and I showed that every day, and every day I had a different verse as a scripture that we could read. I told him, I said, "We'll see whose God is the strongest," and at the end my God was the strongest. Sonya Ramsey: I need you to give me a little bit more understanding, 'cause you talking about every day you showed your Bible, he had showed his gun. This is during this what you call the charrette? Ann George Atwater: Mm-hmm. Sonya Ramsey: Who called this meeting? Who organized this meeting— Ann George Atwater: Okay. Sonya Ramsey: —and who were the people that were invited to participate in that meeting? Ann George Atwater: Okay, the meeting was called, as I said, AFL-CIO. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Ann George Atwater: They had a grant and they gave it to, I can't think of the man now to call the name of it, but the man that, I call it EMC, but that ain't the word for it, that put it together, kept it together. His name was Bill Riddick. He was a Black guy. Okay. When the AFL-CIO got together and what they was calling themselves is Save Our Schools. That was the reason for it. This is even before Women-in-Action to Prevent Violence and its Causes was organized. Sonya Ramsey: EMC? Ann George Atwater: It came after the charrette. The charrette had pulled enough people together for it to get started. But what happened when they started talking about it, when they were going around through the community trying to get people to talk about it, nobody didn't want to talk. So what they decided to do, "We got to do something to save like Hillside." See, all the White kids were going to Hillside. Their parents were moving them out, not Hillside. Durham High was moving them out and we had to have our Black kids then to go to Durham High to mix in with what's left in order for it to make it to save. Then we had to go to the library, look into the Hillside Library to see and Whitted School, it used to be Whitted School then, look in that library to see what was in there was the same material at both schools. We found out that Hillside High, when they graduated out, they had 11th grade books. Durham High had 12th grade books. Ann George Atwater: So then we fought to make those books be equal. We found in the elementary library that the kids was still reading from Mac See Muff and Muff See Mac, them books from back there when I come along. In the Black schools, the material was totally different. Then we started raising saying from that, and this is how we got these meetings started. We wanted the material first to be equal so that when our kids got there, they would get the type of education because we know we had to have it right when the White kids got over here to our Black schools, and that's how we started. We met about two or three weeks talking about that, what the problem was, trying to set it all down, get everything together. Then we started with the charrette. Now the reason that I hooked up with C.P. Ellis was because my mouth was big and I couldn't stand to see the newspaper. The newspapers never wrote anything about us good since I can remember. Ann George Atwater: I didn't go the night that they chose the co-chairman, so they picked C.P. He said yes, he would be the co-chairman. Then they asked Howard Clement and he said, no he ain't messing with no Klans. He ain't going to do that. Howard was up here. so they called me and they asked me and I told them, I said, "No." I laid there in that bed, I said, "Oh, my Lord." I said, "That paper going print in the morning, Blacks is scared of Whites. That's exactly what the headline is going be." I jumped up and called and told them that, "Yes, I'd be happy to work as a co-chairman," and that's what they put in the paper. That's how I got started with C.P. Ann George Atwater: Not in love with him and still is not in love with him, even though we get along like two peas in a pod. He'll come in when he get ready, I'll go out there when I get ready. But I'm not in love with him, 'cause I know he might turn on me any time. But we haven't had no falling out. We've been sent around places just about all over the United States together. The man right now is writing a book about us and they're supposed to be doing a TV movie about us. Warner Brothers has interviewed us for a movie. That hasn't moved too fast, so I don't know what would come out of it. Ann George Atwater: But I just believe in—see, when I'm working, my difference about you changes. I don't take my difference. I may hate your guts, but if it's a problem, if it's a job we got to do and it takes both of us to do it, why not get on in there and do the job? Then if after we finish the job, then if I want to slap somebody, then slap them. That's just the way I am and I've been that way and I can't help it. Sonya Ramsey: How did your children react to you participating in the community? Ann George Atwater: Now, I had them out there at first, but the night that they started shooting tear gas at us, marching on the street and that was real tear gas. Sonya Ramsey: This was the early '60s? Ann George Atwater: Mm-hmm. I grabbed a cab, stuck my kids in and sent them home and I didn't put them back out there no more. But I talked to them and let them know that I would be all right, and this is something I had to do so that the kind of life I had, they would have a better life, and this is what I did. I was the first Black vice chairman of the Democratic Party here in Durham and one of our outstanding ladies had a spell of sickness. One of my outstanding ladies put a bunch of money in and paid for her slot to be able to get that spot. I said, "That's fine, but it don't stop me." Ann George Atwater: I have been paid less on my job that God gave me the vision of going back, working with the tenants to help them to understand the policies, 'cause every time you read the paper, they were arguing with the authority about one thing and another. There was four or five set out over here and four or five set out over there, and I wanted to know why people couldn't be heard. So when I went to the job, they paid me $8,000 a year. I thought there was some good money 'cause I hadn't made none in a long time. I stayed in that. They paid me that right on. That was part-time. But I went into full-time, they continued to pay me that. Ann George Atwater: It wasn't a long time after that that they decided to move my salary up a little bit, but it wasn't for the money, it was for the help of my people. I felt that my people needed me. I missed an opportunity to go to college. George Esser of The North Carolina Fund was going to pay for my house, pay for my schooling, pay for everything, and I turned it down. They gave me a job at New York University in New York. I turned it down 'cause I couldn't live in New York 'cause I went up there to look at the place I was going to stay, and I saw a man beat a dog down and would go in and rob lady's apartment and my apartment was right beside that. I said, "Never would I come on find my two children laying out here in the street." I give it up. I couldn't take that kind of thing. Sonya Ramsey: What time period was this? Ann George Atwater: Now, this was in the '60s. All this was happening to me in the '60s. In the '70s is when, well I started working for Durham Housing Authority in '71 and then I got a batch of sickness. Then I didn't go back out to work until '81. I got on disability after that, but I never stopped working. Even though I couldn't get out. The folks would call me and they still do it now and for different things to do. Every dime I get, I should hold it for myself. But when the children come to me needing certain things and the parents I feel that's not able to give them, I give them some work to do here to give them my money. They ain't going to stay two hours, but they'll come in and I give them the money to try to keep them off the street. Ann George Atwater: Now my house is used for, I call it the clearing house. When people have problems, everybody in this neighborhood, across town, anywhere, call out here or come out here. The police has my number. I have the police number. If something goes on wrong, I can call in, and everybody knows that I will put them in jail if I catch them doing something, and that's just the life I live. I try to live what I talk about and I'm just a broke person. But that don't bother me being broke, 'cause like I told them when they gave me all of the awards I got about, I reckon over 200 and some. But there wasn't any money that come along with them, and I was glad to be recognized. Like I said, I wasn't in it for the money, but I was in it because I felt like this was something that somebody needed to be in. I talked to the students last night from Chapel Hill. They were talking about the cultural center. Sonya Ramsey: Oh, okay. Ann George Atwater: Now, I think it's great. I truly think it's great. But now, if they got the money, I asked them, I think they should build the culture center wherever they can build it, but design it like they want it. They don't want to build it, they got a certain place they want to put it and they got to have it at that place. But by the time they get them to vote, yes you can have it there, all the people that donate money is going to be pulled out and gone. So I'm saying use this bird while in hand and go on and do it. They got it saying that they can have it. They want to give it to them on one. I don't say nothing wrong to getting an architect taking them folks money and doing it, let them pay it. Ann George Atwater: But they can't see that, and that's what I was trying to tell them last night. I also told them that they can't do it by themselves. See, they got to hook up with all of the universities and pull them all together and they're outnumbered by White that's supporting that effort now that Black folks still haven't come alive. But when it's built, every Black person, "Look what we done," and ain't done nothing. Then I'd have to go back and apologize to the White folk for saying that they weren't in there for nothing. See, 'cause that's what I'm saying, they just did to see what's going on, probably carry news back, but I'm going to have to apologize for that. I know I will if I'm still alive. Karen Ferguson: I just had one last question now about the age of segregation when you were growing up. Were you taught about White people when you were growing up? Did you have any White playmates— Ann George Atwater: No, I didn't have— Karen Ferguson: —or did you have any association with White people? Ann George Atwater: Like I said, on the farm, the only way we played with White children was we went to their farm to work, and those little kids was out there with us come in the field with us. But you couldn't touch them and the men in there couldn't hardly look at them as far as that go. We believed that White folk were better than we were, and this is what we really believed. Sonya Ramsey: What were the things that made you believe that, though? Ann George Atwater: Okay, because sometimes, well say for instance, fruit. I'm going to use that. We could get fruit only at Christmas. They got fruit through the week. The only thing we had that they had at the same time was watermelons. They would tell us we were good enough to spitting watermelon seeds, and this is the thing that they labeled on us back there then. They would always give you whatever they didn't want. They never would say, "Let me buy you something, give you something new," and these are the kinds of things. Karen Ferguson: What made that attitude change? Ann George Atwater: Because like I said, when I got in my CAT training and found out that everybody is somebody who has a right, the person has a right. Also, about the taxes that our tax monies, that's our family's tax money that is what making this system roll, and we need a part of it, and that's what make us. I went in there and stole the manual out the Department of Social Service building to find out all the facts, 'cause see at one time, Black folks didn't have a little booth to go in. They stood out in the hall, like we in here, and they would holler from over there, ask you all about your business. You had to tell it in front of everybody. Ann George Atwater: So we had to get out there and march to make them give them a little booth to put the people could go in. Nobody had the nerve to steal that manual but me, and I went in there and stole it, 'cause I was the supervisor of eight neighborhood workers. I had to find out the answers to what the people wanted to hear on the street. So I stole it and xeroxed it and carried it back. I carried it back under my coat just like I brought it out. I had a group of people to go in and raise some saying about some problem they were having, they were just cussing and a carrying on while I was placing it back. While I was taking it, they did the same thing. Sonya Ramsey: So how did you get selected for the CAT training? Ann George Atwater: Okay. As I told you, when Howard would come by and asked to help me with my house, then I didn't stop. I didn't let up, and he found out we got a good worker. You had to be a good worker, dedicated, want to go, and some days going without eating and stuff like that, 'cause you didn't have it, you couldn't eat, and just giving up and taking whatever people gave you to make it. Just like I'd buy flour, I know that we not getting any more flour, so I'd buy a 25-pound bag and I could take flour and a fatback meat and put the flour in the grease and make a little gravy and cook up some biscuits, and man, had one of the best suppers you ever had, sopping gravy eating fatback. I either cook in rice and taking the gravy, putting over rice and then take a cabbage and the fatback and leave the rice off and then put it together for the next day to make the thing stretch. This is the way we made it. Karen Ferguson: I don't have anything. Sonya Ramsey: Do you have anything else? Okay, Karen Ferguson: We have to go through a little form, some forms here. We just have to get some biographical information so that when people are using this tape, they can keep all the names straight and everything else. So could I get your full name? Ann George Atwater: Okay. My full name is Ann Atwater. Let me tell you about the Atwater part and then, my name is really Ann George. I was born a George. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: Okay. Then I married a Wilson. When me and him separated and got divorced, I couldn't get any credit. So I was dating a guy and his last name was Atwater, so I used his last name, even though I had left—you know, we had broken up. So that's how I got Atwater. So my name is Ann George Wilson Atwater Pettiford. I'm a Pettiford now. Sonya Ramsey: Oh, okay. Karen Ferguson: So what would you like to be known as on— Ann George Atwater: Ann Atwater. Karen Ferguson: Ann Atwater. Okay. Okay. Could you give me your date of birth again? Ann George Atwater: Okay, July 1, 1935. Karen Ferguson: Place of birth? Ann George Atwater: Okay. Columbus County, Hallsboro, North Carolina. Karen Ferguson: You're married right now? Ann George Atwater: Yes. Karen Ferguson: Who was your first husband's name? Ann George Atwater: French Elbert Wilson. Karen Ferguson: French? Ann George Atwater: Mm-hmm. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: E-L-B-E-R-T. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Your husband now, his name? Ann George Atwater: Willie Pettiford. Karen Ferguson: Willie, how do you spell his last name? Ann George Atwater: P-E-T-T-I-F-O-R-D. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Do you remember your first husband's date of birth? Ann George Atwater: He was five years older than I am, but he was born June the 23rd. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Sonya Ramsey: [indistinct 00:27:20] details of like [indistinct 00:27:22]. Karen Ferguson: Yeah, it's okay. Is he alive still? Ann George Atwater: I don't know where he is. Karen Ferguson: You don't know— Ann George Atwater: I think he's dead. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: I hope so. No, I don't really hope that. Karen Ferguson: Mr. Pettiford, do you know his birthdate? Ann George Atwater: Yeah, he was born September 11th in '27. Karen Ferguson: Ms. Atwater, do you mind if I take a snapshot of you while we— Ann George Atwater: No, take all you want. You want me to comb my hair and put on makeup or something? Sonya Ramsey: Oh, no. This is a candid shot. [indistinct 00:27:54] Karen Ferguson: Just pretend— Ann George Atwater: I'll be happy to make up for you. Sonya Ramsey: Oh no, that's fine [crosstalk 00:27:58]. Ann George Atwater: One guy came by and he wanted to take a picture of me. When he came, I knew he was coming, but he come early. He come right in and I had my house coat on, my robe on. He said, "You're fine," then he wanted my picture. "Not in my robe you won't carry it away from here," so he didn't take my picture. I don't take good pictures you looking straight at me. No, I don't. Karen Ferguson: I'll just keep asking you the questions. Ann George Atwater: Yeah, go ahead. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Your first husband, was he born in Columbus County too? Ann George Atwater: No, he was born in South Carolina. Karen Ferguson: South Carolina. Okay. Ann George Atwater: Nichols, South Carolina, I think. Karen Ferguson: What is that again? Ann George Atwater: Nichols. Karen Ferguson: Okay, and Mr. Pettiford? Ann George Atwater: He was born in Franklin County. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: I'm supposed to say "pig feet" when you take pictures. (all laughing) Karen Ferguson: What was your mother's name. Ann George Atwater: Emma Jane. She was a Shaw before she married. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: But then she's Emma Jane George now, Shaw George. Karen Ferguson: What was her maiden name again? Ann George Atwater: Shaw. Karen Ferguson: Shaw. Ann George Atwater: Mm-hmm. Karen Ferguson: Her date of birth, do you know that? Ann George Atwater: No, I don't. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: Oh Lord. If you want to cut, let me call my sister. Karen Ferguson: No, that's fine. If I can't get these dates, that's all right. Do you remember when she passed on? Ann George Atwater: Now, I was six-year-old, so I don't know what year that was. Then my daddy, I was 19 when he died. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Where was your mother born? Ann George Atwater: She was born in Clarkton, North Carolina. Sonya Ramsey: What part of North Carolina is that in— Ann George Atwater: Huh? Sonya Ramsey: Is that the eastern or the western part? Ann George Atwater: That's southeast. Sonya Ramsey: Southeast? Ann George Atwater: Mm-hmm. Karen Ferguson: What was her job? Did she have a job or did she— Ann George Atwater: Working in the field, plowing the horses and mules and stuff— Karen Ferguson: Farming? Ann George Atwater: Farming— Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: —and having babies. (laughs) Karen Ferguson: Your father's name? Ann George Atwater: It was William Randolph George. His nickname is Will George. Everybody called him Will George. Karen Ferguson: Where was he born? Ann George Atwater: He was born in Hallsboro, Columbus County. Karen Ferguson: How do you spell Hallsboro? Is that— Ann George Atwater: H-A-L-L-S-B-O-R-O. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Okay. How many sisters and brothers did you have? You told me there were eight— Ann George Atwater: Five girls and four boys. Karen Ferguson: Five girls and four boys? Ann George Atwater: I'm the baby of all of them. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Sonya Ramsey: We're like this form is long. Karen Ferguson: Yeah, it's a bit long. Could you give me their names? Sonya Ramsey: Yes, Ann George Atwater: My oldest one is Alfred George. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Alfred George? Ann George Atwater: Uh-huh. The next one was Randolph George. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: My sister's name is Climmie Dix. Karen Ferguson: Okay. C-L-E-M-M-I-E? Clemmie? Ann George Atwater: C-L-I-M-M-I-E. Yes, Climmie. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: The next one is Andrew George. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: The next one is Ida Thurmond, Ida Francis Thurmond. Karen Ferguson: Okay. All right. Ann George Atwater: The next one is Virginia Pierce. Karen Ferguson: Mm-hmm. Ann George Atwater: The next one is Robert Ted George, not Robert Fido, now Robert Ted. Karen Ferguson: Okay. All right. Ann George Atwater: The next one is Hester Alene Williams. Karen Ferguson: How do you spell the second name? Ann George Atwater: A-L-E-N-E. Sonya Ramsey: Is that Hester? Ann George Atwater: Mm-hmm. Karen Ferguson: Is that wrong? Oh, Hester. Okay. Sorry. Okay. Ann George Atwater: And I, and me. And me. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Karen Ferguson: What was Hester's last name? Ann George Atwater: Williams. Okay. Her name is Alene. Nobody never used the Hester part. Karen Ferguson: Okay. And how much older was your oldest brother than you? Do you know? Ann George Atwater: He was born in 1916. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: I was born in 35. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Do you remember when Randolph was born? How much older is he? Ann George Atwater: See, Alfred is two years older than Randolph. Karen Ferguson: Okay. All right. Ann George Atwater: And then. Karen Ferguson: Climmie? Ann George Atwater: Randolph is two years older than Climmie. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: All of them is two years apart, except that when you get down to me and Alene. Alene was three years older than I am. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. [indistinct 00:32:56] Ann George Atwater: But we both were born in the same month. I got all that down in my Bible back here. Karen Ferguson: That's all right. [indistinct 00:33:11] Could you give me your name for your children? Ann George Atwater: Okay. The child that's dead, his name was Jimmy Wilson. Karen Ferguson: Right. When was he born? Ann George Atwater: He was born— Karen Ferguson: When you were 13? Ann George Atwater: About 15. Karen Ferguson: 15? Okay. Ann George Atwater: But he was born September the 26th. I can really go back and look that up. Karen Ferguson: All right. Ann George Atwater: Okay. My next one is Lydia, L-Y-D-I-A Marie. Well she's a Green now. And she was born May 12th in '52. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: My baby is Marilynn Denise Wilson. Marilynn has two Ns on it. Karen Ferguson: Okay. She was born? Ann George Atwater: January the 26th in '56. Karen Ferguson: You have grandchildren, right? Ann George Atwater: Yeah, I have— Karen Ferguson: How many? Ann George Atwater: Now, my grandchildren, I have three. Karen Ferguson: Okay. But you— Ann George Atwater: Now my husband has some children, so I claim them too. Karen Ferguson: Right. Okay. Ann George Atwater: But we didn't get into them, so I'll just leave those off. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Could you give me the places that you lived in your life. You were born in Columbus County and then— Ann George Atwater: Then I moved here. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: Durham County. Karen Ferguson: When you remember approximately when you moved to Durham? Ann George Atwater: I moved here, it was in '53. Karen Ferguson: 1953. Okay. The schools that you've gone to? Ann George Atwater: Okay. I went to Hallsboro Elementary School and Farmer's Union High School. Farmer's Union High School. Willie, watch the mailman. Oh, excuse me. I [indistinct 00:35:15] Karen Ferguson: That's okay. Ann George Atwater: 'Cause he won't stop with the car there. Karen Ferguson: Okay. And you went to— Sonya Ramsey: Did you ask her about the dates? Karen Ferguson: What ages were you in Hallsboro Elementary? Ann George Atwater: I think the school went to, okay, I think to the eighth grade at Hallsboro. Then we went to the ninth, 10th, 11th at the high school, but I was promoted to the 10th. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: See, I didn't finish. I would've come out in 11th grade had I continued. Karen Ferguson: Okay. All right. Did you get your high school diploma? Ann George Atwater: Yeah, I went back and studied it and got it and I got mine in Chapel Hill. I went back over there. But then I had two semesters of college. I challenged that and I didn't say that in my interview, but I did challenge that, 'cause it says you must pass the test to get into college, so I took the test and passed it so they couldn't turn me down. So then we had some other community people gave me the money to go pay for going for over there. I'm the one that really started on the campus about community-oriented social work. Karen Ferguson: This is at UNC? Ann George Atwater: No, this is at North Carolina Central. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Okay. So when were you there at— Ann George Atwater: Oh, it must have been in the '70s. Karen Ferguson: 1970s? Ann George Atwater: Mm-hmm. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Then the high school diploma at Chapel Hill, where did you go there— Ann George Atwater: Whatever you go— Karen Ferguson: GED? Ann George Atwater: Yeah, I got my GED. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Okay. All right. Sorry, I have just want to get this straight. At Farmer's Union High School, you went to 10th grade? Ann George Atwater: I was promoted to the 10th. I never started the 10th. Karen Ferguson: Okay. All right. Ann George Atwater: But I'll say 10th grade if you want to. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Sorry. I guess I could. Could you tell me the jobs that you had? Ann George Atwater: Okay. I worked domestic work. Now, I've raised quite a few children. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: I always tell people I raised 200 children, but it wasn't quite that many. Karen Ferguson: Do you remember approximately when you were doing domestic work? What years? Ann George Atwater: Okay. All of that came around '56, '57 and on up until I got sick, I did it. Karen Ferguson: Okay, so that would be until about 19, what? Until the— Ann George Atwater: Oh, till I'll say around '63. Karen Ferguson: Okay. All right. Okay. Now I see all your awards on your— Sonya Ramsey: We have a question about what awards have you won. Karen Ferguson: We have a question about what awards you've won. Since you've got so many, maybe you want to tell me the ones that are most important to you that you could— Sonya Ramsey: [indistinct 00:38:39] Ann George Atwater: My Rosa Parks. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Rosa— Ann George Atwater: That's Rosa. One of the children banged on it and broke her foot and I'm still mad about it, and that's Rosa. Karen Ferguson: Yeah. Ann George Atwater: I got that in '82. The Women in Community Services give me that. I went to Dallas, Texas to bring her back on the plane, and that's the award. Oh, Lord. It ain't up there. Oh, God. It ain't up there. Them children walk by and they rub it, so they knocked the award down 'cause it was right there in the middle. It's shaped like a egg, and with her picture on the award. But I don't have it. I don't know where to tell them to look back there. I'll have it up there next time you come back, 'cause I'm going to put the rest of them back on the wall that fell off. But the others, the girl said, "Ann, you got too many. That's enough. Don't try to spread everything on the wall." Sonya Ramsey: Over 200. Karen Ferguson: Over 200 awards. Ann George Atwater: Yeah. Part of them stayed in at the Y. During the Black History Month. They used to come get them and put them on display up there, but then we brought them back home and I ain't let them out of sight since. Karen Ferguson: What your church do you go to currently? Ann George Atwater: Mount Calvary United Church of Christ. It's located 1715 Athens Avenue. The pastor there is Reverend J.C. Cheek. Do you need the pastor's name? Karen Ferguson: Okay. No, that's fine. Ann George Atwater: Fine. Okay. I'm First Lady Deacon at that church. We have two women deacon. Oh, Lordy. Sonya Ramsey: What was the name of the church you went to before Mount Calvary? Ann George Atwater: Okay. In Durham, I went to White Rock— Sonya Ramsey: Right. Okay. Ann George Atwater: Baptist Church, I think White Rock is Missionary Baptist, or White Rock Baptist. But the church at my home was New Light Baptist Church, Missionary Baptist. I'm now turned to be another young mom. I have two grandchildren I'm raising. Karen Ferguson: Okay. What organizations do you belong to right now? Ann George Atwater: I don't know why I didn't get that resume of mine out. Okay. I belong to National Council of Negro Women, The Durham Committee on the Affairs of Black People, The NAACP. I just got off the Women Commission. I was one of those, but I'm not right now in the present. I may go back and I believe that's all other than in the church. I'm the choir singer on the choir, and I'm in charge of all of the women of the church. I'm chairman of the Missionary Department. I'm chairman of the Pastor's Aid and First Aid, was a First aid. I don't do much First Aid now, I can't walk. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Are there other organizations that you belong to in the past that you want me to record here? Ann George Atwater: Yeah, I used belong to UOCI. It's a batch of them, but what I'm going to have to do is get them up and can I get them to— Karen Ferguson: That would be good. If you— Ann George Atwater: —Chris— Karen Ferguson: If you could write us and send us a copy of your resume if you've got one [indistinct 00:42:19] Ann George Atwater: All right. Okay. All right. Karen Ferguson: That would be perfect. That would be great. Ann George Atwater: Okay. All right. Karen Ferguson: Okay. I think that's about all that we need. Oh, and also the release form. I'm sorry. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. You can go. I was just going to ask, how did you spell charrette? We just wanted ask how to spell it— Ann George Atwater: I don't know. I just always say 10-day program meetings for 10 days is what I always said. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: How you spell it, I don't know. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: I'm not one of them spellers. I'm one of them talkers. Sonya Ramsey: Me too. Karen Ferguson: The interview that we've done now is going to be deposited at Duke University in the archives there. Then the other— Ann George Atwater: And I feel bad about that 'cause somebody called me back when C.P. and I first got through with this when everything was good and fresh. Well, what I'll do, I got some other stuff. I got part of the first book that they started writing, Warner Brothers? And some of the write-ups. So some of that might have some more stuff that I left out in it. So what I'll do, I'll put it together and try to get it so you can have it. Sonya Ramsey: Okay. Karen Ferguson: Okay. So anyway, the interview will go to Duke and it's going to be placed somewhere else in the Black community in Durham, probably either at NCCU or even more likely at the Hayti Center. Ann George Atwater: Okay. Karen Ferguson: What we need you to do is to sign a release form so that we can use the interviews, and you've got two choices. Either you can sign this one, which is, anybody can look at it at any time. This other one is an agreement with restrictions so that if you want to restrict it to be not available until after your death or something like that, you can— Ann George Atwater: You don't want to wait till I die. Sonya Ramsey: Good. (laughs) Karen Ferguson: Okay. So you're saying— Ann George Atwater: Somebody might read that and see how pitiful I am and might say, "Here, here's $5." (clapping) Sonya Ramsey: Oh no. Karen Ferguson: Oh, no. (all laughing) Sonya Ramsey: Or give you another award. Karen Ferguson: That's right. Sonya Ramsey: We'll give you another award. Karen Ferguson: So I'll give this to you to read. I'll just fill it out here first and then— Sonya Ramsey: [indistinct 00:44:36] take this off now. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Ann George Atwater: Oh, yeah. Y'all about to keep my stuff. Karen Ferguson: Okay. Thank you. Ann George Atwater: This is really good. Sonya Ramsey: We try to get the best shot—