- At the time, and as I look back, there was a certain point where I said, "Boy, we're really being marginalized here." In terms of the... 

Interviewer: Who's we? 

- The Navy JAG, the Army JAG, the Air Force JAG, I mean, we usually met with the General Counsel on a fairly frequent basis, I want to say monthly. We had a particular meeting with him where we were still all gathered. We'd meet over lunch. The JAGs, the Army, Navy, Air Force JAG, Commandants lawyer, we all met outside the room. And at that point, I don't want to jump so far ahead, but discussions had started about commissions, you know, and what we would do. And I remember the Army JAG, Tom Romig, saying, "We need more information. I mean, we're kind of operating in a vacuum here." And I said, "Yeah, my guys are saying the same thing. I mean, they're saying, 'What am I supposed to be working on?' And I'm saying I'm not sure. Keep doing research, you know, research commissions, you know, write down some opinions." He said, "Well, we need more information." And I said, "I'll give it a shot." So we went into this lunch, and this is another, it's a vignette, but I remember it. Jim went around the room, and we all, you know, gave him reports. 

- Jim Haynes. 

- Jim Haynes, and we went around the room, and we just gave him, you know, our little reports of what was going on in our world, nothing really significant. And so we had a little talk about the commissions, and we sat wherever we wanted at these things, but this meeting, I just happened to be sitting right across the table from him. I said, "Jim, are we on the team or not? I mean, we need more information." And this collegial meeting turned at that point. He just looked at me and he said, "No you don't." I said, "Okay, we don't." So we walked out afterwards, and as guys'll do, you know, and they kind of slapped me on the back, and I said, "I gave it a shot. I mean, we're only gonna get the information they want to give us."