Kate Ellis: One second. Okay, would you state your name and when you were born? John Harold Boucree: My name is John Harold Boucree. I was born June 30th, 1923. I just had a birthday. Kate Ellis: [indistinct 00:00:20] very soon. John Harold Boucree: Yeah. Kate Ellis: 1923? John Harold Boucree: Yeah. Kate Ellis: Okay. John Harold Boucree: And I get in trouble with everybody because I use the full name rather than J. H. Boucree. If you say, "Hello, John", I won't answer you, because all my life I've been called by my middle name. But now everything you do has to be first name, middle initial, last name. Kate Ellis: Oh. John Harold Boucree: So— Kate Ellis: But you're one of those folks who would be J. Harold Boucree? John Harold Boucree: Yeah. I put it that way. I sign it all kinds of—Officially, when anything comes, I put the whole thing because sometimes I'll put J. Harold, sometimes it's J. H., but most people who known me all my life, it's just Harold Boucree. Kate Ellis: Just Harold. John Harold Boucree: Because I had somebody recently who just says, "Where does the John comes?" "It's been there all along." Kate Ellis: "It's on my birth certificate." All right. For the record, Mr. Boucree spells his last name, B-O-U-C-R-E-E. This is Kate Ellis with Mr. Boucree on July 5th, 1994. Okay. So were you born in New Orleans? John Harold Boucree: I was born in New Orleans, raised, but mind you, most of my education was in New Orleans. Graduate school was away from here, but I've lived all my life in New Orleans. Yeah. Kate Ellis: Where did you grow up? John Harold Boucree: In the uptown section, as a matter of fact, I was born within about 15 blocks. 15, 20 blocks from here, in the uptown section of the audience. Kate Ellis: Where? On what street? John Harold Boucree: On Galvez Street, South Galvez. Kate Ellis: Oh. John Harold Boucree: 3700 block on South Galvez. Kate Ellis: Okay. John Harold Boucree: And that's where the family home is. And I was born and raised there, and lived there, with some moves during The Depression and things like that, really, until I was married and moved here. But all my life in that area, in the uptown area. Kate Ellis: You mean moved here to this house? John Harold Boucree: Yes, to this house. Kate Ellis: Okay, okay. So you've stayed very rooted? John Harold Boucree: Right. Yes. Kate Ellis: Yeah. John Harold Boucree: Yes, yes. Kate Ellis: Can you start by telling me about your community around South Galvez, what your neighborhood was like, what you considered your neighborhood? John Harold Boucree: We grew up in an area, when you talk about race, it was a little small pocket of Blacks that was completely surrounded by Whites in that area, there was a portion. My father and his father bought property in that area, oh, before I was born. One that was swamped and wilderness and whatnot, and they built in that particular area. So it was a little pocket of about five or six blocks. And around that pocket, Whites built and grew up in that area. People were very friendly in the area. Kate Ellis: People meaning Whites? John Harold Boucree: Whites, and Blacks, right. Kate Ellis: Oh. John Harold Boucree: Yes. We did not know that many because as a child, you were not supposed to, you know, you stayed along the straight path. You did not deviate, were not supposed to deviate, into the predominantly White areas unless you were working or something like that. But you knew some of the people in the area that would've been there. And the persons of Blacks who live in the area got to know each other very well as a small little community in there. And we were not too far from church in school, about 10 blocks from St. Monica School, which was our parish church. Kate Ellis: St. Monica's? John Harold Boucree: St. Monica, M-O-N-I-C-A. Kate Ellis: School? And that's where you went? John Harold Boucree: That's where I went to elementary school, at St. Monica. And— Kate Ellis: That was also the church? John Harold Boucree: Yes, it was also the church. We were only about six blocks from St. Mathias, but that was a White church. But we went about 12 blocks to what was a Black church, Catholic, of course, in that area. And that was the area that we grew up in. All of us, my brothers and sisters, and sister also, went to St. Monica School. And really, I still have strong affection for the church and the parish. And my parents were instrumental and worked very hard for the actual building of the church. Had a lot to do with setting the pattern of which directions were going to go and things like that. And both were there and members of the parish until they died in there. I don't know what else. Kate Ellis: I'm just thinking a couple different things. Oh, I know. This is a basic thing. Who was in your household when you were growing up? John Harold Boucree: My mother and father, I had one older sister and there were three boys. I have an older brother and a younger brother. My grandmother, my mother's mother, would live with us periodically. She would move from there after her husband died, and years, she would live sometime with one of her daughters and other times with others. But she lived with us for a while. But basically, that was what our family constituted. We had relatives who lived out in the country someplace who would come in some time and spend time with us, but they did not live with us as such. So basically, it was my mother and father and the four children with us. And I said, my grandmother with us periodically, she lived with us for, let's say, maybe two or three years at a time. And then she would live someplace else and something like that with family. But it was a stable family. John Harold Boucree: Mother and Father both worked very hard. They had ideas and ambitions for us, and they were concerned with doing whatever they could that would enable us to take care of ourselves and have a profitable future life. They were caring parents. They were with us and concerned about us with everything and anything that we did with it. And I think back now on my childhood, and comparing that to some of some others, so my mother worked, domestic work, every day. And I say, I can never remember my mother having my sister stay at home from school because one of us was ill, or having one of us stay home to go pay a bill, even though it would cost her money, because she was paid that little small sum to work. She took time off herself to take care of what we had to do. John Harold Boucree: And I remember her going to the hospital with us and sitting in a chair at the hospital all day for service and things like that. And she went her own self to take care of all these things. And she felt that getting to school and getting an education was most important. They themselves had them. My father went as far as fourth grade, and my mother went as far as fifth grade in school. But they realized that would be the path to success in getting ahead in life, and that they were very strong. They were very close-knit family. John Harold Boucree: One of the things that we learned also was that dinner was a time for family to eat, well, everybody had to be there in time for dinner. And then Sunday morning breakfast was a big affair at our house. We had breakfast together on Sunday morning. We had dinner together at night. Every night, and along we've been that way. We went to church together. The children went together as a family. My mother and father went together because they would go to a mass, an early mass and we would all go together to another mass. Kate Ellis: So you greet them later on? John Harold Boucree: Well, yeah. Well, we'd come back home by the time we got back home after mass. So, because they would go to six o'clock mass and we'd go to eight o'clock mass, so by the time we got back home in the morning and after mass, then we would have breakfast together, and then Sunday dinner. And then, because they worked every day just about, we would have dinner together in the evening after mother and father got home. Kate Ellis: Who did the cooking? John Harold Boucree: My mother did when she got home, or when my sister was old enough. And then we learned also to cook with it. And my sister would sometimes when she'd get home in the evening after school, she would get started with dinner. But my mother would get home from work about four o'clock in the evening, and she would start cooking dinner. So we had dinner about 6, 6:30, something like that in the evening. Kate Ellis: She was hardworking. John Harold Boucree: Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. And the kind of work she did was domestic service, she did and such. She washed and ironed, and she did housecleaning. I guess you'd call her a maid today, but it wasn't at the same place. I think there were about three families that I know of that she worked. She was at one place for one or two days and another one down there, but they were in the neighborhood. Kate Ellis: In your neighborhood? John Harold Boucree: Yes, yes, yes. Kate Ellis: Oh, okay. John Harold Boucree: Yes. So she didn't— Kate Ellis: She was in that sort of surrounding—? John Harold Boucree: Right, yes. She did not have to go out of the neighborhood for it. Yeah. Kate Ellis: She didn't have to ride the street cars, or ride the—? John Harold Boucree: No, no, no, no. And because my father was a carpenter, and at that time, carpenters, then you have a lot of building going with individual houses. So we had problems. Carpenters then were not paid the kind of salaries, their money, that they're paid now. Plus with New Orleans, when it rained, and you're being paid by the hour, you don't work, you don't get paid. So now, need I say more? Kate Ellis: No. Yeah. John Harold Boucree: The kind of things that we did with them, but we managed, we survived. Kate Ellis: And you had your own house? John Harold Boucree: Yes. Yes. Kate Ellis: That he built? John Harold Boucree: Yes. Kate Ellis: So he was able to buy the property really cheap, when it was spawned, basically? John Harold Boucree: Yeah. I remember as a little boy on the house, that was a little small two room house that was there. I assume that it was on the property when they bought it. Go back, that's a long time ago for me to remember it, there was a little small tool house on there. Kate Ellis: Oh, on the property of that? John Harold Boucree: On the property, yes. And then I know that later on that they started building to replace it. And this was kind of in the front of the lot, and it started building from the back to this. And then when they got enough in the back just to move into the back, then they tore down the front and built it here. Kate Ellis: I see. John Harold Boucree: And of course, that house is the typical New Orleans single shotgun kind of house. So you used to those, you know what it is there, yeah. Kate Ellis: I mean, that's what he built, to move into that. John Harold Boucree: Yes. Yeah. Yes, yes. So that's what it is. And his father lived about three or four doors further down the street right here. Kate Ellis: Oh, I thought he had bought and then he had built here. John Harold Boucree: Yes, he built out. But his house was built a little different from that because his father was a contractor in the contractor business. So he was able to do a much larger house with it and his two-story house, and was built a little different than what ours was. Kate Ellis: So the contractors made—I mean, are you saying he was able to do more because he had the cash? John Harold Boucree: Right, he had more money coming, the funds coming in for it, see, in there. And that's the way I'd say they had it at that time, was it. Kate Ellis: Yeah. John Harold Boucree: My father is, was it dated? No, as a matter of fact, he was born in New Orleans. My mother was born in St. Mary Parish. Kate Ellis: Where is that? John Harold Boucree: That's Convent Union, Louisiana. Up on the way, let's see. It's on the river road. How shall I—? It's about 70 miles from New Orleans going towards which direction? Toward Baton Rouge. Kate Ellis: Oh, okay. John Harold Boucree: Yeah, in that area. If you go up Highway 90 toward Baton Rouge, you'll see something going off to the river road and you'll pass the place of Gramercy and Lusher, those kinds. She was born in that area. And they moved to New Orleans. As a matter of fact, I think my mother said to me one day when she first got married, she lived in one of the houses somewhere else. It's a nice area, because she was living with some cousins who were in this area. And then my father was born up in the uptown area. So I guess that's why we've always lived in the uptown area with them. Kate Ellis: That's really home then. John Harold Boucree: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kate Ellis: How did your mother decide to come to New Orleans? John Harold Boucree: Well, I really don't know. Kate Ellis: Really? John Harold Boucree: I never thought about it. Kate Ellis: Oh. John Harold Boucree: But I could assume that probably to get work or something like that within there. And she moved because her sisters, she had one sister who moved to New Orleans, who lived way downtown. And the other two sisters stayed in the country area. Her brothers moved to New Orleans also with her. And eventually her mother and father moved to New Orleans when I was smaller. I remember my grandfather, he died when I was very young, so I don't remember him too well. But I assume that, being from the country after a while, there was just nothing to do, and she had to work or something like that. So the opportunity just to work were better with coming to New Orleans. So I assumed that why they would, but I never thought about it. Kate Ellis: Yeah. John Harold Boucree: So I really don't know. Kate Ellis: Do you know your grandparents, what their life was like? John Harold Boucree: Not too much. So I don't remember too much of what my grandfather did. I know that he did some farming work before he came to New Orleans. Now what he did after he was here, I really don't remember, my grandmother did domestic work. Kate Ellis: Once she got here? John Harold Boucree: Once she got here, from what I remember, she did domestic work, and she worked for two families. And they lived in what is now the West End area, somewhere that's out there, because she had to get the—she carried a bus now to get to work at that time. And she worked, oh, quite a while. I really think that's when she stopped working. Yeah. Kate Ellis: What about on your Father's side? John Harold Boucree: On my father's side. Kate Ellis: Your father's father was a contractor. John Harold Boucree: My father's father was a contractor. He left New Orleans. Let's see, my grandmother did not work. He left New Orleans and moved to Chicago. Oh, when was that now? The 30s, something like that, 40s. And my father's brother had three brothers who lived in the Chicago area who were in the Chicago area. I don't think it was there, it may have been in Chicago itself, but I think as you probably know from hearing the history of that, there was a migration from Blacks, right? Straight up to Chicago, for job opportunities and things like that. So they would— Kate Ellis: Jump on the train. John Harold Boucree: Right, yeah. So there were three brothers who moved to Chicago. And my father had two sisters who still lived here, and my grandfather decided that they were going to go to Chicago, because all of his sisters—Yeah, his sisters lived in the Chicago area also. Now, how they got there, why they left New Orleans? Well, I really don't know. But then he moved and my daddy's two sisters moved to Chicago also with them. And by that time, I think my grandfather had kind of retired from working, was at the end there. And I have one of my father's sisters, is still living, she's what? 92 years old. She lives in Chicago, and we talk with her often. And that's the oldest relatives to living. No, my father's cousin is still living, who's 96 years old. My father's first cousin, and he's 96. Kate Ellis: Where is he? John Harold Boucree: He's here in New Orleans. Kate Ellis: Oh. John Harold Boucree: He's in the Lafon nursing home, in there. You'll probably hear the name of Father Boucree. It's his father who's living, Father Boucree is a priest in this area. Kate Ellis: Oh, okay. John Harold Boucree: But it's his father who is a first cousin with my father. And he's in the Lafon nursing home. Has been there now for about a year, two years, or something like that. But we saw him not too long ago, and he still old, kind of remembers things like that, but it's rapidly fading. Kate Ellis: Yeah. John Harold Boucree: But my aunt's memory is—She knows us. We talk with her all the time and visit with her. And it's only within the last two years that she's kind of stopped traveling. But she came down to a carnival. She came down for her weddings and things like that. Kate Ellis: Wow. Yeah. John Harold Boucree: Funeral and everything within that. Kate Ellis: So as far as your grandfather, now, this was the grandfather who lived on the same street? Yes. John Harold Boucree: Yeah, my father's father. Kate Ellis: So what did he do once he left? I mean, he left a house and—? John Harold Boucree: Well, they sold the property here and moved up to Chicago. And as a contract in the business, I assume that he probably did some of the same kind of thing. Kate Ellis: Okay. John Harold Boucree: Work up there in terms of contracting businesses. Kate Ellis: And you said that your grandmother didn't John Harold Boucree: She did not work, no. And she died, oh, before he left. She died sometime in the 30s. My grandfather taught—Let see, how shall I phrase this now? Have you come across the name of the Sisters Of The Blessed Sacrament? An order of nuns. Katharine Drexel, founder of the Order of Nuns. That's the order of nuns that found Xavier University and Xavier Prep School. Kate Ellis: Okay. John Harold Boucree: Xavier Prep School, it still stands on Magazine and Soniat Street. My grandfather taught industrial arts at that school for a while. And he was also one of the smaller contractors, some of the smaller building, for the building of Xavier University as it stands now in its present. Occasionally there within that. And I don't know how long he taught at the prep, for a short period of time he taught industrial arts there, I know that was going on. And that was with the Sisters Of The Blessed Sacrament. Sisters Of The Blessed Sacrament, whose mission was to provide for, and things that constitute Colored people and Indians. John Harold Boucree: And they established missions and schools all over the south, and for the Indian population west out in Arizona and things like that, was in there. And a lot of us, without the Sisters Of The Blessed Sacrament, would not have been able to get where we are now, because of the kind of things that they did in terms of schools and financing schools and enabling us to go to school in very cheap rates and things like that with it. But that order founded the school. And then they had supplied teachers for a lot of the Catholic schools in this area with it also. John Harold Boucree: So he taught at the prep for while and then was in the contracting business. I have a standing joke to say that I am the Black sheep in the family. They say, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, my daddy's daddy was a contractor. My daddy was a carpenter. He has one brother who's a bricklayer, another who was a mason, a brick mason, and another who was a carpenter. My mother's brother, one was a carpenter and the other was a painter. I have an older brother who's a carpenter. I have a younger brother who's a carpenter. What am I? I wanted an education. So no, I— Kate Ellis: What went wrong? John Harold Boucree: No, no. When I finished elementary school and wanted to go to the high school, I wanted to go to Xavier Prep, of course, the family says, "We can't afford it." So I said, "Okay, if I can find some way to get there, can I go?" "Yes." So I tell kids all the time, I said, "I used the only thing I had, my brains, and got a scholarship. So I went to Xavier Prep." And when I came out of high school, my father, as fathers do, and as I quote in the White establishment, the father brings the sons into their business, this million dollar—My father's a carpenter, so he brought his sons in the carpentry business. But when I got in, I said, "I don't want that. I can't do it." I mean, I know things. I said, "Daddy, I just don't want it." "Oh my God, I can't afford it." "But if I can find a way, can I go?" "Yes, you can go." Kate Ellis: To college? John Harold Boucree: Yeah. So I said, "Okay." I had only one thing to do, was brains. So I found out that they were doing the examination for scholarships. So I took examination, I got scholarships. And I worked in the office and whatnot and— Kate Ellis: At the—? John Harold Boucree: Xavier University. Yeah. Kate Ellis: Oh. John Harold Boucree: And I worked during the summer with things, and I worked with academic scholarships and well, they had government jobs, funded stipends and things like that, and I was able to get through college. They were able to help a little here and there, but I knew I could not depend upon it. And I can always remember when I came out of college, got ready to graduate, my daddy says, "Well, I guess I'll have to give up on you. I won't make a carpenter out of you." I said, "Daddy, I gave up on you a long time ago." So I went into the education. It just wasn't for me. And they agreed to let me go the direction that I wanted to go with it, and that's how I broke the mold. Kate Ellis: And then you became a teacher when you got out of Xavier? What did you do? John Harold Boucree: When I finished college, I went into service immediately. Kate Ellis: Oh, okay. John Harold Boucree: World War II. Yeah, I finished college in 1944. Kate Ellis: Oh. John Harold Boucree: And that was in the midst of World War II. As a matter of fact, I had been called before that, but the dean was able to get a stay of induction because I was in my senior year doing student teaching and whatnot, and I had one semester to finish. So they were not giving deferments, but they were giving a stay of induction. So she was able to get a stay of induction. Convention was on May the eighth, and on May the ninth, I had a letter in mail says, reading this, "Uncle Sam, wants you." See? John Harold Boucree: So I spent two years in the service here in the States in Europe and Okinawa, and came back and I started teaching then. And I taught at Xavier Prep for about eight years, and then went into the public school system. And I taught at junior high school for five years, four years. Senior high school for two years, became principal of an elementary school for one year. Went back to principal junior high school for five years, principal of senior high school for 10 years. And I says, "You can have it." John Harold Boucree: And then I went to central office and worked for the next eight or nine years as supervisor of programs dealing with behaviors and problems and staff developments, and you having all kinds of things where I had some knowledge of organization and administration until I retired in 1986, I retired. And I retired then because of illness, I became critically ill and was out for a whole year, and after that I retired. I had enough timing to retire. So then I've been retired now. I do one class now, I teach a class at Southern University New Orleans on Saturday mornings. Kate Ellis: What do you teach? John Harold Boucree: It's a class. It's a psychology course called Test Wiseness and— Kate Ellis: Test Wising? John Harold Boucree: Test Wiseness. It's designed to help repair students for taking the NTE exam and some of the other national exams. And fundamentally, you give test taking skills, teach them those, and then do a final review of basic mathematics and vocabulary building, reading process, and sentence building. Concentrating primarily on analogies, which helps you to build your vocabulary and things like that, yeah. And I do that just during the year on Saturday mornings. And I tell the dean, I say, "Anytime you want somebody to have this class, I say, "You can take it." Kate Ellis: Really? John Harold Boucree: I don't know how much longer I can do, but I do it now in there, but that's the only thing I do in terms of teaching, education wise. Kate Ellis: Well, going back, a few years— John Harold Boucree: Okay. Kate Ellis: There's a series of—This always happens to me, I have all these different questions and it's like, "What makes sense to ask next?" John Harold Boucree: Okay, great. Kate Ellis: Since we're on the topic of school, can you tell me what you remember about your schools? I mean, in your teachers? John Harold Boucree: Okay. Kate Ellis: Particularly elementary and [indistinct 00:28:00]? John Harold Boucree: Elementary school was St. Monica, it was a Catholic school. It was operated by the Sisters Of The Blessed Sacrament, and the sisters were all White. We saw them as being colorless. We saw them as teachers and did not think of them as White and Black or nothing else. We saw them as teachers. There were lay teachers who were Black in that area. Kate Ellis: They were, I'm sorry? John Harold Boucree: Black teachers, lay teachers. Kate Ellis: Oh. John Harold Boucree: In terms of religious and lay. Kate Ellis: Oh. John Harold Boucree: Meaning they were not a part of the order, but they were regular teachers who taught in the school. And I felt that they provided a very good education for us who were there. John Harold Boucree: I can't remember any overt kinds of segregation thing other than that. You grew up in a segregated area, in a segregated society, so you kind of knew where, and you kind of stayed away in those days, from things that would be controversial. You knew where you were going to go and things like that. John Harold Boucree: For example, the movie theater was on Washington near Broad, there's a funeral home now in that building, the Rhodes Funeral Home, and that was a Tivoli Theater, T-I-V-O-L-I. And that was a neighborhood movie theater, and admission was 5 cents. But you would go to the theater and the main entrance was all White, and as a Black, you went around the side, to the back and upstairs into the upper balcony within there. And we would go to the movies on Sunday evenings, primarily. Most of the time we would go. Kate Ellis: Your whole family or your brother and sisters? John Harold Boucree: Well, not necessarily together, no. When I say we, children generally in the area. We would not all necessarily go together to the movies, we would go with friends or sometimes we would go—Not the whole family together, not for it. When you went to stores, and of course as children growing up, we did not have the freedom to run around the city as you do now. Number one, transportation was not as forth—We did not have a car. And finding money for a street car, for something that was not necessary, where you needed that money for something else, so you did not go to those areas unless you just had to. So going to Canal Street, to me, is very vague. I don't remember going to Canal Street as such. John Harold Boucree: There were shopping areas in the Broadmoor shopping area, which was close to home where you walked and frequented. The Dryades Street area was a shopping area, and a lot of the Blacks in the uptown area shopped on Dryades Street. And that's the area now from, let's see, I would say from Jackson Avenue on down to—I would guess, Erato, Thalia, something like that. John Harold Boucree: And if you pass that area, you see all, it looks like a ghost town now. But that was thriving areas in that. So those were two areas that really provided a lot of what you needed in this. As a child, I really don't remember going to Canal Street for the big stores. I know my mother would go to the Canal Street area, but I may have gone with her as such in it, but I don't remember going there. Kate Ellis: Could she try on the clothes in the stores on Canal Street? John Harold Boucree: No, no, no, no. In those days, they made their clothes pop dresses, primarily. I know that my mother sewed, she has always had a sewing machine. And I know that she sewed. We had an aunt who sewed. There was somebody else who used to make clothing, for my father, yeah, but they were not able to try on the store, the clothing, as such. And as I said, I'm unfamiliar with what happened at that part of my— Kate Ellis: Well, let me ask you about that. Did she, or your parents, talk about that very much? Was it a subject of discussion in the family? John Harold Boucree: It was just a way of life. Kate Ellis: Yeah. John Harold Boucree: So there was not that much said about it as such. And I don't remember. To me, there were other more important things that they talked about other than something you could not change, you could not do something about with it in there. And I don't remember any incidents coming up with it. I know that she would go to the downtown area, I know that, in paying some of the bills. And of course in my early childhood, we did not have electricity. We used a lamp light. John Harold Boucree: And I teased my grandsons over during one of the hurricanes, so when the lights were out, we had the lamp, I said, "Matthew, this is what we studied by." He said, "Grandpa, uh-huh, uh-huh." I said, "Yes, yes, yes, this lamp." And of course we had indoor toilet and bathroom, just pictures and whatnot. But electricity was something that, you just couldn't afford within there. And as I said, a car was out of the question within there. Most of the shopping was local. Groceries were in the area, there were a number of groceries within the area. Kate Ellis: Were they White owned shops? John Harold Boucree: Yes. Kate Ellis: The grocery shops, or—? John Harold Boucree: Yes, some of them. There were one or two Black owned. Very few there. Most of them were, but White owned. I know of one where we shopped frequently was owned by Italians who were in the area, it was in there. And it served both White and Black in the area for years. And no problems at all when you went into the store. Now peculiar, as you said, now going into the store, whereas in some of the larger stores, if a Black and a White went up at the same time, then they would always serve the White first. John Harold Boucree: But I know, and I think about it now, at this little store, when you went in, you were served as you came in, regardless of who or what it was. They did not distinguish one from the other in there. And I can't recall anything in that store that was prejudicial as a child growing up. DiBartolo's was the name of the store. Kate Ellis: DiBattos? John Harold Boucree: DiBartolo's. Kate Ellis: Oh, DiBartolo's. John Harold Boucree: D-I-B-A-R-T-O-L-O. Kate Ellis: Okay. John Harold Boucree: And it was a little small family owned store, and husband and wife owned the store, and that's where she did most of the shopping. And there was another store where most of the time she would go to get meats and things like that with it. And also in the Broad Street area, I think, I went to a wake service. I think it was a wake service. John Harold Boucree: No, no. The church had a bicentennial endowment program here, The Archdiocese Of New Orleans, and the Archbishop had a mass on Thanksgiving, in which people from the various parishes who had worked were invited to this mass. John Harold Boucree: And at the mass I sat behind—There was some Whites who were sitting in the pew in front of me. And during and after mass, as people are greeting, and I happened to hear the lady's name being called, and I turned around and looked at her and I recognized her. Her name was Mrs. Stassi, S-T-A-S-S-I, and they owned a meat market on Broad Street, and I turned around and she smiled and said, "Hello." And I said, "Oh, I'm sorry, but I just have to stop and say hello to you." I said, "You were Mrs. Stassi, who owned the Stassi Meat Market on Broad Street." John Harold Boucree: And she looked at me and she says, "Yes, vaguely, I remember you." I said, "Yes. I was a little boy in that area at that time." I says, "My mother used to come all the time to the meat market." I got the warmest greeting from her. And then people stepped back and looked. But we started reminiscing about the things that went on in that store at that time. Very friendly with it again there. And they had excellent meat with it. And it is just one of those things that comes up with it. And then she says, "Thanks for saying hello to me", and went on after that with—So yeah, while there are a whole lot of negatives, there were positives that occurred within there, within it. John Harold Boucree: As I said, some of the things in during early childhood are rather vague because we were kept close as a family. I guess my parents knew the problems with Jim Crowism and all that kind of stuff. So they kind of shielded us from some of the kind of things. John Harold Boucree: Now, if they were involved in it, they did not let us know about it as such. And I would assume that they did. I assume my father did meet a lot of it with them. But his major concern was working to find money to take care of his family. And my mother's concern was, as a mother, a homemaker, to see that the kids were well taken care of and things like that. And we were not rich, far from it, but we were healthy. We had love, they worked with us and things like that, to give us a kind of foundation that we needed within there. Kate Ellis: So when you said a minute ago, "We didn't talk a whole lot about segregation or race," and that in a sense there were more important things to discuss than something that was felt, at sort of at that point, not to be changeable. John Harold Boucree: Right, right. Yeah. Kate Ellis: Those sorts of things might have more to do with putting food on the table and making sure you were going to school? John Harold Boucree: Right, right. Yeah. And whom you were playing with. What happened in school? What's coming up next week? When are you going to go here? Well, the other things that were happening in the family and things like that, within there. As I said, they took care of the things that a lot of parents, some sometimes not, and I guess I'm conscious of keeping kids home to babysit them because being in education, that just bugged me to no end. That you keep somebody out of school because somebody else has to do something. That's a parent's responsibility, that's not a child's responsibility. And I guess because I grew up that way, that I'm so aware of that. But to keep a child home, to go and pay a light bill or to go and pay, that's— Kate Ellis: So you saw that happening when you were teaching? John Harold Boucree: As a teacher, yes. Yeah, in the public school. And I could never understand that. Why do you have to keep a child home through that? And to me, there are things that are more important than that with it. As I said, I can't recall either parent relating any instances of Jim Crowism to it. They probably did have some experiences with it, but I really don't remember them as such with that. Kate Ellis: And when you—? Oh, sorry. John Harold Boucree: Yeah, go ahead. Kate Ellis: And as far as your own experience with it, again, it sounds like to some extent you were shielded. I mean, you were certainly aware of it. I mean, there was certainly an understanding of, "This is where you go and this is where you don't go." John Harold Boucree: Right, yeah. Kate Ellis: When you did go into the public areas where Whites and Blacks would share space in some way, like a movie theater, did you ever talk about—? You and friends, or siblings, ever talk about having to go upstairs or go into the side entrance or anything? John Harold Boucree: As we grew up later on, and when you left elementary school, and you got in high school. That's different. Kate Ellis: Well, tell me about that. John Harold Boucree: That's different. Oh, yes. There were questions of, "Why can't we go here?" Because then you got to be personally confronted with that, so then you questioned it. And you did things to circumvent it. Of course, you knew that there were some things that you could not do. And I know that sometimes for the heck of it, couple of us coming from college would go to the drugstore or something like that and sit at the counter, if they weren't going to serve us, then we'd just go and sit, and so— Kate Ellis: You don't [indistinct 00:43:20]? John Harold Boucree: Yeah, and we didn't make a big scene about it, you know, "You can't be served here. You go over there", "No, no, we don't want to sit over there", "Well, I can't serve you", "Okay, goodbye", and leave and things like that. I guess I was not basically militant as such with it, in terms of kind of pushing for things. I know there was an occasion, which I felt very keenly of the problems with Jim Crowism, at the university, singing with the University Chorus. We were invited to sing for something at the Fairmont Hotel, at that time it was Roosevelt Hotel, and Xavier had accepted to sing, I really don't know what the convention was. John Harold Boucree: And Sister Elise, who was the director with us, with another nun to sing, and we went to go to the hotel and went up to the front and they stopped her at the front door and said to her, "You can't come in." So she says, "Well, we are a program for singing." So they said to her, "Well, you two can come in, but they can't come through the front. They've got to go around the back to the freight elevator." So she says, "No, we will not come through the front door. We're going where the students are going to go." John Harold Boucree: So it created a little scene there, and they insisted that the nuns come through the front door and the nun says, "No, if the students can't come through the front, then we will not go through the front." So there was a little meeting or something like that, and they decided, "No, the students will not go through the front." So Sister Elise said, "Well, since we're contracted to sing, we will go with the students." John Harold Boucree: So they went and came with us through the freight elevator upstairs. And of course we heard the apology to the nuns about it, and they were very adamant, says, "No, you invited us here. We belong with the students, and if the students can't come in. We won't come." "Well, sister, when you left—" She says, "Well, whichever entrance the students leave—" "Well, the law won't let us let them go through the front door." Kate Ellis: Okay. Huh. John Harold Boucree: So they left with us in that kind of event there. Kate Ellis: And was that early 40s? John Harold Boucree: Yes, that was in the early 40s. As a student who was a lover of music, I was an education major. My major was mathematics with a minor in Latin, and I was certified to teach mathematics, Latin, English, social studies and music. All that kind of stuff. But a lot of people thought I was a music major, but I just liked music. And for the operas, I mean, the concerts, philharmonic concerts, at the auditorium, the university, Xavier, Loyola, Tulane and Dillard, were asked to provide students to serve as ushers for the program. At that time, they did not have paid ushers. So the students, you got a chance to hear the concerts by serving as an usher. Kate Ellis: This was at the municipal auditorium? John Harold Boucree: Yes. Yeah. No, this was at the Orpheum Theater. Kate Ellis: Oh, okay. John Harold Boucree: Was it the Orpheum?