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<v Woman>Thank you so much for meeting me, Randy.</v>

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If you could say your name.

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<v Randy>Randy Nelson.</v>

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<v ->And are you lay or clergy?</v>
<v ->I am clergy.</v>

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I am an ordained member of the

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Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

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<v Woman>Thank you very much.</v>

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When and where were you born, Randy?

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<v Randy>I was born in South Dakota,</v>

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a small community, Watertown, South Dakota,

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in October of 1941.

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<v Woman>Okay, great. Where did you go to school?</v>

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Graduate, Divinity school?

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<v Randy>Went to grade school, high school in</v>

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my small community of Strandburg, South Dakota.

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Went to college in Gustavus Adolphus in St Peter, Minnesota.

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Went to seminary first in Rock Island, Illinois,

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and then graduated from the

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Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago.

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I had moved there,

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and then did a master's and a doctorate

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at the University of Chicago Divinity School.

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<v Woman>Okay.</v>

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<v Randy>Did some graduate work,</v>

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or some sabbatical work

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in Cambridge, England, at Cambridge University,

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and

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that's the academic part.

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<v Woman>Yes. That sounds wonderful, actually.</v>

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What work or ministry were you

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doing at the time of Re-imagining?

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<v Randy>I was on the faculty at Luther seminary</v>

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in Saint Paul, Minnesota.

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I was the director of contextual education,

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which was the seminary's program for

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placing students who are preparing for ministry

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in congregations all around the country

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and in some overseas sites,

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so, I supervised their placements.

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It was a one year...

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They were in a, basically, in apprenticeship

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I don't know, for a year, and I and my colleagues,

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at one point there were three of us,

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at another point there were four of us,

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another point there were two of us.

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We ended up supervising them

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in that year of internship.

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<v Woman>Yeah, and how long did you do that, Randy?</v>

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<v ->Thirty-two years.</v>
<v ->Wow.</v>

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<v Randy>And for most of those 32 years,</v>

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I would say for, maybe,

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28 or 29, it was our practice to visit our interns

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in their places, each year.

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And so I would make,

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one year I made 60 site visits throughout the country

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and then other years, it was mostly between 30 and 40.

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<v Woman>Wow, that's a lot.</v>

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<v Randy>I was, basically, every other week</v>

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I would be gone from end of November through

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end of March.

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<v Woman>And this was all over the country?</v>

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<v Randy>Yes, and then about, all over the country</v>

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and in about seven or eight foreign countries

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over the time, as well.

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<v ->Really? So you visited there, too,</v>

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the foreign countries, wow.

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<v Randy>We did, up until the last two or three years,</v>

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when we did not do visits anymore.

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<v Woman>Yeah, yeah, yeah.</v>

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And you're retired?

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<v Randy>I am retired.</v>

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I retired in

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June of

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of 2007.

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<v Woman>Yes.</v>

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<v Randy>My wife, who was a school social worker,</v>

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retired the same year.

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So, we've been in retirement now for,

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this is our ninth year.

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<v Woman>Wonderful, great.</v>

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How and when did you first become aware

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of feminist theology?

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<v Randy>Well, I suspect,</v>

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well, yeah, when I was at the University of Chicago,

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at the divinity school, for a couple of years,

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I also served part-time on the faculty

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of the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago,

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and a couple of those years, I was in internship,

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a couple years I was teaching in church and society,

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and a couple years I was active dean of students.

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<v Woman>Oh, wow.</v>

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<v Randy>And so, in those years, we had</v>

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not very many, but we did have some women students

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that were coming.

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So that was one of the impetus for my interest.

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Another was a colleague of mine

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at the University of Chicago.

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Her name was Mary Pellauer.

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She was a part of the feminist movement,

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and so she and I were

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classmates, although class is a little different

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when you talk about graduate school.

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So, that would've been the early,

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the early interests, and then basically coming here

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and being at Luther Seminary.

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I ended up having a strong interest in

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feminist theology, and

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I seem to be able to relate,

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to women students fairly well.

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This is not quite what you asked, but it's related,

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I also became very interested, at that point,

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in LGBT community.

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<v Woman>Yes.</v>

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<v Randy>Especially some of the women students</v>

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who were lesbian, but could not be out.

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<v Woman>Right.</v>

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<v Randy>Would come and, we'd talk about,</v>

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well, what are your options and that kind of thing.

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<v Woman>Wow, no, that's definitely related, yeah.</v>

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So it's interesting, so it was largely your,

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the women and students who were,

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that's what sparked your interest?

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<v ->Right.</v>
<v ->Yeah.</v>

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Being supportive of them.

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<v Randy>Yes, yes, and then I would start to read</v>

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some of the feminist theology.

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So, it was primarily, though, experiential,

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is what triggered it.

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And, I mean, that's not surprising since my whole ministry

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was basically working with experiential learning.

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<v Woman>Right.</v>

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The doctorate was pretty much academic theology,

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but most of my ministry was more, okay,

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how do you put this into practice?

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<v ->Makes sense.</v>
<v ->Yeah.</v>

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<v ->Absolutely.</v>
<v ->It does, for me, at least.</v>

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<v Woman>If we could talk about the Re-Imagining Community.</v>

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Could you talk about your relationship that you're in,

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in Re-imagining community, what kind of role you play?

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<v Randy>Sure, sure.</v>

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My first involvement was

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with the Decade for Women.

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It started in, what,

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'88, '88.

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<v Woman>Yeah.</v>

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<v Randy>And I was asked by</v>

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a senate staff person if I would, in some sense,

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represent the Lutheran church as a part of that

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planning committee, or

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I'm not sure what we called it at that point.

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But anyway, Sally Hill was the one who kind of,

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both invited me to be on this,

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and also, then, encouraged me, so.

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From '88 I was a part of that planning committee,

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and it wasn't a planning committee yet.

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By about '95, it became clear that not much was happening

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in terms of what's going on here in the cities,

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or really anyplace, and so that group said,

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we need to put on a conference.

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<v Woman>Okay. Can I interrupt for one minute?</v>

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Is this,

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the church councils, the Minneapolis?

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<v Randy>Yeah.</v>

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<v Woman>Yeah, yeah, okay, sorry to interrupt.</v>

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Okay, go ahead.

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<v Randy>Yeah, and I don't know exactly</v>

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who started the thing because Sally was with

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the Council of Churches.

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So I became a part of that,

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planning for the first major conference.

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And we played a kind of minor role in that, but

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was involved from the beginning with that.

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So, participated in that conference,

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and then, when that one was over,

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we basically thought we're done.

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This is it, we're done.

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Well, the response was

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so major and so much of it was negative,

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that it became clear that we couldn't just fade away

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because there were some people that needed

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that help, support, and we thought we could offer that.

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And so, instead of a one and done,

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we continued to work, and then

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we decided, well, we needed to do some more of these.

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And I'm not exactly sure why

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I was invited, but Pam Jorn and Jerry Smith and I

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were asked if we would be chairs for the '98 conference.

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I think all three of us said, well, we won't do it alone.

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So if we can't do it together, we won't do it.

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So we agreed to do it.

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And so we did it in '98, and

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then, when that one was over,

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we said that they were still not done.

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So the three of us became tri chairs again

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for the 2000 conference.

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And, I think after that,

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the three of us said, okay,

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if there's gonna be more of these, that's great,

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but we're not gonna be the instigators or

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organizers, or whatever it was called.

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And so, we did those two conf--

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chaired those two conferences,

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and then stayed somewhat involved.

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It became, really, a bonding conference for Jerry

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and Pam and I, as we had continued to meet regularly,

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almost on a once-a-month basis, since then,

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so I suppose you could say, we started in '98,

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then we were meeting more than once a month, of course,

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for the planning.

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So it's been almost, it's been close to 20 years

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in which we've met regularly,

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over breakfast, once a month.

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That's been a,

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that's been just a great, fun experience.

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<v Woman>I love that.</v>

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<v Randy>One other thing just went through my mind</v>

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and I've now lost it.

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Oh, my other involvement with the Re-Imagining Community

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was we put out a newsletter, or a monthly.

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And Nancy Burnekin was the one who was the first editor.

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No--

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<v ->Pam Jorn was.</v>
<v ->Pam Jorn.</v>

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<v Woman>Yes, and then Nancy, you got it.</v>

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<v Randy>And then Nancy Burnekin,</v>

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and I served on the editorial council for both of these.

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And I would occasionally write an article, or whatever.

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But, again, that group would meet pretty much

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on a monthly basis.

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We did editorial work for them.

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So, my main involvement was with the two conferences,

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but then also the ongoing work with the

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Re-Imagining newsletter, or the,

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it was more than a newsletter, it was a magazine,

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20 to 30 pages long.

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That was fun.

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In a former life, or in a different life,

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I would've been an editor.

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<v Woman>Really?</v>

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<v Randy>If I can't proof something and find a mistake,</v>

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then there's something wrong with me.

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(laughing)

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It was all in good fun, and it was great to work

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with both Pam and Nancy in that context, also.

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<v Woman>Oh, yes.</v>

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Randy, I want to hear more details,

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'cause you were involved in so many important ways.

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This is great.

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First of all, when you think back to the planning,

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when you were on the Ecumenical Decade,

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the church council, all of that, could you tell me

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a little bit more about how this all evolved

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into the conference that it became?

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Do you remember that?

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<v Randy>Well,</v>

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my main memory is that we,

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it was an Ecumenical Decade, but we had gone

257
00:12:19.362 --> 00:12:20.416
three or four years,

258
00:12:20.416 --> 00:12:24.565
and nothing much seemed to be happening.

259
00:12:24.565 --> 00:12:25.418
<v Woman>Across the country?</v>

260
00:12:25.418 --> 00:12:27.289
<v Randy>Across the country.</v>

261
00:12:27.289 --> 00:12:30.498
And Sally, I think, said, something's gotta happen

262
00:12:30.498 --> 00:12:34.200
or we're gonna have 10 years and, what?

263
00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:38.350
And so, it was Sally that really was the prime mover

264
00:12:38.350 --> 00:12:41.100
of this, but I think it was good,

265
00:12:42.335 --> 00:12:44.697
good participation and awareness.

266
00:12:44.697 --> 00:12:46.849
Again, we needed to do something,

267
00:12:46.849 --> 00:12:49.783
because nobody else seemed to be doing anything.

268
00:12:49.783 --> 00:12:53.700
So, we decided, well, let's do this conference.

269
00:12:54.869 --> 00:12:56.202
And I'm not sure

270
00:12:58.498 --> 00:13:02.581
how we settled on the notion of re-imagining God,

271
00:13:03.580 --> 00:13:06.247
all the theology, quote, topics.

272
00:13:07.203 --> 00:13:10.820
But it became clear early on that what we wanted to do

273
00:13:10.820 --> 00:13:14.320
was a conference, and basically, the staff

274
00:13:16.846 --> 00:13:19.346
staffed by female theologians.

275
00:13:20.260 --> 00:13:23.678
And, again, it was Sally with her kind of content,

276
00:13:23.678 --> 00:13:26.483
who said, well we don't need to just stay local.

277
00:13:26.483 --> 00:13:29.945
We can go national, in fact we can go international.

278
00:13:29.945 --> 00:13:33.612
And so, we had presenters at that conference

279
00:13:35.387 --> 00:13:37.387
from all over the world,

280
00:13:38.435 --> 00:13:42.102
Africa, Asia, Europe, and the United States.

281
00:13:44.531 --> 00:13:48.677
I think we were all surprised at the response.

282
00:13:48.677 --> 00:13:52.059
I'm not sure how many we thought we were gonna have,

283
00:13:52.059 --> 00:13:56.247
but when we ended up with 2,200, that was kinda like

284
00:13:56.247 --> 00:13:59.346
oh, there is something on here

285
00:13:59.346 --> 00:14:01.545
that needs to be tapped.

286
00:14:01.545 --> 00:14:04.894
And it turned out to be, I don't have the exact figures,

287
00:14:04.894 --> 00:14:09.061
but about 2,100 women and about 100 men attended that.

288
00:14:10.584 --> 00:14:13.916
And then, it had its own momentum.

289
00:14:13.916 --> 00:14:15.166
And, of course,

290
00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:19.650
by describing it as re-imagining,

291
00:14:19.650 --> 00:14:23.733
and some of the presenters were really quite bold

292
00:14:24.572 --> 00:14:27.572
in re-imagining very traditional and

293
00:14:29.143 --> 00:14:30.310
in some sense,

294
00:14:31.903 --> 00:14:35.570
untouchable topics that they dared to touch.

295
00:14:36.493 --> 00:14:38.441
And then, of course, that

296
00:14:38.441 --> 00:14:41.412
because there was some ecumenical money involved

297
00:14:41.412 --> 00:14:45.720
from the various denominations, some of those denominations,

298
00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:49.887
or parts of those denominations, became very critical, and

299
00:14:51.901 --> 00:14:54.504
they said they took off some of the presenters

300
00:14:54.504 --> 00:14:56.754
and some of the organizers.

301
00:14:59.179 --> 00:15:01.784
One of the unfortunate things is that several persons

302
00:15:01.784 --> 00:15:02.617
lost jobs,

303
00:15:06.430 --> 00:15:09.791
were emotionally abused, not physically,

304
00:15:09.791 --> 00:15:13.784
as far as I know, but emotionally and psychologically

305
00:15:13.784 --> 00:15:15.451
targeted for heresy,

306
00:15:16.949 --> 00:15:19.228
I mean, there was no

307
00:15:19.228 --> 00:15:22.972
it wasn't quite that formal, but that was the implication.

308
00:15:22.972 --> 00:15:25.972
That these feminist theologians were

309
00:15:27.451 --> 00:15:28.534
out of bounds

310
00:15:29.724 --> 00:15:30.557
and were

311
00:15:32.083 --> 00:15:35.992
targeting the faith, destroying the faith for the churches

312
00:15:35.992 --> 00:15:37.672
and that kind of thing.

313
00:15:37.672 --> 00:15:39.336
And the leverage they had was that there was

314
00:15:39.336 --> 00:15:42.307
some ecumenical money involved.

315
00:15:42.307 --> 00:15:45.280
So, it was kinda like, well how come our money is being sent

316
00:15:45.280 --> 00:15:49.267
being spent for such and such a thing?

317
00:15:49.267 --> 00:15:51.584
So, then, as I say,

318
00:15:51.584 --> 00:15:55.449
then it kind of had its own momentum after that.

319
00:15:55.449 --> 00:15:57.772
And it was kinda like, well, we got a tiger going here.

320
00:15:57.772 --> 00:16:00.295
We can't just drop it.

321
00:16:00.295 --> 00:16:02.410
We could've, I think, if the response had been

322
00:16:02.410 --> 00:16:05.577
either neutral or maybe more positive.

323
00:16:07.003 --> 00:16:09.279
Then I think we could've said, well, we did our thing.

324
00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:11.191
<v Woman>Right.</v>

325
00:16:11.191 --> 00:16:13.835
<v Randy>But it was clear, if we didn't continue,</v>

326
00:16:13.835 --> 00:16:16.191
some people were really gonna be hurt,

327
00:16:16.191 --> 00:16:18.797
and they were anyway, but at least we could provide

328
00:16:18.797 --> 00:16:22.964
a support for them, which I think we did pretty well.

329
00:16:24.819 --> 00:16:27.206
<v Woman>Yeah, yeah.</v>

330
00:16:27.206 --> 00:16:30.789
<v Randy>I, at least, from my perspective,</v>

331
00:16:32.514 --> 00:16:34.797
went into this fairly innocently, so I mean,

332
00:16:34.797 --> 00:16:38.504
I don't recall all the ins and outs of this

333
00:16:38.504 --> 00:16:41.314
until after the fact, and then, oh,

334
00:16:41.314 --> 00:16:42.327
were we aware of that?

335
00:16:42.327 --> 00:16:43.953
Should we have been aware of that?

336
00:16:43.953 --> 00:16:45.779
Should we have expected this?

337
00:16:45.779 --> 00:16:48.219
Well no, I don't think any of us did.

338
00:16:48.219 --> 00:16:50.908
<v Woman>And why didn't you expect it?</v>

339
00:16:50.908 --> 00:16:52.249
<v Randy>'Cause I think most of us thought,</v>

340
00:16:52.249 --> 00:16:54.204
this is what theology's about.

341
00:16:54.204 --> 00:16:57.055
It's about group creativity and it's about

342
00:16:57.055 --> 00:17:00.388
thinking outside the box, and that's not

343
00:17:02.991 --> 00:17:06.074
that's not something that ought to be

344
00:17:07.464 --> 00:17:08.881
stifled, I guess.

345
00:17:10.466 --> 00:17:12.988
Now, obviously, when you think about it,

346
00:17:12.988 --> 00:17:15.321
most of us were like-minded.

347
00:17:16.851 --> 00:17:19.351
There was no what I would call

348
00:17:20.961 --> 00:17:23.563
conservative fundamentalists in that group.

349
00:17:23.563 --> 00:17:26.290
So there was nobody there who was saying,

350
00:17:26.290 --> 00:17:29.340
well, you can't do that because the bible says this.

351
00:17:29.340 --> 00:17:31.740
No, so I think we were,

352
00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:36.092
we were naive, I would say we were naive in that sense.

353
00:17:36.092 --> 00:17:39.997
That we thought the whole theological arena

354
00:17:39.997 --> 00:17:43.983
was more open than it turned out to be.

355
00:17:43.983 --> 00:17:47.361
And, I think we were not aware of how

356
00:17:47.361 --> 00:17:50.403
okay, academic theory is one thing, but then you have

357
00:17:50.403 --> 00:17:52.805
the whole lay community of the churches,

358
00:17:52.805 --> 00:17:55.619
and they were less interested,

359
00:17:55.619 --> 00:17:57.291
I shouldn't say less interested.

360
00:17:57.291 --> 00:18:00.871
They were more afraid of what this meant

361
00:18:00.871 --> 00:18:05.038
because, okay, if you can challenge that part of my faith,

362
00:18:06.123 --> 00:18:10.290
then I'm not sure what I've got left, kinda thing.

363
00:18:13.338 --> 00:18:16.300
We were, I think, both like-minded in what

364
00:18:16.300 --> 00:18:19.062
we were hoping for, but also then, naive

365
00:18:19.062 --> 00:18:23.775
in the dimensions of the church community, especially,

366
00:18:23.775 --> 00:18:26.462
that were not prepared for that kind of

367
00:18:26.462 --> 00:18:29.996
outside of the norm kind of thinking.

368
00:18:29.996 --> 00:18:32.480
<v Woman>Yeah, and you mentioned earlier about</v>

369
00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:34.796
untouchable topics, or topics,

370
00:18:34.796 --> 00:18:38.338
what would you say were the issues that really--

371
00:18:38.338 --> 00:18:41.582
<v Randy>Well, one of them was atonement,</v>

372
00:18:41.582 --> 00:18:45.685
and there was a thought about, well, maybe Jesus,

373
00:18:45.685 --> 00:18:47.270
that the normal understanding of Jesus

374
00:18:47.270 --> 00:18:49.340
as dying for one's sins,

375
00:18:49.340 --> 00:18:52.226
maybe we need to rethink what that means.

376
00:18:52.226 --> 00:18:54.221
Another was the

377
00:18:54.221 --> 00:18:55.054
image of

378
00:18:56.656 --> 00:19:00.647
of milk and honey, which was seen by some to be

379
00:19:00.647 --> 00:19:01.897
a reflection on

380
00:19:04.317 --> 00:19:07.086
critiquing the eucharist, or

381
00:19:07.086 --> 00:19:08.169
somehow that,

382
00:19:09.446 --> 00:19:11.962
that was not a good thing to be doing.

383
00:19:11.962 --> 00:19:15.579
Another was the Adam and Eve, the apples

384
00:19:15.579 --> 00:19:19.129
with the Korean woman who kind of--

385
00:19:19.129 --> 00:19:20.269
<v Woman>Chung Hyun Kyung?</v>

386
00:19:20.269 --> 00:19:23.522
<v Randy>Yeah, instead of saying</v>

387
00:19:23.522 --> 00:19:26.775
biting of the apple is a problem,

388
00:19:26.775 --> 00:19:28.915
she said, well, we're gonna bite the apple,

389
00:19:28.915 --> 00:19:29.748
(laughing)

390
00:19:29.748 --> 00:19:33.396
and, of course, without any explanation of that.

391
00:19:33.396 --> 00:19:35.512
That seemed to be saying,

392
00:19:35.512 --> 00:19:38.606
(mumbles) at least, or

393
00:19:38.606 --> 00:19:42.106
how sin comes about, so atonement was one.

394
00:19:46.341 --> 00:19:48.924
The creation story was another.

395
00:19:50.257 --> 00:19:54.902
I would say, the whole notion of sin, worship,

396
00:19:54.902 --> 00:19:59.069
music, ritual, all of that was, at least on the edge.

397
00:20:00.032 --> 00:20:01.578
<v Woman>Yes, yeah.</v>

398
00:20:01.578 --> 00:20:03.745
<v Randy>And while it was</v>

399
00:20:04.703 --> 00:20:06.900
we thought it was the thing to be doing,

400
00:20:06.900 --> 00:20:08.487
was to kind of open this up.

401
00:20:08.487 --> 00:20:09.468
<v Woman>Right.</v>

402
00:20:09.468 --> 00:20:11.095
<v Randy>Many people in the church,</v>

403
00:20:11.095 --> 00:20:13.170
at least the vocal ones in the church said,

404
00:20:13.170 --> 00:20:14.269
you can't do that.

405
00:20:14.269 --> 00:20:17.356
<v Woman>Right, right, yeah.</v>

406
00:20:17.356 --> 00:20:21.549
What was your experience like at the '93 conference?

407
00:20:21.549 --> 00:20:22.382
Do you remember?

408
00:20:22.382 --> 00:20:24.299
<v Randy>Yeah, it was,</v>

409
00:20:25.572 --> 00:20:30.001
well, I was doing a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff,

410
00:20:30.001 --> 00:20:32.034
so I didn't get to hear everything.

411
00:20:32.034 --> 00:20:34.195
And, that's okay.

412
00:20:34.195 --> 00:20:36.528
My most vivid memory of that

413
00:20:37.366 --> 00:20:39.533
was the closing conference

414
00:20:40.743 --> 00:20:42.410
when, at that event,

415
00:20:44.524 --> 00:20:48.183
we started singing We're Marching in the Light of God,

416
00:20:48.183 --> 00:20:50.420
and the whole auditorium

417
00:20:50.420 --> 00:20:52.503
was, basically, marching.

418
00:20:56.742 --> 00:20:59.751
I was partly awestruck by the fact

419
00:20:59.751 --> 00:21:03.293
that I had been invited to participate in the event

420
00:21:03.293 --> 00:21:06.305
which was clearly feminist, and I'm not a woman.

421
00:21:06.305 --> 00:21:08.418
So, there was a part of me that was saying,

422
00:21:08.418 --> 00:21:13.054
I can't believe that I have been invited to be part of this.

423
00:21:13.054 --> 00:21:17.221
And then to be able to do that kind of celebrative dance

424
00:21:18.788 --> 00:21:21.797
at the end, was just great.

425
00:21:21.797 --> 00:21:24.602
I was also aware of, during the conference,

426
00:21:24.602 --> 00:21:26.685
the sense in which LGBTQ,

427
00:21:28.339 --> 00:21:31.839
it wasn't Q then, I guess it was just LGBT

428
00:21:33.692 --> 00:21:38.449
persons became very visible and were basically saying,

429
00:21:38.449 --> 00:21:42.532
we're not gonna apologize for who we are anymore.

430
00:21:45.688 --> 00:21:49.265
I guess three things, one being the closing celebration,

431
00:21:49.265 --> 00:21:52.604
the kind of coming out of the LGBT candidates,

432
00:21:52.604 --> 00:21:55.937
and the behind-the-scenes work of, okay,

433
00:21:57.086 --> 00:21:59.174
which speaker has to be where at what time,

434
00:21:59.174 --> 00:22:00.555
and that kind of thing.

435
00:22:00.555 --> 00:22:03.722
And I did some transporting of people,

436
00:22:05.317 --> 00:22:08.568
which I ended up doing all three of them

437
00:22:08.568 --> 00:22:11.008
and then I did find out

438
00:22:11.008 --> 00:22:14.925
(machine whirring over speech)

439
00:22:25.276 --> 00:22:26.822
I would make a note in my journal of,

440
00:22:26.822 --> 00:22:31.136
this time I brought Rebecca Walker to the airport

441
00:22:31.136 --> 00:22:32.437
or something like that.

442
00:22:32.437 --> 00:22:35.689
Another time, I think (mumbles).

443
00:22:35.689 --> 00:22:38.939
So I was one of those who had a vehicle

444
00:22:40.007 --> 00:22:42.924
and I had time and I could do that.

445
00:22:43.870 --> 00:22:45.542
And I thought it was more important for me

446
00:22:45.542 --> 00:22:47.168
to do something about organizing

447
00:22:47.168 --> 00:22:50.910
than to be making sure I heard everything

448
00:22:50.910 --> 00:22:54.410
and preventing some other one from hearing

449
00:22:55.501 --> 00:22:59.847
when I could be doing behind-the-scenes stuff.

450
00:22:59.847 --> 00:23:04.014
As I say, that I did with all three of the major ones.

451
00:23:04.969 --> 00:23:07.250
There were several of the minor ones, in between,

452
00:23:07.250 --> 00:23:10.629
that I did not have much involvement with.

453
00:23:10.629 --> 00:23:13.546
<v ->Did you attend those?</v>
<v ->Yes, yeah.</v>

454
00:23:14.877 --> 00:23:16.573
And that was fine, too.

455
00:23:16.573 --> 00:23:17.672
I'm in a different role.

456
00:23:17.672 --> 00:23:18.934
<v Woman>Yes.</v>

457
00:23:18.934 --> 00:23:20.031
You mentioned being,

458
00:23:20.031 --> 00:23:21.371
I think the phrase that was often used was,

459
00:23:21.371 --> 00:23:23.119
one of the few good men

460
00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:24.989
that were involved.

461
00:23:24.989 --> 00:23:26.695
I'm just curious, how would you describe

462
00:23:26.695 --> 00:23:28.481
what it was like being a man and involved

463
00:23:28.481 --> 00:23:30.557
in this organization that was primarily women?

464
00:23:30.557 --> 00:23:32.061
<v Randy>Yeah, it was.</v>

465
00:23:32.061 --> 00:23:36.577
Well, I think having been a part of the Ecumenical Decade

466
00:23:36.577 --> 00:23:38.044
committee, from the beginning.

467
00:23:38.044 --> 00:23:41.294
It wasn't like I have to find my place.

468
00:23:44.472 --> 00:23:47.972
And there was such a great group of women.

469
00:23:50.247 --> 00:23:52.279
They welcomed me.

470
00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:54.721
As I said, I did feel like, kinda

471
00:23:54.721 --> 00:23:56.229
when I would stand up and think,

472
00:23:56.229 --> 00:23:58.979
how did I get into this position?

473
00:24:00.091 --> 00:24:01.924
And not in a sense of,

474
00:24:02.897 --> 00:24:06.290
as a bad place to be, but how did I,

475
00:24:06.290 --> 00:24:09.832
how did I get to be in this situation?

476
00:24:09.832 --> 00:24:11.332
And it was because

477
00:24:12.845 --> 00:24:15.262
so many of the planning women

478
00:24:16.876 --> 00:24:18.180
simply welcomed me in.

479
00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:21.341
And it wasn't a question, well you gotta,

480
00:24:21.341 --> 00:24:22.989
you gotta prove to us why you belong here.

481
00:24:22.989 --> 00:24:24.418
Not that at all.

482
00:24:24.418 --> 00:24:27.335
It was, welcome, let's do the work.

483
00:24:28.359 --> 00:24:32.182
But, I mean, there are still parts of me that think,

484
00:24:32.182 --> 00:24:34.745
and still times when I wonder,

485
00:24:34.745 --> 00:24:39.295
how was I both able to do this and why was I so lucky

486
00:24:39.295 --> 00:24:41.572
that I was able to be a part of this?

487
00:24:41.572 --> 00:24:44.580
Because I really do find it, I think of it

488
00:24:44.580 --> 00:24:49.093
as one of the major, major events in my life,

489
00:24:49.093 --> 00:24:50.010
in terms of

490
00:24:51.172 --> 00:24:54.255
welcoming and being just accepted and

491
00:24:55.725 --> 00:24:59.225
having a place and a spot in which to give

492
00:25:00.923 --> 00:25:02.104
to bring my gifts.

493
00:25:02.104 --> 00:25:03.187
<v ->Wow.</v>
<v ->Yeah.</v>

494
00:25:09.876 --> 00:25:11.499
I should say a little bit about my background,

495
00:25:11.499 --> 00:25:13.939
because I grew up in rural South Dakota,

496
00:25:13.939 --> 00:25:17.189
very traditional, normal kind of place.

497
00:25:18.085 --> 00:25:21.629
You know, rural values, I would say.

498
00:25:21.629 --> 00:25:23.796
My family, my parents were

499
00:25:25.493 --> 00:25:28.326
normal kind of Republican persons.

500
00:25:30.008 --> 00:25:32.037
And so, there was a part of me that thinks,

501
00:25:32.037 --> 00:25:35.870
how did a little country boy from South Dakota

502
00:25:36.712 --> 00:25:39.795
get into this kind of a international

503
00:25:41.391 --> 00:25:42.224
milieu?

504
00:25:43.306 --> 00:25:46.389
I still think about that on occasion.

505
00:25:47.453 --> 00:25:49.783
I don't know how it happened. I'm sure that it did.

506
00:25:49.783 --> 00:25:52.553
But I don't know how, because nothing, in some sense,

507
00:25:52.553 --> 00:25:54.017
prepared me for that.

508
00:25:54.017 --> 00:25:55.439
Well, I shouldn't say that.

509
00:25:55.439 --> 00:25:56.606
After college,

510
00:25:57.676 --> 00:26:00.930
it's one of those things where

511
00:26:00.930 --> 00:26:03.783
I had not planned out what I wanted to do.

512
00:26:03.783 --> 00:26:06.020
It just kinda comes.

513
00:26:06.020 --> 00:26:09.703
So, when I was a senior in college,

514
00:26:09.703 --> 00:26:11.703
my philosophy prof said,

515
00:26:15.819 --> 00:26:18.061
well, you're applying, aren't you,

516
00:26:18.061 --> 00:26:19.725
for a Fulbright scholarship?

517
00:26:19.725 --> 00:26:20.975
And I said, no.

518
00:26:21.843 --> 00:26:23.187
Well, yeah you are.

519
00:26:23.187 --> 00:26:25.664
So he, basically, had given encouragement.

520
00:26:25.664 --> 00:26:27.983
I applied for a Fulbright scholarship.

521
00:26:27.983 --> 00:26:31.158
Well, I think, okay I'll apply.

522
00:26:31.158 --> 00:26:34.151
Surprisingly, I received a full (mumbles).

523
00:26:34.151 --> 00:26:34.984
<v Woman>Wow.</v>

524
00:26:34.984 --> 00:26:37.612
State government fellowship, so I spent,

525
00:26:37.612 --> 00:26:40.498
between college and seminary, a year in Germany

526
00:26:40.498 --> 00:26:44.162
studying at University of (mumbles).

527
00:26:44.162 --> 00:26:45.329
Well, that was

528
00:26:47.094 --> 00:26:49.044
another pivotal point in my life,

529
00:26:49.044 --> 00:26:51.727
because it started to break me out of a rural,

530
00:26:51.727 --> 00:26:53.353
midwestern mindset, and say hey,

531
00:26:53.353 --> 00:26:54.896
there's another world out there.

532
00:26:54.896 --> 00:26:56.808
<v Woman>Yes, what were you studying there, Randy?</v>

533
00:26:56.808 --> 00:26:59.891
<v Randy>Well, it was social ethics.</v>

534
00:27:01.935 --> 00:27:06.373
I couldn't tell you why my interest in social ethics started

535
00:27:06.373 --> 00:27:09.746
but I carried that forward, then, into seminary,

536
00:27:09.746 --> 00:27:11.618
but especially into graduate school.

537
00:27:11.618 --> 00:27:13.324
<v Woman>Yes.</v>

538
00:27:13.324 --> 00:27:14.911
I'm just curious, this is fascinating.

539
00:27:14.911 --> 00:27:19.078
What led you to divinity school, to becoming a pastor?

540
00:27:20.762 --> 00:27:23.527
<v Randy>Well, I was one of the, we had</v>

541
00:27:23.527 --> 00:27:27.186
our small church in South Dakota basically had

542
00:27:27.186 --> 00:27:30.645
pastors who were nearing the end of their retirement,

543
00:27:30.645 --> 00:27:33.087
or, I'm sorry, nearing the end of their ministry

544
00:27:33.087 --> 00:27:34.064
and heading for retirement.

545
00:27:34.064 --> 00:27:34.897
<v Woman>Yes.</v>

546
00:27:34.897 --> 00:27:36.095
<v Randy>When I was in high school,</v>

547
00:27:36.095 --> 00:27:39.143
we had a seminary graduate, right out of the seminary.

548
00:27:39.143 --> 00:27:42.026
And his goal was to have a youth group here.

549
00:27:42.026 --> 00:27:45.436
Well, there were enough of us kids around, so he did that.

550
00:27:45.436 --> 00:27:47.686
And at that point, I became

551
00:27:50.283 --> 00:27:52.601
one of the leaders in that, and I ended up

552
00:27:52.601 --> 00:27:54.851
doing some supply preaching

553
00:27:56.588 --> 00:27:59.440
as a junior in high school

554
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:01.476
in rural churches in South Dakota.

555
00:28:01.476 --> 00:28:02.615
<v Woman>Wow.</v>

556
00:28:02.615 --> 00:28:05.459
<v Randy>And, it was the kind of thing where,</v>

557
00:28:05.459 --> 00:28:07.779
okay you showed some aptitude for it,

558
00:28:07.779 --> 00:28:09.655
the ministry's a great profession, sure.

559
00:28:09.655 --> 00:28:10.751
You ought to do it.

560
00:28:10.751 --> 00:28:12.418
(laughing)

561
00:28:12.418 --> 00:28:15.304
Then, as I say, I mean okay, I can do that.

562
00:28:15.304 --> 00:28:16.526
So I did.

563
00:28:16.526 --> 00:28:17.776
So, it wasn't a

564
00:28:19.375 --> 00:28:22.347
it was not a conversion experience or anything,

565
00:28:22.347 --> 00:28:25.765
I mean, it was not a blinding light.

566
00:28:25.765 --> 00:28:28.830
You've got the gifts, so that's what I did.

567
00:28:28.830 --> 00:28:29.769
<v Woman>Wonderful.</v>

568
00:28:29.769 --> 00:28:31.769
That's great, I love it.

569
00:28:34.040 --> 00:28:36.765
This is great, we've talked about,

570
00:28:36.765 --> 00:28:39.691
did the backlash affect you at all directly?

571
00:28:39.691 --> 00:28:42.045
You were talking some about that.

572
00:28:42.045 --> 00:28:43.295
<v Randy>Well,</v>

573
00:28:46.843 --> 00:28:51.010
I was identified in several conservative Lutheran papers

574
00:28:53.141 --> 00:28:56.058
as one who had been a part of that.

575
00:28:57.499 --> 00:29:01.643
The bishop that at that time was Herb Jolstrom,

576
00:29:01.643 --> 00:29:04.725
and so, some of the inquiries came to him.

577
00:29:04.725 --> 00:29:07.527
And he said, well, why don't you be in touch

578
00:29:07.527 --> 00:29:10.184
with Randy Nelson, he's a part of it.

579
00:29:10.184 --> 00:29:11.769
And I remember one of them,

580
00:29:11.769 --> 00:29:15.223
it was in a paper called the Lutheran Commentator

581
00:29:15.223 --> 00:29:17.390
and the editor said, well,

582
00:29:18.556 --> 00:29:22.138
getting in touch with Nelson is like

583
00:29:22.138 --> 00:29:23.559
getting in touch with the fox

584
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:26.476
after the chickens have been eaten.

585
00:29:27.879 --> 00:29:30.652
It was the image, it wasn't the right language.

586
00:29:30.652 --> 00:29:33.938
So there was that, but it was just very minor,

587
00:29:33.938 --> 00:29:36.259
two or three instances like that where

588
00:29:36.259 --> 00:29:37.926
I was referred to as

589
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:43.210
one of those that was a part of it, and

590
00:29:43.210 --> 00:29:47.893
but there was no repercussions at the seminary.

591
00:29:47.893 --> 00:29:49.800
There were some people at the seminary who

592
00:29:49.800 --> 00:29:52.765
clearly didn't think I should've been doing that,

593
00:29:52.765 --> 00:29:54.922
but they were not,

594
00:29:54.922 --> 00:29:59.601
they were not mean or, they didn't come after me.

595
00:29:59.601 --> 00:30:02.768
And I could weather that fairly easily

596
00:30:03.683 --> 00:30:05.762
because by then I had been with the seminary

597
00:30:05.762 --> 00:30:08.813
for almost, well, I started in seminary in '75,

598
00:30:08.813 --> 00:30:12.063
so I was one of the main persons there.

599
00:30:13.491 --> 00:30:17.067
And there was nothing really in the church, itself,

600
00:30:17.067 --> 00:30:19.817
and Lutherans were not picked out

601
00:30:21.012 --> 00:30:22.936
because we had not,

602
00:30:22.936 --> 00:30:26.478
maybe a little bit of sabbatical money but there was

603
00:30:26.478 --> 00:30:30.793
no major money source that could be said, well,

604
00:30:30.793 --> 00:30:32.625
why are you spending Lutheran money?

605
00:30:32.625 --> 00:30:33.801
<v Woman>Right, right.</v>

606
00:30:33.801 --> 00:30:36.242
<v Randy>So, it was,</v>

607
00:30:36.242 --> 00:30:37.343
it was minor.

608
00:30:37.343 --> 00:30:40.593
<v Woman>Yes, yeah, that's good, good.</v>

609
00:30:41.694 --> 00:30:44.743
Talking about Re-Imagining, the community itself,

610
00:30:44.743 --> 00:30:47.576
how would you define Re-Imagining?

611
00:30:50.070 --> 00:30:53.610
<v Randy>Well, it was a community that gathered around</v>

612
00:30:53.610 --> 00:30:56.436
first, supporting a feminist theology,

613
00:30:56.436 --> 00:30:59.353
and then it became a community that

614
00:31:00.603 --> 00:31:03.364
continued, in order to support those who had been

615
00:31:03.364 --> 00:31:07.531
a part of that effort and were now being challenged.

616
00:31:08.536 --> 00:31:12.036
It became, basically, a support community,

617
00:31:12.967 --> 00:31:16.300
and the support was very strong locally.

618
00:31:20.002 --> 00:31:23.053
It continued, then, to be what I think of primarily

619
00:31:23.053 --> 00:31:25.655
as a support community.

620
00:31:25.655 --> 00:31:28.987
It was in a position to provide some educational

621
00:31:28.987 --> 00:31:33.661
experiences and support for persons not from around here.

622
00:31:33.661 --> 00:31:36.756
I can remember one Lutheran woman who was a pastor

623
00:31:36.756 --> 00:31:39.968
in North Dakota, and for her,

624
00:31:39.968 --> 00:31:43.177
the conferences were kind of life-saving

625
00:31:43.177 --> 00:31:47.973
because in her community, she had really no support

626
00:31:47.973 --> 00:31:51.640
(mumbles) to be a feminist.

627
00:31:54.731 --> 00:31:57.814
She would use these events as kind of

628
00:32:00.614 --> 00:32:03.781
restocking or rebuilding her resources

629
00:32:04.702 --> 00:32:06.325
kind of thing.

630
00:32:06.325 --> 00:32:07.833
<v Woman>Were there other ways that the community</v>

631
00:32:07.833 --> 00:32:10.969
provided support, other than the gatherings?

632
00:32:10.969 --> 00:32:15.810
<v Randy>Well, we tried to help groups in other places</v>

633
00:32:15.810 --> 00:32:19.472
develop into small groups so they didn't have to rely

634
00:32:19.472 --> 00:32:22.246
only on Minneapolis, St. Paul,

635
00:32:22.246 --> 00:32:25.423
but they could gather their own.

636
00:32:25.423 --> 00:32:28.430
And then, I would say the newsletter did that also,

637
00:32:28.430 --> 00:32:31.802
because it became a really valuable resource

638
00:32:31.802 --> 00:32:33.969
for, I think, people, who,

639
00:32:35.055 --> 00:32:38.519
and especially for those who couldn't attend the conference.

640
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:41.164
They could still get a sense of what was going on,

641
00:32:41.164 --> 00:32:44.497
and have a sense of participating in it.

642
00:32:46.576 --> 00:32:48.737
Now, I'm sure, those,

643
00:32:48.737 --> 00:32:52.904
I mean, there are ways that others in the community

644
00:32:54.099 --> 00:32:57.517
probably provide additional kinds of support,

645
00:32:57.517 --> 00:33:00.244
but that's what I'm aware of.

646
00:33:00.244 --> 00:33:02.562
<v Woman>Do you have any idea how successful</v>

647
00:33:02.562 --> 00:33:03.575
the small groups were?

648
00:33:03.575 --> 00:33:06.461
How many were formed, or any of that?

649
00:33:06.461 --> 00:33:10.165
<v Randy>I don't think there were a lot of them,</v>

650
00:33:10.165 --> 00:33:13.582
and I don't know how long they continued.

651
00:33:15.084 --> 00:33:18.334
So no, I really don't know how on that.

652
00:33:19.804 --> 00:33:21.309
<v Woman>I wanted to ask a little bit more about</v>

653
00:33:21.309 --> 00:33:23.389
the quarterly publication that you were involved in.

654
00:33:23.389 --> 00:33:25.666
I've been looking through them, and it is amazing

655
00:33:25.666 --> 00:33:27.985
how much is in them, and how integrated it is

656
00:33:27.985 --> 00:33:29.859
with art and poetry.

657
00:33:29.859 --> 00:33:32.015
Could you just say a little bit more about

658
00:33:32.015 --> 00:33:34.738
what you recall of what you were trying to achieve there,

659
00:33:34.738 --> 00:33:37.906
what it was like being involved in that?

660
00:33:37.906 --> 00:33:39.698
<v Randy>Well, one of the things we tried to do</v>

661
00:33:39.698 --> 00:33:42.263
is to keep the theological conversation going

662
00:33:42.263 --> 00:33:46.047
by having, usually there was a lead in which

663
00:33:46.047 --> 00:33:49.221
there was a conversation first with Pam

664
00:33:49.221 --> 00:33:52.760
and then with Nancy, with two or three persons

665
00:33:52.760 --> 00:33:55.813
around a common, around a theme.

666
00:33:55.813 --> 00:33:57.323
So that was a priority way of saying,

667
00:33:57.323 --> 00:34:01.231
let's keep the conversation going theologically.

668
00:34:01.231 --> 00:34:04.484
It was also intended to give an outlet for some people

669
00:34:04.484 --> 00:34:06.781
who wanted to express themselves

670
00:34:06.781 --> 00:34:08.411
and were able to do that.

671
00:34:08.411 --> 00:34:11.328
(machine whirring)

672
00:34:18.691 --> 00:34:20.274
<v Woman>Go ahead.</v>

673
00:34:21.453 --> 00:34:24.870
<v Randy>And, it was also intended to be</v>

674
00:34:25.706 --> 00:34:29.074
an outlet for providing information about

675
00:34:29.074 --> 00:34:33.718
what's going on in various parts of the movement.

676
00:34:33.718 --> 00:34:36.976
So, if a group was meeting out, say, in California,

677
00:34:36.976 --> 00:34:39.809
they could announce that in there.

678
00:34:41.005 --> 00:34:44.338
And it was a chance to express true art,

679
00:34:45.801 --> 00:34:50.282
so many mentions of this whole movement, as well.

680
00:34:50.282 --> 00:34:53.492
Basically, I think it was intended to be a way of

681
00:34:53.492 --> 00:34:55.732
keeping people in touch with each other

682
00:34:55.732 --> 00:34:58.899
in between gatherings and it did that.

683
00:34:59.802 --> 00:35:02.968
I don't have any idea how many actual subscriptions

684
00:35:02.968 --> 00:35:06.468
or how many actual copies were made, so I,

685
00:35:09.730 --> 00:35:10.730
but, it did,

686
00:35:12.536 --> 00:35:15.137
I think it did what it was intended to do,

687
00:35:15.137 --> 00:35:18.717
which was to kind of serve as a glue or a thread

688
00:35:18.717 --> 00:35:19.978
for the whole community.

689
00:35:19.978 --> 00:35:21.116
<v Woman>Yes.</v>

690
00:35:21.116 --> 00:35:22.283
Exactly, yeah.

691
00:35:23.190 --> 00:35:25.346
How would you say feminist theology affected

692
00:35:25.346 --> 00:35:29.263
the structure and functioning of the community?

693
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:33.517
<v Randy>Well, one of the ways it affected it</v>

694
00:35:33.517 --> 00:35:36.239
was in terms of language.

695
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:39.739
There was no hesitancy about talking about

696
00:35:40.669 --> 00:35:42.502
God the mother, and so

697
00:35:43.396 --> 00:35:45.896
feminist imaging was there for

698
00:35:48.767 --> 00:35:50.684
the theological themes.

699
00:35:54.015 --> 00:35:56.848
I think feminist theology was also

700
00:35:59.048 --> 00:36:02.608
prominent in a kind of egalitarian or equality

701
00:36:02.608 --> 00:36:03.858
kind of notion.

702
00:36:05.108 --> 00:36:08.086
It says it's not hierarchical.

703
00:36:08.086 --> 00:36:11.349
It's what the gifts you have that you can bring.

704
00:36:11.349 --> 00:36:14.848
And I think that was modeled pretty well.

705
00:36:14.848 --> 00:36:18.139
So many of the leaders were lay leaders,

706
00:36:18.139 --> 00:36:19.560
I mean, they were not ordained.

707
00:36:19.560 --> 00:36:21.606
There were several, I mean like Sally, ordained,

708
00:36:21.606 --> 00:36:22.956
there were several.

709
00:36:22.956 --> 00:36:25.789
But many of them were lay leaders.

710
00:36:26.697 --> 00:36:28.780
And as far as I can tell,

711
00:36:29.751 --> 00:36:31.168
they did not feel

712
00:36:33.132 --> 00:36:36.549
they felt welcome for the gifts they had.

713
00:36:37.557 --> 00:36:41.307
They weren't intimidated by not being clergy.

714
00:36:44.142 --> 00:36:44.975
So,

715
00:36:53.579 --> 00:36:56.481
this maybe is redundant, but

716
00:36:56.481 --> 00:36:59.629
there's a sense in which the theology, itself,

717
00:36:59.629 --> 00:37:02.269
that's very clearly feminist

718
00:37:02.269 --> 00:37:03.269
that was not

719
00:37:04.470 --> 00:37:08.740
it did not worry about well, does the tradition say this?

720
00:37:08.740 --> 00:37:12.966
I mean, it wasn't disrespectful of the tradition,

721
00:37:12.966 --> 00:37:15.330
but it didn't feel that it needed to be simply

722
00:37:15.330 --> 00:37:17.497
(mumbles)

723
00:37:18.971 --> 00:37:20.838
The tradition could be respected,

724
00:37:20.838 --> 00:37:23.255
but we're in a different era.

725
00:37:24.864 --> 00:37:28.855
There's new learning going on in biblical theological area.

726
00:37:28.855 --> 00:37:31.626
We need to deal with that, incorporate that if we can.

727
00:37:31.626 --> 00:37:32.459
So,

728
00:37:33.829 --> 00:37:38.712
it was partly a sense of, let's be creative and that's,

729
00:37:38.712 --> 00:37:41.599
if it develops into something good, that's fine.

730
00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:43.143
If it doesn't, that's okay.

731
00:37:43.143 --> 00:37:47.249
We can, okay that was a good attempt, but it didn't work.

732
00:37:47.249 --> 00:37:51.393
So, we can go back and, if not start over,

733
00:37:51.393 --> 00:37:54.310
but at least take a different tack.

734
00:37:55.624 --> 00:37:58.066
It was also, I think

735
00:37:58.066 --> 00:37:59.692
one of the other things it did was,

736
00:37:59.692 --> 00:38:02.609
it was very committed to diversity.

737
00:38:03.683 --> 00:38:07.463
And that was diversity in terms of the

738
00:38:07.463 --> 00:38:08.630
nationalities,

739
00:38:10.434 --> 00:38:11.267
races,

740
00:38:12.669 --> 00:38:13.836
and it was not

741
00:38:16.167 --> 00:38:18.323
individuals may have had all kinds of trouble

742
00:38:18.323 --> 00:38:19.490
with maleness.

743
00:38:21.613 --> 00:38:23.243
But as a community, it was not

744
00:38:23.243 --> 00:38:25.277
disrespectful of males, either.

745
00:38:25.277 --> 00:38:29.444
In other words, the egalitarianess also extended to,

746
00:38:30.603 --> 00:38:32.758
well, if you want to be a part of this,

747
00:38:32.758 --> 00:38:37.708
you can be a part of it, even if you're not a woman.

748
00:38:37.708 --> 00:38:41.233
And that's partly why I think I continued to be a part of it

749
00:38:41.233 --> 00:38:43.955
was because I didn't have a sense that

750
00:38:43.955 --> 00:38:45.288
I didn't belong.

751
00:38:47.941 --> 00:38:48.858
So I'm not,

752
00:38:50.135 --> 00:38:52.940
there's probably some other ways also, but I think--

753
00:38:52.940 --> 00:38:54.936
<v Woman>Those are very helpful.</v>

754
00:38:54.936 --> 00:38:57.578
<v Randy>I think that's what I,</v>

755
00:38:57.578 --> 00:38:59.328
you need immediately.

756
00:39:00.509 --> 00:39:02.338
<v Woman>Yeah, those are very important.</v>

757
00:39:02.338 --> 00:39:04.413
When you think about the kind of challenges,

758
00:39:04.413 --> 00:39:06.000
you know, during its 10 years of existence,

759
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:08.278
what challenges did the community face?

760
00:39:08.278 --> 00:39:10.778
And how did they address them?

761
00:39:13.767 --> 00:39:15.717
<v Randy>Well, I suppose,</v>

762
00:39:15.717 --> 00:39:17.098
the most vocal challenges

763
00:39:17.098 --> 00:39:19.765
(machine whirs)

764
00:39:27.072 --> 00:39:30.327
the most vocal challenges came from

765
00:39:30.327 --> 00:39:34.160
concerned lay people in various denominations.

766
00:39:35.335 --> 00:39:39.329
And, the way we dealt with it was, partly

767
00:39:39.329 --> 00:39:42.391
to support those who were being attacked,

768
00:39:42.391 --> 00:39:45.974
but it was also not to back off from, okay,

769
00:39:47.086 --> 00:39:48.519
we understand you don't like this,

770
00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:52.724
but we think this is something we need to be thinking about.

771
00:39:52.724 --> 00:39:54.560
So that was one of the challenges.

772
00:39:54.560 --> 00:39:55.893
There were some,

773
00:39:57.291 --> 00:40:01.124
I would say the pushback or the challenge from

774
00:40:03.801 --> 00:40:07.461
professional theologians was more muted

775
00:40:07.461 --> 00:40:09.213
and probably more subtle.

776
00:40:09.213 --> 00:40:12.511
I mean, there wasn't direct out and out,

777
00:40:12.511 --> 00:40:15.761
although there would be comments about,

778
00:40:18.042 --> 00:40:20.974
that doesn't seem to be what we ought to be doing

779
00:40:20.974 --> 00:40:24.029
as theologians, and that kind of stuff.

780
00:40:24.029 --> 00:40:27.850
But I would say the biggest challenge was,

781
00:40:27.850 --> 00:40:32.017
was from the church and its denominational manifestations.

782
00:40:34.489 --> 00:40:36.403
<v Woman>When you talk about the professional theologians,</v>

783
00:40:36.403 --> 00:40:38.765
was this in print or was this more comments?

784
00:40:38.765 --> 00:40:40.437
<v Randy>I think it was more comments.</v>

785
00:40:40.437 --> 00:40:42.429
I mean, there were,

786
00:40:42.429 --> 00:40:45.396
every now and then you'd see a comment in print

787
00:40:45.396 --> 00:40:48.733
from a theologian who was questioning what was going on,

788
00:40:48.733 --> 00:40:51.983
but that was, I'd say, much more muted.

789
00:40:53.355 --> 00:40:55.438
And I'm not sure, I think

790
00:40:56.364 --> 00:40:59.582
I think part of that was because

791
00:40:59.582 --> 00:41:01.903
they said, this isn't a serious movement.

792
00:41:01.903 --> 00:41:03.535
<v Woman>Oh, yeah.</v>

793
00:41:03.535 --> 00:41:05.529
<v Randy>I mean, they didn't think it was,</v>

794
00:41:05.529 --> 00:41:06.446
and I think

795
00:41:08.336 --> 00:41:12.503
they thought, you know, we don't need to address this.

796
00:41:14.520 --> 00:41:16.639
Well, they probably didn't.

797
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:19.324
But when the lay people got upset,

798
00:41:19.324 --> 00:41:22.133
then in some sense, it became a serious movement.

799
00:41:22.133 --> 00:41:23.966
<v Woman>Yes, yeah.</v>

800
00:41:23.966 --> 00:41:28.133
I wanted to go back to that issue of diversity because

801
00:41:29.041 --> 00:41:32.012
I would say that the community did very well

802
00:41:32.012 --> 00:41:35.225
at getting racially and ethnically diverse speakers.

803
00:41:35.225 --> 00:41:36.324
<v Randy>Right.</v>

804
00:41:36.324 --> 00:41:38.929
<v Woman>The general population of the community</v>

805
00:41:38.929 --> 00:41:40.840
tended to be very white and middle class.

806
00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:42.022
<v Randy>Right.</v>

807
00:41:42.022 --> 00:41:42.855
<v Woman>Would you agree with that?</v>

808
00:41:42.855 --> 00:41:43.693
<v Randy>Absolutely.</v>

809
00:41:43.693 --> 00:41:44.691
<v Woman>So do you have any thoughts on that?</v>

810
00:41:44.691 --> 00:41:46.185
Why that was?

811
00:41:46.185 --> 00:41:48.038
Were there attempts to address that?

812
00:41:48.038 --> 00:41:50.562
Just any reflections on that?

813
00:41:50.562 --> 00:41:52.517
<v Randy>Well, one of the attempts to address it</v>

814
00:41:52.517 --> 00:41:56.016
was by the diversity of the speakers.

815
00:41:56.016 --> 00:41:57.685
And we did,

816
00:41:57.685 --> 00:42:01.668
we did try to incorporate into the kind of planning groups

817
00:42:01.668 --> 00:42:05.530
women of color, especially African-American.

818
00:42:05.530 --> 00:42:06.613
I think it's,

819
00:42:08.178 --> 00:42:12.414
because it started out pretty much as a middle-class group,

820
00:42:12.414 --> 00:42:14.326
I think it had some of the same problems

821
00:42:14.326 --> 00:42:16.572
that every middle-class church group has,

822
00:42:16.572 --> 00:42:20.739
and that's, how do you accommodate persons who don't have

823
00:42:23.154 --> 00:42:25.022
for one thing, don't have time,

824
00:42:25.022 --> 00:42:27.630
and they cannot give that kind of volunteer time

825
00:42:27.630 --> 00:42:28.851
that most of us could.

826
00:42:28.851 --> 00:42:29.684
<v Woman>Yes.</v>

827
00:42:29.684 --> 00:42:33.851
<v Randy>Because we were secure in our positions.</v>

828
00:42:35.083 --> 00:42:36.000
And I think

829
00:42:37.767 --> 00:42:40.889
in some sense, the worship and the ritual

830
00:42:40.889 --> 00:42:42.531
was going to the other direction.

831
00:42:42.531 --> 00:42:45.953
In other words, it was not going towards

832
00:42:45.953 --> 00:42:48.190
the spiritual African-American style.

833
00:42:48.190 --> 00:42:51.239
It was heading the other way, in terms of much more,

834
00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:54.002
much more adventuresome stuff.

835
00:42:54.002 --> 00:42:55.002
And I think,

836
00:42:56.238 --> 00:42:59.155
I think especially people of color,

837
00:43:00.544 --> 00:43:03.127
their tradition of that kind of

838
00:43:04.962 --> 00:43:06.835
of worship is so strong.

839
00:43:06.835 --> 00:43:08.085
<v Woman>Yeah.</v>

840
00:43:09.242 --> 00:43:12.906
<v Randy>But they're not gonna really be attracted</v>

841
00:43:12.906 --> 00:43:14.936
to something that seems to be,

842
00:43:14.936 --> 00:43:18.504
well, not only are we not moving our way,

843
00:43:18.504 --> 00:43:19.927
you're moving another way.

844
00:43:19.927 --> 00:43:21.515
Now, I mean,

845
00:43:21.515 --> 00:43:22.898
I'm not sure that makes sense,

846
00:43:22.898 --> 00:43:24.915
because I'm just kind of thinking it through

847
00:43:24.915 --> 00:43:26.585
at this time.

848
00:43:26.585 --> 00:43:27.891
<v Woman>Could you say a little bit more, yeah,</v>

849
00:43:27.891 --> 00:43:29.850
what details would make it move the other direction?

850
00:43:29.850 --> 00:43:31.148
You said adventuresome.

851
00:43:31.148 --> 00:43:33.428
<v Randy>Well, milk and honey, for some.</v>

852
00:43:33.428 --> 00:43:36.724
I mean, I don't think most African-American communities

853
00:43:36.724 --> 00:43:41.443
would say, that doesn't fit with our tradition at all.

854
00:43:41.443 --> 00:43:44.372
And, it didn't fit with mainline, either, but

855
00:43:44.372 --> 00:43:47.672
the mainline was more, because middle class, okay,

856
00:43:47.672 --> 00:43:49.005
we can try this.

857
00:43:50.896 --> 00:43:54.476
So, I haven't thought this through much.

858
00:43:54.476 --> 00:43:56.428
<v Woman>Sure.</v>

859
00:43:56.428 --> 00:43:58.176
<v Randy>That seems to be,</v>

860
00:43:58.176 --> 00:44:00.657
but as I say, I think the main issue is

861
00:44:00.657 --> 00:44:04.740
what every church-based, traditional organization

862
00:44:06.362 --> 00:44:10.107
the problem it has in trying to bridge

863
00:44:10.107 --> 00:44:13.851
both ethnic differences and in some sense, class differences

864
00:44:13.851 --> 00:44:16.601
and we were clearly middle class.

865
00:44:17.478 --> 00:44:20.082
And that's who, basically, attended.

866
00:44:20.082 --> 00:44:24.192
What we found, though, was that the middle class,

867
00:44:24.192 --> 00:44:25.025
white,

868
00:44:29.442 --> 00:44:31.683
spiritual people,

869
00:44:31.683 --> 00:44:33.937
they had no outlet for their stuff, either.

870
00:44:33.937 --> 00:44:36.499
And they had no way to find support,

871
00:44:36.499 --> 00:44:39.623
especially if they were serving congregations

872
00:44:39.623 --> 00:44:41.540
in smaller communities.

873
00:44:42.680 --> 00:44:45.896
So for them, it became a lifeline.

874
00:44:45.896 --> 00:44:48.989
And once that kinda got developed, it seems to me,

875
00:44:48.989 --> 00:44:52.322
that's the direction it continued to go.

876
00:44:53.916 --> 00:44:58.151
So, I mean, Church Women United was a part of that,

877
00:44:58.151 --> 00:44:59.576
the impetus for this,

878
00:44:59.576 --> 00:45:04.258
and that's primarily a white group, a middle-class group.

879
00:45:04.258 --> 00:45:06.622
So, that's the way it stayed.

880
00:45:06.622 --> 00:45:09.149
<v Woman>Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, yeah.</v>

881
00:45:09.149 --> 00:45:11.715
You may have already answered this question.

882
00:45:11.715 --> 00:45:15.986
I'll give you a minute to have your drink there.

883
00:45:15.986 --> 00:45:17.688
But, what aspects of Re-Imagining

884
00:45:17.688 --> 00:45:20.855
were most significant to you, and why?

885
00:45:23.962 --> 00:45:27.945
<v Randy>Well, I, the theology, itself, was.</v>

886
00:45:27.945 --> 00:45:30.028
Much of my academic work,

887
00:45:31.522 --> 00:45:35.721
and that experiential work was in liberation theology.

888
00:45:35.721 --> 00:45:37.468
I would take students to Mexico.

889
00:45:37.468 --> 00:45:39.213
I did that about 16 times.

890
00:45:39.213 --> 00:45:40.313
<v Woman>Wow.</v>

891
00:45:40.313 --> 00:45:42.266
<v Randy>And part of that was,</v>

892
00:45:42.266 --> 00:45:44.304
they'd get a sense of what's going on

893
00:45:44.304 --> 00:45:48.615
in the liberation community, particularly,

894
00:45:48.615 --> 00:45:50.977
I mean not only Roman Catholic, but,

895
00:45:50.977 --> 00:45:54.477
so I read a lot of liberation theology, so

896
00:45:56.184 --> 00:46:00.129
Re-Imagining seemed to be a liberation movement.

897
00:46:00.129 --> 00:46:03.796
And so, that resonated with what I was doing

898
00:46:06.592 --> 00:46:08.592
in my own academic work.

899
00:46:13.124 --> 00:46:14.796
So, for example, my sabbatical,

900
00:46:14.796 --> 00:46:18.379
I had a sabbatical in Cuernavaca, Mexico in

901
00:46:20.505 --> 00:46:22.088
what year was that?

902
00:46:23.271 --> 00:46:24.407
'89, '90.

903
00:46:24.407 --> 00:46:26.034
<v ->Huh.</v>
<v ->Yeah.</v>

904
00:46:26.034 --> 00:46:27.707
And, what I did there was write a manual

905
00:46:27.707 --> 00:46:29.455
on liberation theology.

906
00:46:29.455 --> 00:46:31.496
You know, so it fit very much into that.

907
00:46:31.496 --> 00:46:33.079
<v Woman>Yes, yes.</v>

908
00:46:34.092 --> 00:46:35.476
<v Randy>So that was one of the things</v>

909
00:46:35.476 --> 00:46:38.476
that very clearly resonated with me.

910
00:46:40.163 --> 00:46:41.830
I think the sense of

911
00:46:42.813 --> 00:46:45.480
creativity was important for me.

912
00:46:49.892 --> 00:46:54.572
But the main attraction was the theology, itself,

913
00:46:54.572 --> 00:46:57.583
which seemed to be another version

914
00:46:57.583 --> 00:47:00.552
of what I was very interested in.

915
00:47:00.552 --> 00:47:01.802
<v Woman>Yeah.</v>

916
00:47:02.788 --> 00:47:03.621
Very good.

917
00:47:04.942 --> 00:47:07.549
How, or did your involvement in Re-Imagining change

918
00:47:07.549 --> 00:47:11.716
your perspective on feminist theology and/or the church?

919
00:47:18.420 --> 00:47:20.425
<v Randy>I don't know that I would say it changed</v>

920
00:47:20.425 --> 00:47:21.851
my perspective on theology.

921
00:47:21.851 --> 00:47:24.133
It probably deepened it.

922
00:47:24.133 --> 00:47:28.185
I have not, for example, done much with womenist theology,

923
00:47:28.185 --> 00:47:31.160
which, as I think about it, that would be

924
00:47:31.160 --> 00:47:34.048
kind of a further elaboration of this,

925
00:47:34.048 --> 00:47:37.131
and I just haven't done much of that.

926
00:47:38.525 --> 00:47:42.354
It kind of reinforced, confirmed, kind of,

927
00:47:42.354 --> 00:47:44.271
my own sense of things.

928
00:47:46.222 --> 00:47:49.722
But the truth, itself, I think it was both

929
00:47:53.127 --> 00:47:56.294
I wouldn't say disappointed, but I was

930
00:47:58.453 --> 00:48:00.077
I would have preferred that the church

931
00:48:00.077 --> 00:48:01.327
not be quite so

932
00:48:03.503 --> 00:48:07.003
quick to say no, no, no, we can't do this.

933
00:48:07.974 --> 00:48:09.966
But much more willing to explore.

934
00:48:09.966 --> 00:48:13.064
But that's why all of us were naive.

935
00:48:13.064 --> 00:48:16.500
I mean we thought, okay, we're offering here a gift,

936
00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:18.332
and why don't you take it?

937
00:48:18.332 --> 00:48:21.227
Well, it's too threatening.

938
00:48:21.227 --> 00:48:23.664
<v Woman>Why is it threatening?</v>

939
00:48:23.664 --> 00:48:25.737
<v Randy>Well, because I think it does say</v>

940
00:48:25.737 --> 00:48:28.963
you can look at the bible in different ways.

941
00:48:28.963 --> 00:48:32.222
There's not just one way to talk about

942
00:48:32.222 --> 00:48:34.305
major theological issues.

943
00:48:35.407 --> 00:48:39.463
There's an openness here and that would suggest

944
00:48:39.463 --> 00:48:42.523
there's maybe not one right answer, either.

945
00:48:42.523 --> 00:48:46.791
And if you need to have something solid and secure,

946
00:48:46.791 --> 00:48:50.164
we're not it, 'cause all we want to do is open things up.

947
00:48:50.164 --> 00:48:52.530
We don't want to close things down.

948
00:48:52.530 --> 00:48:54.641
So, I mean, I think that was, and that's, I think

949
00:48:54.641 --> 00:48:57.955
what really threatened lay people was this sense of,

950
00:48:57.955 --> 00:49:00.117
you mean, all I believed all these years,

951
00:49:00.117 --> 00:49:02.353
maybe isn't quite what I believe?

952
00:49:02.353 --> 00:49:03.938
Well, what does that mean?

953
00:49:03.938 --> 00:49:06.561
And how do I deal with that?

954
00:49:06.561 --> 00:49:10.374
And I think there's still some issues

955
00:49:10.374 --> 00:49:12.295
with the liturgies of the church

956
00:49:12.295 --> 00:49:16.373
because they claim to be still very traditional.

957
00:49:16.373 --> 00:49:20.206
Even some of these nominations are very active

958
00:49:21.342 --> 00:49:24.009
in social justice and ethics and

959
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:26.382
that kind of thing.

960
00:49:26.382 --> 00:49:29.121
The liturgies, no, (mumbles)

961
00:49:29.121 --> 00:49:32.038
God the father and Lord have mercy.

962
00:49:36.381 --> 00:49:37.687
I mean, I understand why that is,

963
00:49:37.687 --> 00:49:39.203
because when you've got a congregation

964
00:49:39.203 --> 00:49:41.241
you've got the whole gamut and you cannot be

965
00:49:41.241 --> 00:49:45.560
so far ahead that those who are more traditional

966
00:49:45.560 --> 00:49:48.393
in their faith can't find a place.

967
00:49:49.666 --> 00:49:50.499
But,

968
00:49:53.471 --> 00:49:54.993
I think,

969
00:49:54.993 --> 00:49:57.826
that's why in some sense, it was a

970
00:49:58.714 --> 00:50:00.547
re-imagining movement.

971
00:50:03.236 --> 00:50:04.582
We'll offer this.

972
00:50:04.582 --> 00:50:06.864
If you can work with it, do it.

973
00:50:06.864 --> 00:50:07.697
If not,

974
00:50:09.180 --> 00:50:11.792
we're gonna still do it.

975
00:50:11.792 --> 00:50:13.012
<v Woman>Yeah, yeah.</v>

976
00:50:13.012 --> 00:50:16.350
Did you think that, why don't you take a sip.

977
00:50:16.350 --> 00:50:18.588
Did you think that the churches

978
00:50:18.588 --> 00:50:23.308
would be further along in inclusive language in 2016?

979
00:50:23.308 --> 00:50:24.564
Or, are you not surprised?

980
00:50:24.564 --> 00:50:27.765
<v ->You mean today?</v>
<v ->Today, yeah.</v>

981
00:50:27.765 --> 00:50:30.377
<v Randy>Well, I think we're there,</v>

982
00:50:30.377 --> 00:50:32.244
when you talk about academic stuff.

983
00:50:32.244 --> 00:50:35.742
We're not there when you talk about

984
00:50:35.742 --> 00:50:37.159
liturgical stuff.

985
00:50:38.910 --> 00:50:39.743
Some are.

986
00:50:40.986 --> 00:50:43.383
But it's more individual congregations.

987
00:50:43.383 --> 00:50:45.800
It's not whole denominations.

988
00:50:47.656 --> 00:50:49.855
And in some sense, some of the liturgy

989
00:50:49.855 --> 00:50:51.645
has gone out of that.

990
00:50:51.645 --> 00:50:54.371
It's kind of like, oh that's,

991
00:50:54.371 --> 00:50:57.938
we've got other things to deal with, rather than that.

992
00:50:57.938 --> 00:51:00.771
Which, in some sense, that's true.

993
00:51:03.720 --> 00:51:05.220
I mean, you've got

994
00:51:06.949 --> 00:51:09.037
lot of the justice issues now.

995
00:51:09.037 --> 00:51:11.967
I'm not gonna fight over God the mother or daughter

996
00:51:11.967 --> 00:51:12.979
or father.

997
00:51:12.979 --> 00:51:15.261
It seems, okay, yeah, that's okay,

998
00:51:15.261 --> 00:51:17.421
but that's not really what the issues are.

999
00:51:17.421 --> 00:51:19.471
But, on the other hand, you could make a case

1000
00:51:19.471 --> 00:51:21.831
that if we could get that straight

1001
00:51:21.831 --> 00:51:23.841
the rest of it might actually get easier.

1002
00:51:23.841 --> 00:51:26.591
But, it's hard to make that case.

1003
00:51:28.604 --> 00:51:29.823
<v Woman>I want to pick up on one other word.</v>

1004
00:51:29.823 --> 00:51:31.979
You said Re-Imagining movement,

1005
00:51:31.979 --> 00:51:34.094
you emphasized movement.

1006
00:51:34.094 --> 00:51:37.027
Why movement? What do you see?

1007
00:51:37.027 --> 00:51:38.044
<v Randy>Well, because I think</v>

1008
00:51:38.044 --> 00:51:40.929
this was not just individuals.

1009
00:51:40.929 --> 00:51:43.239
I mean, there are individual theologians

1010
00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:47.322
but together they represented and still represent

1011
00:51:48.973 --> 00:51:51.056
a kind of larger reality.

1012
00:51:55.649 --> 00:51:59.997
I mean, that's what it became for at least 10 years

1013
00:51:59.997 --> 00:52:00.830
and then

1014
00:52:02.680 --> 00:52:04.878
as with other movements,

1015
00:52:04.878 --> 00:52:09.625
when it has done its work, then it needs to quit.

1016
00:52:09.625 --> 00:52:12.458
And I think we have done our work.

1017
00:52:13.701 --> 00:52:15.126
It would have been,

1018
00:52:15.126 --> 00:52:18.134
we could have continued, but I think that

1019
00:52:18.134 --> 00:52:21.301
some of the energy had gone out of it.

1020
00:52:22.238 --> 00:52:24.961
And, we were not saying, okay,

1021
00:52:24.961 --> 00:52:26.794
if we quit, we failed.

1022
00:52:28.870 --> 00:52:29.852
It's time to quit.

1023
00:52:29.852 --> 00:52:31.602
<v Woman>Yeah, yeah.</v>

1024
00:52:31.602 --> 00:52:33.357
<v Randy>So, for me the movement, then, simply,</v>

1025
00:52:33.357 --> 00:52:36.940
it's more than just one or two theologians.

1026
00:52:38.070 --> 00:52:41.769
There is a sense of, this is something that's happening

1027
00:52:41.769 --> 00:52:43.436
in the church.

1028
00:52:43.436 --> 00:52:46.936
But actually it's happening outside the church

1029
00:52:46.936 --> 00:52:47.769
as much.

1030
00:52:47.769 --> 00:52:50.686
(machine whirring)

1031
00:53:01.475 --> 00:53:03.443
So, in some ways, it was a way

1032
00:53:03.443 --> 00:53:06.193
of bridging the church and world.

1033
00:53:08.477 --> 00:53:12.385
Which, as I said, when my background is ethics

1034
00:53:12.385 --> 00:53:15.135
and society, and so for me it was

1035
00:53:16.315 --> 00:53:17.648
a way to confirm

1036
00:53:19.285 --> 00:53:21.552
professionally what I

1037
00:53:21.552 --> 00:53:25.295
actually studied and trained to do.

1038
00:53:25.295 --> 00:53:26.192
<v Woman>Could you say just a,</v>

1039
00:53:26.192 --> 00:53:27.659
give an example of how you saw it

1040
00:53:27.659 --> 00:53:29.368
or examples of how you saw it bridging the church

1041
00:53:29.368 --> 00:53:30.201
and the world?

1042
00:53:30.201 --> 00:53:31.034
How is it doing that?

1043
00:53:31.034 --> 00:53:33.283
<v Randy>Well, I think some of those who attended,</v>

1044
00:53:33.283 --> 00:53:34.464
for example, the conferences

1045
00:53:34.464 --> 00:53:37.885
had pretty much given up on the church.

1046
00:53:37.885 --> 00:53:40.322
And yet, here's something that is at least

1047
00:53:40.322 --> 00:53:43.024
under some auspices of the church,

1048
00:53:43.024 --> 00:53:45.338
and they're willing to do this and so maybe

1049
00:53:45.338 --> 00:53:48.554
we don't have to quite quit yet.

1050
00:53:48.554 --> 00:53:52.048
So, I don't know how many that was the case,

1051
00:53:52.048 --> 00:53:54.653
but I know there were some for whom, okay,

1052
00:53:54.653 --> 00:53:56.820
we'll give it a try again.

1053
00:53:58.975 --> 00:54:00.802
And whether they've stayed with it,

1054
00:54:00.802 --> 00:54:03.485
I don't know what's happened since.

1055
00:54:03.485 --> 00:54:06.987
But I do think that was one of the goals,

1056
00:54:06.987 --> 00:54:08.774
well, I don't know if it was one of the goals.

1057
00:54:08.774 --> 00:54:11.740
It became one of the results

1058
00:54:11.740 --> 00:54:15.463
was that the appeal was not just to tried and true

1059
00:54:15.463 --> 00:54:17.135
church members, it was to those who wanted

1060
00:54:17.135 --> 00:54:19.433
(mumbles) the church.

1061
00:54:19.433 --> 00:54:20.655
We gave them a place to say,

1062
00:54:20.655 --> 00:54:23.538
well maybe there is something down there.

1063
00:54:23.538 --> 00:54:27.647
So, that's basically what I mean is that

1064
00:54:27.647 --> 00:54:30.397
sense of trying to help those who

1065
00:54:31.539 --> 00:54:34.054
were having trouble with the church.

1066
00:54:34.054 --> 00:54:37.515
Say, well it's not a lost cause totally.

1067
00:54:37.515 --> 00:54:39.920
<v Woman>Right, yeah, yeah.</v>

1068
00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:43.699
In the time we have left, and I so appreciate this,

1069
00:54:43.699 --> 00:54:45.698
we want to look a little bit toward the future.

1070
00:54:45.698 --> 00:54:48.705
And so, what do you think is the greatest legacy

1071
00:54:48.705 --> 00:54:51.205
of the Re-Imagining Community?

1072
00:54:55.659 --> 00:54:58.845
<v Randy>Well, I suspect the legacy is in</v>

1073
00:54:58.845 --> 00:55:02.182
those individuals who participated in it,

1074
00:55:02.182 --> 00:55:03.976
and whether there's much for them

1075
00:55:03.976 --> 00:55:08.143
either in their faith life or their ministry life.

1076
00:55:11.131 --> 00:55:15.035
There are a couple of written documents,

1077
00:55:15.035 --> 00:55:17.118
so there is some of that.

1078
00:55:21.050 --> 00:55:23.858
But I think probably they focus more in terms of

1079
00:55:23.858 --> 00:55:27.112
what needs to happen in the lives of individuals

1080
00:55:27.112 --> 00:55:28.172
and then, to some extent,

1081
00:55:28.172 --> 00:55:31.255
what happened to parts of the church.

1082
00:55:32.323 --> 00:55:36.919
<v Woman>What do you think happened to parts of the church?</v>

1083
00:55:36.919 --> 00:55:39.836
<v Randy>Well, some, I think, were</v>

1084
00:55:44.768 --> 00:55:46.935
some did become more open.

1085
00:55:48.587 --> 00:55:49.587
Some allowed

1086
00:55:58.477 --> 00:56:02.134
it did give greater space to some,

1087
00:56:02.134 --> 00:56:05.106
especially women, who I think

1088
00:56:05.106 --> 00:56:08.274
might not have continued in the church

1089
00:56:08.274 --> 00:56:11.121
if they had not had a sense of, okay,

1090
00:56:11.121 --> 00:56:15.038
now I can try some stuff and still be accepted,

1091
00:56:16.371 --> 00:56:20.850
or, I can be true to my own sense of who I am

1092
00:56:20.850 --> 00:56:23.100
and still be in the church.

1093
00:56:24.348 --> 00:56:25.935
I suppose,

1094
00:56:25.935 --> 00:56:28.379
and I don't know the extent to which this is the case,

1095
00:56:28.379 --> 00:56:31.796
but part of the legacy is a sense of what

1096
00:56:33.264 --> 00:56:36.347
what can happen when committed people

1097
00:56:37.395 --> 00:56:40.145
decide it's time to do something.

1098
00:56:42.169 --> 00:56:44.429
It doesn't mean it's gonna change the world.

1099
00:56:44.429 --> 00:56:46.829
It doesn't mean it's gonna go on forever.

1100
00:56:46.829 --> 00:56:48.739
But it's like kind of a, okay,

1101
00:56:48.739 --> 00:56:52.479
grassroots movements still have their place

1102
00:56:52.479 --> 00:56:53.562
and can still

1103
00:56:56.344 --> 00:56:59.560
can still create a bit of excitement

1104
00:56:59.560 --> 00:57:03.393
and if individuals can connect to that, great.

1105
00:57:05.024 --> 00:57:06.705
But, we didn't go into it saying,

1106
00:57:06.705 --> 00:57:08.496
we want this to be our legacy.

1107
00:57:08.496 --> 00:57:11.219
We went into it saying, this is what we need to do

1108
00:57:11.219 --> 00:57:13.219
and then, let it happen.

1109
00:57:14.699 --> 00:57:16.449
<v Woman>Yeah, yeah.</v>

1110
00:57:17.589 --> 00:57:19.660
Couple more quick questions.

1111
00:57:19.660 --> 00:57:22.493
What does re-imagining mean today?

1112
00:57:23.850 --> 00:57:26.517
<v Randy>Well, for me it means,</v>

1113
00:57:28.038 --> 00:57:29.625
every now and then I see someone say,

1114
00:57:29.625 --> 00:57:33.453
well we need to re-imagine this, and they don't have a clue

1115
00:57:33.453 --> 00:57:36.011
that they're picking up on that movement

1116
00:57:36.011 --> 00:57:38.863
because as far as they (mumbles)

1117
00:57:38.863 --> 00:57:41.677
But I see it as a way of saying, yeah,

1118
00:57:41.677 --> 00:57:45.176
there is always a need for a re-imagining

1119
00:57:45.176 --> 00:57:48.515
what we're about, what we believe, what we think,

1120
00:57:48.515 --> 00:57:50.348
and how do we do that?

1121
00:57:53.356 --> 00:57:56.273
It has that kind of personal sense.

1122
00:57:58.685 --> 00:58:00.608
And I do think that,

1123
00:58:00.608 --> 00:58:05.172
for those who are able and willing to kinda take a look

1124
00:58:05.172 --> 00:58:09.339
it does refer to this really quite extraordinary event

1125
00:58:12.082 --> 00:58:16.270
in which, primarily, women got together and said,

1126
00:58:16.270 --> 00:58:19.115
we're not comfortable with how the tradition

1127
00:58:19.115 --> 00:58:23.017
has always described things, and we think we can,

1128
00:58:23.017 --> 00:58:26.017
there can be other ways of doing it.

1129
00:58:27.745 --> 00:58:30.472
So, in some sense what you're doing, probably,

1130
00:58:30.472 --> 00:58:32.093
(mumbles)

1131
00:58:32.093 --> 00:58:34.007
there's something here, let's take a look at it.

1132
00:58:34.007 --> 00:58:35.514
And it may not,

1133
00:58:35.514 --> 00:58:37.467
I mean, it's not current right now,

1134
00:58:37.467 --> 00:58:41.168
but you can look at it and say, okay, what did they do

1135
00:58:41.168 --> 00:58:44.418
that was able to get some stuff moving?

1136
00:58:49.763 --> 00:58:53.834
But for me, the re-imagining will always trigger,

1137
00:58:53.834 --> 00:58:56.676
whenever that word is used, whether it's in relation

1138
00:58:56.676 --> 00:58:59.681
to theology or anything else, it'll always trigger,

1139
00:58:59.681 --> 00:59:02.348
ah-ha, there was a movement once

1140
00:59:03.265 --> 00:59:06.351
that was really quite exciting and did some good stuff.

1141
00:59:06.351 --> 00:59:08.793
<v Woman>Yeah, yeah.</v>

1142
00:59:08.793 --> 00:59:11.764
And my last question, which is very specific.

1143
00:59:11.764 --> 00:59:15.847
The community is creating a Re-Imagining website,

1144
00:59:16.769 --> 00:59:19.539
and I wonder if you had any thoughts about

1145
00:59:19.539 --> 00:59:22.311
what would be helpful to include in it,

1146
00:59:22.311 --> 00:59:24.425
who would benefit from it,

1147
00:59:24.425 --> 00:59:26.745
how we could get the word out, any of those issues,

1148
00:59:26.745 --> 00:59:28.078
any ideas on it?

1149
00:59:30.212 --> 00:59:34.603
<v Randy>Well, to be very honest, I have been</v>

1150
00:59:34.603 --> 00:59:38.582
skeptical about trying to resurrect that.

1151
00:59:38.582 --> 00:59:41.146
<v Woman>Mm-hmm, say some more about that, yes.</v>

1152
00:59:41.146 --> 00:59:45.313
<v Randy>Well, my own sense is that we did our thing,</v>

1153
00:59:46.353 --> 00:59:48.686
we did what we wanted to do,

1154
00:59:50.344 --> 00:59:54.369
that particular dimension is done, let's let it rest.

1155
00:59:54.369 --> 00:59:55.619
<v Woman>Yeah.</v>

1156
00:59:57.629 --> 00:59:59.622
<v Randy>I don't have a good sense of</v>

1157
00:59:59.622 --> 01:00:02.470
what could be done because I,

1158
01:00:02.470 --> 01:00:06.532
especially if it's, those who are part of the original

1159
01:00:06.532 --> 01:00:08.690
Re-Imagining movement, most of them aren't gonna be

1160
01:00:08.690 --> 01:00:10.766
around much longer.

1161
01:00:10.766 --> 01:00:14.016
And so, unless the attempt is to appeal

1162
01:00:15.612 --> 01:00:17.779
to the younger generation,

1163
01:00:19.683 --> 01:00:22.294
I don't have a sense of what,

1164
01:00:22.294 --> 01:00:24.568
why that would be a good thing to do.

1165
01:00:24.568 --> 01:00:26.117
<v Woman>Yeah, fair enough.</v>

1166
01:00:26.117 --> 01:00:26.950
<v Randy>But that's a personal opinion.</v>

1167
01:00:26.950 --> 01:00:28.680
<v Woman>No, well that's good, and it's good to hear that.</v>

1168
01:00:28.680 --> 01:00:29.801
I think that's very good.

1169
01:00:29.801 --> 01:00:32.569
We need to hear all those voices, that's good.

1170
01:00:32.569 --> 01:00:35.008
Last thing is, is there anything that we haven't

1171
01:00:35.008 --> 01:00:37.695
talked about that you would want to say?

1172
01:00:37.695 --> 01:00:41.445
Something we've left out of the conversation?

1173
01:00:47.254 --> 01:00:49.170
<v Randy>I think, not really.</v>

1174
01:00:49.170 --> 01:00:51.670
I suppose, personally, for me,

1175
01:00:52.799 --> 01:00:56.301
what was a benefit was the fact that

1176
01:00:56.301 --> 01:00:59.432
I was out of a Lutheran context,

1177
01:00:59.432 --> 01:01:01.911
meaning the ecumenical context.

1178
01:01:01.911 --> 01:01:05.028
So, for example, Sally Martin who,

1179
01:01:05.028 --> 01:01:08.549
a musician I would never have come in contact with her

1180
01:01:08.549 --> 01:01:10.216
except through this,

1181
01:01:11.148 --> 01:01:12.654
and some of the other women

1182
01:01:12.654 --> 01:01:16.229
who represented other denominations

1183
01:01:16.229 --> 01:01:18.262
and I think that was one of the geniuses of it

1184
01:01:18.262 --> 01:01:20.661
was that it could span denominational lines,

1185
01:01:20.661 --> 01:01:24.946
not just Protestant, but especially Roman Catholic,

1186
01:01:24.946 --> 01:01:26.363
Protestant lines.

1187
01:01:29.504 --> 01:01:32.721
So, I mean, that was a diversity also

1188
01:01:32.721 --> 01:01:37.233
that was a positive diversity, especially for me.

1189
01:01:37.233 --> 01:01:39.472
But it did bring together

1190
01:01:39.472 --> 01:01:43.639
the Catholic nuns, sisters, Protestant theologians,

1191
01:01:44.887 --> 01:01:48.970
Protestant pastors, lay people from all over, so,

1192
01:01:50.464 --> 01:01:52.297
that ability to appeal

1193
01:01:54.219 --> 01:01:55.636
was a good thing.

1194
01:01:57.757 --> 01:01:59.007
But no, I mean,

1195
01:02:03.246 --> 01:02:05.238
when Jerry and Pam and I get together,

1196
01:02:05.238 --> 01:02:08.336
we don't talk about Re-Imagining so much anymore

1197
01:02:08.336 --> 01:02:11.345
because now we all go, what's going on in your life?

1198
01:02:11.345 --> 01:02:13.012
<v Woman>I love it.</v>

1199
01:02:16.676 --> 01:02:20.326
<v Randy>I went to Joe Engenberg's funeral,</v>

1200
01:02:20.326 --> 01:02:22.849
so when those things come along,

1201
01:02:22.849 --> 01:02:25.251
there is still a tie that says, okay,

1202
01:02:25.251 --> 01:02:27.617
let's get back into that and,

1203
01:02:27.617 --> 01:02:31.870
or not get back into it, but let's remember that,

1204
01:02:31.870 --> 01:02:33.545
affirm what happened.

1205
01:02:33.545 --> 01:02:34.566
<v Woman>Yes.</v>

1206
01:02:34.566 --> 01:02:36.196
Yeah.

1207
01:02:36.196 --> 01:02:39.144
Thank you very much, Randy. I really appreciate it.