Mary Hebert: State your full name and tell me where you were born. George Wyatt: My name is George W. Wyatt Jr. I was born in Norfolk, Virginia in 1920. Mary Hebert: What did your parents do for a living? George Wyatt: Oh, let me see if I can go back that far now. My father worked for Rices. My mother worked at a laundry. Mary Hebert: What were their names? George Wyatt: His name was George W. Wyatt Senior. My mother's name was Laie B. Wyatt. We lived in a very, I'd say very Spanish neighborhood, but it was the kind of neighborhood that I think we ought to have today. Everybody knew everybody. Everybody was friendly. And if we did wrong, we would get spanked by the neighbor. And it spanked by our parents when they came and they came home. Mary Hebert: What neighborhood was it, did it have a name? George Wyatt: No, it was just— Mary Hebert: What section of Norfolk was it in? George Wyatt: It was in the, I would say downtown section now. We lived on Nicholson Street at 332. That was the address, Nicholson Street. And that's more or less like downtown now. It was downtown, well, it wasn't not called downtown Norfolk. Jefferson Street ran through there. Kent Street ran through there. Where the cemetery is on Princess Ann Road down, that ran by there just like it does now, it's still there. Mary Hebert: I'm familiar with that area. George Wyatt: They, of course, when we moved out from there and moved to Uden Street, I guess I was about 10 or 12 years old, we moved to Uden Street and we lived there until, well, I got grown, I'll say that. Mary Hebert: Did your parents own their own homes or were they— George Wyatt: No, they were renting or they had, I doubt if they could have owned a home making six, $7 a week. And that was basically their salary. There was seven of us. There were three girls and four boys. And of course my youngest brother, he's dead now. We went to school at, well, I went to school at SC Armstrong. From there I went to Booker T. Mary Hebert: Did you graduate from high school? George Wyatt: I did not graduate from high school. Mary Hebert: Did you have to go to work to help the family out? George Wyatt: Well, basically, at that time it was a struggle. And I don't guess I was old enough to, well, I really didn't quit school until I got in there. What? 11th grade, I think. Because when I really stopped school. Mary Hebert: And you went to work? George Wyatt: I went to work, yes. As much of work as there was. Mary Hebert: This was during the depression? George Wyatt: Well, during the depression, no, the depression was what, '24? Mary Hebert: '29 to '30. George Wyatt: 29. Mary Hebert: To 40s, till about World War II. George Wyatt: Roosevelt was elected in— Mary Hebert: '32. George Wyatt: Yeah. Well, I'm trying to think back now. I'm trying to think back. I remember when Roosevelt was elected and he started the WPA. And of course I was still in school then. And my father and mother struggled through the WPA and my father was still working as a what? Janitor, clerk or something at a department store, right at the department store. And my mother was still working at Fairfax Laundry. And we used to have to get up mornings before going to school and take the clothes to the laundry for her to wash them. And then we'd bring them back that she might press them and so we'd have— Mary Hebert: Your clothes, the family's clothes? George Wyatt: The family's clothes, yes. I worked at a grocery store on the corner. I think it was George, was O'Brien, I don't remember the man's first name. No, I think it was George O'Brien, but I'm not sure. Mary Hebert: A White man? George Wyatt: Huh? Mary Hebert: A White man? George Wyatt: He was White. Yeah, he was White. And I worked there delivering groceries and whatever else I could do. Mary Hebert: How were you treated when you're going through these White neighborhoods delivering groceries? George Wyatt: But I didn't have to go through White neighborhoods. Mary Hebert: Okay. You delivering to Black neighborhoods? George Wyatt: It was all in Black neighborhoods. I did not have to go through White neighborhoods until I got, well, I guess I was about 16, 17 years old. I was working at another grocery store and there we delivered groceries and you had to go to the back door. They didn't allow you to come to their front door at all. You delivered groceries and you went to the back door. Mary Hebert: How were you treated by the kids in the neighborhood? Did they call you names and things like that? The White children in the neighborhood? George Wyatt: No. No. I personally never came in contact with that. We were not, well, I guess I was so much in the Black neighborhood. I was more in the Black neighborhood than in a White neighborhood. So I never came in contact with Whites calling us anything, calling me anything, I'll say it that way. And I never had problems with them bothering me because I was never in that neighborhood that much. Mary Hebert: Except to do your job. George Wyatt: That's all. Mary Hebert: When you were going to school, did you have to walk to school? George Wyatt: Yes. Mary Hebert: How far a walk? George Wyatt: Well, let me say this. When I was going to school with me living uptown, there were kids who lived in Lamberts Point. There were kids that lived in Berkeley. They had to walk by the White schools to get to the one Black school that they had for Negroes. And that was Booker T Washington High School. And it's at the school is setting now where the old school was. Mary Hebert: It's just out? George Wyatt: Huh? Mary Hebert: Out this way? Off Park? George Wyatt: Yeah, it was there then. It was not Park Avenue then, it was Calvert Street and I guess Maltby Avenue. And those streets surrounded the school. And that was in a predominant Black neighborhood. I played a little football for Booker T at the time that they had had a football team. I played some football with them. Mary Hebert: The games were in the afternoon? George Wyatt: The games were all in the afternoon. It was a big thing for Booker T and St. Joseph's. It was called St. Joseph's Standards. Well, what is St. Mary's now. St. Joseph's and Booker T played, they were all shoe stores on Church Street. They could close their stores that day for that game because that was a, well, it wasn't a rough and rowdy game, but it was a little competition. The competition was real. Mary Hebert: So there's a big rivalry between the two schools? George Wyatt: Two schools, yes. And Booker T did not have, well, they didn't have the enrollment that Booker T had. And they would go out and get other boys to come and play for them that day. They had other players who would come in and play for them. But it was, and their coach [indistinct 00:10:20] then was Biggie White. Mary Hebert: Would you travel to football games to other places or did you all stay mostly within the Norfolk area? George Wyatt: We stayed more or less than within the Norfolk area. And the one or two times we traveled or they had buses for us to travel by. And we would go to Addison, played Addison High in Roanoke. We went to Portsmouth and played Markham. And of course then you had to go, the ferry was running and we had to cross over on the ferry. And you didn't get, well, it was a thing that if you went over at the Portsmouth and won the football game, you'd had to run back to catch that ferry to be sure you got that ferry to get back to Norfolk. Mary Hebert: You would've been in trouble if you wouldn't. George Wyatt: And they were days that we wished that the Whites and Blacks could have had competition between each other. But that never matured until the later years. Mary Hebert: Did you have to try out for the team or did anyone who wanted to play just join up? George Wyatt: No, no. We had that but we had tryouts. And you had tryouts and it was pretty rough for the tryouts. There was a lot of competition there. And they knew that they were, we figured we were the best and they wanted to keep that macho feeling going. Mary Hebert: You mentioned that they closed the stores on Church Street. Was there a fear that there'd be riots or looting? George Wyatt: No, they closed just in honor of those games. Every, and most of the stores on Cherry Street, they were operated by the Jewish race and from, let me see, El Snyder. The El Snyder were just the one right there. Think El Snyder did not close. El Snyders was more way downtown. They were down by Main Street and El Snyders and [indistinct 00:12:59]. I think they were the two, anyhow, from, I would say from Market Street on up or back. They would close the stores. They'd have, this is the day we closed in honor of this, of these two teams playing. Mary Hebert: Did the parents go to the game too? Did a lot of people from the community? George Wyatt: Oh yes, indeed. Parents were stark supporters of the boys playing football. Mary Hebert: Did you have bleachers and things that they had at football stadiums for high school kids [indistinct 00:13:35] George Wyatt: Yes. We played, well, High Rock Park. High Rock Park was on Church Street where the railroad track is, where that Veco or where the light place, telephone or something there that. But that's where the High Rock Park was. Mary Hebert: And that's where you played? George Wyatt: That's where we played. Mary Hebert: So it wasn't on the school grounds? George Wyatt: No, no, no. It wasn't on the school grounds. Mary Hebert: Did you have any teachers that were very influential, important to you? George Wyatt: I had a principal and his name was MJ Green. He was very influential with me and with my oldest sister. He was one of those kind of principals that was close to the family. Because every Thursday, I could assure you that my father would come to the school and have a conversation with this principal every Thursday. He would take his lunch hour and come to the school and they would sit in the office and have a conversation. It isn't like it is now. You can't see the principal, you got to go through a whole regimen of people to get to the principal. Mary Hebert: But they had this standing meeting every week? George Wyatt: Every Thursday, and the principal, Mr. Green knew he was coming and my father would be there. Mary Hebert: Was education important to your father? George Wyatt: Very important, yes. Education was very important to my father. Mary Hebert: And your mother also on [indistinct 00:15:50]. George Wyatt: Yes. Mary Hebert: You just mentioned that your father went to the school. George Wyatt: Well, my father went, but because my mother couldn't go. But my father was the man of the house. He did the things that a father should do. Mary Hebert: He made the decisions. George Wyatt: Well, it was between him and my mother. I guess they collaborated and made the decisions together. Mary Hebert: Was he responsible for discipline? George Wyatt: Yes he was. He wasn't, well, [indistinct 00:16:27] tell you, but you know it wasn't a thing. If you punish a child then, you'd had to go to jail and all this kind of stuff. You didn't have bothered with that. But they disciplined you on the way they should be disciplined. Mary Hebert: Did some of your younger brothers and sisters get to go further in school than you did? George Wyatt: My sister graduated from Booker T. My oldest sister. My youngest sister, she also graduated and she went to college. My brothers went in, my brother next to me, he went in the CC Camp. Mary Hebert: Okay, so where'd he go? George Wyatt: He went CC Camp. Mary Hebert: Oh, okay. George Wyatt: That's where he matriculated. Got the education that he got. Mary Hebert: And he'd send money home? George Wyatt: And send it down. And then once they send it in the hole, then that's where you would take it for, they would send it either to the port side or starboard side of the ship. It depending on what side it was going on. Mary Hebert: And so they hoist it onto the ships? George Wyatt: Yes. Mary Hebert: What year did you become a longshoreman? It was in the 30s? George Wyatt: No, no. Mary Hebert: The 40s? George Wyatt: Before then. Mary Hebert: Before then? George Wyatt: Yeah. I became a longshoreman and no, no, no, no. It wasn't before then, either. I became a longshoreman in 1942. Mary Hebert: And you'd already married and had children by then? George Wyatt: Yes. Mary Hebert: And you started out earning 95 cents. George Wyatt: 95 cents an hour. Mary Hebert: Were most of longshoremen Black? George Wyatt: Most of them were Black. There were a few White longshoremen. But see, when you were a longshoreman you were the scum of the earth then, nobody wanted to be a longshoreman because of the hard work. And it was hard work. Mary Hebert: All done by hand you said? George Wyatt: All done by hand, yes. We had to bring cargo to the ship. You had a few tractors that were broken down, but they would bring the ship, pull the ship cargo up under the whip. And that's what he called it, the whip. And from the whip, they lifted it into the hole. And then from the hole. And when they had these large airplane motors that I was talking about, they were hoisted on by cranes. Mary Hebert: So you put the rollers under them to get them to a certain point and then the cranes would— George Wyatt: No. Oh, well, if we weren't taking them out. Mary Hebert: Oh, when you were taking them out. Okay. I'm just thinking of loading and not unloading. So you all did both of you loading and the unloading. George Wyatt: We did the loading and the unloading. Yes. And we loaded the airplane engines going overseas. We didn't ever get into coming back. The few they got coming back were broken down or beat up. Mary Hebert: Was most of the business during World War II, Navy, Army, business, military? George Wyatt: No. There were, well, I said no because we did most of, I guess it could have been Navy contracted and Army contracted. But they were commercial steel doors who actually did the work in the port. Mary Hebert: Now what's the difference between a stevedore and a longshoreman? George Wyatt: They the same. Mary Hebert: Same thing? George Wyatt: Same thing. Well, let me see if I can clarify that for you. The stevedore was basically the company. Mary Hebert: Okay. George Wyatt: Basically the company, the longshoremen were the workers. Mary Hebert: Okay. Mary Hebert: Did you belong to a union? George Wyatt: Belonged to a union, yes. Mary Hebert: What union was that? George Wyatt: We belonged to a ILA. We belonged to the ILA. And they had had, of course, that was a union that was formed in New York. It was formed in New York and of course there are some stories behind that too. Because during that time, the Pollocks and the Greeks in New York started the union. And they had a heck of a time getting the union, actually getting it organized. When we started, when I got in the union here, it was well organized. But the pay wasn't, it was still that 95 cents an hour. Mary Hebert: Were the White workers paid more than the Black workers, did you know? George Wyatt: No. Mary Hebert: They were all paid the same? George Wyatt: The same thing. Mary Hebert: Was the union integrated? Did you have White members and Black members? George Wyatt: Well, in New York, yes. I'd say yes they were integrated. In Norfolk they were not integrated. There were two unions, two locals. I'd say locals. One was White, one was Black. But they worked together on the job. Mary Hebert: So they were both in the ILA, there were just two locals, two chapters of it here. George Wyatt: See, we were Local 1248. They were Local 970. Mary Hebert: But they worked together in negotiating wages and conditions? George Wyatt: And their wages they negotiated together. And whatever it was negotiated, there was always the committee of our peers who negotiated for us and for them. And whatever we came up with, they got the same thing. Mary Hebert: So you all worked together on those things? George Wyatt: Yes. Mary Hebert: And so the committee of peers was a group of Black and White— George Wyatt: Yes. Mary Hebert: —people working together? George Wyatt: Together. There were, I guess basically then there were 10 or 12 unions at that time in the port. I think it was eight or nine now. And I say I got to think because I'm not really sure, but I think they were eight or nine now. And when they negotiate the president and one or two persons from each local come in to make up—My grandchildren. Come in to make up the— Mary Hebert: So all these unions would get together. It was just the ILA that would get together and negotiate? George Wyatt: Just the ILA. Mary Hebert: During the course of the war, were there a lot of negotiations to increase wages and that kind of thing? George Wyatt: During the course of the war, I guess they would meet once a year and whatever they came up with at that time would be what the employers would have if they agreed to. Mary Hebert: Did you all also negotiate for employee safety and those kinds of things? George Wyatt: Well, the safety and everything was involved and was included in the negotiations. And they talked more about safety than wages. Mary Hebert: It was a dangerous job? George Wyatt: Oh, yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Mary Hebert: Oops. George Wyatt: Very dangerous. Mary Hebert: Did you have any kind of workman's compensation for people who were injured? Or is that something that the union tried to? George Wyatt: No, there is a compensation, well, the federal government, I guess, instituted the compensation. And it still stands now based on where you are working. Well, now it's a little different than back there, but where you are working, whether you working on a dock or whether you are working on a ship or whether you are working, however you're working, there's a difference in the schedule and the payments. And they pay you based on the amount of money that you made last year. Your compensation is based on how much money you make last year. And it's negotiated in that. Mary Hebert: Did you work along with White longshoreman or were you all separate? George Wyatt: No, we worked— Mary Hebert: Together. George Wyatt: —more or less together because in longshore work, they're set up in gangs. So you might have, and the Whites did not want to go on the ship, they wanted to stay on the dock. So you would've a White ship gang and you would've a Black ship gang and a White dock gang. And they would make up the number of, if you had 20 men in a gang, then whatever required that ship and whatever required on that dock, that would be one gang and they would be White. All the White would be on the dock and the Blacks would be on the ship. Because on the ships, the danger was on the ships. But I've seen fellas killed on the dock that were, and they were on the dock, and basically they were part of the ship gang because they were the slingers. I do know of two instances where [indistinct 00:27:52] was going up and something fell off and killed him [indistinct 00:28:02] on the ground. Mary Hebert: On the ground? George Wyatt: Yes. Mary Hebert: The ships were more dangerous because things could fall? George Wyatt: Well, that had something to do with it, but it was based on how it was stored on the pallet that was lifted onto the ship. It could fall off. Mary Hebert: Did your union ever go on strike? George Wyatt: Yes, indeed. Up until, was this '90, up until '89, I guess or '87. They would go on strike almost each year. That was one thing. The basic reason for the extract was wages but safety, they wanted more safety on the docks. Mary Hebert: How did that work? Did your family not have any income coming in when you went on strike? George Wyatt: Yeah, that's right. No income. It worked later, let me see. I would say back in 1942, '44, they were on strike almost every year. But there was always cargo that demanded it be shipped. Military cargo was one of it, and they did a lot of military cargo shipping during that time, which means that you could be on strike and we did stay on strike for sixty some days one time. The military cargo, with it being no restrictions on that, you were able to get home some few dollars. Mary Hebert: So that cargo you had to be shipped out [indistinct 00:30:40] George Wyatt: Had to be, yeah. In fact, the union did not require you to strike against the military. Mary Hebert: How did management and the owners respond to strikes? Did they try to bring in scabs? George Wyatt: No, no, they negotiated with the union. And they didn't because I guess at that time they figured if they tried to bring in scabs that they would have a war. Mary Hebert: There wasn't any attempt to try to break the union? George Wyatt: No. Mary Hebert: Would safety conditions improve with each strike and then would you get what you want? George Wyatt: Safety conditions were improved, yes. With each strike, safety conditions were improved. The method of handling cargo was improved. And of course, until we got to the crane, to these Pasico cranes that they have now, that's the thing of new comings but the handling cargo was improved greatly. I think the working conditions were improved. Mary Hebert: Did you all strike for shorter work days and those kinds of things? George Wyatt: No, we didn't strike for shorter work days. Basically our strikes were better conditions with more, well, they always strick for more money. Money was involved, but the conditions were the primary interests, primary strike issues. Mary Hebert: Why did you decide to become a longshoreman? George Wyatt: After I came out of high school, I mean, I stopped high school. I decided I was— Mary Hebert: Were there jobs there, I mean? George Wyatt: There were? Mary Hebert: Jobs available as a longshoreman? George Wyatt: And at that time, work was real good as longshoreman. Even the pay wasn't, they went from 95 to a dollar a quarter, but the pay wasn't that horrendous. But there was a lot of work. And you could go to work and, well, you made $150 a week. Mary Hebert: That was a lot. George Wyatt: That was a lot of money at that time. I remember the first job I went on, the first job I went on and worked. It was a night job and we went to Newport News handling canned goods. And that next morning I couldn't raise my arms this high. Mary Hebert: You couldn't raise them above your shoulder at all? George Wyatt: No, no. They would ache. I went home and took a bath and got rubbed down and I was ready to go the next night. The next night. I think I worked five nights on that job. Mary Hebert: Would you travel around to different, like you said you went to Newport News for that one, would you travel around to unload the ships or load the ships? George Wyatt: No. Well, basically the terminals and the [indistinct 00:34:35] were basically in Norfolk. They had one in Newport News— Mary Hebert: That you'd go to? George Wyatt: —that we'd go to. And every now and then we would go to Portsmouth where the Portsmouth marine terminal is now, we would go over there. Mary Hebert: And so you've unloaded just about everything in your career as a longshoreman? George Wyatt: Yes. Mary Hebert: Canned goods, airplane engines, whatever needed. George Wyatt: Automobiles. Trucks. And they were shipping Army trucks and things overseas, and we loaded everything that. Mary Hebert: How did the civil rights movement and the changes in the segregation laws, did it impact your job at all? Did the union combine into one rather than having two locals? George Wyatt: That has never changed. Mary Hebert: So you still have two? George Wyatt: Still have two locals. Mary Hebert: One's predominantly Black, the other predominantly White? George Wyatt: Yes. Well now we have more than two now. Mary Hebert: But you still have that separate? George Wyatt: But that separation was started way back. I think the White local was first. The Blacks didn't come on until later. But the Whites did not want to go on the ship and the Blacks didn't mind going on the ship. So that generated the two locals there. Well, I said there eight or nine locals now because you got 1624 that's predominantly White. And they do the checking and when or whatever, the cargo that the longshoreman really honestly has nothing to do with, but the longshoreman, all they do is take it and put it on the ship and take it off the ship. The 1624 is a White local, and they were always paid at additionally to what the longshoreman got, even though they negotiate together. But the checkers get an eight hour day whenever they go to work. Mary Hebert: So even if they don't do any? George Wyatt: If the ship doesn't get in, they going to get eight hours. The longshoreman is guaranteed four hours and if the ship doesn't come in, he will get that four hours. But the checkers are going to get paid eight hours whether the ship come or doesn't come. Mary Hebert: Was there any attempt to equalize that? George Wyatt: No, there has never really been any attempt to equalize that. Because in most cases, back years ago, in most cases, four hours was basically as long as the ship would stay here. Now the ship stay longer, but at that time, four hours would be basically tend to the ship and— Mary Hebert: So you would get it loaded and unloaded in four hours? George Wyatt: Well, with whatever they had with the cargo they had. Mary Hebert: I'm sorry to interrupted. George Wyatt: When you asked about equalizing the pay and I said no, there was some friction because the checkers would always try to get the longshoreman to do their bidding for them. Because that's the only way they could really get in is have the longshoreman to side with them. If the longshoreman didn't side with them, they would not have had an eight-hour day. And checkers and clerks and delivery clerks, and of course with this change, I really don't know how that's working there, because I haven't been out there, I really haven't, well, I haven't been really tied into their systems since '82. Mary Hebert: Is that when you retired? George Wyatt: No, I didn't retire until '95. Mary Hebert: Oh, okay. George Wyatt: '94. Mary Hebert: So you went on to another job after? George Wyatt: Well see, I was, when I was secretary treasurer for the Local 1248 for 28 years, I was elected in, well, some fictions went on in the fellow that was in there. I was elected in 1956. And I held that job until 1980. 20 years, for more then 20 years. Mary Hebert: I'll figure it out. George Wyatt: For 28 years. Mary Hebert: '84? George Wyatt: Okay. I kept that job until, and then when I left that job, then I went to, as an insurance clerk for the union and another department and I stayed there until '94. Mary Hebert: So when you're working secretary treasurer, you didn't work on the docks? George Wyatt: No. Mary Hebert: So you just— George Wyatt: But see, working as secretary treasurer for local, I was involved in all of the inroads. When I say inroads, negotiations and everything, I sat in on all of those. Mary Hebert: What were your duties as the secretary treasurer, would you— George Wyatt: Well, my duties as secretary treasurer, I took orders for gangs. I kept a log on each gang that went out each day. I kept the finances. Finances of the local. And we were ordered to twice a year. And ordered twice a year, I think at one time I was two or 3 cents off in my figures and what the auditor found. Mary Hebert: That's not bad. A couple of cents. George Wyatt: No. Mary Hebert: How were the dues collected? Were they withheld from checks? George Wyatt: No. Well, at first the persons paid their dues individually. Then they went to checkoff. Where out of each hour you worked, so much money for your dues and at the end of a month, the people send the dues to [indistinct 00:42:16] Mary Hebert: What were the negotiations like? I mean, when you were involved in that, were they heated and lots of arguments? George Wyatt: Oh, a lot of them were heated. Yes, very heated. And then they weren't that heated either. They were heated to the degree, but they never got out of control. I'll say it that way. Mary Hebert: I need to turn this—