WEBVTT
1
00:00:01.499 --> 00:00:04.776
John, thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed.
2
00:00:04.776 --> 00:00:08.109
If you can just say and spell your name.
3
00:00:09.921 --> 00:00:14.299
My name, my full name is John, J-O-H-N
4
00:00:14.299 --> 00:00:17.561
Edward, E-D-W-A-R-D
5
00:00:17.561 --> 00:00:21.720
Strausz, S-T-R-A-U-S-Z
6
00:00:21.720 --> 00:00:24.955
Clement, C-L-E-M-E-N-T.
7
00:00:24.955 --> 00:00:26.596
Thank you very much.
8
00:00:26.596 --> 00:00:28.846
And, are you lay or clergy?
9
00:00:30.699 --> 00:00:32.339
I am clergy.
10
00:00:32.339 --> 00:00:35.139
And, your denomination is?
11
00:00:35.139 --> 00:00:36.788
Presbyterian.
12
00:00:36.788 --> 00:00:37.972
Thank you.
13
00:00:37.972 --> 00:00:40.889
John, when and where were you born?
14
00:00:41.827 --> 00:00:44.410
I was born in Enid, Oklahoma.
15
00:00:46.204 --> 00:00:48.954
Great. And, when were you born?
16
00:00:49.913 --> 00:00:51.413
January 9, 1934.
17
00:00:53.010 --> 00:00:54.999
Thank you very much.
18
00:00:54.999 --> 00:00:56.860
Where did you go to school?
19
00:00:56.860 --> 00:00:59.531
Graduate, Divinity school ...
20
00:00:59.531 --> 00:01:02.338
I graduated from Oberlin College and went to
21
00:01:02.338 --> 00:01:04.553
Union Theological Seminary.
22
00:01:04.553 --> 00:01:06.346
Oh, great. Thank you.
23
00:01:06.346 --> 00:01:09.781
And John, what work or ministry were you doing
24
00:01:09.781 --> 00:01:13.118
at the time of Re-Imagining, in 1993?
25
00:01:13.118 --> 00:01:17.285
I was the executive of the Presbytery of Pittsburgh.
26
00:01:19.339 --> 00:01:22.392
Okay. Thank you very much.
27
00:01:22.392 --> 00:01:26.559
And, what work or ministry did you do after Re-Imagining?
28
00:01:29.248 --> 00:01:33.933
I did an interim ministry in Carlisle, Pennsylvania
29
00:01:33.933 --> 00:01:36.202
in the Presbytery of Carlisle in Pennsylvania,
30
00:01:36.202 --> 00:01:38.839
for an interim after I left Pittsburgh.
31
00:01:38.839 --> 00:01:42.590
Then I went to a permanent position in
32
00:01:42.590 --> 00:01:45.340
Blackhawk Presbytery in Illinois.
33
00:01:48.818 --> 00:01:50.421
Oregon, Illinois.
34
00:01:50.421 --> 00:01:52.713
Okay, thank you.
35
00:01:52.713 --> 00:01:55.676
John, how and when did you first become aware
36
00:01:55.676 --> 00:01:57.426
of feminist theology?
37
00:02:02.076 --> 00:02:04.531
With my former wife,
38
00:02:04.531 --> 00:02:06.198
Jan Simpson Clement,
39
00:02:08.547 --> 00:02:12.366
who died before the conference began,
40
00:02:12.366 --> 00:02:14.700
but she was a strong feminist
41
00:02:14.700 --> 00:02:16.969
and did read feminist theology.
42
00:02:16.969 --> 00:02:20.476
She was an elder in the Presbyterian Church.
43
00:02:20.476 --> 00:02:23.285
Oh, okay. That's great. Okay.
44
00:02:23.285 --> 00:02:27.285
So, you attended- you're wife at the time, Judy,
45
00:02:28.776 --> 00:02:32.943
was involved in planning the 1993 gathering, correct?
46
00:02:34.700 --> 00:02:38.450
Yes, I knew- it was after my wife had died.
47
00:02:40.361 --> 00:02:43.194
Judy and I began conversations and
48
00:02:44.099 --> 00:02:47.563
she ended up- before we got married, she was working
49
00:02:47.563 --> 00:02:49.063
on the conference.
50
00:02:49.899 --> 00:02:52.831
And, she suggested that I might want to attend.
51
00:02:52.831 --> 00:02:54.652
I had never heard of it.
52
00:02:54.652 --> 00:02:55.819
And, so I did.
53
00:02:57.768 --> 00:03:02.550
I did go to my committee, my personnel committee
54
00:03:02.550 --> 00:03:04.383
and ask if I could use
55
00:03:06.112 --> 00:03:07.779
my Sunday leave time
56
00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:11.352
to go to the conference, and Sunday leave money,
57
00:03:11.352 --> 00:03:12.789
and they approved it.
58
00:03:12.789 --> 00:03:16.066
John, what do you recall about your experience
59
00:03:16.066 --> 00:03:18.649
at the Re-Imagining conference?
60
00:03:22.075 --> 00:03:24.126
I found it very exciting.
61
00:03:24.126 --> 00:03:27.925
Of course, I was only one of the 83 men,
62
00:03:27.925 --> 00:03:32.489
out of the several thousand women who were there.
63
00:03:32.489 --> 00:03:35.561
I was welcomed, and I sat at a table
64
00:03:35.561 --> 00:03:38.061
with all women, except myself,
65
00:03:39.093 --> 00:03:43.260
and I had a very positive experience with that table
66
00:03:44.521 --> 00:03:47.748
and with the conversations that went on there,
67
00:03:47.748 --> 00:03:49.771
and with the whole conference.
68
00:03:49.771 --> 00:03:51.632
Oh, that's good to hear.
69
00:03:51.632 --> 00:03:54.298
Are there particular memories that you have
70
00:03:54.298 --> 00:03:55.277
from that conference
71
00:03:55.277 --> 00:03:58.027
that were very meaningful to you?
72
00:04:00.252 --> 00:04:03.252
Well, yes, I had not been familiar
73
00:04:04.128 --> 00:04:06.461
with the theology of Sophia,
74
00:04:07.668 --> 00:04:08.585
and wisdom.
75
00:04:10.048 --> 00:04:12.188
So, that was a new experience for me,
76
00:04:12.188 --> 00:04:13.265
and new knowledge,
77
00:04:13.265 --> 00:04:15.378
so that was one of the very positive
78
00:04:15.378 --> 00:04:16.344
that I got.
79
00:04:16.344 --> 00:04:17.814
That's great.
80
00:04:17.814 --> 00:04:21.981
I know that you were directly affected by the backlash.
81
00:04:23.277 --> 00:04:27.360
Could you talk about how you were affected by it?
82
00:04:28.769 --> 00:04:32.269
Well, let's see, how do I go about that?
83
00:04:33.996 --> 00:04:36.246
After my wife died, I went-
84
00:04:38.230 --> 00:04:39.063
I had-
85
00:04:42.235 --> 00:04:46.280
My ability as an Executive was focused on
86
00:04:46.280 --> 00:04:48.664
being with her and with her death
87
00:04:48.664 --> 00:04:50.790
and sometime thereafter,
88
00:04:50.790 --> 00:04:52.873
in the- after that death.
89
00:04:54.049 --> 00:04:56.854
So, I don't think- I just-
90
00:04:56.854 --> 00:04:59.631
My own impression was that I was not being
91
00:04:59.631 --> 00:05:02.128
as effective as a Presbyter Executive
92
00:05:02.128 --> 00:05:03.554
that I should be.
93
00:05:03.554 --> 00:05:04.721
Anyway, after,
94
00:05:06.706 --> 00:05:08.287
after my wife died,
95
00:05:08.287 --> 00:05:10.109
and Judy and I-
96
00:05:10.109 --> 00:05:12.859
Judy had mentioned the conference
97
00:05:14.794 --> 00:05:18.711
and she- about five months before our marriage.
98
00:05:20.722 --> 00:05:23.117
Then when we got married in November,
99
00:05:23.117 --> 00:05:26.034
I mean, we got married in May 30th,
100
00:05:28.352 --> 00:05:30.685
let's see what was the date?
101
00:05:34.247 --> 00:05:36.330
It was in May 30th, 1993.
102
00:05:39.751 --> 00:05:42.397
And the conference took place in November.
103
00:05:42.397 --> 00:05:43.230
Right.
104
00:05:44.318 --> 00:05:48.400
And so, well I had already heard about the conference
105
00:05:48.400 --> 00:05:50.065
before we got married and I had already
106
00:05:50.065 --> 00:05:52.065
made plans to attend it.
107
00:05:53.328 --> 00:05:54.606
Now, did I answer the question,
108
00:05:54.606 --> 00:05:57.174
or is there still more that I need to say?
109
00:05:57.174 --> 00:05:58.597
Oh, well that's helpful,
110
00:05:58.597 --> 00:06:01.344
that explains how you went to the conference.
111
00:06:01.344 --> 00:06:04.390
Now, just to be clear, were you already-
112
00:06:04.390 --> 00:06:07.653
you were already Executive Presbyter
113
00:06:07.653 --> 00:06:10.033
in Pittsburgh at the time of the conference.
114
00:06:10.033 --> 00:06:10.953
That is correct.
115
00:06:10.953 --> 00:06:11.998
Okay.
116
00:06:11.998 --> 00:06:16.165
I was Executive with my wife Jan there with me in '92,
117
00:06:18.043 --> 00:06:19.817
so, yes, I was there.
118
00:06:19.817 --> 00:06:24.550
Okay, good. So, then you and Judy got married in May.
119
00:06:24.550 --> 00:06:26.636
You attended the conference.
120
00:06:26.636 --> 00:06:29.469
You were in Pittsburgh Presbytery.
121
00:06:30.786 --> 00:06:32.819
Correct.
And then you were-
122
00:06:32.819 --> 00:06:36.986
How were you affected by the backlash against Re-Imagining?
123
00:06:38.222 --> 00:06:42.176
Well, I think, you know, there was, what happened
124
00:06:42.176 --> 00:06:45.759
was that on the- in January, the conference
125
00:06:46.775 --> 00:06:48.816
was in November,
126
00:06:48.816 --> 00:06:52.157
the first Presbyterian meeting in January.
127
00:06:52.157 --> 00:06:54.586
I was attacked verbally on the floor
128
00:06:54.586 --> 00:06:57.575
of the Presbytery for attending the conference.
129
00:06:57.575 --> 00:07:02.225
And, the next meeting of the Presbytery in February
130
00:07:02.225 --> 00:07:06.099
I gave that statement, which you have,
131
00:07:06.099 --> 00:07:07.195
Yes.
132
00:07:07.195 --> 00:07:10.695
Defending the Presbyterian understanding
133
00:07:13.128 --> 00:07:15.295
of reformation and reform,
134
00:07:17.559 --> 00:07:20.324
reform and constantly reforming.
135
00:07:20.324 --> 00:07:24.967
And that Presbyterians are open to hearing new ideas
136
00:07:24.967 --> 00:07:29.134
and new ways of thinking about the scripture and faith.
137
00:07:30.855 --> 00:07:33.590
And, that statement clarifies
138
00:07:33.590 --> 00:07:36.385
what I was trying to say.
139
00:07:36.385 --> 00:07:38.506
That's how it affected me.
140
00:07:38.506 --> 00:07:39.756
Following that,
141
00:07:42.125 --> 00:07:44.792
through the year following that,
142
00:07:46.293 --> 00:07:47.710
that was in 1995,
143
00:07:50.337 --> 00:07:51.190
was it?
144
00:07:51.190 --> 00:07:52.154
Or, 1994.
145
00:07:52.154 --> 00:07:53.511
Right.
146
00:07:53.511 --> 00:07:56.594
Following that year there were some
147
00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:04.313
I guess people who felt that I was not,
148
00:08:04.313 --> 00:08:05.146
was not
149
00:08:06.019 --> 00:08:08.186
the executive I should be,
150
00:08:09.900 --> 00:08:14.093
and Pittsburgh Presbytery is a very, very
151
00:08:14.093 --> 00:08:16.374
conservative Presbytery.
152
00:08:16.374 --> 00:08:20.087
And I am not a very, very conservative person.
153
00:08:20.087 --> 00:08:22.337
Or, theologically I am not.
154
00:08:23.455 --> 00:08:27.767
So, there might have been some minor conflict there.
155
00:08:27.767 --> 00:08:30.934
But, there was a group that I suspect,
156
00:08:31.780 --> 00:08:33.972
I cannot say for sure, but I suspect
157
00:08:33.972 --> 00:08:36.639
formed a cabal to get rid of me.
158
00:08:39.008 --> 00:08:41.458
And, I do remember saying to my staff,
159
00:08:41.458 --> 00:08:43.046
I'm not planning to leave,
160
00:08:43.046 --> 00:08:44.943
I'm planning to retire from here.
161
00:08:44.943 --> 00:08:46.572
So, I knew there was something going on
162
00:08:46.572 --> 00:08:48.059
in the background.
163
00:08:48.059 --> 00:08:50.404
But, I didn't know exactly what it was.
164
00:08:50.404 --> 00:08:53.753
They, or this group, or persons
165
00:08:53.753 --> 00:08:56.654
who didn't want me around
166
00:08:56.654 --> 00:09:00.154
finally got our general council in January
167
00:09:02.371 --> 00:09:06.371
to set up a special committee to review my work.
168
00:09:09.295 --> 00:09:10.938
And, I had already been reviewed
169
00:09:10.938 --> 00:09:12.872
by the personnel committee, so why did they
170
00:09:12.872 --> 00:09:14.017
need to do that?
171
00:09:14.017 --> 00:09:16.407
But, they did it anyway, and the committee was set up
172
00:09:16.407 --> 00:09:18.256
to review my work.
173
00:09:18.256 --> 00:09:23.034
And that committee interviewed me several times,
174
00:09:23.034 --> 00:09:25.190
had several meetings with me,
175
00:09:25.190 --> 00:09:27.211
and I realized at the time
176
00:09:27.211 --> 00:09:29.389
that I was in trouble.
177
00:09:29.389 --> 00:09:33.556
So, I asked some Executives in nearby Presbyteries,
178
00:09:34.885 --> 00:09:37.511
whom I knew, to go to the meetings with me,
179
00:09:37.511 --> 00:09:39.679
well none of them were able to make
180
00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:41.947
those committee meetings, and so,
181
00:09:41.947 --> 00:09:44.530
one did, and one came one time.
182
00:09:45.421 --> 00:09:47.426
So, I asked the Synod Executive,
183
00:09:47.426 --> 00:09:51.632
which is- do you know the Presbyterian system?
184
00:09:51.632 --> 00:09:54.917
Not all the details of it, honestly.
185
00:09:54.917 --> 00:09:59.321
Well, the Presbyteries belong to a geographic area
186
00:09:59.321 --> 00:10:01.273
called a synod, and the Synod Executive
187
00:10:01.273 --> 00:10:05.023
is kind of the coordinator for the Executives
188
00:10:06.201 --> 00:10:10.349
and the Presbyteries within that geographic area.
189
00:10:10.349 --> 00:10:14.176
I asked the Synod Executive to come to the meetings with me,
190
00:10:14.176 --> 00:10:15.009
and he
191
00:10:17.180 --> 00:10:19.369
was also unable to come,
192
00:10:19.369 --> 00:10:21.437
or decided not to come.
193
00:10:21.437 --> 00:10:23.498
And, I believe he might have made a phone call,
194
00:10:23.498 --> 00:10:26.465
but that was all, and then he gave Tom
195
00:10:26.465 --> 00:10:29.061
the equivocal support.
196
00:10:29.061 --> 00:10:31.048
So, I felt very much alone.
197
00:10:31.048 --> 00:10:32.465
So, I went, I got
198
00:10:33.834 --> 00:10:35.334
a retired attorney
199
00:10:36.370 --> 00:10:38.831
who was known to be very feisty
200
00:10:38.831 --> 00:10:41.755
and very supportive of his clients,
201
00:10:41.755 --> 00:10:44.155
and he went with me pro-bono
202
00:10:44.155 --> 00:10:46.583
to some of the meetings,
203
00:10:46.583 --> 00:10:49.690
and let the committee know that I
204
00:10:49.690 --> 00:10:51.690
was not going re-routed.
205
00:10:53.503 --> 00:10:55.420
So, that's how it went.
206
00:10:57.135 --> 00:11:00.846
The committee, the personal, special committee
207
00:11:00.846 --> 00:11:05.013
that was established came to me in May of that year.
208
00:11:06.788 --> 00:11:09.621
I believe it was May of that year.
209
00:11:12.959 --> 00:11:17.692
They had a special meeting with me first, I guess.
210
00:11:17.692 --> 00:11:20.518
They came to me with the-
211
00:11:20.518 --> 00:11:23.185
They invited me to come to lunch
212
00:11:24.699 --> 00:11:27.521
with two of the members, three of the members
213
00:11:27.521 --> 00:11:29.241
of the committee.
214
00:11:29.241 --> 00:11:31.608
So, I didn't know what they wanted.
215
00:11:31.608 --> 00:11:34.384
I didn't know why they were inviting me to lunch.
216
00:11:34.384 --> 00:11:36.778
They didn't give me any agenda for the lunch.
217
00:11:36.778 --> 00:11:39.861
So, I went to lunch, and at the lunch
218
00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:43.965
they said that they were going to ask me to resign,
219
00:11:43.965 --> 00:11:48.070
they had a report and they were gonna bring that report
220
00:11:48.070 --> 00:11:50.153
to the Presbytery meeting
221
00:11:51.953 --> 00:11:53.286
on May the 25th.
222
00:11:54.356 --> 00:11:56.939
And, they said they were gonna-
223
00:11:57.980 --> 00:12:01.813
They would offer me a three month's severance.
224
00:12:03.753 --> 00:12:05.253
If I would resign.
225
00:12:06.363 --> 00:12:08.300
I was totally surprised.
226
00:12:08.300 --> 00:12:09.604
Totally surprised.
227
00:12:09.604 --> 00:12:11.604
I wasn't expecting this.
228
00:12:13.068 --> 00:12:15.446
I refused to give them-
229
00:12:15.446 --> 00:12:17.774
they pressed me for an answer,
230
00:12:17.774 --> 00:12:19.812
and I refused to give them an answer.
231
00:12:19.812 --> 00:12:23.729
Left half my lunch on the table and walked out.
232
00:12:27.368 --> 00:12:32.064
And then Judy and I spent a lot of time thinking about this,
233
00:12:32.064 --> 00:12:35.092
talking about it, in fact we had been thinking
234
00:12:35.092 --> 00:12:38.160
and talking about it even before that meeting took place.
235
00:12:38.160 --> 00:12:41.993
And praying about it. And so, on May the 10th,
236
00:12:43.647 --> 00:12:47.480
I announced at the Presbytery Council meeting,
237
00:12:48.371 --> 00:12:50.538
I decided I wanted to take
238
00:12:53.099 --> 00:12:55.336
responsibility for my own life
239
00:12:55.336 --> 00:12:57.703
and not have somebody push me out.
240
00:12:57.703 --> 00:13:01.111
So, I chose to announce my retirement.
241
00:13:01.111 --> 00:13:04.609
I would take charge and announce my retirement,
242
00:13:04.609 --> 00:13:06.526
effective May the 31st.
243
00:13:09.496 --> 00:13:12.980
That then got published in the Presbyterian.
244
00:13:12.980 --> 00:13:15.071
Quite a few members of the Presbyter,
245
00:13:15.071 --> 00:13:18.995
they called me and asked me to think about
246
00:13:18.995 --> 00:13:22.606
rescinding my resignation, because they felt like
247
00:13:22.606 --> 00:13:26.264
I was well enough liked and supported
248
00:13:26.264 --> 00:13:29.431
that I had enough support that I could
249
00:13:30.673 --> 00:13:32.256
win this challenge.
250
00:13:35.762 --> 00:13:39.929
And, on the 25th of May, when the Presbytery meeting met,
251
00:13:45.297 --> 00:13:48.444
the Presbytery voted to accept my resignation,
252
00:13:48.444 --> 00:13:50.447
although they had to send somebody to.
253
00:13:50.447 --> 00:13:53.219
I sat in a separate room, I didn't even go inside
254
00:13:53.219 --> 00:13:55.440
where the Presbytery meeting was meeting.
255
00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:57.336
I sat in a separate room,
256
00:13:57.336 --> 00:14:00.505
they sent a person to that room
257
00:14:00.505 --> 00:14:02.841
and said, "Would you be willing to
258
00:14:02.841 --> 00:14:05.924
take your resignation off the table?"
259
00:14:07.834 --> 00:14:10.573
And, I said, "No, I've made the decision,
260
00:14:10.573 --> 00:14:12.593
I'm gonna stick with it."
261
00:14:12.593 --> 00:14:14.499
So, we went back, and the Presbytery voted
262
00:14:14.499 --> 00:14:18.496
to accept my resignation, but they gave me
263
00:14:18.496 --> 00:14:19.329
a year
264
00:14:22.885 --> 00:14:24.052
severance pay.
265
00:14:25.421 --> 00:14:28.838
Or, as much as- up until I got a new job.
266
00:14:30.701 --> 00:14:33.168
So, if I could find in six months,
267
00:14:33.168 --> 00:14:35.371
I would get six months severance,
268
00:14:35.371 --> 00:14:37.056
if I got three months, I'd get three months,
269
00:14:37.056 --> 00:14:41.223
if I got ten months, I'd get ten months, and so forth.
270
00:14:44.364 --> 00:14:47.124
So, that night, after I had resigned,
271
00:14:47.124 --> 00:14:50.041
they voted that, for the full year.
272
00:14:51.084 --> 00:14:54.758
Then my friends came to me and said, look,
273
00:14:54.758 --> 00:14:58.320
you've got a year's vacation, take it.
274
00:14:58.320 --> 00:14:59.984
I didn't.
275
00:14:59.984 --> 00:15:01.633
It was tempting, of course.
276
00:15:01.633 --> 00:15:03.434
But, I didn't take it.
277
00:15:03.434 --> 00:15:07.402
And, within two months, I was the Interim Executive
278
00:15:07.402 --> 00:15:09.485
in Carlisle Presbyterian.
279
00:15:12.156 --> 00:15:17.064
Wow, John, that's quite an experience you went through.
280
00:15:17.064 --> 00:15:18.476
Judy-
281
00:15:18.476 --> 00:15:19.575
Yes?
282
00:15:19.575 --> 00:15:22.825
Judy later on said that, if I hadn't-
283
00:15:28.544 --> 00:15:31.983
let me say a little bit more about the Presbytery.
284
00:15:31.983 --> 00:15:32.816
Yes.
285
00:15:38.384 --> 00:15:42.024
Let's see, Judy and I spent many hours talking about this,
286
00:15:42.024 --> 00:15:44.107
resignation is effective.
287
00:15:45.841 --> 00:15:49.246
Friends urged me to take a vacation, yes.
288
00:15:49.246 --> 00:15:50.258
Okay.
289
00:15:50.258 --> 00:15:54.989
Oh, letter to the editor, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.
290
00:15:54.989 --> 00:15:57.815
On June the 6th, after that Presbyterian meeting
291
00:15:57.815 --> 00:16:01.648
where I resigned, the reverend Robert R. Kopp,
292
00:16:03.502 --> 00:16:05.642
the conservative pastor of Logan's Ferry
293
00:16:05.642 --> 00:16:10.161
Presbyterian Church wrote in the letter to the paper:
294
00:16:10.161 --> 00:16:13.683
"While being an Executive in Pittsburgh Presbytery
295
00:16:13.683 --> 00:16:17.505
is like putting on a deer skin and walking
296
00:16:17.505 --> 00:16:19.947
through the woods on the first day
297
00:16:19.947 --> 00:16:21.920
of hunting season,
298
00:16:21.920 --> 00:16:23.916
it must be said loud and clear
299
00:16:23.916 --> 00:16:26.631
that most members of Pittsburgh Presbytery
300
00:16:26.631 --> 00:16:29.348
liked and affirmed our recently resigned
301
00:16:29.348 --> 00:16:31.459
Executive Presbytery.
302
00:16:31.459 --> 00:16:33.546
His ministry was liked and affirmed
303
00:16:33.546 --> 00:16:36.692
by liberals, conservatives and moderates.
304
00:16:36.692 --> 00:16:40.592
He was undermined and eventually encouraged to resign
305
00:16:40.592 --> 00:16:43.175
by folks with dubious motives."
306
00:16:44.686 --> 00:16:45.776
Wow.
307
00:16:45.776 --> 00:16:49.943
Then Judy said later, reflecting on our experience noted
308
00:16:51.505 --> 00:16:54.768
that the tensions, the stress, and the pressures
309
00:16:54.768 --> 00:16:59.024
of the job, with the conflicts that went with it said,
310
00:16:59.024 --> 00:17:03.191
"If we had stayed you probably would be dead by now."
311
00:17:05.849 --> 00:17:07.182
Oh, John. Wow.
312
00:17:10.426 --> 00:17:12.676
So, how did it affect me?
313
00:17:15.636 --> 00:17:19.694
Yeah. Wow. I just- this all happened in 1994?
314
00:17:19.694 --> 00:17:21.848
Is that correct?
315
00:17:21.848 --> 00:17:23.015
'94 and '95.
316
00:17:25.966 --> 00:17:28.936
I was attacked on the Presbytery floor
317
00:17:28.936 --> 00:17:33.663
in January of '94, and my resignation took place
318
00:17:33.663 --> 00:17:34.830
in May of '95.
319
00:17:36.432 --> 00:17:39.349
Oh. And, so that was a long time.
320
00:17:40.635 --> 00:17:44.890
That period in '94, that period is what I was
321
00:17:44.890 --> 00:17:47.674
talking about when I knew there was rumblings
322
00:17:47.674 --> 00:17:49.613
going on in the Presbytery,
323
00:17:49.613 --> 00:17:52.863
and then the Presbytery general council
324
00:17:55.750 --> 00:18:00.249
formed a special committee in January of '95,
325
00:18:00.249 --> 00:18:04.332
and then my resignation took place in May of '95.
326
00:18:05.314 --> 00:18:06.912
Thank you for clarifying that.
327
00:18:06.912 --> 00:18:08.541
Now, who were the members of the committee?
328
00:18:08.541 --> 00:18:10.811
I don't necessarily need names, but who
329
00:18:10.811 --> 00:18:13.644
would be on the committee? Elders?
330
00:18:15.579 --> 00:18:17.405
Some pastors and some laypeople.
331
00:18:17.405 --> 00:18:18.283
Okay.
332
00:18:18.283 --> 00:18:19.831
And there was a judge on there
333
00:18:19.831 --> 00:18:21.575
that I will not name,
334
00:18:21.575 --> 00:18:25.606
who was on the search committee when they called me
335
00:18:25.606 --> 00:18:28.660
and they put him on the committee as well.
336
00:18:28.660 --> 00:18:31.408
But there were members of the Presbytery,
337
00:18:31.408 --> 00:18:34.077
some pastors and some laypeople,
338
00:18:34.077 --> 00:18:36.327
I do not now know how many.
339
00:18:38.353 --> 00:18:40.770
It was probably six or seven.
340
00:18:42.745 --> 00:18:45.642
And you had mentioned they asked you questions, John.
341
00:18:45.642 --> 00:18:49.309
What kind of questions were they asking you?
342
00:18:51.242 --> 00:18:53.742
Well, I think they asked me-
343
00:18:56.757 --> 00:18:59.724
they asked me questions like,
344
00:18:59.724 --> 00:19:02.480
do you return your phone calls?
345
00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:05.348
Do you answer your letters?
346
00:19:05.348 --> 00:19:09.905
Of course I did all of that, stupid questions.
347
00:19:09.905 --> 00:19:10.738
The-
348
00:19:14.396 --> 00:19:17.746
The committee wanted to know- I think
349
00:19:17.746 --> 00:19:20.095
I remember now, I read the committee report
350
00:19:20.095 --> 00:19:23.784
that's been destroyed, and I don't have it.
351
00:19:23.784 --> 00:19:26.763
Because the committee report never got on
352
00:19:26.763 --> 00:19:29.030
the floor of the Presbyterian.
353
00:19:29.030 --> 00:19:31.866
Because of my resignation,
354
00:19:31.866 --> 00:19:34.085
that was never read, never brought
355
00:19:34.085 --> 00:19:36.166
to the floor of the Presbytery.
356
00:19:36.166 --> 00:19:38.916
So, that report is dead and gone.
357
00:19:39.903 --> 00:19:41.902
And, so, I'm just doing this from memory,
358
00:19:41.902 --> 00:19:44.596
but they- one of the accusations that I felt
359
00:19:44.596 --> 00:19:47.988
was very wrong was that I hadn't raised money
360
00:19:47.988 --> 00:19:50.182
for the Presbytery.
361
00:19:50.182 --> 00:19:52.432
And, of course, I had, but-
362
00:19:54.223 --> 00:19:58.302
And, there were other questions in that report
363
00:19:58.302 --> 00:20:00.471
that I could have fought,
364
00:20:00.471 --> 00:20:03.642
and my attorney could have helped me with that,
365
00:20:03.642 --> 00:20:05.725
but I chose not to do it.
366
00:20:07.145 --> 00:20:11.312
What do you actually think was behind this committee?
367
00:20:14.690 --> 00:20:17.523
I think probably the fact that I
368
00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:22.715
was too liberal
369
00:20:22.715 --> 00:20:25.347
for the Presbytery and I admit that.
370
00:20:25.347 --> 00:20:27.267
I was really surprised that I became
371
00:20:27.267 --> 00:20:30.991
the Executive of the Presbytery, I had been warned
372
00:20:30.991 --> 00:20:35.594
by the Synod Executive where I was Presbytery Executive
373
00:20:35.594 --> 00:20:37.427
in Syracuse, New York.
374
00:20:39.153 --> 00:20:43.320
The Synod Executive Eugene Turner was counseling me,
375
00:20:44.320 --> 00:20:46.210
said, that's a very conservative Presbytery,
376
00:20:46.210 --> 00:20:47.218
I wouldn't go there.
377
00:20:47.218 --> 00:20:49.023
Well, I didn't listen to him.
378
00:20:49.023 --> 00:20:51.824
And, I went, and so, I think the fact that
379
00:20:51.824 --> 00:20:53.574
I was not a good fit,
380
00:20:56.613 --> 00:20:58.203
theologically,
381
00:20:58.203 --> 00:21:00.717
for the Presbytery was behind it,
382
00:21:00.717 --> 00:21:03.509
as well as the fact that I went to the-
383
00:21:03.509 --> 00:21:07.259
publicly went to the Re-Imagining conference.
384
00:21:08.783 --> 00:21:11.279
How big a role do you think your attendance
385
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.446
at the Re-Imagining conference played?
386
00:21:16.370 --> 00:21:19.120
Well, it was certainly a start.
387
00:21:20.271 --> 00:21:22.594
I think the fact that my wife had died,
388
00:21:22.594 --> 00:21:25.927
I didn't function very well for a while,
389
00:21:27.547 --> 00:21:29.705
even though, as I look back on it,
390
00:21:29.705 --> 00:21:32.787
and I look back at my reports,
391
00:21:32.787 --> 00:21:37.046
I had work objectives which I had accomplished,
392
00:21:37.046 --> 00:21:40.046
even while all of that was going on.
393
00:21:41.575 --> 00:21:45.014
But, I think that the fact that-
394
00:21:45.014 --> 00:21:48.564
that probably helped, plus the fact that
395
00:21:48.564 --> 00:21:50.778
I was theologically liberal,
396
00:21:50.778 --> 00:21:53.554
and that I attended the conference.
397
00:21:53.554 --> 00:21:56.042
All three probably contributed to the fact
398
00:21:56.042 --> 00:21:58.292
that I was asked to resign.
399
00:22:00.379 --> 00:22:03.330
John, how do you account for the backlash
400
00:22:03.330 --> 00:22:05.997
against Re-Imagining in general?
401
00:22:07.828 --> 00:22:11.161
Oh, well, the late committee was very-
402
00:22:14.679 --> 00:22:18.164
and you've probably heard this from a lot of people,
403
00:22:18.164 --> 00:22:22.519
the late committee had a published paper called,
404
00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:26.269
"The Layman," and it's a conservative element
405
00:22:27.861 --> 00:22:31.042
of the whole Presbyterian Church.
406
00:22:31.042 --> 00:22:34.375
It's constantly attacking social justice
407
00:22:35.618 --> 00:22:38.195
and liberal issues of the church.
408
00:22:38.195 --> 00:22:40.754
And, they just lambasted the conference,
409
00:22:40.754 --> 00:22:43.095
calling it heretical.
410
00:22:43.095 --> 00:22:47.055
And, I had called the conference - not publicly,
411
00:22:47.055 --> 00:22:50.310
but to Judy and to friends - it was a watershed
412
00:22:50.310 --> 00:22:52.643
for the Presbyterian Church.
413
00:22:54.823 --> 00:22:59.449
In what sense would you say it was a watershed, John?
414
00:22:59.449 --> 00:23:03.616
Well, it totally opened up new avenues of thinking
415
00:23:06.491 --> 00:23:08.517
about the scripture.
416
00:23:08.517 --> 00:23:12.553
The feminist theology saw things in scripture
417
00:23:12.553 --> 00:23:14.886
that the men had never seen.
418
00:23:16.561 --> 00:23:18.478
And that new knowledge,
419
00:23:20.925 --> 00:23:23.592
new insight into the scriptures,
420
00:23:24.747 --> 00:23:27.914
from a woman's womanist point of view,
421
00:23:29.238 --> 00:23:30.925
was very significant.
422
00:23:30.925 --> 00:23:35.008
And, it was a new turn in the whole understanding
423
00:23:36.418 --> 00:23:37.751
of the theology.
424
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:40.921
And, that's why I call it a watershed,
425
00:23:40.921 --> 00:23:42.754
because it was a turn,
426
00:23:44.346 --> 00:23:47.679
a switch, a movement in a new direction.
427
00:23:50.447 --> 00:23:54.529
A lot more women coming into the Presbyterian church,
428
00:23:54.529 --> 00:23:57.512
through seminaries and through being called in the church.
429
00:23:57.512 --> 00:24:00.481
That had already begun, and it was becoming
430
00:24:00.481 --> 00:24:01.898
more and more so.
431
00:24:02.950 --> 00:24:05.085
And, I think now,
432
00:24:05.085 --> 00:24:09.182
seminaries now probably have more women,
433
00:24:09.182 --> 00:24:11.937
or at least have women in the seminary,
434
00:24:11.937 --> 00:24:14.177
as there are men.
435
00:24:14.177 --> 00:24:18.479
And, I think that that whole element gave women
436
00:24:18.479 --> 00:24:21.479
a new enthusiasm for their theology,
437
00:24:23.485 --> 00:24:25.485
and their faith as well.
438
00:24:26.426 --> 00:24:27.922
As well as men.
439
00:24:27.922 --> 00:24:32.060
Yes. Yes. Before I forget, I wanted to ask
440
00:24:32.060 --> 00:24:35.560
if you attended the 1994 General Assembly,
441
00:24:37.312 --> 00:24:40.650
where the report was issued about Re-Imaging,
442
00:24:40.650 --> 00:24:44.232
and if you have any memories of that?
443
00:24:44.232 --> 00:24:48.014
Yes, well I think John Buchanan was the chair
444
00:24:48.014 --> 00:24:50.327
of the committee, I believe he was.
445
00:24:50.327 --> 00:24:53.154
He was, and I've interviewed him, yes.
446
00:24:53.154 --> 00:24:56.194
So, I do remember that, and they gave
447
00:24:56.194 --> 00:25:00.111
a very balanced report back to the whole church
448
00:25:02.080 --> 00:25:05.480
that was adopted by the General Assembly.
449
00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:08.693
It wasn't a condemnation of the Re-Imagining conference,
450
00:25:08.693 --> 00:25:10.397
they did not do that.
451
00:25:10.397 --> 00:25:14.887
They supported the women in the Re-Imagining conference,
452
00:25:14.887 --> 00:25:16.669
but they gave a balanced report.
453
00:25:16.669 --> 00:25:20.748
Now, I can't remember how the balanced-
454
00:25:20.748 --> 00:25:23.132
what the details of that report was,
455
00:25:23.132 --> 00:25:26.561
but I was watching that meeting and sitting in that meeting,
456
00:25:26.561 --> 00:25:30.573
both Judy and I were sitting in that meeting while John
457
00:25:30.573 --> 00:25:33.193
and the committee worked on their response
458
00:25:33.193 --> 00:25:35.352
to the Re-Imagining conference.
459
00:25:35.352 --> 00:25:38.424
And, I think they gave a very balanced report.
460
00:25:38.424 --> 00:25:41.147
Oh, great. Thank you, I appreciate that.
461
00:25:41.147 --> 00:25:44.534
In the end, John, what aspects of Re-Imagining
462
00:25:44.534 --> 00:25:47.701
were more significant to you, and why?
463
00:25:51.364 --> 00:25:55.031
Well, I think I've already spoken to that,
464
00:25:57.126 --> 00:26:00.388
the fact that there was new insight in scripture,
465
00:26:00.388 --> 00:26:02.956
and new insight into our faith,
466
00:26:02.956 --> 00:26:04.634
from the womanist point of view,
467
00:26:04.634 --> 00:26:06.896
was the most significant thing that had happened,
468
00:26:06.896 --> 00:26:09.611
and it was the most significant thing for me.
469
00:26:09.611 --> 00:26:12.669
Yes, good. Did your involvement in
470
00:26:12.669 --> 00:26:15.192
the Re-Imagining conference and the backlash
471
00:26:15.192 --> 00:26:18.855
change your perspective on feminist theology
472
00:26:18.855 --> 00:26:20.022
or the church?
473
00:26:22.193 --> 00:26:24.443
No, it just confirmed it.
474
00:26:25.404 --> 00:26:27.237
What did it confirm?
475
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:31.384
Well, I was subliminal feminist before
476
00:26:31.384 --> 00:26:33.967
the conference ever took place.
477
00:26:37.483 --> 00:26:39.400
So, it simply affirmed,
478
00:26:40.290 --> 00:26:43.622
as I said I got new knowledge and new understanding,
479
00:26:43.622 --> 00:26:46.539
but it was, I thought it was great,
480
00:26:47.887 --> 00:26:51.155
and it affirmed, for me it just affirmed
481
00:26:51.155 --> 00:26:53.405
what Jan and then Judy had,
482
00:26:54.813 --> 00:26:56.730
and I had talked about,
483
00:26:58.055 --> 00:26:59.243
and studied.
484
00:26:59.243 --> 00:27:00.243
Yes. Yeah.
485
00:27:01.566 --> 00:27:05.551
In the end, what do you think is the greatest legacy
486
00:27:05.551 --> 00:27:06.884
of Re-Imagining?
487
00:27:11.161 --> 00:27:14.096
Well, I guess I just have to repeat myself,
488
00:27:14.096 --> 00:27:16.866
the new understanding of the scripture,
489
00:27:16.866 --> 00:27:20.116
it was not cold, but looking at Sophia,
490
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:26.583
looking at the Orthodox Church,
491
00:27:27.797 --> 00:27:30.034
there's a church named Sophia.
492
00:27:30.034 --> 00:27:31.171
Yes.
493
00:27:31.171 --> 00:27:35.338
That's not new, but it was new for Presbyterians
494
00:27:36.469 --> 00:27:38.302
and it was new for me.
495
00:27:40.983 --> 00:27:44.333
I think the most significant thing was that
496
00:27:44.333 --> 00:27:47.083
they opened up the eyes of women,
497
00:27:48.870 --> 00:27:51.703
and ears of women to theology that
498
00:27:53.339 --> 00:27:55.922
they can affirm and be part of.
499
00:27:58.042 --> 00:27:59.610
Yeah. That's really helpful.
500
00:27:59.610 --> 00:28:03.153
And, it sounded like the word Sophia
501
00:28:03.153 --> 00:28:05.403
resonated with you as well.
502
00:28:06.460 --> 00:28:07.396
It did.
503
00:28:07.396 --> 00:28:09.063
In what way, John?
504
00:28:09.905 --> 00:28:10.738
Well-
505
00:28:15.265 --> 00:28:18.015
It did for me, because you think,
506
00:28:18.909 --> 00:28:21.516
as Presbyterians, we think of God
507
00:28:21.516 --> 00:28:23.849
as God the father or mother,
508
00:28:25.237 --> 00:28:27.993
and that also is important,
509
00:28:27.993 --> 00:28:32.079
to think of God as mother as well as father.
510
00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:36.219
And, there are other images in scripture,
511
00:28:36.219 --> 00:28:39.065
we think God is mocking other things
512
00:28:39.065 --> 00:28:41.262
there are in scripture,
513
00:28:41.262 --> 00:28:43.762
and the God as the son, Jesus,
514
00:28:45.997 --> 00:28:47.973
and God as spirit,
515
00:28:47.973 --> 00:28:51.712
but spirit could be translated: wisdom.
516
00:28:51.712 --> 00:28:55.129
And, God could be female as well as male.
517
00:28:56.874 --> 00:28:57.882
Yeah.
518
00:28:57.882 --> 00:29:00.580
Because wisdom in the scripture is female.
519
00:29:00.580 --> 00:29:01.747
Right. Yeah.
520
00:29:03.341 --> 00:29:06.583
Two of the goals of Re-Imagining were
521
00:29:06.583 --> 00:29:10.499
to bring inclusive language and feminist theology
522
00:29:10.499 --> 00:29:12.743
to Christian churches.
523
00:29:12.743 --> 00:29:16.451
How would you evaluate where we are today in that?
524
00:29:16.451 --> 00:29:20.618
Well, I think that's what the watershed is all about.
525
00:29:23.922 --> 00:29:27.643
A lot of our churches now are inclusive in the language,
526
00:29:27.643 --> 00:29:30.581
the new pastors that are coming in,
527
00:29:30.581 --> 00:29:31.600
more inclusive.
528
00:29:31.600 --> 00:29:33.930
The women pastors had been there for a long time,
529
00:29:33.930 --> 00:29:35.871
but the new male pastors coming in
530
00:29:35.871 --> 00:29:38.411
are using inclusive language too.
531
00:29:38.411 --> 00:29:41.770
It's only the perhaps very conservative
532
00:29:41.770 --> 00:29:46.024
who simply will not accept anything but God the father
533
00:29:46.024 --> 00:29:47.441
and male theology
534
00:29:49.045 --> 00:29:50.893
may still be resistant,
535
00:29:50.893 --> 00:29:53.393
but I think as a total church,
536
00:29:54.246 --> 00:29:59.077
I think the church has moved to inclusive language.
537
00:29:59.077 --> 00:30:03.531
Mm-hmm. Great. And, I have two final questions.
538
00:30:03.531 --> 00:30:07.428
John, what do you think Re-Imagining means today?
539
00:30:07.428 --> 00:30:10.942
In other words, what is or should be Re-Imagined
540
00:30:10.942 --> 00:30:12.609
in the church today?
541
00:30:15.515 --> 00:30:17.265
Huh. Good question.
542
00:30:18.138 --> 00:30:21.055
I haven't been thinking about that.
543
00:30:23.990 --> 00:30:26.397
What should the church be doing today?
544
00:30:26.397 --> 00:30:27.230
Yeah.
545
00:30:31.296 --> 00:30:33.046
Well, I don't know,
546
00:30:35.737 --> 00:30:39.322
I would assume that maybe the church,
547
00:30:39.322 --> 00:30:42.352
maybe the more conservative element of the church
548
00:30:42.352 --> 00:30:44.269
may come along and join
549
00:30:45.878 --> 00:30:48.764
in the inclusive language
550
00:30:48.764 --> 00:30:52.238
and the understanding of scripture, not only
551
00:30:52.238 --> 00:30:54.689
from their point of view, but also
552
00:30:54.689 --> 00:30:57.107
from the point of view of feminists.
553
00:30:57.107 --> 00:30:59.607
Yeah, yeah. Good, thank you.
554
00:31:00.642 --> 00:31:02.474
And my final question is,
555
00:31:02.474 --> 00:31:06.140
we are working on a Re-Imagining website,
556
00:31:06.140 --> 00:31:09.646
it will be both historical, we're digitizing
557
00:31:09.646 --> 00:31:14.552
all the conferences, but also including resources,
558
00:31:14.552 --> 00:31:17.817
current resources, and I'm wondering if you-
559
00:31:17.817 --> 00:31:20.778
Current what? Resources?
560
00:31:20.778 --> 00:31:24.945
Resources, yes, links to other organizations, or-
561
00:31:26.396 --> 00:31:27.307
Oh, okay.
562
00:31:27.307 --> 00:31:29.730
And, I'm wondering if you have ideas
563
00:31:29.730 --> 00:31:33.356
about what could be included in the website.
564
00:31:33.356 --> 00:31:35.754
That would be helpful.
565
00:31:35.754 --> 00:31:36.587
Huh.
566
00:31:38.174 --> 00:31:39.007
Huh.
567
00:31:39.935 --> 00:31:42.585
You've probably got more ideas than I do
568
00:31:42.585 --> 00:31:43.502
about this.
569
00:31:45.548 --> 00:31:49.548
I'm on the computer every day, but I don't know,
570
00:31:51.773 --> 00:31:53.773
I suppose an interactive
571
00:31:57.108 --> 00:31:59.168
website that people could
572
00:31:59.168 --> 00:32:02.757
put information in and receive information back,
573
00:32:02.757 --> 00:32:04.448
and get in discussions, but I'm sure
574
00:32:04.448 --> 00:32:08.605
you already do that now, or are planning to do that,
575
00:32:08.605 --> 00:32:11.498
but that, I think, would be a good website.
576
00:32:11.498 --> 00:32:13.312
Yes, well, that's good to hear.
577
00:32:13.312 --> 00:32:15.700
That's encouraging.
578
00:32:15.700 --> 00:32:19.361
I have so appreciated your thoughts and time,
579
00:32:19.361 --> 00:32:21.502
is there anything that we have not discussed
580
00:32:21.502 --> 00:32:23.752
that you would like to add?
581
00:32:25.242 --> 00:32:27.325
Um, not that I know of,
582
00:32:31.103 --> 00:32:32.885
Judy and I are very appreciative
583
00:32:32.885 --> 00:32:35.476
of the fact that you're doing this
584
00:32:35.476 --> 00:32:37.482
and, oh, is this going to end up
585
00:32:37.482 --> 00:32:38.461
in the book, as well?
586
00:32:38.461 --> 00:32:40.951
Yeah, hold on one second, I'm gonna turn off the recording
587
00:32:40.951 --> 00:32:42.967
so hold on one second.
588
00:32:42.967 --> 00:32:43.800
Okay.