- Here we go. So, (chuckles) this is fun. - Yeah, and I'm gonna try to just relax about it, because this is a lesbian herstory project, and the reason it's come about is because Merrell suggested that so little of Southern lesbian herstory has been documented. So as you're willing and I am willing we'll share our story of our Miami lesbian dyke experience. You landed there in what year? - October of 1975. - October of '75. And how, what drew you there in the first place, besides work, finding lesbian community, how did you even go about that? First of all, you are a New York dyke, so you are going to search for lesbians naturally. - Absolutely because I cannot live without lesbian family around me. - We're you in a relationship at the time? - No. - And how involved were you in lesbian, what they called lesbian feminist politics at the time? - Very involved I was leaving New York City where I was still working on the lesbian switchboard, and in the Women's Center and I was very involved in the women's community in New York. And when I got down here, within a week, I needed to find some lesbians, somewhere. - What was the first step you took then? - I called the National Organization for Women, I called NOW, and I asked them if they had any lesbians within their local organization, and if they knew of any lesbians or bars or bookstores or anywhere where I might find a lesbian. - Was NOW pretty forthcoming with all that? - Oh, they were very good. They told me right away about the Lesbian Task Force and Maryanne and Louise. And I asked them if they had their phone number. - So they mentioned their names right away? - Oh yes, definitely. And they said that there are other lesbians, a huge group of lesbians involved with the Lesbian Task Force, and to call Maryanne and Louise. So I remember it was a Saturday night, and it was probably around four or five in the afternoon. And I called up and Maryanne got on the phone and I said hi I'm a New York dyke and I just moved down here and I'm looking for lesbians. I called NOW and they gave me your phone number. Are you are you the dykes I'm looking for? And she said we are. And they invited me over that night, and I drove over there and met them and had a good time with them, and they told me about other dykes and invited me to a meeting, of a gay Task Force it was a mixed Task Force. - Was it through NOW, too? - No. - Okay. - And I went with them and I met, Holly Holcomb. - So you didn't meet them through the NOW lesbian chapter of NOW lesbians? You met them through a gay Task Force? - No, I met, I met Maryanne and Louise through the NOW. - But when you went to this meeting, now you're meeting other lesbians but you're meeting them at a gay - Yes - Task force meeting. - Yes. - Where was that at? - Some place downtown, it was near Holly's apartment, which I think she lives somewhere around Temple Israel, off of Biscayne or Northeast Second and 19th. - What was their reason for existing? what was their mo, did they have a political action or anything that they were doing at the time? What did you get out of going to the meeting? - Well, I got out of the fact that I am not used to being around gay men, - Oh, you weren't? - I don't and I still don't like it. And that I could see that they wanted to take over the conversation, and that the dykes weren't letting them. But I didn't really get much out of it. I wasn't real interested in working with them. But I did meet Holly. And I met uh, it's hard to remember who I met were, you know? - Don't worry about that. - But I met. - Did you go back. - Ingrid Hunter. - Ingrid hunter, yeah, yeah. - And I met - Now didn't all these... - Sybil Adams. - All these, these lesbians you're talking about, Do they have like, weren't they in positions of, because the Task Force was a lesbian, the Lesbian Task force of NOW had like chairs or treasuries or secretaries or whatever that those things are. Wasn't Ingrid or Maryanne and Louise part of that? - Well they claim that there was no leader, - Okay. - I remember specifically. - Now specifically that's the Lesbian Task force of NOW/ - Yes. - No leader? - No leader, although Maryanne and Louise really were the leaders, but they didn't want to say they were the leaders. - You felt they were the leaders? - Oh, absolutely. - Oh, well, so, how did you get from, was that the only time you went to the gay... - Yeah, that was the only gay meeting I went to. - I wound up working with gay men again, when Anita Bryant came in. - Oh good question, that was later. - A little bit later. Note that though, because that was kind of an amazing time. - Yeah. - What, so, from that meeting with Maryanne and Louise and the social connection that you made with them. what was the next step to you for getting to the Lesbian Task Force and, was that next and did you do other things in between? - Well, they told me when the next meeting was and it was shortly after I had met them and I showed up there. And it was meeting at the Y. And I met most of my friends there. And after the Y we would go out and go have a couple of drinks and go dancing. - Where'd you go, then? - To the Nook, this little bar in Coral Gables. - No kidding, wow, I've heard talk of it, I've never been there. I don't think we ever got there. - We would go over to the Nook and get a couple of pitchers of beer and dance. And I got to know more people. I got to know Morgana, who was still Morgan. Jeez, it's so hard to remember who was around. - But the characters of our bar-going to Miami, it seems to me that the highlights that I come up with too, when I think about going there now, you were there quite a bit, like probably the fall, before I was there in the spring. But actually, when we got there, and I'd ride with Joan, we were directed to the Lesbian Task Force and Maryanne as well. Through Martha and Lucy, they'd give us Maryanne's phone number. But you had already been part of the Task Force and were they doing any kind of political action? Or what was the formation of the Task Force's purpose, did you have, was there anything that you recollect that you were all organizing for other than just bring yourselves together? - No, and NOW weren't really already politically motivated to do anything except to grow more lesbians and be bigger and do more fun things together. - So it was a... Would you consider socializing as lesbians coming together as lesbians in community, a political action? - Oh, absolutely anything that I do as a lesbian is a political statement. - But yeah, sure it was a political action and just creating those spaces is a political action. - Excellent, yeah, so yeah I agree with you. - And we did, we had art shows on the river walk. - Now you talking about my time, because when I came, after Joan and I arrived, and we arrived into this huge, huge circle of lesbians and, in, and it probably was in the beginning of May of '76. I'm sure you were there, Maryanne and Louise were there. I didn't sense that anyone was a leader either, except that I sensed that they were organizing for Dyke Pride Week. - Yes. - Can you say more about that? So you were organizing for a special event, and it wasn't gay pride. - No, no, no, we didn't want to do gay pride, - Say more about that. How did they come to be? - Well I had spoken to them about Lesbian Pride Week in New York, and that we had split off from the gay men completely, and we demanded that we walk first in the parade too, in the New York, lesbian. We called it the Lesbian and Gay Pride Parade. And the lesbians marched first, because we were tired of being behind the men and the men really didn't represent, who we were. They would get all dressed up in their costumes is what I call them. Their drag queen costumes and carry on on their roller skates with their feathers and boas, and that was not us. We were the dykes. And so we did that. We organized and decided we were not going to march with them. We were going to do our own march, and they followed. And so, when it came to gay pride time down here, it was the same thing, I mean Miami really didn't have a Gay Pride parade. Fort Lauderdale did, but there was really not much Gay Pride going on in Miami. And we decided that we were going to have a Lesbian Pride Week of all different kinds of events. And we had a dance, I remember we had a dance. And we had the art show. - And No Man's Band played. - Um hm. - It was an all women's band called No Man's Band. I remember that dance, - Is that your recollection as well? - Yes, yes, and we just, I remember I organized. I wanted to just be around lesbians all the time, I still do. So I had heard that there was going to be a bluegrass festival on the grounds off of Coral Way, and about in the 70s, not the year 70s, but the streets, at a fairground. And so I called up all the dykes that I knew and I said, let's have a picnic at this music bluegrass festival. It's free to get in and we'll just make our own. And I made a big flag. And I stuck it in the ground. And all the dykes knew to come looking for the flag. And they did and I got great pictures. - What'd the flag say, or what was it, colored? - It was lavender and purple and it had women's, double women's symbols all over it in the stars of the stripes. And everyone knew to come there and there must have been about 25-35 of us, and we just sat and listened to their music and everybody brought food and just had our own little, little bluegrass festival there. And soon our important political action was creating our own space as lesbians. And you were to continue some of this and bring some of your knowledge and wisdom from New York, and your spark. Because during that week, I also remember that there was one evening of, like arts, music, presentations, and movement. And I remember Morgana dancing or moving and Suess who did some kind of, you know, could have been Tai Chi or some kind of movement that was very mellow music-wise and mellow, slow movements and we all were in an audience kind of sense of watching. They were, maybe, those are only two names I remember but there were probably four or five different modalities of movement, and then we were in another room. I think this was all at the YWCA. And we're another room and Joan happened to bring her guitar. Now I don't know why Joan brought her guitar. I don't know she sang anything or planned on singing. Do you remember her singing anything, or playing her guitar? - No, I remember I was playing it. - You borrowed her guitar, and you went on with song after song after song and everybody was glued to the fact that except for Joan who was going, wow, that woman's just taking a long time with my guitar, but she didn't take it away. You just kept going, and you had song after song and lesbian songs. You had carried songs in your pocket from some of them, did you remember, if you sang any of yours, at that time? I know you were singing friends' and Alix's. - Yes, I was. - Do you remember what other music you were singing? - I might have been singing a couple of mine. - I don't remember any one else doing that that night, other than you, there might have been. But you were the person that I remember being the star attraction, so to speak. - Hm, I'm trying to recall if I remember anyone else playing. - I know there was an opportunity because it wasn't like Mindy, and how would you call, did you use your last name or were you already Mindy Dyke at the time? - I was already Mindy Dyke. - So, as far as you recall, you were the only one and as far as I recall you were the only one who did any music, sharing at that gathering. Did you know, if any others knew those songs and sang along? - No, nobody knew them, nobody knew them. - So musically speaking, did you think Miami had not gotten on the wagon of women's or lesbian music at the time? - Yeah, that's what I thought, because I didn't, even in the conversations amongst the lesbians I didn't really hear them speaking about women's music. I didn't hear like Maryanne and Louise, talking about women's music. No one had really brought it up until I did. I don't, I mean they may have, but I don't remember that. - But not to your awareness, because when you sang some songs and you knew about Olivia and everything. - Oh, absolutely. - And you know Joan was distributing Olivia Records in Miami when she arrived? - No, I didn't. - Joan and I were, she was the distributor, I was her helper so to speak. In San Diego, she got involved with Olivia so when she came to Miami, she continued to do Olivia Records. Now we had a few of them, we had Kay Gardener and you knew of Kay Gardener from... - (in unison) New York. - And you know Alix from the same place, and your knew Olivia. - And I knew of... - Lewis Williamson, Meg Christian at the time, - And Lucy and Martha, because they were on that same album from the New York women. And I was there when they were recording that. - So you were there when Martha and Lucy arrived at the Miami Lesbian Task Force too. - Yeah. - Were you there then before they came back to Miami? - I believe so. - I'm thinking you were too. I believe so, I remember running into them and thinking wow, that's really far out. You know, I didn't even know that they were down here. - My story goes that I was living in San Diego and Joan and I pulled up to Las Hermanas, the woman's coffeehouse. - I was there. Not when we were there. No, no but I have pictures of me there with Meg Christian. - Really? - At Las Hermanas. - But that was much years and years later. - Ah that was... - The '80s then, somewhere in there. - No, no, in the 70s. - No kidding. - I was absolutely there in the 70s, it was the first year that I went to Michigan. It must have been... - '78 or '79, '77? - Maybe '77. Well 1975, in the fall, there was a music festival in San Diego. Hardly anybody knows about Holly nearly wrote about it. But we also had a very close access to LA and we went to meet Ginny Berson and Joan decided to distribute Olivia Records. And so we were doing it all over San Diego. All of a sudden she came to Miami and no one, I agree with you that no one that we connected with in Miami at the time at least knew of Olivia Records, knew of Kay Gardener, we bought Alix Dobkin, and we would play it loud, Joan would play it loud at Joyce's house, when we started living at Joyce's house and she'd just blast, she'd just blast, all over Alix Dobkin's records and she had the one where she changed the cover. So it was probably the first album or something but it wasn't the one that she had to change the cover because- - Yeah. - Woodhul didn't like the dykes on the cover or something? - Yeah. - Look, Living with Women. - Living with Women, yeah. Or is it Living with Lesbians? Did she do Living with Women or Living with Lesbians at the time? I don't know, that's a good question. I think was Living with Women. Or Lavender Jane Loves Women. - Lavender Jane Loves Women. - That's it. - We found it through Ms. magazine in San Diego, San Diego when we're living there. And we ordered it right away. - Yeah, I knew, Alix before the album came out. - Was she out already then too? - Oh yeah. - And how did you meet her? - At the... - Just to backtrack here. - At the, there was a lesbian group that was a spinoff of the Gay Activist Alliance. And it was like the Lesbian Committee of the Gay Activist Alliance. And again, we were not satisfied with being, you know, behind the boys. So we split off from them, and we became LFL, Lesbian Feminist Liberation. And we met in the same place that the boys met, which was at 99 Wooster St. in Soho in old, it was called the firehouse because it was an old firehouse and LFL met there. And I met, Alix through that, and then I started working on the lesbian switchboard. And I would publicize all of her concerts. Anytime anybody called, we had a huge calendar on the wall and we would tell them what was going on for lesbians in New York City. And so I became good friends with her because I was publicizing her concerts. - And did you know Martha and Lucy back then, or just because of the album? - No, I knew them because they used to be there all the time. - So they were there all the time too? - Yeah, and and all the women who sang on that first album of the lesbian collective, yes, were they are all the time. They sang all the time. So when you went to Miami, did you meet any of these lesbian performers or did you, have that, or did you, you were just inspired by them then because you brought music to Miami? - Right, but I knew them all. I knew them all because we met every Sunday, - So you were probably one of the largest influences on I'm bringing live, lesbian music to Miami. - Oh absolutely, or recorded. - Because, - Okay. - They didn't know about the recordings either. - So is that something that you got an opportunity to share in holding gatherings? - Absolutely. - You brought records too, who did you bring? - I brought whatever was out at the time. I had the Chicago and New Haven Women's Liberation Rock Band, the album was already out. Alix's album was already out. The Changer and the Changed, Chris Williamson was already out. Meg Christian, I know You Know was already out, and the New York group of women's collective-- - So you brought all this music to lesbians in Miami? - Oh, yeah, and then, Fran's music and poetry. I brought her books down. - Yeah, I remember getting a book from you. Yeah, You Know Me by My Teeth, I think it was called. Is that what it was, her first book? Her first book was worth Dyke Jacket. - Dyke Jacket, yes. - Yeah. - Yeah, actually, that was her second book. Her first book was-- - You Know Me by My Teeth? Wasn't that one of them? - No. - Okay. - What was it? - I'm thinking of the gal in California. - Okay, Fran's, anyway so you brought some of this art. Yes, the culture of lesbian culture. And if anyone doesn't think that that's political and radical. I don't know what is. Now I'm just going to do a pause to track two. - Aw right. - So when we're getting into the future thoughts here did I say future? - Um hm. - Our future that began in Miami of a different time of our lives. How old were you when you went to Miami, anyway? How old were you? - I had just turned. 22. - Okay, yeah September so you went there. You got the job, did you apply from New York, by the way? - No we just came down, me and my two best friends from x-ray school. We lived with my parents who were already here. And we found jobs. The problem was in New York, there were no jobs. Too many x-ray tech schools let out at the same time and the New York Times was on strike. So between all of that, we had no jobs and we had to move back to the dorm that we were living in because we were no longer students. - Had you been to Miami before? - To visit. - Your parents moved down there. - Right so we came down on on spring break, all of us. - Did you ever discover lesbian culture in that time? - No, not at all. So now you know you're going to be permanently down in Miami, or you didn't know that yet until you've got a job. Did you contact lesbians and NOW, before you got your job? - No, oh, yeah. - In other words did you know you're kind of settled there before you started searching for community, you know what I mean? - Oh no, as soon as I got here I started searching for community because I knew that there were jobs because my father was also an x-ray tech and he used to mail me the Sunday want ads from the Miami Herald. And there wasn't one job or two jobs, there was three columns of jobs, as opposed to no jobs in New York. So when we came down here, we went and applied at different places and people, the hospitals were so interested in us because we trained at a very well-known school. We trained at Cornell University in New York. So they knew we had a good education. And so, we would apply one hospital and then go to the next one and tell them that we were offered a position and how much they were paying. And the next place would up up the price. We'll pay you 20 cents more an hour and we'll pay is 40 cents more an hour. So we went from no jobs to hospitals fighting over us. I mean it was wonderful. So the three of us got jobs in different places. And we did that so that we could meet more people. Now my two roommates were straight. They certainly knew about me and accepted me and love me. But they were straight at the time. One of them is still straight and the other one has been in a lesbian relationship with the same woman for the last 35 years. - She live in Miami? - She lives in my apartment building. That's Connie, right? - Connie and Lynn. Well Lynn is who I went to school with. Connie I also went to school with but that's the straight one that's in New York with twins. - There's two Connies? - There's two Connies. Connie, Lynn's lover of 35 years, so it's also an x-ray tech, and she was the one who was working with Lynn and Patti Jo West. The three of them worked in the same hospital, and my other roommate Connie, was working with that Connie's lover named Lele. And that's when we had the big party. And everybody showed up and all the dyke's you know, got to meet each other and that was another way of meeting lesbians. A whole different group of lesbians. There was a whole different group of lesbians in the medical field, who did not participate in lesbian culture. - So lesbian culture, then how are you, what's that line that you would call lesbian culture and not? Well, define the way they are saying they were not. - Right. - What are they-- - Connie and Lele, really didn't have that many friends and most of them were straight. And in the medical field. And yet they were lesbians, they were a couple, they moved here from, they moved to Miami from Michigan together. And they wound up breaking up, and Connie and Lynn got together and they've been together for 35 years. - So define that difference that you're saying, so, did you feel that the Lesbian Task Force and NOW, that group of lesbians were, what, more political or? - Absolutely. - How would you define that, the difference. Just by feeling comfortable around lesbians. Being dykes, being strong Amazons, having read or now heard women's music, being introduced to lesbian literature, Naiad press. - Were you involved with NOW or was it the Task Force that drew you? - Oh, it was the Task Force. I wasn't a nowee-wowee. - A nowee-wowee, why? - Why, because I didn't feel I had that much in common with straight women, even though I was living with two of them. But that's because we had a different thing, in common, we had the x-ray thing in common. We lived together for two years in New York in the dorm and they loved me and accepted me. So that was different. - So you figured there was, and you've met, a whole group of lesbians, that revolved in your field in your work. - Yeah! - And you figured this was a less, what was that word, you used? A less what crowd than the Lesbian Task Force crowd? - They certainly were less aware of any lesbian movement. - Are you including feminism in this, somehow? - Yeah, they weren't really involved in any kind of women's or gay or lesbian movement. - Oh, any of them, okay. - The medical crowd that were gay and lesbians certainly knew of each other, certainly acknowledged each other, maybe went to the bars together once in awhile, maybe partied with each other but certainly not in any kind of lesbian-feminist thought awareness. - Okay. - It was much more of the x-ray connection. - But it's also, but you also created spaces that you were all together. So you were still making connections and community in some ways too, right? - Right. - And is that not again, not a political action of some sort? Oh sure, but I tried to intermingle. - Oh, you did? - Oh I did, I, you know, having Patti Jo in both places. You know, being on both sides, being in the x-ray lesbian side and being in the circle of dykes that I was hanging out with. That opened it up more. My roommates were hanging out with the lesbians, because the lesbians would come to the house and hang out. And so, you know, they felt very comfortable with them because they felt very comfortable with me and they're very open-minded women. - So besides this week of Lesbian Pride, Dyke Pride and what's called Dyke Pride Week or Lesbian Pride whatever it was. And after that, what I recall is that there was a dance once a month. - Um hm. - And it was organized by the Task Force. - Um hm. - Now somewhere in these months, you met certain ones. You were talking to Sandra Redwood in a story about Sandra Redwood. Was that in the earlier months or was that later, later too? - Probably later, I think Sandra Redwood was part of that but it was-- - She was a part of when I met the Task Force. - But I was specifically talking about we had gone over, either to Maryanne and Louise's or to Mary Sims house. - So Maryanne and Louise, and Mary Sims, as far as I'm aware they both open their homes, so that if I wanted to go to a music night, I could walk into Maryanne and Louise's house, and there was a whole slew of lesbians sitting there playing anything from pots and pans to guitars and flutes. Is this true? Do you have that, the memories? - Oh, absolutely. - And did they do that more than one time? - Oh, all the time, you never knew who was going to be there. - But they always had their home open. - Yes, and Lynne Blustein too, which was a whole other group of lesbians. That was a little bit later. Okay that was more like in the late, late '70s or early 80s. But that was, but I remember Maryanne and Louise being there at Lynne Blustein's house and Patti Jo for sure, being at Blustein's. - I think you took me there and it was before I met Barbara, so it must have been somewhere in '78. - Um hm. - So Morgana moved up to Pagoda, somewhere in there too. - Right. - And then I remember you coming over to my apartment, and we were singing and I had the apartment because that was after I moved away from Joyce's. - Tenant? - In her yard, and there's a lot of other things probably in here, and Sandra Redwood was someone that I was hanging out with a little bit with Joan. She was showing Joan and I how to harvest coconuts and Mary Sims was telling us how to pick up cans in the park or bottles to make a little extra money on the side because we were not working at the time. - Right. - And so, they both were helping us survive even down in Homesteads. Helise lived there and there was this beautiful coconut tree out in front of Helise's house and she said come on down, help me move some books and records and stuff and she had records. And she had records, I don't know, did you remember if she was aware of some of the lesbian and women's music that you were? - Oh, absolutely. - Really, and did you know her through the Task Force? - I believe that she and I met in New York, in upstate New York. - Really? - Right around Woodstock, I think. - So did she come and migrate to Miami too or... - Yes. - Ooh. - And I just spent time with her, right before we came here, going through some of her records. - No way. - Yeah, so they were old ones too, like-- - Yes. Like you knew and so you had. - Yes. - Did you ever know that at the time that you had this in common, when you met? I think Helise was there the night that we met you and Joan. - I think so too. - And I think Helise played some music on that guitar. - You may be correct, and she might've had her own. - Yes. - She had her own guitar and she had had her own songs she wrote. - Yes. - Oh, you think she was there that, you know, - I do. - That's very strongly possible, I'll check in with her about it too. I will check in with her about it, wow. - I just spent time with her. - Getting rid of those records, so she had some of the older records too. - Yeah. - Wow, wow, huh, your collections were similar. - Yeah. - She trying to go through stuff I know now isn't she? - Yeah. - Hard job, she has Susan's stuff, and she's got Sherry Cooper's stuff and she's got her own stuff. And she's considering moving out West, to Arizona, New Mexico. - Yeah, she's thinking about that. - She's trying to get rid of it, because she's got stuff in different rental warehouses. She's got like three different ones, yeah. - Alrighty, so we're at the Task Force, and then there was some point in time that this co-group that Joan and I met. Morgan, Morgan, not Morgana. Morgan, Una, Justine and they were all staying in Joyce's house. - Right. - And they were all from up in the northeast, but they, and through somehow, and I think Louise Griffin was on one side of the road. Louise Caseon was on another side of the road, and being in the medical profession, there were several in the medical profession, Ingrid was another one. And they all seem like very powerful lesbians in the Task Force. However, there was a split that happened. Do you remember that? Do you remember there was a split in the lesbian Task Force? - No. - Yeah, one of the reasons was that to be in the Task Force you now had to become a member of NOW. And some of the lesbians, like the ones I just mentioned were resisting being members of NOW, and yet some of them already were members of NOW and they were not resisting it at all. They figured well, we're members of NOW and we have a Lesbian Task Force. But nothing like that came up to you? - I don't ever remember that. - Okay. - It might have happened. - It did happen, yeah. - I don't, I think I was probably a member of NOW. - Did you split from my Miami, at some point in time and then come back? - I did. - Was that earlier on then? ??? Years perhaps or no, later? - I left for less than one year. In at the end of 1978, and in the winter of '78 I was in New York. I moved back to New York and I moved back to Miami in the fall. - Okay. - So before this time, when I had my apartment, you came over one time and you asked me, well, there were two things that I remember, adventures with you. Wanna go see Donna Summer? Let's smoke a doobie and go on up to see Donna Summer. Which was Donna Summer, and all that music was happening in particularly at Sebastian's. - Right. - And many of us to go to Sebastian's and dance to disco. - Yes. - And disco and Donna Summer we're synonymous, hot, hot. - Yes, then another time you came and said, there's this place called Pagoda. - Um hm. - And how did you hear about Pagoda? And what was that year. Do you remember that year, you were going to tell me to see, we're going to go up to see Berkeley Women's Music Collective. We're going to see the opening of Pagoda, I believe it was the first time there was any performance. We saw Morgana do belly dancing. You wore balloons. You wore balloons. We saw Flash and Pandora. We saw the Berkeley Women's Music Collective. Those were the particular highlights that I remember. - I think Flash called me and told me about it. - Flash called you? - I was very, very good friends with Flash and Pan, in New York And I think Flash called me to tell about it. - So you stayed connected as you both all moved to Flo-- - Oh yeah, we're still all connected. - Yeah, I know that's right. - Oh, yeah, and especially now with Facebook. I mean, we Facebook each other, at least once a week. But yeah, so Flash and I are connected in really special ways.. - So it wasn't through Morgana, and that whole experience that you knew that she had started or was part of the founding of Pagoda. It was Flash that got you up to Pagoda. - I don't think so. - And it would be you Deanna, Ramona and me, the four of us and I think it was wasn't my car I didn't have none. - No, it was my car. - Was it your car? - We all drove up, stayed at the motel and had a marvelous experience at this place called Pagoda, the theater, and there was all this music-making. - Yes. - Wonderful. - Yes, I still have pictures of that. - I have the couple pictures on the beach, do you have others in that? - Yeah, I think i have pictures of the Berkeley Women's Music Collective - Oh wow. - And I'd heard them in Michigan. - See, I heard them at that, I was talking about the San Diego Music Festival, years ago, in the fall of '75 that's, they were there. They were there too, with many of the other performers but that was amazing, and it was amazing to see Flash and Pandora they were just amazing musicians and powerful, Flash was, powerful, powerful singer. And it was just amazing. You are just delighted to share this, as well and, you know, hearing the music and everything else and being at Pagoda. And I think you and I went up several times or at least one of them that I remember. - Oh, I remember going up with Nancy and Barb, and you and me. - When we did our performances at Pagoda and being upstairs in that loft and having to climb down the ladder to go to the bathroom and Barb said, "Can't we just pee out the window." (chuckles) - Yeah, but you took me there one other time to see Linda Shear too, whom I'd known from Chicago. And you knew Linda Shear from where? - Michigan. - From Michigan, too. - Her lover, Trina was a sign-language interpreter. - Ahhh, and the connection there too came. - Yeah. - For you. - Yeah. So you kept connection with Pagoda, how? Because I didn't have that connection to know Linda Shear was going to be there. How did you stay connected to Pagoda? - Probably Morgan. - Through Morgan, yeah, okay, yeah. So, Michigan, you went up in '78, I know that. - Yeah, I, my first one I'm pretty sure was '70 either '76 or '77. - And were you were there for the first? - I think so that's why I think it was '76. And I think it was the first, it was on the old land for sure. - So it's was the '78 one, '78 was on the old land. But yeah, you had been there before. - Yeah, - '78 because you tell a story-- - I had been to the old land for at least three festivals. Because I remember three different things happening. - Well there's a story that you tell about a woman that's passed away. Did she pass away in Miami? - It was my friends, grandmother. - A grandmother, passed away in Miami? - No, in New Mexico. My friend, who used to live in New York, moved to New Mexico. Her grandmother passed away. And she wanted to bury her on women's space. And so she put her in a blue wooden box on top of her truck and drove her to Michigan. And when I found my friends in Michigan, at the festival, she told me that her grandmother had passed and I remember her telling me stories about her grandmother for years. And she said were going have a little ceremony, you know, to bury her. And so I thought, you know she had the ashes or something. And she said we're going to meet at this particular spot at midnight. And would you be part of the ceremony? And I was honored, of course, sure. Well, as I started getting closer and closer something started smelling worse and worse. And when I got there, I said oh my god, what is that smell. And she said oh that's Granny. I said, What do you mean it's Granny? I said, you didn't bring your dead grandmother here, like in one piece did you, she said, "Yeah, on top of the truck." I said, oh Sue, Oh my goodness, I mean you can smell it for miles. And we did, we buried her grandmother. - It didn't bother you though, did it, that that was the case? - Well, it didn't bother me that we were doing it. But the smell bothered me. But nothing else bothered me about it. - So, yeah, I mean you have some amazing stories in your whole life and in Miami. What, is there any highlights in those days of '70s and '80s? - Oh absolutely, the day, that Sandy McFarlane , the night that Sandy McFarlane , had a flat tire on her Volkswagen on 17th Avenue and 69th Street in the heart of Liberty City. And there were at least five cars making a dyke caravan, and none of us had a jack. - Five cars and no jack, wow. - Five cars, no jack, lots of dykes. Lots of spare tires but no jack. And so, we all pulled over, got out of our cars and held up the back end of the woman's Volkswagen in mid-air. until she changed the tire. Because she had a tire iron. She just didn't have the jack to pump it up with. And we stood there in the middle of the street and cops were going by, just like screeching to look by didn't stop to help, they just would stop and look and keep going. But that had to be one of the funniest things that and we decided we were really hot one Sunday. And we wanted to go swimming. So, Maryanne and Louise knew of this entrance to Miller Lake, before Tropical Park was ever built. Miller Lake, went from Miller Drive to Bird Rd. And there was this man-made lake. And so, we all drove over there, parked our cars, took off our clothes, and we're jumping into the lake. And there must have been 15 naked dykes in the water when the police showed up. And they're like, You ladies are going to have to get out of that lake. And we're like, we're not getting out until you leave, we'll leave. But we're not coming out of this water until you go, oh god it was so funny. We laughed, for hours and days about when we got caught in Miller Lake. And then another time. I don't know what we were looking for me and Maryanne and Louise were driving on Bird Rd., like in around Galloway and 87th Avenue or something I don't remember what we were out there looking for. But we pulled into this strip mall. And there was a Jamaican restaurant there, that's not where we were going, though. And in the window, there was a sign that said We sell Jamaican Moon Pies. And Louise said to me, "What's a Jamaican Moon Pie." And I said, I don't know. But it was broad daylight, I pulled my pants down and I said, but this is a Jewish moon pie. And she laughed till the day she died. Even when she was dying, literally I said. - You want to hear that story? - You wanna see a Jewish moon pie, Louise? - Oh, you showed her your Jewish moon pie. - I showed her your Jewish moon pie. - Aww, my god. - May she rest in peace, she did get to see my Jewish moon pie. And I must say that Louise's passing was another event that was so devastating. But yet, so incredibly lesbian. There were, sometimes in her room, 30 - 40 lesbians in this hospice nursing center. And she was never alone as she was transitioning and she knew we were there. And Maryanne felt like she could go home and get some sleep because she knew Louise wouldn't be alone. Yeah, you know, we took turns in shifts, Maryanne, on my end, myself and another friend of ours, Amal. We were just all there, all the time. - Do you recall when Maryanne and Louise decided to open Something Special? - I do. - Yeah? - Yes, I do. - What was the circumstances around that? - It was just about the same time that I was trying to open Bagelgrams. - Oh, really? - And Eli was opening up a new Zum Alten Fritz. So all of us were involved in these new adventures - Was that before or after Charlotte being involved in the Women's Preservation Society. Do you remember that? - Yes. - So this was, Something Special came after the Women's Preservation Society. - Yes, yes, and I went to them to ask them about do I report this to the taxes or you know how to how they do it, what should I do. What about licenses. - This is for your business? - For my business because they had just started Something Special. And they were open for lunch. I remember, on Wednesdays, and Thursdays or something. And I was taking some classes at Miami Dade North and I would leave there and come over and have lunch with them. They would fix me a big ole salad. And they stopped doing that but they would do, they were doing that and take out orders, at that time. So that had to be... Ah, God I don't even remember. I was working 11 to seven. - I think I have that written down somewhere about when they started Something. - I was working, I know I was working 11 to seven, because I would get off work, and drive up to Miami Dade and take that class and then stop back there, eat lunch and go home and go to sleep. And I don't remember where I was working. - How about the Bizarres? Oh yes, the Bizarres, they were fun. We would just set up in the backyard of Something Special. Tables and racks and you could buy anything, exchange anything from sheets to close to crafts. I remember Lilly doing massages. - Oh yeah. - Lilly was doing the massages - And her massage chair. oh they were fun, they were fun times. - Yeah, a sackful of those. - Yeah. - Yeah and then I had that moment I was thinking about Charlotte doing this Women's Preservation Society and I forget which, somewhere near Bird Rd. - Yes, it was off Bird Rd. - And Charlotte came into your life too early on. I recall you being with Charlotte, somewhat. I don't know how exactly, and how-- - I met Charlotte. - She came to the Task Force too, she was involved? - Yes, she came to the Task Force. And we started talking. And then we exchanged phone numbers, and I remember our first sort of date. We had gone bike riding or something. And I hurt my ankle. And she came over the next day to see how I was doing, she came over to my apartment. I was living with Connie and Lynne. And she had biked over and wound up making love that day, and we were together for about three years. - Oh. - And that was interesting times, to say the least. - She had a whole other perspective too when she named this group Women's Preservation Society. What I think, I remember about that, is that what she wanted to do again was create a community space. - Right. - For lesbians to have meetings, and to do display their arts, their crafts and have music-making and so on. Do you remember anything else about the Women's Preservation Society, because it didn't last very long. And that was always something that Louise would say, and I don't think, I don't know if it came before or after the Friday night, women's group. I think it came after Friday night women's group, but I'm not sure. - I think it came after Friday night women's group - But every time Louise would say something like, something ended, something else began, something ended and something else. Because the Task Force itself, I don't recall it lasting very long, and when the split happened. I remember Mary, we going over to Mary Sims and doing, arts and crafts, still continuing to do some music-making at Louise and Maryanne's or somewhere else. I think Sandra McFarlane house was also a place of lesbian activity. - Yeah, she lived up the hill by the Orange Bowl, - Somewhere in there, yeah, yeah. So I think some of the shifts always took place and then it was hard to know where to connect with lesbians again but softball also was a place. - Yeah, down by Ruby Grove they called it, Grooby Grove. And one of the lesbians I met at Women Writes, Deb, Debbie, can't recall her last name at the moment, but she ended up knowing, Patti Jo. - Debbie DeMars? - No it wasn't Debbie DeMar. I'd have to look her name up but she was a softball player. Butch as can be, just a young, young guy-looking softball player and she thought softball was maybe not as political and organizing is radical. However, I tend to think that-- - You're not thinking of Diane Shepherd? - No, I'm thinking of a Debbie, Debbie. I'll get you a picture out later to see you know who she was. She couldn't remember you, but she remembered Patty Jo very well because Patty Joe organized a lot of the baseball. - Oh, her and Carol Cotton. - Yeah, and not only around the area of Coral Gables but also up in, when she moved up towards Fort Lauderdale way. So I'm seeing about, maybe I'll do it one more time. So, it seems that Patti Jo was also a shaker and mover. - Oh yeah, but definitely around the softball courts. - And you remember Blackies. - Oh, absolutely. - But you remember Sebastian's, remember Tops. - Oh yeah. - The Nook, did that close after a while? - Yeah I recall, and was there anything, what do you remember about Blackies specifically? - Well, 'cause you I were there, we'd go to Blackies. - She had a couple of different places. - The first one, upstairs. - Right, on Coral Way. - Right, well she, she was also involved in the Cherry Grove. - Ahhh! - She was a bartender there. - So downstairs, that was downstairs. - Yeah, on 17th, on 17th Avenue, across from way you used to live. - I know about what you're talking about now, yeah. - And then she opened up the place with the upstairs. And then when that closed, she moved it to off of, it was on Southwest Eighth Street. A little bit south of Lejeune. - Yeah, I went to a wedding there. Now I remember that you performed at Blackies, the little one upstairs. And you sang, you brought your guitar. And again, you were singing songs. And I don't know if it was a special evening I don't recall how that was put together. But I remember that Blackies was first bar I knew that that played women's lesbian music on the jukebox. - Yeah because Tops wasn't doing it. - No, Josh wasn't doing it. Tops was strictly for let's go dancing. - I remember that freaky looking clown like at Tops. That's what I remember most about Tops, was that they had this clown-like that was just scary looking. It was a lamp. How about Lou's Back Door. - Oh my god, yes, Lou's Back Door, - And were you around for that time when Louise? It was some incident that happened, based on race and lesbian, Louise being a black woman, lesbian being up there, and something about that. I don't recall the details, but I remember several of us saying well we weren't going back to Lou's after that. Remember anything about that? That plot's starting to sound familiar because I remember not going there anymore. Yeah, we all some of us stopped going there, because-- - And that would certainly not surprise me because racism really wasn't tolerated by any of us. Do you remember any other incidences about that with lesbians specifically, that occurred that you are aware of? - In Miami? - Um hum. - Around the lesbians that we knew? I mean, you remember, Mary Sims getting arrested? She was driving down the road with Judy. - No. - She had an arrest tacked onto her and Louise got in jail for carrying a pocket knife. - Yeah, I remember Louise. Yes, I remember that. - What do you remember about that? - Oh, gee. - But you remember it happening? - Yeah, I do. - But you don't remember the details, the details are kind of-- - But I don't remember Mary Sims and Judy getting into something. - Yeah, I don't know if it was just Mary or Judy went to jail too, I'm not sure. - Well I remember Judy going to jail but it wasn't for that. - Yeah, I heard about that later on (laughs). Okay, so what else could come to your mind and if you want to just let this rest. There's a lot here and we can elaborate and share as we go along. As I kind of put this together some other things might come up and you say, hey add this, or whatever, you know, or call me and say hey this is-- - Yeah, I'm trying to think if there any-- - Highlights that brought me into a sense of politics and political connection that you felt were building your self-esteem as a lesbian. - Well certainly, Anita Bryant. - Ah, say more about that. cause I don't know anything about-- - Anita Bryant cannot be left out. - Tell me, what time period was that? Seven, eighties, wasn't it? - No, it was, it was in '78, I think. - Okay, that would make sense. - And that was when we were trying to get the legislation passed in Dade County to, what did we call it, it will come to me. - Yeah, but how did you get involved? - Charlotte and I were still together. - Okay. - And a lot of the lesbians within the Task Force, Scabby. - Scabby! Oh, wow. - And Mary Beth. - Yeah. - Etta Cemino. - Etta. Oh wow. - Yeah. - Charlotte, myself, Marianne, Louise, a bunch of us worked on the phone banks, calling up registered Democrats. And as has been, explaining-- - But how did you get the ball rolling these phone banks, how did that all get formed. Do you have any thoughts, knowing about that. You just heard about it and you went over? - Yeah, Jack Campbell, who was the owner of the gay man's baths, was also running for city council, okay. And he organized a lot of it. And he had a lot of the money. - Okay. - And paid for a lot of the phone banks that were set up. Mostly, there was a gay men's like hotel on Biscayne Boulevard and in the 50s. I think it was 5500 Biscayne or something like that. And that's where one of the phone banks was. And we would go out there at night and called registered democrats and explain the referendum to them. Because if you voted no, you were voting yes and if you were voting against the gays you voted no, it was a horrible referendum. But I remember Charlotte and I following a car that was putting up posters, against the gay people. And we were like one block behind them and as they would put it up, we would pull it down. (laughing) And every single one that they put up, We pulled down until they figured it out. And then they started chasing us. Oh, we were really scared that night that we were going to get killed. - Um, um, um. - Because they, it took them a long time to figure it out and then when they did they figured out that everything that they had just done for the last three hours was in the back of our car. But you'd be sitting in a traffic jam, like at five o'clock going home from work, which was bumper to bumper and you could be on A36 or an hour trying to get home from work. And the person in front of you would be the person who was in front of you for an hour with a bumper sticker that would say, kill a queer for Christ, or the only good gay is a dead gay, and you'd be sitting behind them for a fuckin' hour? It was insane. And that was a very hot political time yeah. It was when I was working at Jackson for sure, positively, and remember, we were talking yesterday I think about, oh no, this morning. You were resting and Beth and Robin and I were talking about having a little powwow with people at work. When you just needed that extra bit of support from people who understood you. Robin was saying that there was a Jewish group of women that would powwow with each other when they needed that support from each other. While I was working at Jackson and all of the gay x-ray techs would go into this little tiny bathroom. And we would have like a gay hug. And then we would come out and go and do more work and then somebody else would say, Okay, time for the gays to hit the bathroom again. We'd all go in and hug each other. The faggots and the dykes, it didn't matter, We just would go in and and hug each other and come out. - Wow. And some needed. Yeah. Because the political climate, everywhere, it was everywhere. The doctors were talking about it. The patients were talking about it. Everybody, it was all over the news. It was really a very hot climate in New York. - In New York and Miami. - In Miami, about that. And the night of the vote, I was at the Fontainebleau Hotel, waiting for the vote to come in. And I was there by myself. I was sitting at a table. And on the table was a platter of olives and pickles and, and those kinds of things. And this reporter came up to me and he stuck his microphone in my face. And he said, "And what do you think about this," and I grabbed a pickle, and I shoved it in his face and said, and what do you think about this? And the cameraman, got it. And the next day I remember going to work, and one of the radiologists, one of the doctors came up to me. She's still a friend of mine and I just spent time with her these holidays with her. And she was married to a cardiologist, who also worked at Jackson, and she said Mindy, you know what happened last night? I was sound asleep. And my husband woke me up, he said "Margie, Margie, look at the TV", and I opened my eyes and there you were. On television sticking a pickle in some man's face. And my husband said "Isn't that Mindy?" And there you were. Why were you on TV sticking a pickle in some man's face? And I said, Well Dr. Sanders, if they fire me, you know why. And I told her, you know, I was there against Anita Bryant and she said, Oh Mindy, they love you too much here. They're not gonna fire you over anything. And to this day, we are still friends, I worked with her somewhere else. After that, many years after that. And we're still very, very dear friends. - So how did you feel then when that film came out? - Oh I was devastated. - Yeah. - I was just devastated, I felt like, how can these people buy this crock of crap from, you know, and who the fuck was Anita Bryant. And we boycotted, woman-cotted Florida orange juice. She lost her job. - Oh yeah. - She lost the endorsement. - Yes. - And you couldn't get orange juice in a gay bar in Miami for years. - Yeah. - For years, forget about ordering a screwdriver or any drink that contained orange juice and there was signs everywhere in every gay bar. Men's bars, women's bars, bike bars, dyke bars. It didn't matter with orange, and the no sign, the international no sign, no oranges. And a lot of people did not know that Florence Henderson was almost as much involved with that as Anita Bryant, but her name was not out there. And she was in that television show, The Brady Bunch, and her co-actor, her husband in that show was actually gay and wound up dying of AIDS. And she basically had this change of heart and started, you know trying to support AIDS movements and stuff. But that was way after she was right alongside Anita Bryant, trying to kick us into the ground. - Um um um. - So I've never been Florence Henderson fan either. - I don't remember that because Brady Bunch was a little after, wow. - Wow. But yeah, you can't talk about Miami and any kind--