Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I talked to him about career in printing, and that was my motivation for going into it. Paul Ortiz: So, what role did the Journal and Guide play? Other than the fact, I mean, obviously, I mean, it was one way for you to make money. Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah, yeah. Paul Ortiz: Did it begin to shape your outlook on life? What would you read it as you were delivering this stuff? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah. Well, I don't—See, I suppose that it was almost like a substitute kind of thing, something. I try and search for a career. I guess the other thing that actually worked out with me that that was doing something with your hands, and I seemed to enjoy doing things in that manner. Well, I hate to put it like this, but I guess it was getting away from going to be a doctor. I just didn't—That didn't appeal to me, and the architect part would've probably been a good occupation, but I guess print was like a compromise. Paul Ortiz: What did your father have to say about it? What was he— Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: He sort of, as he did in the case of my brothers, he sort of left it up to me. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I thanked my aunt, who was a person that financed my education until I decided I would work and take care of myself. After about two years, I told her that she could concentrate on my brother, that I would— Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: [INTERRUPTION 00:03:19 - 00:09:06]. Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Actually mechanical then—I was doing the press work, and we had some opportunities to do a little writing for the newspaper, and also being able to put it together in a good form and pattern and make it attractive, and I did write a little column, and also we sold some advertisements, things like that. So, it was something in addition to the actual mechanical then. It gave you some leeway to learn something about newspaper publishing and this kind of thing. So, I found it very interesting. Paul Ortiz: You were actually doing a column? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah, I did a column, but just a small column, it wasn't much. I was writing for just a small column for the newspaper. Paul Ortiz: What was the column about? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: It was just some personal experiences and this type of thing. I didn't consider myself a experienced writer or anything like that, but maybe four or five inches is some of the brief experience to something I had, and in fact, I remember one column that I wrote on about a visit that I made to homecoming at Hampton. Something like that. Paul Ortiz: Mr. White, what would you say that the philosophy of the Tribune was during those years? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: It was the editorials and things was very good in terms of attacked and discrimination and this type of thing, and it was trying to cover the type of news that showed the Black community in the good light, and also really a historical type of thing, and the editor, the paper publisher, [indistinct 00:11:47] and tell your name to him, he was a very well trained person who knew how to write and express himself and this kind of thing. And tacting the problems that faced the Black community, and also encouraging those in the community to do their best to make it. Yeah. Paul Ortiz: When did you meet your other eventual partner at the service? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Not the one that sent for me, the one that—Oh, you talking about Walter Swann. He came over to Raleigh, and I can't really now think of what his circumstance was, but he used to work for the Carolina Times, the newspaper in Durham, and he came over to Raleigh, I guess, to get a job, and we worked together for a while there. So, that's the three of us that were—My brother was the fourth partner, was still in school then, he didn't finish until 1940, and by that time we were in Durham. Paul Ortiz: I see. But, when you were still in Raleigh, did you plan initially to, or did you have aspirations at this time, to eventually open a printing shop, or was it something that you just began talking about with? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, it was a very interesting thing. The owner of the Carolina Tribune spoke about retiring, and that didn't seem to appeal to me that this man was getting ready to retire, and I didn't think about, as I look back on it, I didn't think about that that would be an opportunity to own the newspaper or something like that. But, I just thought about working and taking care of this man and his retirement. Now, that's just a young guy's thoughts running through your mind. That didn't appeal to me. So, I told him that I was going to leave, and when I told him that I was going to leave, he talked to Reed, the fellow who sent for me, and was telling him what a bad fella I was, and this kind of thing, and so Reed said, "Well, I know him and he doesn't seem to be that kind of fella." So, he told him he was leaving too. Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Now, this fellow that came over there from Durham knew about the Service Printing Company, and he told us about the opportunity that we had to manage this company— Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: [INTERRUPTION 00:15:25-00:20:35] Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: —About the fact that he may have been saying that he's going to sell us the newspaper. Is it? Is that— Paul Ortiz: Always. Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah. But, that didn't been a conversation. So, that wasn't a decision to make— Paul Ortiz: —he had that he might sell you the newspaper? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: No, he didn't. That— Paul Ortiz: Okay. Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I made a little talk at his funeral, and I don't know whether I expressed that or not, I may have, but I expressed the fact that something I was complimentary to him and all, and I guess the thought came to me, "Was this guy saying that he was retiring and going to give us the opportunity to own the paper or not?" But, that didn't ever come up in the discussion. But, I wonder what would've been my career or what it would've been like if I had looked at it from that point of view. But, that was just one of those things, and it also gives me a thought that you always think that great big things are things that influence your life sometime, and sometimes they are very small things that make a difference, between you living in one town or another, or getting one trade or something else like that, and that was the case at that time, and that's just the way I thought, and that was the result that I was leaving, and so everything worked out all right, I think. Paul Ortiz: So, when you came to Durham to manage and then eventually to own the Service Printing Company, what was Black business like? Now was Service Printing Company, was that in the Hayti? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: In the Hayti area, yeah. Paul Ortiz: Were there other Black entrepreneurs that you could work with? Did you have an organization or? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh yeah. Outstanding city for Black businesses. It has really, for its size, it's one of the leading cities in the country for African American entrepreneurs, and that was readily visible when we came to Durham. It was altogether different from Raleigh, I think. In fact, The Mechanics and Farmers Bank, which was based in Durham, had a branch in Raleigh and still has a branch, and of course they had a newspaper, had a savings and a loan association, had a fire insurance company, banker's fire insurance company, and the whole atmosphere of business was different, and to some extent it's still like that. The accomplishments of African American businesses is it's just outstanding, I think. I think probably it grew out of the fraternal organizations that were based in this city, and the idea of taking care of each other, really it is outstanding, and so when we came at a time that, in 1939, it was very visible and it proved to be a good choice for us to make, and we had what we considered a very successful career operating in Durham. Paul Ortiz: You mentioned the fraternal organizations. Did you become involved at this time in fraternal organizations? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, I joined the Masons at one time, and what actually happened, I became a scoutmaster in 1942, and they met on the same night as my scout troop. I set my scout meeting on Mondays because, in my trade, our business, you have another day to take care of anything that you had to plan. But, if you—Normally, I would've met on Friday nights, that's better for the boys, but then I would find myself canceling the meeting or postponing or having it another day, and this kind of thing. So, I sacrificed the membership in the Masons to work with the Boy Scout, which I don't regret. I'm glad I did because I think I probably had an opportunity to make contribution that I would not have to make if I did not assume that position, and I was really always the sort to give something back based on what the benefits that had been given me as you. Paul Ortiz: I see. And Mr. White, you mentioned the fraternal organizations. What kind of a difference did they make in terms of African American [indistinct 00:28:05]? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: See, as the person coming in and observing, if you looked at—If you probably get a picture of Fayetteville Street as it stood before the freeway came through, you see these multistory buildings and all on Fayetteville Street, there were about four of them that were built by lodges and troops in this neighborhood, and I think out of that the North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company was organized in almost a 100 years ago, 1898. The bank was organized in 1910, a few years they organized— Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I think the idea of doing things to take care of each other sort of took hold here, and you got some remarkable achievements. You see that North Carolina Mutual building downtown, and at one time, I suppose it might be still so true that it was the largest business in the world that we had. That was right here in Durham, a relatively small community, and it's a tremendous demonstration of what can be done and what was done in this city to show the possibilities of working together and working for the benefit of each other. Paul Ortiz: Mr. White, were you—I think, that Mr. Bryant mentioned that both of you were active in a number of different organizations— Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Right. Paul Ortiz: —community organizations. What were some of those organizations and what do you do? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, we work—First of all, we were members of the same church and we were working together, and still, we were members of the Durham Business & Professional Chain, and the Durham Business & Professional Chain was organized by JJ Henderson, who also was a Hampton graduate. Those organizations not only worked for the benefit of people all running businesses, but it worked in the general overall community, and the Durham Committee on the Affairs of Black People. So, that's were some of the instances where we were working together. Paul Ortiz: Now, the Durham Committee on the Affairs of Black People, were you—Now, I'm trying to remember what Mr. Bryant told me about that. What, that group had different committees? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yes, subcommittees. Yeah. Paul Ortiz: Subcommittees. Subcommittees. What particular subcommittees did you work on? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I worked on the economic subcommittee, the economic development, I think they would maybe call. But, at the time, I was working, I'm not sure the exact name on it. But anyway, I worked on that committee. I also—Floyd McKissick, I saw his help assistants who worked with me and we were co-chairs of the committee, and now all the committees have co-chairs, and so it was in that committee gave you an opportunity working in your own business, and also give you an opportunity to serve your community with whatever talents you might present to assist in uplifting other community. Paul Ortiz: And you began working with the Durham Committee in the forties or? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yes, shortly after I came here. Yeah, we came in '39 and the Durham—Let me see. Durham Business & Professional Chain was organized in 1938. Now, the Durham Committee was organized before that, but shortly after I came here, I started working with the committee. Paul Ortiz: Well, Mr. White, what were some of the—With all of the different groups and committees, did the groups have different visions of what the Black community should be like in Durham? Were there— Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I think they were fairly well unified on what visions they had for the community. But, everything changes somewhat from time to time. Well, you have problems and you solve problems, then you move to other problems, and just keep working. Of course, one of the key problems was voting and electing, trying to get African-American representatives, people in office to—Well, actually, it's just in a democracy, if you're going to participate, you need to get out and vote and run for office and this kind of thing. So, it's a matter of doing what any citizen should do is to contribute in your way with your talents and other means to make your city better, and make it better for you as citizens in the community. Paul Ortiz: Mr. White, how did you and the committee go about approaching voting issues in the thirties? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, I guess, your first task was to be able to vote. That's a effort. There are all kinds of means and ways of denying to vote to Black citizens. There's a grandfather clause, and there were you not a whole citizens, and then I remember going to the poll to vote and there was a registrar reading out of a book, and I think if they didn't have that book, they might not be able to tell me the answers to the questions that they're asking me. That thing was also clear to me, and you have to—But instead of welcoming you to come in to fulfill your citizenship duties, this was a method to try to keep you from voting, and that thought sure came to my mind when I was looking at that. "Suppose they didn't have that book, could they answer that question?" But anyway, it was a fight to vote. Paul Ortiz: When did you first try to vote? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Shortly after I came to Durham. Yeah. Paul Ortiz: Was there already an organized effort within the Black community? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh yeah. But, you see, that was interesting. One that another thing was interesting that we didn't have precincts in your community. We went downtown to the courthouse to register. Then later on they had different precincts around, you know? Paul Ortiz: Were all the registrars in those days White? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh yeah. Paul Ortiz: What were some of the things that they would do to obstruct you from exercising your voting rights? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, as I say, when you're registered, they would ask you questions about the constitution and this kind of thing. Of course would they—If you had reasonable knowledge about things, they couldn't deny you that, but there was a strong effort just to try to prevent you from voting. So, the Durham Committee helped organize the community and organize people and encourage them to register to vote. Paul Ortiz: Then how would the committee go about doing that? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: They would do that in their meetings, they would do that in public meetings, get out the vote campaigns. When they had the precinct, they would organize people into going into the door to door basis, and then later on they got registrars that they registered people to vote. So, it was a kind of growing type of thing. Then they had a—I remember when they had elected the first person to the city council, R.N. Harris, and it's been growing ever since. Paul Ortiz: Were churches involved in this campaign? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I think the committee used the churches and then they used—Also, they had announcements made in the churches to call attention to registration and voting. Then they'd have rallies, mass rallies, where they had speakers to speak to and try to encourage people to vote. Paul Ortiz: When did that start, the rallies? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Oh, that's been going for some time. It started before I came here. I know I don't—I can't say it's—I don't know exactly precise time, but you know that now, after the Civil War, it seemed that they had a period of participation by The Freedmen, and it seemed like along near the turn of the century, they had a reversal. So, Mr. Scarborough, the undertaker here, we used to have what we call the One o'clock Luncheon Club. He used to talk about that period where they had postmasters and Black postmasters, and I guess that's a part of the thing that you all are looking at, aren't you? Paul Ortiz: Yes, sir. Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: That he talked about how—He made some interesting statements. I don't personally have that much knowledge about it, of course, but I imagine that's a interesting period to look at. Then they had a reversal of things with the Plessy vs. Ferguson decision. They had segregation and all, and that in other words, you had to open it up, and then shut down. For me, born in 1914, I had a whole period where things were closed off, because like you mentioned earlier about the buses and street cars and things. Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: So, we may not still have caught up to the fullest extent when you hear people talk and you hear politicians talk, and I think that that segregation gave people a misconception about what should be happening and what is happening, and attitudes of not just segregated but inferior type situation. I mean, you have, say, people like George Washington Carver, Frederick Douglass, and Booker T. Washington, people who did great things and people still wondering about whether or not you are capable of—Then this guy at Rutgers up there, what was it? President— Paul Ortiz: [indistinct 00:44:12]. Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: I mean, how could he do that in 1995? But, well, anyway, that's the kind of a thing that can come out of discrimination and misconception and wrong ideas. Paul Ortiz: Well, Mr. White, it's really it's interesting that you mentioned that earlier period, and because it seems to be connected to this current—Well, one of the things that seems to connect it is the church because, I mean, this church has been here since those early years, since 1866. Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Right. Paul Ortiz: I mean, what a rich history this church must have. Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yeah. Well, this church, for example, they had a library in this church that later became the Stanford L. Warren Library. We had a minister that featured recreation, Reverend Dr. Miles Mark Fisher. He had a community softball league, and I understand that that probably may have been the first public recreation in town. The library, they had a nursery school, and had all kinds of things coming out of the church. Paul Ortiz: Was White Rock the church that you joined when you first came to Durham? Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Yes, sir. I joined White Rock and I've been a member of ever since. Paul Ortiz: Then how did you come to White Rock? Did you just—Was it an accident or did you— Nathaniel Bradshaw White Sr.: Well, I think I got in my business, the printing business. I'm got to know the pastor of this church, Dr. Miles Mark Fisher, and I joined the church.