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<v Felix Armfield>Okay, now we're back on take two with—

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Charity was—

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<v Felix Armfield>Ms. Mouton.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Charity was a segregated hospital. One side for White, one side for Blacks. That's how you entered. You went on that side said Black, and this side said White.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And so when you would go, there were no Black nurses or Black doctors. Black doctors [indistinct 00:00:40]—

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<v Felix Armfield>Even to treat the Black patients that went in.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Even to treat the Black patients who went there. And that was when my mother was in there, there were still none. That was, she died in 52. And there were still nothing but White nurses and White doctors. That's right. When I had my son, they had just started letting, I guess a few nurses come there, but not to receive any training. They had not started giving them training.

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<v Felix Armfield>So the Black nurses here [indistinct 00:01:18].

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Had to go Dillard and come to Flint-Goodridge, that's where they got their—

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<v Felix Armfield>That's where they could get their training.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That's where they got—

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<v Felix Armfield>Nowhere else in the city.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Nowhere else. Because there was no other hospital here that took them. And that was our only hospital for Blacks.

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<v Felix Armfield>Which was Flint-Goodridge.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And it was Flint-Goodridge. And it was sold not too many years ago by Cook, who's the president of Dillard now. Mm-hmm. That was a very sad occasion for me because I always said, we get rid of everything we had. My son says it's because we don't see into the future.

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<v Felix Armfield>Were your children born—[indistinct 00:01:58].

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>No, my children were born at Charity because I had bleeding when I'm pregnant. And my doctor, my Black doctor told me to go there because they had better equipments to take care of me. And that's what happened.

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<v Felix Armfield>Well, what was important was your health at that point.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That's it. And after I had them though, I didn't go back there except to bring, and then I brought my children to the doctor, to—

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<v Felix Armfield>To Flint-Goodridge.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>My Black doctor.

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<v Felix Armfield>For their regular treatment.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That's right. That's right.

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<v Felix Armfield>I like that. That was smart.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>But I brought my son because he had what they call a mild case of clubfoot and they sent me there. The doctor who treated my son was also a cripple. And he said to me to have my son's shoes made at his shoemaker. This old man has died since. But no, Charity did not take any Black nurses for training until in recent years.

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<v Felix Armfield>Really?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That's right.

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<v Felix Armfield>So Black nurses who came out of nursing school at Dillard—

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That's who, a lot of them are at Charity now.

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<v Felix Armfield>A lot of them are at Charity now.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>A lot of them work there. One of the young ladies, friend of mine who was a head nurse over there. I don't know in what area, but she was a head nurse over there in that Charity.

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<v Felix Armfield>Ms. Pajeaud?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah. You ready for me?

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<v Felix Armfield>Yeah. We want you to come back and join us and finish telling me about that incident of the nursing school.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh yes. I can't pick up the lady's name, but I'll find it out for you.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Okay.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>And as I said, there was also a midwifery school there, but it never got off the ground, I don't think.

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<v Felix Armfield>Think that was at—

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>At the—

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>At Flint-Goodridge. Uh-huh.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Mm-hmm.

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<v Felix Armfield>So at Flint-Goodridge, there was some concern that they began training people in midwifery.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yeah.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And this is what, because at one time I was sitting here a lot of White midwives because they used to be able to put their signs out.

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<v Felix Armfield>Oh, okay. Isn't that interesting that Black people have always welcomed these people into our neighborhoods and into our homes and those kinds of things? But by the same token, a Black midwife, and correct me if I'm wrong, would not have had any White patients.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>No, not unless she couldn't go to a White, unless she went to a White one who refused to take her. Let's put it like that. But I've heard that some of them do. Some Black midwives did take White.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>My mother had a midwife for me.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. So you—

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>We were born like that. But in our time—

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<v Felix Armfield>You were born home and all your brother and sisters.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yes. Yes.

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<v Felix Armfield>And a midwife was on hand?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yes.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Midwife.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Her name was Miss Lucy. And she's on my birth certificate.

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<v Felix Armfield>Miss Lucy. Really?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>The lady's name and where she live.

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<v Felix Armfield>Do you have a copy of that birth certificate so I can get a picture of it? And it says midwife?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah. I'm sure it does.

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<v Felix Armfield>Midwife Miss Lucy.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Don't get up to go get it. We got to get through. My mother had—

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<v Felix Armfield>You can get it later. We're going to get that later.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>My mother had, she bored my ears when I was about five days old.

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<v Felix Armfield>She did what now?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Bored my ears.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Pierced her ears.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Pierced my ears.

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<v Felix Armfield>Oh, she pierced your ears when you were about five days—

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Five days old or something.

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<v Felix Armfield>Really? I didn't know they would do that that young.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>That's what they would do. Uh-huh.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>[indistinct 00:05:47].

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<v Felix Armfield>And then that way you don't have any recollections of it.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Uh-uh. The doctor did the babies. But my aunt who used to, my aunt bored all our ears. She used to just do that around and then—

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<v Felix Armfield>Now what are you saying? They bored your ears?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yeah. We say bored. And pierced is the same thing.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Pierced, that's the same thing.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay, now spell—yeah.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>B-O-R-E-D.

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<v Felix Armfield>B-O-R-E-D. Okay. I just need the correct spelling because the person—

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>They would take something and just bore it.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>It's a needle.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And put a piece of cork behind it and then you didn't feel it. And then stick that needle in it.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>That's why they do the men and women who have their ears pierced now—

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Ears bored now—

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<v Felix Armfield>Well, I don't know. I'm not one of those.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>You don't have earrings, huh? (laughs)

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<v Felix Armfield>No, no. I don't think my grandmother would be too pleased.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>I don't blame her.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I wouldn't be too pleased either.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Like I said, that's your ear, darling. But that doesn't mean I have to say I like it.

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<v Felix Armfield>Exactly.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>My grandson says now about he wants it. "Grandma, what'd you think about my ear being bored?" I said, "I think that you need another, if you get your ear bored, you need to have your brains out, bored in the head."

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Brains bored out.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yeah. I said, "You don't need any earring." That's the thing. He has another word for it, another slang word for it. I don't care what the thing is. I said, "I don't like the style. I don't like it." Well, he was trying to see if I would say it was all right, because his mother had already told him he couldn't bore his ear. And I said, "I have a solid gold earring of one that I broke the post on that my grandmother gave me as a wedding present." And I said, "I wouldn't even give you that. And I only have the one." And I can't get the other one fixed because the jeweler says—

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<v Felix Armfield>So your convictions against that are real strong.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Oh, very strong. And whoever wants can get it. I have no objections against what you do with yourself, but I don't really like the style.

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<v Felix Armfield>You don't like to see men in earrings.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>No, I don't.

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<v Felix Armfield>Yeah. I have cousins and friends who wear them but my grandparents raised me and I don't think they'd approve.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I'm sure they wouldn't. I don't like it either.

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<v Felix Armfield>Well, for one thing, it never has appealed to me.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>It never occurred to you. Uh-huh.

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<v Felix Armfield>No.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>To want to get it done.

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<v Felix Armfield>I never even had to sit down and think about it. It wasn't anything I contemplated. But at any rate, what do you remember during that period, during the war? Did you find work as Black women? Did you leave out of the home then to find work? Or were you already working when the war broke out?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I reckon I was married and having babies.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Did you find that you had to go, did your husband go participate in the war by chance?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>No.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>My husband didn't. And we married during the war. I've been married since '42 and right after the war broke out.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. So you got married in 1942.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yeah.

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<v Felix Armfield>And what year did you get married?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>'42.

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<v Felix Armfield>Oh, okay. You all got married around the same time as my grandparents got married. I think they got married in '44.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yeah.

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<v Felix Armfield>Yeah. 1944. But what do you recall about the war?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>But I did not—

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Well, all we know that is going on and all of the activity was that I was working at the hospital when it first started.

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<v Felix Armfield>Flint-Goodridge?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah, Flint-Goodridge.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yes, I remember there was a man that came to work at the hospital. I think he was promoting insurance, I think, health insurance during that time and whatnot. And I used to go with him at night to the plants. I put on a nurse's uniform to sign up to people with the health program and whatnot.

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<v Felix Armfield>Oh, so there was a public health program?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I can't remember all because that's been so long ago. That's over 50 years ago.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Okay.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>But I do remember that. But I think it was one of these health programs, health insurance.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Okay.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Health insurance.

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<v Felix Armfield>And you went into—

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>That we was promoting into the plants.

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<v Felix Armfield>Into the plants. Those [indistinct 00:10:07].

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>You see, because a lot of Black men held two jobs, one job in the day. And in fact, they were a lot of the men who were school teachers and worked in these plants that night.

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<v Felix Armfield>Yeah.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah.

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<v Felix Armfield>So they moonlighted in the factories at night.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>After World War II, that's when the Black people really were able to buy their homes and whatnot.

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<v Felix Armfield>Following World War II.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>That's how they got started.

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<v Felix Armfield>Was it because the soldiers were returning with money or—

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>No, because they—

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>—worked in the service if you—

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Those who were home were, as you say, moonlighting, holding out two jobs. And in the plants, they paid very good money, much more than what they were making teaching school, I'm sure.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yes. A lot of them used to be right there at Consolidated [indistinct 00:11:00]. Where I was working, we were making army clothes for the soldiers.

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<v Felix Armfield>Army clothes. Okay. Mm-hmm.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>We made army clothes for the soldiers at that time.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>So the war really helped the Black people.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yes. He had the contract.

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<v Felix Armfield>So you think it really helped.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh, it did.

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<v Felix Armfield>Economically.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>It did economically. That's what I'm talking about. You see. And they didn't have to fight in a way because they didn't want any Black men with guns.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And it wasn't until they got real serious that they started drafting the younger boys into service. Because that's how my brother-in-law got [indistinct 00:11:37] at 18, finished high school. And that June and September, he was drafted.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>And as I remarked, I didn't hear of any Black people that I knew killed during World War II, but I heard of a lot of them killed during the Vietnam War.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Quite a bit.

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<v Felix Armfield>Did you know of anyone who participated in the Korean War that followed World War II in 1950? The Korean Warfare?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>No, I didn't hear much about the Korean Warfare.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>And that followed World War II?

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<v Felix Armfield>Yes ma'am.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yes it did. Mm-hmm.

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<v Felix Armfield>Yeah, because World War II was over by '45, the Korean War broke out in 1950. As a matter fact, that was when it was supposed to be the first integrated army.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I had a baby in '45.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Mm-hmm.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>She was saying Dr. Geisler was what we call the insurance doctor for a lot of the different companies, because he was the insurance doctor for a sewing factory where I worked.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>And if I—

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<v Felix Armfield>Now what do you mean by an insurance doctor?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>You see? Like—

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Compensation.

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<v Felix Armfield>Oh, a compensation doctor.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yes. As big companies and something happened to you on the job, Dr. Geisler was the man they sent you to. And we used to call him the the horse doctor.

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<v Felix Armfield>The horse doctor? (laughs)

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>As a matter of fact, there is a city, a little town not far in Jefferson named Geisler, and it's from his family. This is no joke. All those teachers, people used to refer to him—My brother-in-law worked on the—

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<v Felix Armfield>(laughing) Ms. Mouton, why did you call him the horse doctor?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Because he treated you for everything. And I never forgot the needle broke and hit my eye. And when I was sent to Geisler, once he looked at my eye, he says, "I'm going to send you Stebbens." Stebbens was another eye doctor in the Maison Blanche building, because that's where Geisler was. And—

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<v Felix Armfield>What building was that?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Maison Blanche building.

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<v Felix Armfield>Spell that with me.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>M-A-I-S-O-N, Blanche. Like Blanche. B-L-A-N-C-H-E. That means White House.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Okay. And it's M-A-I-S-O—

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Remember I told you, that every letter I wrote, I remember Dr. Geisler—

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That's what I'm telling him now.

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<v Felix Armfield>Yes ma'am.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Geisler, any company, if you had any company here, and an employer was hurt on the river. My brother-in-law used to go to him. The people in the neighborhood, everybody say they send you to Dr. Geisler, see? Send you to the horse doctor. And that's the reason why they referred to him as the horse doctor.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>But he would not treat my eyes, he says. My eyes were too delicate. So when I went down to Stebbens, Stebbens was a doctor who didn't treat Blacks. And here I am, sitting in the office. And as soon as the little receptionist came, she called me in because Geisler had already called downstairs to Stebbens to let him know that he was sending me down. And he said to me, "Oh, you must be a special case," he said, for Geisler to send me. And when he looked in my eyes, he said the same thing. He said, "You have very delicate eyes." He said, "And that's probably why—" he said. And I told him that I had been going to ear, nose and throat hospital as a child, but he treated me.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Some more coffee? You're going to have the jitters.

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<v Felix Armfield>I don't need anything in at this time.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>But—

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<v Felix Armfield>Let me ask you something about that sewing factory you said you worked at. What was it like working there? Was everybody working together? Did you sit next to White people?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>No, most of his employees were, in fact, all of his employees were Black. And the office girls were White. And the few easier jobs like bundling the work up, they were White.

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<v Felix Armfield>So what exactly type of labor were you doing at the factory?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>When I first started there, I was what they call a trimmer. You cut all the loose threads off it.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I'll put it in the microwave.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And then I asked for a sewing machine. My first job working for Bunk was buttoning uniform shirts for the soldiers, the shirts that they wore. And you had to button the two buttons here, and then you button all the buttons down here. That my first day on that job, my fingers were so sore and my legs were so tired. And I went home and I cried. And my father told me then, "Don't go back tomorrow." But I went back and then they put me in the trim. See this mark here? The girl who trimmed next to me, she flew her arm and she still had her little trimmers in her hand and it stuck in my arm. She didn't do it purposely because we were laughing and talking with each other while we doing. But the little scissors went right in my own. But after trimming, I got on the sewing machine and I was what they call a belt setter. I set waistbands on pants.

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<v Felix Armfield>Oh, okay, okay.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And I left that job because I did it because I really needed a job at the time. My mother was very ill, in and out of the hospital for many years. And when she was almost down to her last time, then I gave that job.

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<v Felix Armfield>Mm-hmm. Okay.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Because it was sitting up in the hospital with my mother and working like that. And I wasn't making it with the boss because I didn't want to work overtime. And he insisted that I work overtime. And I couldn't do it because I was sitting up at night and I was worn out to leave the hospital six o'clock in the morning when my other sister would come and go to work for eight o'clock. I just could not keep it up. And I just quit. I didn't go back. And this is when I said that after that, and I had my children, I decided to go back to school. I have never regretted it.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. I understand. Well, that's one of the things you never regret. Ms. Pajeaud, what do you recall following that war period? What was the tone and the atmosphere?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>World War II, you mean?

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<v Felix Armfield>Exactly. What kinds of things did you all do for social and entertainment as young adults, I think you are by now, right?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Mm-hmm.

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<v Felix Armfield>By the time the war's over, you're both young adult people. Right? So what kinds of things were you doing here in the city of New Orleans?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh, it was good.

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<v Felix Armfield>Entertainment?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>You still did the same things you did before the war.

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<v Felix Armfield>Where did you go? Where did you hang out?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>During Carnival time, we went to all the Carnival balls.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Carnival balls.

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<v Felix Armfield>Carnival balls. Tell me about the Carnival balls. I don't know anything about this Carnival. I'm not from New Orleans so I don't know about the Carnival ball.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Well, they have the various clubs. The men have the clubs. They have the [indistinct 00:19:11] Illinois, the original Illinois, those clubs where they had the debutantes presented.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Now, did you go to the debutantes?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh, yes. We went to all of that. We went to both, and it was free. It was invitation. As I said, New Orleans around that time, it's a great big free circus, in a sense. And all of the clubs gave affairs during the Carnival time. And you were invited and you went [indistinct 00:19:42].

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<v Felix Armfield>Now when did the Carnival take place?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Before Mardi Gras day.

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<v Felix Armfield>Before Mardi Gras day.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Day. Yes. Mm-hmm. During the Carnival season. See, we call it Carnival, but it's the season of Carnival, which starts right after Christmas. Now, some people say it starts before Christmas. The White people, they started their balls in December, 12 days before Christmas. See, they started their balls—

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Kings Day.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Kings Day, yeah, that was right after Christmas.

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<v Felix Armfield>But Black people started theirs after.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Just before the Mardi Gras day. Just before Mardi Gras day. Right after Christmas, you'd be going to Carnival balls. And you didn't go to the auditorium. They had their own little places you were not permitted to go in these other places where the White people had their balls.

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<v Felix Armfield>So you held your balls separately.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Separately in other places.

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<v Felix Armfield>What was the attire for this Carnival ball?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Formal.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Long formal dresses.

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<v Felix Armfield>Very formal.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yes.

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<v Felix Armfield>Everyone was dapper, huh?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Formal, the man wore the black tuxedo and a black tie, and the ladies wore the long dresses.

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<v Felix Armfield>It was strictly a black tie affair, huh?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah.

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<v Felix Armfield>Well, what was this Carnival? What was it representative of? I don't know. This is the first—

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>It's supposed to be the social aspect of Black people and what we would consider the elite.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Okay.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I guess you can say too, that we were copying off the White people in a sense, because they had their Carnival balls. The king of Carnival, the Rex. I know you've heard about that—

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<v Felix Armfield>—Black folks having their balls—

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>No, no, I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Sure.

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<v Felix Armfield>Basically you all—

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I think it originated in France, I think.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Okay. Well, this area had been heavily influenced by the French.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah. Because they—

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<v Felix Armfield>You were influenced by them.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>French and Spanish.

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<v Felix Armfield>And it had nothing to do both with what color you were. You were here in this area.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>My grandmother wrote and spoke French. And when they first came here, they had difficulty understanding the people who call themselves Creoles here from the Seventh Ward, because their language was not pure French.

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<v Felix Armfield>Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Creole had to be a mixture of—

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>It was a mixture of—

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<v Felix Armfield>French and African.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>French and Spanish and everything else.

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<v Felix Armfield>Yeah.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Just like said about some people's gumbo. Everything is in it.

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<v Felix Armfield>Yeah. Everything's in there.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>And their different about that, they have different versions, as I'm sure you have heard and you have read. Some historians say that Creole means a mixture of French and Spanish.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Spanish.

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<v Felix Armfield>Creole, from what I understand, has been a mixture of everything.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Of everything.

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<v Felix Armfield>And it would be unfair of any historian to say that it is purely a mixture of French and Spanish.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That's what I looked to—

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<v Felix Armfield>Because there are Black Creoles and there are White Creoles. And we know that those Black Creoles have to be something else other than French and Spanish.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Right. Right.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Mm-hmm.

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<v Felix Armfield>So clearly. And there's some Creoles that have a mixture of Native American Indians.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Right.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yes. My mother-in-law.

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<v Felix Armfield>So the Creole is just—but I think it's more or less what you said earlier on.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>It's a culture.

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<v Felix Armfield>It's a culture.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>It's a culture.

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<v Felix Armfield>It's a culture. Because both of you have just expressed to me throughout the course of this interview that you do come from Creole backgrounds, but you aren't confessing Creoles now because you're not in the culture.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>No. Right.

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<v Felix Armfield>Exactly. So I think Creole, and I think that's the one thing that has been good for me in coming to New Orleans. I finally can say, now I know what this Creole is. It's a culture. It's not a person. I can't just look out at some person and assume that they are Creole by looking at them.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Because they're light skinned, as I say, with "good hair," as they said.

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<v Felix Armfield>Yeah. Yeah.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>No.

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<v Felix Armfield>Yeah.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Uh-uh. It's more than that.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And they used to have their Carnival balls to themselves at one times, the lighter skins.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh. I got to tell you about that.

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<v Felix Armfield>Please. I want to—(all laugh)

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<v Felix Armfield>Ms. Pajeaud, you want to start talking about that? How the Creole would have their balls separate from Black people's ball?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yes. The Autocrat Club is on St. Bernard—

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<v Felix Armfield>Now, spell that for me.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>A-U-T-O-C-R-A-T.

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<v Felix Armfield>C-R-A-T. And it's called the Autocrat Club.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Mm-hmm.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>On St. Bernard, but it's further down. St. Bernard.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>It's near to Claiborne Avenue by the I-10.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. I know where you're talking about.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>And there is a saying, and I understand it as a true saying, that you could not be darker than a paper bag.

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<v Felix Armfield>So they had to do the paper bag test.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah.

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<v Felix Armfield>To get in.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>You heard about that, huh?

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<v Felix Armfield>I've heard about the paper bag test. I don't know about it in this particular incident. But I want you to tell me about this incident (all laugh).

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Well, you see, as children, we were not yet down in that area. We weren't in that area. We were in what they call the Treme. And it was a different thing. You see? Marjorie is a Treme light-skin.

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<v Felix Armfield>And people wanted to confuse you with Seventh Ward because she's so light skinned. She has to be from Seventh Ward.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yeah. Yeah. She has to be from the Seventh Ward.

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<v Felix Armfield>Uh-huh. And you took great pride in saying, "No, I'm from the Sixth Ward."

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>That's right. (laughs)

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<v Felix Armfield>I've seen pictures of your father. What did your mother look like?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>She was light.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>She was light skinned also.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Mm-hmm.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>My mother was light skinned.

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<v Felix Armfield>So both of your parents were from the Creole background?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah. Uh-huh. In color.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. In color.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Mine too. But my mother was [indistinct 00:25:40]. My mother not, she may have been a little lighter than I, have a freckled face, but what in many times they referred to as a brick head, which meant that—

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<v Felix Armfield>Brick head?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yeah. That was a lighter person with not curly hair.

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<v Felix Armfield>Oh.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That's when they called a brick head.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Good hair.

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<v Felix Armfield>Without the straight hair. The hair was a little kinky.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yeah. That's it.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>They used to refer to it as good hair. "Oh, she had good hair" or "She had bad hair."

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<v Felix Armfield>Yeah. Yeah. Simply because their hair was straight. Yeah.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yeah.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah. Yeah.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>But you see, my father was on the light side with hair like Chinaman.

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<v Felix Armfield>Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I want to finish hearing about this Autocrat Club.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Well, they were very, very prejudiced.

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<v Felix Armfield>Really?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yes.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Everybody who, all the members were fair skinned people. Fair skinned people. All of the members. Of course it is not the same now. It really has gone down.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Okay. I would hope.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I dare say—

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<v Felix Armfield>The new generation is learning to move away from that kind of stuff.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Well, you know what I say all the time? Of course as you know, I have a sense of humor. Always humor in everything.

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<v Felix Armfield>I love it.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>[indistinct 00:26:59] class lady, the first president of the Autocrat Club, after many years.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>That was brown skinned.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That was brown skinned.

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<v Felix Armfield>Oh well, he couldn't have been in the Autocrat Club.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>He couldn't have.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh no.

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<v Felix Armfield>[indistinct 00:27:12] twenties and thirties like you all were talking about.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>[indistinct 00:27:17] darker than he is now, in there now.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Now.

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<v Felix Armfield>So it doesn't imply that one has to be of light complexion.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Not anymore.

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<v Felix Armfield>Or Creole.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Not anymore.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Not anymore. We're glad to get anybody to become a member now. [indistinct 00:27:30]. If you wanted to join, you could join Autocrat Club.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Now.

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<v Felix Armfield>I don't think I want to be a part of the Autocrat Club.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I'm just saying.

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<v Felix Armfield>No, no, no. If they didn't take my two good friends based on the fact that they were good people, I don't want to be a part of it.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Let me see if I can find [indistinct 00:27:47].

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<v Felix Armfield>So what kinds of things, was it a social club or?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah, it was a social club.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>It was a social and pleasure club, as they call it. He and his brothers were members of it. And you could see, he's light. This fella right here. Charles.

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<v Felix Armfield>That's his brother?

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>No, no.

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<v Felix Armfield>Oh, okay.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Charles and his brother.

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<v Felix Armfield>Okay.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Their father was a member of Autocrats when he was a young man. Lucille, the sister told me that, said then that's how I know that when he became the president, that he was the first real dark one. Lucille makes you laugh about that, Charles's sister. I said that they wanted to have a fit, some of the members wanted to have a fit over it. But all the older ones, old enough to be our parents in that age group. There were no dark ones at all. And neither were the ladies.

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Uh-uh. And they wives were light skinned too. But—

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<v Felix Armfield>So you had to marry within this thing too.

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<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yeah, that's how they used to be. That's how they was—

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>That's how they did, the Seventh Warders. They remarried.

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<v Felix Armfield>Well, how is it that you had obviously such a greater sense of understanding and pride in who you were and your Blackness, Ms. Pajeaud, and didn't get caught up into all that?

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<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>No, I didn't come up like that. My parents never, even though my father was very, very fair. In other words, you would take him for a White man anytime. In fact, they did think that he was White most of the time. That's how fair he was. And he looked like a White man even. But they never talked that around me in the home. Black and all like that.

376
29:33.000 --> 29:34.000
<v Felix Armfield>Clearly they understood that you were going to have to survive in this world—

377
29:34.000 --> 29:34.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>And they shouldn't.

378
29:34.000 --> 29:36.000
<v Felix Armfield>As a Black woman.

379
29:36.000 --> 29:39.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>And they never showed it.

380
29:39.000 --> 29:41.000
<v Felix Armfield>They didn't want to set you up.

381
29:41.000 --> 29:48.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>And they never showed it. And [indistinct 00:29:41], I never liked light men. (Armfield and Pajeaud laugh)

382
29:48.000 --> 29:48.000
<v Felix Armfield>You are—

383
29:48.000 --> 29:54.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Tell you about Winchester. (all laugh)

384
29:54.000 --> 29:54.000
<v Felix Armfield>Tell me about Mr. Winchester.

385
29:54.000 --> 29:54.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>I'll tell you about Winchester.

386
29:54.000 --> 29:54.000
<v Felix Armfield>I want to hear.

387
29:54.000 --> 29:57.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>A dark man.

388
29:57.000 --> 29:59.000
<v Felix Armfield>I want to hear about Mr. Winchester. That's important.

389
29:59.000 --> 29:59.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>He was a dark man. That was all.

390
29:59.000 --> 29:59.000
<v Felix Armfield>He was a dark man.

391
29:59.000 --> 29:59.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>He was a dark man. He was a dark man.

392
29:59.000 --> 30:06.000
<v Felix Armfield>Yeah.

393
30:06.000 --> 30:09.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>And as you see, my husband Pajeaud, he was brown skinned man.

394
30:09.000 --> 30:17.000
<v Felix Armfield>Yeah. I don't think either one of your husbands were light men.

395
30:17.000 --> 30:17.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>They weren't.

396
30:17.000 --> 30:17.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>No, they weren't.

397
30:17.000 --> 30:17.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>They weren't.

398
30:17.000 --> 30:17.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>They weren't. They weren't.

399
30:17.000 --> 30:20.000
<v Felix Armfield>Okay. So you didn't have this thing about—

400
30:20.000 --> 30:28.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>No, I never came up with that prejudice like that. Uh-uh. And you see the man my daughter married.

401
30:28.000 --> 30:30.000
<v Felix Armfield>Yeah. Very handsome family.

402
30:30.000 --> 30:30.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah.

403
30:30.000 --> 30:30.000
<v Felix Armfield>Yeah.

404
30:30.000 --> 30:35.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>So we never had any qualms about that. But the other people did.

405
30:35.000 --> 30:38.000
<v Felix Armfield>Yeah.

406
30:38.000 --> 30:38.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Uh-huh.

407
30:38.000 --> 30:39.000
<v Felix Armfield>I was just about to say, how—

408
30:39.000 --> 30:47.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Strange as it was, strange as it was, I had a friend, because she's dead, she was very, very, very dark.

409
30:47.000 --> 30:48.000
<v Felix Armfield>Mm-hmm.

410
30:48.000 --> 31:24.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>But when Daphne started keeping company with Keith, she was outdone. She told me, she said, "How can you allow that? How can you—" Now, dark as she was. And she said, "How can you allow that?" I said, "Now, what are you talking about, Muriel?" "How can you allow your daughter to go with a man like that?" I said, "What you mean a man like that?" She said, "You know what I mean. This dark skinned man with your daughter." I said, "But what that has to do with it?" "Oh, but I just—" Oh, she was—

411
31:24.000 --> 31:28.000
<v Felix Armfield>What does it have to do with the kindness in his heart and how he felt about her?

412
31:28.000 --> 31:28.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>What did it have do with the manhood?

413
31:28.000 --> 31:31.000
<v Felix Armfield>Exactly.

414
31:31.000 --> 31:43.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>But you know what really amused me? When these light skinned girls, some of them had light eyes and light hair, started marrying these dark boys. I said the grandmas must be rolling in their graves! (all laugh)

415
31:43.000 --> 31:53.000
<v Felix Armfield>Ms. Pajeaud! (laughing)

416
31:53.000 --> 32:01.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I said, "Oh my goodness." I know the grandmas and the mamas are turning over in their grave.

417
32:01.000 --> 32:05.000
<v Felix Armfield>I'm just wondering what kinds of things did you encounter as a young girl growing up?

418
32:05.000 --> 32:07.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh, I encountered quite a bit.

419
32:07.000 --> 32:08.000
<v Felix Armfield>Here in New Orleans.

420
32:08.000 --> 32:08.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yes.

421
32:08.000 --> 32:11.000
<v Felix Armfield>You know, good, bad, or just indifferent? What did you—

422
32:11.000 --> 32:16.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>When I walked down the street with a dark man, White people would [indistinct 00:32:16].

423
32:16.000 --> 32:27.000
<v Felix Armfield>Stop and look. (laughs) They wanted to know, were you or some little White girl that this Black boy was picking up?

424
32:27.000 --> 32:28.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>White girl with this Black boy. Yeah.

425
32:28.000 --> 33:09.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>They do it now. Marjorie and I went to a teacher's convention, that's about four years ago at one of the hotels here. And the sections were different, our different—So I went to one session, Marjorie went to another session, and then we would compare what was said so we wouldn't—Make as many of the sessions as we possibly could. And then she decided to go to one about the income tax. And I went to one about medicines. So while she was, my session ended first. So I had to come from around the room where I was at.

426
33:09.000 --> 33:09.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>[indistinct 00:33:09], Jessie?

427
33:09.000 --> 33:09.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Huh?

428
33:09.000 --> 33:12.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>[indistinct 00:33:13].

429
33:12.000 --> 33:23.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>No thank you. I haven't eaten yet. So when I came back, she was still talking to this lady. At that time, Duke was running for mayor because we got up—

430
33:23.000 --> 33:23.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>This is David Duke, isn't it?

431
33:23.000 --> 33:26.000
<v Felix Armfield>Of course. The nation [indistinct 00:33:26].

432
33:26.000 --> 33:53.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>He was one of the speakers at this thing. And I told her, I said, "I'm going to listen to Edwards, but when Duke comes up, I'm getting up and walk out." So when I come out of the session, she's with this White woman telling her to vote for Duke, huh? (Armfield laughs) Now, when I came up, the woman ended her conversation and gave her a card because she didn't want—I'm Black.

433
33:53.000 --> 33:57.000
<v Felix Armfield>She thought Ms. Pajeaud— (laughs).

434
33:57.000 --> 34:16.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>She didn't want me to hear what she was telling Marjorie, thinking Marjorie was White. She hurried up and gave Marjorie their card. So when we got around the bed, Marjorie said, "I'm so glad you came up at that time." She said, "Because let me tell you what she was telling me." So Marjorie went on to telling me. I said—

435
34:16.000 --> 34:18.000
<v Felix Armfield>You told what she said? (laughing)

436
34:18.000 --> 34:19.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yes. Yes. Yes.

437
34:19.000 --> 34:24.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Told me what the White woman said. I said, "Yeah, you see? I'm just like—"

438
34:24.000 --> 34:28.000
<v Felix Armfield>She was having bad, awful things to say. At least things that weren't nice, I assume.

439
34:28.000 --> 34:34.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>No, you see, when she was—she was trying to encourage me to vote for Duke.

440
34:34.000 --> 34:37.000
<v Felix Armfield>No she was not! (laughing)

441
34:37.000 --> 34:37.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That's what I'm telling you!

442
34:37.000 --> 34:41.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>She didn't know that I was not White. You see? She thought that I was White. And she was encouraging me.

443
34:41.000 --> 34:46.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>"And he's going to do things for you. He's going to get things done for you." She told us.

444
34:46.000 --> 34:48.000
<v Felix Armfield>She really did?

445
34:48.000 --> 34:50.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>She did not know Marjorie was—

446
34:50.000 --> 34:52.000
<v Felix Armfield>You were just standing there, listening to her.

447
34:52.000 --> 34:52.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Standing there listening.

448
34:52.000 --> 34:53.000
<v Felix Armfield>Saying all these—(laughs)

449
34:53.000 --> 34:58.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And I was the savior when I came up. (Armfield laughs)

450
34:58.000 --> 34:59.000
<v Felix Armfield>Did she still, did she realize that you are Black?

451
34:59.000 --> 35:01.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>I guess she did after—

452
35:01.000 --> 35:08.000
<v Felix Armfield>Or just somebody who was being friendly with this Black woman?

453
35:08.000 --> 35:11.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah. Because you see, nowadays you can tell.

454
35:11.000 --> 35:11.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>You can be with the Black person—

455
35:11.000 --> 35:16.000
<v Felix Armfield>Yeah. But when Ms. Mouton walked up, she stopped her conversation.

456
35:16.000 --> 35:19.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Stopped her conversation. She gave Marjorie the card and say, "Here, you can get in touch with me at this."

457
35:19.000 --> 35:21.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah. She gave me—

458
35:21.000 --> 35:36.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>She gave her the card. And that ended that conversation. Whereas she would've continued talking had I not come up at the time.

459
35:36.000 --> 35:36.000
<v Felix Armfield>Had you not walked up. Oh.

460
35:36.000 --> 35:36.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>You see? But I came up.

461
35:36.000 --> 35:36.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>See how these hypocrites, they are.

462
35:36.000 --> 35:36.000
<v Felix Armfield>Yeah.

463
35:36.000 --> 35:36.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>And they don't mean you any good at all.

464
35:36.000 --> 35:38.000
<v Felix Armfield>None whatsoever.

465
35:38.000 --> 35:40.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And my father's expression was that they don't know their own kind. And this is proof.

466
35:40.000 --> 35:44.000
<v Felix Armfield>They don't. They really don't.

467
35:44.000 --> 35:46.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh no, they don't. They don't know Black people.

468
35:46.000 --> 35:56.000
<v Felix Armfield>But you know what? There is no way that I could be, either—we could be fooled that Ms. Pajeaud, anything else other than a Black woman. We know each other when we see each other.

469
35:56.000 --> 35:58.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>I tell her, I said, "We going to go ahead and you tell them I'm the maid."

470
35:58.000 --> 36:06.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>[indistinct 00:36:04].

471
36:06.000 --> 36:11.000
<v Felix Armfield>But see now, the interesting thing is that we may have to look twice sometimes, but you can just—

472
36:11.000 --> 36:12.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>We know them.

473
36:12.000 --> 36:12.000
<v Felix Armfield>We know each other. We know each other.

474
36:12.000 --> 36:12.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>If they have blonde hair and blue eyes.

475
36:12.000 --> 36:12.000
<v Felix Armfield>I don't care what color, we know each other.

476
36:12.000 --> 36:20.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Marjorie, didn't you see a lot of light skinned women there?

477
36:20.000 --> 36:21.000
<v Felix Armfield>Yeah. But there was no question that—

478
36:21.000 --> 36:30.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And those are women who have taught us and things like that. Have always worked in the public schools with Black children.

479
36:30.000 --> 36:47.000
<v Felix Armfield>Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. But you were telling me before we started telling me about the David Duke incident, about your experiences of growing up here as such a light skinned girl.

480
36:47.000 --> 36:49.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah. Well, it wasn't too bad in New Orleans.

481
36:49.000 --> 36:50.000
<v Felix Armfield>Okay.

482
36:50.000 --> 36:53.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Because they had a lot of light skinned people up in New Orleans, you see?

483
36:53.000 --> 36:55.000
<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Okay.

484
36:55.000 --> 36:58.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Because they had the Creoles down there in Seventh Ward.

485
36:58.000 --> 37:14.000
<v Felix Armfield>But see, the thing was is that you never knew whether the light skinned Blacks were going to be in the company of Black people or what they were going to do. You sound like you was one of these persons who clearly enjoyed being with them folk from trimming.

486
37:14.000 --> 37:25.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh, yeah. I did. I did. I never wanted to be anything but what I was. I never had any aspiration or anything like that. In fact, I never passed for White.

487
37:25.000 --> 37:25.000
<v Felix Armfield>Okay.

488
37:25.000 --> 37:25.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>[indistinct 00:37:25].

489
37:25.000 --> 37:29.000
<v Felix Armfield>Yeah. Mm-hmm. There were some people who were passing?

490
37:29.000 --> 37:33.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>They were friends that I know when the Senger was first built, they wanted to go in the Senger.

491
37:33.000 --> 37:33.000
<v Felix Armfield>Now what's the—

492
37:33.000 --> 37:33.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That was a theater for Whites only.

493
37:33.000 --> 37:39.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>—a very pretty theater.

494
37:39.000 --> 37:39.000
<v Felix Armfield>And what was it called? Can you spell it?

495
37:39.000 --> 37:39.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>S-E-N-G-E-R.

496
37:39.000 --> 37:45.000
<v Felix Armfield>S-E-N-G-E-R. Oh, the Senger Theater.

497
37:45.000 --> 37:47.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yes. The Senger Theater.

498
37:47.000 --> 37:49.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>It's right on the corner of Canal and Rampart.

499
37:49.000 --> 37:52.000
<v Felix Armfield>Okay. And they wanted to get in to see the Senger?

500
37:52.000 --> 37:52.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Just to see.

501
37:52.000 --> 37:53.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>They would go—

502
37:53.000 --> 37:54.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Just to see. And they went.

503
37:54.000 --> 37:54.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>My father used to—

504
37:54.000 --> 37:57.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>A lot of people, all the light skin—

505
37:57.000 --> 37:58.000
<v Felix Armfield>And they were Black people, but they passed, to get in.

506
37:58.000 --> 37:58.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah, sure.

507
37:58.000 --> 38:03.000
<v Felix Armfield>They'd let us in—that is so hilarious to me.

508
38:03.000 --> 38:05.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah they did, that was common here.

509
38:05.000 --> 38:07.000
<v Felix Armfield>So you could fool people with that.

510
38:07.000 --> 38:07.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Sure. They didn't know, you could go anywhere you wanted.

511
38:07.000 --> 38:10.000
<v Felix Armfield>You never tried it, just as a joke or gimmick?

512
38:10.000 --> 38:10.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>No, I never did.

513
38:10.000 --> 38:12.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>A lot of people didn't.

514
38:12.000 --> 38:14.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I was too afraid, you see? I was always kind of—

515
38:14.000 --> 38:14.000
<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Timid.

516
38:14.000 --> 38:17.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>She was afraid.

517
38:17.000 --> 38:18.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I didn't want to be embarrassed.

518
38:18.000 --> 38:19.000
<v Felix Armfield>Yeah. Yeah.

519
38:19.000 --> 38:20.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I didn't want to be embarrassed.

520
38:20.000 --> 38:21.000
<v Felix Armfield>Because you clearly knew who you were. (laughs)

521
38:21.000 --> 38:22.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>I knew. I knew who I wasn't. I thought everybody else knew who I was.

522
38:22.000 --> 38:26.000
<v Felix Armfield>Knew who you were.

523
38:26.000 --> 39:26.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That's why my father said they didn't know their own kind. Because he would do things just to, like he said, try them. He sat at a drugstore, little drugstore lunch counter. And our neighbor came in who was Black and said, "Hello, Mr. Norman," and spoke to him. And he asked her if she wanted a cup of coffee because that's what he was drinking. He had just come from the clinic. And before she could answer him, the waitress told him, "We don't serve Colored people here at this drug store." And he said, "How the hell you don't know if I'm Colored or White?" And he was about cussing, Ms. Arlene told him, said, "Oh, that's all right, Mr. Norman." And he got up and he left the drugstore and he didn't pay the lady and he left the coffee on the counter.

524
39:26.000 --> 39:26.000
<v Felix Armfield>Really?

525
39:26.000 --> 39:27.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That's right.

526
39:27.000 --> 39:28.000
<v Felix Armfield>Really?

527
39:28.000 --> 40:12.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And when he was ill, getting back to Charity Hospital with the Black and the White side, he was sick, really feeling bad. And my sister and I took him and we were each side of his arm. And when you walk up to the desk where the Blacks are supposed to go, it's this nurse sitting at the desk. And she said, you know your name. He gave her his name. Said, "Are you White or Colored?" He said, "These are my daughters." She said, "I said, are you White or Color?" He said, "God damn." He said, "I said, these are my daughters." At the time, a nurse's aide came up from the neighborhood, she said—

528
40:12.000 --> 40:13.000
<v Felix Armfield>Oh, I wish I could have known (laughs)—

529
40:13.000 --> 40:16.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And we didn't say anything because we knew how Papa was.

530
40:16.000 --> 40:16.000
<v Felix Armfield>Yeah.

531
40:16.000 --> 40:19.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>You see?

532
40:19.000 --> 40:57.000
<v Felix Armfield>So the lady came up, Emanuella came up and she says, "Oh, what's the matter, Mr. Norman? You're not feeling too good?" And I told her, "Yeah," I said, "That's why we brought him back." Now that went on down. She said to the, "Well, I'll take care of him." Said, "This nurse was very mad at this desk because Papa wouldn't say to her whether he was Black or White." So when we got upstairs, he was the person who, none of them gray, because you see, I'm not half as gray but she's been gray since she was young. But even so, I'm old enough to have more gray hair. Both sides of my family did not gray early.

533
40:57.000 --> 40:57.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Okay.

534
40:57.000 --> 41:18.000
<v Felix Armfield>So Papa went upstairs. Here's this doctor. He said, "You must be Spanish." And my sister, who's the oldest one said, "Oh my goodness. Don't start that. He's going to get a little Spanish doctor to say." And he said to Papa, "Can you speak Spanish?" Papa said, "No, because I ain't Spanish. You see?" (laughs)

535
41:18.000 --> 41:41.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh, I went to Cancun one time with another lady, a friend of mine. And I'll never forget. We were in line at the airport about to get the plane. And it seemed as if the airport man was letting all the Spanish people come in front of the line.

536
41:41.000 --> 41:44.000
<v Felix Armfield>Now, when was this?

537
41:44.000 --> 42:00.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh, that's been about eight or nine years ago. Something like that. And so I was with this lady, she's very fair, whatnot. But he came and got me and spoke in Spanish. (laughs) Said you can go up there. I said, "Uh-uh."

538
42:00.000 --> 42:01.000
<v Felix Armfield>I ain't the one. Uh-uh.

539
42:01.000 --> 42:17.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>No. He kept saying something in Spanish again. I said, "No, no speak Spanish."

540
42:17.000 --> 42:39.000
<v Felix Armfield>"No speak Spanish." (all laugh) Oh my goodness. What do you all remember about your teaching experiences? Which is one of the last things we want to talk about before we run out of tape here. About your teaching experiences here in New Orleans. Now, did both of you teach before integration?

541
42:39.000 --> 42:39.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Oh yes.

542
42:39.000 --> 42:41.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yes.

543
42:41.000 --> 42:48.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>That's what I told you. Back when integration came about, I had just transferred and I was the newest teacher in the building and I had—

544
42:48.000 --> 42:52.000
<v Felix Armfield>What do you recall prior to integration? What was [indistinct 00:42:52]—

545
42:52.000 --> 43:24.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>I taught right by one of what they call city projects. So I had no problems and no White children there. But the school that I transferred to had several White children there. I had three during the years there. But it seemed like except for one family, they get about second grade and they took them all out. They were just decreasing. When I first went to McDonald 42, there must have been about over a hundred children.

546
43:24.000 --> 43:25.000
<v Felix Armfield>Really?

547
43:25.000 --> 43:25.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>White.

548
43:25.000 --> 43:31.000
<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Okay.

549
43:31.000 --> 43:54.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And I wasn't there that long before they were on me about three or four. And then after that, it became all Black. And that happened to most of the schools. We have a Catholic school right at the corner of St. Bernard and Gentilly. And that used to be an all White Catholic school. And now there's not one White child in that school.

550
43:54.000 --> 43:55.000
<v Felix Armfield>Really?

551
43:55.000 --> 44:01.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>And the nuns left. All of the nuns who were teachers there.

552
44:01.000 --> 44:02.000
<v Felix Armfield>Once integration came?

553
44:02.000 --> 44:06.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Once integration came, they started leaving. Uh-huh.

554
44:06.000 --> 44:09.000
<v Felix Armfield>The nuns left.

555
44:09.000 --> 44:11.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>So now there are no nuns that I can understand.

556
44:11.000 --> 44:13.000
<v Felix Armfield>Make you question folks' religion.

557
44:13.000 --> 44:13.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>That's [indistinct 00:44:14].

558
44:13.000 --> 44:18.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>We question it all the time. The two of us.

559
44:18.000 --> 44:19.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>[indistinct 00:44:17] and the nuns too.

560
44:19.000 --> 44:19.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yeah.

561
44:19.000 --> 44:22.000
<v Felix Armfield>Makes you question folks and their religion.

562
44:22.000 --> 44:22.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yes.

563
44:22.000 --> 44:24.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>[indistinct 00:44:24] protected about everything.

564
44:24.000 --> 44:37.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>I am too. Because you see, we went to a church where we had White nuns who taught us catechism as children. And they were prejudiced. Very, very prejudiced.

565
44:37.000 --> 44:39.000
<v Felix Armfield>Mm-hmm.

566
44:39.000 --> 44:40.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>This is something—

567
44:40.000 --> 44:40.000
<v Felix Armfield>[indistinct 00:44:40] your little Black children.

568
44:40.000 --> 44:40.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yes.

569
44:40.000 --> 44:41.000
<v Felix Armfield>[indistinct 00:44:42].

570
44:41.000 --> 44:42.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yes. Uh-huh.

571
44:42.000 --> 44:42.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh yeah.

572
44:42.000 --> 44:46.000
<v Felix Armfield>Yeah.

573
44:46.000 --> 44:54.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>But unless you have somebody at home telling you the right this is supposed to be, then you confused about it.

574
44:54.000 --> 44:57.000
<v Felix Armfield>What do you recall?

575
44:57.000 --> 45:11.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Well, before integration, it was very nice far as the children and the parents. But I thought that administration was very hard on the Black teachers.

576
45:11.000 --> 45:13.000
<v Felix Armfield>This was during segregation?

577
45:13.000 --> 45:13.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yeah.

578
45:13.000 --> 45:13.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Yeah.

579
45:13.000 --> 45:14.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>[indistinct 00:45:14].

580
45:14.000 --> 45:17.000
<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Now administration [indistinct 00:45:16] from White administrative.

581
45:17.000 --> 45:22.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>The superintendent. Yeah. [indistinct 00:45:20]. And we didn't have equal pay.

582
45:22.000 --> 45:23.000
<v Felix Armfield>Oh, really?

583
45:23.000 --> 45:25.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>No. We had to fight for that [indistinct 00:45:26]. It was a mitigation. Yeah, because she was one of the persons started that year.

584
45:25.000 --> 45:27.000
<v Felix Armfield>[indistinct 00:45:28] equal pay.

585
45:27.000 --> 45:34.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Yes, she did. Uh-huh.

586
45:34.000 --> 45:36.000
<v Felix Armfield>Now you were teaching here in the New Orleans public—

587
45:36.000 --> 45:38.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>In New Orleans public schools. [indistinct 00:45:38].

588
45:38.000 --> 45:39.000
<v Felix Armfield>And what grades did you teach?

589
45:39.000 --> 45:40.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Second grade and kindergarten.

590
45:40.000 --> 45:45.000
<v Felix Armfield>Okay. Second grade and kindergarten.

591
45:45.000 --> 45:57.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>But the teachers, I mean the students and the parents were very, very cooperative and very, very nice. But as the time went on, it became very difficult.

592
45:57.000 --> 45:59.000
<v Felix Armfield>Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

593
45:59.000 --> 46:05.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Parents were different, than the children were different. It's a whole new ballgame now.

594
46:05.000 --> 46:05.000
<v Felix Armfield>Oh yeah.

595
46:05.000 --> 46:05.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh yeah.

596
46:05.000 --> 46:07.000
<v Felix Armfield>Makes you glad you're out of that system.

597
46:07.000 --> 46:07.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh yeah.

598
46:07.000 --> 46:11.000
<v Jessie Lawrence Mouton>Oh yeah.

599
46:11.000 --> 46:11.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh yeah. Yeah. We saw both sides of it too. [indistinct 00:46:11].

600
46:11.000 --> 46:25.000
<v Felix Armfield>But I think it's interesting that you pointed out here that although you were in segregated school facilities, your administration in fact was handed down by White administrators.

601
46:25.000 --> 46:27.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh yes, it was. It was. It was.

602
46:27.000 --> 46:37.000
<v Felix Armfield>Were you accustomed to getting things like secondhand books and materials and things like that?

603
46:37.000 --> 46:37.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Oh yeah. Yeah. We were accustomed to that.

604
46:37.000 --> 46:37.000
<v Felix Armfield>Really?

605
46:37.000 --> 46:42.000
<v Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud>Uh-huh. And we had to work twice as hard as a—