WEBVTT
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Oh, I think I need to-
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This is Kate Ellis
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interviewing Emily Willette McCandies
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from Hillsborough, North Carolina
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on June 8th, 1994
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at about 2:30 PM.
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When did you first come to this area, Hillsborough?
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[Emily Willette McCandies] I was about seven years old.
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We moved down from Alamance County
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and this is where I first started the school.
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Who did you come down with?
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I came down with my mother's brother and his wife.
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They raised me from birth.
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So I've been with them ever since.
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Your mother's brother. So your uncle?
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Right.
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Are they kind of like parents to you? I mean.
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Right.
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Why did they-
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Do you know why they raised you?
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My parents died when I was small.
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Oh.
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How did they pass?
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I don't really know what was wrong with my daddy,
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but my mother died from tuberculosis.
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Oh, wow. And so they took care of you.
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And so did you move around the time that your parents died
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or had you already been living with your-?
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I had already been living with them.
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Okay.
Because they were sickly.
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And so my mother wanted her brother to have me.
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And my mother's cousin
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raised my sister.
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Your mother's cousin. Oh, I see.
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So is your sister older or younger?
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Younger.
Oh, okay.
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And I have two brothers and they stayed with my daddy,
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which they were older.
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Oh, I see. How much?
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So were they a lot older?
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A little older.
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They were old enough to take care of themselves.
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When he passed?
Right.
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I see.
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So who is still around here?
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I mean, of your-
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So you have two brothers and a sister and you.
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I have one brother living.
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Oh.
And one sister.
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Okay.
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Did the aunt and uncle who raised you,
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who are like your parents,
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did they also have children of their own
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that they had together?
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Yes, they had seven.
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So were you raised in that whole family?
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Yes.
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So why did they come, why did you all move here?
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My daddy-
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My uncle, which is my daddy.
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Right. Yeah, okay.
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He bought a farm here in Hillsborough.
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I see.
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So he was able-
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And so who worked on that farm?
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My dad and his wife and their children.
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Then when I grew up, I helped some.
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What kind of vegetables were grown on the farm?
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Tomatoes, corn, beans.
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So what would they do with that?
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Like, what was a-
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What was the general-
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Let's see now.
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Let me get something straight before I actually even go on.
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When were you born?
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I was born 1936.
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Okay. I'm just going to write that down.
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Oh I see, you're like 58.
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Right.
Yeah. Okay.
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I just had a birthday.
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You did?
In April.
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Oh. Great.
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So this was when you moved down here,
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that was, I guess in the early 1940s
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when you came down here?
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I think it was 1941.
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Okay.
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So that was, I guess, the start of the war,
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around the start of the war.
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Yes. Think so.
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Yeah. And so you came down here with the whole family
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because he was able to buy a farm here.
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Right.
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How far-?
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You told me before,
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what was the name of the county that you came from?
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Alamance County, but I was born in Orange County.
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Which is, okay.
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Place called Cedar Grove.
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That's the place where you were born?
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Right.
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Was that at home or was that in a hospital-?
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No, it was a community.
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Oh, I see.
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So I'm just wondering, and so then when you came down here,
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and you're about six years old when you came down here.
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And then they put you in school here?
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Yes.
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What do you remember about your school?
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It was fun.
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We went to a little country school with one classroom.
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I think it was like from first grade to
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seventh grade,
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but I only went there for two years, first and second grade.
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And then I was transferred to Hillsborough.
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Hillsborough-?
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To Central.
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And what was that like?
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It was a large school from first grade to 12.
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Oh. Did you go all the way through there?
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Yes I did.
I see.
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So you've been here-
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It sounds like you've been here all your life.
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Yes.
Okay. Wow.
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So what was the population of the students like
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at Hillsborough Central?
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I mean, was it segregated or, I mean assuming-
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Yeah, it was segregated.
Yeah.
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So was this the Black school?
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Black school.
The Hillsborough, okay.
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Can you tell me about the population in this area
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at the time when you moved here?
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It was small.
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I can't remember the figures, but it was small.
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The population was real small here then.
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Let's try something.
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[INTERRUPTION]
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Okay, go ahead.
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It was like
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you knew everybody that was in Hillsborough.
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So everybody knew you and was aware of what you were doing
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and-
Yes.
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Wow.
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So what do you remember about going to your,
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was there another White school nearby?
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Yes, it was another White school
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close to Central,
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which was Hillsborough High at the time.
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And then years later after they began building new schools,
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the old White school
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was named Grady Brown
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after the principal.
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And what about your school?
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And my school was burned down.
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It was burned down?
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Yes, in the-
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Fifties, late fifties.
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And then when they built back,
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they named it A L Stanback after the principal.
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Stanback?
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And it's an elementary school now.
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So what about the high school part?
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They built a new high school after integration.
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Oh, I see.
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And is that-?
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Orange High School.
Orange High School.
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Is that now an integrated high school?
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Right.
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Okay.
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How did the school burn down?
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Probably from the heating system.
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I see. So it caught fire?
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Right.
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So, okay.
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And you obviously you were out of school.
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Because it was a real old school, but it was real nice.
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What do you mean it was real nice?
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The structure on it had been kept nicely.
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So it was well- I see.
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But it was just old?
Right.
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I see. Huh.
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So what do you remember from those-
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Well, let me put it this way.
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Do you remember seeing White students?
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I mean, I don't know how close the schools were together,
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but did you pass each other much?
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Was there ever periods of interaction or-
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No. Not then.
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Sometime we would leave school, come into town for something
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and we would walk past the White school,
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but never had any problems.
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Was it sort of that you kept with your group
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and they kept with their group?
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Yes.
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And people really didn't kind of cross that line?
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No.
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And also basketball season,
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the Black school used the White gym
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and everything went along smooth.
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Was there a particular place
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where they needed to enter the gym?
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I mean was there-
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What am I trying to say?
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Were there any kind of rules about how people entered or?
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No.
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So what else do you remember about being in high school
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or even in grammar school and what that was like?
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Well, at that time, it wasn't too much really happening.
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Everybody got along real good.
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Really? You mean Whites and Black?
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Right.
Uh-huh. Wow.
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Well, when you say got along really good-
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You know, the Blacks didn't bother the White students
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and the Whites didn't bother the Black.
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Do you remember, was there a time when,
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that you remember ever
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learning that,
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that you were to stay apart?
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No.
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I never had that feeling
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because the community that I grew up in
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after we moved to Hillsborough,
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is a White community
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and the only children I had to play with was White children.
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Oh, when you were growing up?
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Right.
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Like in the farm area where your daddy bought the farm.
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Right.
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We were the only Black people out there.
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Wow.
And still is.
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Really?
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How did they respond to you when you moved in?
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Were they welcoming or were they standoffish or?
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No, they didn't standoff.
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They called my mother and daddy, aunt and uncle.
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They would spend the night with me, the children,
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and I'd go spend the night with them.
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We played together every day.
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Are you still friends with them?
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Right.
Oh.
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Do they still live around here or?
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Some of them.
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So your father obviously was farming.
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Right.
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Were they also farmers? What were they doing nearby?
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They were farmers too.
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I see.
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So did the families ever help each other out on the farm?
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Yes.
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Was there a lot of collective work that was done together?
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Right.
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How did that work?
We would work together.
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One farmer would come and help my daddy
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and then he would go and help them taking in tobacco.
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They would help each other.
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During the-
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Yeah, they had tobacco during that season.
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So you also grew tobacco on your farm?
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Right. Tobacco and corn.
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Is that farm still standing?
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Yes.
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Some of my daddy's farm has been sold
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and they are both deceased now.
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And I've had my home built on some of the land.
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Oh, I see.
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Oh, that's nice.
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What about other brothers and sisters?
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Have they also stayed in that area?
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No.
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Where are they all?
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The one that I call my sister,
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which is my uncle's daughter,
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I call him daddy.
Uh-huh.
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Well, they had one girl and she got married
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and moved into Durham County.
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So her part of land, she sold it.
277
00:14:34.710 --> 00:14:39.120
Oh, so you all inherited land together?
278
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:40.440
Right.
And divided it up?
279
00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:41.817
Right.
I see.
280
00:14:41.817 --> 00:14:43.650
And so you've kept your part of the land?
281
00:14:43.650 --> 00:14:44.670
Yeah, I kept mine.
282
00:14:44.670 --> 00:14:45.503
And that's where your house is.
283
00:14:45.503 --> 00:14:46.336
Right.
284
00:14:46.336 --> 00:14:49.470
And other brothers and sisters kept part of the land or-?
285
00:14:49.470 --> 00:14:52.683
Two of the brothers kept their land.
286
00:14:54.139 --> 00:14:58.800
When was this land, when did that happen?
287
00:14:58.800 --> 00:15:03.800
That they passed and you inherited?
288
00:15:04.020 --> 00:15:07.560
My daddy, which is my uncle.
289
00:15:07.560 --> 00:15:09.068
Right. No, when you refer to your daddy,
290
00:15:09.068 --> 00:15:09.909
I'll know that it's your-
291
00:15:09.909 --> 00:15:10.742
Right.
292
00:15:10.742 --> 00:15:11.575
Okay.
293
00:15:12.420 --> 00:15:15.063
He passed away in 1983.
294
00:15:16.944 --> 00:15:18.044
And so that's when-
295
00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:22.023
And his wife passed away in 1985.
296
00:15:23.220 --> 00:15:27.573
And I had my home built in 1974.
297
00:15:28.740 --> 00:15:29.820
Oh, I see.
298
00:15:29.820 --> 00:15:31.020
Okay, so you've been there-
299
00:15:31.020 --> 00:15:32.670
So I've been there ever since.
300
00:15:32.670 --> 00:15:33.503
I see.
301
00:15:34.710 --> 00:15:39.360
Do you call your aunt, your uncle's wife,
302
00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:40.397
do you call her your mother?
303
00:15:40.397 --> 00:15:41.763
Right. Right.
Yeah.
304
00:15:42.660 --> 00:15:43.510
Just making sure.
305
00:15:49.380 --> 00:15:53.247
So can you tell me what your life was like growing up?
306
00:15:53.247 --> 00:15:55.605
You said that you worked on the farm and you went to school.
307
00:15:55.605 --> 00:15:56.438
What-?
308
00:15:56.438 --> 00:15:57.543
It was good.
309
00:15:58.500 --> 00:16:01.050
I didn't do too much work in tobacco.
310
00:16:01.050 --> 00:16:01.883
You didn't?
311
00:16:03.506 --> 00:16:06.990
I was out there, but I didn't do no hard work.
312
00:16:06.990 --> 00:16:08.760
Who did the hard work?
313
00:16:08.760 --> 00:16:11.093
My mom and daddy.
The two of them really.
314
00:16:11.093 --> 00:16:13.233
Right, and their children,
315
00:16:14.280 --> 00:16:16.560
because I was the youngest one there.
316
00:16:16.560 --> 00:16:17.970
Oh.
317
00:16:17.970 --> 00:16:19.570
So I didn't have to work hard.
318
00:16:20.490 --> 00:16:24.240
But the other, their kids or your,
319
00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:25.620
do you call them your brothers and sisters?
320
00:16:25.620 --> 00:16:27.060
Yes.
But they did.
321
00:16:27.060 --> 00:16:28.290
They did.
322
00:16:28.290 --> 00:16:29.550
Did they ever resent you for that?
323
00:16:29.550 --> 00:16:33.300
Did they ever ask why they had to do all this hard work
324
00:16:33.300 --> 00:16:34.133
while you didn't?
325
00:16:34.133 --> 00:16:37.500
But their youngest son did. I think he was jealous.
326
00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:38.333
Oh, really?
327
00:16:38.333 --> 00:16:40.020
But you were still younger than their youngest son?
328
00:16:40.020 --> 00:16:40.853
Right.
329
00:16:41.880 --> 00:16:43.260
Did you all go to school together?
330
00:16:43.260 --> 00:16:45.690
Did you all go to the same school?
331
00:16:45.690 --> 00:16:46.523
Yes.
332
00:16:47.550 --> 00:16:49.620
Did everybody graduate from that school?
333
00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:51.273
No, I was the only one.
334
00:16:52.230 --> 00:16:53.880
So they stopped before then?
335
00:16:53.880 --> 00:16:54.713
They did.
336
00:16:54.713 --> 00:16:56.580
I see. To do farming or to move-
337
00:16:56.580 --> 00:16:58.410
To do farming.
338
00:16:58.410 --> 00:17:00.393
On that land or other places?
339
00:17:01.290 --> 00:17:05.280
On their daddy's land and other places.
340
00:17:05.280 --> 00:17:07.710
And then they got public jobs.
341
00:17:07.710 --> 00:17:10.113
Oh. Doing what sorts of things?
342
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:17.000
One was working at White's Furniture Factory for a while,
343
00:17:17.220 --> 00:17:18.453
here in Hillsborough.
344
00:17:19.320 --> 00:17:23.673
And then they also worked at a lumber plant.
345
00:17:25.110 --> 00:17:30.110
Then they worked some at mills, like in Alamance County.
346
00:17:35.235 --> 00:17:38.430
When they left school to take these jobs,
347
00:17:38.430 --> 00:17:41.970
did they leave home as well, or did they-
348
00:17:41.970 --> 00:17:46.440
One did. He moved to Connecticut.
349
00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:50.103
Oh. Why did he go to Connecticut?
350
00:17:51.210 --> 00:17:53.373
I don't know why he went to Connecticut.
351
00:17:54.330 --> 00:17:55.803
Probably to work.
352
00:17:57.450 --> 00:17:58.980
Then when he left Connecticut,
353
00:17:58.980 --> 00:18:01.650
he got a job in Cincinnati, Ohio.
354
00:18:01.650 --> 00:18:02.483
Wow.
355
00:18:02.483 --> 00:18:04.623
And he stayed there a good while.
356
00:18:05.886 --> 00:18:10.327
He came to Washington, on down to Maryland,
357
00:18:11.594 --> 00:18:13.252
and back home.
358
00:18:13.252 --> 00:18:15.227
So he kind of slowly made his way back?
359
00:18:15.227 --> 00:18:17.070
Right.
So is he back here now?
360
00:18:17.070 --> 00:18:18.783
Yes.
What's he doing now?
361
00:18:19.710 --> 00:18:22.203
He's retired now.
Oh. Huh.
362
00:18:23.520 --> 00:18:26.220
Why did you stay in school all the way through
363
00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:27.213
to graduating?
364
00:18:28.252 --> 00:18:31.270
Oh, it was something that I liked.
365
00:18:33.900 --> 00:18:34.733
Yeah.
366
00:18:37.860 --> 00:18:39.390
You said that you grew up,
367
00:18:39.390 --> 00:18:40.620
this neighborhood that you were in,
368
00:18:40.620 --> 00:18:42.540
this community was predominantly White,
369
00:18:42.540 --> 00:18:45.802
you were the only Black family, so your friends were White.
370
00:18:45.802 --> 00:18:48.960
What about when you went to school?
371
00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:52.470
I mean, I'm assuming you went to different schools, then?
372
00:18:52.470 --> 00:18:57.470
Well, as far as riding the school bus,
373
00:18:58.050 --> 00:19:02.493
I had to walk nearly a mile to meet the school bus.
374
00:19:04.080 --> 00:19:08.430
Because by me being the only Black child
375
00:19:08.430 --> 00:19:13.430
living on that road in that area,
376
00:19:13.830 --> 00:19:16.080
they didn't have a school bus to come by there.
377
00:19:16.080 --> 00:19:20.243
'Cause they said it wasn't enough children
378
00:19:20.243 --> 00:19:21.750
there in that section.
379
00:19:21.750 --> 00:19:23.820
To get a whole school bus for Black children?
380
00:19:23.820 --> 00:19:24.720
Right.
381
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:28.357
So I had to walk nearly a mile to meet the school bus.
382
00:19:28.357 --> 00:19:32.490
And the school bus that you met was a Black school bus?
383
00:19:32.490 --> 00:19:34.020
Right, right.
I see.
384
00:19:34.020 --> 00:19:37.350
So it was just that you happened, I see. So was that-
385
00:19:37.350 --> 00:19:40.290
Now when I got in the 11th grade,
386
00:19:40.290 --> 00:19:43.863
they started letting the school bus come by where I live.
387
00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:46.050
That Black school bus?
388
00:19:46.050 --> 00:19:47.700
The one that you used to have to walk to?
389
00:19:47.700 --> 00:19:48.810
Right.
They finally said,
390
00:19:48.810 --> 00:19:50.550
okay, we'll come to you.
Right.
391
00:19:50.550 --> 00:19:53.400
I wonder what changed. Do you know why they changed that?
392
00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:54.573
I don't know.
393
00:19:56.627 --> 00:19:59.397
I guess they felt sorry for me.
394
00:19:59.397 --> 00:20:04.397
How many years had you spent walking to the school bus?
395
00:20:05.190 --> 00:20:06.150
10.
396
00:20:06.150 --> 00:20:09.990
So was this basically since you started?
397
00:20:09.990 --> 00:20:12.000
Because 11th and 12th grade,
398
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.390
that's when I started riding the school bus
399
00:20:15.390 --> 00:20:17.010
in front of my door.
400
00:20:17.010 --> 00:20:17.843
Right.
401
00:20:17.843 --> 00:20:19.078
That must have been-
402
00:20:19.078 --> 00:20:20.070
Do you remember the first day
403
00:20:20.070 --> 00:20:22.170
that the school bus came to your door?
404
00:20:22.170 --> 00:20:23.346
I was happy.
405
00:20:23.346 --> 00:20:25.530
(both laughing)
406
00:20:25.530 --> 00:20:28.072
I bet you were. Uh-huh.
407
00:20:28.072 --> 00:20:30.240
There were days I didn't want to go to school
408
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:33.783
because like, during the winter months, it was so cold.
409
00:20:34.950 --> 00:20:37.440
And then I had to walk by myself.
410
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:40.290
Some of the days my daddy would walk with me
411
00:20:40.290 --> 00:20:41.763
to meet the school bus.
412
00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:46.320
Especially, I bet, when you were younger? Were those-
413
00:20:46.320 --> 00:20:47.463
When I was younger.
414
00:20:48.346 --> 00:20:51.021
And like, real rainy days,
415
00:20:51.021 --> 00:20:53.954
maybe a day I wouldn't go to school.
416
00:20:53.954 --> 00:20:55.020
Because the weather was so bad?
417
00:20:55.020 --> 00:20:56.280
Right.
Yeah.
418
00:20:56.280 --> 00:20:59.250
That's a long way to walk to catch a school bus.
419
00:20:59.250 --> 00:21:00.483
That's right.
Yeah.
420
00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:10.946
Was there a nearby Black community
421
00:21:10.946 --> 00:21:14.253
that was serviced by that bus?
422
00:21:15.150 --> 00:21:19.500
I mean, you said that the bus wouldn't go to pick you up
423
00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:20.850
'cause you were farther away
424
00:21:20.850 --> 00:21:23.639
and they wouldn't go as far as you lived to get you
425
00:21:23.639 --> 00:21:26.070
and you were living in this White community.
426
00:21:26.070 --> 00:21:31.070
Well, over on another road called St. Mary's Road,
427
00:21:32.040 --> 00:21:36.650
it was more Blacks lived over there than on my road.
428
00:21:37.487 --> 00:21:39.660
So the school bus went there
429
00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:40.923
and collected students from there?
430
00:21:40.923 --> 00:21:42.810
Yes. And then it would make a circle.
431
00:21:42.810 --> 00:21:44.910
And come around so it could pick me up.
432
00:21:44.910 --> 00:21:47.010
When they finally started picking you up?
433
00:21:47.010 --> 00:21:48.420
Right.
434
00:21:48.420 --> 00:21:51.055
Before they picked you up, where did you go
435
00:21:51.055 --> 00:21:51.888
to catch the bus?
436
00:21:51.888 --> 00:21:54.512
Where would you wait to catch the bus?
437
00:21:54.512 --> 00:21:57.510
At a church. New Sharon Church.
438
00:21:57.510 --> 00:21:59.640
Oh, which is the church that you go to now?
439
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:01.650
No, it's a White church.
440
00:22:01.650 --> 00:22:03.210
Oh.
441
00:22:03.210 --> 00:22:06.063
But did you tell me earlier when we were talking-
442
00:22:07.020 --> 00:22:10.467
I go to Lipscomb Grove Baptist Church.
443
00:22:10.467 --> 00:22:11.373
Oh, okay.
444
00:22:12.450 --> 00:22:14.640
I'm just trying to remember why.
445
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:19.640
Now, New Sharon Church is a all White church
446
00:22:20.040 --> 00:22:23.577
and they named the road I live on after this church.
447
00:22:23.577 --> 00:22:24.690
Oh, okay.
448
00:22:24.690 --> 00:22:25.890
That's why I knew the New Sharon.
449
00:22:25.890 --> 00:22:30.030
You told me, that was your address, not your church.
450
00:22:30.030 --> 00:22:31.170
(laughing) Okay.
451
00:22:31.170 --> 00:22:35.280
So was it that you lived about a mile down on that road
452
00:22:35.280 --> 00:22:36.113
from the church?
453
00:22:36.113 --> 00:22:37.140
Yes.
Okay.
454
00:22:37.140 --> 00:22:39.840
But when you were growing up, you didn't attend that church?
455
00:22:39.840 --> 00:22:41.487
No I didn't.
Cause it was a White church.
456
00:22:41.487 --> 00:22:42.320
What church did you attend?
457
00:22:42.320 --> 00:22:45.153
But we would sometimes be invited to come.
458
00:22:45.990 --> 00:22:48.120
Your family would be?
Yes.
459
00:22:48.120 --> 00:22:49.740
Who would invite you?
460
00:22:49.740 --> 00:22:50.940
Some of the members.
461
00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:55.940
Because we knew most of the members that go to that church
462
00:22:56.310 --> 00:22:59.384
and they would invite us sometime
463
00:22:59.384 --> 00:23:03.276
to come to service there.
464
00:23:03.276 --> 00:23:05.640
Was that for particular occasions
465
00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:07.770
or as a gesture of friendship or?
466
00:23:07.770 --> 00:23:09.483
Particular occasions.
467
00:23:11.070 --> 00:23:13.020
I see. What kind of occasions?
468
00:23:13.020 --> 00:23:17.073
Like weddings and sometime they have homecomings.
469
00:23:18.447 --> 00:23:20.620
They knew my mother liked to go to church
470
00:23:22.230 --> 00:23:27.230
and she helped a lot of people in their homes
471
00:23:28.710 --> 00:23:30.033
that go to church there.
472
00:23:31.110 --> 00:23:32.400
So they knew her pretty well?
473
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:33.720
Right.
474
00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:36.543
What about your neighbors, your White neighbors?
475
00:23:37.825 --> 00:23:39.060
Did they go to that church?
476
00:23:39.060 --> 00:23:39.893
Yes.
I see.
477
00:23:40.990 --> 00:23:44.130
So were they sometimes the ones that would invite you?
478
00:23:44.130 --> 00:23:47.298
Yes.
What would they do?
479
00:23:47.298 --> 00:23:51.750
Did those white neighbors,
480
00:23:51.750 --> 00:23:54.480
I know that you said that you all helped each other
481
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:56.433
with the farm work.
482
00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:01.830
Would those White neighbors
483
00:24:01.830 --> 00:24:04.350
also socialize with your parents?
484
00:24:04.350 --> 00:24:05.250
Yes.
485
00:24:05.250 --> 00:24:07.320
'Cause I know that you said that you did with their kids.
486
00:24:07.320 --> 00:24:08.153
Yes.
487
00:24:08.153 --> 00:24:11.640
Did your parents and the parents of your friends?
488
00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:14.910
They would take time to come to my mother's house.
489
00:24:14.910 --> 00:24:15.910
They'd sit and talk.
490
00:24:16.890 --> 00:24:19.000
Then my mother would go to their house
491
00:24:20.719 --> 00:24:23.553
when work was slow and they would sit and talk.
492
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:30.060
What was the name of your church that you went to
493
00:24:30.060 --> 00:24:31.460
when you were growing up?
494
00:24:33.660 --> 00:24:35.811
I went to my mother's church,
495
00:24:35.811 --> 00:24:39.388
which is a primitive Baptist church.
496
00:24:39.388 --> 00:24:44.370
They tell me that's the oldest religion.
497
00:24:44.370 --> 00:24:45.213
It is.
498
00:24:47.185 --> 00:24:49.785
And so most of my family are members at that church.
499
00:24:54.300 --> 00:24:55.623
Still?
Still.
500
00:24:57.570 --> 00:25:01.920
But after I grew up, I started going to the other church,
501
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:05.253
which is called Lipscomb Grove Baptist Church.
502
00:25:06.540 --> 00:25:07.590
Why did you switch?
503
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:09.713
Well,
504
00:25:09.713 --> 00:25:14.713
I like singing in the choir,
505
00:25:15.363 --> 00:25:17.797
ushering
506
00:25:17.797 --> 00:25:19.470
and doing different things,
507
00:25:19.470 --> 00:25:21.870
and at the primitive Baptist church,
508
00:25:21.870 --> 00:25:25.703
they didn't have a choir or ushers.
509
00:25:25.703 --> 00:25:27.173
I'm sorry, the term you used was ushers?
510
00:25:27.173 --> 00:25:28.533
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
511
00:25:30.090 --> 00:25:32.400
I see. And you wanted, you wanted those?
512
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:33.233
Right.
513
00:25:33.233 --> 00:25:34.980
So you sing in the choir now?
514
00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:36.423
Sometimes.
Uh-huh.
515
00:25:38.910 --> 00:25:39.743
Yeah.
516
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:43.890
Did your family-
517
00:25:43.890 --> 00:25:46.503
But we still go to my mother's church.
518
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:52.640
Whenever they have homecoming, we take a basket.
519
00:25:52.830 --> 00:25:54.888
Oh, really?
Of food.
520
00:25:54.888 --> 00:25:58.503
And about twice a year we go.
521
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:03.150
Did any of your family members
522
00:26:03.150 --> 00:26:07.590
who still belong to that church, did they object at all
523
00:26:07.590 --> 00:26:09.420
when you decided to change churches,
524
00:26:09.420 --> 00:26:11.580
did they question you about it or?
525
00:26:11.580 --> 00:26:16.580
Oh. They just said, well, don't forget us.
526
00:26:17.280 --> 00:26:18.420
Come back to see us.
527
00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:19.860
And so you do?
Right.
528
00:26:19.860 --> 00:26:20.743
Yeah.
529
00:26:20.743 --> 00:26:25.590
Where was this primitive Baptist church located?
530
00:26:25.590 --> 00:26:27.420
The primitive Baptist?
Yeah.
531
00:26:27.420 --> 00:26:29.463
In Cedar Grove, North Carolina.
532
00:26:30.630 --> 00:26:31.463
Oh. I see.
533
00:26:32.610 --> 00:26:36.210
That's about, I would say about 15 miles
534
00:26:36.210 --> 00:26:37.443
from where I live now.
535
00:26:38.603 --> 00:26:41.493
So how did you get there when you,
536
00:26:42.900 --> 00:26:45.780
when you were growing up, did you go there every Sunday or?
537
00:26:45.780 --> 00:26:49.623
Yes, when I was small, my mother made me go.
538
00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:58.880
My mother's brother would take us to church.
539
00:27:02.070 --> 00:27:05.730
Either when my daddy had time, he would take us.
540
00:27:05.730 --> 00:27:07.230
So he didn't always go to church?
541
00:27:07.230 --> 00:27:08.610
No, he didn't.
Oh, okay.
542
00:27:08.610 --> 00:27:11.130
So this was really your mother was-
543
00:27:11.130 --> 00:27:12.990
He always liked to stay home.
544
00:27:12.990 --> 00:27:14.730
Oh.
(both laughing)
545
00:27:14.730 --> 00:27:17.310
So she couldn't make him go.
Uh-uh.
546
00:27:17.310 --> 00:27:18.143
I see.
547
00:27:19.116 --> 00:27:19.949
Hmm.
548
00:27:23.040 --> 00:27:24.840
And was that church in a Black community?
549
00:27:24.840 --> 00:27:27.153
Was that-
Yes.
550
00:27:34.830 --> 00:27:35.712
Trying to think,
551
00:27:35.712 --> 00:27:39.462
there was something else I was going to ask you.
552
00:27:42.272 --> 00:27:45.113
Oh, I know, I wanted to just get back to something again.
553
00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:53.165
When you were in school,
554
00:27:53.165 --> 00:27:56.790
I'm assuming you made friends with people,
555
00:27:56.790 --> 00:27:59.518
with students in school as well, when you were growing up.
556
00:27:59.518 --> 00:28:00.351
Right.
557
00:28:00.351 --> 00:28:01.500
So it sounds like you had both Black friends
558
00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:02.900
and White friends.
Right.
559
00:28:03.772 --> 00:28:08.772
Would you ever get together with them together?
560
00:28:09.120 --> 00:28:12.720
Would you ever get together with your White friends
561
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:14.190
and your Black friends together?
562
00:28:14.190 --> 00:28:15.270
Yes.
563
00:28:15.270 --> 00:28:16.620
So everybody played together?
564
00:28:16.620 --> 00:28:18.690
Yes.
Into high school as well?
565
00:28:18.690 --> 00:28:20.850
Yes.
Uh-huh. Wow.
566
00:28:20.850 --> 00:28:23.410
Now, sometime now when my White friends
567
00:28:25.110 --> 00:28:28.920
come to visit their parents, the ones that live out of town,
568
00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:31.083
they always stop by to see me.
569
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:35.460
And same thing with your friends that you knew
570
00:28:35.460 --> 00:28:37.023
from your school?
Yes.
571
00:28:43.769 --> 00:28:47.740
What do you remember, or do you remember
572
00:28:49.740 --> 00:28:53.370
much about your grandparents or where they're from?
573
00:28:53.370 --> 00:28:54.783
Not too much.
574
00:28:55.650 --> 00:28:59.103
My grandmother was Cherokee Indian.
575
00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:04.563
Full Cherokee Indian?
Full Cherokee Indian.
576
00:29:05.490 --> 00:29:10.490
And I can't remember where she came from.
577
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:15.520
And my grandfather, he was Scottish
578
00:29:17.010 --> 00:29:18.840
and I don't know how he get here.
579
00:29:18.840 --> 00:29:19.673
Huh.
580
00:29:23.902 --> 00:29:25.200
He was full Scottish?
581
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:27.810
Right. I don't even know how they met.
582
00:29:27.810 --> 00:29:28.643
Huh.
583
00:29:29.670 --> 00:29:30.503
But I have-
584
00:29:30.503 --> 00:29:31.790
And this is on your father-
585
00:29:32.910 --> 00:29:35.550
This was my real parents.
Okay.
586
00:29:35.550 --> 00:29:38.850
My real mother's mother and daddy.
587
00:29:38.850 --> 00:29:39.683
Okay.
588
00:29:41.487 --> 00:29:44.640
And you don't know how they met or-
589
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.850
I was real small when my grandmother died
590
00:29:50.340 --> 00:29:53.643
and my grandfather died before I was born.
591
00:29:56.160 --> 00:30:00.390
But I have cousins that know their whole history of them.
592
00:30:00.390 --> 00:30:02.423
Oh, really?
Yes.
593
00:30:02.423 --> 00:30:06.063
And you just haven't, I see. Wow.
594
00:30:06.959 --> 00:30:08.903
Have they told you that history before?
595
00:30:10.380 --> 00:30:12.363
They hadn't told me too much.
596
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:18.630
My cousin is supposed to come down this summer.
597
00:30:18.630 --> 00:30:20.910
And she's supposed to bring me
598
00:30:20.910 --> 00:30:24.570
some information about my grandparents.
599
00:30:24.570 --> 00:30:27.960
How they got here and how they met.
600
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:29.790
So that was on your mother's side?
601
00:30:29.790 --> 00:30:30.687
Right.
602
00:30:30.687 --> 00:30:35.013
And so then what about on your father's side?
603
00:30:36.220 --> 00:30:37.770
Oh, I didn't know them.
604
00:30:39.145 --> 00:30:40.703
Wow.
605
00:30:40.703 --> 00:30:44.370
Do you know what your grandparents on your mother's side did
606
00:30:44.370 --> 00:30:45.203
for a living?
607
00:30:46.050 --> 00:30:46.883
No, I don't.
608
00:30:47.760 --> 00:30:51.030
Pretty much that she was Cherokee and he was Scottish.
609
00:30:51.030 --> 00:30:55.683
He died before she did. Long, long time before she did.
610
00:30:55.683 --> 00:31:00.683
And I think she helped her daughters
611
00:31:00.683 --> 00:31:02.640
on the farm.
612
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:03.473
I see.
613
00:31:04.470 --> 00:31:07.290
Which were my mother's sister's.
614
00:31:07.290 --> 00:31:10.558
Right. And was that near Alamance?
615
00:31:10.558 --> 00:31:12.063
Right.
Or in Alamance.
616
00:31:12.063 --> 00:31:14.670
Near Alamance County.
Okay.
617
00:31:14.670 --> 00:31:18.840
It was on the Orange County and Alamance County line.
618
00:31:18.840 --> 00:31:23.731
So your real mother's
619
00:31:23.731 --> 00:31:27.539
sisters or your real mother, they had a-
620
00:31:27.539 --> 00:31:31.950
What did your parents, before they passed,
621
00:31:31.950 --> 00:31:34.230
what did they do, were they also farmers?
622
00:31:34.230 --> 00:31:35.760
They were farmers too.
623
00:31:35.760 --> 00:31:37.170
Did they own their own farm?
624
00:31:37.170 --> 00:31:38.163
Yes.
Oh.
625
00:31:40.710 --> 00:31:42.147
So, oh right.
626
00:31:42.147 --> 00:31:45.300
And I guess you said this was your mother's brother,
627
00:31:45.300 --> 00:31:46.710
who is your father?
Right.
628
00:31:46.710 --> 00:31:48.600
That raised me.
Who raised you.
629
00:31:48.600 --> 00:31:49.973
Yes.
Okay.
630
00:31:49.973 --> 00:31:52.980
So were they all raised on a farm together?
631
00:31:52.980 --> 00:31:53.813
Yes.
632
00:31:53.813 --> 00:31:56.490
That your grandparents owned?
633
00:31:56.490 --> 00:31:58.120
Right.
I see. Okay.
634
00:31:58.120 --> 00:32:03.120
And so there's been farming for, I guess for,
635
00:32:03.390 --> 00:32:06.300
I mean, you've owned farms in the family for,
636
00:32:06.300 --> 00:32:09.780
sounds like two, I guess if you count you,
637
00:32:09.780 --> 00:32:13.350
I guess that'd be your third generation owning a farm?
638
00:32:13.350 --> 00:32:15.240
I think so.
Does that sound right?
639
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:18.030
It sounds right.
(both laughing)
640
00:32:18.030 --> 00:32:20.411
Just trying to get that straight.
641
00:32:20.411 --> 00:32:22.413
Wow. So-
642
00:32:24.330 --> 00:32:25.163
Oh, there was something else
643
00:32:25.163 --> 00:32:26.730
I was going to ask you about that.
644
00:32:31.710 --> 00:32:34.950
Okay, let me look at some of these questions.
645
00:32:36.270 --> 00:32:38.940
So as far as when you grew up in your household,
646
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:40.380
sounds like there were about,
647
00:32:40.380 --> 00:32:41.670
including your brothers and sisters,
648
00:32:41.670 --> 00:32:43.890
about eight or 10 of you,
649
00:32:43.890 --> 00:32:45.270
I guess if you include your parents.
650
00:32:45.270 --> 00:32:47.053
Yes.
Is that right, okay.
651
00:33:00.170 --> 00:33:02.070
In your community that you grew up in,
652
00:33:03.060 --> 00:33:08.060
can you think of who were some of the most important people
653
00:33:08.111 --> 00:33:10.203
that you knew of in the community?
654
00:33:13.140 --> 00:33:15.603
If there were people that stand out in your mind.
655
00:33:18.810 --> 00:33:21.420
You mean White families?
656
00:33:21.420 --> 00:33:22.893
Or Black, I mean.
657
00:33:29.340 --> 00:33:30.173
Yes.
658
00:33:32.100 --> 00:33:33.813
This is a Black family.
659
00:33:35.070 --> 00:33:36.993
Mr. Charlie Thompson.
660
00:33:40.080 --> 00:33:42.770
And what was important about him?
661
00:33:43.869 --> 00:33:47.080
Well, he had a dairy farm
662
00:33:47.940 --> 00:33:52.564
and he also raised lots of chickens
663
00:33:52.564 --> 00:33:54.789
and sold eggs.
664
00:33:54.789 --> 00:33:59.780
So that's where we would get eggs and chickens from
665
00:34:00.653 --> 00:34:01.486
and milk.
666
00:34:04.715 --> 00:34:06.360
And were you friends with him?
667
00:34:06.360 --> 00:34:07.230
Yes.
668
00:34:07.230 --> 00:34:09.390
So did he get produce from you
669
00:34:09.390 --> 00:34:12.060
during your harvest would he-
670
00:34:12.060 --> 00:34:15.870
No. We just only got produce from him.
671
00:34:15.870 --> 00:34:17.700
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
672
00:34:17.700 --> 00:34:19.290
I see.
673
00:34:19.290 --> 00:34:20.880
And was he sort of well known
674
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:22.380
or well respected in the community?
675
00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:23.700
Yes.
676
00:34:23.700 --> 00:34:25.860
So sounds he did well for himself?
677
00:34:25.860 --> 00:34:27.030
Right.
678
00:34:27.030 --> 00:34:30.930
He and his wife were just like parents to me.
679
00:34:30.930 --> 00:34:31.763
Oh, really?
680
00:34:32.794 --> 00:34:34.500
So you saw them often?
Yeah.
681
00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:36.000
What would you do with them?
682
00:34:36.900 --> 00:34:39.510
I'd go and spend weekends with them.
683
00:34:39.510 --> 00:34:40.410
Oh, really?
684
00:34:40.410 --> 00:34:43.510
Because they had-
685
00:34:45.301 --> 00:34:50.280
Mr. Charlie raised two of his nieces.
686
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:53.520
Their parents died when they were small.
687
00:34:53.520 --> 00:34:55.710
And so we were friends too.
688
00:34:55.710 --> 00:34:57.273
You and his nieces?
Right.
689
00:34:58.560 --> 00:35:00.088
I see. So they were around your age?
690
00:35:00.088 --> 00:35:01.230
Right.
691
00:35:01.230 --> 00:35:02.820
Did they go to the same school as you did?
692
00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:04.080
Yes.
Okay.
693
00:35:04.080 --> 00:35:06.390
Do you still know them?
Uh-huh.
694
00:35:06.390 --> 00:35:07.260
So they're still around here?
695
00:35:07.260 --> 00:35:08.705
Yes. We're still friends.
696
00:35:08.705 --> 00:35:11.610
What are they doing around here?
697
00:35:11.610 --> 00:35:14.530
One of the girls work as a home health nurse
698
00:35:15.630 --> 00:35:16.563
in Chapel Hill.
699
00:35:18.270 --> 00:35:22.237
And the other girl work at Blue Cross and Blue Shield.
700
00:35:22.237 --> 00:35:23.308
Oh, yeah.
701
00:35:23.308 --> 00:35:24.975
In Durham.
Yeah.
702
00:35:28.720 --> 00:35:33.210
Did you ever travel very much when you were growing up?
703
00:35:33.210 --> 00:35:35.118
Did you all visit folks anywhere else?
704
00:35:35.118 --> 00:35:38.253
No, we visit people, well,
705
00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:43.200
right around here in North Carolina,
706
00:35:43.200 --> 00:35:45.480
we never did go out of town.
707
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:49.830
Some weekends, my mother and I would catch the train
708
00:35:49.830 --> 00:35:53.910
and go to Greensboro where I have relatives.
709
00:35:53.910 --> 00:35:55.080
And you'd visit them-
710
00:35:55.080 --> 00:35:58.080
Yes.
For a few days or?
711
00:35:58.080 --> 00:35:59.283
Just for the weekend.
712
00:36:00.288 --> 00:36:01.121
Right.
713
00:36:01.121 --> 00:36:03.240
And then they would come down here
714
00:36:03.240 --> 00:36:06.690
and spend a week during the summer every year.
715
00:36:06.690 --> 00:36:08.340
On the farm with you?
Right.
716
00:36:09.270 --> 00:36:11.013
What did they do in Greensboro?
717
00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:14.097
I think they worked in a mill.
718
00:36:17.697 --> 00:36:20.643
And this was my grandmother's sister.
719
00:36:21.720 --> 00:36:25.500
Your grandmother's sister.
720
00:36:25.500 --> 00:36:26.520
In Greensboro.
721
00:36:26.520 --> 00:36:27.870
On your mother's, well-
722
00:36:27.870 --> 00:36:28.890
On my mother's side.
723
00:36:28.890 --> 00:36:30.411
On your real mother or on your-
724
00:36:30.411 --> 00:36:31.244
My real mother.
725
00:36:31.244 --> 00:36:32.077
Oh, okay.
726
00:36:32.077 --> 00:36:35.296
So she was Cherokee as well, okay.
727
00:36:35.296 --> 00:36:36.129
Wow.
728
00:36:38.700 --> 00:36:41.730
What was it like traveling from here to Greensboro?
729
00:36:41.730 --> 00:36:46.230
It was fun because we got to ride the train.
730
00:36:46.230 --> 00:36:48.880
Did you ride in special cars on the train?
731
00:36:48.880 --> 00:36:49.713
No.
732
00:36:51.396 --> 00:36:52.229
Huh.
733
00:36:53.130 --> 00:36:56.880
But were the trains segregated when you were?
734
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:01.880
I'm sure it was, 'cause I was about eight, nine years old.
735
00:37:03.270 --> 00:37:04.560
Right.
736
00:37:04.560 --> 00:37:07.770
So, I mean, I guess they called them the Jim Crow cars.
737
00:37:07.770 --> 00:37:09.693
Did you go in those?
738
00:37:10.665 --> 00:37:14.250
I mean, were you aware of other White passengers
739
00:37:14.250 --> 00:37:15.482
in different parts of the train?
740
00:37:15.482 --> 00:37:16.732
Right, right.
741
00:37:18.700 --> 00:37:20.223
Okay. And did that ever-
742
00:37:23.790 --> 00:37:24.623
Okay, good.
743
00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:30.210
Did it ever leave an impression on you?
744
00:37:30.210 --> 00:37:35.210
Did you ever sort of say "why are we riding here
745
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:37.170
or why are we riding separately from them?"
746
00:37:37.170 --> 00:37:40.110
On the train I never did say,
747
00:37:40.110 --> 00:37:45.110
but riding the bus, I would ask my mother
748
00:37:45.510 --> 00:37:49.350
why we always had to ride in the back.
749
00:37:49.350 --> 00:37:53.220
Either why would we have to stand
750
00:37:53.220 --> 00:37:56.253
if the seats was filled up.
751
00:37:57.390 --> 00:37:58.830
And what would she say?
752
00:37:58.830 --> 00:38:03.813
And she would just say, well, we'll just have to stand up.
753
00:38:08.185 --> 00:38:11.430
So she never really-
754
00:38:11.430 --> 00:38:13.000
Given me a good answer.
755
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:16.042
(both laughing)
756
00:38:16.042 --> 00:38:17.640
So did you keep wondering,
757
00:38:17.640 --> 00:38:20.760
did you ever sort of make sense of it yourself?
758
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:23.250
Well, I just always thought,
759
00:38:23.250 --> 00:38:25.727
well, maybe we can't sit down.
760
00:38:28.050 --> 00:38:30.090
Just, that was it, you just sort of thought, okay we-
761
00:38:30.090 --> 00:38:31.620
Yeah, I just passed it over.
762
00:38:31.620 --> 00:38:32.453
Right.
763
00:38:36.720 --> 00:38:37.553
It doesn't sound like
764
00:38:37.553 --> 00:38:40.440
you ever got really indignant about it.
765
00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:41.273
I didn't.
766
00:38:42.150 --> 00:38:43.877
You just thought, okay, this is what we have to do.
767
00:38:43.877 --> 00:38:44.943
That's right.
768
00:38:46.470 --> 00:38:49.770
Is that just generally how things were,
769
00:38:49.770 --> 00:38:53.010
I mean, as far as going to a separate school
770
00:38:53.010 --> 00:38:54.570
from your White friends
771
00:38:54.570 --> 00:38:56.973
or your White, what were you going to say?
772
00:38:58.110 --> 00:39:01.893
Well, my history teacher always told us,
773
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:06.963
I think I was in the 11th grade.
774
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:10.530
She said before the end of my time,
775
00:39:10.530 --> 00:39:15.530
she said, "I feel like Black and White schools
776
00:39:16.567 --> 00:39:17.850
will come together."
777
00:39:17.850 --> 00:39:18.810
Hmm.
778
00:39:18.810 --> 00:39:21.810
And then let's see, what year was that about?
779
00:39:21.810 --> 00:39:24.371
I graduated in 1955.
780
00:39:24.371 --> 00:39:25.360
Oh, okay.
781
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:28.770
And then Brown decision came down in 1954.
782
00:39:28.770 --> 00:39:29.603
Right.
783
00:39:29.603 --> 00:39:31.830
Do you remember when that happened?
784
00:39:31.830 --> 00:39:32.987
When, integration?
Mm-hmm.
785
00:39:32.987 --> 00:39:34.113
Yes, I do.
786
00:39:35.135 --> 00:39:37.785
Can you describe what you remember about that time?
787
00:39:40.500 --> 00:39:45.500
My boys, I have two sons and they were little boys then.
788
00:39:46.890 --> 00:39:51.480
So you had kids when you were, okay.
789
00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:54.240
Do you remember about what year that was?
790
00:39:54.240 --> 00:39:55.920
When they were in school?
791
00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:57.630
I mean, when they were small kids?
792
00:39:57.630 --> 00:39:58.463
Yeah.
793
00:39:59.340 --> 00:40:01.713
It was in the sixties.
794
00:40:04.890 --> 00:40:06.753
It was real exciting to them.
795
00:40:10.140 --> 00:40:13.323
I think they were chosen to ride the school bus.
796
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:16.350
I was living here in Hillsborough then.
797
00:40:18.090 --> 00:40:20.130
And it was real exciting to them
798
00:40:20.130 --> 00:40:22.740
because they were chosen to ride the school bus
799
00:40:22.740 --> 00:40:24.513
with the White kids.
800
00:40:26.216 --> 00:40:29.880
And I think they rode for a couple of days.
801
00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:34.880
And then when I get 'em ready to go to school,
802
00:40:36.270 --> 00:40:39.577
instead of them getting on the school bus,
803
00:40:40.740 --> 00:40:42.303
they would walk to school.
804
00:40:43.500 --> 00:40:45.753
Which was how far away?
805
00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:49.050
Not very far.
806
00:40:49.050 --> 00:40:51.570
Why did they walk instead of take the bus?
807
00:40:51.570 --> 00:40:54.015
They thought it was more fun to walk.
808
00:40:54.015 --> 00:40:54.848
Oh.
809
00:40:54.848 --> 00:40:58.140
Because they would be with their friends,
810
00:40:58.140 --> 00:40:59.910
be walking with their friends.
811
00:40:59.910 --> 00:41:02.560
Were those friends not able to ride the school bus?
812
00:41:03.870 --> 00:41:05.719
They could have, they just chose to walk.
813
00:41:05.719 --> 00:41:07.781
And so they want to be their friends.
814
00:41:07.781 --> 00:41:08.614
Right.
815
00:41:08.614 --> 00:41:12.390
But it wasn't because of conflicts on the bus?
816
00:41:12.390 --> 00:41:13.530
No.
Oh, okay.
817
00:41:13.530 --> 00:41:14.400
I thought when you first said that,
818
00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:15.750
that they'd been excited at first,
819
00:41:15.750 --> 00:41:17.910
they rode it a couple times and then didn't anymore.
820
00:41:17.910 --> 00:41:20.899
But it wasn't because there were problems on the bus.
821
00:41:20.899 --> 00:41:21.732
No, no problems.
822
00:41:21.732 --> 00:41:23.834
But they were excited that they had the opportunity.
823
00:41:23.834 --> 00:41:26.220
I don't remember, in my area,
824
00:41:26.220 --> 00:41:30.450
I don't remember where they had problems on the bus.
825
00:41:30.450 --> 00:41:32.370
It was probably names called,
826
00:41:32.370 --> 00:41:35.553
but there were no fights, anything like that.
827
00:41:36.690 --> 00:41:39.780
But when I was out of town,
828
00:41:39.780 --> 00:41:43.960
at the time I was in Virginia on vacation
829
00:41:44.899 --> 00:41:48.243
and I think they had a big fight at the high school.
830
00:41:49.200 --> 00:41:51.681
When your boys were young or?
831
00:41:51.681 --> 00:41:53.160
They were still young.
832
00:41:53.160 --> 00:41:54.720
Now tell me again, was this high school,
833
00:41:54.720 --> 00:41:58.110
now this became the Central integrated high school?
834
00:41:58.110 --> 00:41:59.280
No, Orange High.
835
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:00.783
Orange High.
Right.
836
00:42:03.630 --> 00:42:05.130
But your boys were still in Elementary?
837
00:42:05.130 --> 00:42:06.510
In Elementary.
838
00:42:06.510 --> 00:42:07.383
Which was?
839
00:42:08.310 --> 00:42:10.120
Central. They were going to Central.
840
00:42:10.120 --> 00:42:11.760
Okay.
Elementary.
841
00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:14.043
And that was before Central burned down?
842
00:42:15.990 --> 00:42:18.840
Yeah, it was before Central burned down,
843
00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:20.820
but they had built back.
844
00:42:20.820 --> 00:42:23.100
They had built a new Central school.
845
00:42:23.100 --> 00:42:24.690
Oh.
Yeah.
846
00:42:24.690 --> 00:42:28.976
And then they built a new Central Elementary School too.
847
00:42:28.976 --> 00:42:30.330
Okay.
848
00:42:30.330 --> 00:42:33.930
Which is now used for kindergarten.
849
00:42:33.930 --> 00:42:36.603
Oh.
First grade, second.
850
00:42:38.471 --> 00:42:40.350
Up to about fifth grade, I think.
851
00:42:40.350 --> 00:42:41.700
So was the elementary school
852
00:42:41.700 --> 00:42:44.640
that your boys attended integrated?
853
00:42:44.640 --> 00:42:47.490
So Orange High School was,
Yes.
854
00:42:47.490 --> 00:42:49.260
Was the elementary school as well?
855
00:42:49.260 --> 00:42:50.160
Yes.
Okay.
856
00:42:50.160 --> 00:42:53.070
And so that was the bus that they drove in
857
00:42:53.070 --> 00:42:54.720
when it was first became integrated.
858
00:42:54.720 --> 00:42:55.553
Right.
859
00:42:55.553 --> 00:42:56.640
And then they chose to walk anyway
860
00:42:56.640 --> 00:42:58.080
because they wanted to be with everybody.
861
00:42:58.080 --> 00:43:01.173
Okay, so getting back to your story, sorry.
862
00:43:03.300 --> 00:43:07.050
So you were in Virginia and there was, you said.
863
00:43:07.050 --> 00:43:08.820
It was a fight.
864
00:43:08.820 --> 00:43:09.653
This was in the early sixties?
865
00:43:09.653 --> 00:43:10.486
Serious.
866
00:43:12.120 --> 00:43:14.460
I think it was real serious.
867
00:43:14.460 --> 00:43:16.680
Do you remember what happened?
868
00:43:16.680 --> 00:43:19.500
I don't really remember what happened
869
00:43:19.500 --> 00:43:21.093
and how it got started.
870
00:43:22.350 --> 00:43:26.430
Do you remember how your White neighbors reacted
871
00:43:26.430 --> 00:43:29.493
when there was integration?
872
00:43:30.660 --> 00:43:32.280
Did you ever talk about it with them?
873
00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:34.923
No, I never did talk about it with them.
874
00:43:36.447 --> 00:43:38.793
But to me, they didn't seem angry.
875
00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:43.650
So they didn't act like the sky was falling
876
00:43:43.650 --> 00:43:45.210
No.
Or something?
877
00:43:45.210 --> 00:43:48.653
The way some did.
(both laughing)
878
00:43:53.190 --> 00:43:55.464
So did you ever talk about those kinds of things
879
00:43:55.464 --> 00:43:57.093
with your White friends?
880
00:43:58.380 --> 00:44:00.060
No, I never did.
881
00:44:00.060 --> 00:44:01.080
I mean, like earlier,
882
00:44:01.080 --> 00:44:05.411
when you'd say to your mother, why are we standing?
883
00:44:05.411 --> 00:44:06.244
Right.
884
00:44:06.244 --> 00:44:07.530
And she wouldn't really give you an answer.
885
00:44:07.530 --> 00:44:09.030
Did you ever talk to your-
886
00:44:09.030 --> 00:44:10.560
No, I never did.
887
00:44:10.560 --> 00:44:12.720
It was just something that kind of,
888
00:44:12.720 --> 00:44:14.970
you went to your separate schools and if you,
889
00:44:14.970 --> 00:44:16.590
did you ever try to ride the bus together?
890
00:44:16.590 --> 00:44:18.180
I mean, was there ever a time
891
00:44:18.180 --> 00:44:20.160
or say if you were going to go
892
00:44:20.160 --> 00:44:22.020
and I don't know if you ever went to the movies
893
00:44:22.020 --> 00:44:23.731
when you were younger.
Yes.
894
00:44:23.731 --> 00:44:25.280
Did you go to the movies?
Yes, I did.
895
00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:27.930
And did you have to, I'm assuming-
896
00:44:27.930 --> 00:44:30.903
They had a theater here in Hillsborough.
897
00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:36.800
They had the ground floor for the Whites.
898
00:44:37.590 --> 00:44:40.830
Blacks had to go upstairs, but we was in the same building.
899
00:44:40.830 --> 00:44:41.673
Right.
900
00:44:43.950 --> 00:44:48.180
Did you ever go with White friends
901
00:44:48.180 --> 00:44:51.397
and sort of say to each other, "okay,
902
00:44:51.397 --> 00:44:52.380
I'll see you at the end of the movie."
903
00:44:52.380 --> 00:44:55.950
Did you ever go to the movies together?
904
00:44:55.950 --> 00:44:57.453
At a couple of times, I did.
905
00:44:58.710 --> 00:44:59.940
And you would just, again, sit-
906
00:44:59.940 --> 00:45:02.160
Because my school buddy,
907
00:45:02.160 --> 00:45:06.810
she would go to the movie every Saturday afternoon.
908
00:45:06.810 --> 00:45:11.810
So I had to come in town with my White neighbor's children.
909
00:45:13.050 --> 00:45:15.330
Like drive into town?
Right.
910
00:45:15.330 --> 00:45:20.253
So when we get to the theater, they go in and I go upstairs.
911
00:45:21.420 --> 00:45:23.790
And then you'd meet back out at the end of the movie?
912
00:45:23.790 --> 00:45:25.260
Right.
And talk about the movie.
913
00:45:25.260 --> 00:45:26.093
Right.
914
00:45:34.788 --> 00:45:38.550
The way that you described this,
915
00:45:38.550 --> 00:45:42.903
it sounds like it was sort of taken for granted,
916
00:45:43.890 --> 00:45:45.640
that that's what you did.
Right.
917
00:45:46.890 --> 00:45:49.590
And just from what you've said,
918
00:45:49.590 --> 00:45:51.900
it doesn't sound like it was something you talked about.
919
00:45:51.900 --> 00:45:54.183
No, I didn't really talk about it.
920
00:46:04.200 --> 00:46:06.367
Yeah. And then I guess-
921
00:46:07.693 --> 00:46:10.493
I think it was worse,
922
00:46:11.984 --> 00:46:15.150
working at Duke.
923
00:46:15.150 --> 00:46:19.953
Earlier, I told you that we worked third shift.
924
00:46:19.953 --> 00:46:23.053
That yeah, which was from 10:00 PM to 7?
925
00:46:23.053 --> 00:46:26.400
10:30 to seven in the morning.
926
00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:31.400
Well, when we came to work first shift in the daytime,
927
00:46:33.900 --> 00:46:37.503
most of the people in the library in Perkins,
928
00:46:38.850 --> 00:46:42.030
they looked at us like we was a bunch of monsters.
929
00:46:42.030 --> 00:46:43.290
Really?
They did.
930
00:46:43.290 --> 00:46:44.257
And this was in the-