WEBVTT 1 00:00.000 --> 00:07.000 Have you asked a question? Let me answer. 2 00:07.000 --> 00:13.000 Could you please state your full name and date of birth? 3 00:13.000 --> 02:02.000 My name is Erma Avenue Hayes Russell. My birthdate is November 6th, 1919 and I'm 75 years of age. I was born in Holmes County in Lexington, Mississippi and went to the Holmes County public school. From there, to Jackson Public School in Jackson, Mississippi. From there, to Saints High School and College. Now, at the time I finished school at Saints, you only had to have one year of college experience to teach then. They started off with one year. That was all you had to have. And I got that one year and that is as far as I went to school during that time. But later on in life I went back and studied and got a certificate to teach adults. 4 02:02.000 --> 03:23.000 Also, I worked in Headstart. I did my teaching experience at Saints when I was there, while I was there before I left there, and then all this other came afterwards. Why don't you keep that so you can—my parents is Willie Hayes and Elizabeth McGee Hayes. They lived a long progressive life and a healthy life. Wasn't either one down sick when they died, both died of a heart attack. They both lived to get 81 and 89 years old. From there they taught us and brought us up in school and church, and taught us how to sing, pray and work also. They really taught us how to work. So I'm proud of my parents. Okay? 5 03:23.000 --> 03:32.000 Were you raised in Lexington? 6 03:32.000 --> 03:44.000 I was raised in the Howard community at Route Two, Box 30, Lexington, Mississippi. 7 03:44.000 --> 03:50.000 Would you please share some of your earliest memories growing up in that community? 8 03:50.000 --> 04:42.000 The community that I grew up in was like a family. Everybody problem was everybody else's problem. Everybody shared the same interest. When a person was sick, it was just like a sister or a brother in the family was sick. Everybody shared interest with that person. If there was sickness or death, everybody was interested. And if a person was hungry or there was some disadvantages in the family, everybody shared their disadvantage and nobody thought about charging anybody anything. They just shared because each person was interested in one another. 9 04:42.000 --> 05:48.000 And what else can I say about a family? When your burden was my burden and whatever I can do for you, I'll do it. That's the kind of family. We grew up in a community, we grew up in with the families that was in the community and some of the communities I grew up in was pretty large communities. But everybody shared the same interests and we went to the same churches. We went to the Baptist Church, which we were members of at that time, and the Methodist churches, and the Saints. Whatever church had service that Sunday, we went to that church. No matter which church it was, we went to the next church that had service on that Sunday. Regardless to what church it was. That's how we grew up. 10 05:48.000 --> 05:55.000 What was the most important thing to the people in the Howard community? 11 05:55.000 --> 06:01.000 Like what? Most important? What do you mean? 12 06:01.000 --> 06:08.000 What did they cherish? What did they value? 13 06:08.000 --> 07:18.000 I'm not sure I can say. Most people worked. They were farming at that time. Everybody was farming except those that did construction or carpentry work, so on like that. So the community people even shared that. When one person got through chopping or picking cotton before the other family did, then this family will go over and help that one get through. So their interest, their chief interest was helping one another. And that's one thing I liked about those days then. Your next door neighbor was different from your next door neighbor now. You always know who your neighbor was then, back there then, because you was interested in how your neighbor was getting along, what was happening over at your neighbor's house. Not for gossip, but to help. 14 07:18.000 --> 08:22.000 And that's what they did in those days. I can't say back there because I was quite young. I can't say I was happy about it because my mother would go, always go and see about the neighbors. And me being the oldest child, I had to go along with them. And I got tired of going seeing about the neighbors. She would go wash, iron, cook, whatever had to be done. She would go and take me along. If it was day or night, I would have to go. I didn't like it then, but I like it now, because I see and I know, I understand what was going on at that time. I didn't understand then. But since I understand now, I know it's good. And right now I have part of that in me to do some of the same things that my mother did. 15 08:22.000 --> 08:28.000 What would a visit to one of your neighbors be like? What was a typical visit like? 16 08:28.000 --> 08:39.000 To visit the neighbors at that time? Do you mean when they were sick or just an ordinary visit? 17 08:39.000 --> 08:40.000 Both. 18 08:40.000 --> 09:27.000 Both? Well, to me, at that time I was quite young. All I was thinking about was playing somewhere. What could I play with? And being a girl with growing up with a bunch of brothers and no sister, at that time I grew up kind of rough like climbing trees and so on, and rolling wheel barrels and so on like that, and other things that boys did. Mostly what boys did. And my mother taught me how to sew and do things quite young and I did that for the neighbors. 19 09:27.000 --> 10:17.000 When my mother would visit the neighbors, it was just going to another sister or brother's house. That's what it was like. And like I foresaid, when you go there, whatever needed to be done, that's what was done. Whatever was needed at that house, that's what was done. When we visit the other neighbors. And they would sit down and talk and enjoyed each other. And it seemed like they was having pleasant conversations together. If one had to quilt, this would go over and visit that neighbor and they'd do a quilt, shell peas or do some canning or whatever. That's what they did together. 20 10:17.000 --> 10:23.000 So it just wasn't conversation? People would actually pitch in a hand for whatever needed done? 21 10:23.000 --> 10:25.000 Right, right. 22 10:25.000 --> 10:35.000 Was there a particular time of the day for visiting? Like, after your work was done? 23 10:35.000 --> 10:47.000 No, it was whenever this person could get off to do it. Mostly in the afternoon. Mostly. Okay? 24 10:47.000 --> 10:52.000 So your mother might still have her own work to do but she might go and see about someone else? 25 10:52.000 --> 11:40.000 Yes. And she might have to pass three or four neighbors house trying to get to the house where she's going to. And each house she passed, the lady would holler out and ask, "Ms. Hayes, where you going?" And she'd say, "I'm going down to see such and such a person." And they'll say, "Wait, let me go with you." She'll catch on when she get to the next house. It was the same thing. The next house is the same thing. When they get to the house, it would be three or four women going to that house because they was just that much interested in sharing and helping one another. Oh, I wish it was like that now. 26 11:40.000 --> 11:55.000 Now, if some of the women were coming to visit your home, would you be expected to offer them something or was there, I guess what was the expectation for what you extended to them? 27 11:55.000 --> 11:57.000 What did we expect from that person? 28 11:57.000 --> 12:06.000 No, ma'am. I guess what would you give? If they came to your house, did you serve something? Something to drink or something to eat? 29 12:06.000 --> 12:54.000 If I had something to serve, sure we would serve it. If there were anything to serve, we'd serve it. Because so many times at my home during that time, my mother and dad would love to—they loved to—mother loved to cook and feed people. My dad liked to make big barrels of lemonade and serve people. And if it was watermelon time, he likes to get out under the tree on a big table and cut many watermelons and serve people watermelons until they just fill up. They looked like they enjoyed doing things like that. 30 12:54.000 --> 13:05.000 Now, did the men have a different pattern of visiting? You mentioned the ladies would go with each other, would the men do it? They had their own set of visitations? 31 13:05.000 --> 13:05.000 Yes. 32 13:05.000 --> 13:06.000 Okay. 33 13:06.000 --> 14:09.000 Theirs were different. I don't know just how they went about it, but I know my dad used to go and sit with all the men and just talk. They'd just go around and talk with each other. But I didn't pay as much attention to what they were doing as I did to what the lady folks was doing. Because during that time, sometime during of the year, my daddy was also molasses maker, I think that's what you call it. He would make molasses. And he'd have a lot of companies sitting around him talking while he's working, making molasses. So that was during the latter summer, early fall, 34 14:09.000 --> 14:14.000 What about the young people, did they visit? 35 14:14.000 --> 14:31.000 Mostly they would play baseball. That's what they had at that time. They would visit each other and swim in little mud holes wherever they could find one. That's what I can remember them doing mostly. 36 14:31.000 --> 14:41.000 What about you? There were young ladies in the neighborhood that you would go see, girls your age? 37 14:41.000 --> 15:33.000 Oh, we just had things in common. Just talk. And we didn't have much to play around with, but that's all we could do is talk and share our interests in whatever was available at that time to be interested in. It wasn't much to be like it is now to claim your interests. We didn't have television and we didn't even have radios part of the time. But as I grew up, we did have radios, but not the television. That I'm talking about in my lifetime, young days. It's been many years ago. Okay. 38 15:33.000 --> 16:04.000 Now, give us a sense of neighborliness people visit with and that it doesn't exist, at least not to the same level today. What about when you had your own family? By the time you had your own family, were people still doing these things? Were they still visiting and helping each other? So I'm saying in between yesterday and today. 39 16:04.000 --> 17:17.000 Not as much. Not as much. Things, as time changed, things changed and people changed. People didn't visit as much. But some had same interests. They were interested in others, but they didn't do as well as they did years ago in my childhood days. When I grew up, people would help. And they'll help now, but you have to pay people to help you now. At that time you didn't expect people to pay you, neither did you expect to pay people, because there weren't any charges then. No charges. They just helped. But as time grew on, passed on, things changed. Wasn't like that anymore. 40 17:17.000 --> 17:20.000 Even by the time you were married it was not like that before? 41 17:20.000 --> 17:26.000 By the time I married it was still like that. But after I married it wasn't like that. 42 17:26.000 --> 17:26.000 What year were you married? 43 17:26.000 --> 17:30.000 Beg your pardon? 44 17:30.000 --> 17:33.000 What year were you married? 45 17:33.000 --> 17:48.000 In 1941. 46 17:48.000 --> 18:01.000 Okay. In later years were there other places that people might congregate or gather as opposed to visiting? 47 18:01.000 --> 19:32.000 Only the church at that particular time, only the church. Until about later on in the '60s I believe it was, they start making centers to meet in. This is in the rural. In the city it was different. In the city, we had nice little meeting places to meet. Different little halls to meet for recreation in the city. But in the rural it was different, you see? And I had shared both because I was living in Jackson at one time and we had plenty of recreation places to meet. Then at Saints we had recreation places there to be. But out in the rural, in the community there weren't anywhere to meet but in the church until in the '60s. And they start making center—organizing centers in different areas of the county where people could meet and have their different meetings and not have to do all this in the church. 48 19:32.000 --> 20:30.000 And sometime on church time. Sometime when we want to meet and have a meeting at the center, it would be right on church time. So it was good that they could have their centers. Because when they were having it in the church, it was time for prayer service or revival or some type of church service, you see? But the church went along with the community until the community could get a place to do this. Because at that particular time, we weren't allowed to have all the different meetings that we wanted to have in the schoolhouse. So we had to do it in our church because of this law. 49 20:30.000 --> 20:30.000 Because of Jim Crow? 50 20:30.000 --> 20:36.000 Yeah. 51 20:36.000 --> 20:44.000 When did you move to Jackson and how long were you there? 52 20:44.000 --> 21:31.000 Went to Jackson in 1937 and I attend the school there in '37. It was either '36 and '37, or '37 and '38. But from that time, from '37, I know until '41, early '41 I was at Saints. At Saints. When I left Saints, I went back to Jackson and worked until I got married. 53 21:31.000 --> 21:36.000 Were you in a boarding school in Jackson? Were you boarding? 54 21:36.000 --> 21:40.000 No, it was a public school. Jim Hill Junior High School. 55 21:40.000 --> 21:42.000 Your whole family had moved to Jackson? 56 21:42.000 --> 22:39.000 No. Part of my family was in Jackson. We were just like a family. We were. My mother's sisters, three sisters was in Jackson. And she would send me there to help those sisters. They had problems with illness in their families and my mother would send me to help them. So when time come to go to school, I started, I went to school in Jackson from the ninth grade. And after then I left and went to Saints and finished school at Saints. 57 22:39.000 --> 22:41.000 You started out in Holmes County public school? 58 22:41.000 --> 22:43.000 That's right. 59 22:43.000 --> 22:46.000 Do you have many memories of that school? 60 22:46.000 --> 22:46.000 Memories? 61 22:46.000 --> 22:49.000 Yes, ma'am. 62 22:49.000 --> 24:01.000 Yes. My memories, I would start out by saying I loved my classwork. Always did. From the primary grade up. I loved my classwork. Because I had one friend in the class with me from the primary grades up until the seventh or eighth grade. One friend that went all the way with me. And if I have to say it myself, we always got our lesson because in the early grades, the teacher always say, "Whoever get that lesson, you get a prize Monday morning." We wanted that prize. We didn't miss school a day and we didn't miss our lesson a day. And we would always get at—you would have to—they had it so you head and foot, we'd get at the foot of the class. They used to stand and read, and stand, recite your lesson. 63 24:01.000 --> 24:43.000 We'd always get at the foot of the class because we knew we were going to the head. And we did that until we departed. We departed by moving from in different areas from each other. That's how we got apart from each other. And when I finished school, I mean went to—that was at a school called Bliss Dale. Then we come to Mount Zion School. When I finished school at Mount Zion on Jacob McClain, which is the school in Lexington that's named for him, as J.J. McClain. 64 24:43.000 --> 25:43.000 When I finished school there, then that's when I went to Jackson. And I thought because I was from the rural, I didn't know my lesson because I thought I couldn't compete with the city students. I thought the city students would know more than I did because I was from the rural. And once every week they would have a reading match and a spelling match. And it was 90 in the class, my class, in the class. 90 student in the class. And was I one scared soul. But one city boy and myself would always be the last on the floor. And I could have felt proud of myself, but I was still scared because I thought city children knew more than country children. 65 25:43.000 --> 26:35.000 And in the English class, when we tried to conjugate verbs, Jake McClain had us conjugating verbs so much until I could just shut my eyes and see "Oh, verbs to be." And when that rough teacher, they said she was the roughest teacher at Jim Hill School, would have us all on the board writing out, conjugating those verbs. I would have my—two other girls and myself would be the last one on the floor each time. And she said, "Where did y'all come from? Who was your teacher? Who was your teacher?" When I said Jacob McClain, she walked off from me. 66 26:35.000 --> 27:13.000 I didn't never know why until one day I met him and was telling him how I was getting along down there in school and who my teacher was, Molly Young. He said, "That was my classmate at Jackson State." She knew my teacher. He was out here in the rural, she was still in Jackson teaching. But they knew he was a good teacher. I thought he was a bad teacher because he made me get my lesson. But I'm proud of him, tell you that. And he's dead. But I'm proud of him. He made me. He just sought to me getting my lesson. If I didn't, we would get a punishment. 67 27:13.000 --> 27:21.000 Were there things that you disliked about school? 68 27:21.000 --> 28:45.000 Only one thing in Jackson. That was, I was a religious person and the entire class, except two others besides myself, didn't believe in carrying out the devotion in a religious way, you see? They thought they were right and I thought I was right. I was right. Didn't either one want to give in. We didn't have the knowledge, I guess to give in. Didn't either one want to give in, and the teacher wasn't with us. That's one thing that I had that we'll start off, we'll sing a spiritual song, and then we'll pray, and then they'll go into Old Black Joe and Way Down On the Swanee River and so on. That was what it's called a folk song or something like that. And we would get things kind of mixed up. But other than that I judged that everything else was fine and complete. 69 28:45.000 --> 29:07.000 And you mentioned that you had talked with people about your living conditions. What about the conditions of the school? What were the different schools you went to, what conditions were they in? 70 29:07.000 --> 30:22.000 To me, in the rural school, we didn't have water like we should have. We had one school teacher to a whole—at one school. To everybody that went to school from that community there were one teacher to all those students. We moved to the next community, that was pretty good except the heating condition. What heat was available, we had to adjust to that. And when it got hot, we just had to adjust to the heat because we didn't have any fan. So those was the conditions on which we had to undergo at the school that I went to. Well, I won't talk about the other rural schools because some of them was in really bad condition with window panes out and inadequate doors. 71 30:22.000 --> 31:04.000 It just wasn't in good condition. But where I attend it did very well except the water. We didn't have the proper water, we didn't have the proper facility indoor. We didn't have any indoor facilities at all. That was in the rural. We didn't have any indoor facilities at all. But in the city it was different. That was in Jackson. But at Saints, we still didn't have indoor bath, washroom. 72 31:04.000 --> 31:08.000 How big was the school in Jackson? 73 31:08.000 --> 31:12.000 Well, it was a large two-story brick building. 74 31:12.000 --> 31:26.000 Okay. It was fairly modest? 75 31:26.000 --> 31:26.000 Yeah. 76 31:26.000 --> 31:26.000 In your time did you have your family come and bring you wood to the school and coal to the school? 77 31:26.000 --> 31:44.000 In the rural, they did. I don't know how they heated in the city. I wasn't even interested at that time. I just looked for it to be nice and warm when I got there and it was. 78 31:44.000 --> 31:44.000 Did that make a big difference? 79 31:44.000 --> 31:48.000 Sure, sure. 80 31:48.000 --> 32:00.000 Now, in the rural were you—your family brought or your brothers brought wood or did you? Who in the family might bring some wood to the school? 81 32:00.000 --> 32:52.000 They had trustees at that time of the school. They had what you call trustees, some men that was elected to take care of the conditions of the school, whatever they were. And these men would see to there being wood at the school. And sometime when it wasn't adequate wood there, they would send the young boys, the teachers would send the boys out to get wood, collect wood, gather wood in the evening and gather fire wood for to start fire the next morning. That was the condition in the rural. So I was looking for the fire to be hot when I got there then. I still was looking for a warm fire. 82 32:52.000 --> 32:53.000 Was there a PTA in the rural? 83 32:53.000 --> 33:53.000 Yes. Yes. They were a PTA. And we still have PTAs. At that time, the parents seemed to be quite interested in the PTA. Seemed like they was more interested than they are now, because mostly we have in the PTA now are teachers. And it's supposed to be parents, children, and teachers now. So some of the teachers are there, but the parents not there like they should be. 84 33:53.000 --> 34:02.000 Did they raise money—you mentioned some of the schools have windows broken out. Did they have fundraisers from the school? 85 34:02.000 --> 34:48.000 Yes, some did. But action was quite slow, because some whole windows, they went with pasteboard up to the windows. My sister was a teacher at one school and she would sometimes put her overcoat, run a coat, pull off her coat and stick it in the window to keep the air off the children. And when she got tired of that, she quit teaching and went to Chicago, got her a job. 86 34:48.000 --> 34:58.000 Would you please share with me some of your memories of going to Saints High School and college? 87 34:58.000 --> 36:06.000 Going to Saints, there we had to wear a uniform. A blue and white uniform. And the class, I don't remember how many we had in class there, but we kept the same class members in our class during the years that I was there. And we all graduated together. But to me, it was one of the best schools that you can go to. And at first they used to didn't have a lot of athletic games to play with and on and on down through time they added on. And at one time they didn't believe in playing ball, but Bishop Mason told them that the children, the boys should be out there playing, doing something, let them play ball. 88 36:06.000 --> 36:56.000 And Bishop Mason threw the first ball out there at that school and started the children playing ball. And other activities they got started on the campus. Now, one thing back there we didn't have was a lunchroom and we got pretty hungry. So they built a lunchroom out of a log cabin. Logs. Built a log cabin out of logs and started a little lunchroom. And they would make soup and we'd have soup and crackers. And the bowl soup and two or three crackers cost about three cents. And we didn't even have that. 89 36:56.000 --> 38:12.000 We didn't have that. But when we did have it, when we did have enough to buy a bowl of soup and some crackers, we shared with each other with the little money that we had. Like, I'll loan you some money so you could have some and the other girl or whoever. And then next time if they have money, they'll let me have money to get me some soup and crackers. And I could always remember that's what we had at the log cabin was soup and cracker. And it was good because we were hungry. They went from there on to something else. They always had a dining hall for the dormitory children. But I didn't live in the dormitory. I was a community student. I lived in the community, roomed in the community. And I'd go from the community school, but we'd get hungry through the day. 90 38:12.000 --> 39:37.000 From there, the next interesting thing to me was the choir that I enjoyed very much. I was a contralto in the choir at that time and I could sing at that time and enjoyed it. And we had a group at the school that was a group that went around and sang, raised money for the school. They were always gone. But we had another group at the school that I sang with. And some of them was my classmates and most of them was my classmates. But we had this group at the school that I sang with and we would sing right around in the communities, like from Lexington and each one. Where each student home was we'd go to their church and sing and raise money. So that was interesting. The next interesting thing was our prayer room. I was interested in that. And one time we prayed so that my prayer—when my prayer period was over with, from 2:00 until 2:15, when the time was over, I had gotten so happy until I couldn't stop praying, I kept on praying. 91 39:37.000 --> 40:39.000 But when the other group, three groups, three—the other three people come in to pray, regardless whether you up and gone or not, they had to do their. And one time we did that until so many came in and got to praying, until the teacher had to come in, tell us to go home. We started a revival from there. A revival. They say, "If you just go home, we'll let you come back tonight and finish." Coming back that night started a revival and the children started getting saved. Some had been there for a number of years and had never been in any kind of church. They got saved from that prayer meeting. It went into a revival. And Dr. Mallory was there. She saw to us coming and going each night. And some children, even some of the teachers laid out on the floor all night trying to receive the Baptist and the Holy Ghost. 92 40:39.000 --> 41:35.000 This was great. That was great. I enjoyed it. And I always will think about the days I had at Saints, how enjoyable it was. And we always had what you call May Day. We marched around the square in Lexington and that was a great beautiful march, because everybody was dressed in blue and white, blue and white, blue and white. A blue skirt, white blouse. And I just got to the place where I loved Saints because you're supposed to live in dignity, walk in dignity, and talk in dignity. That's what we was taught to do and that's what we tried to do. 93 41:35.000 --> 41:38.000 Yeah. Walk and talk in dignity? 94 41:38.000 --> 42:35.000 Yeah. Since I left there, two of my children finished school there, went to college there. My oldest daughter and my second son finished college there. And then the third son—coming from the top down, the third son. Now, those are teenage pictures up there. But they grown men and women now. The third picture, he taught school there and his children went to school there. So we had three generations that went to Saints. Me, my children and their children. 95 42:35.000 --> 42:43.000 Who were your most important teachers? 96 42:43.000 --> 42:48.000 Now, you're saying that— 97 42:48.000 --> 42:57.000 —I guess, were there teachers who, I mean, I'm sure all your teachers really [indistinct 00:42:51]. I was just wondering if there were particular ones that stood out in your mind? 98 42:57.000 --> 44:28.000 Mrs. Gilbert. Mrs. Gilbert. She seemed to have been most sympathetic. All of them was good. All of them was all right to me. But Mrs. Gilbert seemed to be more considerate, more understandable, more understanding with the student, if you had a problem. If you had a problem and you explained your problem, she could understand it. And she could know whether you just sang something or whether you really had a problem. And if you really had a problem, she would consider you. And she would say, "Young lady, I would like to talk with you." And if it was a time where she couldn't talk to you, she'd pass by you and touch you and say, "Hold on. Just hold on. God is with you. Hold on." And with those words coming to you at a time where you in distress and somebody tell you, "Let's pray about it." That makes you feel good and let you feel that somebody is with you, you're not alone, you see? 99 44:28.000 --> 45:53.000 And that was the kind of person she was. And her husband was—he was a minister from World War I that had not finished school before he went to war. And he came back to school there in his advanced age and got in class along with the others. And I was one of his teachers at Saints along with the eighth grade students. She taught eighth grade. When she couldn't teach the eighth grade class, she would always get me to take care of her class for her. And he was in that class. And he was interested too. He would always say, "Young lady, hold on, God be with you." Because it was rough with many of us at that time. We didn't have telephone. We couldn't reach our parents or get what we wanted because there weren't many cars. You couldn't travel like you wanted to. It was just hard during that time. But we made it. I have a daughter that sang, I Made It. The second daughter sang. She with her daddy now. She took him to church. 100 45:53.000 --> 45:57.000 Like you were stranded on—you were in the Lexington community and your parents lived? 101 45:57.000 --> 46:12.000 In the Howard community about 10 or 12 miles away. 102 46:12.000 --> 46:12.000 Okay. 103 46:12.000 --> 46:47.000 Yep. And no way to get there. Except at times you can find somebody with a car that might take out time and take you after work hours. Not only me, it was that way with many students. Because you see, when students lived in other states, and see, a lot of Saints students was out-of-state students. And I guess it was just as rough with them, but—