WEBVTT
1
00:00:02.490 --> 00:00:04.170
[Mary Hebert] Please just state your full name
2
00:00:04.170 --> 00:00:05.820
and when and where you were born.
3
00:00:06.810 --> 00:00:10.620
[Mary Abbyss] Mary Elizabeth Jones Abbyss,
4
00:00:10.620 --> 00:00:13.890
born in Winston-Salem, North Carolina.
5
00:00:13.890 --> 00:00:14.970
You want the date?
Mm-hmm.
6
00:00:14.970 --> 00:00:18.060
March 18, 1936.
7
00:00:18.060 --> 00:00:20.100
When did your family come to Norfolk?
8
00:00:20.100 --> 00:00:23.610
As far as I know, it was 1943.
9
00:00:23.610 --> 00:00:26.490
Now this is sort of something I'm remembering.
10
00:00:26.490 --> 00:00:27.625
But you were a small child
11
00:00:27.625 --> 00:00:28.830
when you came.
I was a small person.
12
00:00:28.830 --> 00:00:31.553
Do you know why they decided to come?
13
00:00:31.553 --> 00:00:34.020
I don't know the exact reason other
14
00:00:34.020 --> 00:00:35.640
than it was during the war,
15
00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:38.820
and my dad knew he could make a better life
16
00:00:38.820 --> 00:00:40.230
as far as working in the Navy Yard.
17
00:00:40.230 --> 00:00:41.103
That part I know.
18
00:00:42.101 --> 00:00:43.260
Do you know what they did while they were
19
00:00:43.260 --> 00:00:44.280
in Winston-Salem?
20
00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:46.560
My daddy was a chauffeur.
21
00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:49.623
My mother possibly was a housewife.
22
00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:52.180
My father
23
00:00:54.120 --> 00:00:55.683
owned a cafe.
24
00:00:56.760 --> 00:00:58.500
I don't know which was first,
25
00:00:58.500 --> 00:01:01.710
but I know those are two of the things I knew about.
26
00:01:01.710 --> 00:01:03.836
And he worked for the shipyard when he came here?
27
00:01:03.836 --> 00:01:06.480
Called Navy Yard, at that time it was called Navy Yard,
28
00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:07.313
during the war.
29
00:01:08.455 --> 00:01:11.205
(softly) Okay.
30
00:01:12.810 --> 00:01:16.653
And did your mother work while she was here in Norfolk?
31
00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:19.680
At that time she had five children
32
00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:21.123
and mother was a housewife.
33
00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:28.800
Do you remember your grandparents at all?
34
00:01:28.800 --> 00:01:31.440
My grandmother was a cook
35
00:01:31.440 --> 00:01:34.380
and she worked at a hotel called Carolina Hotel.
36
00:01:34.380 --> 00:01:36.210
In Winston-Salem?
In Winston-Salem.
37
00:01:36.210 --> 00:01:38.643
And she was a renowned cook.
38
00:01:39.780 --> 00:01:42.180
I can vividly remember the things she would bring,
39
00:01:42.180 --> 00:01:47.040
like cold french fries and cornbread muffins,
40
00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:48.930
and pound cake.
41
00:01:48.930 --> 00:01:50.590
Those three things sort of stand out.
42
00:01:50.590 --> 00:01:52.800
Would she ever tell you about what life was like
43
00:01:52.800 --> 00:01:54.829
for her when she was growing up?
44
00:01:54.829 --> 00:01:56.161
No, she didn't.
45
00:01:56.161 --> 00:01:56.994
No, she did not.
46
00:01:56.994 --> 00:01:59.586
Did your parents ever tell you those kinds of things?
47
00:01:59.586 --> 00:02:01.530
You know, what it was like for them when they were children
48
00:02:01.530 --> 00:02:03.778
and coming up through-?
49
00:02:03.778 --> 00:02:06.720
Mm, not enough at this point
50
00:02:06.720 --> 00:02:10.593
for me to really say I have a recollection of things.
51
00:02:11.850 --> 00:02:13.920
What do you think was the most important thing
52
00:02:13.920 --> 00:02:15.370
that your parents taught you?
53
00:02:16.260 --> 00:02:17.093
Then?
54
00:02:17.093 --> 00:02:17.926
Or in general?
55
00:02:17.926 --> 00:02:18.990
In general.
56
00:02:18.990 --> 00:02:20.643
In general, my mother taught me
57
00:02:20.643 --> 00:02:23.700
that I could do anything, that I could persevere.
58
00:02:23.700 --> 00:02:24.810
She didn't use that word,
59
00:02:24.810 --> 00:02:27.963
but it means that there was nothing that I could not do.
60
00:02:29.550 --> 00:02:32.070
And how did she show you that you could do anything?
61
00:02:32.070 --> 00:02:33.750
Did she give you examples?
I can tell you
62
00:02:33.750 --> 00:02:35.220
in a roundabout way.
63
00:02:35.220 --> 00:02:37.920
I was brown-skinned and my hair was short
64
00:02:37.920 --> 00:02:40.590
at a time when it wasn't popular to be that way.
65
00:02:40.590 --> 00:02:41.970
And I don't know-
66
00:02:41.970 --> 00:02:45.210
Well, she sort of said she wanted my self esteem
67
00:02:45.210 --> 00:02:48.060
to be enhanced, because I had very short hair,
68
00:02:48.060 --> 00:02:50.070
and she said if I couldn't do anything else,
69
00:02:50.070 --> 00:02:51.210
I could always be smart.
70
00:02:51.210 --> 00:02:55.410
And she always insisted that I keep my head in a book
71
00:02:55.410 --> 00:02:56.910
and be doing something.
72
00:02:56.910 --> 00:02:58.470
So they valued education.
73
00:02:58.470 --> 00:02:59.303
Absolutely!
74
00:02:59.303 --> 00:03:01.537
My daddy would use words such as,
75
00:03:01.537 --> 00:03:03.570
"I want you all to have what I didn't have,"
76
00:03:03.570 --> 00:03:05.130
and he called us chillens.
77
00:03:05.130 --> 00:03:09.003
C-H-I-L-L-E-N, or something like that.
78
00:03:09.839 --> 00:03:13.080
And he would use the expression, "You chaps have a chance,"
79
00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:17.040
C-H-A-P-S, "Have a chance to do what I couldn't do."
80
00:03:17.040 --> 00:03:20.977
And he would say, another little phrase he had was,
81
00:03:20.977 --> 00:03:23.400
"I'm not working my hands to the bone
82
00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:25.140
so that you all won't have a way in life
83
00:03:25.140 --> 00:03:26.100
or you won't make it."
84
00:03:26.100 --> 00:03:29.580
He wanted us to have a way in life that he did not have.
85
00:03:29.580 --> 00:03:31.590
And he actually verbalized that.
86
00:03:31.590 --> 00:03:34.830
So he thought that in order for you to get ahead
87
00:03:34.830 --> 00:03:37.770
and to do better than he had done, you needed an education.
88
00:03:37.770 --> 00:03:41.133
Oh, that was emphasized throughout our life,
89
00:03:41.133 --> 00:03:44.280
from the time I can remember, I could read.
90
00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:47.640
I remember my mother, books, and even to this day,
91
00:03:47.640 --> 00:03:49.860
she has books, and, you know, I do the same thing.
92
00:03:49.860 --> 00:03:51.870
I mean, since we do some of the same thing,
93
00:03:51.870 --> 00:03:54.390
a book is something we have always had around us
94
00:03:54.390 --> 00:03:55.223
all our life.
95
00:03:56.370 --> 00:03:57.390
Did she teach you to read
96
00:03:57.390 --> 00:03:58.620
at home before-
Evidently,
97
00:03:58.620 --> 00:04:00.000
because I never remember going
98
00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:02.580
to a formal school until I got here.
99
00:04:02.580 --> 00:04:04.773
And see, in '43,
100
00:04:06.420 --> 00:04:08.760
I had to be seven, six or seven.
101
00:04:08.760 --> 00:04:10.650
I can't remember the month.
102
00:04:10.650 --> 00:04:12.510
And I never remember going
103
00:04:12.510 --> 00:04:17.010
to a public school until I got here, and they skipped me.
104
00:04:17.010 --> 00:04:19.143
And my first teacher was Miss Mary Cuffee.
105
00:04:19.980 --> 00:04:22.080
And she said I was smart as a whip.
106
00:04:22.080 --> 00:04:24.120
Those were her very words.
107
00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:25.410
C-U-F-F-E-Y?
108
00:04:25.410 --> 00:04:27.570
Uh, C-U-F-F-E-E.
Okay.
109
00:04:27.570 --> 00:04:28.440
F-F-E-E.
110
00:04:28.440 --> 00:04:30.060
Mary Cuffee.
111
00:04:30.060 --> 00:04:33.210
And what school did you attend here?
112
00:04:33.210 --> 00:04:34.590
At the very beginning?
Yeah, the elementary school.
113
00:04:34.590 --> 00:04:36.840
Called Providence.
114
00:04:36.840 --> 00:04:39.870
It was Providence, and I can't remember the other part
115
00:04:39.870 --> 00:04:42.720
because they had pre-ma,
116
00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:45.120
which was for a six-year-old, wasn't five,
117
00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:48.690
to 12th, or 11th then, it might have been 11th.
118
00:04:48.690 --> 00:04:49.920
Now it could have been 12th,
119
00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:52.530
but I can't remember if they had had 12th grade
120
00:04:52.530 --> 00:04:53.610
at that time or not.
121
00:04:53.610 --> 00:04:56.010
But every grade was in the school,
122
00:04:56.010 --> 00:04:59.070
and each room had two grades.
123
00:04:59.070 --> 00:05:01.620
And that was-
If I'm not mistaken,
124
00:05:01.620 --> 00:05:04.170
it was a school with a first floor and a second floor.
125
00:05:04.170 --> 00:05:06.270
If I remember correctly.
126
00:05:06.270 --> 00:05:09.123
Had wooden floors and pot belly stoves.
127
00:05:10.050 --> 00:05:12.300
Did the children have to take care of the stoves, and-
128
00:05:12.300 --> 00:05:13.133
Yes.
129
00:05:13.133 --> 00:05:14.640
I mean, people were responsible then,
130
00:05:14.640 --> 00:05:16.620
people did what they had to do.
131
00:05:16.620 --> 00:05:18.993
It was not like you had to make anybody do it.
132
00:05:20.250 --> 00:05:21.540
What were the textbooks like?
133
00:05:21.540 --> 00:05:22.830
Do you remember when you were-
134
00:05:22.830 --> 00:05:24.577
I remember the first book, I was,
135
00:05:24.577 --> 00:05:27.037
"Look, look, see, see," "Jane, Puff".
136
00:05:27.037 --> 00:05:29.067
"Dick and Jane, Spot and Puff".
137
00:05:29.940 --> 00:05:31.470
Now I know it's Scott Foresman,
138
00:05:31.470 --> 00:05:34.380
at that time I did not know the publication,
139
00:05:34.380 --> 00:05:35.707
but I can remember,
140
00:05:35.707 --> 00:05:38.280
"Look, look, oh, oh, oh."
141
00:05:38.280 --> 00:05:40.830
I mean, those were the characters.
142
00:05:40.830 --> 00:05:42.450
The daddy had a briefcase
143
00:05:42.450 --> 00:05:44.430
and I can't remember what the mother did,
144
00:05:44.430 --> 00:05:46.890
but Sally was a little blonde head,
145
00:05:46.890 --> 00:05:49.530
and Dick and Jane were the older two.
146
00:05:49.530 --> 00:05:51.630
Those were my first books
147
00:05:51.630 --> 00:05:53.670
that I remember, you know, in a school.
148
00:05:53.670 --> 00:05:55.350
Did they have all the pages in them?
149
00:05:55.350 --> 00:05:56.700
Were they ratty?
Nope.
150
00:05:56.700 --> 00:06:00.570
At that time I did not know the significance of those books,
151
00:06:00.570 --> 00:06:02.190
but they were the most obsolete,
152
00:06:02.190 --> 00:06:04.950
old books that you could have ever seen in your life.
153
00:06:04.950 --> 00:06:06.783
But yet we treasured those books.
154
00:06:08.640 --> 00:06:11.550
Now, when I spoke to Ms. Dozier,
155
00:06:11.550 --> 00:06:13.170
she mentioned that you remember,
156
00:06:13.170 --> 00:06:15.780
like, if a child didn't have a page in the book-
157
00:06:15.780 --> 00:06:16.980
Oh yes!
158
00:06:16.980 --> 00:06:18.933
And then the next person, like, okay,
159
00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:23.580
I can't say we sat two at a desk,
160
00:06:23.580 --> 00:06:25.650
but let's say maybe it was so crowded
161
00:06:25.650 --> 00:06:27.480
that you could easily pass your book
162
00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:29.070
if your page was missing.
163
00:06:29.070 --> 00:06:31.230
I mean, it was not unusual
164
00:06:31.230 --> 00:06:34.020
to have a book with no pages, or a half of a page torn.
165
00:06:34.020 --> 00:06:35.730
I mean, these are things I can remember.
166
00:06:35.730 --> 00:06:38.523
So that means if we were reading a story,
167
00:06:39.930 --> 00:06:43.230
if my book did not have that page, then the next child,
168
00:06:43.230 --> 00:06:45.330
you just automatically looked over at the next child's book,
169
00:06:45.330 --> 00:06:47.280
you know, it was not a problem.
170
00:06:47.280 --> 00:06:48.113
So you all would
171
00:06:48.113 --> 00:06:50.460
make do with-?
Oh yes, oh yes!
172
00:06:50.460 --> 00:06:52.290
You used what you had.
173
00:06:52.290 --> 00:06:54.000
But, you know, nobody complained
174
00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:56.400
or fussed about the fact that you didn't have a page.
175
00:06:56.400 --> 00:06:57.442
Because, like I said,
176
00:06:57.442 --> 00:06:59.070
we were just so glad to have those books.
177
00:06:59.070 --> 00:07:01.580
Did your school have a library?
178
00:07:01.580 --> 00:07:04.234
In the elementary years?
Mm-hmm.
179
00:07:04.234 --> 00:07:06.263
If they did, I did not know about it.
180
00:07:06.263 --> 00:07:08.760
And you didn't go there for high school, so-
181
00:07:08.760 --> 00:07:12.573
Well, we left that, because of segregation,
182
00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:15.900
each grade went to a different school
183
00:07:15.900 --> 00:07:17.910
at one point in my life.
184
00:07:17.910 --> 00:07:19.210
You want to hear something about that?
185
00:07:19.210 --> 00:07:20.850
Sure!
Okay.
186
00:07:20.850 --> 00:07:23.970
I remember starting school in second grade.
187
00:07:23.970 --> 00:07:24.803
Can you put this on pause?
188
00:07:24.803 --> 00:07:25.636
[INTERRUPTION]
189
00:07:25.636 --> 00:07:27.311
We do?
Right.
190
00:07:27.311 --> 00:07:28.769
I forgot what your previous,
191
00:07:28.769 --> 00:07:31.230
I forgot what your previous question was.
192
00:07:31.230 --> 00:07:33.090
But this is what I learned how
193
00:07:33.090 --> 00:07:35.610
to do from Ms. Mary Cuffee Reed.
194
00:07:35.610 --> 00:07:36.777
So she taught you
195
00:07:36.777 --> 00:07:37.610
how to embroider?
She taught me how
196
00:07:37.610 --> 00:07:38.443
to embroider in school.
197
00:07:38.443 --> 00:07:39.930
And you held on to that-
198
00:07:39.930 --> 00:07:41.610
Mother kept it for years and years,
199
00:07:41.610 --> 00:07:43.770
and then she gave it to me.
200
00:07:43.770 --> 00:07:45.900
And this is something I took with me
201
00:07:45.900 --> 00:07:48.327
when I visited her recently.
202
00:07:48.327 --> 00:07:49.770
Did the boys learn how to do that too,
203
00:07:49.770 --> 00:07:51.257
or it was just the girls?
That's what,
204
00:07:51.257 --> 00:07:54.780
I know it was a type of sexist, in a sense.
205
00:07:54.780 --> 00:07:57.420
And I can't say yes and I can't say no.
206
00:07:57.420 --> 00:07:59.610
I know the boys did things with wood,
207
00:07:59.610 --> 00:08:02.340
but this was actually done in the classroom.
208
00:08:02.340 --> 00:08:04.143
And I don't remember.
209
00:08:04.980 --> 00:08:06.690
I just can't say what the boys did,
210
00:08:06.690 --> 00:08:10.800
but it seems like I remember everybody doing the same thing,
211
00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:13.170
but I don't believe that there would have been a problem,
212
00:08:13.170 --> 00:08:14.880
you didn't have a problem
213
00:08:14.880 --> 00:08:16.710
when a teacher would tell a child what to do,
214
00:08:16.710 --> 00:08:18.510
and somebody sassing back and talking back,
215
00:08:18.510 --> 00:08:19.740
at that particular time.
216
00:08:19.740 --> 00:08:21.300
So I have a feeling everybody might
217
00:08:21.300 --> 00:08:23.250
have been doing the same thing.
218
00:08:23.250 --> 00:08:25.470
Did she reinforce your self-esteem
219
00:08:25.470 --> 00:08:27.600
like your parents did?
Absolutely!
220
00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:29.583
A teacher was like a second parent.
221
00:08:30.660 --> 00:08:34.350
And at this point she lived next door to us
222
00:08:34.350 --> 00:08:35.880
and we esteemed her highly.
223
00:08:35.880 --> 00:08:38.160
It wasn't like we were on the same level,
224
00:08:38.160 --> 00:08:40.860
but by the same token, it wasn't like we were that distant.
225
00:08:40.860 --> 00:08:43.440
It was, you couldn't do any (laughs),
226
00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.950
the teacher knew your parent just like you knew your parent.
227
00:08:46.950 --> 00:08:49.770
And Miss Cuffee, she was a miss,
228
00:08:49.770 --> 00:08:51.720
Miss Cuffee stayed on us,
229
00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:53.100
but she never had problems with me.
230
00:08:53.100 --> 00:08:54.840
And I'm really not being vain.
231
00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:57.090
I was a very good student, and she just nurtured me
232
00:08:57.090 --> 00:08:59.610
and made me know how smart I was.
233
00:08:59.610 --> 00:09:02.730
She didn't separate her class into skin color
234
00:09:02.730 --> 00:09:04.830
and arrange it hierarchical-
It was all,
235
00:09:04.830 --> 00:09:05.663
this was all Black.
236
00:09:05.663 --> 00:09:06.496
Right, but no, I mean,
237
00:09:06.496 --> 00:09:08.700
lighter skinned, darker skin-
Not to my knowledge.
238
00:09:08.700 --> 00:09:10.260
I was not aware of that.
239
00:09:10.260 --> 00:09:13.500
I think she put emphasis on good behavior and smartness,
240
00:09:13.500 --> 00:09:15.000
but not the color part.
241
00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:16.290
Because some teachers did do that.
242
00:09:16.290 --> 00:09:18.390
Later that came along, especially,
243
00:09:18.390 --> 00:09:19.223
and that would run
244
00:09:19.223 --> 00:09:21.450
into how I knew I could never be a cheerleader,
245
00:09:21.450 --> 00:09:24.930
or Miss Whatever-the-Name-of-My-School might have been.
246
00:09:24.930 --> 00:09:27.150
I knew that that person was going to be light.
247
00:09:27.150 --> 00:09:28.113
And have long hair.
248
00:09:29.760 --> 00:09:31.170
I know I could never have been a majorette,
249
00:09:31.170 --> 00:09:32.340
I mean, what did I say,
250
00:09:32.340 --> 00:09:33.515
cheerleader?
Cheerleader.
251
00:09:33.515 --> 00:09:34.680
I meant majorette.
252
00:09:34.680 --> 00:09:36.240
So they-
The majorettes were,
253
00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:38.490
to me, they appeared to be the lighter girls.
254
00:09:43.050 --> 00:09:44.910
Where did you go to high school?
255
00:09:44.910 --> 00:09:46.910
Oh, that's what I started to tell you.
256
00:09:48.690 --> 00:09:52.500
Ms. Cuffee, at that time, taught me second and third
257
00:09:52.500 --> 00:09:54.093
in one room, as far as I know.
258
00:09:55.170 --> 00:10:00.170
In 4th grade, there was another teacher named Ms. Jenkins,
259
00:10:01.737 --> 00:10:03.210
well, Gerty Jenkins.
260
00:10:03.210 --> 00:10:04.620
She taught me 4th grade,
261
00:10:04.620 --> 00:10:06.990
and one of the things, at that time, they had 48 states,
262
00:10:06.990 --> 00:10:09.690
she taught us every state and every capital,
263
00:10:09.690 --> 00:10:12.360
and you had to remember them alphabetically.
264
00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:14.250
And she also taught me how to do cursive writing.
265
00:10:14.250 --> 00:10:15.393
That was Ms. Jenkins.
266
00:10:16.980 --> 00:10:17.813
All right.
267
00:10:17.813 --> 00:10:19.500
In 5th grade,
268
00:10:19.500 --> 00:10:23.400
I went to a school called Gilmerton Elementary School.
269
00:10:23.400 --> 00:10:24.480
That's across the bridge,
270
00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:26.760
and you had to ride a good distance.
271
00:10:26.760 --> 00:10:28.890
So at that time, if I remember correctly,
272
00:10:28.890 --> 00:10:31.710
mother had children at Providence,
273
00:10:31.710 --> 00:10:34.230
I was at Gilmerton, and she had somebody at Crestwood.
274
00:10:34.230 --> 00:10:37.770
The schools then, the grades rather,
275
00:10:37.770 --> 00:10:40.800
were segregated according to your school,
276
00:10:40.800 --> 00:10:42.840
depending upon the grade you were in.
277
00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:45.360
And that was a form of segregation, in a sense.
278
00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:47.700
Because the schools were crowded,
279
00:10:47.700 --> 00:10:51.630
you went to the school that your grade designated.
280
00:10:51.630 --> 00:10:54.630
So in 5th grade I left Providence
281
00:10:54.630 --> 00:10:55.890
and all the 5th grade children went
282
00:10:55.890 --> 00:10:58.200
to a school called Gilmerton.
283
00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:02.550
6th grade, I can't remember where I was,
284
00:11:02.550 --> 00:11:05.253
but in 7th, I know I came back to Providence.
285
00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:10.890
And at that time high school was 8th-12th.
286
00:11:10.890 --> 00:11:12.000
And, now, it could have been 11th,
287
00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:13.450
like I said, it seemed like I
288
00:11:14.580 --> 00:11:17.040
vaguely remember 11th grade being a grade
289
00:11:17.040 --> 00:11:18.150
and then they added on 12th,
290
00:11:18.150 --> 00:11:20.580
but I don't want to say that that's a fact with me.
291
00:11:20.580 --> 00:11:22.770
But it seemed like I remember children graduating
292
00:11:22.770 --> 00:11:24.510
from high school only in 11th grade.
293
00:11:24.510 --> 00:11:26.220
But I know my mother went to 11th grade,
294
00:11:26.220 --> 00:11:28.500
and my mother did finish high school.
295
00:11:28.500 --> 00:11:31.830
My daddy had a third grade education,
296
00:11:31.830 --> 00:11:34.473
but not equivalent to third grade as of today.
297
00:11:35.610 --> 00:11:38.730
But anyway, getting to high school,
298
00:11:38.730 --> 00:11:42.570
they had (laughs), you are not familiar with this area,
299
00:11:42.570 --> 00:11:45.570
but the schools was scattered all over,
300
00:11:45.570 --> 00:11:47.703
and Chesapeake was called Norfolk County.
301
00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:51.543
My school was now,
302
00:11:53.220 --> 00:11:55.980
at that time, called Norfolk County High.
303
00:11:55.980 --> 00:11:57.210
And they had everybody
304
00:11:57.210 --> 00:12:01.293
from as far as Norview Section, called Oakwood,
305
00:12:03.180 --> 00:12:04.983
Bears Quarters,
306
00:12:06.090 --> 00:12:09.120
Finch's, Doziers Corner.
307
00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.520
And what I'm saying, I can't tell you in miles,
308
00:12:11.520 --> 00:12:13.920
but people who know the radius of a map will tell you
309
00:12:13.920 --> 00:12:16.710
that these were some long distances.
310
00:12:16.710 --> 00:12:19.350
Everybody went to the same high school,
311
00:12:19.350 --> 00:12:21.540
even part of Portsmouth now, Cavalier Manor
312
00:12:21.540 --> 00:12:25.500
and it was called Norfolk County High, and Alexandria Park.
313
00:12:25.500 --> 00:12:30.036
And I went there from 8th, 9th, and 10th.
314
00:12:30.036 --> 00:12:31.320
Did they bus people in?
315
00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:33.120
Yeah, all these students were bused,
316
00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:34.140
I'm just saying,
317
00:12:34.140 --> 00:12:36.960
the distance is more than you would imagine today.
318
00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:39.720
It's not like busing from one neighborhood to another.
319
00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.420
It was busing from one county to another.
320
00:12:42.420 --> 00:12:44.940
I mean, from one area, rather.
321
00:12:44.940 --> 00:12:46.890
It was all called Norfolk County,
322
00:12:46.890 --> 00:12:50.010
but it was just such a (laughs) real large area.
323
00:12:50.010 --> 00:12:54.150
I mean, it would be miles, more than 20 miles.
324
00:12:54.150 --> 00:12:55.650
That's a long way.
325
00:12:55.650 --> 00:12:57.210
Were there any teachers in high school
326
00:12:57.210 --> 00:13:00.540
that influenced you or impacted you
327
00:13:00.540 --> 00:13:01.957
and the decisions that you made,
328
00:13:01.957 --> 00:13:04.290
you know, to go into teaching?
329
00:13:04.290 --> 00:13:06.480
Oh, that was already done by my mother.
330
00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:09.630
My mother always told me I was going to be a teacher.
331
00:13:09.630 --> 00:13:11.197
All my life, I just knew.
332
00:13:11.197 --> 00:13:12.990
I mean, I had no choice.
333
00:13:12.990 --> 00:13:16.320
My momma told me I was going to be a teacher all my life.
334
00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:19.410
I had two aunts in Winston-Salem who were teachers.
335
00:13:19.410 --> 00:13:22.113
Lois Clement, at that time, and Naomi Clement.
336
00:13:23.700 --> 00:13:25.680
Lois and Naomi-
We call her Aunt Lois
337
00:13:25.680 --> 00:13:28.140
and Aunt Na.
338
00:13:28.140 --> 00:13:28.973
N-A.
339
00:13:29.970 --> 00:13:32.910
They were teachers, and they would come here periodically.
340
00:13:32.910 --> 00:13:35.700
And so those were the teachers in our family.
341
00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:37.980
Did your mother ever regret not going to college?
342
00:13:37.980 --> 00:13:39.720
Did she ever tell you that-?
She didn't say it,
343
00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:40.683
but possibly.
344
00:13:41.520 --> 00:13:44.130
Because my mother overcompensated in every way,
345
00:13:44.130 --> 00:13:46.590
she was very industrious, very smart,
346
00:13:46.590 --> 00:13:49.020
and she was very creative in every sense of the word.
347
00:13:49.020 --> 00:13:51.210
So we know she should have been a teacher,
348
00:13:51.210 --> 00:13:52.530
or should have gone to college.
349
00:13:52.530 --> 00:13:54.150
And had she gone to college,
350
00:13:54.150 --> 00:13:55.980
she would not have had the opportunities we had,
351
00:13:55.980 --> 00:13:58.380
because the biggest thing you saw
352
00:13:58.380 --> 00:14:01.585
was a person coming out being a secretary or a teacher.
353
00:14:01.585 --> 00:14:03.120
Right.
And maybe a nurse.
354
00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.730
But I don't remember Black women doing anything else.
355
00:14:05.730 --> 00:14:07.080
Just being secretaries and teachers.
356
00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:07.913
Right.
357
00:14:07.913 --> 00:14:09.900
And a nurse.
And nurses.
358
00:14:09.900 --> 00:14:11.520
Mm-hmm.
359
00:14:11.520 --> 00:14:15.420
But there was no other degreed person that I was aware of,
360
00:14:15.420 --> 00:14:17.340
any Black who did anything,
361
00:14:17.340 --> 00:14:19.240
if she was a woman, she was a teacher.
362
00:14:20.250 --> 00:14:21.690
So they didn't have female lawyers
363
00:14:21.690 --> 00:14:22.650
in those-
Not at all.
364
00:14:22.650 --> 00:14:26.223
I never heard of one in Virginia.
365
00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:28.629
What about your teachers
366
00:14:28.629 --> 00:14:29.520
in high school?
Oh, in high school,
367
00:14:29.520 --> 00:14:33.270
getting back to high school, certain teachers stand out.
368
00:14:33.270 --> 00:14:36.123
Ms. Andrews was my home ec teacher.
369
00:14:37.050 --> 00:14:41.490
I started taking sewing, and even though I sew today,
370
00:14:41.490 --> 00:14:45.600
I think indirectly, she was such a disciplinarian
371
00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:48.600
and she was such a rigid, strict type person
372
00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:51.390
that I think I always remembered the things she did
373
00:14:51.390 --> 00:14:52.223
in that sewing class.
374
00:14:52.223 --> 00:14:54.270
But we didn't do as much sewing
375
00:14:54.270 --> 00:14:56.430
as we did learning the rules of housekeeping
376
00:14:56.430 --> 00:14:57.630
and things like that.
377
00:14:57.630 --> 00:14:59.430
But one of the people who stood out
378
00:14:59.430 --> 00:15:03.600
in my mind was my biology teacher, Mr. Clifton McDonald.
379
00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:04.980
One of the things you had to do,
380
00:15:04.980 --> 00:15:08.070
and this was 10th grade, was dissect a frog.
381
00:15:08.070 --> 00:15:10.590
And I was so afraid of it.
382
00:15:10.590 --> 00:15:13.890
He compensated and let me write a report
383
00:15:13.890 --> 00:15:15.690
instead of having to take away a frog,
384
00:15:15.690 --> 00:15:18.180
because he sensed that I was so afraid.
385
00:15:18.180 --> 00:15:23.180
And he also made me enjoy, you know, being who I was.
386
00:15:23.910 --> 00:15:26.370
I had a crush on him.
(interviewer laughs)
387
00:15:26.370 --> 00:15:27.450
He explained it to my mother
388
00:15:27.450 --> 00:15:29.760
because that's when men were gentlemen,
389
00:15:29.760 --> 00:15:31.710
and I didn't even know what a crush was,
390
00:15:31.710 --> 00:15:32.543
but he let me know.
391
00:15:32.543 --> 00:15:33.920
I mean, he let my mama know.
392
00:15:36.510 --> 00:15:37.343
Can I tell you
393
00:15:37.343 --> 00:15:38.760
about my band teacher?
Sure, sure.
394
00:15:38.760 --> 00:15:42.870
Mr. Oliver Owens was our band teacher,
395
00:15:42.870 --> 00:15:47.870
and he (laughs) encouraged my parents to get me a trumpet.
396
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:52.410
And, I mean, he was the person responsible
397
00:15:52.410 --> 00:15:54.060
for us finding it.
398
00:15:54.060 --> 00:15:55.380
And if I remember correctly,
399
00:15:55.380 --> 00:15:59.130
it seemed like we paid somebody $5.00 a week,
400
00:15:59.130 --> 00:16:02.430
if not $5.00 a month, until it was paid for.
401
00:16:02.430 --> 00:16:05.370
But he was the one who made it very simple
402
00:16:05.370 --> 00:16:07.920
for me to enjoy band, and I loved band.
403
00:16:07.920 --> 00:16:09.570
And that was at Norfolk County High.
404
00:16:09.570 --> 00:16:11.280
You want me to stay right there, or go to my other,
405
00:16:11.280 --> 00:16:12.880
when they changed schools?
406
00:16:12.880 --> 00:16:14.002
It's whatever
407
00:16:14.002 --> 00:16:15.080
you want to do.
Okay.
408
00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.540
In 10th grade they started building a school in this side,
409
00:16:18.540 --> 00:16:20.730
which at that time was called South Norfolk.
410
00:16:20.730 --> 00:16:22.320
This area was called South Norfolk.
411
00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:25.200
The whole area was called Norfolk County.
412
00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:27.330
And now this, it was good and bad
413
00:16:27.330 --> 00:16:28.740
because the sad part was,
414
00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:32.880
we had to break ties with friends we had met from 8th-10th.
415
00:16:32.880 --> 00:16:35.550
It was a complete new school.
416
00:16:35.550 --> 00:16:38.490
In 11th grade, we came to a new school,
417
00:16:38.490 --> 00:16:40.020
and even though it was inferior,
418
00:16:40.020 --> 00:16:42.180
it looked like it was a still brand new school.
419
00:16:42.180 --> 00:16:45.000
But later, you know, we realized it was an inferior school.
420
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.000
So that meant we lost all those contacts
421
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.790
that we had made from 8th-10th.
422
00:16:50.790 --> 00:16:53.010
But one of the good things was,
423
00:16:53.010 --> 00:16:56.340
the teachers there wanted to make sure
424
00:16:56.340 --> 00:16:57.870
that we would be prepared for life.
425
00:16:57.870 --> 00:16:59.910
And this is where I remember teachers
426
00:16:59.910 --> 00:17:02.760
who probably did a great job of trying
427
00:17:02.760 --> 00:17:04.770
to prepare us for college.
428
00:17:04.770 --> 00:17:09.770
Now, I met another band director named Ernest Owes.
429
00:17:09.870 --> 00:17:11.850
Now Mr. Ernest Owes realized
430
00:17:11.850 --> 00:17:13.890
that the trumpet was too hard for me
431
00:17:13.890 --> 00:17:16.470
and suggested that I use a baritone,
432
00:17:16.470 --> 00:17:19.533
and to my regret on one part,
433
00:17:20.550 --> 00:17:22.950
I would not read the bass clef.
434
00:17:22.950 --> 00:17:26.250
He translated every song that I was supposed
435
00:17:26.250 --> 00:17:28.140
to learn in band into treble key
436
00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:31.260
to make it easier for me to play the baritone horn.
437
00:17:31.260 --> 00:17:34.320
And that is something I vividly remember.
438
00:17:34.320 --> 00:17:37.170
So they wanted to make it-
Make it easy
439
00:17:37.170 --> 00:17:38.799
for the student.
440
00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:40.740
Could you describe some of the football games?
441
00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:41.573
Would you all play
442
00:17:41.573 --> 00:17:42.600
at the football games?
That was the only,
443
00:17:42.600 --> 00:17:44.790
well, talking about your mama's rule-
444
00:17:44.790 --> 00:17:47.010
I was raised in what was called Holy Sanctified
445
00:17:47.010 --> 00:17:49.500
in those days, but now we call it Pentecostal.
446
00:17:49.500 --> 00:17:50.850
Had it not been for band,
447
00:17:50.850 --> 00:17:53.100
I would not have gone to any school activities.
448
00:17:53.100 --> 00:17:55.440
I was in this choir, at that time you could be in choir.
449
00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:57.570
I got in everything I could get in
450
00:17:57.570 --> 00:17:59.100
to make sure I could go to some things.
451
00:17:59.100 --> 00:18:01.290
I never would have gone to a game,
452
00:18:01.290 --> 00:18:02.190
those were the days
453
00:18:02.190 --> 00:18:05.130
when you wore (laughs) uniforms with pants,
454
00:18:05.130 --> 00:18:07.530
and you didn't wear pants in ordinary life.
455
00:18:07.530 --> 00:18:09.240
That was the only way I could wear pants.
456
00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:13.950
Our uniform at Carver was dark blue and orange,
457
00:18:13.950 --> 00:18:17.160
and I can't remember what our slogan was,
458
00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:20.250
but that was the only way that I could go to a game.
459
00:18:20.250 --> 00:18:22.860
And we had some games, and we played,
460
00:18:22.860 --> 00:18:24.540
I don't know what class schools they would play,
461
00:18:24.540 --> 00:18:25.410
but they would.
462
00:18:25.410 --> 00:18:26.243
Oh!
463
00:18:26.243 --> 00:18:29.610
In band, we had what we had called band festivals.
464
00:18:29.610 --> 00:18:33.030
And we went to Petersburg and different places like that.
465
00:18:33.030 --> 00:18:35.040
And that was, like, an all day event.
466
00:18:35.040 --> 00:18:37.860
So I'm assuming it might have been on a Saturday.
467
00:18:37.860 --> 00:18:39.660
But I did go to games.
468
00:18:39.660 --> 00:18:43.653
But our school was not a top level team at that time.
469
00:18:44.770 --> 00:18:47.793
It was like a beginner's school, 11th and 12th grade.
470
00:18:48.840 --> 00:18:50.160
Did Carver have a library?
471
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:51.692
Do you remember
472
00:18:51.692 --> 00:18:53.100
if Carver had-
It had a library,
473
00:18:53.100 --> 00:18:57.690
but it was not a bonafide top-of-the-line.
474
00:18:57.690 --> 00:19:01.020
And I'm sure that most of those books were old-type books.
475
00:19:01.020 --> 00:19:03.243
It was not a top-of-the-line library.
476
00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:07.020
Would they have, like, missing volumes, and-
477
00:19:07.020 --> 00:19:09.997
I have a feeling that I remember, I'll put it this way,
478
00:19:09.997 --> 00:19:12.213
nobody required us to write a term paper.
479
00:19:13.230 --> 00:19:16.290
I never went to the library to write, to do research.
480
00:19:16.290 --> 00:19:18.060
I was talking to William Coker,
481
00:19:18.060 --> 00:19:19.920
who's Ms. Dozier's-
He was in my class.
482
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:20.753
And, you know, he was telling me
483
00:19:20.753 --> 00:19:22.800
how the desks were all old, and-
484
00:19:22.800 --> 00:19:23.850
Everything we had.
485
00:19:23.850 --> 00:19:26.760
But, like I said, at that time, you didn't realize.
486
00:19:26.760 --> 00:19:27.780
It's when you look back,
487
00:19:27.780 --> 00:19:29.490
like, it was after I became a teacher
488
00:19:29.490 --> 00:19:31.890
that I realized how obsolete our books were.
489
00:19:31.890 --> 00:19:32.723
See?
490
00:19:32.723 --> 00:19:35.070
And it was actually during desegregation
491
00:19:35.070 --> 00:19:36.660
when I realized what had happened,
492
00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:39.180
because I was, at that time-
493
00:19:39.180 --> 00:19:40.920
This is really sort of jumping ahead
494
00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:42.270
of my high school days.
495
00:19:42.270 --> 00:19:43.950
When I started teaching in Chesapeake,
496
00:19:43.950 --> 00:19:45.690
I was in an all Black school.
497
00:19:45.690 --> 00:19:47.670
And I thought everything, you know, was all right.
498
00:19:47.670 --> 00:19:49.920
I mean, this is what I was accustomed to.
499
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:53.430
And what happened, this person, Dr. Kingdom, sat in my class
500
00:19:53.430 --> 00:19:57.300
and would observe, and I just took it as an observation,
501
00:19:57.300 --> 00:19:59.587
this had to be '68 or '69.
502
00:20:00.540 --> 00:20:04.500
Well, between '67 and '69, I'll say between '67,
503
00:20:04.500 --> 00:20:07.770
because I started Southeastern in '66.
504
00:20:07.770 --> 00:20:12.770
And my supervisor was Mr. William Johnson.
505
00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:14.970
And Mr. Johnson would observe me
506
00:20:14.970 --> 00:20:17.220
and give nice evaluations and whatever,
507
00:20:17.220 --> 00:20:19.650
but this other man would sit in for an hour at a time.
508
00:20:19.650 --> 00:20:22.800
And I still never realized what happened was-
509
00:20:22.800 --> 00:20:24.720
Later I was one of the Blacks
510
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:26.730
that went to Great Bridge Elementary School
511
00:20:26.730 --> 00:20:28.260
for desegregation purposes.
512
00:20:28.260 --> 00:20:29.610
And so I looked back in retrospect
513
00:20:29.610 --> 00:20:32.310
and said, "Oh, they sat down to make sure you were qualified
514
00:20:32.310 --> 00:20:33.537
to teach in a White school."
515
00:20:33.537 --> 00:20:35.610
Now I believe I'm correct on that,
516
00:20:35.610 --> 00:20:37.470
even though nobody ever said it.
517
00:20:37.470 --> 00:20:40.950
To have a person watch you that long
518
00:20:40.950 --> 00:20:42.600
and sense that you were okay
519
00:20:42.600 --> 00:20:44.070
to teach in an all White school.
520
00:20:44.070 --> 00:20:46.020
Was he a White super-
He was a White supervisor.
521
00:20:46.020 --> 00:20:48.480
Mr. Johnson was Black, and the other man who came,
522
00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:51.120
Dr. Kingdom, was White, from the school board.
523
00:20:51.120 --> 00:20:52.200
Kingdom or King?
524
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.930
K-I-N-G-D-O-M.
Okay.
525
00:20:54.930 --> 00:20:55.983
Dr. Kingdom.
526
00:20:57.750 --> 00:20:59.460
And Mr. Johnson is still living.
527
00:20:59.460 --> 00:21:00.720
Actually, he has a grandchild
528
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:02.620
in the school where I currently teach.
529
00:21:03.660 --> 00:21:06.600
Did your parents regulate your social activities
530
00:21:06.600 --> 00:21:07.650
when you were in high school?
531
00:21:07.650 --> 00:21:12.650
Such as they were, that my social activities
532
00:21:12.810 --> 00:21:15.480
by today's standard would be considered zero.
533
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:18.360
Because, I mean, the biggest thing we could do,
534
00:21:18.360 --> 00:21:20.670
we would go to school and stay in church.
535
00:21:20.670 --> 00:21:22.230
And I worked after school- oh, let me tell you
536
00:21:22.230 --> 00:21:24.060
about my working experience.
Oh yes, please!
537
00:21:24.060 --> 00:21:26.433
I have been working since I was 13.
538
00:21:27.744 --> 00:21:30.300
I worked at Batagallia Produce.
539
00:21:30.300 --> 00:21:35.300
B-A-T-A-G-A-L-L-I-A.
540
00:21:36.430 --> 00:21:40.350
These were Italian owners of a produce company.
541
00:21:40.350 --> 00:21:42.123
I stripped kale,
542
00:21:43.050 --> 00:21:46.860
pushed a hand cart with three bushels of whatever they had.
543
00:21:46.860 --> 00:21:48.570
It was a seasonal type thing,
544
00:21:48.570 --> 00:21:50.190
whatever was in season.
545
00:21:50.190 --> 00:21:54.390
And I worked and my money went directly (laughs)
546
00:21:54.390 --> 00:21:55.440
to my mother.
547
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:58.200
And even if I had a check, it was on her,
548
00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:00.180
the hours were put on her stuff.
549
00:22:00.180 --> 00:22:01.013
Oh!
550
00:22:01.013 --> 00:22:01.994
Back it up.
551
00:22:01.994 --> 00:22:04.750
Mother worked after school punching
552
00:22:06.780 --> 00:22:09.030
stubs for the workers at a produce thing,
553
00:22:09.030 --> 00:22:11.760
but she did not have what you would call a full-time,
554
00:22:11.760 --> 00:22:14.070
the way most people would call a job.
555
00:22:14.070 --> 00:22:16.350
But she worked to make it compatible with the hours
556
00:22:16.350 --> 00:22:17.730
that we were in school.
557
00:22:17.730 --> 00:22:20.543
And she was called a strawboffee,
558
00:22:20.543 --> 00:22:23.543
I don't know if that was a negative or a positive statement.
559
00:22:24.510 --> 00:22:27.093
But from the time I was 13,
560
00:22:28.470 --> 00:22:30.390
and I'm going to say that was 8th or 9th grade,
561
00:22:30.390 --> 00:22:32.578
until I finished high school,
562
00:22:32.578 --> 00:22:34.320
I worked at the Batagallia Produce after school.
563
00:22:34.320 --> 00:22:38.250
And the hours would range anywhere from 3-11 to 12 at night.
564
00:22:38.250 --> 00:22:39.846
How would you get your homework done?
565
00:22:39.846 --> 00:22:42.400
That's why I said I had to have been smart.
566
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:43.233
Yeah.
567
00:22:43.233 --> 00:22:45.240
Even then I didn't realize how smart I was
568
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:46.690
because I was a good student.
569
00:22:47.610 --> 00:22:49.050
And plus it was required.
570
00:22:49.050 --> 00:22:50.700
You were going to work plus do homework,
571
00:22:50.700 --> 00:22:52.230
now you talking about discipline.
572
00:22:52.230 --> 00:22:54.930
So between work, church, and school,
573
00:22:54.930 --> 00:22:56.940
there was not much of a social life,
574
00:22:56.940 --> 00:23:00.420
but our social life centered around our church activities
575
00:23:00.420 --> 00:23:02.433
and all playing the piano on Sundays.
576
00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:06.630
We were limited with the kind of things that-
577
00:23:06.630 --> 00:23:08.640
Like I said, my family was a real,
578
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:09.960
what would be called strict.
579
00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:11.670
Even in those days, we would call it strict.
580
00:23:11.670 --> 00:23:13.720
We were noticed as those sanctified folk.
581
00:23:17.220 --> 00:23:19.530
So you never got to go, like, the drug stores
582
00:23:19.530 --> 00:23:21.120
for sodas and things like that?
583
00:23:21.120 --> 00:23:24.720
No, there was a store in this neighborhood
584
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:26.670
and we could go and get sodas.
585
00:23:26.670 --> 00:23:28.950
But my mom would (laughs), this is sort of funny,
586
00:23:28.950 --> 00:23:30.510
she would divide it up with water
587
00:23:30.510 --> 00:23:32.850
and put sugar and, you know, make it stretch.
588
00:23:32.850 --> 00:23:34.920
Or we would get packs of Kool-Aid and she'd make it.
589
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:37.590
We had plenty to eat at all times.
590
00:23:37.590 --> 00:23:41.190
And mother cooked a lot, and she cooked a dessert every day.
591
00:23:41.190 --> 00:23:43.410
Now that's something that stands out.
592
00:23:43.410 --> 00:23:44.960
She cooked a dessert every day.
593
00:23:47.130 --> 00:23:48.013
Can you put that on pause?
594
00:23:48.013 --> 00:23:48.846
[INTERRUPTION]
595
00:23:48.846 --> 00:23:50.118
Okay.
596
00:23:50.118 --> 00:23:52.923
When you were working for the produce-
597
00:23:52.923 --> 00:23:55.860
Yeah, Batagallia.
Batagallia Produce,
598
00:23:55.860 --> 00:23:57.168
how much did you earn?
599
00:23:57.168 --> 00:23:58.001
Do you remember
600
00:23:58.001 --> 00:24:00.450
what you earned?
I can't remember if it was,
601
00:24:00.450 --> 00:24:02.010
it was a minimal amount,
602
00:24:02.010 --> 00:24:03.240
but it was a constant.
603
00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:07.830
Because my daddy worked at the, like I said, the Navy-
604
00:24:07.830 --> 00:24:09.690
He could have been working at the Lonestar,
605
00:24:09.690 --> 00:24:12.090
let's say he was working at the Lone Star Cement Plant now,
606
00:24:12.090 --> 00:24:15.810
because right after 1945, when the war ended,
607
00:24:15.810 --> 00:24:17.460
he went right across the water
608
00:24:17.460 --> 00:24:19.167
to the Lone Star Cement Company and got a job.
609
00:24:19.167 --> 00:24:22.290
And my daddy was industrious, worked all the time.
610
00:24:22.290 --> 00:24:25.740
To compensate for having five children and a wife,
611
00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:27.270
he worked at Batagallia Produce,
612
00:24:27.270 --> 00:24:29.160
but I can't remember what he did other
613
00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:31.470
than I know he cleaned the office.
614
00:24:31.470 --> 00:24:32.790
So that meant my daddy was there,
615
00:24:32.790 --> 00:24:35.880
my mama was there, and I worked.
616
00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:39.990
And whatever must have been the minimum wage at that time,
617
00:24:39.990 --> 00:24:41.834
that's what we got.
618
00:24:41.834 --> 00:24:42.667
What I got.
Did your brothers
619
00:24:42.667 --> 00:24:43.500
and sisters have to work also?
620
00:24:43.500 --> 00:24:44.745
Yes.
621
00:24:44.745 --> 00:24:49.745
My sister worked for a teacher, and she cleaned her house.
622
00:24:50.190 --> 00:24:53.160
And my two brothers worked for a man who had-
623
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.170
Everybody worked except my baby sister, Delores,
624
00:24:55.170 --> 00:24:57.270
I don't remember her ever working.
625
00:24:57.270 --> 00:25:00.420
But we were a year apart in ages.
626
00:25:00.420 --> 00:25:02.910
But my brother worked for a man who owned a wood yard.
627
00:25:02.910 --> 00:25:04.050
This was a Black guy.
628
00:25:04.050 --> 00:25:05.400
Did they all get to go to college?
629
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:06.233
No, I'm the only one
630
00:25:06.233 --> 00:25:07.726
that went to college.
Okay.
631
00:25:07.726 --> 00:25:09.197
And I'm the oldest.
632
00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:14.613
How did the people who owned the business treat you?
633
00:25:14.613 --> 00:25:16.502
Were you treated well by-
634
00:25:16.502 --> 00:25:17.547
Well, I would say yes,
635
00:25:17.547 --> 00:25:19.050
and I think we were treated well,
636
00:25:19.050 --> 00:25:20.550
but one thing that stands out in my mind,
637
00:25:20.550 --> 00:25:21.950
I think I told this to Ms. Coker-
638
00:25:23.333 --> 00:25:24.933
Dozier.
Dozier.
639
00:25:27.060 --> 00:25:30.600
At that time, our bosses were our age,
640
00:25:30.600 --> 00:25:32.490
and we knew that they were young men,
641
00:25:32.490 --> 00:25:35.460
but we called them Mr. Gay, and Mr. So-and-So
642
00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:37.080
when they called us by our name.
643
00:25:37.080 --> 00:25:38.490
Now that was one of the things.
644
00:25:38.490 --> 00:25:39.990
But as far as being fair,
645
00:25:39.990 --> 00:25:42.000
I believe they tried to be fair.
646
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:44.800
But yet, on the other hand, you sort of knew your place.
647
00:25:46.650 --> 00:25:49.080
Could you describe the neighborhood that you lived in?
648
00:25:49.080 --> 00:25:52.830
What section of Norfolk?
Right where we are now
649
00:25:52.830 --> 00:25:54.510
are the woods where we played.
650
00:25:54.510 --> 00:25:55.500
We called these the woods.
651
00:25:55.500 --> 00:25:58.170
Where my house is, the city,
652
00:25:58.170 --> 00:26:00.960
I guess this became air property that nobody claimed,
653
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:05.220
or taxes weren't paid, and this land was bought by the city.
654
00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:08.760
This particular area was a wooded area.
655
00:26:08.760 --> 00:26:11.490
And we just had the little hedges and wild roses.
656
00:26:11.490 --> 00:26:12.870
And my house would have been
657
00:26:12.870 --> 00:26:14.580
in the middle of Strawberry Lane.
658
00:26:14.580 --> 00:26:16.080
Where we were raised was
659
00:26:16.080 --> 00:26:19.680
in the middle of Strawberry Lane in Cardigan,
660
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:21.480
where I am now, our house.
661
00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:22.890
And it was sort of, like, in a field,
662
00:26:22.890 --> 00:26:24.120
it wasn't a real street then.
663
00:26:24.120 --> 00:26:25.650
And we had, like, a little path.
664
00:26:25.650 --> 00:26:28.770
And all this area right here was sort of wooded.
665
00:26:28.770 --> 00:26:32.103
And we had unpaved streets,
666
00:26:33.270 --> 00:26:36.150
and it was a house that would be on the corner
667
00:26:36.150 --> 00:26:38.700
of where this Strawberry Lane Daycare is,
668
00:26:38.700 --> 00:26:40.170
which is Rhodes and Strawberry.
669
00:26:40.170 --> 00:26:43.320
And we had a best friend called the Hawkins family,
670
00:26:43.320 --> 00:26:45.270
and all their children played together.
671
00:26:46.224 --> 00:26:47.373
At at our house,
672
00:26:48.930 --> 00:26:50.940
everybody knew everybody,
673
00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:52.773
everybody looked out for everybody.
674
00:26:53.610 --> 00:26:55.290
And they had three major churches.
675
00:26:55.290 --> 00:26:59.460
St. Joseph AME, First Baptist, and Providence.
676
00:26:59.460 --> 00:27:01.440
So our lives sort of centered around that
677
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:03.180
because the only time
678
00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:05.670
that I remember going to the beach
679
00:27:05.670 --> 00:27:07.230
was when one of those churches took
680
00:27:07.230 --> 00:27:08.910
what they called excursions.
681
00:27:08.910 --> 00:27:11.370
And we were allowed to go to the beach with our family.
682
00:27:11.370 --> 00:27:14.130
I don't remember going unattended.
683
00:27:14.130 --> 00:27:15.780
And I do know I couldn't go at night.
684
00:27:15.780 --> 00:27:18.450
And the other thing is, girls who didn't work
685
00:27:18.450 --> 00:27:19.920
at this produce place where I worked,
686
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:21.150
in the summer, worked at the beach,
687
00:27:21.150 --> 00:27:24.720
and mother never, ever let me go work at the beach
688
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:26.910
because that was considered worldly.
689
00:27:26.910 --> 00:27:28.660
So I could never work at the beach.
690
00:27:29.701 --> 00:27:31.770
But on the excursions to the beach-
691
00:27:31.770 --> 00:27:33.510
We had a good time!
692
00:27:33.510 --> 00:27:36.120
You had a great big picnic basket loaded with everything
693
00:27:36.120 --> 00:27:39.300
that people could cook. Fried chicken, cakes,
694
00:27:39.300 --> 00:27:41.103
pickles, potato salad,
695
00:27:42.690 --> 00:27:44.460
Kool-Aid in a jug.
696
00:27:44.460 --> 00:27:46.860
I mean, my whole, like, my daddy and all,
697
00:27:46.860 --> 00:27:48.060
there's seven of us,
698
00:27:48.060 --> 00:27:49.740
now that was an excursion for everybody.
699
00:27:49.740 --> 00:27:50.760
Everybody went.
700
00:27:50.760 --> 00:27:54.690
And if I'm not mistaken, I think we must have gone on a bus.
701
00:27:54.690 --> 00:27:55.523
And did you all go to,
702
00:27:55.523 --> 00:27:56.865
is it Sea-
Seaview Beach.
703
00:27:56.865 --> 00:27:58.565
Seaview.
It's called Seaview.
704
00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:02.580
And that was an all Black segment of it.
705
00:28:02.580 --> 00:28:07.462
But at that time they had an amusement park. At this-
706
00:28:07.462 --> 00:28:10.410
I can't remember if we were allowed
707
00:28:10.410 --> 00:28:12.000
to go there then or not,
708
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:13.620
but I know it was something you could see.
709
00:28:13.620 --> 00:28:15.600
But Seaview was nothing but a beach,
710
00:28:15.600 --> 00:28:19.890
but it was an all day trip, and it was very good.
711
00:28:19.890 --> 00:28:21.570
How was it divided?
712
00:28:21.570 --> 00:28:24.870
How did you know where Seaview ended and one
713
00:28:24.870 --> 00:28:28.503
of the White beaches-?
At that time it wasn't,
714
00:28:30.600 --> 00:28:33.240
they had more cottages on the beach than anything else.
715
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:36.220
And I believe that there might have been a little
716
00:28:37.560 --> 00:28:38.580
board-type something,
717
00:28:38.580 --> 00:28:41.820
but the beach was not as crowded as it is now.
718
00:28:41.820 --> 00:28:44.670
So the Black area was just designated
719
00:28:44.670 --> 00:28:46.260
in that one little portion.
720
00:28:46.260 --> 00:28:47.610
So there was no danger.
721
00:28:47.610 --> 00:28:49.410
We didn't even see White folk.
722
00:28:49.410 --> 00:28:50.850
So their area was farther down,
723
00:28:50.850 --> 00:28:52.900
but it was not crowded the way it is now.
724
00:28:55.410 --> 00:28:56.850
So you had Sundays off, though,
725
00:28:56.850 --> 00:28:58.470
you didn't work on Sundays?
726
00:28:58.470 --> 00:29:00.060
Oh right, we did nothing on Sunday.
727
00:29:00.060 --> 00:29:00.893
Mother didn't even cook on Sunday,
728
00:29:00.893 --> 00:29:01.920
Mother would cook on Saturday.
729
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:04.293
Every Saturday, she made macaroni and cheese,
730
00:29:05.130 --> 00:29:07.560
potato salad, cooked fried chicken.
731
00:29:07.560 --> 00:29:09.990
Mother didn't believe in cooking on Sunday (laughs).
732
00:29:09.990 --> 00:29:12.000
We did nothing on Sunday but go to church
733
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:14.130
and sit in the living room and play music
734
00:29:14.130 --> 00:29:15.690
on the piano, church music.
735
00:29:15.690 --> 00:29:17.670
Or listen to the radio.
736
00:29:17.670 --> 00:29:20.370
And listen to, oh, you know, Christian music.
737
00:29:20.370 --> 00:29:21.480
So you all would sing?
738
00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:22.560
Sing, right, right.
739
00:29:22.560 --> 00:29:24.990
That was a ritual, plan.
740
00:29:24.990 --> 00:29:26.520
Did this neighborhood have a name?
741
00:29:26.520 --> 00:29:27.570
Yeah, called Westmunden.
742
00:29:27.570 --> 00:29:31.819
And even today it's called W-E-S-T- one word.
743
00:29:31.819 --> 00:29:32.652
Oh, it's one word?
744
00:29:32.652 --> 00:29:36.163
W-E-S-T-M-U-N-D-E-N.
745
00:29:36.163 --> 00:29:37.800
Okay.
746
00:29:37.800 --> 00:29:39.720
What kind of families lived here?
747
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:40.650
Were most of them
748
00:29:40.650 --> 00:29:42.033
working class-?
Most of them
749
00:29:42.033 --> 00:29:43.350
were working class.
750
00:29:43.350 --> 00:29:46.260
Ms. Cuffee, my first teacher, lived next door,
751
00:29:46.260 --> 00:29:48.360
but to look at the family,
752
00:29:48.360 --> 00:29:51.060
and I'm not taken away from her prestige,
753
00:29:51.060 --> 00:29:52.860
it was just a regular family.
754
00:29:52.860 --> 00:29:54.480
But there was another set
755
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:56.100
of teachers called the Jones sisters,
756
00:29:56.100 --> 00:29:58.300
Miss Ida and Miss Susie, they were teachers.
757
00:29:59.910 --> 00:30:02.763
Mrs. Skinner, Mrs. Miller.
758
00:30:04.955 --> 00:30:07.830
There were some families who had teachers,
759
00:30:07.830 --> 00:30:08.880
but the majority
760
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:11.973
of the people were a working class neighborhood.
761
00:30:12.870 --> 00:30:14.130
And most of the men worked
762
00:30:14.130 --> 00:30:17.550
at the Navy Yard at that time.
763
00:30:17.550 --> 00:30:18.900
It's not too far away.
764
00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:19.733
Right.
765
00:30:26.490 --> 00:30:28.020
Were there any sections in Norfolk
766
00:30:28.020 --> 00:30:30.720
that were considered bad sections where you weren't allowed
767
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:32.490
to go into?
768
00:30:32.490 --> 00:30:34.887
I would say the Chase Street (laughs) area
769
00:30:34.887 --> 00:30:37.167
had a reputation (laughs). Called the red light district,
770
00:30:37.167 --> 00:30:38.610
they might not have called it that,
771
00:30:38.610 --> 00:30:41.340
but. It was like at night, it would change-
772
00:30:41.340 --> 00:30:43.800
We could go there because that was a Black section.
773
00:30:43.800 --> 00:30:47.040
And that's where you went to go to the Woolworth
774
00:30:47.040 --> 00:30:49.080
and a store called-
775
00:30:49.080 --> 00:30:51.000
Well, there was a clothing store
776
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.625
at the corner of Brambleton and Yarmouth.
777
00:30:53.625 --> 00:30:54.458
And we had a bus,
778
00:30:54.458 --> 00:30:57.150
a red and yellow bus, called the new light bus.
779
00:30:57.150 --> 00:30:58.770
And that bus would take you there,
780
00:30:58.770 --> 00:31:01.950
and if you missed that last bus, you couldn't get home.
781
00:31:01.950 --> 00:31:03.243
Was it a city bus?
782
00:31:04.755 --> 00:31:06.780
No, it wasn't a city, privately owned bus.
783
00:31:06.780 --> 00:31:07.620
It might have been owned
784
00:31:07.620 --> 00:31:10.200
by the same folk who owned Seaview Beach.
785
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:11.700
So it wasn't a segregated bus
786
00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:13.470
where you had to-
No, right,
787
00:31:13.470 --> 00:31:15.360
that was a Black-owned bus for Black folk.
788
00:31:15.360 --> 00:31:16.611
So you didn't have
789
00:31:16.611 --> 00:31:17.444
to sit in the-
Right.
790
00:31:17.444 --> 00:31:18.780
And to go to the city, you would have to walk all the way
791
00:31:18.780 --> 00:31:20.940
to South Norfolk and catch the trolley car.
792
00:31:20.940 --> 00:31:22.530
And that was very segregated.
793
00:31:22.530 --> 00:31:25.350
I mean, with a line on the bus,
794
00:31:25.350 --> 00:31:27.720
meaning you sat behind the line.
795
00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:31.860
Or stood, because if seats were empty in front of that line,
796
00:31:31.860 --> 00:31:33.270
you still stood up behind the line.
797
00:31:33.270 --> 00:31:36.603
You didn't go and sit in those seats, until 1954,
798
00:31:37.470 --> 00:31:38.703
or there about.
799
00:31:39.660 --> 00:31:40.500
Somewhere around-
So after
800
00:31:40.500 --> 00:31:42.510
the Montgomery Bus Boycott, then?
801
00:31:42.510 --> 00:31:44.324
It wasn't, I don't know if it was,
802
00:31:44.324 --> 00:31:46.593
well, that could have been it.
803
00:31:47.460 --> 00:31:48.720
Then that's beyond,
804
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.990
I know something very significant happened in '54-
805
00:31:51.990 --> 00:31:53.370
I'm not sure-
That I remember,
806
00:31:53.370 --> 00:31:56.100
because it was before the late sixties,
807
00:31:56.100 --> 00:31:57.810
because this happened before I went to Norfolk State,
808
00:31:57.810 --> 00:31:59.430
because I remember my daddy,
809
00:31:59.430 --> 00:32:01.650
I'm sort of paraphrasing, he was afraid,
810
00:32:01.650 --> 00:32:04.950
the minute that it was decreed that it was okay
811
00:32:04.950 --> 00:32:06.667
to sit anywhere, I remember he told us,
812
00:32:06.667 --> 00:32:09.690
"Oh, you ain't obliged to sit on that bus like that."
813
00:32:09.690 --> 00:32:11.880
And we would, I was determined that I was going to sit
814
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:13.350
in the front of the bus.
815
00:32:13.350 --> 00:32:14.183
Now I do remember that.
816
00:32:14.183 --> 00:32:17.430
And I remember his apprehension about that.
817
00:32:17.430 --> 00:32:20.211
So that was before Martin Luther King's time.
818
00:32:20.211 --> 00:32:21.480
So that was before that.
That was before that.
819
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:22.500
But so I'm saying it had
820
00:32:22.500 --> 00:32:25.560
to be after the 1954-type situation.
821
00:32:25.560 --> 00:32:26.490
That's what I think.
822
00:32:26.490 --> 00:32:28.200
So did you go and sit in the front
823
00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:29.580
of the bus?
Absolutely!
824
00:32:29.580 --> 00:32:30.900
Because at that time,
825
00:32:30.900 --> 00:32:32.670
actually I tell you when it had to have been,
826
00:32:32.670 --> 00:32:34.320
it was when I was at Norfolk State.
827
00:32:34.320 --> 00:32:38.130
So it had to be between '54 and '56.
828
00:32:38.130 --> 00:32:39.030
Because Norfolk State
829
00:32:39.030 --> 00:32:40.530
that time was called Little State,
830
00:32:40.530 --> 00:32:42.630
Norfolk Division of Virginia State College,
831
00:32:42.630 --> 00:32:43.980
and it was only two years.
832
00:32:43.980 --> 00:32:45.700
So it had to be between
833
00:32:46.650 --> 00:32:50.073
'54 and '56.
834
00:32:52.380 --> 00:32:54.720
Where did your family do their shopping?
835
00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:55.780
Did you go to Church Street?
836
00:32:57.090 --> 00:32:58.956
Well, Mother-
837
00:32:58.956 --> 00:33:00.923
We didn't do a lot of buying,
838
00:33:00.923 --> 00:33:02.160
not a lot of buying,
839
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:04.290
but if you really needed a certain-
840
00:33:04.290 --> 00:33:08.370
And you really got clothing more either for special times,
841
00:33:08.370 --> 00:33:10.560
like Christmas, Easter.
842
00:33:10.560 --> 00:33:14.130
Or, like, in my case, I remember needing some black shoes
843
00:33:14.130 --> 00:33:18.270
and a black dress to be at a convocation in Norfolk State,
844
00:33:18.270 --> 00:33:19.830
and we went to Rice's.
845
00:33:19.830 --> 00:33:24.090
But we went to a store called Anne Tell, I believe,
846
00:33:24.090 --> 00:33:25.830
these are Granby Street stores,
847
00:33:25.830 --> 00:33:27.690
but the only thing was, you couldn't try them on.
848
00:33:27.690 --> 00:33:28.523
You could go to the store,
849
00:33:28.523 --> 00:33:29.940
but you couldn't try the clothes on.
850
00:33:29.940 --> 00:33:30.900
So you could not try
851
00:33:30.900 --> 00:33:32.400
on the clothes?
No, you could not.
852
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:34.491
How did you determine what fit-
853
00:33:34.491 --> 00:33:36.090
As far as I know,
854
00:33:36.090 --> 00:33:38.310
I'm assuming your mother could hold it up to you.
855
00:33:38.310 --> 00:33:40.260
But I know you could not try on those dresses.
856
00:33:40.260 --> 00:33:42.743
You could not go in the dressing room.
857
00:33:42.743 --> 00:33:44.430
What about shoes?
That was the part
858
00:33:44.430 --> 00:33:47.190
I was trying to figure out, how we bought shoes.
859
00:33:47.190 --> 00:33:50.670
I'm not sure if the same rule held true.
860
00:33:50.670 --> 00:33:54.240
I do know for a fact that we didn't go
861
00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:55.950
to what I called the better store,
862
00:33:55.950 --> 00:33:58.650
we went to a store called L. Snyder's,
863
00:33:58.650 --> 00:34:03.650
and I think that's on St. Paul Boulevard now.
864
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:05.760
It's near the MacArthur Memorial now.
865
00:34:05.760 --> 00:34:07.800
But the shoe part, I don't remember.
866
00:34:07.800 --> 00:34:09.660
But, then again, you didn't buy that much.
867
00:34:09.660 --> 00:34:12.030
It wasn't like you'd go the way people go now.
868
00:34:12.030 --> 00:34:13.680
Every now and then you got a pair.
869
00:34:13.680 --> 00:34:16.620
For example, all children got shoes for school.
870
00:34:16.620 --> 00:34:18.570
So I can't remember how that was done.
871
00:34:18.570 --> 00:34:19.770
But you do remember not being able
872
00:34:19.770 --> 00:34:20.730
to try on the clothes.
Absolutely.
873
00:34:20.730 --> 00:34:22.440
I remember not being able to try on clothes.
874
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:23.430
What about groceries?
875
00:34:23.430 --> 00:34:24.890
Where'd you all go for the groceries?
876
00:34:24.890 --> 00:34:27.510
It was called Piggly Wiggly, it was in South Norfolk.
877
00:34:27.510 --> 00:34:31.620
My daddy had a bicycle, and he had a basket in the front.
878
00:34:31.620 --> 00:34:34.170
And I can't remember how he got those groceries loaded,
879
00:34:34.170 --> 00:34:37.020
but he was noted for going down the community,
880
00:34:37.020 --> 00:34:39.930
riding his bike and carrying all his groceries.
881
00:34:39.930 --> 00:34:40.909
You all didn't have a car?
882
00:34:40.909 --> 00:34:42.341
We did not have a car at that time.
883
00:34:42.341 --> 00:34:44.168
In Winston-Salem, he had a car,
884
00:34:44.168 --> 00:34:46.350
but when we came here, we did not have a car.
885
00:34:46.350 --> 00:34:48.340
From the time that I
886
00:34:49.560 --> 00:34:50.670
was a very little girl,
887
00:34:50.670 --> 00:34:54.540
I'm trying to, I can't remember when we got a car,
888
00:34:54.540 --> 00:34:56.670
but it wasn't while I was in high school.
889
00:34:56.670 --> 00:34:58.050
We did everything by walking.
890
00:34:58.050 --> 00:34:59.970
We walked from here to Campostella
891
00:34:59.970 --> 00:35:03.540
to go to church every single Sunday in a line.
892
00:35:03.540 --> 00:35:05.790
And we knew everybody from Westmont
893
00:35:05.790 --> 00:35:07.490
into South Norfolk to Campostella.
894
00:35:08.586 --> 00:35:10.800
That's a long walk.
That was a long walk.
895
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:11.640
It was a ritual.
896
00:35:11.640 --> 00:35:13.980
Like I said, that was something we did.
897
00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:15.660
And sometimes on Sunday we did it twice a day
898
00:35:15.660 --> 00:35:17.010
because you would go to,
899
00:35:17.010 --> 00:35:18.780
and mother always carried a shopping bag full
900
00:35:18.780 --> 00:35:20.493
of sandwiches, bologna sandwiches.
901
00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:25.800
Would you all sing on the way to church?
902
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:26.920
Would you sing
903
00:35:26.920 --> 00:35:27.753
religious songs?
Singing and talking,
904
00:35:27.753 --> 00:35:28.680
and religious songs.
905
00:35:28.680 --> 00:35:30.183
Always conversation.
906
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:32.433
Always singing.
907
00:35:34.590 --> 00:35:36.300
Did any of your relatives come
908
00:35:36.300 --> 00:35:38.793
from Winston-Salem to here, or was it just-
909
00:35:38.793 --> 00:35:39.933
Only to visit.
910
00:35:42.327 --> 00:35:44.691
We were the only family.
911
00:35:44.691 --> 00:35:45.750
We were the immediate family.
912
00:35:45.750 --> 00:35:47.070
We had no relatives here.
913
00:35:47.070 --> 00:35:49.180
Did you do any long distance traveling
914
00:35:50.370 --> 00:35:51.770
when you were growing up?
915
00:35:55.260 --> 00:35:56.943
I remember going,
916
00:36:00.150 --> 00:36:01.410
you mean like to visit, or-
917
00:36:01.410 --> 00:36:02.400
Yeah, to visit someone.
918
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:04.140
Did you have to get on the train
919
00:36:04.140 --> 00:36:05.790
or on the bus to travel?
No, we didn't do that,
920
00:36:05.790 --> 00:36:06.900
as far as I recall.
921
00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:08.580
Did you go by car, or-
922
00:36:08.580 --> 00:36:11.903
I'm just saying, we just about stayed put, mm-hmm.
923
00:36:11.903 --> 00:36:12.736
Okay.
924
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:19.170
Did anyone else from your community belong
925
00:36:19.170 --> 00:36:20.550
to the same church as you did?
926
00:36:20.550 --> 00:36:22.920
No, we didn't, and that's what made it such a lonely,
927
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:25.050
that part was, you know, very difficult.
928
00:36:25.050 --> 00:36:26.700
We were the only ones.
929
00:36:26.700 --> 00:36:28.170
At that time, we don't remember,
930
00:36:28.170 --> 00:36:30.420
I don't remember anybody in the community,
931
00:36:30.420 --> 00:36:33.300
you know, who was not Baptist or Methodist or Christian.
932
00:36:33.300 --> 00:36:34.543
Were you allowed to play with the other children?
933
00:36:34.543 --> 00:36:37.320
We could play, with restrictions, limitations,
934
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:40.170
meaning your parents, you know, had their rules.
935
00:36:40.170 --> 00:36:42.120
Did they have to approve who you played with?
936
00:36:42.120 --> 00:36:42.953
Yeah!
937
00:36:42.953 --> 00:36:44.340
Yes.
938
00:36:44.340 --> 00:36:46.350
We couldn't even go out of the yard without asking.
939
00:36:46.350 --> 00:36:47.850
And if you want to hear something funny,
940
00:36:47.850 --> 00:36:51.990
I got my lash, and we got whippings, I don't mean spanking.
941
00:36:51.990 --> 00:36:54.960
My mother beat me on July the fourth when I was 16 years old
942
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:58.200
for going out of the yard to Francis Smith's house.
943
00:36:58.200 --> 00:37:01.200
My uncle Paul had come down here from Washington, D.C.
944
00:37:01.200 --> 00:37:02.730
And you know how when your parents have company
945
00:37:02.730 --> 00:37:03.690
you think you're going to do something?
946
00:37:03.690 --> 00:37:06.450
All I did, just walked out the yard with a group.
947
00:37:06.450 --> 00:37:08.490
And when I came back, she beat me.
948
00:37:08.490 --> 00:37:10.323
And that was my 16th,
949
00:37:13.230 --> 00:37:14.640
I know I was 16!
950
00:37:14.640 --> 00:37:16.490
I want to say it was July the fourth.
951
00:37:17.640 --> 00:37:18.900
I was 16.
952
00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:20.460
So you had to ask permission to do
953
00:37:20.460 --> 00:37:21.660
just about anything.
To do things.
954
00:37:21.660 --> 00:37:22.493
Mm-hmm.
955
00:37:22.493 --> 00:37:23.910
What about when you went off to college?
956
00:37:23.910 --> 00:37:25.857
I mean, did you just go to Norfolk State-
957
00:37:25.857 --> 00:37:26.690
Right.
958
00:37:26.690 --> 00:37:30.390
I had an Aunt Mary who sent $100 for my graduation.
959
00:37:30.390 --> 00:37:33.000
My aunt lives in Washington D.C., and she worked,
960
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:35.520
and she was, like, one of the relatives
961
00:37:35.520 --> 00:37:38.880
who made it well enough to send back money to help.
962
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:40.170
She sent me a pink gown,
963
00:37:40.170 --> 00:37:41.790
but Mother never let me go to the prom.
964
00:37:41.790 --> 00:37:42.690
I never went to a prom.
965
00:37:42.690 --> 00:37:45.360
And she sent me a pink ballerina evening gown,
966
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:46.710
but I never went to a prom.
967
00:37:47.640 --> 00:37:52.050
And she sent $100 when I graduated in '54.
968
00:37:52.050 --> 00:37:54.390
And that $100 was a down payment
969
00:37:54.390 --> 00:37:55.890
for me to go to Norfolk State.
970
00:37:57.750 --> 00:37:59.940
And when I went to Norfolk State,
971
00:37:59.940 --> 00:38:03.600
I was in the Noah Ryder's choir.
972
00:38:03.600 --> 00:38:06.330
I started the band, but I couldn't keep up band
973
00:38:06.330 --> 00:38:09.003
on a college level, so I majored in elementary ed.
974
00:38:11.070 --> 00:38:15.930
And we had a president named Dr. Lyman Beecher Brooks,
975
00:38:15.930 --> 00:38:20.313
and Dr. Brooks talked with parents to this extent.
976
00:38:21.240 --> 00:38:24.030
He fixed it so they could pay
977
00:38:24.030 --> 00:38:25.590
your tuition in increments.
978
00:38:25.590 --> 00:38:27.570
I mean, I'm not talking about hundreds of dollars.
979
00:38:27.570 --> 00:38:29.460
Like, tuition itself for the whole year
980
00:38:29.460 --> 00:38:32.490
was probably no more than $200 at that time.
981
00:38:32.490 --> 00:38:34.770
But that was a lot of money.
982
00:38:34.770 --> 00:38:39.630
And you could pay him $25 a month, or however it was,
983
00:38:39.630 --> 00:38:40.530
you could just pay
984
00:38:41.595 --> 00:38:44.367
in increments.
So he wanted the students-
985
00:38:44.367 --> 00:38:46.140
Oh, Dr. Brooks is noted
986
00:38:46.140 --> 00:38:48.330
for wanting his students to succeed.
987
00:38:48.330 --> 00:38:49.810
You had to
988
00:38:51.720 --> 00:38:54.450
reach the academic status that he wanted,
989
00:38:54.450 --> 00:38:56.280
but students could enter.
990
00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:57.990
Now I did not enter under this status.
991
00:38:57.990 --> 00:39:02.990
I entered, you know, through the regular admission,
992
00:39:03.060 --> 00:39:05.400
but there were students who probably were not,
993
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:06.840
you know, such good students,
994
00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:08.790
but they worked hard and they went to school
995
00:39:08.790 --> 00:39:10.560
and they were able to, you know, get the grades
996
00:39:10.560 --> 00:39:11.393
that they needed.
997
00:39:11.393 --> 00:39:13.920
And Dr. Brooks was noted for allowing that.
998
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:15.300
That was just one of the things known,
999
00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:17.100
at that time it was called Little State
1000
00:39:17.100 --> 00:39:19.893
because it was a division of Virginia State.
1001
00:39:20.790 --> 00:39:22.020
And it was really called
1002
00:39:22.020 --> 00:39:25.085
Norfolk Division of Virginia State College.
1003
00:39:25.085 --> 00:39:26.305
Okay.
1004
00:39:26.305 --> 00:39:29.877
So I went there from '54 to '56
1005
00:39:29.877 --> 00:39:34.800
and I got a two year certificate.
1006
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:35.940
Could you teach at that point?
1007
00:39:35.940 --> 00:39:36.840
No, no, no.
1008
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:38.490
Okay, at that time I had two options.
1009
00:39:38.490 --> 00:39:40.200
I had an aunt who lived in Baltimore,
1010
00:39:40.200 --> 00:39:43.530
and this brings a different side of my life.
1011
00:39:43.530 --> 00:39:45.123
When I finished Norfolk State,
1012
00:39:46.899 --> 00:39:48.960
they could not afford to send me to Virginia State,
1013
00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:51.060
that's where people would normally go.
1014
00:39:51.060 --> 00:39:53.790
And my aunt lived in Baltimore,
1015
00:39:53.790 --> 00:39:56.460
they had this college called Coppin State Teachers College,
1016
00:39:56.460 --> 00:39:58.980
and she knew that it was $25 a year tuition.
1017
00:39:58.980 --> 00:40:00.930
But the part she didn't know was (laughs) you had
1018
00:40:00.930 --> 00:40:02.700
to be a Maryland resident.
1019
00:40:02.700 --> 00:40:04.110
So when they got me in Coppin,
1020
00:40:04.110 --> 00:40:06.120
and it was not hard to do,
1021
00:40:06.120 --> 00:40:10.440
they had to make a way to pay the additional tuition.
1022
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:13.680
But I finished Coppin State Teachers College.
1023
00:40:13.680 --> 00:40:14.940
Compton?
Coppin.
1024
00:40:14.940 --> 00:40:17.820
C-O-P-P-I-N, Coppin.
1025
00:40:17.820 --> 00:40:19.560
At that time it was Coppin State Teachers College,
1026
00:40:19.560 --> 00:40:22.053
but it might be called university by now.
1027
00:40:23.010 --> 00:40:24.630
And they just trained teachers?
1028
00:40:24.630 --> 00:40:26.583
Right, it was a teacher's college.
1029
00:40:29.130 --> 00:40:31.650
What was Baltimore like as compared to Norfolk?
1030
00:40:31.650 --> 00:40:32.730
First of all,
1031
00:40:32.730 --> 00:40:34.980
it was culture shock because of the city life.
1032
00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:37.320
The rowhouses was something I had never been used to.
1033
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:40.920
But I got stuck right away into a church even stricter
1034
00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:42.390
than the one I had been accustomed to,
1035
00:40:42.390 --> 00:40:44.400
called the Church of God Elder Michaux,
1036
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:46.320
Lightfoot Solomon Michaux was the pastor.
1037
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:47.280
So there was no free,
1038
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:48.660
like, the freedom you think
1039
00:40:48.660 --> 00:40:50.738
you thought you were going to have,
1040
00:40:50.738 --> 00:40:52.650
there was no existence of that type freedom
1041
00:40:52.650 --> 00:40:55.140
because we went to church every night there.
1042
00:40:55.140 --> 00:40:57.483
But the other thing that I found out,
1043
00:40:58.560 --> 00:41:01.860
every course that I had had at Norfolk State,
1044
00:41:01.860 --> 00:41:04.800
I had to take an extra course at Coppin.
1045
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:07.080
And I don't know if this is a fact,
1046
00:41:07.080 --> 00:41:11.160
but the standards in Maryland were higher
1047
00:41:11.160 --> 00:41:12.960
than the standards in Virginia.
1048
00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:14.490
So did you have to repeat courses?
1049
00:41:14.490 --> 00:41:16.950
I had to repeat many courses.
1050
00:41:16.950 --> 00:41:18.900
And that was when I found out at that time
1051
00:41:18.900 --> 00:41:21.810
that the standards of education across the state,
1052
00:41:21.810 --> 00:41:24.406
Virginia rank 41st of the 48.
1053
00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:27.510
I found that out in Maryland.
1054
00:41:27.510 --> 00:41:30.600
And another thing I found out was
1055
00:41:30.600 --> 00:41:33.063
that they had better materials.
1056
00:41:33.900 --> 00:41:36.960
I'd like to say even in college, there was a shock.
1057
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:39.210
And actually it took me one extra year to finish.
1058
00:41:39.210 --> 00:41:41.460
At that time, it wasn't anything to brag about.
1059
00:41:41.460 --> 00:41:43.920
It was like, it was something (laughs) my mama
1060
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:45.690
would probably have a hard time dealing with,
1061
00:41:45.690 --> 00:41:46.560
but that's what it was.
1062
00:41:46.560 --> 00:41:48.347
But I made it.
1063
00:41:48.347 --> 00:41:51.483
Was it different segregation-wise up in Baltimore?
1064
00:41:52.650 --> 00:41:53.483
Ah, yes,
1065
00:41:53.483 --> 00:41:54.843
because for one thing,
1066
00:41:57.930 --> 00:42:01.380
I can't remember if there were White students at Coppin,
1067
00:42:01.380 --> 00:42:03.270
but I remember we had White instructors,
1068
00:42:03.270 --> 00:42:05.880
and I remember I had never had a White instructor
1069
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:06.750
at Norfolk State.
1070
00:42:06.750 --> 00:42:08.910
And my art teacher was White.
1071
00:42:08.910 --> 00:42:10.623
But the other thing was,
1072
00:42:13.590 --> 00:42:15.720
I can't remember if the bus,
1073
00:42:15.720 --> 00:42:19.890
this segregation situation didn't exist there anyway,
1074
00:42:19.890 --> 00:42:21.840
the way that it had been in Virginia,
1075
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:24.840
so you didn't notice the things there
1076
00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:25.920
that you noticed in Virginia.
1077
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:27.600
So they wouldn't have had the signs?
1078
00:42:27.600 --> 00:42:28.433
Oh, no!
1079
00:42:28.433 --> 00:42:30.810
I never noticed the signs or anything.
1080
00:42:30.810 --> 00:42:31.973
I need to turn this-