- And, Rebecca Tollefson, Reverend Rebecca Tollefson, we're back again. We were talking about your initial involvement in Re-imagining. 

- Well initially I was on the staff with the Minnesota staff of Churches with Family Hill. And, until there was the initial conversations around the table, that I was part of with Sally and Mary Jane Souter, and a few others there in terms of how might we, what might we do with the decades for solidarity with women from the world council of Churches. So in that process then I, got the position to move to (mumbles). So for me, most of our women's ministry staff, if not all, went to the Re-imagining conference. I think there were about 20 of us on national staff that went. So it wasn't a sense of do you want to go, I'm saying this for Marian Lumby, it was a sense that we are participating. We have given a significant amount of money from the Presbyterian Church to this event, and for me it was like coming round circles, you know. It was great to go back. 

- Rebecca, I would love to hear about what it was like serving on the Minnesota Council of Churches, as when this was being planned. What do you recall about how that evolved. What that process was like and how it evolved? 

- Well I was part time the director of the Commission on faith and order and I was serving part time at the Presbyterian Church in Stillwater. And so, I was working with Margaret J Thomas, as well, and I just remember, Sally and I shared a cubicle wall. (laughs) And they weren't all the way up to the ceiling, so you could hear what was going on, on the other side of the wall. And I think it was (coughs) excuse me, just the sense of a part of my responsibility to go, as faith and order, to go to these conversations and participate, and see what would be happening, and contribute and that type of thing. So that's what I remember. 

- Do you have any specific memories of your what you thought as this was developing the plan for the larger conference? 

- Oh I was excited and believed in it. I'm very ecumenical. So when we talked about the world community in a sense, that was very exciting to me. And some of the names like (speaks foreign language) and others, I had no clue as to who they were. So I was excited to learn, you know, and to be exposed if you will, to new thoughts and beliefs. 

- Yes. One other question before we move on. Unfortunately as you know Sally Hill has passed away. She was instrumental in this. Do you have any memories of her? She was so important to this story. 

- Oh yes. A bold, courageous woman. I would say. And very much, wanting to work outside the box, you know. At that time also, clergywomen, we were kind of, pigeon-holed if you will. And I remember a time in that Presbytery where woman up for Ordination, was just, what's the word I want, treated very shabbily on the floor, in terms of questions being asked of her. And it was just like excruciating. And we said never again will we let this happen to another woman. So I think there were those dynamics, as well as like, and sally, you know, was older and wiser than me, and I think she had opportunities because of her, well, just she had opportunities that helped her expand her own viewpoint. And so it was the sense of listening to her, and thinking and being challenged I would say. You know and Liz Heller, do you know Liz? 

- I don't, no. 

- Liz Heller was, we called her the the mother of the Clergywomen in the Presbyterian and I think she's still living. She was at Westminster Presbyterian Church there. And there's I think called Heller Commons, which is an art gallery or something. She was a collector of art, incredible art. But she was another person that, well, why not type of thing. (laughs) And I think Sally, Sally and Liz, I don't know if they were similar age or not, but Sally was just full of just "well, if we don't try, why not." What's going to happen? That's the thing. We were all excited I think. Just the sense of a women's conference, and on this deal. 

- This is great. I did want to go back to hear a little bit more, because I think it helps to set the context. Could you say a little bit more about what you meant when you said women were pigeonholed and treated shabbily? What would happen? 

- Well there were more questions asked of women candidates if we're approved on the floor Presbytery then we're cleared for ordination, in the Presbyterian Church, and so it was, I would say some disrespect. Questions asked of women that wouldn't have been asked of men. So that type of thing, and it's just like what?! 

- Like what kind of questions were you, would be asked? 

- Oh gosh, I don't remember. 

- That's fine. It's been a long time. (laughs) 

- It's been a long time, is right. 

- Yes, but that's an important, for the context. So you went to the '93 conference, and your mom did, and I'd just love to hear about your memories of that conference. 

- Oh, incredibly positive, uplifting, energizing. One woman who was at my round table, and we are still in contact with each other. 

- Really, and you met there? 

- Yep. I know it was an incredibly positive experience for my mom as well. Yeah. But I just remember, listening to these women from different points of view and different cultures and thinking oh my goodness this is incredible. And it was, you know the, the milk and honey, I loved it. It was you know women were doing theology instead of doing what men usually have done through the centuries, and to me it was like this is just empowering. It's helping my own self-esteem, how wonderful to be given this opportunity to hear from this breadth of theologians and then common people, sitting around the table like me, and forming friendships, and engaging in the exercises, and having conversations. It was powerful. Incredibly powerful. And to this day I say well, I'm an original re-imaginer. (laughs) I don't care what other people think. It was the best that's ever happened. 

- Are there any, you mentioned the milk and honey ritual, are there any other specific things that you recall that were powerful for you? 

- No, you know, I was going to pull out my re-imaging stuff for you, and I just didn't do it. 

- That's fine. 

- No, I just, yeah. 

- Obviously, the impact of it was huge. 

- Exactly. And positively, not negative. 

- Right. Well I think that probably brings us to the backlash, which I know you were aware of. First of all, did it affect you directly? 

- Yes. 

- In what way? 

- I was, I got hate mail. And all of us, national staff, got hate mail. And we started coming together once a week, to support each other. And I remember one time I came in and I was just, furious. And Eunice Posic, who'd also gone, I told her of my experience and she said, so what'd you do with the letter? And I said I tore it up into little shreds. And Eunice is older than me, and she said "Rebecca let me suggest something." Okay. "I've begun writing back to these people, finding something to affirm in what they're writing." 

- Wow. 

- So I did that. And it was helpful. Instead of just being torn apart. I mean the hate mail was hate. And we even got it from inside the building. From co-workers. 

- Really? 

- So, it was just very painful. It was ostracizing and there's still some people that I do not think of highly. Because of their narrow, I would say, narrow understanding, of what happened, and their fear of women doing their own theology. And I just don't have time for it. It was painful. It was very painful. And one of my dear, dear friends left the Presbyterian church because she was in the section of Washington State, and her other clergy were just incredibly nasty and vicious to her, and so she left the Church. And there were others who really suffered from it. I know one woman on my, women who played by the church committee, said she would never participate in anything on the national level with the Presbyterian Church again. Backlash was damaging in many, many people's lives. 

- You said it was hate mail. And some of it you may not want to repeat, and you may not remember the details, but what kind of charges or were in those letters. What were people saying? 

- Oh I think you know, generally it was the sense that you went to this conference and you should have, once there was something happening, or somebody speaking at xy and z, you should have gotten up and left the table. And you have no, you need to leave the national staff. You are a person that should not be serving in such a way. Things like that. Is what I remember. 

- And I am interested that you wrote back to people. What kind of things could you affirm in their letters? Do you recall what you would write back? 

- You know, maybe just off the top of my head, I would say I sought to affirm that it was a very important conference. (laughs) I mean I tried to use their words, and just say you know, it was a life-changing opportunity, and it did expand my own awareness. And I appreciate your concern for the Church and you know I didn't preach to them. It was a sense of trying to find something that was positive to say I appreciate your concern in writing, thank you. 

- Did you ever hear back again from any of the people you wrote to? 

- I don't think so. 

- As you well know, Maryann Lundy was forced to resign do you have any memories about that, or your reaction? 

- Oh yeah, and she and I are still very close. That was just, I think that was done out of fear. I think it was done out of embarrassment. I mean she did not undermine anybody. She is one of the most creative and committed people I know. And this was an incredible opportunity. I know for her (mumbles) it was joy-filled as well. And that was like, I'm trying to remember. I think many of us gathered around her at her home after that. 'Cause we were just shocked. And we were really pissed off. I mean, what?! I don't know, it was just, it was damaging for her, incredibly. Her soul suffered, and still is suffering in many, many ways. And she may have said that to you. 

- It sounds as if, and you can tell me if this is correct, it sounds as if you and the women's division really supported each other. 

- Yes. Yes. But it was also others in other departments that had gone. And you know, as I said, there were 20 of us. We supported each other. And that's what it's all about. I don't think men understand that. I know women we operate differently. And so this was just so threatening to the national staff, and to others I the Church that it seemed like the only way then to handle it, was to get rid of one of the pivotal persons. Which was Maryanne. 

- You know you've used the terms threatening and fear and embarrassment, could you, how do you account for this? What was the fear and the threat all about? 

- Women doing their own theology. We weren't doing western Patriarchal theology. We were doing something totally new and creative. We were outside the box. 

- Yeah. One other question that occurred to me, were you at the '94 General Assembly at all, or do you remember anything about it, the report, the votes, anything about that related to Re-imagining. 

- Yeah I'm trying to think that was in Wichita. And one of my college friends was a pastor, is a pastor and he was on, he was a delegate. And he and I talked a little bit, but he was totally against Re-imagining. So at that point I didn't have the skills to figure out you can have figure out how do I talk to you, even though you're crazy or stupid, you know. So it was, I think many of us were sitting there and listening and just going really? I mean it was hurtful again. The language. How people were talking. Their conclusions were totally off the wall. At that time we had the Presbyterian laymen. I don't know if that's been mentioned to you. It was the more conservative journals from the Presbyterian Church, and if any of us were interviewed it was, and we were put in, comments were put into this Presbyterian magazine, it was not recorded correctly. Even, I mean, it was like, I didn't say that. Why did they change my words? And the right, in the church, was very, very strong at that time and so it was to me appalling. It was sad, it was discouraging, and it's like gee, what do we do now type of thing. I mean it was like pointing the finger and saying you did that. You should never have done that. Don't do it again. 

- Now Rebecca, you stayed in the Church, even at the national level, how were you able to do that? 

- Well, I struggled. I really struggled. I think I'm so deeply ingrained. My father's a Presbyterian minister, my mother was a ruling elder in the Presbyterian church. Very strong and committed to the Presbyterian church. It was my DNA, my identity. And I think there were many of us, in talking to each other we tried to figure out, so do we stay in the church, do we leave? What do we do? And I think there was support. My mom, of course was supportive, my dad was supportive, I didn't have a mom and dad that differed on things like this. My dad's living has been always incredibly open, and my mom as well. So, they know I struggled, and I knew that my mom struggled too. We were all disgusted with the Church. So I think it was a sense, why I stayed was I had support. And I was able to work through things, where my friend in Washington State did not have the support around her, at all. 

- Wow, that's powerful. Rebecca how would you define Re-imagining? 

- Thinking outside the box. Not being held into something, but being allowed to fly free. To explore. You know, it wasn't, and you know this, it wasn't a sense of, Proselytizing you know that type of thing. It wasn't that at all. It was the sense of openness, of welcome, of extension, of building new. And I can't, Jerri Rowville out in California that I referred you to, I had to have my dose of meeting with strong women and I went up to Claremont and had some time with Mary Jeans and Andi Wilking, and Susan Craig and Vera Ryde, and others. And Jerri, and Jerri's really wanting, I send a lot of my Re-imagining stuff to her, 'cause she is wanting to reignite it as well. Yeah, on the west coast. And Anne Jayman, who is Presbyterian out there as well, I think Anne, I don't know if Anne's in the LA area, or San Francisco area. But I think there's willingness and interest to get something going. I think Mary Humes is probably, I don't know I think she's pulling out too because she's tired of all the crap. I mean you reach that point it's like okay, I'm done. So yeah. 

- Now did you reach that point. 

- Well my point was, I really don't care what you think anymore. (laughs) And it's then become, I've begun my 19th year here, with the Ohio Council of Churches. And I'm 64 years old, so I really don't care, you know, what others think about this. This is pivotal to me. If there's another Re-imagining conference, I'm going. I'm going to let all my friends know. There have been many people who didn't know it was happening who said if I had known, I would have been there. So there's a thirst, I think, for this kind of event, and for this kind of community to have again. 

- That's great. Well, so what aspects of Re-imagining were most significant and why? 

- The roundtable. My recollection it was the same group that we sat with throughout. 

- It was, yes. 

- And so we could form relationships, and we could come back from workshops and say okay this is what I heard, or you should have experienced this, you know we shared. We formed community around that table. And it was with people I had never met. And that was significant. I mean it reinforced, I would say, my commitment to getting people to have conversations where we're different and we don't know each other. And unless that's really set up it's very hard to do, I think. 

- Sounds like that would be important, oh, go ahead. 

- Yeah it would save space. I know it would save space. How do you establish that for conversation to take place. 

- Yes. Well it sounds like in your current work, in ecumenical affairs that that would be something important to what you're doing. 

- Exactly, exactly. 

- Did Re-imagining sort of help in some ways with that do you think? 

- Oh I'm sure it's undergirded a lot of my understanding of humanism in the Church today and I just believe that different Christian religions particularly, denominations, need to come together. I believe the ecumenical world, which I define as Christian, is crucial. We need to be intent on learning and being with each other. Other world religions are important as well, but we as Christians need to get our act together and it may not come until Jesus Christ comes again, you know type of thing. But in the meantime we chip away at that, and that's what I love doing, and the Aligned Council of Churches has stretched in width of denominations from African American traditions, to Greek Orthodox, to peace churches, to Roman Catholics, to mainline denominations. So it's just this incredibly rich, 18 denominations spread, and they don't know about each other. Anyway, and that's another whole story. But yeah, I think Re-imagining has just been a part of undergirding if you will, giving a foundation. I'm not really thinking Re-imagining, oh I learned this and I'm just trying to do that, it's there. It was one of the best things that ever happened, I think, in my life. 

- Wow. Wow. That's pretty powerful. 

- Well, I don't apologize for it. I just say, well, you know what, you missed out. And you know when somebody, I haven't had anybody you know for a long time say you were at that, but I'll say, and a lot of people don't even know about it, even now. 

- I think you're already kind of talking about this, but how did your involvement in Re-imagining change your perspective on feminist theology, and or the church? 

- Well, I think really for me, feminist theology was just kind of a piece of the whole puzzle, because there was (mumbles). I really learned more about those aspects and I didn't really have much to go on, with those before. And so I think it really changed my perspective that feminist theology is only one piece of women doing theology. There's other cultural aspects. So, you know a changed realizing yes, I'm feminist, I'm not a womanist if I'm not African American, and I'm not (mumbles) because I'm not Hispanic. So I have better and deeper appreciation of those aspects and realizing I'm just one small piece. 

- That's great. So looking back on it what specific contributions do you think Re-imagining made to Christian theology and liturgy? 

- I think huge. I think Re-imagining challenged traditional Christian theology that we've lived with in the Western World. I think it also challenged, maybe for those from international observance, it challenged their understandings of Western theology too. And our theology is so predominant, we say it's predominant, we say it's the only way that patriarchal, you know I'm just, I'm so, what's the word. I wish we weren't still living in a patriarchal society. You know for women not to have the same pay, for us to be suspect in our, Hillary Clinton, you know, well you know her period or something like this. It's like oh my gosh, please give me a break. (laughs) Yeah it's like men have no clue. I'm going off on that, but I think the theology I think Re-imagining pushed Christian theology to the edge where people had to deal with it, whether positive or negative, and I know when I'm trying to remember. I think, just trying to think. I think it was after that that another clergywoman and I started in Woolville. what did we call it, Women Weaving or something. But worship services, once a month, and we did it for maybe three years. But we used some different resources, working some blessings by Rosemary Mitchell and Gail Rashudie. And so it was just, it was empowering us to offer to others what we had experienced. 

- So this grew out of Re-imagining? 

- Yeah, yeah. 

- Did you use any of the Re-imagining materials do you recall? 

- I'm sure we did. You know I don't remember what, so, but I did know it was innovative, it was creative, it was soothing. It was what we needed. 

- Yeah. You know Rebecca, you'd be the person to ask this because you know how huge the backlash was, we've talked about it. Do you think that Re-imagining in the end had a positive effect on the Presbyterian church, or what would your evaluation be of that? 

- That's a really good question. I don't know. Probably not on the institution, because the institution couldn't deal with it. I think it was positive for many women and men, in ways that we didn't even think about. Because when we got that backlash, it was a sense of reinforcing who we are as women, and holding fast to that. But, I guess, that's a really hard questions. The institution wanted to just deal with it and then put it to bed, and never think about it again. And for many of us it just revved us up, here we come again. (laughs) Watch out. And if you don't join us, you'll be sorry. (laughs) 

- So in the end what do you think is the greatest legacy of the Re-imagining community? 

- Nurturing women to engage their creative powers in how we think about God and our relationship as the body of Christ, that are refreshing, and energizing, and affirming. 

- That is great. Finally, well two last questions, one is what do you think Re-imagining means today and by that I don't just mean the Re-imagining community, but what needs to be reimagined in Church today, in churches today? 

- Well I have to tell you an aside because the young editor of Presbyterians Today published an article last fall and was using the word Re-imagining. And having younger people reimagine something, and I wrote to him and I said, you need to know the legacy of this word. So I told him, and he had also gotten feedback from people inside 100 Witherspoon in Woolville National Headquarters about the word too, and I spoke with him in person in February I think it was, and he was so grateful, because I don't want anybody else to use it. I mean, it's like this was Re-imagining the Church and God. So Re-imagining, I mean today it still points me back to that conference and what's then to be done today. And I think we need to reimagine again. We're still in the same place we were in 1993. 

- Say some more about that. In what ways? 

- I just think the institutional church is still there, and because women aren't getting the same pay as men, even in Clergy, and there are a few more, women who are heads of staff. However, my observance is they are acting just like men. And that they come together and then don't afford themselves together with other clergywomen, who are in smaller churches or are associates or whatever. It's just a phenomenon I'm observing. And I can't think oh my god. 

- And I think I know your answer to this, but I'm going to ask it. What is your perception on the use of inclusive language and feminist theology in the institutional churches today? 

- Yes. (laughs) It has to be. 

- Do you think it is there? In churches today? 

- No, we've been going backwards. We've been going backwards in the church for over a decade. I see it in seminaries, and in Church. I think it's there in many ways (mumbles) languages, but God is still Father, and that's a huge, you know don't mess with my Father, you know. And I would never, never, where was I just, I have to look at my calendar to think of where I was the other day and I can't think of where it was. Maybe it was, no I don't know. Anyway, I don't pray to Father. I use other language. And I'm right now, the moderator of our Presbytery's Presbyterian women and we have a meeting, spring gathering, a week from Saturday, a week from tomorrow. And I have reprinted the national brochure from women's ministries on inclusive language. I think many people, it's just not in their repertoire anymore. So inclusive language is there. I've got my little Advocacy committee for women's concerns magnet on one of my cabinets here in my office, which is inclusive language. You know you take them apart and put them together type of thing. You know, it's just there. It's prominent, it's needed, and I don't apologize for it at all. 

- That's great. One last specific question, you probably know we're working on a Re-imagining website, and we're asking for ideas from people about what to include, who would benefit from it. How would they find out about it, just any suggestions you have about that website. 

- Well I think a little bit of the history would need to be there. And what's happening today? Where are things happening that are outside the box, following the Re-imagining guidelines, if you will. Liturgies, exploration groups. Bible study groups or study groups, you know. Book groups, that type of thing. What are books, you know, that type of thing. I know that, I'm trying to think, I think there was a recent piece that came out and I thought oh this would be good for the Re-imagining community. Of course I can't remember it, so I can't contribute it. (laughs) But I think there are things, lectures. You know, where are lectures happening, you know, across the United States. Because I think I know there are people who would plug in and say okay on the west coast in LA in November on 2016, this is happening. That type of thing. So it's a networking. I see it as a lot of networking and resourcing and providing, noting education events, you know that type of thing. And do you have a support. We started a support group here in Columbus too. When I moved here in '97, was there a conference in '98. 

- There was. 

- Okay, well one young clergywoman, we met there, and came back here, and then started a small group, but it didn't continue. It just kind of, it just didn't have the oomph to it. 

- I'm actually still in a Re-imagining small group. There's only a few that have survived, and I'm in one of them. It's lasted over 20 years, which is great. 

- I love it. I love it. 

- It's wonderful. Now this has been absolutely wonderful. Is there anything that we haven't discussed, that you would like to add Rebecca? 

- Well, I don't think so I mean you've heard loud and clear where I was and how I believed in this, and let's do it again. 

- Yes, yes. Wonderful. 

- I don't have strong feminist friends here in Columbus, at least I feel like I don't. So, where are the strong women today? Where are these women who are bold, who are courageous, who are putting things out there. And one thing I was just thinking of, I think in Re-imagining damaged the institution, because I think people have, women particularly, have fallen back and like now let's tread kind of lightly now, instead of just going for it. And I think in Presbyterian women, that organization. You know, people think oh Presbyterian women and (mumbles) so great now because I'm the moderator, it's like please. Well yeah, it's because I speak my mind. I think a little bit if not a lot out of the box. So I used a quote from Lamont Lobby who was a Nobel peace prize winner from (mumbles) I think, about when I was installed a year ago this month, about treading, something about treading. Don't just tiptoe, but make an imprint. I'm doing a devotion for our gathering next weekend and I want to bring that back, and say what is it that we've done in the last year, where we've made an imprint instead of just tiptoeing? 

- Wow, that's a great question. 

- It's just, I love that quote. It's really helped me. 

- I do want to follow up on one thing you just said because it's been a question I'm trying to figure out, and that is, do you think in the end, the backlash against Re-imagining actually set feminist theology and inclusive language back in the church, in the institutional church? 

- It may be. I don't know why there was that sliders bin, you know going back to people not. You know, that's a good question. Let me say, that I think the '70s and the '80s were strong decades for strong women, because when In went to seminary some women a year ahead of me and even two years ahead of me, I just felt in admiration of, and still admire them. They're women who are strong, who are pivotal in their leadership. I don't think we've developed those kinds of women since. Maybe that's why the inclusive language is not as, has not happened or continued in the strong vein as it used to. Because I'm seeing, I don't know where my feminist theologian friends here are in Columbus. I have to go to California to find them. Or, you know Peg Chamberlain. 

- Yes. 

- Okay, well Peg and I have known each other since I served on Minnesota Council of Churches in '87. And so when she and I are together at a State Ecumenical Execs retreat, she and I can sit and talk feminist theology. But I think there just aren't the leaders, like there were. And maybe some of that is because we got burned out, and we got hurt, and we said, you know I'm done with this. I don't need to be involved in this any more. I've done what I can. So I think, I think that's maybe, there's some credence to that. 

- Well thank you so much. I'm going to turn the recording off now, if that's okay? 

- Okay. 

- Good, I'm just turning the recording off.