WEBVTT
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And, Rebecca Tollefson, Reverend Rebecca Tollefson,
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we're back again.
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We were talking about your initial involvement
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in Re-imagining.
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Well initially I was on the staff with the
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Minnesota staff of Churches with Family Hill.
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And, until there was the initial conversations
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around the table, that I was part of with Sally
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and Mary Jane Souter,
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and a few others there
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in terms of how might we, what might we do with the decades
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for solidarity with women from the world council
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of Churches.
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So in that process then I, got the position to
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move to (mumbles).
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So for me, most of our women's ministry staff,
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if not all, went to the Re-imagining conference.
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I think there were about 20 of us on national staff
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that went.
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So it wasn't a sense of do you want to go,
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I'm saying this for Marian Lumby, it was a sense that we
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are participating.
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We have given a significant amount of money
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from the Presbyterian Church to this event,
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and for me it was like coming round circles, you know.
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It was great to go back.
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Rebecca, I would love to hear about what it was like
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serving on the Minnesota Council of Churches,
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as when this was being planned.
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What do you recall about how that evolved.
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What that process was like and how it evolved?
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Well I was part time the director of the Commission
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on faith and order and I was serving part time
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at the Presbyterian Church in Stillwater.
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And so, I was working with Margaret J Thomas,
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as well, and I just remember,
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Sally and I shared a cubicle wall.
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(laughs)
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And they weren't all the way up to the ceiling,
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so you could hear what was going on,
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on the other side of the wall.
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And I think it was (coughs) excuse me,
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just the sense of a part of my responsibility
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to go, as faith and order, to go to these
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conversations and participate, and see what
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would be happening, and contribute and that type of thing.
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So that's what I remember.
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Do you have any specific memories of your what you thought
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as this was developing the plan for the larger conference?
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Oh I was excited and believed in it.
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I'm very ecumenical.
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So when we talked about the world community in a sense,
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that was very exciting to me.
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And some of the names like (speaks foreign language)
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and others, I had no clue as to who they were.
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So I was excited to learn, you know, and to be exposed
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if you will, to new thoughts and beliefs.
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Yes.
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One other question before we move on.
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Unfortunately as you know Sally Hill has passed away.
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She was instrumental in this.
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Do you have any memories of her?
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She was so important to this story.
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Oh yes.
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A bold, courageous woman.
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I would say.
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And very much,
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wanting to work outside the box, you know.
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At that time also, clergywomen, we were kind of,
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pigeon-holed if you will.
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And I remember a time in that Presbytery where woman
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up for Ordination, was just, what's the word I want,
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treated very shabbily on the floor,
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in terms of questions being asked of her.
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And it was just like excruciating.
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And we said never again will we let this
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happen to another woman.
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So I think there were those dynamics,
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as well as like, and sally, you know,
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was older and wiser than me, and I think she had
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opportunities because of her, well,
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just she had opportunities
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that helped her expand her own viewpoint.
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And so it was the sense of listening to her,
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and thinking and being challenged I would say.
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You know and Liz Heller, do you know Liz?
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I don't, no.
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Liz Heller was, we called her the
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the mother of the Clergywomen in the Presbyterian
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and I think she's still living.
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She was at Westminster Presbyterian Church there.
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And there's I think called Heller Commons,
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which is an art gallery or something.
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She was a collector of art, incredible art.
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But she was another person that,
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well, why not type of thing.
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(laughs)
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And I think Sally,
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Sally and Liz, I don't know if they were similar age
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or not, but Sally was just full of just
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"well, if we don't try, why not."
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What's going to happen?
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That's the thing.
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We were all excited I think.
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Just the sense of a women's conference,
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and on this deal.
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This is great.
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I did want to go back to hear a little bit more,
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because I think it helps to set the context.
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Could you say a little bit more about what you meant
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when you said women were pigeonholed and treated shabbily?
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What would happen?
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Well there were more questions asked
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of women candidates if we're approved
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on the floor Presbytery
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then we're cleared for ordination,
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in the Presbyterian Church, and so it was,
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I would say some disrespect.
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Questions asked of women that wouldn't
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have been asked of men.
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So that type of thing, and it's just like what?!
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Like what kind of questions were you,
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would be asked?
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Oh gosh, I don't remember.
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That's fine.
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It's been a long time.
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(laughs)
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It's been a long time, is right.
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Yes, but that's an important, for the context.
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So you went to the '93 conference, and your mom did,
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and I'd just love to hear about
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your memories of that conference.
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Oh, incredibly positive, uplifting,
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energizing.
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One woman who was at my round table, and we are
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still in contact with each other.
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Really, and you met there?
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Yep.
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I know it was an incredibly positive experience
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for my mom as well.
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Yeah.
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But I just remember, listening to these
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women from different points of view and different cultures
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and thinking oh my goodness this is incredible.
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And it was, you know the,
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the milk and honey,
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I loved it.
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It was you know women were doing theology instead
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of doing what men usually have done through the centuries,
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and to me it was like this is just empowering.
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It's helping my own self-esteem,
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how wonderful to be given this opportunity
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to hear from this breadth of theologians
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and then common people, sitting around the table
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like me, and forming friendships,
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and engaging in the exercises, and having
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conversations.
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It was powerful.
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Incredibly powerful.
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And to this day I say well, I'm an original
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re-imaginer.
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(laughs)
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I don't care what other people think.
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It was the best that's ever happened.
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Are there any, you mentioned the milk and honey ritual,
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are there any other specific things that you recall
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that were powerful for you?
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No, you know, I was going to pull out
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my re-imaging stuff for you,
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and I just didn't do it.
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That's fine.
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No, I just, yeah.
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Obviously, the impact of it was huge.
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Exactly.
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And positively, not negative.
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Right.
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Well I think that probably brings us to the backlash,
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which I know you were aware of.
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First of all, did it affect you directly?
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Yes.
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In what way?
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I was, I got hate mail.
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And all of us, national staff, got hate mail.
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And we started coming together once a week,
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to support each other.
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And I remember one time I came in and I was just,
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furious.
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And Eunice Posic, who'd also gone,
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I told her of my experience and she said,
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so what'd you do with the letter?
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And I said I tore it up into little shreds.
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And Eunice is older than me, and she said
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"Rebecca let me suggest something."
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Okay.
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"I've begun writing back to these people,
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finding something to affirm in what they're writing."
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Wow.
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So I did that.
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And it was helpful.
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Instead of just being torn apart.
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I mean the hate mail was hate.
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And we even got it from inside the building.
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From co-workers.
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Really?
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So, it was just very painful.
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It was ostracizing and there's still
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some people that I do not think of highly.
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Because of their narrow,
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I would say, narrow understanding,
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of what happened, and their fear of women doing their
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own theology.
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And I just don't have time for it.
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It was painful.
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It was very painful.
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And one of my dear, dear friends
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left the Presbyterian church because she was in
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the section of Washington State,
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and her other clergy were just
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incredibly nasty and vicious to her,
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and so she left the Church.
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And there were others who really suffered from it.
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I know one woman on my, women who
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played by the church committee,
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said she would never participate
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in anything on the national level
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with the Presbyterian Church again.
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Backlash was damaging in many, many people's lives.
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You said it was hate mail.
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And some of it you may not want to repeat,
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and you may not remember the details,
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but what kind of charges or were in those letters.
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What were people saying?
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Oh I think you know, generally it was the sense
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that you went to this conference and you should have,
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once there was something happening, or somebody
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speaking at xy and z, you should have gotten
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up and left the table.
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And you have no, you need to leave the national staff.
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You are a person that should not be serving in such a way.
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Things like that.
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Is what I remember.
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And I am interested that you wrote back to people.
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What kind of things could you affirm in their letters?
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Do you recall what you would write back?
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You know, maybe just off the top of my head,
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I would say I sought to affirm that it was
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a very important conference.
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(laughs)
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I mean I tried to use their words,
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and just say you know, it was a life-changing
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opportunity, and it did expand my own awareness.
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And I appreciate your concern for the Church
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and you know I didn't preach to them.
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It was a sense of trying to find something
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that was positive to say I appreciate
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your concern in writing, thank you.
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Did you ever hear back again
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from any of the people you wrote to?
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I don't think so.
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As you well know, Maryann Lundy was forced to resign
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do you have any memories about that, or your reaction?
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Oh yeah,
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and she and I are still very close.
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That was just,
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I think that was done out of fear.
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I think it was done out of embarrassment.
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I mean she did not undermine anybody.
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She is one of the most creative and committed people
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I know.
270
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And this was an incredible opportunity.
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I know for her (mumbles) it was joy-filled
272
00:15:12.574 --> 00:15:13.407
as well.
273
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And that was like, I'm trying to remember.
274
00:15:21.809 --> 00:15:23.934
I think many of us gathered around her
275
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at her home after that.
276
00:15:27.038 --> 00:15:28.222
'Cause we were just shocked.
277
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And we were really pissed off.
278
00:15:33.586 --> 00:15:34.753
I mean, what?!
279
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I don't know, it was just,
280
00:15:44.751 --> 00:15:47.460
it was damaging for her, incredibly.
281
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Her soul suffered, and still is suffering
282
00:15:51.057 --> 00:15:52.162
in many, many ways.
283
00:15:52.162 --> 00:15:54.995
And she may have said that to you.
284
00:15:57.393 --> 00:16:00.216
It sounds as if, and you can tell me if this is correct,
285
00:16:00.216 --> 00:16:02.628
it sounds as if you and the women's division
286
00:16:02.628 --> 00:16:05.203
really supported each other.
287
00:16:05.203 --> 00:16:06.141
Yes.
288
00:16:06.141 --> 00:16:06.974
Yes.
289
00:16:06.974 --> 00:16:11.141
But it was also others in other departments that had gone.
290
00:16:12.154 --> 00:16:15.795
And you know, as I said, there were 20 of us.
291
00:16:15.795 --> 00:16:17.795
We supported each other.
292
00:16:20.900 --> 00:16:23.567
And that's what it's all about.
293
00:16:27.851 --> 00:16:29.524
I don't think men understand that.
294
00:16:29.524 --> 00:16:32.524
I know women we operate differently.
295
00:16:33.566 --> 00:16:36.010
And so this was just so threatening
296
00:16:36.010 --> 00:16:40.093
to the national staff, and to others I the Church
297
00:16:44.629 --> 00:16:47.524
that it seemed like the only way then to handle it,
298
00:16:47.524 --> 00:16:50.873
was to get rid of one of the pivotal persons.
299
00:16:50.873 --> 00:16:52.456
Which was Maryanne.
300
00:16:54.831 --> 00:16:56.511
You know you've used the terms threatening
301
00:16:56.511 --> 00:16:58.148
and fear and embarrassment, could you,
302
00:16:58.148 --> 00:17:00.116
how do you account for this?
303
00:17:00.116 --> 00:17:03.868
What was the fear and the threat all about?
304
00:17:03.868 --> 00:17:07.219
Women doing their own theology.
305
00:17:07.219 --> 00:17:11.832
We weren't doing western Patriarchal theology.
306
00:17:11.832 --> 00:17:16.311
We were doing something totally new and creative.
307
00:17:16.311 --> 00:17:18.311
We were outside the box.
308
00:17:20.013 --> 00:17:21.526
Yeah.
309
00:17:21.526 --> 00:17:23.643
One other question that occurred to me,
310
00:17:23.643 --> 00:17:27.283
were you at the '94 General Assembly at all,
311
00:17:27.283 --> 00:17:29.039
or do you remember anything about it,
312
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:31.859
the report, the votes, anything about that
313
00:17:31.859 --> 00:17:32.715
related to Re-imagining.
314
00:17:32.715 --> 00:17:36.632
Yeah I'm trying to think that was in Wichita.
315
00:17:39.372 --> 00:17:42.955
And one of my college friends was a pastor,
316
00:17:45.856 --> 00:17:49.606
is a pastor and he was on, he was a delegate.
317
00:17:53.080 --> 00:17:55.728
And he and I talked a little bit,
318
00:17:55.728 --> 00:17:59.061
but he was totally against Re-imagining.
319
00:17:59.898 --> 00:18:01.738
So at that point I didn't have the skills
320
00:18:01.738 --> 00:18:04.639
to figure out you can have figure out how do I talk
321
00:18:04.639 --> 00:18:08.692
to you, even though you're crazy or stupid, you know.
322
00:18:08.692 --> 00:18:12.249
So it was, I think many of us were sitting there
323
00:18:12.249 --> 00:18:15.249
and listening and just going really?
324
00:18:16.129 --> 00:18:18.377
I mean it was hurtful again.
325
00:18:18.377 --> 00:18:19.460
The language.
326
00:18:21.719 --> 00:18:23.719
How people were talking.
327
00:18:24.943 --> 00:18:28.820
Their conclusions were totally off the wall.
328
00:18:28.820 --> 00:18:31.396
At that time we had the Presbyterian laymen.
329
00:18:31.396 --> 00:18:33.643
I don't know if that's been mentioned to you.
330
00:18:33.643 --> 00:18:37.476
It was the more conservative journals from the
331
00:18:40.910 --> 00:18:45.077
Presbyterian Church, and if any of us were interviewed
332
00:18:45.931 --> 00:18:49.731
it was, and we were put in, comments were put
333
00:18:49.731 --> 00:18:53.413
into this Presbyterian magazine, it was
334
00:18:53.413 --> 00:18:55.330
not recorded correctly.
335
00:18:57.215 --> 00:18:58.606
Even, I mean, it was like,
336
00:18:58.606 --> 00:19:00.809
I didn't say that.
337
00:19:00.809 --> 00:19:03.226
Why did they change my words?
338
00:19:08.257 --> 00:19:12.424
And the right, in the church, was very, very strong
339
00:19:15.086 --> 00:19:18.669
at that time and so it was to me appalling.
340
00:19:21.988 --> 00:19:24.655
It was sad, it was discouraging,
341
00:19:27.902 --> 00:19:31.658
and it's like gee, what do we do now type of thing.
342
00:19:31.658 --> 00:19:34.761
I mean it was like pointing the finger and saying
343
00:19:34.761 --> 00:19:35.844
you did that.
344
00:19:37.993 --> 00:19:40.238
You should never have done that.
345
00:19:40.238 --> 00:19:41.738
Don't do it again.
346
00:19:45.260 --> 00:19:47.748
Now Rebecca, you stayed in the Church,
347
00:19:47.748 --> 00:19:49.833
even at the national level,
348
00:19:49.833 --> 00:19:52.533
how were you able to do that?
349
00:19:52.533 --> 00:19:54.200
Well, I struggled.
350
00:19:56.011 --> 00:19:57.594
I really struggled.
351
00:19:59.817 --> 00:20:00.650
I think I'm so deeply ingrained.
352
00:20:00.650 --> 00:20:03.005
My father's a Presbyterian minister,
353
00:20:03.005 --> 00:20:05.784
my mother was a ruling elder in the Presbyterian church.
354
00:20:05.784 --> 00:20:10.638
Very strong and committed to the Presbyterian church.
355
00:20:10.638 --> 00:20:12.888
It was my DNA, my identity.
356
00:20:16.261 --> 00:20:18.957
And I think there were many of us,
357
00:20:18.957 --> 00:20:22.957
in talking to each other we tried to figure out,
358
00:20:24.352 --> 00:20:25.776
so do we stay in the church,
359
00:20:25.776 --> 00:20:27.166
do we leave?
360
00:20:27.166 --> 00:20:28.333
What do we do?
361
00:20:31.335 --> 00:20:32.765
And I think there was support.
362
00:20:32.765 --> 00:20:34.740
My mom, of course was supportive,
363
00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:36.573
my dad was supportive,
364
00:20:38.885 --> 00:20:41.080
I didn't have a mom and dad
365
00:20:41.080 --> 00:20:44.573
that differed on things like this.
366
00:20:44.573 --> 00:20:46.084
My dad's living has been always
367
00:20:46.084 --> 00:20:49.084
incredibly open, and my mom as well.
368
00:20:52.334 --> 00:20:55.417
So, they know I struggled, and I knew
369
00:20:56.575 --> 00:20:58.982
that my mom struggled too.
370
00:20:58.982 --> 00:21:02.455
We were all disgusted with the Church.
371
00:21:02.455 --> 00:21:03.516
So I think it was a sense,
372
00:21:03.516 --> 00:21:06.099
why I stayed was I had support.
373
00:21:07.361 --> 00:21:09.324
And I was able to work through things,
374
00:21:09.324 --> 00:21:12.350
where my friend in Washington State did not have
375
00:21:12.350 --> 00:21:14.933
the support around her, at all.
376
00:21:17.895 --> 00:21:20.396
Wow, that's powerful.
377
00:21:20.396 --> 00:21:23.896
Rebecca how would you define Re-imagining?
378
00:21:25.262 --> 00:21:27.834
Thinking outside the box.
379
00:21:27.834 --> 00:21:30.334
Not being held into something,
380
00:21:33.509 --> 00:21:36.009
but being allowed to fly free.
381
00:21:39.524 --> 00:21:40.441
To explore.
382
00:21:43.827 --> 00:21:47.376
You know, it wasn't, and you know this,
383
00:21:47.376 --> 00:21:49.126
it wasn't a sense of,
384
00:21:54.114 --> 00:21:57.343
Proselytizing you know that type of thing.
385
00:21:57.343 --> 00:21:58.403
It wasn't that at all.
386
00:21:58.403 --> 00:22:01.820
It was the sense of openness, of welcome,
387
00:22:03.343 --> 00:22:05.843
of extension, of building new.
388
00:22:10.812 --> 00:22:13.513
And I can't, Jerri Rowville out in California
389
00:22:13.513 --> 00:22:16.651
that I referred you to, I had to have my dose
390
00:22:16.651 --> 00:22:19.223
of meeting with strong women and I went up to
391
00:22:19.223 --> 00:22:21.102
Claremont and had some time with
392
00:22:21.102 --> 00:22:24.092
Mary Jeans and Andi Wilking,
393
00:22:24.092 --> 00:22:25.686
and Susan Craig and Vera Ryde,
394
00:22:25.686 --> 00:22:26.603
and others.
395
00:22:30.259 --> 00:22:33.426
And Jerri, and Jerri's really wanting,
396
00:22:35.648 --> 00:22:38.879
I send a lot of my Re-imagining stuff to her,
397
00:22:38.879 --> 00:22:43.171
'cause she is wanting to reignite it as well.
398
00:22:43.171 --> 00:22:45.171
Yeah, on the west coast.
399
00:22:47.861 --> 00:22:50.923
And Anne Jayman, who is Presbyterian out there
400
00:22:50.923 --> 00:22:53.659
as well, I think Anne, I don't know if Anne's
401
00:22:53.659 --> 00:22:56.826
in the LA area, or San Francisco area.
402
00:22:57.788 --> 00:23:01.869
But I think there's willingness and interest
403
00:23:01.869 --> 00:23:03.341
to get something going.
404
00:23:03.341 --> 00:23:05.924
I think Mary Humes is probably,
405
00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:10.486
I don't know I think she's pulling out too
406
00:23:10.486 --> 00:23:14.204
because she's tired of all the crap.
407
00:23:14.204 --> 00:23:18.371
I mean you reach that point it's like okay, I'm done.
408
00:23:19.842 --> 00:23:21.237
So yeah.
409
00:23:21.237 --> 00:23:23.820
Now did you reach that point.
410
00:23:25.205 --> 00:23:27.159
Well my point was, I really don't care
411
00:23:27.159 --> 00:23:29.447
what you think anymore.
412
00:23:29.447 --> 00:23:30.387
(laughs)
413
00:23:30.387 --> 00:23:34.554
And it's then become, I've begun my 19th year here,
414
00:23:36.763 --> 00:23:39.824
with the Ohio Council of Churches.
415
00:23:39.824 --> 00:23:43.574
And I'm 64 years old, so I really don't care,
416
00:23:45.143 --> 00:23:48.046
you know, what others think about this.
417
00:23:48.046 --> 00:23:49.925
This is pivotal to me.
418
00:23:49.925 --> 00:23:51.684
If there's another Re-imagining conference,
419
00:23:51.684 --> 00:23:52.517
I'm going.
420
00:23:53.523 --> 00:23:55.481
I'm going to let all my friends know.
421
00:23:55.481 --> 00:23:58.871
There have been many people who didn't know
422
00:23:58.871 --> 00:24:00.588
it was happening who said if I had known,
423
00:24:00.588 --> 00:24:03.168
I would have been there.
424
00:24:03.168 --> 00:24:07.335
So there's a thirst, I think, for this kind of event,
425
00:24:09.729 --> 00:24:13.479
and for this kind of community to have again.
426
00:24:14.495 --> 00:24:15.845
That's great.
427
00:24:15.845 --> 00:24:19.034
Well, so what aspects of Re-imagining
428
00:24:19.034 --> 00:24:21.534
were most significant and why?
429
00:24:22.958 --> 00:24:24.375
The roundtable.
430
00:24:28.355 --> 00:24:31.504
My recollection it was the same group that we sat with
431
00:24:31.504 --> 00:24:32.337
throughout.
432
00:24:32.337 --> 00:24:33.874
It was, yes.
433
00:24:33.874 --> 00:24:36.529
And so we could form relationships,
434
00:24:36.529 --> 00:24:39.671
and we could come back from workshops and say
435
00:24:39.671 --> 00:24:41.795
okay this is what I heard, or you should have
436
00:24:41.795 --> 00:24:44.878
experienced this, you know we shared.
437
00:24:46.865 --> 00:24:50.624
We formed community around that table.
438
00:24:50.624 --> 00:24:53.897
And it was with people I had never met.
439
00:24:53.897 --> 00:24:55.980
And that was significant.
440
00:24:58.056 --> 00:25:00.889
I mean it reinforced, I would say,
441
00:25:02.987 --> 00:25:07.154
my commitment to getting people to have conversations
442
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:15.654
where we're different and we don't know each other.
443
00:25:15.654 --> 00:25:19.249
And unless that's really set up it's very hard to do,
444
00:25:19.249 --> 00:25:20.475
I think.
445
00:25:20.475 --> 00:25:22.883
Sounds like that would be important, oh, go ahead.
446
00:25:22.883 --> 00:25:24.798
Yeah it would save space.
447
00:25:24.798 --> 00:25:27.048
I know it would save space.
448
00:25:27.904 --> 00:25:31.213
How do you establish that for conversation
449
00:25:31.213 --> 00:25:32.681
to take place.
450
00:25:32.681 --> 00:25:34.156
Yes.
451
00:25:34.156 --> 00:25:35.670
Well it sounds like in your current work,
452
00:25:35.670 --> 00:25:37.954
in ecumenical affairs that that would be something
453
00:25:37.954 --> 00:25:40.163
important to what you're doing.
454
00:25:40.163 --> 00:25:41.746
Exactly, exactly.
455
00:25:44.368 --> 00:25:46.939
Did Re-imagining sort of help in some ways
456
00:25:46.939 --> 00:25:49.139
with that do you think?
457
00:25:49.139 --> 00:25:51.798
Oh I'm sure it's undergirded a lot of my
458
00:25:51.798 --> 00:25:55.713
understanding of humanism in the Church today
459
00:25:55.713 --> 00:25:59.880
and I just believe that different Christian religions
460
00:26:04.043 --> 00:26:08.619
particularly, denominations, need to come together.
461
00:26:08.619 --> 00:26:11.023
I believe the ecumenical world,
462
00:26:11.023 --> 00:26:13.311
which I define as Christian,
463
00:26:13.311 --> 00:26:14.905
is crucial.
464
00:26:14.905 --> 00:26:19.476
We need to be intent on learning and being with each other.
465
00:26:19.476 --> 00:26:23.489
Other world religions are important as well,
466
00:26:23.489 --> 00:26:27.572
but we as Christians need to get our act together
467
00:26:28.604 --> 00:26:30.851
and it may not come until Jesus Christ comes again,
468
00:26:30.851 --> 00:26:32.445
you know type of thing.
469
00:26:32.445 --> 00:26:36.566
But in the meantime we chip away at that,
470
00:26:36.566 --> 00:26:38.983
and that's what I love doing,
471
00:26:39.828 --> 00:26:42.745
and the Aligned Council of Churches
472
00:26:43.708 --> 00:26:46.649
has stretched in width of denominations
473
00:26:46.649 --> 00:26:49.470
from African American traditions, to Greek Orthodox,
474
00:26:49.470 --> 00:26:53.723
to peace churches, to Roman Catholics, to mainline
475
00:26:53.723 --> 00:26:54.990
denominations.
476
00:26:54.990 --> 00:26:59.157
So it's just this incredibly rich, 18 denominations
477
00:27:01.818 --> 00:27:05.703
spread, and they don't know about each other.
478
00:27:05.703 --> 00:27:09.006
Anyway, and that's another whole story.
479
00:27:09.006 --> 00:27:13.173
But yeah, I think Re-imagining has just been a part of
480
00:27:15.827 --> 00:27:18.318
undergirding if you will,
481
00:27:18.318 --> 00:27:20.201
giving a foundation.
482
00:27:20.201 --> 00:27:22.976
I'm not really thinking Re-imagining,
483
00:27:22.976 --> 00:27:25.468
oh I learned this and I'm just trying to do that,
484
00:27:25.468 --> 00:27:26.385
it's there.
485
00:27:27.271 --> 00:27:31.354
It was one of the best things that ever happened,
486
00:27:33.392 --> 00:27:35.024
I think, in my life.
487
00:27:35.024 --> 00:27:35.857
Wow.
488
00:27:36.703 --> 00:27:37.536
Wow.
489
00:27:38.828 --> 00:27:40.745
That's pretty powerful.
490
00:27:42.376 --> 00:27:45.480
Well, I don't apologize for it.
491
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:48.009
I just say, well, you know what,
492
00:27:48.009 --> 00:27:49.074
you missed out.
493
00:27:49.074 --> 00:27:53.157
And you know when somebody, I haven't had anybody
494
00:27:54.704 --> 00:27:58.537
you know for a long time say you were at that,
495
00:28:01.242 --> 00:28:05.665
but I'll say, and a lot of people don't even
496
00:28:05.665 --> 00:28:07.665
know about it, even now.
497
00:28:12.982 --> 00:28:14.700
I think you're already kind of talking about this,
498
00:28:14.700 --> 00:28:16.377
but how did your involvement in Re-imagining
499
00:28:16.377 --> 00:28:20.058
change your perspective on feminist theology,
500
00:28:20.058 --> 00:28:21.558
and or the church?
501
00:28:22.511 --> 00:28:25.701
Well, I think really for me,
502
00:28:25.701 --> 00:28:29.179
feminist theology was just kind of a
503
00:28:29.179 --> 00:28:31.178
piece of the whole puzzle,
504
00:28:31.178 --> 00:28:35.635
because there was (mumbles).
505
00:28:35.635 --> 00:28:39.052
I really learned more about those aspects
506
00:28:42.616 --> 00:28:46.057
and I didn't really have much to go on,
507
00:28:46.057 --> 00:28:47.851
with those before.
508
00:28:47.851 --> 00:28:52.014
And so I think it really changed my perspective
509
00:28:52.014 --> 00:28:55.347
that feminist theology is only one piece
510
00:28:57.205 --> 00:28:59.205
of women doing theology.
511
00:29:01.006 --> 00:29:03.589
There's other cultural aspects.
512
00:29:07.091 --> 00:29:10.278
So, you know a changed realizing yes,
513
00:29:10.278 --> 00:29:13.304
I'm feminist, I'm not a womanist if I'm not
514
00:29:13.304 --> 00:29:16.040
African American, and I'm not (mumbles)
515
00:29:16.040 --> 00:29:17.874
because I'm not Hispanic.
516
00:29:17.874 --> 00:29:22.128
So I have better and deeper appreciation of those aspects
517
00:29:22.128 --> 00:29:25.378
and realizing I'm just one small piece.
518
00:29:27.237 --> 00:29:28.260
That's great.
519
00:29:28.260 --> 00:29:31.533
So looking back on it what specific contributions
520
00:29:31.533 --> 00:29:34.232
do you think Re-imagining made to Christian theology
521
00:29:34.232 --> 00:29:35.232
and liturgy?
522
00:29:37.009 --> 00:29:38.970
I think huge.
523
00:29:38.970 --> 00:29:42.553
I think Re-imagining challenged traditional
524
00:29:44.104 --> 00:29:46.846
Christian theology that we've lived with in
525
00:29:46.846 --> 00:29:48.346
the Western World.
526
00:29:49.422 --> 00:29:51.508
I think it also challenged,
527
00:29:51.508 --> 00:29:55.341
maybe for those from international observance,
528
00:29:56.945 --> 00:30:00.218
it challenged their understandings
529
00:30:00.218 --> 00:30:02.218
of Western theology too.
530
00:30:04.260 --> 00:30:06.141
And our theology is so predominant,
531
00:30:06.141 --> 00:30:08.231
we say it's predominant,
532
00:30:08.231 --> 00:30:11.796
we say it's the only way that patriarchal,
533
00:30:11.796 --> 00:30:15.379
you know I'm just, I'm so, what's the word.
534
00:30:19.667 --> 00:30:23.743
I wish we weren't still living in a patriarchal society.
535
00:30:23.743 --> 00:30:27.829
You know for women not to have the same pay,
536
00:30:27.829 --> 00:30:30.162
for us to be suspect in our,
537
00:30:31.011 --> 00:30:33.750
Hillary Clinton, you know, well you know
538
00:30:33.750 --> 00:30:35.872
her period or something like this.
539
00:30:35.872 --> 00:30:37.389
It's like oh my gosh,
540
00:30:37.389 --> 00:30:39.057
please give me a break.
541
00:30:39.057 --> 00:30:40.767
(laughs)
542
00:30:40.767 --> 00:30:43.013
Yeah it's like men have no clue.
543
00:30:43.013 --> 00:30:46.930
I'm going off on that, but I think the theology
544
00:30:52.981 --> 00:30:56.324
I think Re-imagining pushed Christian theology
545
00:30:56.324 --> 00:31:00.074
to the edge where people had to deal with it,
546
00:31:03.676 --> 00:31:06.093
whether positive or negative,
547
00:31:08.367 --> 00:31:12.172
and I know when I'm trying to remember.
548
00:31:12.172 --> 00:31:14.672
I think, just trying to think.
549
00:31:16.054 --> 00:31:19.120
I think it was after that that another clergywoman
550
00:31:19.120 --> 00:31:21.370
and I started in Woolville.
551
00:31:23.563 --> 00:31:27.563
what did we call it, Women Weaving or something.
552
00:31:28.943 --> 00:31:31.860
But worship services, once a month,
553
00:31:34.862 --> 00:31:37.438
and we did it for maybe three years.
554
00:31:37.438 --> 00:31:40.521
But we used some different resources,
555
00:31:44.674 --> 00:31:47.454
working some blessings by Rosemary Mitchell
556
00:31:47.454 --> 00:31:48.954
and Gail Rashudie.
557
00:31:51.789 --> 00:31:55.520
And so it was just, it was empowering us
558
00:31:55.520 --> 00:31:59.103
to offer to others what we had experienced.
559
00:32:00.019 --> 00:32:02.847
So this grew out of Re-imagining?
560
00:32:02.847 --> 00:32:03.930
Yeah, yeah.
561
00:32:05.171 --> 00:32:07.132
Did you use any of the Re-imagining materials
562
00:32:07.132 --> 00:32:08.727
do you recall?
563
00:32:08.727 --> 00:32:10.227
I'm sure we did.
564
00:32:12.247 --> 00:32:16.414
You know I don't remember what, so, but I did know
565
00:32:17.469 --> 00:32:20.127
it was innovative, it was creative,
566
00:32:20.127 --> 00:32:21.460
it was soothing.
567
00:32:32.776 --> 00:32:34.491
It was what we needed.
568
00:32:34.491 --> 00:32:35.324
Yeah.
569
00:32:35.324 --> 00:32:37.684
You know Rebecca, you'd be the person to ask this
570
00:32:37.684 --> 00:32:40.422
because you know how huge the backlash was,
571
00:32:40.422 --> 00:32:42.787
we've talked about it.
572
00:32:42.787 --> 00:32:44.461
Do you think that Re-imagining in the end
573
00:32:44.461 --> 00:32:46.874
had a positive effect on the Presbyterian church,
574
00:32:46.874 --> 00:32:50.291
or what would your evaluation be of that?
575
00:32:51.336 --> 00:32:54.771
That's a really good question.
576
00:32:54.771 --> 00:32:55.854
I don't know.
577
00:32:58.580 --> 00:33:01.937
Probably not on the institution,
578
00:33:01.937 --> 00:33:05.770
because the institution couldn't deal with it.
579
00:33:07.827 --> 00:33:11.744
I think it was positive for many women and men,
580
00:33:17.893 --> 00:33:21.226
in ways that we didn't even think about.
581
00:33:22.391 --> 00:33:26.718
Because when we got that backlash, it was a sense
582
00:33:26.718 --> 00:33:29.635
of reinforcing who we are as women,
583
00:33:33.782 --> 00:33:35.865
and holding fast to that.
584
00:33:37.624 --> 00:33:41.374
But, I guess, that's a really hard questions.
585
00:33:46.494 --> 00:33:49.438
The institution wanted to just deal with it
586
00:33:49.438 --> 00:33:51.484
and then put it to bed, and never think about it again.
587
00:33:51.484 --> 00:33:54.817
And for many of us it just revved us up,
588
00:33:57.534 --> 00:33:59.287
here we come again.
589
00:33:59.287 --> 00:34:00.393
(laughs)
590
00:34:00.393 --> 00:34:01.226
Watch out.
591
00:34:04.396 --> 00:34:07.466
And if you don't join us, you'll be sorry.
592
00:34:07.466 --> 00:34:09.549
(laughs)
593
00:34:11.922 --> 00:34:14.707
So in the end what do you think is the greatest legacy
594
00:34:14.707 --> 00:34:17.207
of the Re-imagining community?
595
00:34:24.510 --> 00:34:26.177
Nurturing women to
596
00:34:32.853 --> 00:34:37.020
engage their creative powers in how we think about
597
00:34:40.031 --> 00:34:43.948
God and our relationship as the body of Christ,
598
00:34:48.817 --> 00:34:51.817
that are refreshing, and energizing,
599
00:34:54.042 --> 00:34:55.209
and affirming.
600
00:34:58.376 --> 00:35:00.460
That is great.
601
00:35:00.460 --> 00:35:02.539
Finally, well two last questions,
602
00:35:02.539 --> 00:35:05.194
one is what do you think Re-imagining means today
603
00:35:05.194 --> 00:35:07.482
and by that I don't just mean the Re-imagining community,
604
00:35:07.482 --> 00:35:11.035
but what needs to be reimagined in Church today,
605
00:35:11.035 --> 00:35:12.054
in churches today?
606
00:35:12.054 --> 00:35:15.887
Well I have to tell you an aside because the
607
00:35:17.244 --> 00:35:21.569
young editor of Presbyterians Today published an article
608
00:35:21.569 --> 00:35:25.694
last fall and was using the word Re-imagining.
609
00:35:25.694 --> 00:35:29.451
And having younger people reimagine something,
610
00:35:29.451 --> 00:35:33.409
and I wrote to him and I said, you need to know
611
00:35:33.409 --> 00:35:35.409
the legacy of this word.
612
00:35:37.906 --> 00:35:42.069
So I told him, and he had also gotten feedback
613
00:35:42.069 --> 00:35:45.585
from people inside 100 Witherspoon in Woolville
614
00:35:45.585 --> 00:35:49.002
National Headquarters about the word too,
615
00:35:50.005 --> 00:35:53.505
and I spoke with him in person in February
616
00:35:54.458 --> 00:35:56.174
I think it was, and he was so grateful,
617
00:35:56.174 --> 00:35:59.841
because I don't want anybody else to use it.
618
00:36:01.769 --> 00:36:05.019
I mean, it's like this was Re-imagining
619
00:36:08.886 --> 00:36:10.469
the Church and God.
620
00:36:12.637 --> 00:36:17.455
So Re-imagining, I mean today it still points me back
621
00:36:17.455 --> 00:36:21.622
to that conference and what's then to be done today.
622
00:36:23.289 --> 00:36:26.539
And I think we need to reimagine again.
623
00:36:28.722 --> 00:36:32.931
We're still in the same place we were in 1993.
624
00:36:32.931 --> 00:36:33.951
Say some more about that.
625
00:36:33.951 --> 00:36:35.048
In what ways?
626
00:36:35.048 --> 00:36:39.095
I just think the institutional church is still there,
627
00:36:39.095 --> 00:36:43.509
and because women aren't getting the same pay as men,
628
00:36:43.509 --> 00:36:47.426
even in Clergy, and there are a few more, women
629
00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:51.388
who are heads of staff.
630
00:36:51.388 --> 00:36:55.555
However, my observance is they are acting just like men.
631
00:36:57.842 --> 00:37:01.925
And that they come together and then don't afford
632
00:37:02.819 --> 00:37:06.458
themselves together with other clergywomen,
633
00:37:06.458 --> 00:37:10.867
who are in smaller churches or are associates
634
00:37:10.867 --> 00:37:12.136
or whatever.
635
00:37:12.136 --> 00:37:15.219
It's just a phenomenon I'm observing.
636
00:37:16.060 --> 00:37:18.393
And I can't think oh my god.
637
00:37:20.714 --> 00:37:22.022
And I think I know your answer to this,
638
00:37:22.022 --> 00:37:23.533
but I'm going to ask it.
639
00:37:23.533 --> 00:37:28.475
What is your perception on the use of inclusive language
640
00:37:28.475 --> 00:37:32.642
and feminist theology in the institutional churches today?
641
00:37:34.196 --> 00:37:35.750
Yes.
642
00:37:35.750 --> 00:37:37.833
(laughs)
643
00:37:39.217 --> 00:37:40.972
It has to be.
644
00:37:40.972 --> 00:37:43.015
Do you think it is there?
645
00:37:43.015 --> 00:37:44.037
In churches today?
646
00:37:44.037 --> 00:37:46.681
No, we've been going backwards.
647
00:37:46.681 --> 00:37:49.212
We've been going backwards in the church for
648
00:37:49.212 --> 00:37:50.379
over a decade.
649
00:37:51.579 --> 00:37:53.496
I see it in seminaries,
650
00:37:55.087 --> 00:37:56.254
and in Church.
651
00:37:57.167 --> 00:38:01.334
I think it's there in many ways (mumbles)
652
00:38:06.111 --> 00:38:08.771
languages, but God is still Father,
653
00:38:08.771 --> 00:38:11.832
and that's a huge, you know don't mess with
654
00:38:11.832 --> 00:38:13.499
my Father, you know.
655
00:38:15.390 --> 00:38:19.392
And I would never, never, where was I just,
656
00:38:19.392 --> 00:38:21.151
I have to look at my calendar to think of where I was
657
00:38:21.151 --> 00:38:25.151
the other day and I can't think of where it was.
658
00:38:28.337 --> 00:38:30.217
Maybe it was, no I don't know.
659
00:38:30.217 --> 00:38:32.800
Anyway, I don't pray to Father.
660
00:38:34.913 --> 00:38:36.663
I use other language.
661
00:38:40.109 --> 00:38:43.359
And I'm right now, the moderator of our
662
00:38:44.608 --> 00:38:47.101
Presbytery's Presbyterian women
663
00:38:47.101 --> 00:38:49.184
and we have a meeting, spring gathering,
664
00:38:49.184 --> 00:38:51.955
a week from Saturday, a week from tomorrow.
665
00:38:51.955 --> 00:38:55.225
And I have reprinted the national brochure
666
00:38:55.225 --> 00:38:58.779
from women's ministries on inclusive language.
667
00:38:58.779 --> 00:39:02.946
I think many people, it's just not in their repertoire
668
00:39:04.414 --> 00:39:05.247
anymore.
669
00:39:09.036 --> 00:39:11.567
So inclusive language is there.
670
00:39:11.567 --> 00:39:14.509
I've got my little Advocacy committee for women's
671
00:39:14.509 --> 00:39:17.975
concerns magnet on one of my cabinets here
672
00:39:17.975 --> 00:39:20.102
in my office, which is inclusive language.
673
00:39:20.102 --> 00:39:22.017
You know you take them apart and put them together
674
00:39:22.017 --> 00:39:23.184
type of thing.
675
00:39:24.627 --> 00:39:25.688
You know, it's just there.
676
00:39:25.688 --> 00:39:27.850
It's prominent, it's needed,
677
00:39:27.850 --> 00:39:30.850
and I don't apologize for it at all.
678
00:39:34.309 --> 00:39:35.577
That's great.
679
00:39:35.577 --> 00:39:38.358
One last specific question,
680
00:39:38.358 --> 00:39:42.440
you probably know we're working on a Re-imagining website,
681
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:45.301
and we're asking for ideas from people about what to
682
00:39:45.301 --> 00:39:47.909
include, who would benefit from it.
683
00:39:47.909 --> 00:39:49.384
How would they find out about it,
684
00:39:49.384 --> 00:39:52.933
just any suggestions you have about that website.
685
00:39:52.933 --> 00:39:56.441
Well I think a little bit of the history
686
00:39:56.441 --> 00:39:58.358
would need to be there.
687
00:39:59.822 --> 00:40:01.175
And what's happening today?
688
00:40:01.175 --> 00:40:06.147
Where are things happening that are outside the box,
689
00:40:06.147 --> 00:40:10.314
following the Re-imagining guidelines, if you will.
690
00:40:12.901 --> 00:40:13.734
Liturgies,
691
00:40:16.780 --> 00:40:18.363
exploration groups.
692
00:40:19.593 --> 00:40:23.019
Bible study groups or study groups, you know.
693
00:40:23.019 --> 00:40:24.978
Book groups, that type of thing.
694
00:40:24.978 --> 00:40:26.974
What are books, you know,
695
00:40:26.974 --> 00:40:28.403
that type of thing.
696
00:40:28.403 --> 00:40:30.449
I know that, I'm trying to think,
697
00:40:30.449 --> 00:40:34.282
I think there was a recent piece that came out
698
00:40:39.885 --> 00:40:43.152
and I thought oh this would be good
699
00:40:43.152 --> 00:40:45.316
for the Re-imagining community.
700
00:40:45.316 --> 00:40:46.149
Of course I can't remember it,
701
00:40:46.149 --> 00:40:48.300
so I can't contribute it.
702
00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:50.383
(laughs)
703
00:40:52.707 --> 00:40:56.334
But I think there are things, lectures.
704
00:40:56.334 --> 00:40:58.502
You know, where are lectures happening,
705
00:40:58.502 --> 00:41:01.691
you know, across the United States.
706
00:41:01.691 --> 00:41:03.487
Because I think I know there are people
707
00:41:03.487 --> 00:41:06.303
who would plug in and say okay on the west coast
708
00:41:06.303 --> 00:41:10.347
in LA in November on 2016, this is happening.
709
00:41:10.347 --> 00:41:11.930
That type of thing.
710
00:41:15.127 --> 00:41:16.556
So it's a networking.
711
00:41:16.556 --> 00:41:19.212
I see it as a lot of networking and resourcing
712
00:41:19.212 --> 00:41:22.462
and providing, noting education events,
713
00:41:27.506 --> 00:41:28.810
you know that type of thing.
714
00:41:28.810 --> 00:41:30.492
And do you have a support.
715
00:41:30.492 --> 00:41:33.929
We started a support group here in Columbus too.
716
00:41:33.929 --> 00:41:36.007
When I moved here in '97,
717
00:41:36.007 --> 00:41:38.542
was there a conference in '98.
718
00:41:38.542 --> 00:41:39.542
There was.
719
00:41:40.542 --> 00:41:43.459
Okay, well one young clergywoman,
720
00:41:45.167 --> 00:41:48.143
we met there, and came back here, and then started
721
00:41:48.143 --> 00:41:51.575
a small group, but it didn't continue.
722
00:41:51.575 --> 00:41:55.137
It just kind of, it just didn't have the oomph
723
00:41:55.137 --> 00:41:55.970
to it.
724
00:41:59.058 --> 00:42:01.431
I'm actually still in a Re-imagining small group.
725
00:42:01.431 --> 00:42:02.740
There's only a few that have survived,
726
00:42:02.740 --> 00:42:03.805
and I'm in one of them.
727
00:42:03.805 --> 00:42:05.400
It's lasted over 20 years,
728
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:06.424
which is great.
729
00:42:06.424 --> 00:42:07.257
I love it.
730
00:42:07.257 --> 00:42:08.139
I love it.
731
00:42:08.139 --> 00:42:09.556
It's wonderful.
732
00:42:11.236 --> 00:42:13.605
Now this has been absolutely wonderful.
733
00:42:13.605 --> 00:42:16.014
Is there anything that we haven't discussed,
734
00:42:16.014 --> 00:42:18.931
that you would like to add Rebecca?
735
00:42:19.892 --> 00:42:23.642
Well, I don't think so I mean you've heard
736
00:42:26.848 --> 00:42:30.598
loud and clear where I was and how I believed
737
00:42:31.909 --> 00:42:34.492
in this, and let's do it again.
738
00:42:36.149 --> 00:42:37.066
Yes, yes.
739
00:42:38.646 --> 00:42:39.479
Wonderful.
740
00:42:40.983 --> 00:42:45.150
I don't have strong feminist friends here in Columbus,
741
00:42:46.373 --> 00:42:48.790
at least I feel like I don't.
742
00:42:50.296 --> 00:42:52.467
So, where are the strong women today?
743
00:42:52.467 --> 00:42:56.634
Where are these women who are bold, who are courageous,
744
00:42:58.507 --> 00:43:01.257
who are putting things out there.
745
00:43:06.021 --> 00:43:06.963
And one thing I was just thinking of,
746
00:43:06.963 --> 00:43:11.777
I think in Re-imagining damaged the institution,
747
00:43:11.777 --> 00:43:14.807
because I think people have, women particularly,
748
00:43:14.807 --> 00:43:16.240
have fallen back
749
00:43:16.240 --> 00:43:20.081
and like now let's tread kind of lightly now,
750
00:43:20.081 --> 00:43:22.498
instead of just going for it.
751
00:43:24.457 --> 00:43:26.381
And I think in Presbyterian women,
752
00:43:26.381 --> 00:43:27.881
that organization.
753
00:43:29.729 --> 00:43:32.997
You know, people think oh Presbyterian women
754
00:43:32.997 --> 00:43:35.367
and (mumbles) so great now because I'm the moderator,
755
00:43:35.367 --> 00:43:37.569
it's like please.
756
00:43:37.569 --> 00:43:41.080
Well yeah, it's because I speak my mind.
757
00:43:41.080 --> 00:43:45.163
I think a little bit if not a lot out of the box.
758
00:43:49.257 --> 00:43:52.174
So I used a quote from Lamont Lobby
759
00:43:53.098 --> 00:43:57.265
who was a Nobel peace prize winner from (mumbles)
760
00:43:58.242 --> 00:44:02.409
I think, about when I was installed a year ago this month,
761
00:44:04.123 --> 00:44:07.540
about treading, something about treading.
762
00:44:11.897 --> 00:44:15.147
Don't just tiptoe, but make an imprint.
763
00:44:19.202 --> 00:44:22.675
I'm doing a devotion for our gathering next weekend
764
00:44:22.675 --> 00:44:25.087
and I want to bring that back,
765
00:44:25.087 --> 00:44:29.254
and say what is it that we've done in the last year,
766
00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:32.487
where we've made an imprint instead of
767
00:44:32.487 --> 00:44:34.352
just tiptoeing?
768
00:44:34.352 --> 00:44:36.599
Wow, that's a great question.
769
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:39.182
It's just, I love that quote.
770
00:44:41.744 --> 00:44:43.577
It's really helped me.
771
00:44:44.819 --> 00:44:47.227
I do want to follow up on one thing you just said
772
00:44:47.227 --> 00:44:50.174
because it's been a question I'm trying to figure out,
773
00:44:50.174 --> 00:44:52.954
and that is, do you think in the end,
774
00:44:52.954 --> 00:44:55.451
the backlash against Re-imagining actually set
775
00:44:55.451 --> 00:44:57.448
feminist theology and inclusive language
776
00:44:57.448 --> 00:45:01.448
back in the church, in the institutional church?
777
00:45:02.603 --> 00:45:03.543
It may be.
778
00:45:03.543 --> 00:45:07.210
I don't know why there was that sliders bin,
779
00:45:08.279 --> 00:45:11.112
you know going back to people not.
780
00:45:15.139 --> 00:45:17.464
You know, that's a good question.
781
00:45:17.464 --> 00:45:20.932
Let me say, that I think the '70s and the '80s
782
00:45:20.932 --> 00:45:24.652
were strong decades for strong women,
783
00:45:24.652 --> 00:45:28.235
because when In went to seminary some women
784
00:45:30.614 --> 00:45:32.822
a year ahead of me and even two years ahead of me,
785
00:45:32.822 --> 00:45:36.989
I just felt in admiration of, and still admire them.
786
00:45:38.216 --> 00:45:42.473
They're women who are strong, who are pivotal
787
00:45:42.473 --> 00:45:44.140
in their leadership.
788
00:45:45.382 --> 00:45:49.259
I don't think we've developed those kinds of women since.
789
00:45:49.259 --> 00:45:52.569
Maybe that's why the inclusive language
790
00:45:52.569 --> 00:45:55.902
is not as, has not happened or continued
791
00:45:57.765 --> 00:46:00.515
in the strong vein as it used to.
792
00:46:02.387 --> 00:46:04.425
Because I'm seeing, I don't know
793
00:46:04.425 --> 00:46:07.204
where my feminist theologian friends here
794
00:46:07.204 --> 00:46:08.553
are in Columbus.
795
00:46:08.553 --> 00:46:11.886
I have to go to California to find them.
796
00:46:16.452 --> 00:46:18.700
Or, you know Peg Chamberlain.
797
00:46:18.700 --> 00:46:20.095
Yes.
798
00:46:20.095 --> 00:46:24.914
Okay, well Peg and I have known each other since I served
799
00:46:24.914 --> 00:46:28.247
on Minnesota Council of Churches in '87.
800
00:46:31.535 --> 00:46:33.652
And so when she and I are together
801
00:46:33.652 --> 00:46:36.916
at a State Ecumenical Execs retreat,
802
00:46:36.916 --> 00:46:40.666
she and I can sit and talk feminist theology.
803
00:46:43.570 --> 00:46:47.730
But I think there just aren't the leaders,
804
00:46:47.730 --> 00:46:49.078
like there were.
805
00:46:49.078 --> 00:46:53.289
And maybe some of that is because we got burned out,
806
00:46:53.289 --> 00:46:55.865
and we got hurt, and we said,
807
00:46:55.865 --> 00:46:57.742
you know I'm done with this.
808
00:46:57.742 --> 00:47:01.492
I don't need to be involved in this any more.
809
00:47:02.387 --> 00:47:04.137
I've done what I can.
810
00:47:05.703 --> 00:47:08.354
So I think, I think that's maybe,
811
00:47:08.354 --> 00:47:10.854
there's some credence to that.
812
00:47:13.054 --> 00:47:15.621
Well thank you so much.
813
00:47:15.621 --> 00:47:17.419
I'm going to turn the recording off now,
814
00:47:17.419 --> 00:47:18.810
if that's okay?
815
00:47:18.810 --> 00:47:19.733
Okay.
816
00:47:19.733 --> 00:47:22.234
Good, I'm just turning the recording off.