Man: Rolling. Interviewer: Okay, good afternoon. We are very grateful to you for participating in the Witness to Guantanmo Project. We invite you to speak of your experiences and your involvement with detainees in Bagram and then about your life subsequent to your experiences in Bagram. We are hoping to provide you with an opportunity to tell your story in your own words. We're creating an archive of stories so that people in America and around the world will have a better opportunity to understand what you and others have experienced and observed. Future generations must know what happened, and by telling your story you're contributing to history. And we're very grateful for you to speak with us today. And if there's any time you'd like to take a break, please let us know. And if there's something you said you wish you hadn't, you can let us know and we can remove it before we print it out. So I'd like to begin by asking you your name, and your birth date, and age, and a little bit about your background before you joined the military. So you could tell us. - My name is Glendale Walls II. I was born November 24th, 1981. I'm currently 33 years old. Before joining the military, I joined the military straight out of high school. So all I had were odd jobs here and there before- Interviewer: Where was high school, where were you living then? - I was living in San Antonio, Texas. - And is that where you grew up, San Antonio? - I kind of grew up everywhere. That's where I lived before I joined the military. Interviewer: And why did you join the military straight out of high school? - Main reason why I joined the military was honestly, looking for college money. That and a chance to get out on my own. Interviewer: And what kind of work did you do when you first joined the military? Where'd they assign you? And which part of the military did you join? - I joined the United States Army. Attended basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky. Then went on to the advanced school, the AIT. Interviewer: Which is what? - I can't think of the name of it. Interviewer: Okay. Do you know? Man: Sierra Vista. - Oh, where was it? Man: At Huachuca. - Yeah. What's AIT stand for? Man: Advanced Individual Training. - That's it. Interviewer: Can you tell us on camera. - Yeah. I attended Advanced Individual Training after basic training at Fort Huachuca, Arizona. And that was for the U.S. Army interrogator course. After that I graduated from there and moved on to Monterey, California, where I went to the Defense Language Institute to learn the French language. After graduating from there, I moved on to Fort Bragg and was deployed to Afghanistan from Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Interviewer: And did you wanna become an interrogator? - When I initially went to the recruiters, I told them that the job I wanted was military intelligence. My dad was military intelligence before me. And basically they kind of gave me the, "Hey, we don't have any intelligence jobs available." - At that point I told them, "Well, you know what, I'm gonna walk away from the table." And then out of their magic hat, they pulled out the, "Hey, we got this interrogator job, but you gotta leave in two weeks." And of course I'm like, "Hey, if that's the only job I can get in intelligence, that's what I'm gonna do." Interviewer: So were you trained as an interrogator before you went to Afghanistan? - I was trained by the military at Fort Huachuca, Arizona. Interviewer: How long was your training? - I believe the training was around eight or nine months. I don't recall off hand. Interviewer: And did you feel like you were trained as an interrogator when you got to Afghanistan? You kinda knew what you needed to do? - I felt like I was trained in order to deal with a set type of army, like an army around ours. We didn't do much training with irregular forces like we ended up dealing with overseas. Interviewer: So when you went to Afghanistan, was it post 9/11? - It was post 9/11. 9/11 actually happened while I was at the interrogation school. Interviewer: And even then no one ever trained you to say, "Look, you know the way we train you is not gonna work post 9/11." Did anyone ever suggest that to you? - At that time, I graduated from the interrogation course two months after September 11th. So there was no revisions made for anything that we'd be possibly facing. Interviewer: So when you got to Afghanistan, what did you think you were facing and what were you facing? - Well, by the time we made it to Afghanistan we'd been briefed that these were Al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters. That's when they started telling us about different exceptions. The fact that any prisoners caught were not considered prisoners of war. They were actually considered persons under U.S. custody that way they stay out of the Geneva Conventions. Interviewer: What year was that and what month, if you remember? - The time we went out there, I was part of an augment group that went out there and I believe we went out, I believe it was September. It was either late August, early September of 2002 that we were deployed to Afghanistan. Interviewer: And they told you as you arrived these are not protected by the Geneva Convention, the people that you're going to be interrogating? - Yes. - Is that kinda what you're telling me? - They gave them a different designator instead of POW. We called them PUCs, which is person under U.S. custody. Interviewer: And did they tell you what the difference would be in terms of how you interrogate them? - Basically the interrogations would be the same as far as questioning. They did let us know that there was a little bit more leeway as far as any kind of handling of the prisoners. Interviewer: What does that mean? - Basically like one of the things we were allowed to do is we could make them do pushups or something like that, which we wouldn't be able to do with a prisoner of war. We still weren't allowed to like assault the prisoners or anything like that, like not physically beat them or anything, but as far as making them stand up the whole time or whatever we needed to do during the interrogation. Interviewer: And was there anybody who supervised? Like if somebody went too far in the way they treated a prisoner, was there anybody there to say, you've gone too far in this? - Well, whenever we did the interrogation it was only two interrogators with an interpreter and then the prisoner. I know later on, not in Afghanistan, but when we did the same job out in Iraq, most of those places have like cameras set up, that way they could see whatever was going on. At that time in Afghanistan there was nothing higher. It was up to the interrogators to police themselves, basically. Interviewer: So if the other interrogator you were with decided to go beyond the limit, there was no one to stop him or her? - If I was ever with somebody that went over the limit, I would be the first one to jump up and stop them. Me personally, but I can't speak for other groups or other interrogators. - Did that happen? - Never that I had to. Never where I thought anybody went too far. There's one I worked with and this individual pulled the beard of a detainee, which it only lasted for a second. We kinda talked about it afterwards, but I didn't feel a need to stop it right there at the point. Interviewer: Would you have been comfortable telling a colleague to stop abusing prisoner? - Oh yeah, if I felt it was anything outside of the guidelines given, then yeah. - You would have. - Mm hm. - But were the guidelines that clear? - Some of them weren't. I know, for example, one of the guys I worked with, basically I had interrogated the guy three times. And at that point, I kept saying that he was innocent. Like I felt the guy had nothing to lie to us about. And I was told by my superiors at the time that, "Hey, you know what, you're being too nice with these guys. You need to get in there, you need to be harsher. You need to be rougher." And that was something I definitely wasn't comfortable with, but I tried it- - How'd you try? - And it eventually led. One of the things I did was I actually grabbed the guy by his shirt and then I just kind of walked him around the room. Just kinda let him know, hey, I'm the guy in charge. I'm the one you gotta talk to. It's against my nature to be physical with anybody. So I tried it and same results. I mean, I still maintain he's innocent at this point. Interviewer: How'd you feel about yourself after you did that? - I felt bad. I felt like even through talking to this prisoner that I'd gained his trust so much that I kinda betrayed whatever, what we had. At that point, I felt like I had lost him for good. Like at that point, there's no reason why I should ever talk to him again. Interviewer: Is that true, did you lose him for good? - I mean, he didn't respond to me the same anymore. It wasn't that, oh, hey, I'm gonna talk to this guy. It's like, is he gonna hurt me for real or something like that? So definitely went against my better judgment. Interviewer: Had you heard of any interrogators going outside the lines while you were there? - Only rumors. Nothing that I witnessed or anything like that. Interviewer: And were you afraid of these detainees? - Me, no, not personally, no. Interviewer: Why do you think about what he said they were worst of the worst. - Honestly, it's a controlled environment. I am six foot four and most of these guys are closer to five 10 at the tallest. So personally, I never felt threatened by them. I've had one were he jumped across the table, but it was kinda push him back real quick and he went back in his seat and that's it. I'll usual just stand up and if they're loud or they look like they're gonna get violent, for me standing up was enough to get them to stop. 'Cause kinda look up and go, maybe this isn't the best idea. Interviewer: Had you heard of situations before you arrived where some interrogators might've been more brutal? - No, like I said anything would be rumors. Interviewer: And two detainees died in Bagram. Were you present for either one of 'em? - One of them was Dilawar. That was the one I was talking about. The one that they wanted me to get rougher with. Interviewer: And that's the one where you were rougher, walk him around the room? - Yeah, that was the one. Interviewer: And then, how soon after did he die? Where were you in that whole process if you were his interrogator, so how did that happen? - I was designated as main interrogator. I know what led up to his was a bunch of different things. I know part of it was the sleep deprivation. My superiors had ordered that he be on sleep deprivation. So basically he was standing in his cell. I forget exactly what the timeframe was now. I think they allowed like two hours of sleep, but it didn't have to be consecutive. So it could have been 10 minutes here, stretched throughout the day. Part of it was, I know there was one of the military police officers that were there, that admitted to giving him these peroneal knee strikes is what they were calling 'em. I guess it's a strike to the back of the knee, which eventually formed a blood clot that went to his heart. One of the last times I ever talked to him, we'd pulled him out and you could tell that he'd been awake for a long time. He personally told me that his wife came to visit him the night before. And you could just see it, he was barely there anymore. Interviewer: Was that true, did his wife really come, or was that his fantasy? - That was his fantasy. He had been awake so long, or whatever was going on inside his body, he was convinced she was there. Those prisoners were definitely not getting visitors. Interviewer: And were you present when the guards were kicking him behind the knee? - No, I'd never witnessed it. Interviewer: Did you have any idea that he was being brutalized during that time or? - No, I had no idea that he was receiving any kinda strikes to his knees or anything like that. That's all information that came to light later. Interviewer: And just so the audience, who might be watching this 50 years from now, could you give a little background on who Dilawar was in the movie, just so they understand the context. - Dilawar was an Afghani civilian that they picked up. He was a taxi driver. He had three other gentlemen in his car. They picked him up in a raid and accused him of firing rockets and other things at a U.S. base. I couldn't recall which one it was anymore. Interviewer: And then, what movie made that famous? - It was a movie called "Taxi to the Dark Side." Interviewer: And when he told you that his wife had visited him and you knew that was hallucination, fantasy, did you begin to worry that maybe this man is dying? Or what were you thinking? - In my eyes, like I had no reason to believe that he'd ever die from anything that was going on that I was aware of. I was aware that they had him on sleep dep chart, the sleep deprivation chart. And I asked that he be removed because basically he's speaking gibberish at this point and you can't talk to somebody like that. You're not gonna get anything that's gonna help anyone. So, at that time I'd asked he be removed from it. But I think it was too late at that point. I don't think he lasted too much longer. Interviewer: So, if you're his interrogator, my understanding is that the interrogator kinda controls the situation. So how could the military act on him without your knowledge? Shouldn't the interrogator be aware of how people are treated? - As, you know, being one of the lower enlisted, any kind of sleep deprivation had to be approved by people that were higher up than us. In order to be taken off it was the same thing. Normally they'd do it on our recommendation, but kinda like I said previously, they felt like I wasn't being strict enough with this guy. So they took it upon themselves to place him on sleep deprivation and really I had no say in it. It was, go back in there and talk to him again. Interviewer: And my understanding is that he also hung by his wrists. Is that true, do you know about that? - When they had them in sleep deprivation, usually what they do is, honestly we call them cages that they kept them in, and it was covered all the way around, so even the top had a grate on there. And they would put a pair of handcuffs through the grate and basically it'd be just high enough for them to be able to stand with their feet on the floor. They wouldn't give 'em any room to like bend the knees or anything like that. Interviewer: Did you see him in that position, or? - I've seen other prisoners in that position. I couldn't tell you if I actually saw him in it or not. Interviewer: And was that considered when you came a legitimate way to treat the detainees that was accepted by- - That was an accepted way. - By your superiors. - That was one they used on, that form of sleep deprivation is what they used on multiple prisoners. Interviewer: And when Dilawar died, what did you think? - I thought it was some kind of freak accident or something like, like I said, at the time we didn't really stay around the prisoners. The only time we ever saw 'em was when they brought 'em up to our interrogation booths. I mean, we had a catwalk where we could see the main group of people, but I know he was separated. So, in order to get down to where he was, I'd have to go through the MPs area and everything else to get down there. Interviewer: And so you were ultimately charged for his death, is that what you were charged for? Or what were you charged for? - They charged me with assault and battery. Interviewer: On Dilawar, or other detainees? - On Dilawar, just on Dilawar. Interviewer: And what was the assault and battery? How did they describe it? - Basically they said, they went down to the finest definition of the law. Because like I previously told you, I'd grabbed him by the shirt. That was considered assault. Or the fact I moved him against his will was considered battery. And so they got me on assault and battery for that. And I think those were the only two. Interviewer: At what point did they charge you? How much after that incident? - That incident happened, I think it was around October or November of 2002. And I was not charged until, I believe it was September of 2005 was when I was formally charged. Interviewer: Did you see it coming? - No, we'd actually been cleared of the charges three separate times beforehand. There had been ongoing investigations and then they found us not at fault. And then they went back and looked at it, not at fault again. Not at fault again. And then apparently out of the blue, they decided that, "Oh, we found something that wasn't there three years before." Which from what I heard is another soldier made some kind of statement, which reopened the whole thing or something. Interviewer: And what were you thinking then when you were charged? - Well, definitely when they brought it up again I was like, "Oh, well, I'm like, here we are going through the motions again." At that point, I'm two months away from getting out of the army anyway. So I'm like, I'm gonna have to deal with this. And then they'll say, "Oh, you're all good again, go home." Didn't turn out quite that way this time. Interviewer: What did happen? - They brought me up on charges. I believe what they told me is I was looking at at a possibility of two years for assault and battery. One of the other soldiers in the unit had made a plea deal. So my lawyer had told me that, "Best case scenario is you take this plea deal, walk away like this soldier. She did it. She got away, no charges at all. She just admitted it was wrong. Got knocked down in rank, got fined." So I decided you know what, it's better than dragging this thing out and having a possibility of anything. So I took the same deal. At that point, the judge gave me two months confinement, reduction in pay grade E1 and a $750 fine. Interviewer: And what does the confinement mean? Were you actually put in a cell for two months? - Yes, I was sent to Fort Lewis, Washington, where I was in military jail for two months before receiving a bad conduct discharge. Interviewer: How does that differ from a dishonorable discharge? - It's pretty much the same. Basically, you can consider it one step higher. Still, I honestly, I don't know why they just didn't call it dishonorable at that point. 'Cause I have, it was never really made clear to me exactly why this one's different. Interviewer: Do you lose the same benefits. - I lost all benefits, GI Bill, yeah, no VA healthcare, or nothing like that. Interviewer: Did you know that when you pled out, that you would lose all these, if you agreed to the plea? - It was not made clear to me, no. Interviewer: Did you ever say anything to your lawyer afterwards, that you think you got more than you agreed to? - I had only talked to her one other time after that. And then even when I was locked up they made me write my appeals while I was behind bars. And what so happened to happen after I got locked up was my appendix burst while I was in jail. So, I had to go through this whole thing. Basically, they accused me of lying while I was in there. - In the prison? - In the prison. They thought I was some kind of hunger strike or something like that. 'Cause I wouldn't eat. I mean, my body was trying to fight itself at that point. They finally took me to the hospital. My body was almost completely septic at the point. So they get me into surgery and I stayed in the hospital, I don't know, it's probably about a week or two after that, before they finally released me back to the jail. Then when I got to the jail is when I started getting correspondence from my lawyer again about writing my appeals for my case. And at the time I was on Oxycontin, just cause my body was still recovering. So basically, I had to write my appeals without any help while I'm on basically a controlled narcotic for pain. So that was two weeks in jail that I'm kind of happy, 'cause I don't have to remember it. But I mean, it was wake up, eat breakfast, take two pills, and then you're right back out because of those. Lunch, two pills, dinner, two pills, same cycle for two weeks. And I don't know what my appeals letter looked like. I couldn't tell you what was on there. Something tells me being that drugged up, it's probably not very good considering the state I was in and where I was at. So, yeah. (chuckles) Interviewer: So how did you feel about having this plea bargain? Did you think it was gonna hurt your future or did you not think about it at that point? - At the time, like I said I was two months away from getting out of the military. So I thought I'd take the plea deal, take my reduction in rank, take the fine, and then just get out on good terms and call it a career. I didn't want any more after going through all that. So my plan was to never stay in. I wanted to get out, go get that GI Bill and go to college. Interviewer: And you lost that. - Lost all that. Interviewer: Before we go any further about that, how long were you in Bagram before you left Bagram? - We were at Bagram for about six, seven months. Interviewer: And then where'd you go? - We got back to Fort Bragg. The day we get back, they had our welcome home ceremony. Well, my family lives in Texas, so we weren't allowed to tell anyone we were coming home. Interviewer: Why is that? - Operational security. They told us we're not allowed to tell anyone. So I show up and I got no family there or anything. It's kinda nice, 'cause my parents probably wouldn't have liked what happened there. I believe it was either our sergeant major or our battalion commander, one of the two, basically said, "Hey, welcome home, great job over there. Don't bother unpacking your bags. You're getting ready to go to Iraq." And after about 45 days of being home, we were back on a plane heading overseas. And what was your job in Iraq? Same thing, as an interrogator. Interviewer: Where? - All over. We were there, we went there in 2003. We were there right when the invasion began. So our unit was kind of split up and we were kinda moved around all over the country. Interviewer: Were you at Abu Ghraib too? - Yes, I was at Abu Ghraib. Interviewer: Were you there when the, I guess the prison guards were abusing the prisoners? - I know we were there around the same time. 'Cause while we're there I never heard of it, but I definitely ended up seeing it on AFN or whatever, when it came to light to the public. But yeah, so I believe it was at the same time we were there. I know some of the same people were there. Interviewer: Did it surprise you since you had not heard anything about it and yet you were there? - It definitely did. And especially, any corridor you walked down in there, the first thing you'd see is no photography beyond this point. - Really. - And it was every hallway or anything that led towards where those prisoners were kept. Interviewer: And you never got charged for any behavior in Iraq? Did you get charged for any behavior you committed in Iraq or it was just Afghanistan. - I got an article 15 in Iraq. - What is that? - That's just a judicial punishment. It wasn't anything criminal. Interviewer: Was that from interrogating also? Was that also coming from the interrogation of someone? - That was non-interrogation on that one. - So when you left the military, where do you think your life is gonna go forward if you couldn't get to go to college, at least outta the GI Bill? What were you thinking would happen next? Or what did happen next? - Just getting out basically it was trying to recover from not being able to work. There was kind of a lull there just trying to find a job. At that point, I was still trying to recover from having my appendectomy too. My body still wasn't back to normal yet. And then just basically picking up whatever jobs I could. Interviewer: Did employers say they didn't wanna hire you because you had a bad conduct discharge about what happened? - Honestly, I never went for any jobs that looked that far into it. Being an interrogator is not exactly a skill that will translate over well to the civilian world. I did try and look at law enforcement. Basically because of the assault charge that was a no-go for at least 10 years. And I didn't have any college, so basically it's kinda like starting back over. I went to go work at Domino's as a delivery driver. Interviewer: Did you think about going to school on your own? Even without a GI Bill. - I thought about it, but you know, just what little debt I did have from the army, I mean, it's not something where I could, no real financial assistance to do anything with. I was more working in the hole when I first got out, than actually making money. Interviewer: What was your attitude when you got out? Would you say you were depressed or angry, or is it another emotion you can explain? - Definitely depressed. I felt betrayed. Interviewer: By whom? - Basically by my government. By the way we were treated with everything. And the way they just kind of toss you out after that. I mean, I was stationed in Fort Bragg. They had my court martial in El Paso. Sent me to jail in Seattle. And basically when my time's over, there's like a, here's a bus ticket home and like $50. I forget exactly what it was. I'm like, oh, yeah. So I got a two-week bus ride and 50 bucks. Thank you. Interviewer: And you felt the army didn't look after you when you did the work for them over those four years, is that what you're saying? - They never, you know, it was kinda, hey, especially in my situation, it was that, getting sent to Seattle. Getting locked up for two months. And then like I said, it's like, "Here's your bus ticket, goodbye." Interviewer: So that was the betrayal. And how was your family? Was your family there to greet you? Was your family supportive? - Oh, my family is very supportive of me. Even my parents sat in on the court martial and everything. And they were not happy about. A lot of it you could tell it was a witch hunt. A lot of it was because of Abu Ghraib. I mean, everybody that's lower enlisted, everything rolls downhill as they say. And definitely didn't splash anywhere higher than us. You know, the people that were telling us to do it stayed in the military, advanced their careers. I'm sure they didn't have any second thoughts about us. Interviewer: You ever point your finger at the people above you as- - I was called to a federal grand jury hearing where I was more than happy to lead them in the right direction. Interviewer: Did you? Did you lead 'em? And did it make a difference? - No, they never pursued anything further. Interviewer: Do you think that's true for your colleagues too that they were all just at the bottom of the rung and they were the ones who paid the price for all that went on. - That's the way I definitely feel as far as anything that happened to any of the other interrogators in my unit. Interviewer: The people who gave you orders did they ever apologize to you? Did they ever say anything to you? Like, sorry you got stuck in this or did they just ignore you after that? - No, a lot of 'em, especially being the timeframe that everything happened, they had already moved on to other places. So, I'm sure we were just in the rear view, if anything else. Interviewer: Do you have any regrets about joining the military after this story? - Oh, definitely, it's something I always wanted to do. I wanted to do it for the college, get out on my own. After the way everything worked out, I don't know, other than the friends I made, I mean if I could go back, I'd be like, you know what? No. Either that I would have lost some more weight, so I could join the Air Force and avoided the whole thing. Interviewer: And how's your life going now, Glen? Were you able to get better jobs over time? - I was able to get better jobs over time. While I was doing the delivery thing, I eventually got set up. Goodwill has a great program. It's kind of like a technical school. So I went and did computer repair. Then I got a job at a call center and that was doing tech support for one of the big companies for their cable service and internet service, where I eventually made it to supervisor. Interviewer: Is that where you are today? - Actually, just got fired from that job. Interviewer: Can you tell us why? - I really don't wanna get into that one. (chuckles) Interviewer: So, do you see your career advancing now? Will you be able to get another job? - What I've noticed is a lotta places, especially since the incident was 2002, most people don't even, they won't look at it. A lot of the times I just avoid putting any kind of military on there. That way they don't have to ask about my records. I'll list I'm a veteran, but if they want like a DD 214, I just don't even pursue it at that point. 'Cause it's pretty much a, "Hey, you're done in the water." Interviewer: I mean, do you think, do you think any of your colleagues committed serious crimes or do you think all of this is really the supervisory personnel who should be blamed? Looking back, what do you really think went on back then? - I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if people were doing things they weren't supposed to. I mean, people were always talking. Like I said, it was all rumors to me. There are people that I know that walked. Like the one I don't, I hate to point anybody out or anything, but people that went on trial. 'Cause I know a bunch of us took deals and there were some that took deals that I know were, they did some things. I could tell just because we are interrogators and it's kind of hard to lie to one another. But again, like I said, it was rumors that I never saw. Interviewer: I mean, it's funny, did you keep to yourself when in at night and so it was just rumors that you were somehow removed from a lot of it? Because certainly what people read, there was a lot going on. - Especially Afghanistan, I went there as part of an augment group. The core group of people had been there the whole time. I was still fairly new to the unit. So I didn't really, you know. Outta that whole group, I actually don't think I knew anyone. There was one that I knew, but he was working in a separate, he was over in Kurdistan whatever, yeah, Kurdistan. Uzbekistan, he was over in Uzbekistan. So he got sent over to a different country while I'm there and that was the only person I truly knew at the time. So I was kinda the outsider when I got there. Interviewer: So from your outside perspective, did it seem because you were told everything was acceptable, did it seem acceptable to you? You just didn't question it. - I really didn't question it. They did briefings like during our shift change, where we'd go over different things. And I mean, everybody was there hearing the same thing. So I mean, if I'm the lowest ranking, newest guy to the unit and nobody else is here questioning anything, I'm just sorta kinda gonna go with it. If I had went in there and they said, "Oh, go punch this guy in the nose." Then of course I'm gonna be like, "No, that's not what we're supposed to do here." But there was never any kinda clear guidelines really given. Interviewer: Did you see people taking drugs during those times? - I never saw anyone taking drugs, no. Interviewer: Was there heavy drinking? - I know there was some drinking going on. I'd lie if I said I didn't on my own birthday while I was out there have a couple drinks that somehow made it to our camp. Interviewer: I mean, it doesn't sound like you were one of the good old boys. Sounds like you were really separate from them. And I wonder, how many people were you sent with in your augment group? How many others were there? - I think maybe about 10 at the most. Interviewer: And you didn't hang out with them either, or they didn't, you know? - No, a lot of them I believe were married at the time. So they weren't even staying in the barracks when we were together. Interviewer: Their wives could come to Afghanistan? - Well no, I mean, before we went overseas. So the only time I really had any alone time with them or whatever, was traveling over there. Interviewer: And then when you were over there wouldn't you have a alone time with them because they didn't have their wives and they would be the augmented group? - Well, you know, they all still knew each other. Like I said, I was still the new guy to the unit. Interviewer: Would you recommend other people go into a military today? - Not anymore. - Really. Why wouldn't you recommend it? - It's just not worth it. I mean, they're gonna put you over there and it's to me, I know the way I've been treated. The last thing I'd hate is for somebody I recommend to join the military to go there, get sent off to war and then get tossed out like I did. I would hate to put somebody through that knowingly. Interviewer: And you think because of Abu Ghraib, you kind of said earlier, I just want to have that on film, because of Abu Ghraib, is that why the military came back and looked at your unit and that's why you became victimized, if you will, for that? That's how you see it? - Right. Interviewer: Did you know interrogators in Abu Ghraib who would have been aware of what was going on? - No, not there, no. I've seen the pictures that were released. I've even seen pictures that weren't released to the public, at least I don't believe were. And there was never an interrogator that I knew that I saw on any of those pictures. That was all MPs. And being in interrogation field's very, very small. If I didn't know 'em, then you know, my colleagues would know 'em. And when you looked at those pictures, we knew that wasn't interrogators involved in that. Interviewer: Do you think that was from the top-down also? Do you think those MPs were instructed by someone else? - I would say no, only because it was clearly posted not to take pictures. That was everywhere. Any corridor, like I said, you went down you would see that. No photography beyond this point. Interviewer: Was that true in Afghanistan, in Bagram? - In Bagram it was very controlled. You had to get through like a little checkpoint at the beginning before you could ever go in. And the only cameras I ever saw there were ones we had for initial screening. So I never saw anybody with cameras there. I don't even think digital cameras were that popular at that point. Interviewer: But in 2003 at Abu Ghraib there were all these signs saying no photos and why would there be signs that said no photos? What would be the purpose of those signs? Who were they, what were they, I mean, if there- - As far as I know, maybe they were posted after they'd caught these MPs doing that. 'Cause I'd never seen those anywhere else that we had a collection point set up. In Afghanistan, I never saw a no photography sign, I don't believe. Unless it was something more related towards the press or something like that. But these ones were clearly not made for press at Abu Ghraib. Interviewer: Did you ever go to Kandahar? Did you ever work in Kandahar? - I never got the chance. I was at Bagram the whole time. Interviewer: And after Iraq, where'd you go next? - After Iraq, it was back at Bragg for the rest of the time. - And at that time, when you said they did bring charges and then dropped them, did you fear that maybe they would bring them again? Or did you have any concerns at all? - Honestly, I thought once they look into and it's done, I thought it was done. I was like, "All right, they looked into it. They saw that, hey, I didn't do anything out of line. I'm gonna be good." And then when it came up again, it was like, again I was just kinda like, "What's going on here. We've already been cleared." And then actually, I'd gotten word from somebody I knew that worked there the third time when they were actually gonna bring up charges, I was at home on leave. I was at home visiting my family. And they kinda called me, I mean, it wasn't official channel but they worked around it. So they kind of said, "Hey, this just came in. They're gonna put you on trial for this." And like I'm at home on leave and my heart just hit the floor. I'm like, you know, I couldn't believe what was happening. It was, I don't know. I don't even know how to put it. Interviewer: And did you have a lawyer at that point or did your parents help you get a lawyer? How did that work? - No. I mean, I didn't have money to get my own lawyer, so. Interviewer: Used a military lawyer? And what'd your parents say? Did you tell them when you were home after you just got charged? - I didn't when I was there at home. I didn't want them to worry about that when I was there. I wanted to make sure that it was true when I got back before I ever brought it up. Interviewer: And did your lawyer confirm what you told us that he also or she also thought that it was because of Abu Ghraib, the fallout from Abu Ghraib? - No, they never really talked that much about it. Interviewer: You think you were, your mistake to have pled? Do you think you should've gone to trial? - I definitely think I shoulda gone to trial. Interviewer: Why? - 'Cause after mine, I went back for one of my friends when they had their court martial. And when I looked at the jury of the peers, and if I had told my story to them and put it in their hands, there's no way that, I woulda just walked out of there. Just went right back to my job where I coulda started clearing out and go home. Interviewer: And your story is what you told us? Basically just grabbing the guy by the shirt. - It's all official records. I don't know how open it is, but. Interviewer: And the person who died in Afghanistan, were you involved with him at all? - No. - You never met him. Had you ever met Omar Khadr while you were in Bagram? - Don't believe so. I don't know a lot of that, I forget names. Interviewer: He was a juvenile. He was a young kid who had been shot by the military. - They called him Buckshot, I believe. - Yeah. - He had gotten shot in the- Interviewer: In the eye and also in the back. - I had heard of him. I'd never spoken with him myself. Of course, everybody kind of talked about him because of his story. As far as I know that basically they came to take him, and of course he got shot with the buckshot. What else, I believe it was him was they told me that he had tossed a grenade that had killed one of the medics. And the only other thing I heard that he had Canadian citizenship as well. But I never personally talked to him. Again, that was just everybody else was talking about him. He was definitely the youngest. That's what made it stick out. Interviewer: Why do you know he was definitely the youngest? - Just his age. Like you never saw anybody smaller than him. Interviewer: Did you have any sympathy for the detainees at any point? Or did you, I mean, I know that many military officials and interrogators probably, and even the prison guards, didn't treat them with humanity, or didn't see 'em as that because you can't abet the enemy. Is that how you saw it, or is that, what was your sense of the men? - I just saw them as people. A lot of our interactions we had to, especially being lowest rank, was I had to help bring in the local workers that were working on the roof of the building. So I was used to interacting with them outside of the prison and inside of it as well. So I never once looked and you know. I can tell you another prisoner we had. He was assigned to me at first until I told them I'm not talking to him anymore basically. They told me, "Oh, he's acting mentally challenged. That's an Al-Qaeda ploy to throw you off." And after talking to this guy like three times and he made some very questionable moves that are not sanitary at all, but I determined that he was, you know, mentally challenged. Like this guy, he's not hiding anything. There's nothing to hide, like that's it. And I felt so bad 'cause they passed him along to so many other people just trying to get him to talk about something. And I know one of the other, one of the other detainees that was in there basically told us that, "Hey, he went to, he went," 'cause I guess they had like a bathroom, which was kind of like a cutoff oil barrel. And basically he jumped in there and kind of splashed around with his feet. Saying if he was acting that was really good acting. But no, that guy was, he wasn't supposed to be there. As far as I know, he got sent back off to wherever they found him. But that was one I felt bad 'cause I'm like, "This kid is just like going through the wringer," when he was going through this for Lord knows how long, before somebody is finally gonna spit him back out. Interviewer: And no one listened to you when you said this person is- - Basically, they're like, "Well, we're gonna get another opinion." Interviewer: And what were you thinking about that? Did you just figure, well, you're doing your job and you just can't question it? - Yeah, I mean, I gave 'em my recommendation. It's kind of out of my hands at that point. They made it clear that I didn't have any power before. Interviewer: Did you begin to change your mind about who these "terrorists," quote, were after working through this or? - Not necessarily that way, but definitely questioned my ability to wanna do the job. Like after the first time, when they had the CID guys come in- - CID? - When they were. It's the criminal investigations. Basically they're like internal affairs, but they're for the military. They come in and start questioning us about it. And I had myself removed from interrogation at that point. Basically they just took me out of there to where I didn't have to work in that center anymore. Interviewer: Why'd you ask to be removed? - Because I felt like the only reason why I would be even looked at for this is because they weren't happy with the job I was doing and trying to tell me, I need to be rougher with people, that kinda thing. So, I just didn't wanna be part of it. Interviewer: Where'd they put you? - They put me in working like the front gate. What we were doing was just screening the local workers. Just kind of getting a feel for them saying, "Oh, hire this guy, don't hire this one." Interviewer: Did other interrogators that you knew also have problems in terms of being stricter or harder on the detainees. like you, like you described yourself? - We definitely had one. Like, I don't wanna say his name or anything on camera, but he's a very religious guy. And when we got there, he's like, "I don't wanna do it." And I know that he did go in on interrogations at some point, but it was more like in a computer aspect when he's asking questions about things they might have found on computers or whatever. But he didn't wanna do it after we got there. And I don't blame him. Interviewer: Hmm. Do you have conversations, did you see a therapist when you got out, or have conversations with people about what you experienced? - No, there was nothing I could afford on my own. The first job I got out, when I got out was as a delivery driver for pizza company. So they weren't quite offering insurance or anything for that position. VA never contacted me or nothing like that for the military. Basically it's like, hey, you got your discharge. You're done. Interviewer: Well, what about when you got a better job and you did get medical insurance? You think about having therapy then? - By the time I finally got insurance was probably about three years ago in 2012. And by that point there's a lotta stuff I just don't wanna talk about anymore. It's just, at this point, it's been 10 years since the incident and I've kinda found ways to cope with it myself, I guess. Probably wouldn't turn it down if it was offered. But, but I mean, I don't know. It's a difficult situation. Interviewer: Could you talk to your parents about, or they didn't really try to talk about it? - I could, it's something I probably don't wanna talk to my parents about. I mean, I have good friends from when I was in, we were all there together. So at least if I need to blow off steam I can talk to those guys. Interviewer: How about your childhood friends, you still friendly with anyone? - I've still got a few friends from high school. But you know, they're all kinda doing their thing. Interviewer: So what's your next step? Are you gonna stay in San Antonio and look for work, or how do you see your life going forward? - Definitely be in San Antonio, trying to get another job. Might move out to go stay with one of my friends, look for a job out that way. Interviewer: Johnny, is there something you're thinking? Johnny: Yeah, I have one question. I mean, it strikes me listening to your story that you were really interested in military intelligence initially. Like you said your dad was involved in it and you signed up, said that's what I wanna do. And then they trained you to do something that was, in a way that was for a different war, it just didn't apply. So I'm just curious, based on what you learned, what you experienced, how would you, you know, let's say you got put in charge of training people to go do military intelligence, what would you, how'd you do it differently? What would you tell them to do? - Honestly, when it came to training, like the formal part of training, we always called it order of battle. And that's dealing with your basic units, starts with a soldier, goes with the squad, goes through a company, none of that applies. None of it applies when it comes to these guys. It works more in cells and things like that. The main thing I would convey if I was in charge of training, it don't matter who you got in there, treat it like it's Geneva Conventions. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, or try and tell you anything that might jeopardize that. That was something they never stressed to us, was you're gonna deal with these irregular forces and all of a sudden, they're not gonna have a code that you follow. But it comes back later that you should have been following this code, when the whole time they were telling us not to. I'd just make it clear. Interviewer: Were you trained in the Geneva Conventions during your training before you went to Afghanistan? - We did have sections on it in training. Interviewer: Did it surprise you when they said that that doesn't apply now? - It definitely did, but they kind of justified it in the fact that this wasn't a regular army. I believe if you go back and look at it, I'm sure it's been amended by now, but if you could find those regs from those field manuals from back when we went through that training, I don't recall it ever having anything about like terrorist or anything like that in there. Especially giving them a different designation altogether, so that they're not POWs. Interviewer: Johnny, do you wanna follow up on that? Johnny: No, I think I'm good. Interviewer: And I assume you and your colleagues didn't really question it because you're not lawyers and you just kind of accepted what you were told. And did JAG, did you meet with JAG lawyers who might've confirmed that what you were told is correct, that these are not POWs and you don't have to apply Geneva Conventions? Were you told that by any JAG lawyers? - Not by JAG. Well, they did have JAG come in sometimes and actually JAG did back it up. Because I know that there were a few of us that had those questions and we made sure that we were gonna ask 'em, because we were questionable of it at first. So of course the JAG presence that was there, they're kind of like, "Oh yeah, yeah, it's good. What your commander is telling you is right, go with it." So, yeah, it's been a while since I thought about some of this stuff. The JAG officers did come in. They weren't there every day, not every day, but every now and then they would come in and give us a brief on something, and then. Interviewer: So you said you were betrayed by the military. Were you betrayed by your country too? - I kinda feel that way. It's all the same to me. I mean, I get no benefits from military, country, nothing like that. Johnny: One more question. I'm curious if your parents' attitude toward the military has changed also? You said your dad was career military, right? - He's retired. - Retired, but you kinda followed him in, and then they watched all this happen to you. How do they feel about it, the military? - I know my dad was definitely upset. He's the biggest, flying the flag and everything like that. And he was not very happy. So I mean, same kind of thing, like even when I came home, like they throw a party and it's the, hey, you got screwed party, but welcome home. Interviewer: So is he still a military supporter, your dad? - No, he's out now. He got out before I ever joined. - I know, but does he still believe in the military and- - He'll always support the troops. But I mean, as far as, I can tell you, definitely around that timeframe, if I was somebody in the military I probably would have stayed away from the house, around the time that that happened. I mean, he's not gonna fault individual soldiers, but he thinks that the whole chain is screwed. Interviewer: Do you have siblings? - I have one - A brother or sister? - Brother. Interviewer: Is he in the military too? - He was, he only did three years and he got out. Interviewer: And did he go to Afghanistan, or? - No, he never deployed. Interviewer: Did he have any thoughts about your experience? Is he younger or older? - He's younger. Interviewer: Did he have any thoughts about his older brother? - Basically the same as like the rest of the family, that this whole thing is crap. Like, should've never happened. Interviewer: Well, I think, is there something I didn't ask you Glen, that you think might be useful for history in terms of thinking people might watch this 10 years from now, or 20 years from now and they just need to understand what happened post 9/11 and how people were caught up, like yourself and what it all means? And if you believe in the rule of law, how that plays out. Is there something, when you agreed to talk to us were you thinking about something that you'd like to share with that kind of audience and that you wanna tell us. - I'm definitely, just kinda go back on that whole thing like you know, being at the interrogation school before September 11th, even the NCOs and everybody would be like, "Hey, you know, a lot of this stuff, don't worry about it. You're gonna go to your unit. They don't need interrogators. There's less than 600 of you in the army right now. You're gonna go to your unit and you're gonna be stuck in the motor pool. That's gonna be your life. You're gonna be working on vehicles in the motor pool." And then you know that one day, September 11th, of course we're outta class for a few days after that and we go back and it's like, "Hey, guess what? All that stuff we were telling you, you know, don't worry about it, guess what? It's pretty high on your list now. And because you're an interrogator, you're probably not even gonna go to language school because there's less than 600 of you. So we're gonna have to start shipping you guys over there." And I mean, it wasn't set up for what happened. Of course, nobody was at that point. Definitely had the worst timing for going into that job, that's for sure. So, I hope it's all settled out now. Interviewer: What should they have done, if there was this emergency, and they need to get the intel and they didn't have the interrogators, what should they have done instead of what they did do? - I don't know. At the time they were good at outsourcing everything. I mean, with your Blackwaters and whatnot. I'm sure there are companies out there that offer interrogation services. Even when I was in Iraq, they brought one, we went through a civilian interrogation course, which I don't remember the name of the company. I mean, something like that could have been an option at that point, at least while they're trying to ramp people up. Interviewer: So you never really were trained for that kind of work, as you said. And they threw you in to it. - I mean, I guarantee you like when I went through the interrogation course that was probably the smallest section on it was like a regular forces. The rest of it was all, "Hey, you're gonna fight Russia." Gonna fight Russia is gonna have all these squads and everything like that. Hopefully by this point in time it's changed. It's more addressed to the current world instead of what we did. Interviewer: Did you know that detainees you interrogated were gonna end up in Guantanamo? Were you aware of Guantanamo at that time? - When we first got there, no. But it became quite apparent that places were coming to us because we're the most secluded. So the other parts in the country were sending us people and every month or couple of weeks or so, we're sending people off and we knew they were going to Guantanamo at the time. Which I don't know if the public did or not at that timeframe. Interviewer: What was your image of Guantanamo, do you recall back then? - If I want to think about it honestly, I didn't even know we had a base there. So I'm like figure they got some sectioned off part of the island where these guys are going. I had no idea. I just knew they were going there. I assumed the facilities were better, but I didn't know. I thought it was kinda strange to send them that far. 'Cause I'm like, all right, I assume at that point we have actionable intel and then the further they're away from their fellow guys, especially the further they're overseas, the less actionable any kind of intelligence comes from them. I mean, unless they told you, "Hey, we got this five-year plan and here's what we're doing." Then by all means, keep them. But if they say, "Hey, this is what we have planned, this is what we did." I don't know what you're gonna do with them in three years while they're sitting down there. I don't understand it. Try 'em or do something, but don't keep 'em locked up. Interviewer: I have just a couple more questions. One is mainly, did you have any fear for your safety while you were in Bagram? - In Bagram, no. We had occasional rocket attacks and mortars, but I never feared for my safety there. Interviewer: And you never feared from the detainees? - No, not from the detainees. - Not given your size. And when Obama became president did you think things were gonna change? - One of his big promises was to pull everyone out. And that's what I wanted for our guys. A lot of it, like, if we even go into the Iraq part, I can tell you sitting down in Kuwait before they sent us into Iraq, they used to come and do briefings every week. They'd have people come talk to you and everything like that. And one of them they had was a guy, who was a veterinarian, I believe. And he was a old Iraqi national. And he came to talk to us. I think he'd become U.S. 'cause he was with the U.S. Army. But used to live in Iraq, under Saddam. And we're all sitting there in this room and he's telling us how horrible things are and how bad it is and how evil Saddam is. From like, you've got a room full of interrogators and people that do equivalent jobs and nobody believed him. I'm like, what are we doing here? You're obviously trying to lie to us. You're trying to get us pumped up for something that- Interviewer: Why do you say nobody believed him? Why wouldn't they believe him? - It's just a vibe. You go through that training and this guy's not coming off as sincere about anything. It sounds more like a pep rally, instead of an actual informative, here's what we're gonna go do. It felt like, I personally felt like we were being misled into it. Like I said, it could just be me. I feel a lot of other people in my unit felt the same thing. Interviewer: When did you go to Iraq exactly? - That was 2003. That was when it started. - Was it spring? It started in March or April of 2003. - Yeah, it started April, April, 2003, I believe. Interviewer: Is that when you went? - Yeah, we went right in afterwards. Interviewer: And did you think, at that time they said that the U.S. was going to strike fast and quick and it'll be over. Did you think that? - Oh, yeah, I remember watching the original one as a kid, when we were just fighting them out of Saudi Arabia. And I was like, we backed that army up pretty quick that time and by everything they were showing us, I was like, well if it follows along the same lines, this is gonna be, it was gonna be quick and done, like you said, you know, it'll be real fast. And I mean, it relatively was at least the race to Baghdad. And then after that's when, I even like to tell people when we first went in it wasn't as bad as when we left. It seems like after, when we first went in everybody's kinda like, alright, thrown down, running. And then after about four or five months of being there, that's when they all start popping up again. So it's like, all right, the official war part was easy. Holding is gonna be the pain. Interviewer: And you were sent in different, what? You were sent to different cities. You weren't just in Baghdad, right? - Right. - And you did interrogation in each of those cities? - Mm hm. Interviewer: And were you alone or were you always with a colleague when you did the interrogations? - Always with a colleague. Interviewer: And what's the purpose of having two people together? - A lot of it's just to cover your questioning. Like, if I'm asking you about something, I'm asking you about a new car or something, and I say, "How's the gas mileage?" And then you start talking about the city mileage and then I move on, then you know my buddy he'll go, "Well, hey, what about the highway mileage? We didn't get the highway mileage on it." Interviewer: And would you talk to your buddy before you start the interrogation to make sure you were on the same path as what question to ask? - Oh yeah, usually we laid out kind of a game plan. Like, "Hey, this is how I'm gonna start talking to him. We're gonna try and touch up on this." Of course, kinda hard when you're dealing with people to follow a strict plan, but at least you gotta have that little guideline, that way you're not playing off of each other or something like that. Interviewer: Did you do good cop, bad cop ever? - I tried it. I don't make a very good bad cop unless I'm quiet. Interviewer: You make a good good cop? - Yeah, I'm a good good cop. Interviewer: Well then what about the other guy being a bad cop, you ever tried that way? - We tried, but it looks funny when the person's smaller than me and they have to play the bad cop. Interviewer: So your image was the bad cop because of your size. - Well, honestly I was 20 years old when I made it to Afghanistan. And I probably only had to shave like once a week. So, I wasn't really passing off as the scruffy bad guy or anything like that. Interviewer: But it doesn't sound like you had it in your either. - No, no, it's not my personality. Interviewer: I think I'm pretty much, unless there's something else Glen, you wanted to tell us just about how you see your experiences and how America can benefit from your experience and your insights? I know I asked you that once, but I'll ask you one more time. If there's anything else you want to add to that, otherwise. - I would say definitely like in my scenario, especially for combat vets and for the ones that have seen combat, like even if we get kicked out or something like that, or like in my case, where I took a plea bargain, got a bad conduct discharge, you know I've seen combat with the rest of my buddies in my unit and sometimes you don't always think right. And that's something that should be addressed. Like even though we were kicked out, if it's not supporting full military benefits or whatever, at least some kind of psychiatric help or something like that, some kind of forum or medium or something that can be addressed. Because I know there's people that are, even I'd be lying if I said, maybe I didn't dabble in drugs when I came back from overseas. And then, how many other soldiers are doing this. And then instead of getting kicked out for doing assault and battery, like me, they're getting kicked out because they failed the drug test. And they're doing these drugs because they were overseas and everything's weighing down on 'em. So even the forgotten part of it like me, who just kinda gets thrown out and tossed back out to the side, should be addressed. I'm sure it's different now than it was then. I can only hope. But I can tell you when I got out me and friends, even had a guy that lived with us, who he's seen it rough over there. He wasn't an interrogator. He basically did like an MP-type job over there. And he was always out beyond the wire. And then he goes home to Las Vegas and I think he was kicked out. And I'm not sure if he was kicked out or not. But he went home to Las Vegas, I think he was there for a couple of weeks before he ODed on heroin. All due to stress from being overseas, which he never got help for. Interviewer: Are you also talking about help while you're in the military or only help once you leave the military? - It should definitely be both. People coming back from overseas should be getting some kind of help. Interviewer: While they're still in the military? - Mm hm. - And they're not? - When I was in, they weren't. Interviewer: Did you think you had PTSD when you left? Did you even think about that? - I think when I was still in I didn't think about it much. There were some instances afterwards, when I was out and away from everything, that definitely, even like driving down the road and all of a sudden, I think I'm looking at the the end of the street and it looks like the mountains of Bagram. Just outta nowhere. Who knows, I mighta ran a red light while I did it. But stuff like that. I mean, fireworks, those were horrible for the longest time. Like I said, it's been a while, so kinda getting used to being around it again. Don't be near me if I'm standing next to the street when a car backfires. Interviewer: Really. - I might throw you down looking for cover. - Really? - Yeah. Interviewer: Did you have nightmares too? - All the time. Interviewer: About your time in Bagram and Iraq? - About the time in Bagram especially. That's the one thing that got me the most is like, if you could talk to Dilawar right now, I guarantee you he'd say I was the only friend he had in that place. Interviewer: So what's the nightmare there, that you betrayed him or that you didn't help him? - That I didn't do enough for him. That's my fault. Interviewer: Did you ever speak to his family? Could you have spoken to his family? - Oh, no, I wouldn't have any way of knowing how to get ahold of them. Interviewer: And did you have flashbacks too? - Occasionally, I never really had flashbacks that bad, but definitely nightmares. Interviewer: And do you see yourself speaking to Dilawar in that nightmare or is it just- - Most of the time, yeah. Interviewer: Do you see yourself speaking to other detainees or to other colleagues in those nightmares, or is it just Dilawar. - There's some other colleagues that I feel like we're to blame that, definitely. If I saw them here, I wouldn't have things nice to say to 'em even after this time. Interviewer: Well, would you wanna just, you said it Glen, but I don't know if you wanna say it just, I think people might wanna hear, do you wanna say that you're kind of like you're sorry you didn't do better for Dilawar that that's- - Oh, that definitely. 'Cause at least even if what I did and I was still convicted for what I did, if he was still alive, then I wouldn't feel so bad. Interviewer: And you'd like to tell him that. Well, that's a good way to end, I think, if that's okay with you. We need 20 seconds of silence, Johnny, room tone before we close down and then. Unless you wanna say something else? - Not that I can think of. Okay, okay Johnny. Johnny: Begin room tone. End room tone.