WEBVTT
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Rolling.
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Okay, good afternoon.
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We are very grateful to you for participating
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in the Witness to Guantanmo Project.
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We invite you to speak of your experiences
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and your involvement with detainees in Bagram
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and then about your life subsequent to
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your experiences in Bagram.
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We are hoping to provide you with an opportunity
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to tell your story in your own words.
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We're creating an archive of stories
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so that people in America and around the world
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will have a better opportunity to understand what you
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and others have experienced and observed.
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Future generations must know what happened,
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and by telling your story you're contributing to history.
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And we're very grateful for you to speak with us today.
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And if there's any time you'd like to take a break,
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please let us know.
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And if there's something you said
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you wish you hadn't, you can let us know
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and we can remove it before we print it out.
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So I'd like to begin by asking you your name,
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and your birth date, and age,
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and a little bit about your background
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before you joined the military.
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So you could tell us.
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My name is Glendale Walls II.
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I was born November 24th, 1981.
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I'm currently 33 years old.
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Before joining the military,
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I joined the military straight out of high school.
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So all I had were odd jobs here and there before-
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Where was high school,
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where were you living then?
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I was living in San Antonio, Texas.
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And is that where you grew up, San Antonio?
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I kind of grew up everywhere.
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That's where I lived before I joined the military.
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And why did you join the military
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straight out of high school?
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Main reason why I joined the military was honestly,
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looking for college money.
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That and a chance to get out on my own.
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And what kind of work did you do
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when you first joined the military?
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Where'd they assign you?
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And which part of the military did you join?
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I joined the United States Army.
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Attended basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky.
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Then went on to the advanced school, the AIT.
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Which is what?
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I can't think of the name of it.
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Okay.
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Do you know?
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Sierra Vista.
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Oh, where was it?
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At Huachuca.
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Yeah. What's AIT stand for?
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Advanced Individual Training.
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That's it.
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Can you tell us on camera.
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Yeah.
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I attended Advanced Individual Training
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after basic training at Fort Huachuca, Arizona.
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And that was for the U.S. Army interrogator course.
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After that I graduated from there
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and moved on to Monterey, California,
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where I went to the Defense Language Institute
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to learn the French language.
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After graduating from there, I moved on to Fort Bragg
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and was deployed to Afghanistan
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from Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
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And did you wanna become an interrogator?
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When I initially went to the recruiters,
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I told them that the job I wanted was military intelligence.
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My dad was military intelligence before me.
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And basically they kind of gave me the,
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"Hey, we don't have any intelligence jobs available."
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At that point I told them, "Well, you know what,
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I'm gonna walk away from the table."
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And then out of their magic hat, they pulled out the,
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"Hey, we got this interrogator job,
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but you gotta leave in two weeks."
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And of course I'm like, "Hey, if that's the only job
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I can get in intelligence, that's what I'm gonna do."
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So were you trained as an interrogator
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before you went to Afghanistan?
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I was trained by the military at Fort Huachuca, Arizona.
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How long was your training?
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I believe the training was around eight or nine months.
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I don't recall off hand.
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And did you feel like you were trained
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as an interrogator when you got to Afghanistan?
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You kinda knew what you needed to do?
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I felt like I was trained in order to deal with
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a set type of army, like an army around ours.
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We didn't do much training with irregular forces
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like we ended up dealing with overseas.
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So when you went to Afghanistan,
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was it post 9/11?
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It was post 9/11.
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9/11 actually happened while I was at
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the interrogation school.
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And even then no one ever trained you
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to say, "Look, you know the way we train you
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is not gonna work post 9/11."
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Did anyone ever suggest that to you?
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At that time, I graduated from the interrogation course
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two months after September 11th.
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So there was no revisions made for anything
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that we'd be possibly facing.
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So when you got to Afghanistan,
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what did you think you were facing and what were you facing?
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Well, by the time we made it to Afghanistan
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we'd been briefed that these were Al-Qaeda
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and Taliban fighters.
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That's when they started telling us
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about different exceptions.
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The fact that any prisoners caught
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were not considered prisoners of war.
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They were actually considered persons under U.S. custody
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that way they stay out of the Geneva Conventions.
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What year was that
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and what month, if you remember?
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The time we went out there,
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I was part of an augment group that went out there
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and I believe we went out, I believe it was September.
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It was either late August, early September of 2002
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that we were deployed to Afghanistan.
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And they told you as you arrived
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these are not protected by the Geneva Convention,
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the people that you're going to be interrogating?
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Yes.
Is that kinda
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what you're telling me?
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They gave them a different designator instead of POW.
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We called them PUCs, which is person under U.S. custody.
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And did they tell you
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what the difference would be
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in terms of how you interrogate them?
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Basically the interrogations would be the same
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as far as questioning.
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They did let us know that there was a little bit more leeway
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as far as any kind of handling of the prisoners.
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What does that mean?
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Basically like one of the things we were allowed to do is
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we could make them do pushups or something like that,
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which we wouldn't be able to do with a prisoner of war.
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We still weren't allowed to like assault the prisoners
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or anything like that, like not physically beat them
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or anything, but as far as making them stand up
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the whole time or whatever we needed to do
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during the interrogation.
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And was there anybody who supervised?
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Like if somebody went too far
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in the way they treated a prisoner,
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was there anybody there to say, you've gone too far in this?
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Well, whenever we did the interrogation
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it was only two interrogators with an interpreter
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and then the prisoner.
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I know later on, not in Afghanistan,
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but when we did the same job out in Iraq,
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most of those places have like cameras set up,
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that way they could see whatever was going on.
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At that time in Afghanistan there was nothing higher.
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It was up to the interrogators
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to police themselves, basically.
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So if the other interrogator you were with
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decided to go beyond the limit,
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there was no one to stop him or her?
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If I was ever with somebody that went over the limit,
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I would be the first one to jump up and stop them.
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Me personally, but I can't speak for other groups
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or other interrogators.
Did that happen?
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Never that I had to.
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Never where I thought anybody went too far.
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There's one I worked with
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and this individual pulled the beard of a detainee,
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which it only lasted for a second.
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We kinda talked about it afterwards,
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but I didn't feel a need to stop it
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right there at the point.
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Would you have been comfortable
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telling a colleague to stop abusing prisoner?
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Oh yeah, if I felt it was anything
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outside of the guidelines given,
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then yeah.
You would have.
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Mm hm.
But were the guidelines
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that clear?
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Some of them weren't.
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I know, for example, one of the guys I worked with,
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basically I had interrogated the guy three times.
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And at that point, I kept saying that he was innocent.
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Like I felt the guy had nothing to lie to us about.
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And I was told by my superiors at the time that,
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"Hey, you know what, you're being too nice with these guys.
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You need to get in there, you need to be harsher.
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You need to be rougher."
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And that was something I definitely wasn't comfortable with,
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but I tried it-
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How'd you try?
And it eventually led.
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One of the things I did was I actually
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grabbed the guy by his shirt
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and then I just kind of walked him around the room.
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Just kinda let him know, hey, I'm the guy in charge.
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I'm the one you gotta talk to.
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It's against my nature to be physical with anybody.
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So I tried it and same results.
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I mean, I still maintain he's innocent at this point.
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How'd you feel about yourself
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after you did that?
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I felt bad.
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I felt like even through talking to this prisoner
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that I'd gained his trust so much that I kinda betrayed
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whatever, what we had.
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At that point, I felt like I had lost him for good.
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Like at that point, there's no reason
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why I should ever talk to him again.
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Is that true, did you lose him for good?
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I mean, he didn't respond to me the same anymore.
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It wasn't that, oh, hey, I'm gonna talk to this guy.
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It's like, is he gonna hurt me for real
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or something like that?
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So definitely went against my better judgment.
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Had you heard of any interrogators
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going outside the lines while you were there?
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Only rumors.
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Nothing that I witnessed or anything like that.
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And were you afraid of these detainees?
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Me, no, not personally, no.
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Why do you think about what he said
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they were worst of the worst.
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Honestly, it's a controlled environment.
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I am six foot four and most of these guys
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are closer to five 10 at the tallest.
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So personally, I never felt threatened by them.
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I've had one were he jumped across the table,
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but it was kinda push him back real quick
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and he went back in his seat and that's it.
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I'll usual just stand up and if they're loud
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or they look like they're gonna get violent,
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for me standing up was enough to get them to stop.
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'Cause kinda look up and go, maybe this isn't the best idea.
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Had you heard of situations
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before you arrived where some interrogators
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might've been more brutal?
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No, like I said anything would be rumors.
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And two detainees died in Bagram.
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Were you present for either one of 'em?
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One of them was Dilawar.
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That was the one I was talking about.
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The one that they wanted me to get rougher with.
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And that's the one where you were rougher,
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walk him around the room?
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Yeah, that was the one.
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And then, how soon after did he die?
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Where were you in that whole process
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if you were his interrogator, so how did that happen?
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I was designated as main interrogator.
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I know what led up to his was a bunch of different things.
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I know part of it was the sleep deprivation.
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My superiors had ordered that he be on sleep deprivation.
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So basically he was standing in his cell.
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I forget exactly what the timeframe was now.
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00:12:24.090 --> 00:12:26.403
I think they allowed like two hours of sleep,
266
00:12:27.670 --> 00:12:30.020
but it didn't have to be consecutive.
267
00:12:30.020 --> 00:12:33.340
So it could have been 10 minutes here,
268
00:12:33.340 --> 00:12:34.790
stretched throughout the day.
269
00:12:36.570 --> 00:12:39.100
Part of it was, I know there was
270
00:12:39.100 --> 00:12:42.290
one of the military police officers that were there,
271
00:12:42.290 --> 00:12:44.020
that admitted to giving him these
272
00:12:44.020 --> 00:12:46.810
peroneal knee strikes is what they were calling 'em.
273
00:12:46.810 --> 00:12:49.840
I guess it's a strike to the back of the knee,
274
00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:52.863
which eventually formed a blood clot that went to his heart.
275
00:12:54.640 --> 00:12:56.883
One of the last times I ever talked to him,
276
00:12:58.430 --> 00:13:00.090
we'd pulled him out and you could tell
277
00:13:00.090 --> 00:13:02.563
that he'd been awake for a long time.
278
00:13:03.670 --> 00:13:06.040
He personally told me that his wife came to visit him
279
00:13:06.040 --> 00:13:07.880
the night before.
280
00:13:07.880 --> 00:13:12.830
And you could just see it, he was barely there anymore.
281
00:13:12.830 --> 00:13:14.560
Was that true, did his wife really come,
282
00:13:14.560 --> 00:13:15.650
or was that his fantasy?
283
00:13:15.650 --> 00:13:17.280
That was his fantasy.
284
00:13:17.280 --> 00:13:20.750
He had been awake so long, or whatever was going on
285
00:13:20.750 --> 00:13:24.690
inside his body, he was convinced she was there.
286
00:13:24.690 --> 00:13:27.340
Those prisoners were definitely not getting visitors.
287
00:13:28.369 --> 00:13:29.700
And were you present
288
00:13:29.700 --> 00:13:33.480
when the guards were kicking him behind the knee?
289
00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:35.653
No, I'd never witnessed it.
290
00:13:37.188 --> 00:13:38.021
Did you have any idea
291
00:13:38.021 --> 00:13:42.710
that he was being brutalized during that time or?
292
00:13:42.710 --> 00:13:44.870
No, I had no idea that he was receiving
293
00:13:44.870 --> 00:13:47.970
any kinda strikes to his knees or anything like that.
294
00:13:47.970 --> 00:13:51.040
That's all information that came to light later.
295
00:13:51.040 --> 00:13:52.900
And just so the audience,
296
00:13:52.900 --> 00:13:55.150
who might be watching this 50 years from now,
297
00:13:55.150 --> 00:13:56.250
could you give a little background
298
00:13:56.250 --> 00:13:57.820
on who Dilawar was in the movie,
299
00:13:57.820 --> 00:14:00.680
just so they understand the context.
300
00:14:00.680 --> 00:14:05.263
Dilawar was an Afghani civilian that they picked up.
301
00:14:06.500 --> 00:14:08.810
He was a taxi driver.
302
00:14:08.810 --> 00:14:11.680
He had three other gentlemen in his car.
303
00:14:11.680 --> 00:14:13.220
They picked him up in a raid
304
00:14:14.930 --> 00:14:17.470
and accused him of firing rockets
305
00:14:17.470 --> 00:14:20.880
and other things at a U.S. base.
306
00:14:20.880 --> 00:14:23.780
I couldn't recall which one it was anymore.
307
00:14:23.780 --> 00:14:26.980
And then, what movie made that famous?
308
00:14:26.980 --> 00:14:29.710
It was a movie called "Taxi to the Dark Side."
309
00:14:29.710 --> 00:14:34.710
And when he told you that his wife
310
00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.773
had visited him and you knew
311
00:14:37.773 --> 00:14:40.020
that was hallucination, fantasy,
312
00:14:40.020 --> 00:14:42.640
did you begin to worry that maybe this man is dying?
313
00:14:42.640 --> 00:14:44.523
Or what were you thinking?
314
00:14:46.070 --> 00:14:49.030
In my eyes, like I had no reason to believe
315
00:14:49.030 --> 00:14:51.900
that he'd ever die from anything that was going on
316
00:14:51.900 --> 00:14:53.123
that I was aware of.
317
00:14:54.280 --> 00:14:56.860
I was aware that they had him on sleep dep chart,
318
00:14:56.860 --> 00:14:58.780
the sleep deprivation chart.
319
00:14:58.780 --> 00:15:00.450
And I asked that he be removed
320
00:15:00.450 --> 00:15:04.250
because basically he's speaking gibberish at this point
321
00:15:04.250 --> 00:15:06.460
and you can't talk to somebody like that.
322
00:15:06.460 --> 00:15:08.950
You're not gonna get anything that's gonna help anyone.
323
00:15:08.950 --> 00:15:12.760
So, at that time I'd asked he be removed from it.
324
00:15:12.760 --> 00:15:15.160
But I think it was too late at that point.
325
00:15:15.160 --> 00:15:17.190
I don't think he lasted too much longer.
326
00:15:17.190 --> 00:15:18.550
So, if you're his interrogator,
327
00:15:18.550 --> 00:15:20.220
my understanding is that the interrogator
328
00:15:20.220 --> 00:15:22.390
kinda controls the situation.
329
00:15:22.390 --> 00:15:27.390
So how could the military act on him without your knowledge?
330
00:15:31.009 --> 00:15:32.370
Shouldn't the interrogator be aware
331
00:15:32.370 --> 00:15:33.823
of how people are treated?
332
00:15:35.610 --> 00:15:39.653
As, you know, being one of the lower enlisted,
333
00:15:40.630 --> 00:15:43.260
any kind of sleep deprivation had to be approved
334
00:15:43.260 --> 00:15:46.732
by people that were higher up than us.
335
00:15:46.732 --> 00:15:49.130
In order to be taken off it was the same thing.
336
00:15:49.130 --> 00:15:52.320
Normally they'd do it on our recommendation,
337
00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:54.080
but kinda like I said previously,
338
00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:58.100
they felt like I wasn't being strict enough with this guy.
339
00:15:58.100 --> 00:15:59.490
So they took it upon themselves
340
00:15:59.490 --> 00:16:02.080
to place him on sleep deprivation
341
00:16:03.780 --> 00:16:05.810
and really I had no say in it.
342
00:16:05.810 --> 00:16:08.810
It was, go back in there and talk to him again.
343
00:16:08.810 --> 00:16:09.880
And my understanding is that
344
00:16:09.880 --> 00:16:11.720
he also hung by his wrists.
345
00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:14.780
Is that true, do you know about that?
346
00:16:14.780 --> 00:16:17.830
When they had them in sleep deprivation,
347
00:16:17.830 --> 00:16:21.770
usually what they do is, honestly we call them cages
348
00:16:21.770 --> 00:16:23.490
that they kept them in,
349
00:16:23.490 --> 00:16:25.860
and it was covered all the way around,
350
00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:28.940
so even the top had a grate on there.
351
00:16:28.940 --> 00:16:31.427
And they would put a pair of handcuffs through the grate
352
00:16:31.427 --> 00:16:33.180
and basically it'd be just high enough
353
00:16:33.180 --> 00:16:37.843
for them to be able to stand with their feet on the floor.
354
00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:41.930
They wouldn't give 'em any room to like bend the knees
355
00:16:41.930 --> 00:16:43.370
or anything like that.
356
00:16:43.370 --> 00:16:45.860
Did you see him in that position, or?
357
00:16:45.860 --> 00:16:48.530
I've seen other prisoners in that position.
358
00:16:48.530 --> 00:16:51.180
I couldn't tell you if I actually saw him in it or not.
359
00:16:51.180 --> 00:16:54.380
And was that considered when you came
360
00:16:54.380 --> 00:16:57.780
a legitimate way to treat the detainees
361
00:16:57.780 --> 00:17:00.270
that was accepted by-
362
00:17:00.270 --> 00:17:02.123
That was an accepted way.
By your superiors.
363
00:17:02.123 --> 00:17:03.740
That was one they used on,
364
00:17:03.740 --> 00:17:05.043
that form of sleep deprivation
365
00:17:05.043 --> 00:17:07.303
is what they used on multiple prisoners.
366
00:17:08.750 --> 00:17:11.863
And when Dilawar died, what did you think?
367
00:17:12.870 --> 00:17:14.990
I thought it was some kind of freak accident
368
00:17:14.990 --> 00:17:19.840
or something like, like I said, at the time
369
00:17:19.840 --> 00:17:22.203
we didn't really stay around the prisoners.
370
00:17:23.580 --> 00:17:24.720
The only time we ever saw 'em
371
00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:28.060
was when they brought 'em up to our interrogation booths.
372
00:17:28.060 --> 00:17:30.370
I mean, we had a catwalk where we could see
373
00:17:30.370 --> 00:17:34.680
the main group of people, but I know he was separated.
374
00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:37.180
So, in order to get down to where he was,
375
00:17:37.180 --> 00:17:39.030
I'd have to go through the MPs area
376
00:17:39.030 --> 00:17:40.930
and everything else to get down there.
377
00:17:42.340 --> 00:17:47.150
And so you were ultimately charged
378
00:17:47.150 --> 00:17:48.940
for his death, is that what you were charged for?
379
00:17:48.940 --> 00:17:50.700
Or what were you charged for?
380
00:17:50.700 --> 00:17:53.783
They charged me with assault and battery.
381
00:17:54.854 --> 00:17:55.970
On Dilawar, or other detainees?
382
00:17:55.970 --> 00:17:58.340
On Dilawar, just on Dilawar.
383
00:17:58.340 --> 00:18:00.510
And what was the assault and battery?
384
00:18:00.510 --> 00:18:01.933
How did they describe it?
385
00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.220
Basically they said, they went down to the finest
386
00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:07.493
definition of the law.
387
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:10.510
Because like I previously told you,
388
00:18:10.510 --> 00:18:12.460
I'd grabbed him by the shirt.
389
00:18:12.460 --> 00:18:14.540
That was considered assault.
390
00:18:14.540 --> 00:18:16.730
Or the fact I moved him against his will
391
00:18:16.730 --> 00:18:18.750
was considered battery.
392
00:18:18.750 --> 00:18:22.220
And so they got me on assault and battery for that.
393
00:18:22.220 --> 00:18:24.123
And I think those were the only two.
394
00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.720
At what point did they charge you?
395
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:29.543
How much after that incident?
396
00:18:29.543 --> 00:18:33.280
That incident happened, I think it was around October
397
00:18:33.280 --> 00:18:35.530
or November of 2002.
398
00:18:35.530 --> 00:18:38.453
And I was not charged until,
399
00:18:40.790 --> 00:18:44.050
I believe it was September of 2005
400
00:18:44.050 --> 00:18:47.096
was when I was formally charged.
401
00:18:47.096 --> 00:18:48.776
Did you see it coming?
402
00:18:48.776 --> 00:18:51.960
No, we'd actually been cleared of the charges
403
00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:53.763
three separate times beforehand.
404
00:18:56.085 --> 00:18:58.720
There had been ongoing investigations
405
00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:01.150
and then they found us not at fault.
406
00:19:01.150 --> 00:19:02.427
And then they went back and looked at it,
407
00:19:02.427 --> 00:19:03.990
not at fault again.
408
00:19:03.990 --> 00:19:05.670
Not at fault again.
409
00:19:05.670 --> 00:19:08.637
And then apparently out of the blue, they decided that,
410
00:19:08.637 --> 00:19:10.570
"Oh, we found something that wasn't there
411
00:19:10.570 --> 00:19:12.130
three years before."
412
00:19:12.130 --> 00:19:17.130
Which from what I heard is another soldier
413
00:19:17.570 --> 00:19:19.170
made some kind of statement,
414
00:19:19.170 --> 00:19:22.093
which reopened the whole thing or something.
415
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:25.470
And what were you thinking then
416
00:19:25.470 --> 00:19:26.733
when you were charged?
417
00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:29.400
Well, definitely when they brought it up again
418
00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:31.740
I was like, "Oh, well, I'm like, here we are
419
00:19:31.740 --> 00:19:33.760
going through the motions again."
420
00:19:33.760 --> 00:19:35.390
At that point, I'm two months away
421
00:19:35.390 --> 00:19:37.020
from getting out of the army anyway.
422
00:19:37.020 --> 00:19:39.640
So I'm like, I'm gonna have to deal with this.
423
00:19:39.640 --> 00:19:43.587
And then they'll say, "Oh, you're all good again, go home."
424
00:19:44.870 --> 00:19:46.530
Didn't turn out quite that way this time.
425
00:19:46.530 --> 00:19:48.130
What did happen?
426
00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:51.003
They brought me up on charges.
427
00:19:52.890 --> 00:19:54.430
I believe what they told me is
428
00:19:54.430 --> 00:19:57.240
I was looking at at a possibility of two years
429
00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:58.503
for assault and battery.
430
00:20:00.050 --> 00:20:03.800
One of the other soldiers in the unit had made a plea deal.
431
00:20:03.800 --> 00:20:08.770
So my lawyer had told me that, "Best case scenario
432
00:20:08.770 --> 00:20:12.700
is you take this plea deal, walk away like this soldier.
433
00:20:12.700 --> 00:20:13.750
She did it.
434
00:20:13.750 --> 00:20:15.810
She got away, no charges at all.
435
00:20:15.810 --> 00:20:17.540
She just admitted it was wrong.
436
00:20:17.540 --> 00:20:20.320
Got knocked down in rank, got fined."
437
00:20:20.320 --> 00:20:22.380
So I decided you know what,
438
00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:24.010
it's better than dragging this thing out
439
00:20:24.010 --> 00:20:26.303
and having a possibility of anything.
440
00:20:27.190 --> 00:20:28.623
So I took the same deal.
441
00:20:29.860 --> 00:20:34.713
At that point, the judge gave me two months confinement,
442
00:20:35.810 --> 00:20:40.103
reduction in pay grade E1 and a $750 fine.
443
00:20:41.410 --> 00:20:44.770
And what does the confinement mean?
444
00:20:44.770 --> 00:20:48.640
Were you actually put in a cell for two months?
445
00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:51.780
Yes, I was sent to Fort Lewis, Washington,
446
00:20:51.780 --> 00:20:56.780
where I was in military jail for two months
447
00:20:57.620 --> 00:21:00.240
before receiving a bad conduct discharge.
448
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:01.073
How does that differ
449
00:21:01.073 --> 00:21:02.833
from a dishonorable discharge?
450
00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:05.883
It's pretty much the same.
451
00:21:07.010 --> 00:21:09.603
Basically, you can consider it one step higher.
452
00:21:11.340 --> 00:21:14.050
Still, I honestly, I don't know why
453
00:21:14.050 --> 00:21:15.750
they just didn't call it dishonorable at that point.
454
00:21:15.750 --> 00:21:18.560
'Cause I have, it was never really made clear to me
455
00:21:18.560 --> 00:21:20.610
exactly why this one's different.
456
00:21:20.610 --> 00:21:23.090
Do you lose the same benefits.
457
00:21:23.090 --> 00:21:28.090
I lost all benefits, GI Bill, yeah, no VA healthcare,
458
00:21:30.710 --> 00:21:31.910
or nothing like that.
459
00:21:31.910 --> 00:21:33.630
Did you know that when you pled out,
460
00:21:33.630 --> 00:21:38.147
that you would lose all these, if you agreed to the plea?
461
00:21:38.147 --> 00:21:40.307
It was not made clear to me, no.
462
00:21:40.307 --> 00:21:41.390
Did you ever say anything
463
00:21:41.390 --> 00:21:43.877
to your lawyer afterwards, that you think you got
464
00:21:43.877 --> 00:21:45.973
more than you agreed to?
465
00:21:48.280 --> 00:21:50.963
I had only talked to her one other time after that.
466
00:21:53.020 --> 00:21:54.690
And then even when I was locked up
467
00:21:54.690 --> 00:21:57.390
they made me write my appeals while I was behind bars.
468
00:21:59.473 --> 00:22:02.750
And what so happened to happen after I got locked up
469
00:22:04.230 --> 00:22:06.373
was my appendix burst while I was in jail.
470
00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:12.790
So, I had to go through this whole thing.
471
00:22:12.790 --> 00:22:15.727
Basically, they accused me of lying while I was in there.
472
00:22:15.727 --> 00:22:17.020
In the prison?
In the prison.
473
00:22:17.020 --> 00:22:18.850
They thought I was some kind of hunger strike
474
00:22:18.850 --> 00:22:19.810
or something like that.
475
00:22:19.810 --> 00:22:20.643
'Cause I wouldn't eat.
476
00:22:20.643 --> 00:22:24.730
I mean, my body was trying to fight itself at that point.
477
00:22:24.730 --> 00:22:27.500
They finally took me to the hospital.
478
00:22:27.500 --> 00:22:30.343
My body was almost completely septic at the point.
479
00:22:31.290 --> 00:22:35.300
So they get me into surgery and I stayed in the hospital,
480
00:22:35.300 --> 00:22:38.290
I don't know, it's probably about a week or two after that,
481
00:22:38.290 --> 00:22:40.853
before they finally released me back to the jail.
482
00:22:41.910 --> 00:22:43.510
Then when I got to the jail is when I started
483
00:22:43.510 --> 00:22:46.120
getting correspondence from my lawyer again
484
00:22:46.120 --> 00:22:48.403
about writing my appeals for my case.
485
00:22:50.596 --> 00:22:53.520
And at the time I was on Oxycontin,
486
00:22:53.520 --> 00:22:56.350
just cause my body was still recovering.
487
00:22:56.350 --> 00:23:00.230
So basically, I had to write my appeals without any help
488
00:23:01.190 --> 00:23:04.580
while I'm on basically a controlled narcotic for pain.
489
00:23:04.580 --> 00:23:09.580
So that was two weeks in jail that I'm kind of happy,
490
00:23:10.170 --> 00:23:11.340
'cause I don't have to remember it.
491
00:23:11.340 --> 00:23:16.073
But I mean, it was wake up, eat breakfast, take two pills,
492
00:23:16.930 --> 00:23:19.340
and then you're right back out because of those.
493
00:23:19.340 --> 00:23:22.530
Lunch, two pills, dinner, two pills,
494
00:23:22.530 --> 00:23:23.950
same cycle for two weeks.
495
00:23:23.950 --> 00:23:27.440
And I don't know what my appeals letter looked like.
496
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:29.340
I couldn't tell you what was on there.
497
00:23:30.260 --> 00:23:32.440
Something tells me being that drugged up,
498
00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:35.410
it's probably not very good considering the state I was in
499
00:23:35.410 --> 00:23:36.380
and where I was at.
500
00:23:36.380 --> 00:23:39.353
So, yeah. (chuckles)
501
00:23:41.620 --> 00:23:46.450
So how did you feel about
502
00:23:46.450 --> 00:23:47.780
having this plea bargain?
503
00:23:47.780 --> 00:23:50.240
Did you think it was gonna hurt your future
504
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:52.970
or did you not think about it at that point?
505
00:23:52.970 --> 00:23:56.180
At the time, like I said I was two months away
506
00:23:56.180 --> 00:23:57.830
from getting out of the military.
507
00:23:58.930 --> 00:24:01.253
So I thought I'd take the plea deal,
508
00:24:02.930 --> 00:24:05.910
take my reduction in rank, take the fine,
509
00:24:05.910 --> 00:24:09.563
and then just get out on good terms and call it a career.
510
00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:13.760
I didn't want any more after going through all that.
511
00:24:13.760 --> 00:24:17.423
So my plan was to never stay in.
512
00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:23.323
I wanted to get out, go get that GI Bill and go to college.
513
00:24:24.306 --> 00:24:25.320
And you lost that.
514
00:24:25.320 --> 00:24:26.253
Lost all that.
515
00:24:29.520 --> 00:24:31.853
Before we go any further about that,
516
00:24:32.690 --> 00:24:35.240
how long were you in Bagram before you left Bagram?
517
00:24:36.500 --> 00:24:41.500
We were at Bagram for about six, seven months.
518
00:24:42.069 --> 00:24:43.910
And then where'd you go?
519
00:24:43.910 --> 00:24:46.580
We got back to Fort Bragg.
520
00:24:46.580 --> 00:24:49.380
The day we get back, they had our welcome home ceremony.
521
00:24:52.284 --> 00:24:55.350
Well, my family lives in Texas, so we weren't allowed
522
00:24:55.350 --> 00:24:57.100
to tell anyone we were coming home.
523
00:24:58.272 --> 00:25:00.070
Why is that?
524
00:25:00.070 --> 00:25:01.520
Operational security.
525
00:25:01.520 --> 00:25:04.030
They told us we're not allowed to tell anyone.
526
00:25:04.030 --> 00:25:06.530
So I show up and I got no family there or anything.
527
00:25:06.530 --> 00:25:08.560
It's kinda nice, 'cause my parents probably wouldn't have
528
00:25:08.560 --> 00:25:09.860
liked what happened there.
529
00:25:11.390 --> 00:25:13.300
I believe it was either our sergeant major
530
00:25:13.300 --> 00:25:17.040
or our battalion commander, one of the two,
531
00:25:17.040 --> 00:25:20.200
basically said, "Hey, welcome home, great job over there.
532
00:25:20.200 --> 00:25:21.830
Don't bother unpacking your bags.
533
00:25:21.830 --> 00:25:24.100
You're getting ready to go to Iraq."
534
00:25:24.100 --> 00:25:28.410
And after about 45 days of being home,
535
00:25:28.410 --> 00:25:31.140
we were back on a plane heading overseas.
536
00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:33.490
And what was your job in Iraq?
537
00:25:33.490 --> 00:25:35.720
Same thing, as an interrogator.
538
00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:37.520
Where?
539
00:25:37.520 --> 00:25:38.353
All over.
540
00:25:39.373 --> 00:25:42.520
We were there, we went there in 2003.
541
00:25:42.520 --> 00:25:44.970
We were there right when the invasion began.
542
00:25:44.970 --> 00:25:46.550
So our unit was kind of split up
543
00:25:46.550 --> 00:25:49.043
and we were kinda moved around all over the country.
544
00:25:49.043 --> 00:25:50.360
Were you at Abu Ghraib too?
545
00:25:50.360 --> 00:25:51.380
Yes, I was at Abu Ghraib.
546
00:25:51.380 --> 00:25:53.853
Were you there when the,
547
00:25:57.355 --> 00:26:00.843
I guess the prison guards were abusing the prisoners?
548
00:26:02.140 --> 00:26:04.340
I know we were there around the same time.
549
00:26:05.737 --> 00:26:07.400
'Cause while we're there I never heard of it,
550
00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:10.400
but I definitely ended up seeing it on AFN or whatever,
551
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:12.223
when it came to light to the public.
552
00:26:14.210 --> 00:26:16.680
But yeah, so I believe it was
553
00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:17.720
at the same time we were there.
554
00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:20.627
I know some of the same people were there.
555
00:26:20.627 --> 00:26:21.460
Did it surprise you
556
00:26:21.460 --> 00:26:23.290
since you had not heard anything about it
557
00:26:23.290 --> 00:26:25.050
and yet you were there?
558
00:26:25.050 --> 00:26:26.100
It definitely did.
559
00:26:26.100 --> 00:26:29.960
And especially, any corridor you walked down in there,
560
00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:31.940
the first thing you'd see is no photography
561
00:26:31.940 --> 00:26:33.920
beyond this point.
Really.
562
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:36.360
And it was every hallway or anything that led
563
00:26:36.360 --> 00:26:38.360
towards where those prisoners were kept.
564
00:26:40.010 --> 00:26:41.820
And you never got charged
565
00:26:41.820 --> 00:26:44.023
for any behavior in Iraq?
566
00:26:45.330 --> 00:26:47.280
Did you get charged for any behavior
567
00:26:47.280 --> 00:26:50.333
you committed in Iraq or it was just Afghanistan.
568
00:26:51.930 --> 00:26:54.110
I got an article 15 in Iraq.
What is that?
569
00:26:54.110 --> 00:26:56.150
That's just a judicial punishment.
570
00:26:56.150 --> 00:26:58.200
It wasn't anything criminal.
571
00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:00.583
Was that from interrogating also?
572
00:27:02.100 --> 00:27:06.490
Was that also coming from the interrogation of someone?
573
00:27:06.490 --> 00:27:08.540
That was non-interrogation on that one.
574
00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:11.663
So when you left the military,
575
00:27:13.001 --> 00:27:15.150
where do you think your life is gonna go forward
576
00:27:15.150 --> 00:27:16.970
if you couldn't get to go to college,
577
00:27:16.970 --> 00:27:18.770
at least outta the GI Bill?
578
00:27:18.770 --> 00:27:20.870
What were you thinking would happen next?
579
00:27:20.870 --> 00:27:22.213
Or what did happen next?
580
00:27:23.820 --> 00:27:26.720
Just getting out basically it was trying to recover
581
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:28.323
from not being able to work.
582
00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:36.160
There was kind of a lull there just trying to find a job.
583
00:27:37.705 --> 00:27:39.210
At that point, I was still trying to recover
584
00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:41.823
from having my appendectomy too.
585
00:27:42.710 --> 00:27:44.823
My body still wasn't back to normal yet.
586
00:27:47.123 --> 00:27:50.350
And then just basically picking up whatever jobs I could.
587
00:27:50.350 --> 00:27:52.600
Did employers say they didn't wanna hire you
588
00:27:52.600 --> 00:27:56.390
because you had a bad conduct discharge about what happened?
589
00:27:56.390 --> 00:27:57.880
Honestly, I never went for any jobs
590
00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:00.130
that looked that far into it.
591
00:28:00.130 --> 00:28:02.600
Being an interrogator is not exactly a skill
592
00:28:02.600 --> 00:28:05.203
that will translate over well to the civilian world.
593
00:28:07.694 --> 00:28:09.594
I did try and look at law enforcement.
594
00:28:10.610 --> 00:28:14.520
Basically because of the assault charge that was a no-go
595
00:28:14.520 --> 00:28:16.033
for at least 10 years.
596
00:28:19.358 --> 00:28:20.520
And I didn't have any college,
597
00:28:20.520 --> 00:28:23.223
so basically it's kinda like starting back over.
598
00:28:24.496 --> 00:28:27.547
I went to go work at Domino's as a delivery driver.
599
00:28:27.547 --> 00:28:28.601
Did you think about going to school
600
00:28:28.601 --> 00:28:29.434
on your own?
601
00:28:29.434 --> 00:28:31.290
Even without a GI Bill.
602
00:28:31.290 --> 00:28:33.550
I thought about it, but you know,
603
00:28:33.550 --> 00:28:36.180
just what little debt I did have from the army,
604
00:28:36.180 --> 00:28:39.000
I mean, it's not something where I could,
605
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:42.053
no real financial assistance to do anything with.
606
00:28:44.750 --> 00:28:47.360
I was more working in the hole when I first got out,
607
00:28:47.360 --> 00:28:49.253
than actually making money.
608
00:28:51.100 --> 00:28:53.703
What was your attitude when you got out?
609
00:28:53.703 --> 00:28:56.600
Would you say you were depressed or angry,
610
00:28:56.600 --> 00:28:59.733
or is it another emotion you can explain?
611
00:29:00.890 --> 00:29:02.040
Definitely depressed.
612
00:29:04.600 --> 00:29:06.420
I felt betrayed.
613
00:29:06.420 --> 00:29:08.040
By whom?
614
00:29:08.040 --> 00:29:09.603
Basically by my government.
615
00:29:10.670 --> 00:29:13.310
By the way we were treated with everything.
616
00:29:13.310 --> 00:29:16.113
And the way they just kind of toss you out after that.
617
00:29:17.190 --> 00:29:20.830
I mean, I was stationed in Fort Bragg.
618
00:29:20.830 --> 00:29:23.573
They had my court martial in El Paso.
619
00:29:25.090 --> 00:29:27.433
Sent me to jail in Seattle.
620
00:29:28.370 --> 00:29:31.490
And basically when my time's over,
621
00:29:31.490 --> 00:29:35.260
there's like a, here's a bus ticket home and like $50.
622
00:29:35.260 --> 00:29:36.873
I forget exactly what it was.
623
00:29:37.938 --> 00:29:38.771
I'm like, oh, yeah.
624
00:29:38.771 --> 00:29:41.613
So I got a two-week bus ride and 50 bucks.
625
00:29:42.520 --> 00:29:43.353
Thank you.
626
00:29:44.700 --> 00:29:47.560
And you felt the army didn't look after you
627
00:29:47.560 --> 00:29:50.797
when you did the work for them over those four years,
628
00:29:50.797 --> 00:29:53.350
is that what you're saying?
629
00:29:53.350 --> 00:29:57.370
They never, you know, it was kinda, hey,
630
00:29:57.370 --> 00:30:00.293
especially in my situation, it was that,
631
00:30:01.300 --> 00:30:04.170
getting sent to Seattle.
632
00:30:04.170 --> 00:30:06.300
Getting locked up for two months.
633
00:30:06.300 --> 00:30:07.147
And then like I said, it's like,
634
00:30:07.147 --> 00:30:08.847
"Here's your bus ticket, goodbye."
635
00:30:10.860 --> 00:30:12.663
So that was the betrayal.
636
00:30:14.770 --> 00:30:17.030
And how was your family?
637
00:30:17.030 --> 00:30:18.320
Was your family there to greet you?
638
00:30:18.320 --> 00:30:19.670
Was your family supportive?
639
00:30:20.700 --> 00:30:22.853
Oh, my family is very supportive of me.
640
00:30:25.170 --> 00:30:28.060
Even my parents sat in on the court martial and everything.
641
00:30:28.060 --> 00:30:31.393
And they were not happy about.
642
00:30:32.430 --> 00:30:35.350
A lot of it you could tell it was a witch hunt.
643
00:30:35.350 --> 00:30:37.583
A lot of it was because of Abu Ghraib.
644
00:30:41.550 --> 00:30:44.163
I mean, everybody that's lower enlisted,
645
00:30:45.580 --> 00:30:48.314
everything rolls downhill as they say.
646
00:30:48.314 --> 00:30:51.720
And definitely didn't splash anywhere higher than us.
647
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:54.790
You know, the people that were telling us to do it
648
00:30:54.790 --> 00:30:59.023
stayed in the military, advanced their careers.
649
00:31:01.550 --> 00:31:04.510
I'm sure they didn't have any second thoughts about us.
650
00:31:04.510 --> 00:31:05.523
You ever point your finger
651
00:31:05.523 --> 00:31:07.430
at the people above you as-
652
00:31:07.430 --> 00:31:10.210
I was called to a federal grand jury hearing
653
00:31:10.210 --> 00:31:12.630
where I was more than happy
654
00:31:12.630 --> 00:31:15.543
to lead them in the right direction.
655
00:31:16.610 --> 00:31:17.930
Did you?
656
00:31:17.930 --> 00:31:18.920
Did you lead 'em?
657
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:20.270
And did it make a difference?
658
00:31:20.270 --> 00:31:22.763
No, they never pursued anything further.
659
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:26.513
Do you think that's true
660
00:31:26.513 --> 00:31:29.450
for your colleagues too that they were all just
661
00:31:29.450 --> 00:31:32.270
at the bottom of the rung and they were the ones
662
00:31:32.270 --> 00:31:36.040
who paid the price for all that went on.
663
00:31:36.040 --> 00:31:37.760
That's the way I definitely feel
664
00:31:37.760 --> 00:31:39.150
as far as anything that happened
665
00:31:39.150 --> 00:31:42.273
to any of the other interrogators in my unit.
666
00:31:46.120 --> 00:31:47.280
The people who gave you orders
667
00:31:47.280 --> 00:31:48.700
did they ever apologize to you?
668
00:31:48.700 --> 00:31:49.533
Did they ever say anything to you?
669
00:31:49.533 --> 00:31:51.477
Like, sorry you got stuck in this
670
00:31:51.477 --> 00:31:53.520
or did they just ignore you after that?
671
00:31:53.520 --> 00:31:57.530
No, a lot of 'em, especially being the timeframe
672
00:31:57.530 --> 00:31:59.220
that everything happened,
673
00:31:59.220 --> 00:32:01.100
they had already moved on to other places.
674
00:32:01.100 --> 00:32:04.320
So, I'm sure we were just in the rear view,
675
00:32:04.320 --> 00:32:05.483
if anything else.
676
00:32:08.806 --> 00:32:09.639
Do you have any regrets
677
00:32:09.639 --> 00:32:13.287
about joining the military after this story?
678
00:32:13.287 --> 00:32:17.360
Oh, definitely, it's something I always wanted to do.
679
00:32:17.360 --> 00:32:20.770
I wanted to do it for the college, get out on my own.
680
00:32:20.770 --> 00:32:22.653
After the way everything worked out,
681
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:26.823
I don't know, other than the friends I made,
682
00:32:28.500 --> 00:32:31.673
I mean if I could go back, I'd be like, you know what? No.
683
00:32:32.845 --> 00:32:34.410
Either that I would have lost some more weight,
684
00:32:34.410 --> 00:32:37.453
so I could join the Air Force and avoided the whole thing.
685
00:32:42.030 --> 00:32:45.190
And how's your life going now, Glen?
686
00:32:45.190 --> 00:32:48.060
Were you able to get better jobs over time?
687
00:32:48.060 --> 00:32:50.493
I was able to get better jobs over time.
688
00:32:51.800 --> 00:32:53.410
While I was doing the delivery thing,
689
00:32:53.410 --> 00:32:56.223
I eventually got set up.
690
00:32:57.150 --> 00:32:59.440
Goodwill has a great program.
691
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:01.230
It's kind of like a technical school.
692
00:33:01.230 --> 00:33:03.063
So I went and did computer repair.
693
00:33:04.300 --> 00:33:07.810
Then I got a job at a call center
694
00:33:07.810 --> 00:33:09.670
and that was doing tech support
695
00:33:09.670 --> 00:33:13.967
for one of the big companies for their cable service
696
00:33:16.600 --> 00:33:18.570
and internet service,
697
00:33:18.570 --> 00:33:20.723
where I eventually made it to supervisor.
698
00:33:21.628 --> 00:33:23.670
Is that where you are today?
699
00:33:23.670 --> 00:33:26.460
Actually, just got fired from that job.
700
00:33:26.460 --> 00:33:27.643
Can you tell us why?
701
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:32.150
I really don't wanna get into that one. (chuckles)
702
00:33:32.150 --> 00:33:36.830
So, do you see your career advancing now?
703
00:33:36.830 --> 00:33:38.630
Will you be able to get another job?
704
00:33:39.850 --> 00:33:43.290
What I've noticed is a lotta places,
705
00:33:43.290 --> 00:33:47.093
especially since the incident was 2002,
706
00:33:48.560 --> 00:33:51.783
most people don't even, they won't look at it.
707
00:33:51.783 --> 00:33:53.340
A lot of the times I just avoid putting
708
00:33:53.340 --> 00:33:56.100
any kind of military on there.
709
00:33:56.100 --> 00:33:58.550
That way they don't have to ask about my records.
710
00:33:59.470 --> 00:34:03.140
I'll list I'm a veteran, but if they want like a DD 214,
711
00:34:03.140 --> 00:34:05.833
I just don't even pursue it at that point.
712
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.757
'Cause it's pretty much a, "Hey, you're done in the water."
713
00:34:11.970 --> 00:34:16.080
I mean, do you think,
714
00:34:16.080 --> 00:34:21.080
do you think any of your colleagues committed serious crimes
715
00:34:21.380 --> 00:34:23.370
or do you think all of this is really
716
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:27.363
the supervisory personnel who should be blamed?
717
00:34:28.750 --> 00:34:31.600
Looking back, what do you really think went on back then?
718
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:34.360
I mean, I wouldn't be surprised
719
00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:37.090
if people were doing things they weren't supposed to.
720
00:34:37.090 --> 00:34:38.840
I mean, people were always talking.
721
00:34:40.084 --> 00:34:41.934
Like I said, it was all rumors to me.
722
00:34:44.230 --> 00:34:46.513
There are people that I know that walked.
723
00:34:48.230 --> 00:34:51.550
Like the one I don't, I hate to point anybody out
724
00:34:51.550 --> 00:34:56.550
or anything, but people that went on trial.
725
00:34:58.460 --> 00:35:00.750
'Cause I know a bunch of us took deals
726
00:35:00.750 --> 00:35:04.300
and there were some that took deals that I know were,
727
00:35:04.300 --> 00:35:06.090
they did some things.
728
00:35:06.090 --> 00:35:08.840
I could tell just because we are interrogators
729
00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:11.880
and it's kind of hard to lie to one another.
730
00:35:11.880 --> 00:35:15.073
But again, like I said, it was rumors that I never saw.
731
00:35:16.980 --> 00:35:18.610
I mean, it's funny,
732
00:35:18.610 --> 00:35:22.210
did you keep to yourself when in at night
733
00:35:22.210 --> 00:35:23.830
and so it was just rumors
734
00:35:23.830 --> 00:35:27.020
that you were somehow removed from a lot of it?
735
00:35:27.020 --> 00:35:28.690
Because certainly what people read,
736
00:35:28.690 --> 00:35:30.443
there was a lot going on.
737
00:35:32.120 --> 00:35:33.780
Especially Afghanistan, I went there
738
00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:35.293
as part of an augment group.
739
00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:39.970
The core group of people had been there the whole time.
740
00:35:39.970 --> 00:35:41.930
I was still fairly new to the unit.
741
00:35:41.930 --> 00:35:44.473
So I didn't really, you know.
742
00:35:45.790 --> 00:35:49.200
Outta that whole group, I actually don't think
743
00:35:49.200 --> 00:35:50.263
I knew anyone.
744
00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:54.660
There was one that I knew, but he was working in a separate,
745
00:35:54.660 --> 00:35:59.650
he was over in Kurdistan whatever, yeah, Kurdistan.
746
00:36:01.490 --> 00:36:04.300
Uzbekistan, he was over in Uzbekistan.
747
00:36:04.300 --> 00:36:06.590
So he got sent over to a different country while I'm there
748
00:36:06.590 --> 00:36:09.390
and that was the only person I truly knew at the time.
749
00:36:09.390 --> 00:36:13.103
So I was kinda the outsider when I got there.
750
00:36:14.270 --> 00:36:16.930
So from your outside perspective,
751
00:36:16.930 --> 00:36:21.240
did it seem because you were told everything was acceptable,
752
00:36:21.240 --> 00:36:22.390
did it seem acceptable to you?
753
00:36:22.390 --> 00:36:25.010
You just didn't question it.
754
00:36:25.010 --> 00:36:27.380
I really didn't question it.
755
00:36:27.380 --> 00:36:32.380
They did briefings like during our shift change,
756
00:36:32.470 --> 00:36:34.120
where we'd go over different things.
757
00:36:34.120 --> 00:36:36.890
And I mean, everybody was there hearing the same thing.
758
00:36:36.890 --> 00:36:41.450
So I mean, if I'm the lowest ranking, newest guy to the unit
759
00:36:41.450 --> 00:36:43.710
and nobody else is here questioning anything,
760
00:36:43.710 --> 00:36:47.100
I'm just sorta kinda gonna go with it.
761
00:36:47.100 --> 00:36:48.247
If I had went in there and they said,
762
00:36:48.247 --> 00:36:50.020
"Oh, go punch this guy in the nose."
763
00:36:50.020 --> 00:36:52.387
Then of course I'm gonna be like,
764
00:36:52.387 --> 00:36:54.450
"No, that's not what we're supposed to do here."
765
00:36:54.450 --> 00:36:57.650
But there was never any kinda
766
00:36:57.650 --> 00:36:59.323
clear guidelines really given.
767
00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:04.370
Did you see people taking drugs
768
00:37:04.370 --> 00:37:05.850
during those times?
769
00:37:05.850 --> 00:37:08.280
I never saw anyone taking drugs, no.
770
00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:10.170
Was there heavy drinking?
771
00:37:10.170 --> 00:37:12.323
I know there was some drinking going on.
772
00:37:14.350 --> 00:37:16.750
I'd lie if I said I didn't on my own birthday
773
00:37:16.750 --> 00:37:18.270
while I was out there have a couple drinks
774
00:37:18.270 --> 00:37:20.850
that somehow made it to our camp.
775
00:37:25.176 --> 00:37:26.310
I mean, it doesn't sound like
776
00:37:26.310 --> 00:37:27.510
you were one of the good old boys.
777
00:37:27.510 --> 00:37:29.167
Sounds like you were really separate from them.
778
00:37:29.167 --> 00:37:32.110
And I wonder, how many people were you sent with
779
00:37:32.110 --> 00:37:33.330
in your augment group?
780
00:37:33.330 --> 00:37:35.510
How many others were there?
781
00:37:39.234 --> 00:37:42.612
I think maybe about 10 at the most.
782
00:37:42.612 --> 00:37:44.031
And you didn't hang out with them either,
783
00:37:44.031 --> 00:37:47.077
or they didn't, you know?
784
00:37:47.077 --> 00:37:50.030
No, a lot of them I believe were married at the time.
785
00:37:50.030 --> 00:37:51.750
So they weren't even staying in the barracks
786
00:37:51.750 --> 00:37:52.990
when we were together.
787
00:37:52.990 --> 00:37:54.960
Their wives could come to Afghanistan?
788
00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:58.810
Well no, I mean, before we went overseas.
789
00:37:58.810 --> 00:38:01.290
So the only time I really had any alone time with them
790
00:38:01.290 --> 00:38:03.303
or whatever, was traveling over there.
791
00:38:04.160 --> 00:38:05.300
And then when you were over there
792
00:38:05.300 --> 00:38:06.860
wouldn't you have a alone time with them
793
00:38:06.860 --> 00:38:08.560
because they didn't have their wives
794
00:38:08.560 --> 00:38:10.730
and they would be the augmented group?
795
00:38:10.730 --> 00:38:13.580
Well, you know, they all still knew each other.
796
00:38:13.580 --> 00:38:16.030
Like I said, I was still the new guy to the unit.
797
00:38:19.522 --> 00:38:20.440
Would you recommend other people
798
00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:22.030
go into a military today?
799
00:38:22.030 --> 00:38:23.810
Not anymore.
Really.
800
00:38:23.810 --> 00:38:25.310
Why wouldn't you recommend it?
801
00:38:26.464 --> 00:38:28.510
It's just not worth it.
802
00:38:28.510 --> 00:38:29.950
I mean, they're gonna put you over there
803
00:38:29.950 --> 00:38:34.373
and it's to me, I know the way I've been treated.
804
00:38:36.144 --> 00:38:39.330
The last thing I'd hate is for somebody I recommend
805
00:38:39.330 --> 00:38:42.710
to join the military to go there, get sent off to war
806
00:38:42.710 --> 00:38:45.593
and then get tossed out like I did.
807
00:38:46.940 --> 00:38:49.313
I would hate to put somebody through that knowingly.
808
00:38:50.590 --> 00:38:52.930
And you think because of Abu Ghraib,
809
00:38:52.930 --> 00:38:55.440
you kind of said earlier, I just want to have that on film,
810
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:57.840
because of Abu Ghraib, is that why the military came back
811
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:00.060
and looked at your unit
812
00:39:00.060 --> 00:39:04.550
and that's why you became victimized, if you will, for that?
813
00:39:04.550 --> 00:39:05.700
That's how you see it?
814
00:39:05.700 --> 00:39:06.533
Right.
815
00:39:08.640 --> 00:39:12.100
Did you know interrogators in Abu Ghraib
816
00:39:12.100 --> 00:39:14.450
who would have been aware of what was going on?
817
00:39:15.685 --> 00:39:17.533
No, not there, no.
818
00:39:20.037 --> 00:39:22.480
I've seen the pictures that were released.
819
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:26.190
I've even seen pictures that weren't released to the public,
820
00:39:26.190 --> 00:39:27.723
at least I don't believe were.
821
00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:31.360
And there was never an interrogator that I knew
822
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:33.770
that I saw on any of those pictures.
823
00:39:33.770 --> 00:39:34.953
That was all MPs.
824
00:39:36.670 --> 00:39:40.110
And being in interrogation field's very, very small.
825
00:39:40.110 --> 00:39:42.200
If I didn't know 'em, then you know,
826
00:39:42.200 --> 00:39:44.260
my colleagues would know 'em.
827
00:39:44.260 --> 00:39:47.580
And when you looked at those pictures,
828
00:39:47.580 --> 00:39:51.250
we knew that wasn't interrogators involved in that.
829
00:39:51.250 --> 00:39:52.310
Do you think that was
830
00:39:52.310 --> 00:39:53.890
from the top-down also?
831
00:39:53.890 --> 00:39:57.023
Do you think those MPs were instructed by someone else?
832
00:39:59.340 --> 00:40:03.310
I would say no, only because it was clearly posted
833
00:40:03.310 --> 00:40:05.150
not to take pictures.
834
00:40:05.150 --> 00:40:06.393
That was everywhere.
835
00:40:07.870 --> 00:40:10.160
Any corridor, like I said, you went down you would see that.
836
00:40:10.160 --> 00:40:11.993
No photography beyond this point.
837
00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:15.717
Was that true in Afghanistan, in Bagram?
838
00:40:15.717 --> 00:40:18.033
In Bagram it was very controlled.
839
00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:21.560
You had to get through like a little checkpoint
840
00:40:21.560 --> 00:40:24.080
at the beginning before you could ever go in.
841
00:40:24.080 --> 00:40:26.580
And the only cameras I ever saw there
842
00:40:26.580 --> 00:40:29.683
were ones we had for initial screening.
843
00:40:30.740 --> 00:40:32.720
So I never saw anybody with cameras there.
844
00:40:32.720 --> 00:40:34.110
I don't even think digital cameras
845
00:40:34.110 --> 00:40:35.743
were that popular at that point.
846
00:40:36.626 --> 00:40:38.700
But in 2003 at Abu Ghraib
847
00:40:38.700 --> 00:40:41.540
there were all these signs saying no photos
848
00:40:41.540 --> 00:40:43.520
and why would there be signs that said no photos?
849
00:40:43.520 --> 00:40:46.230
What would be the purpose of those signs?
850
00:40:46.230 --> 00:40:48.750
Who were they, what were they, I mean, if there-
851
00:40:48.750 --> 00:40:50.620
As far as I know, maybe they were posted
852
00:40:50.620 --> 00:40:53.013
after they'd caught these MPs doing that.
853
00:40:54.090 --> 00:40:56.030
'Cause I'd never seen those anywhere else
854
00:40:56.030 --> 00:40:59.103
that we had a collection point set up.
855
00:41:00.750 --> 00:41:03.410
In Afghanistan, I never saw a no photography sign,
856
00:41:03.410 --> 00:41:04.303
I don't believe.
857
00:41:05.340 --> 00:41:07.680
Unless it was something more related towards the press
858
00:41:07.680 --> 00:41:08.580
or something like that.
859
00:41:08.580 --> 00:41:10.420
But these ones were clearly
860
00:41:10.420 --> 00:41:12.277
not made for press at Abu Ghraib.
861
00:41:13.907 --> 00:41:15.168
Did you ever go to Kandahar?
862
00:41:15.168 --> 00:41:16.190
Did you ever work in Kandahar?
863
00:41:16.190 --> 00:41:17.720
I never got the chance.
864
00:41:17.720 --> 00:41:19.370
I was at Bagram the whole time.
865
00:41:19.370 --> 00:41:23.270
And after Iraq, where'd you go next?
866
00:41:23.270 --> 00:41:27.070
After Iraq, it was back at Bragg for the rest of the time.
867
00:41:27.070 --> 00:41:29.790
And at that time, when you said they did bring charges
868
00:41:29.790 --> 00:41:32.140
and then dropped them, did you fear that maybe
869
00:41:32.140 --> 00:41:33.840
they would bring them again?
870
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:36.230
Or did you have any concerns at all?
871
00:41:36.230 --> 00:41:39.330
Honestly, I thought once they look into and it's done,
872
00:41:39.330 --> 00:41:40.687
I thought it was done.
873
00:41:40.687 --> 00:41:43.190
I was like, "All right, they looked into it.
874
00:41:43.190 --> 00:41:45.840
They saw that, hey, I didn't do anything out of line.
875
00:41:48.380 --> 00:41:49.407
I'm gonna be good."
876
00:41:50.396 --> 00:41:52.596
And then when it came up again, it was like,
877
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:57.700
again I was just kinda like, "What's going on here.
878
00:41:57.700 --> 00:41:59.770
We've already been cleared."
879
00:41:59.770 --> 00:42:01.990
And then actually, I'd gotten word
880
00:42:01.990 --> 00:42:05.300
from somebody I knew that worked there the third time
881
00:42:05.300 --> 00:42:08.195
when they were actually gonna bring up charges,
882
00:42:08.195 --> 00:42:09.630
I was at home on leave.
883
00:42:09.630 --> 00:42:11.820
I was at home visiting my family.
884
00:42:11.820 --> 00:42:15.100
And they kinda called me, I mean, it wasn't official channel
885
00:42:15.100 --> 00:42:16.410
but they worked around it.
886
00:42:16.410 --> 00:42:20.870
So they kind of said, "Hey, this just came in.
887
00:42:20.870 --> 00:42:23.480
They're gonna put you on trial for this."
888
00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:25.680
And like I'm at home on leave
889
00:42:25.680 --> 00:42:28.360
and my heart just hit the floor.
890
00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:32.050
I'm like, you know, I couldn't believe what was happening.
891
00:42:32.050 --> 00:42:35.692
It was, I don't know.
892
00:42:35.692 --> 00:42:37.360
I don't even know how to put it.
893
00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:40.930
And did you have a lawyer at that point
894
00:42:40.930 --> 00:42:42.023
or did your parents help you get a lawyer?
895
00:42:42.023 --> 00:42:43.370
How did that work?
896
00:42:43.370 --> 00:42:44.203
No.
897
00:42:46.740 --> 00:42:49.400
I mean, I didn't have money to get my own lawyer, so.
898
00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:51.640
Used a military lawyer?
899
00:42:51.640 --> 00:42:54.380
And what'd your parents say?
900
00:42:54.380 --> 00:42:56.432
Did you tell them when you were home
901
00:42:56.432 --> 00:42:58.083
after you just got charged?
902
00:42:59.390 --> 00:43:01.373
I didn't when I was there at home.
903
00:43:02.380 --> 00:43:05.270
I didn't want them to worry about that when I was there.
904
00:43:05.270 --> 00:43:07.530
I wanted to make sure that it was true when I got back
905
00:43:07.530 --> 00:43:08.930
before I ever brought it up.
906
00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:12.140
And did your lawyer confirm
907
00:43:12.140 --> 00:43:15.330
what you told us that he also or she also thought
908
00:43:15.330 --> 00:43:17.260
that it was because of Abu Ghraib,
909
00:43:17.260 --> 00:43:18.660
the fallout from Abu Ghraib?
910
00:43:19.780 --> 00:43:23.710
No, they never really talked that much about it.
911
00:43:23.710 --> 00:43:24.950
You think you were,
912
00:43:24.950 --> 00:43:26.267
your mistake to have pled?
913
00:43:26.267 --> 00:43:28.560
Do you think you should've gone to trial?
914
00:43:28.560 --> 00:43:31.080
I definitely think I shoulda gone to trial.
915
00:43:31.080 --> 00:43:32.080
Why?
916
00:43:34.200 --> 00:43:38.730
'Cause after mine, I went back for one of my friends
917
00:43:38.730 --> 00:43:40.330
when they had their court martial.
918
00:43:40.330 --> 00:43:43.080
And when I looked at the jury of the peers,
919
00:43:43.080 --> 00:43:45.940
and if I had told my story to them
920
00:43:45.940 --> 00:43:47.230
and put it in their hands,
921
00:43:47.230 --> 00:43:52.043
there's no way that, I woulda just walked out of there.
922
00:43:54.280 --> 00:43:55.650
Just went right back to my job
923
00:43:55.650 --> 00:43:58.050
where I coulda started clearing out and go home.
924
00:44:00.260 --> 00:44:03.490
And your story is what you told us?
925
00:44:03.490 --> 00:44:05.740
Basically just grabbing the guy by the shirt.
926
00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:10.610
It's all official records.
927
00:44:10.610 --> 00:44:12.260
I don't know how open it is, but.
928
00:44:13.210 --> 00:44:15.330
And the person who died in Afghanistan,
929
00:44:15.330 --> 00:44:16.860
were you involved with him at all?
930
00:44:16.860 --> 00:44:18.610
No.
You never met him.
931
00:44:18.610 --> 00:44:22.307
Had you ever met Omar Khadr while you were in Bagram?
932
00:44:24.470 --> 00:44:25.823
Don't believe so.
933
00:44:28.170 --> 00:44:30.150
I don't know a lot of that, I forget names.
934
00:44:30.150 --> 00:44:31.420
He was a juvenile.
935
00:44:31.420 --> 00:44:36.420
He was a young kid who had been shot by the military.
936
00:44:37.830 --> 00:44:39.140
They called him Buckshot,
937
00:44:39.140 --> 00:44:40.421
I believe.
Yeah.
938
00:44:40.421 --> 00:44:41.920
He had gotten shot in the-
939
00:44:41.920 --> 00:44:44.233
In the eye and also in the back.
940
00:44:45.120 --> 00:44:45.953
I had heard of him.
941
00:44:45.953 --> 00:44:47.943
I'd never spoken with him myself.
942
00:44:49.990 --> 00:44:51.770
Of course, everybody kind of talked about him
943
00:44:51.770 --> 00:44:53.063
because of his story.
944
00:44:54.110 --> 00:44:59.110
As far as I know that basically they came to take him,
945
00:45:01.040 --> 00:45:04.093
and of course he got shot with the buckshot.
946
00:45:06.093 --> 00:45:08.743
What else, I believe it was him was they told me that
947
00:45:10.100 --> 00:45:14.023
he had tossed a grenade that had killed one of the medics.
948
00:45:17.282 --> 00:45:18.640
And the only other thing I heard
949
00:45:18.640 --> 00:45:21.403
that he had Canadian citizenship as well.
950
00:45:22.420 --> 00:45:25.140
But I never personally talked to him.
951
00:45:25.140 --> 00:45:29.600
Again, that was just everybody else was talking about him.
952
00:45:29.600 --> 00:45:31.410
He was definitely the youngest.
953
00:45:31.410 --> 00:45:33.320
That's what made it stick out.
954
00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:34.153
Why do you know he was
955
00:45:34.153 --> 00:45:35.210
definitely the youngest?
956
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:37.540
Just his age.
957
00:45:37.540 --> 00:45:39.993
Like you never saw anybody smaller than him.
958
00:45:41.651 --> 00:45:42.484
Did you have any sympathy
959
00:45:42.484 --> 00:45:44.790
for the detainees at any point?
960
00:45:44.790 --> 00:45:49.790
Or did you, I mean, I know that many military officials
961
00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:53.683
and interrogators probably, and even the prison guards,
962
00:45:54.920 --> 00:45:58.470
didn't treat them with humanity, or didn't see 'em as that
963
00:45:58.470 --> 00:46:00.240
because you can't abet the enemy.
964
00:46:00.240 --> 00:46:02.460
Is that how you saw it, or is that,
965
00:46:02.460 --> 00:46:04.473
what was your sense of the men?
966
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:06.953
I just saw them as people.
967
00:46:08.350 --> 00:46:10.320
A lot of our interactions we had to,
968
00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:13.130
especially being lowest rank,
969
00:46:13.130 --> 00:46:15.410
was I had to help bring in the local workers
970
00:46:15.410 --> 00:46:17.440
that were working on the roof of the building.
971
00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:20.880
So I was used to interacting with them outside of the prison
972
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:23.023
and inside of it as well.
973
00:46:24.510 --> 00:46:26.733
So I never once looked and you know.
974
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:29.950
I can tell you another prisoner we had.
975
00:46:31.880 --> 00:46:34.310
He was assigned to me at first until I told them
976
00:46:34.310 --> 00:46:36.393
I'm not talking to him anymore basically.
977
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:41.093
They told me, "Oh, he's acting mentally challenged.
978
00:46:43.319 --> 00:46:46.680
That's an Al-Qaeda ploy to throw you off."
979
00:46:46.680 --> 00:46:50.740
And after talking to this guy like three times
980
00:46:52.250 --> 00:46:54.230
and he made some very questionable moves
981
00:46:54.230 --> 00:46:59.230
that are not sanitary at all, but I determined that he was,
982
00:46:59.410 --> 00:47:00.550
you know, mentally challenged.
983
00:47:00.550 --> 00:47:03.680
Like this guy, he's not hiding anything.
984
00:47:03.680 --> 00:47:05.713
There's nothing to hide, like that's it.
985
00:47:08.240 --> 00:47:10.400
And I felt so bad 'cause they passed him along
986
00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:12.260
to so many other people just trying to get him
987
00:47:12.260 --> 00:47:14.350
to talk about something.
988
00:47:14.350 --> 00:47:17.383
And I know one of the other,
989
00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:20.720
one of the other detainees that was in there
990
00:47:20.720 --> 00:47:25.720
basically told us that, "Hey, he went to, he went,"
991
00:47:25.830 --> 00:47:27.400
'cause I guess they had like a bathroom,
992
00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:30.200
which was kind of like a cutoff oil barrel.
993
00:47:30.200 --> 00:47:31.460
And basically he jumped in there
994
00:47:31.460 --> 00:47:33.560
and kind of splashed around with his feet.
995
00:47:34.890 --> 00:47:37.000
Saying if he was acting that was really good acting.
996
00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:41.820
But no, that guy was, he wasn't supposed to be there.
997
00:47:41.820 --> 00:47:43.960
As far as I know, he got sent back off
998
00:47:43.960 --> 00:47:44.970
to wherever they found him.
999
00:47:44.970 --> 00:47:48.147
But that was one I felt bad 'cause I'm like,
1000
00:47:48.147 --> 00:47:51.280
"This kid is just like going through the wringer,"
1001
00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:54.330
when he was going through this for Lord knows how long,
1002
00:47:54.330 --> 00:47:56.880
before somebody is finally gonna spit him back out.
1003
00:47:59.630 --> 00:48:01.560
And no one listened to you
1004
00:48:01.560 --> 00:48:04.390
when you said this person is-
1005
00:48:04.390 --> 00:48:05.223
Basically, they're like,
1006
00:48:05.223 --> 00:48:07.027
"Well, we're gonna get another opinion."
1007
00:48:08.640 --> 00:48:09.603
And what were you thinking about that?
1008
00:48:09.603 --> 00:48:11.720
Did you just figure, well, you're doing your job
1009
00:48:11.720 --> 00:48:14.488
and you just can't question it?
1010
00:48:14.488 --> 00:48:18.160
Yeah, I mean, I gave 'em my recommendation.
1011
00:48:18.160 --> 00:48:20.900
It's kind of out of my hands at that point.
1012
00:48:20.900 --> 00:48:23.650
They made it clear that I didn't have any power before.
1013
00:48:24.538 --> 00:48:25.770
Did you begin to change your mind
1014
00:48:25.770 --> 00:48:28.630
about who these "terrorists," quote, were
1015
00:48:29.640 --> 00:48:31.433
after working through this or?
1016
00:48:32.900 --> 00:48:36.290
Not necessarily that way, but definitely questioned
1017
00:48:36.290 --> 00:48:39.040
my ability to wanna do the job.
1018
00:48:39.040 --> 00:48:42.990
Like after the first time,
1019
00:48:42.990 --> 00:48:45.080
when they had the CID guys come in-
1020
00:48:45.080 --> 00:48:46.313
CID?
When they were.
1021
00:48:46.313 --> 00:48:48.663
It's the criminal investigations.
1022
00:48:49.990 --> 00:48:51.700
Basically they're like internal affairs,
1023
00:48:51.700 --> 00:48:53.653
but they're for the military.
1024
00:48:54.710 --> 00:48:57.290
They come in and start questioning us about it.
1025
00:48:57.290 --> 00:49:00.573
And I had myself removed from interrogation at that point.
1026
00:49:02.660 --> 00:49:04.910
Basically they just took me out of there
1027
00:49:04.910 --> 00:49:07.490
to where I didn't have to work in that center anymore.
1028
00:49:07.490 --> 00:49:10.350
Why'd you ask to be removed?
1029
00:49:10.350 --> 00:49:12.490
Because I felt like the only reason why
1030
00:49:13.415 --> 00:49:14.900
I would be even looked at for this
1031
00:49:14.900 --> 00:49:18.320
is because they weren't happy with the job I was doing
1032
00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:20.910
and trying to tell me, I need to be rougher with people,
1033
00:49:20.910 --> 00:49:21.743
that kinda thing.
1034
00:49:21.743 --> 00:49:24.830
So, I just didn't wanna be part of it.
1035
00:49:24.830 --> 00:49:27.050
Where'd they put you?
1036
00:49:27.050 --> 00:49:29.493
They put me in working like the front gate.
1037
00:49:30.986 --> 00:49:33.860
What we were doing was just screening the local workers.
1038
00:49:33.860 --> 00:49:35.547
Just kind of getting a feel for them saying,
1039
00:49:35.547 --> 00:49:37.867
"Oh, hire this guy, don't hire this one."
1040
00:49:39.330 --> 00:49:40.340
Did other interrogators
1041
00:49:40.340 --> 00:49:43.450
that you knew also have problems
1042
00:49:43.450 --> 00:49:46.479
in terms of being stricter or harder on the detainees.
1043
00:49:46.479 --> 00:49:49.200
like you, like you described yourself?
1044
00:49:49.200 --> 00:49:50.370
We definitely had one.
1045
00:49:50.370 --> 00:49:53.330
Like, I don't wanna say his name or anything on camera,
1046
00:49:53.330 --> 00:49:57.930
but he's a very religious guy.
1047
00:49:57.930 --> 00:50:00.860
And when we got there, he's like, "I don't wanna do it."
1048
00:50:00.860 --> 00:50:04.140
And I know that he did go in on interrogations
1049
00:50:04.140 --> 00:50:07.770
at some point, but it was more like in a computer aspect
1050
00:50:07.770 --> 00:50:09.390
when he's asking questions about things
1051
00:50:09.390 --> 00:50:11.150
they might have found on computers or whatever.
1052
00:50:11.150 --> 00:50:15.270
But he didn't wanna do it after we got there.
1053
00:50:15.270 --> 00:50:17.280
And I don't blame him.
1054
00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:18.113
Hmm.
1055
00:50:21.990 --> 00:50:24.500
Do you have conversations, did you see a therapist
1056
00:50:24.500 --> 00:50:26.451
when you got out, or have conversations with people
1057
00:50:26.451 --> 00:50:29.100
about what you experienced?
1058
00:50:29.100 --> 00:50:33.863
No, there was nothing I could afford on my own.
1059
00:50:34.810 --> 00:50:38.300
The first job I got out, when I got out
1060
00:50:38.300 --> 00:50:40.720
was as a delivery driver for pizza company.
1061
00:50:40.720 --> 00:50:44.380
So they weren't quite offering insurance
1062
00:50:44.380 --> 00:50:45.923
or anything for that position.
1063
00:50:49.010 --> 00:50:53.350
VA never contacted me or nothing like that for the military.
1064
00:50:53.350 --> 00:50:55.630
Basically it's like, hey, you got your discharge.
1065
00:50:55.630 --> 00:50:56.970
You're done.
1066
00:50:56.970 --> 00:50:58.297
Well, what about when you got a better job
1067
00:50:58.297 --> 00:51:00.053
and you did get medical insurance?
1068
00:51:01.410 --> 00:51:03.313
You think about having therapy then?
1069
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:07.060
By the time I finally got insurance
1070
00:51:07.060 --> 00:51:12.060
was probably about three years ago in 2012.
1071
00:51:12.890 --> 00:51:14.490
And by that point there's a lotta stuff
1072
00:51:14.490 --> 00:51:16.390
I just don't wanna talk about anymore.
1073
00:51:19.470 --> 00:51:22.110
It's just, at this point,
1074
00:51:22.110 --> 00:51:24.200
it's been 10 years since the incident
1075
00:51:24.200 --> 00:51:29.200
and I've kinda found ways to cope with it myself, I guess.
1076
00:51:31.170 --> 00:51:33.210
Probably wouldn't turn it down if it was offered.
1077
00:51:33.210 --> 00:51:38.210
But, but I mean, I don't know.
1078
00:51:38.410 --> 00:51:39.993
It's a difficult situation.
1079
00:51:40.860 --> 00:51:42.329
Could you talk to your parents about,
1080
00:51:42.329 --> 00:51:45.310
or they didn't really try to talk about it?
1081
00:51:45.310 --> 00:51:48.500
I could, it's something I probably don't wanna
1082
00:51:48.500 --> 00:51:50.760
talk to my parents about.
1083
00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:53.110
I mean, I have good friends from when I was in,
1084
00:51:54.380 --> 00:51:55.470
we were all there together.
1085
00:51:55.470 --> 00:51:58.200
So at least if I need to blow off steam
1086
00:51:58.200 --> 00:51:59.523
I can talk to those guys.
1087
00:52:02.440 --> 00:52:03.790
How about your childhood friends,
1088
00:52:03.790 --> 00:52:05.703
you still friendly with anyone?
1089
00:52:05.703 --> 00:52:08.103
I've still got a few friends from high school.
1090
00:52:10.820 --> 00:52:13.743
But you know, they're all kinda doing their thing.
1091
00:52:15.396 --> 00:52:16.229
So what's your next step?
1092
00:52:16.229 --> 00:52:18.460
Are you gonna stay in San Antonio and look for work,
1093
00:52:18.460 --> 00:52:20.560
or how do you see your life going forward?
1094
00:52:21.560 --> 00:52:25.368
Definitely be in San Antonio, trying to get another job.
1095
00:52:25.368 --> 00:52:29.040
Might move out to go stay with one of my friends,
1096
00:52:29.040 --> 00:52:30.440
look for a job out that way.
1097
00:52:32.290 --> 00:52:35.461
Johnny, is there something you're thinking?
1098
00:52:35.461 --> 00:52:36.863
Yeah, I have one question.
1099
00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:40.110
I mean, it strikes me listening to your story
1100
00:52:40.110 --> 00:52:42.590
that you were really interested
1101
00:52:42.590 --> 00:52:44.360
in military intelligence initially.
1102
00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:46.370
Like you said your dad was involved in it
1103
00:52:46.370 --> 00:52:49.270
and you signed up, said that's what I wanna do.
1104
00:52:49.270 --> 00:52:51.610
And then they trained you to do something that was,
1105
00:52:51.610 --> 00:52:56.610
in a way that was for a different war, it just didn't apply.
1106
00:52:57.150 --> 00:53:01.030
So I'm just curious, based on what you learned,
1107
00:53:01.030 --> 00:53:03.377
what you experienced, how would you,
1108
00:53:03.377 --> 00:53:06.210
you know, let's say you got put in charge of training people
1109
00:53:06.210 --> 00:53:07.820
to go do military intelligence,
1110
00:53:07.820 --> 00:53:10.710
what would you, how'd you do it differently?
1111
00:53:10.710 --> 00:53:13.110
What would you tell them to do?
1112
00:53:14.940 --> 00:53:17.520
Honestly, when it came to training,
1113
00:53:17.520 --> 00:53:20.340
like the formal part of training,
1114
00:53:20.340 --> 00:53:22.270
we always called it order of battle.
1115
00:53:22.270 --> 00:53:24.980
And that's dealing with your basic units,
1116
00:53:24.980 --> 00:53:27.500
starts with a soldier, goes with the squad,
1117
00:53:27.500 --> 00:53:31.590
goes through a company, none of that applies.
1118
00:53:31.590 --> 00:53:33.500
None of it applies when it comes to these guys.
1119
00:53:33.500 --> 00:53:36.003
It works more in cells and things like that.
1120
00:53:37.860 --> 00:53:39.170
The main thing I would convey
1121
00:53:39.170 --> 00:53:41.119
if I was in charge of training,
1122
00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:42.600
it don't matter who you got in there,
1123
00:53:42.600 --> 00:53:45.430
treat it like it's Geneva Conventions.
1124
00:53:45.430 --> 00:53:47.420
Don't let anyone tell you otherwise,
1125
00:53:47.420 --> 00:53:51.023
or try and tell you anything that might jeopardize that.
1126
00:53:53.070 --> 00:53:55.340
That was something they never stressed to us,
1127
00:53:55.340 --> 00:53:57.850
was you're gonna deal with these irregular forces
1128
00:53:57.850 --> 00:53:59.600
and all of a sudden, they're not gonna have
1129
00:53:59.600 --> 00:54:00.750
a code that you follow.
1130
00:54:00.750 --> 00:54:03.910
But it comes back later that you should have been
1131
00:54:03.910 --> 00:54:06.620
following this code, when the whole time
1132
00:54:06.620 --> 00:54:07.500
they were telling us not to.
1133
00:54:07.500 --> 00:54:08.793
I'd just make it clear.
1134
00:54:15.630 --> 00:54:17.540
Were you trained in the Geneva Conventions
1135
00:54:17.540 --> 00:54:20.760
during your training before you went to Afghanistan?
1136
00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:23.403
We did have sections on it in training.
1137
00:54:24.910 --> 00:54:26.073
Did it surprise you when they said
1138
00:54:26.073 --> 00:54:27.483
that that doesn't apply now?
1139
00:54:28.410 --> 00:54:31.490
It definitely did, but they kind of justified it
1140
00:54:31.490 --> 00:54:33.723
in the fact that this wasn't a regular army.
1141
00:54:35.020 --> 00:54:36.780
I believe if you go back and look at it,
1142
00:54:36.780 --> 00:54:39.480
I'm sure it's been amended by now,
1143
00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:43.100
but if you could find those regs from those field manuals
1144
00:54:43.100 --> 00:54:45.320
from back when we went through that training,
1145
00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:50.320
I don't recall it ever having anything about like terrorist
1146
00:54:50.340 --> 00:54:52.120
or anything like that in there.
1147
00:54:52.120 --> 00:54:55.850
Especially giving them a different designation altogether,
1148
00:54:55.850 --> 00:54:58.057
so that they're not POWs.
1149
00:55:00.070 --> 00:55:02.820
Johnny, do you wanna follow up on that?
1150
00:55:04.165 --> 00:55:06.050
No, I think I'm good.
1151
00:55:07.127 --> 00:55:09.290
And I assume you and your colleagues
1152
00:55:09.290 --> 00:55:11.170
didn't really question it because you're not lawyers
1153
00:55:11.170 --> 00:55:14.140
and you just kind of accepted what you were told.
1154
00:55:14.140 --> 00:55:17.260
And did JAG, did you meet with JAG lawyers
1155
00:55:17.260 --> 00:55:21.080
who might've confirmed that what you were told is correct,
1156
00:55:21.080 --> 00:55:24.028
that these are not POWs
1157
00:55:24.028 --> 00:55:25.340
and you don't have to apply Geneva Conventions?
1158
00:55:25.340 --> 00:55:27.700
Were you told that by any JAG lawyers?
1159
00:55:27.700 --> 00:55:29.000
Not by JAG.
1160
00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:32.170
Well, they did have JAG come in sometimes
1161
00:55:32.170 --> 00:55:34.343
and actually JAG did back it up.
1162
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:37.280
Because I know that there were a few of us
1163
00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:38.440
that had those questions
1164
00:55:38.440 --> 00:55:43.440
and we made sure that we were gonna ask 'em,
1165
00:55:43.810 --> 00:55:47.360
because we were questionable of it at first.
1166
00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:51.240
So of course the JAG presence that was there,
1167
00:55:51.240 --> 00:55:54.140
they're kind of like, "Oh yeah, yeah, it's good.
1168
00:55:54.140 --> 00:55:57.587
What your commander is telling you is right, go with it."
1169
00:55:58.430 --> 00:56:02.350
So, yeah, it's been a while since I thought about
1170
00:56:02.350 --> 00:56:03.300
some of this stuff.
1171
00:56:05.010 --> 00:56:07.590
The JAG officers did come in.
1172
00:56:07.590 --> 00:56:09.610
They weren't there every day, not every day,
1173
00:56:09.610 --> 00:56:11.840
but every now and then they would come in
1174
00:56:11.840 --> 00:56:14.083
and give us a brief on something, and then.
1175
00:56:15.890 --> 00:56:16.990
So you said you were
1176
00:56:16.990 --> 00:56:18.280
betrayed by the military.
1177
00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:20.193
Were you betrayed by your country too?
1178
00:56:21.540 --> 00:56:23.410
I kinda feel that way.
1179
00:56:23.410 --> 00:56:24.610
It's all the same to me.
1180
00:56:26.240 --> 00:56:29.420
I mean, I get no benefits from military, country,
1181
00:56:29.420 --> 00:56:30.343
nothing like that.
1182
00:56:33.160 --> 00:56:34.650
One more question.
1183
00:56:36.580 --> 00:56:38.690
I'm curious if your parents' attitude
1184
00:56:38.690 --> 00:56:40.880
toward the military has changed also?
1185
00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:43.630
You said your dad was career military, right?
1186
00:56:43.630 --> 00:56:45.270
He's retired.
Retired,
1187
00:56:45.270 --> 00:56:48.110
but you kinda followed him in,
1188
00:56:48.110 --> 00:56:49.799
and then they watched all this happen to you.
1189
00:56:49.799 --> 00:56:52.020
How do they feel about it, the military?
1190
00:56:52.020 --> 00:56:54.123
I know my dad was definitely upset.
1191
00:56:56.320 --> 00:57:00.453
He's the biggest, flying the flag and everything like that.
1192
00:57:01.557 --> 00:57:03.310
And he was not very happy.
1193
00:57:03.310 --> 00:57:08.310
So I mean, same kind of thing, like even when I came home,
1194
00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:10.950
like they throw a party and it's the,
1195
00:57:10.950 --> 00:57:14.003
hey, you got screwed party, but welcome home.
1196
00:57:18.550 --> 00:57:20.170
So is he still a military supporter,
1197
00:57:20.170 --> 00:57:21.003
your dad?
1198
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:24.231
No, he's out now.
1199
00:57:24.231 --> 00:57:26.319
He got out before I ever joined.
1200
00:57:26.319 --> 00:57:29.600
I know, but does he still believe in the military and-
1201
00:57:29.600 --> 00:57:31.420
He'll always support the troops.
1202
00:57:31.420 --> 00:57:34.743
But I mean, as far as,
1203
00:57:36.260 --> 00:57:38.530
I can tell you, definitely around that timeframe,
1204
00:57:38.530 --> 00:57:40.400
if I was somebody in the military I probably would have
1205
00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:41.750
stayed away from the house,
1206
00:57:42.700 --> 00:57:44.450
around the time that that happened.
1207
00:57:46.980 --> 00:57:49.530
I mean, he's not gonna fault individual soldiers,
1208
00:57:49.530 --> 00:57:52.453
but he thinks that the whole chain is screwed.
1209
00:57:53.615 --> 00:57:54.730
Do you have siblings?
1210
00:57:54.730 --> 00:57:55.700
I have one
1211
00:57:55.700 --> 00:57:57.490
A brother or sister?
Brother.
1212
00:57:57.490 --> 00:57:58.970
Is he in the military too?
1213
00:57:58.970 --> 00:58:02.230
He was, he only did three years and he got out.
1214
00:58:02.230 --> 00:58:04.600
And did he go to Afghanistan, or?
1215
00:58:04.600 --> 00:58:06.390
No, he never deployed.
1216
00:58:06.390 --> 00:58:07.350
Did he have any thoughts
1217
00:58:07.350 --> 00:58:08.673
about your experience?
1218
00:58:09.650 --> 00:58:10.810
Is he younger or older?
1219
00:58:10.810 --> 00:58:11.760
He's younger.
1220
00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:12.593
Did he have any thoughts
1221
00:58:12.593 --> 00:58:14.273
about his older brother?
1222
00:58:15.860 --> 00:58:18.030
Basically the same as like the rest of the family,
1223
00:58:18.030 --> 00:58:19.890
that this whole thing is crap.
1224
00:58:19.890 --> 00:58:21.593
Like, should've never happened.
1225
00:58:25.780 --> 00:58:29.359
Well, I think, is there something
1226
00:58:29.359 --> 00:58:31.470
I didn't ask you Glen, that you think might be
1227
00:58:31.470 --> 00:58:34.170
useful for history in terms of thinking
1228
00:58:34.170 --> 00:58:36.038
people might watch this 10 years from now,
1229
00:58:36.038 --> 00:58:39.180
or 20 years from now and they just need to understand
1230
00:58:39.180 --> 00:58:42.530
what happened post 9/11 and how people were caught up,
1231
00:58:42.530 --> 00:58:45.520
like yourself and what it all means?
1232
00:58:45.520 --> 00:58:48.670
And if you believe in the rule of law, how that plays out.
1233
00:58:48.670 --> 00:58:51.640
Is there something, when you agreed to talk to us
1234
00:58:51.640 --> 00:58:53.530
were you thinking about something that you'd like to share
1235
00:58:53.530 --> 00:58:57.900
with that kind of audience and that you wanna tell us.
1236
00:58:57.900 --> 00:59:01.660
I'm definitely, just kinda go back on that whole thing
1237
00:59:01.660 --> 00:59:05.960
like you know, being at the interrogation school
1238
00:59:05.960 --> 00:59:09.910
before September 11th, even the NCOs
1239
00:59:09.910 --> 00:59:12.200
and everybody would be like, "Hey, you know,
1240
00:59:12.200 --> 00:59:14.300
a lot of this stuff, don't worry about it.
1241
00:59:15.270 --> 00:59:16.900
You're gonna go to your unit.
1242
00:59:16.900 --> 00:59:18.730
They don't need interrogators.
1243
00:59:18.730 --> 00:59:21.690
There's less than 600 of you in the army right now.
1244
00:59:21.690 --> 00:59:22.810
You're gonna go to your unit
1245
00:59:22.810 --> 00:59:25.170
and you're gonna be stuck in the motor pool.
1246
00:59:25.170 --> 00:59:26.130
That's gonna be your life.
1247
00:59:26.130 --> 00:59:29.240
You're gonna be working on vehicles in the motor pool."
1248
00:59:29.240 --> 00:59:32.973
And then you know that one day, September 11th,
1249
00:59:34.030 --> 00:59:36.147
of course we're outta class for a few days after that
1250
00:59:36.147 --> 00:59:38.710
and we go back and it's like, "Hey, guess what?
1251
00:59:38.710 --> 00:59:40.100
All that stuff we were telling you, you know,
1252
00:59:40.100 --> 00:59:42.070
don't worry about it, guess what?
1253
00:59:42.070 --> 00:59:43.500
It's pretty high on your list now.
1254
00:59:43.500 --> 00:59:45.870
And because you're an interrogator,
1255
00:59:45.870 --> 00:59:47.640
you're probably not even gonna go to language school
1256
00:59:47.640 --> 00:59:49.760
because there's less than 600 of you.
1257
00:59:49.760 --> 00:59:53.170
So we're gonna have to start shipping you guys over there."
1258
00:59:53.170 --> 00:59:56.230
And I mean, it wasn't set up for what happened.
1259
00:59:56.230 --> 00:59:58.030
Of course, nobody was at that point.
1260
01:00:00.930 --> 01:00:04.460
Definitely had the worst timing for going into that job,
1261
01:00:04.460 --> 01:00:05.293
that's for sure.
1262
01:00:05.293 --> 01:00:08.823
So, I hope it's all settled out now.
1263
01:00:10.420 --> 01:00:12.060
What should they have done,
1264
01:00:12.060 --> 01:00:16.020
if there was this emergency, and they need to get the intel
1265
01:00:16.020 --> 01:00:17.550
and they didn't have the interrogators,
1266
01:00:17.550 --> 01:00:20.300
what should they have done instead of what they did do?
1267
01:00:21.204 --> 01:00:22.037
I don't know.
1268
01:00:22.037 --> 01:00:24.640
At the time they were good at outsourcing everything.
1269
01:00:24.640 --> 01:00:27.090
I mean, with your Blackwaters and whatnot.
1270
01:00:27.090 --> 01:00:29.330
I'm sure there are companies out there
1271
01:00:29.330 --> 01:00:31.533
that offer interrogation services.
1272
01:00:32.540 --> 01:00:34.713
Even when I was in Iraq, they brought one,
1273
01:00:35.740 --> 01:00:39.300
we went through a civilian interrogation course,
1274
01:00:39.300 --> 01:00:42.833
which I don't remember the name of the company.
1275
01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:47.210
I mean, something like that could have been an option
1276
01:00:47.210 --> 01:00:48.800
at that point, at least while they're trying
1277
01:00:48.800 --> 01:00:50.093
to ramp people up.
1278
01:00:51.690 --> 01:00:54.393
So you never really were trained
1279
01:00:54.393 --> 01:00:56.393
for that kind of work, as you said.
1280
01:00:57.233 --> 01:00:58.930
And they threw you in to it.
1281
01:00:58.930 --> 01:01:00.930
I mean, I guarantee you like when I went through
1282
01:01:00.930 --> 01:01:03.070
the interrogation course that was
1283
01:01:03.070 --> 01:01:04.660
probably the smallest section on it
1284
01:01:04.660 --> 01:01:07.010
was like a regular forces.
1285
01:01:07.010 --> 01:01:10.417
The rest of it was all, "Hey, you're gonna fight Russia."
1286
01:01:11.670 --> 01:01:13.990
Gonna fight Russia is gonna have all these squads
1287
01:01:13.990 --> 01:01:15.543
and everything like that.
1288
01:01:18.770 --> 01:01:20.850
Hopefully by this point in time it's changed.
1289
01:01:20.850 --> 01:01:23.440
It's more addressed to the current world
1290
01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:24.590
instead of what we did.
1291
01:01:25.730 --> 01:01:28.145
Did you know that detainees you interrogated
1292
01:01:28.145 --> 01:01:29.570
were gonna end up in Guantanamo?
1293
01:01:29.570 --> 01:01:31.670
Were you aware of Guantanamo at that time?
1294
01:01:33.112 --> 01:01:34.570
When we first got there, no.
1295
01:01:34.570 --> 01:01:38.600
But it became quite apparent that
1296
01:01:39.780 --> 01:01:43.060
places were coming to us because we're the most secluded.
1297
01:01:43.060 --> 01:01:47.130
So the other parts in the country were sending us people
1298
01:01:47.130 --> 01:01:50.240
and every month or couple of weeks or so,
1299
01:01:50.240 --> 01:01:52.220
we're sending people off
1300
01:01:52.220 --> 01:01:55.090
and we knew they were going to Guantanamo at the time.
1301
01:01:55.090 --> 01:01:57.210
Which I don't know if the public did
1302
01:01:57.210 --> 01:01:58.790
or not at that timeframe.
1303
01:01:58.790 --> 01:02:00.500
What was your image of Guantanamo,
1304
01:02:00.500 --> 01:02:02.273
do you recall back then?
1305
01:02:03.770 --> 01:02:05.260
If I want to think about it honestly,
1306
01:02:05.260 --> 01:02:07.991
I didn't even know we had a base there.
1307
01:02:07.991 --> 01:02:09.910
So I'm like figure they got some sectioned off
1308
01:02:09.910 --> 01:02:12.403
part of the island where these guys are going.
1309
01:02:12.403 --> 01:02:14.130
I had no idea.
1310
01:02:14.130 --> 01:02:15.330
I just knew they were going there.
1311
01:02:15.330 --> 01:02:20.100
I assumed the facilities were better, but I didn't know.
1312
01:02:20.100 --> 01:02:24.900
I thought it was kinda strange to send them that far.
1313
01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:28.840
'Cause I'm like, all right, I assume at that point
1314
01:02:28.840 --> 01:02:31.080
we have actionable intel
1315
01:02:31.080 --> 01:02:35.553
and then the further they're away from their fellow guys,
1316
01:02:37.580 --> 01:02:39.570
especially the further they're overseas,
1317
01:02:39.570 --> 01:02:41.790
the less actionable any kind of intelligence
1318
01:02:41.790 --> 01:02:43.600
comes from them.
1319
01:02:43.600 --> 01:02:44.747
I mean, unless they told you,
1320
01:02:44.747 --> 01:02:46.370
"Hey, we got this five-year plan
1321
01:02:46.370 --> 01:02:47.820
and here's what we're doing."
1322
01:02:48.920 --> 01:02:50.350
Then by all means, keep them.
1323
01:02:50.350 --> 01:02:52.993
But if they say, "Hey, this is what we have planned,
1324
01:02:52.993 --> 01:02:55.070
this is what we did."
1325
01:02:55.070 --> 01:02:56.350
I don't know what you're gonna do with them
1326
01:02:56.350 --> 01:02:59.260
in three years while they're sitting down there.
1327
01:02:59.260 --> 01:03:00.713
I don't understand it.
1328
01:03:02.360 --> 01:03:07.360
Try 'em or do something, but don't keep 'em locked up.
1329
01:03:07.670 --> 01:03:08.830
I have just a couple more questions.
1330
01:03:08.830 --> 01:03:13.830
One is mainly, did you have any fear for your safety
1331
01:03:13.950 --> 01:03:15.833
while you were in Bagram?
1332
01:03:15.833 --> 01:03:17.333
In Bagram, no.
1333
01:03:19.540 --> 01:03:23.510
We had occasional rocket attacks and mortars,
1334
01:03:23.510 --> 01:03:27.050
but I never feared for my safety there.
1335
01:03:27.050 --> 01:03:29.290
And you never feared from the detainees?
1336
01:03:29.290 --> 01:03:32.585
No, not from the detainees.
Not given your size.
1337
01:03:32.585 --> 01:03:36.273
And when Obama became president did you think
1338
01:03:36.273 --> 01:03:38.670
things were gonna change?
1339
01:03:38.670 --> 01:03:41.640
One of his big promises was to pull everyone out.
1340
01:03:41.640 --> 01:03:44.533
And that's what I wanted for our guys.
1341
01:03:47.257 --> 01:03:48.157
A lot of it, like,
1342
01:03:49.630 --> 01:03:52.163
if we even go into the Iraq part,
1343
01:03:53.509 --> 01:03:56.030
I can tell you sitting down in Kuwait
1344
01:03:56.030 --> 01:03:57.350
before they sent us into Iraq,
1345
01:03:57.350 --> 01:04:00.010
they used to come and do briefings every week.
1346
01:04:00.010 --> 01:04:01.510
They'd have people come talk to you
1347
01:04:01.510 --> 01:04:03.730
and everything like that.
1348
01:04:03.730 --> 01:04:06.180
And one of them they had was a guy,
1349
01:04:06.180 --> 01:04:09.100
who was a veterinarian, I believe.
1350
01:04:09.100 --> 01:04:10.930
And he was a old Iraqi national.
1351
01:04:10.930 --> 01:04:12.740
And he came to talk to us.
1352
01:04:12.740 --> 01:04:15.900
I think he'd become U.S. 'cause he was with the U.S. Army.
1353
01:04:15.900 --> 01:04:18.850
But used to live in Iraq, under Saddam.
1354
01:04:18.850 --> 01:04:23.030
And we're all sitting there in this room
1355
01:04:23.030 --> 01:04:25.780
and he's telling us how horrible things are
1356
01:04:25.780 --> 01:04:29.460
and how bad it is and how evil Saddam is.
1357
01:04:29.460 --> 01:04:31.530
From like, you've got a room full of interrogators
1358
01:04:31.530 --> 01:04:36.530
and people that do equivalent jobs and nobody believed him.
1359
01:04:39.610 --> 01:04:42.240
I'm like, what are we doing here?
1360
01:04:42.240 --> 01:04:43.940
You're obviously trying to lie to us.
1361
01:04:43.940 --> 01:04:46.983
You're trying to get us pumped up for something that-
1362
01:04:47.955 --> 01:04:49.190
Why do you say nobody believed him?
1363
01:04:49.190 --> 01:04:51.640
Why wouldn't they believe him?
1364
01:04:53.393 --> 01:04:54.733
It's just a vibe.
1365
01:04:56.180 --> 01:04:57.370
You go through that training
1366
01:04:57.370 --> 01:05:01.740
and this guy's not coming off as sincere about anything.
1367
01:05:01.740 --> 01:05:04.960
It sounds more like a pep rally,
1368
01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:07.750
instead of an actual informative,
1369
01:05:07.750 --> 01:05:09.373
here's what we're gonna go do.
1370
01:05:10.280 --> 01:05:12.230
It felt like, I personally felt
1371
01:05:12.230 --> 01:05:14.023
like we were being misled into it.
1372
01:05:15.870 --> 01:05:17.520
Like I said, it could just be me.
1373
01:05:19.130 --> 01:05:22.140
I feel a lot of other people in my unit felt the same thing.
1374
01:05:22.140 --> 01:05:23.900
When did you go to Iraq exactly?
1375
01:05:23.900 --> 01:05:25.300
That was 2003.
1376
01:05:25.300 --> 01:05:26.293
That was when it started.
Was it spring?
1377
01:05:26.293 --> 01:05:29.180
It started in March or April of 2003.
1378
01:05:29.180 --> 01:05:33.550
Yeah, it started April, April, 2003, I believe.
1379
01:05:33.550 --> 01:05:34.830
Is that when you went?
1380
01:05:34.830 --> 01:05:37.560
Yeah, we went right in afterwards.
1381
01:05:37.560 --> 01:05:40.570
And did you think, at that time they said
1382
01:05:40.570 --> 01:05:43.980
that the U.S. was going to strike fast and quick
1383
01:05:43.980 --> 01:05:44.813
and it'll be over.
1384
01:05:44.813 --> 01:05:45.970
Did you think that?
1385
01:05:46.830 --> 01:05:50.130
Oh, yeah, I remember watching the original one as a kid,
1386
01:05:50.130 --> 01:05:53.640
when we were just fighting them out of Saudi Arabia.
1387
01:05:53.640 --> 01:05:55.550
And I was like, we backed that army up
1388
01:05:55.550 --> 01:05:56.700
pretty quick that time
1389
01:05:56.700 --> 01:05:58.940
and by everything they were showing us,
1390
01:05:58.940 --> 01:06:01.560
I was like, well if it follows along the same lines,
1391
01:06:01.560 --> 01:06:04.500
this is gonna be, it was gonna be quick and done,
1392
01:06:04.500 --> 01:06:07.163
like you said, you know, it'll be real fast.
1393
01:06:09.620 --> 01:06:13.460
And I mean, it relatively was at least the race to Baghdad.
1394
01:06:13.460 --> 01:06:16.920
And then after that's when, I even like to tell people
1395
01:06:16.920 --> 01:06:21.563
when we first went in it wasn't as bad as when we left.
1396
01:06:23.000 --> 01:06:24.980
It seems like after, when we first went in
1397
01:06:24.980 --> 01:06:28.190
everybody's kinda like, alright, thrown down, running.
1398
01:06:28.190 --> 01:06:30.800
And then after about four or five months of being there,
1399
01:06:30.800 --> 01:06:33.350
that's when they all start popping up again.
1400
01:06:33.350 --> 01:06:36.380
So it's like, all right, the official war part was easy.
1401
01:06:36.380 --> 01:06:38.823
Holding is gonna be the pain.
1402
01:06:40.153 --> 01:06:42.950
And you were sent in different, what?
1403
01:06:42.950 --> 01:06:44.330
You were sent to different cities.
1404
01:06:44.330 --> 01:06:46.120
You weren't just in Baghdad, right?
1405
01:06:46.120 --> 01:06:47.310
Right.
And you did interrogation
1406
01:06:47.310 --> 01:06:48.390
in each of those cities?
1407
01:06:48.390 --> 01:06:49.580
Mm hm.
1408
01:06:49.580 --> 01:06:50.870
And were you alone or were you always
1409
01:06:50.870 --> 01:06:53.400
with a colleague when you did the interrogations?
1410
01:06:53.400 --> 01:06:54.650
Always with a colleague.
1411
01:06:54.650 --> 01:06:55.620
And what's the purpose
1412
01:06:55.620 --> 01:06:57.530
of having two people together?
1413
01:06:57.530 --> 01:07:01.430
A lot of it's just to cover your questioning.
1414
01:07:01.430 --> 01:07:05.493
Like, if I'm asking you about something,
1415
01:07:06.400 --> 01:07:08.660
I'm asking you about a new car or something,
1416
01:07:08.660 --> 01:07:11.000
and I say, "How's the gas mileage?"
1417
01:07:11.000 --> 01:07:13.350
And then you start talking about the city mileage
1418
01:07:13.350 --> 01:07:15.927
and then I move on, then you know my buddy he'll go,
1419
01:07:15.927 --> 01:07:18.613
"Well, hey, what about the highway mileage?
1420
01:07:18.613 --> 01:07:20.663
We didn't get the highway mileage on it."
1421
01:07:21.800 --> 01:07:23.610
And would you talk to your buddy
1422
01:07:23.610 --> 01:07:25.030
before you start the interrogation
1423
01:07:25.030 --> 01:07:27.178
to make sure you were on the same path
1424
01:07:27.178 --> 01:07:28.400
as what question to ask?
1425
01:07:28.400 --> 01:07:30.990
Oh yeah, usually we laid out kind of a game plan.
1426
01:07:30.990 --> 01:07:33.880
Like, "Hey, this is how I'm gonna start talking to him.
1427
01:07:33.880 --> 01:07:36.720
We're gonna try and touch up on this."
1428
01:07:36.720 --> 01:07:39.180
Of course, kinda hard when you're dealing with people
1429
01:07:39.180 --> 01:07:41.700
to follow a strict plan, but at least you gotta have
1430
01:07:41.700 --> 01:07:44.610
that little guideline, that way you're not
1431
01:07:44.610 --> 01:07:46.760
playing off of each other or something like that.
1432
01:07:46.760 --> 01:07:49.994
Did you do good cop, bad cop ever?
1433
01:07:49.994 --> 01:07:50.890
I tried it.
1434
01:07:50.890 --> 01:07:53.843
I don't make a very good bad cop unless I'm quiet.
1435
01:07:55.492 --> 01:07:56.660
You make a good good cop?
1436
01:07:56.660 --> 01:07:57.970
Yeah, I'm a good good cop.
1437
01:07:57.970 --> 01:07:59.060
Well then what about the other guy
1438
01:07:59.060 --> 01:08:01.280
being a bad cop, you ever tried that way?
1439
01:08:01.280 --> 01:08:02.780
We tried, but it looks funny
1440
01:08:02.780 --> 01:08:03.877
when the person's smaller than me
1441
01:08:03.877 --> 01:08:06.483
and they have to play the bad cop.
1442
01:08:08.239 --> 01:08:10.530
So your image was the bad cop
1443
01:08:10.530 --> 01:08:11.673
because of your size.
1444
01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:16.680
Well, honestly I was 20 years old
1445
01:08:16.680 --> 01:08:19.100
when I made it to Afghanistan.
1446
01:08:19.100 --> 01:08:22.500
And I probably only had to shave like once a week.
1447
01:08:22.500 --> 01:08:27.500
So, I wasn't really passing off as the scruffy bad guy
1448
01:08:29.100 --> 01:08:30.340
or anything like that.
1449
01:08:30.340 --> 01:08:31.339
But it doesn't sound like
1450
01:08:31.339 --> 01:08:32.647
you had it in your either.
1451
01:08:32.647 --> 01:08:34.713
No, no, it's not my personality.
1452
01:08:39.460 --> 01:08:41.490
I think I'm pretty much,
1453
01:08:41.490 --> 01:08:44.140
unless there's something else Glen, you wanted to tell us
1454
01:08:44.140 --> 01:08:48.590
just about how you see your experiences
1455
01:08:48.590 --> 01:08:53.520
and how America can benefit from your experience
1456
01:08:53.520 --> 01:08:54.733
and your insights?
1457
01:08:56.260 --> 01:08:57.274
I know I asked you that once,
1458
01:08:57.274 --> 01:08:58.230
but I'll ask you one more time.
1459
01:08:58.230 --> 01:09:00.928
If there's anything else you want to add to that, otherwise.
1460
01:09:00.928 --> 01:09:03.600
I would say definitely like in my scenario,
1461
01:09:03.600 --> 01:09:07.530
especially for combat vets and for the ones
1462
01:09:07.530 --> 01:09:12.520
that have seen combat, like even if we get kicked out
1463
01:09:12.520 --> 01:09:15.730
or something like that, or like in my case,
1464
01:09:15.730 --> 01:09:19.093
where I took a plea bargain, got a bad conduct discharge,
1465
01:09:21.490 --> 01:09:24.090
you know I've seen combat with the rest of my buddies
1466
01:09:24.090 --> 01:09:29.090
in my unit and sometimes you don't always think right.
1467
01:09:29.430 --> 01:09:31.570
And that's something that should be addressed.
1468
01:09:31.570 --> 01:09:33.890
Like even though we were kicked out,
1469
01:09:33.890 --> 01:09:37.460
if it's not supporting full military benefits or whatever,
1470
01:09:37.460 --> 01:09:39.680
at least some kind of psychiatric help
1471
01:09:39.680 --> 01:09:43.610
or something like that, some kind of forum or medium
1472
01:09:43.610 --> 01:09:46.156
or something that can be addressed.
1473
01:09:46.156 --> 01:09:47.660
Because I know there's people that are,
1474
01:09:47.660 --> 01:09:52.660
even I'd be lying if I said, maybe I didn't dabble in drugs
1475
01:09:54.990 --> 01:09:57.600
when I came back from overseas.
1476
01:09:57.600 --> 01:10:00.740
And then, how many other soldiers are doing this.
1477
01:10:00.740 --> 01:10:04.860
And then instead of getting kicked out for doing assault
1478
01:10:04.860 --> 01:10:06.820
and battery, like me, they're getting kicked out
1479
01:10:06.820 --> 01:10:09.530
because they failed the drug test.
1480
01:10:09.530 --> 01:10:12.080
And they're doing these drugs because they were overseas
1481
01:10:12.080 --> 01:10:16.373
and everything's weighing down on 'em.
1482
01:10:17.280 --> 01:10:19.360
So even the forgotten part of it like me,
1483
01:10:19.360 --> 01:10:20.760
who just kinda gets thrown out
1484
01:10:20.760 --> 01:10:25.033
and tossed back out to the side, should be addressed.
1485
01:10:26.260 --> 01:10:28.840
I'm sure it's different now than it was then.
1486
01:10:28.840 --> 01:10:30.170
I can only hope.
1487
01:10:30.170 --> 01:10:35.170
But I can tell you when I got out me and friends,
1488
01:10:36.020 --> 01:10:37.500
even had a guy that lived with us,
1489
01:10:37.500 --> 01:10:40.770
who he's seen it rough over there.
1490
01:10:40.770 --> 01:10:41.960
He wasn't an interrogator.
1491
01:10:41.960 --> 01:10:45.877
He basically did like an MP-type job over there.
1492
01:10:45.877 --> 01:10:48.860
And he was always out beyond the wire.
1493
01:10:48.860 --> 01:10:51.570
And then he goes home to Las Vegas
1494
01:10:51.570 --> 01:10:54.690
and I think he was kicked out.
1495
01:10:54.690 --> 01:10:56.940
And I'm not sure if he was kicked out or not.
1496
01:10:58.630 --> 01:11:00.840
But he went home to Las Vegas, I think he was there
1497
01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:04.610
for a couple of weeks before he ODed on heroin.
1498
01:11:04.610 --> 01:11:06.830
All due to stress from being overseas,
1499
01:11:06.830 --> 01:11:08.423
which he never got help for.
1500
01:11:09.800 --> 01:11:10.970
Are you also talking about help
1501
01:11:10.970 --> 01:11:12.054
while you're in the military
1502
01:11:12.054 --> 01:11:15.111
or only help once you leave the military?
1503
01:11:15.111 --> 01:11:16.560
It should definitely be both.
1504
01:11:16.560 --> 01:11:18.630
People coming back from overseas should be getting
1505
01:11:18.630 --> 01:11:19.520
some kind of help.
1506
01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:20.790
While they're still in the military?
1507
01:11:20.790 --> 01:11:22.203
Mm hm.
And they're not?
1508
01:11:23.360 --> 01:11:25.640
When I was in, they weren't.
1509
01:11:25.640 --> 01:11:27.780
Did you think you had PTSD when you left?
1510
01:11:27.780 --> 01:11:29.400
Did you even think about that?
1511
01:11:31.990 --> 01:11:35.400
I think when I was still in I didn't think about it much.
1512
01:11:35.400 --> 01:11:36.783
There were some instances afterwards,
1513
01:11:36.783 --> 01:11:39.130
when I was out and away from everything,
1514
01:11:39.130 --> 01:11:42.980
that definitely, even like driving down the road
1515
01:11:42.980 --> 01:11:45.340
and all of a sudden, I think I'm looking
1516
01:11:45.340 --> 01:11:47.350
at the the end of the street
1517
01:11:47.350 --> 01:11:49.450
and it looks like the mountains of Bagram.
1518
01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:53.320
Just outta nowhere.
1519
01:11:53.320 --> 01:11:55.270
Who knows, I mighta ran a red light while I did it.
1520
01:11:55.270 --> 01:11:57.480
But stuff like that.
1521
01:11:57.480 --> 01:12:02.480
I mean, fireworks, those were horrible for the longest time.
1522
01:12:04.825 --> 01:12:05.760
Like I said, it's been a while,
1523
01:12:05.760 --> 01:12:08.110
so kinda getting used to being around it again.
1524
01:12:11.350 --> 01:12:14.170
Don't be near me if I'm standing next to the street
1525
01:12:14.170 --> 01:12:15.941
when a car backfires.
1526
01:12:15.941 --> 01:12:17.110
Really.
1527
01:12:17.110 --> 01:12:19.780
I might throw you down looking for cover.
1528
01:12:19.780 --> 01:12:20.913
Really?
Yeah.
1529
01:12:22.353 --> 01:12:24.660
Did you have nightmares too?
1530
01:12:24.660 --> 01:12:25.633
All the time.
1531
01:12:26.740 --> 01:12:29.290
About your time in Bagram and Iraq?
1532
01:12:30.661 --> 01:12:33.913
About the time in Bagram especially.
1533
01:12:35.620 --> 01:12:38.790
That's the one thing that got me the most is like,
1534
01:12:38.790 --> 01:12:40.570
if you could talk to Dilawar right now,
1535
01:12:40.570 --> 01:12:41.550
I guarantee you he'd say
1536
01:12:41.550 --> 01:12:43.700
I was the only friend he had in that place.
1537
01:12:45.690 --> 01:12:47.123
So what's the nightmare there,
1538
01:12:47.123 --> 01:12:50.290
that you betrayed him or that you didn't help him?
1539
01:12:50.290 --> 01:12:52.570
That I didn't do enough for him.
1540
01:12:52.570 --> 01:12:53.403
That's my fault.
1541
01:12:57.621 --> 01:12:59.030
Did you ever speak to his family?
1542
01:12:59.030 --> 01:13:00.377
Could you have spoken to his family?
1543
01:13:00.377 --> 01:13:02.440
Oh, no, I wouldn't have any way
1544
01:13:02.440 --> 01:13:04.240
of knowing how to get ahold of them.
1545
01:13:07.370 --> 01:13:09.770
And did you have flashbacks too?
1546
01:13:11.100 --> 01:13:14.290
Occasionally, I never really had flashbacks that bad,
1547
01:13:14.290 --> 01:13:17.110
but definitely nightmares.
1548
01:13:17.110 --> 01:13:17.943
And do you see yourself
1549
01:13:17.943 --> 01:13:21.590
speaking to Dilawar in that nightmare or is it just-
1550
01:13:21.590 --> 01:13:22.840
Most of the time, yeah.
1551
01:13:26.300 --> 01:13:27.133
Do you see yourself
1552
01:13:27.133 --> 01:13:31.770
speaking to other detainees or to other colleagues
1553
01:13:31.770 --> 01:13:34.250
in those nightmares, or is it just Dilawar.
1554
01:13:34.250 --> 01:13:37.740
There's some other colleagues that I feel like
1555
01:13:37.740 --> 01:13:40.353
we're to blame that, definitely.
1556
01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:44.440
If I saw them here, I wouldn't have things nice
1557
01:13:44.440 --> 01:13:46.190
to say to 'em even after this time.
1558
01:13:48.570 --> 01:13:49.460
Well, would you wanna just,
1559
01:13:49.460 --> 01:13:52.460
you said it Glen, but I don't know if you wanna say it just,
1560
01:13:52.460 --> 01:13:54.180
I think people might wanna hear, do you wanna say
1561
01:13:54.180 --> 01:13:58.790
that you're kind of like you're sorry you didn't do
1562
01:13:58.790 --> 01:14:01.250
better for Dilawar that that's-
1563
01:14:01.250 --> 01:14:02.353
Oh, that definitely.
1564
01:14:03.400 --> 01:14:05.207
'Cause at least even if what I did
1565
01:14:05.207 --> 01:14:07.160
and I was still convicted for what I did,
1566
01:14:07.160 --> 01:14:10.923
if he was still alive, then I wouldn't feel so bad.
1567
01:14:13.210 --> 01:14:15.430
And you'd like to tell him that.
1568
01:14:19.834 --> 01:14:21.350
Well, that's a good way to end, I think,
1569
01:14:21.350 --> 01:14:23.020
if that's okay with you.
1570
01:14:23.020 --> 01:14:28.020
We need 20 seconds of silence, Johnny,
1571
01:14:29.110 --> 01:14:31.390
room tone before we close down and then.
1572
01:14:31.390 --> 01:14:33.190
Unless you wanna say something else?
1573
01:14:34.790 --> 01:14:36.320
Not that I can think of.
1574
01:14:36.320 --> 01:14:37.673
Okay, okay Johnny.
1575
01:14:38.840 --> 01:14:40.053
Begin room tone.
1576
01:14:51.478 --> 01:14:52.645
End room tone.