Mary Hebert: Did your mother stress that and your parents stress you learning about God and about the Bible? Josephine Baker McCray: Yes, lord. Yeah, you had to do. Mary Hebert: Would they read the Bible at home? Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah. You had to do. You had to do. You had to do or get a whipping. I'm going to tell you. You had to read something out of the Bible every day to my mother and father just like you read your school book. You couldn't go to bed until you read some page or something Bible and read them school—You couldn't do. Yeah they was real strict. Real strict. Real strict. Well, in that time, I didn't want Bible. I got it. So [indistinct 00:00:49] a person don't want it. Your parents can make you accept it. Now I got, I accept it. I can read what I want to read. [indistinct 00:00:59] reading. Josephine Baker McCray: I'm 84 years old. My last baby, I raised in Korea. One of my daughters. Son, [indistinct 00:01:12] writing. I can do it myself at that. And I know gotta do is ask God for what you want, and I asked my heavenly Father to help me to stay clothed in my right mind where I can do as I want to do spiritually and temporally. But don't let me go further [indistinct 00:01:41]. Yeah. That's right. Mary Hebert: You're thankful that they taught you to read and write. Josephine Baker McCray: Yes. Ooh, lord. I'm glad. I got some beating about it because I didn't need to do it. But oh, I just be thanking [indistinct 00:01:56] for that beating right now. Mary Hebert: Would they teach you at home, too? You said— Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah. Yeah. Well, everybody needed to teach the child at home. Everybody needed to teach their children at home so the teacher won't have so much trouble getting the school out. That's right. I teach my children at home as best I can go. I sure teach my children. And then when they get to school, they know their lessons. Teachers don't have no trouble with them. I teach my children at home see if they're learning anything. I had [indistinct 00:02:32]. If you don't start before you send your child to school, you ain't know what happening. I wouldn't do that. It's been tough on them, but I bring my children just like my father and mother bring me. Josephine Baker McCray: I bring them reading the Bible. I bring them reading their school book. I tell them don't put no school book ahead of your Bible because if you don't have Jesus, you don't have nothing. I tell my children that. That's right. But [indistinct 00:03:02]. But if you got Jesus, you got it all. Mary Hebert: And that was something you told your children over and over? Josephine Baker McCray: Over and over, and I just still say it today because I know if. If you ain't got Jesus, you're pitiful. There's one thing about Jesus. He don't care about this here Black because [indistinct 00:03:28]. He don't care about how you come. This says you be humble. His Son, Jesus Christ, went down in the grave. He never told Him to go down there now. You go down there and redeem whoever one that comes [indistinct 00:03:50]. Don't mess around and do it for White or Colored people. No, you do it for the world. He never said that. Mary Hebert: No. He said you do it for everybody, didn't He? Josephine Baker McCray: Everybody. He said, "You go down there and do it." And if a fellow don't want to accept it, that's your business. Everybody got a right to [indistinct 00:04:08], and that [indistinct 00:04:10]. Everybody got it, White and Colored. And so if you get mistreated down here, you sure won't be mistreated as long as you get up there. And I don't mind taking a little job [indistinct 00:04:29]. That's all. That home down here. I don't treasure it anymore. I didn't. But I just said, like I been saying now, some people say about—Some people just [indistinct 00:04:50] and scrub and scrub and scrub and scrub preachers. Josephine Baker McCray: [indistinct 00:04:56], but no. When you's a sinner, you a sinner. You're blind. You're blind fool. And I been blind fool, and when I see, I see. And I'll just tell anybody, I'll tell it just like it is. When I was blind, [indistinct 00:05:16], that sin was good to me. Just like grace. I didn't know the difference in it because [indistinct 00:05:23]. Anybody enjoyed, I probably did. But it's better. [indistinct 00:05:27]. I never did do nothing so bad [indistinct 00:05:33] so bad I regret. I ain't saying that. I ain't never. But when I was out there doing the—I used to like to fight now. Mary Hebert: You liked to fight? Josephine Baker McCray: Ooh, when I was coming up, boy, I'd make a fight. Mary Hebert: Who would you fight with? Josephine Baker McCray: Anybody. Just do something to fight people. You just pick at children. I had to fight them same White people I'm telling you about. [indistinct 00:05:58]. We would fight back and then come back, hug and kiss. But I didn't like it. Mary Hebert: Did y'all fist fight or just argue? Josephine Baker McCray: No, we [indistinct 00:06:11] people. [indistinct 00:06:17]. We'd fight with a switch, at least coming up little. Fight with a switch. Mary Hebert: Did you ever get in trouble for that? Josephine Baker McCray: Your mama and papa would beat you. Sure, they would. Did you fight? Sure. Mary Hebert: What about if you're at someone else's house and you got in trouble? Would they punish you, the parents of the other kids? Josephine Baker McCray: No, [indistinct 00:06:40]. You go to somebody else's house—You ain't had to go to nobody else back in my time when I was coming up. Mary Hebert: They always— Josephine Baker McCray: Everybody knew your parents. Everybody. If anybody was seeing you wrong, they would get a stick. I got beaten [indistinct 00:06:54] people, Colored and White. You didn't have to be no mama. [indistinct 00:06:59] because everybody was your mother. Mary Hebert: So any adult could punish you? Josephine Baker McCray: Any could whip you. Any dad could whip you if it be in a—It didn't have to be nobody [indistinct 00:07:18] father or mother [indistinct 00:07:19] adult. Sister or brother can whip you. Anybody [indistinct 00:07:27] whip you. Anybody what know you wrong just whip you. And you better not—If you go home and tell it, you better not worry over it because you'll sure get another one. That's right. Ain't no joke. Man, crazy. There's a lot of things [indistinct 00:07:47]. I had a life back then. Mary Hebert: So it was hard. You made it through and all. Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to tell you, I had a good life back there [indistinct 00:07:52]. Just like I have it now. Mary Hebert: It's a good life now, too? Josephine Baker McCray: What you say? Mary Hebert: It's a good life now, too? Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah, with me. With me, I'm sure. [indistinct 00:07:55] forever lost if they had to live like me now. It's better now. [indistinct 00:08:24] farther along still go farther. It's better, farther along. Yeah, it's better than it was back in—Yeah. [indistinct 00:08:36] better than it was back yonder. Mary Hebert: When your first husband died, were your children still young? Josephine Baker McCray: Well, my oldest one was—My oldest child wasn't quite 17. Mary Hebert: What did you do? How did you make a living? How did you get food on the table in that? Josephine Baker McCray: I got food on the table. I got food on my table. I had some brothers. Mary Hebert: They helped you? Josephine Baker McCray: They back away for me to get something to eat. But I have to pay for it, but then they come [indistinct 00:09:08] for me. [indistinct 00:09:14]. Yeah. Mary Hebert: Did you have to work then? Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah. I worked. Mary Hebert: Who'd you work for? Josephine Baker McCray: [indistinct 00:09:24]. I'm going to tell the truth [indistinct 00:09:25] tobacco market. I ain't doing no sorts of field work after my husband died. I worked at tobacco market and did work down there and things. Mary Hebert: What kind of work did you do at the tobacco market? Josephine Baker McCray: Oh, put tobacco on the [indistinct 00:09:42]. And then I grade something, [indistinct 00:09:44]. Mary Hebert: Were there other women working there? Josephine Baker McCray: Oh, lord have mercy, Jesus. Me and my sister and plenty more people. Mary Hebert: So what did they do at the market? You would grade it, you say? Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah. I'd pick it out. [indistinct 00:10:03] fast grader. I used to grade tobacco all my life for my papa and his friends. And I just could pick it out. I did get into something [indistinct 00:10:14] coming down, sliding down. I picked [indistinct 00:10:18], and he just [indistinct 00:10:19]. Mary Hebert: Oh, so you had to pick the bad leaves out? Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah. Mary Hebert: And you'd bind them together? Josephine Baker McCray: No. Just throw them down. Throw them downstairs then, and then you throw them downstairs, they had somebody down there to take them out. Mary Hebert: So what else did you do at the plant? You said you'd grade the tobacco and— Josephine Baker McCray: Tie it. Mary Hebert: And tie it. You tied the good leaves together? Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah. Tied the [indistinct 00:10:44] together and [indistinct 00:10:47] now. First and second. Now when you're tying it, you're tying it. And you grade it, you're grading it. Mary Hebert: You don't do them both at one time. Josephine Baker McCray: No. Mary Hebert: And how much did you get paid when you were working there? Do you remember how much a week or a day? Josephine Baker McCray: Well, you was in the house, you work a week, you'd get about $70. Mary Hebert: A week? Josephine Baker McCray: $70, yeah. And if you want to work more, get more than that. You do some overtime, like you work on a Sunday. You do good. Good, you work on a Sunday now. Mary Hebert: Were there certain times of the year that you had to work more than others? When it was being harvested, you were busier or— Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah. [indistinct 00:11:36]. You had to be busy. Mary Hebert: And then after you married Mr. McRay, did you work anymore? Josephine Baker McCray: No, no. I didn't work no more. Didn't work no more. Mary Hebert: Well, that's about all the questions I have. Is there anything that I didn't cover with you that you want to talk about? Anything I didn't ask you about? Josephine Baker McCray: Well, is there anything that you asked me about [indistinct 00:12:11]? No, I done [indistinct 00:12:18]. Mary Hebert: I'm glad you had the time to meet with me. Josephine Baker McCray: [indistinct 00:12:24]. Mary Hebert: How did you feel, say, when Kennedy was assassinated? Do you remember that? Josephine Baker McCray: Oh, yeah, man. I remember. Mary Hebert: Were people sad around here? Josephine Baker McCray: Oh, yes, they were because that was a good man. Mary Hebert: Did he do a lot for Black people? Josephine Baker McCray: Huh? Mary Hebert: Did Kennedy do a lot for Black people? Josephine Baker McCray: Oh, yeah. Him and Roosevelt. Him and Roosevelt. Truman. Mary Hebert: Truman? What did Truman do? Josephine Baker McCray: Truman was the first to do good. Truman [indistinct 00:13:04] people—President Truman, I think the one what tell the people—Humphrey. Was there a president named Humphrey? Mary Hebert: Excuse me? Josephine Baker McCray: President Truman was a democrat, wasn't he? Mary Hebert: Yes, ma'am. Josephine Baker McCray: That's why I tell you, I said if the people had do what he had been telling them—But people didn't understand him at the time. I didn't. You would have knowed some of this hard time was coming. And if you was a harvest, you would have get right [indistinct 00:13:37] harvesting and you would have your chicken yard and things fixed, and you wouldn't have to be out there buying all this chicken what people's buying now. You could have had them and raised them. He had said, "Make a way to live at home." Because it was coming. I never did think that, but I had [indistinct 00:13:57] remember that. Mary Hebert: That was Hoover that said that? Josephine Baker McCray: Truman. Mary Hebert: Truman. Josephine Baker McCray: Truman. Mary Hebert: And what did Roosevelt do? Do you remember Roosevelt? Josephine Baker McCray: No, that was a good man. He was a good president. [indistinct 00:14:15]. He sure did. I can remember. Mary Hebert: Did he help people here in Clarington County? Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he helped people everywhere. President Roosevelt and President Truman and President Kennedy helped people everywhere. I think everybody called one of them Abraham. What they call him? Abraham Lincoln. Mary Hebert: Abraham Lincoln. Yeah. Josephine Baker McCray: I know they took him out. Mary Hebert: He's in there, too. Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah. Yeah, he's in there. Well, yeah, he's in there, too. And some more presidents—President Carter wasn't bad. He wasn't bad. I want to tell the truth. He wasn't bad, neither. [indistinct 00:14:54]. And some more of them presidents—Well, like I said, God has blessed me the way I can live with all of them. Nixon, Truman, and [indistinct 00:15:12]. Mary Hebert: I forgot to ask you about your grandparents. Do you remember your grandparents at all? Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah. I remember my grandparents. Mary Hebert: Did they ever tell you stories about what life was like when they were growing up? Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah. Sure did. Mary Hebert: Were they slaves? Josephine Baker McCray: No, my grandmama wasn't no slave. Her mother was a slave. Mary Hebert: Her mother was a slave. Josephine Baker McCray: [indistinct 00:15:34]. Neither one of them wasn't no slave, but their mother was. [indistinct 00:15:42] was slave. Yeah. Mary Hebert: Did they tell you about any stories that their grandparents told them, their parents told them about being slaves or about how they got free and those kinds of things? Did you ever hear those stories? Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah. I heard it. I heard it before. [indistinct 00:15:55] heard it. I sure did. Mary Hebert: Do you remember any of them? The stories? Josephine Baker McCray: I know one of them. One of them was a White man. One of my grandmamas say there's a White man and the old White man, he had slavery. Now she said her mama told her that now. Had slavery, and then the White man had slavery, he'd be in the end of the field and he had hd slaves. And he would have so much for a person to do, and they had to do that or he'd whip them. That was my papa, my mama said. And she said one time, the man's wife was a mean woman. And she was mean, and he [indistinct 00:16:50] certain girl, she was a kind of [indistinct 00:16:53] girl. She wasn't altogether Black. And that man, he wouldn't give that girl as much to do as he did the rest because she'd have to go meet him somewhere in the woods. Josephine Baker McCray: And she said he would go out in the woods, and they'd go out in the woods and he shoot that gun, that girl had to go. Girl had to go. And she was [indistinct 00:17:20] man had that girl for his cook. And the wife never loved it, and the wife would just mistreat her and do any kind of harm. And she said one time, said the old owner beat the girl, too. And the owner beat the girl one day, just beat the girl. So they had a son [indistinct 00:17:46], had the girl [indistinct 00:17:49]. And she stuck the machine needle in the girl's hand. [indistinct 00:17:58] And she said [indistinct 00:18:09] cut something, and she cut it and somebody asked her—Somebody who'd been sewing asked her to cut it. Josephine Baker McCray: And the old woman tell them, said the girl had cut it. And the girl told them she did not cut it. And the [indistinct 00:18:20], he was mean. [indistinct 00:18:20] and said one [indistinct 00:18:20] treat the girl mean, mean, mean. And she was pregnant, and when her child was born, that child was—And then the girl was pulling and she [indistinct 00:18:21]. And she said [indistinct 00:19:02]. [indistinct 00:19:06] So she said that's what the lady had the baby, come in the world, the baby was living [indistinct 00:19:15]. The baby was just [indistinct 00:19:20]. She was just fighting the girl. I don't know if she know the girl [indistinct 00:19:27] had a husband. But she didn't know if she had a husband. Josephine Baker McCray: And they come, and the girl had a baby for the man. And when the girl had a baby for the man, the man take [indistinct 00:19:42] the man build a little house. Had to build a little house out there, and the man would carry that girl [indistinct 00:19:50] and do her good. And she had a [indistinct 00:19:54] baby pretty. His wife's baby just be yawning, [indistinct 00:20:00] doing some kind of funny thing all the time. And slobbering like the [indistinct 00:20:05]. And she said that had made her glad. Made her glad. Mary Hebert: So she was glad that the master's baby was Black. Josephine Baker McCray: She said her mama—Yeah, glad the master's baby wouldn't do that. Her mama said she's been glad that happened like that. Mary Hebert: Oh, I'm sorry. Josephine Baker McCray: [indistinct 00:20:25]. Mary Hebert: So that baby would kind of squirm around and wiggle and— Josephine Baker McCray: That's right. Mary Hebert: —move funny. Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah, move funny. And stayed out of the way and grow up and let that child grow up and be big like a man doing that. Mary Hebert: So he still wiggled around kind of? Josephine Baker McCray: Yeah. Just like a man. Mary Hebert: And jerked his body around? Josephine Baker McCray: The girl put a plague on that women so she— Mary Hebert: Because she treated the slaves so badly. Josephine Baker McCray: Right. That's right. Because the girl had to have been doing what she was doing. Mary Hebert: Okay. Well, I'll stop the tape now.