Donald Edward Morgan: Testing, testing, one, two. Testing, testing, one, two. 

Blair Murphy: It's working. Okay. If you could state your name and your date of birth, and your place of birth. 

Donald Edward Morgan: My name is Donald Edward Morgan Senior. I was born in 1931, on July 6th. I'm from Raleigh. 

Blair Murphy: Could you tell me how it was when you grew up, about your early childhood? 

Donald Edward Morgan: I was born in a community city, where the houses were in sort of bunches. It's a small community here and small community there. But it was very much a community setting, where every family was familiar with the other family, including the children. We were more like what you read about the African families, where the community looked out after each other. Whereas children born in these certain sections, were about four, five others in the community. Therefore, whatever you had, your neighbor had, this included things like food, if you had a large garden, you would give what you had. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Not only excess, but whatever you harvested that day, you would give to others. You would also find that in that community, one person would raise maybe five or six hogs, one person a or cow or two. And chickens, everybody had. Foul, everybody had, so that wasn't necessarily a necessity for sharing, but hog killing time, all the community people would gather in the deep wintertime, and the pigs were slaughtered and prepared. 

Donald Edward Morgan: And all the materials were processed, like the fat was cooked down into grease and the crackling was used for seasoning cornbread. I don't know whether you've had cornbread or not. 

Blair Murphy: Yes, I have. 

Donald Edward Morgan: But crackling, cornbread and the grease was used either for lard or making Lysol. And so the children didn't have much of a life of luxury, because we had to work to help maintain either the house, or what you call a farm [indistinct 00:03:23], or whatever we were doing to survive. The times that I had personally, were fueled for recreational play, because I was the knee baby boy. And of course, most of my older brothers and sisters worked and most of them had left home. 

Blair Murphy: What did knee baby mean, that you were the second baby? 

Donald Edward Morgan: Next to the youngest knee baby. Next to the youngest. My childhood was not one like kids have today, because I had to work in the garden during the day, or in the afternoon. I had to bring in kindling or wood, chop wood, feed the pigs. Most of my childhood was considered for duties. My youngest days, I went to Lucile Hunter Elementary School, then I transferred to St. Monica's Catholic School. And then I went to Washington High School, which was a public school again. I must admit, I learned more at the Catholic school than in the public school, because those people were very thorough and very demanding. Unrelenting as far as the education goes. 

Blair Murphy: Was that primarily a White, or a Black school? 

Donald Edward Morgan: Black. 

Blair Murphy: Black? 

Donald Edward Morgan: Mm—hmm. All White American sisters, were the teachers and Father Carl was the headmaster. And Mother Patrice was the principal of the school or the head nun. And then that school, if you did anything wrong, you leaned over a chair, and you got the whip on your behind, for infractions and rules, not knowing your catechism and stuff like this. The public schools, you would get your hands beat with a strap. 

Donald Edward Morgan: The harness from a horse was used and parts folded over and you'd get your hand strapped. Of course, the good years also, I didn't have much time for fun, because at 13 years old, riding to work at Andrew Johnson Hotel in Raleigh as a pot washer. So I went to high school — Well this was before I went to high school, let me cover this first. When I was in elementary school, I was a caddy for a white lady. And before I would get out of school, she would come there and pick me up and take me to caddy for her at the golf course, Raleigh golf course. 

Donald Edward Morgan: And then she would bring me back to her house. And then from there from there, I'd walk home, or I'd go there and work in her garden and she would bring me back home. But when I got into high school at 14 years old, I worked at Andrew Johnson Hotel, washing pots, and I would also work at the A&P Store. 

Donald Edward Morgan: When the Andrew Johnson Hotel closed, I went full—time at the A&P Store. This meant that I would go to school, go to work, get off at nine o'clock. Go home, feed the pigs, cut the wood, get in the coal, and then studied my lesson. This went on and I worked my way up from tagging cars with strips, which told the time that they'd parked. That was an outside job. And then I worked my way inside, where I was a bagger and I'd bag groceries. Then I worked my way up to the stock clerk, then I was stock foreman. When I left there. I was stock foreman, at 17 years old, which I had volunteered for the Air Force, because my family couldn't afford to send me to college. So the recruiting officer promised her that I would be able to go to college in the Air Force. 

Blair Murphy: And what year did you go to the Air Force? 

Donald Edward Morgan: 1949. August 1949. And well, I went through basic training in San Antonio, Texas. Then I was sent to Biloxi in Mississippi, for basic for training in electronics and communication. After doing so well there, I was transferred back to San Antonio, where I trained other officers and non—commissioned officers in the Russian codes. In those years, it was classified. Not knowing that it was in preparation for my being sent overseas, to do the same thing. But we learned Russian codes and I was shipped to England. 

Blair Murphy: Was it unusual for a Black man to be doing this type of work in the Air Force? 

Donald Edward Morgan: In the Air Force, it was a free thing. It was Black and White working together. Although we knew that when we went into town, there were certain places we couldn't go. For instance, in Mississippi at Keesler Airport Base, this was my experience there. There was a Black section in town, there was a White section in town. They had signed up on the railroad packaging section. It says, no Colored allowed beyond this point after sundown. This was unusual for me, being in Raleigh, where I hadn't been exposed to a lot of segregation. In fact, we just didn't have that in Raleigh. Raleigh was a pretty liberal city, where Blacks and Whites got along fine together. 

Donald Edward Morgan: I'll tell you something later on. The times that I spent in Mississippi were times when I saw a lot of atrocities happening there. One in particular, I remember I was in town one night, and Main Street was the Black street. This side of the railroad track. And of course, the White policemen would ride through there frequently. And of course they had everything that most citizens in Las Vegas have, gambling with the one arm bandits, prostitution. I can't remember my associates buying drugs or anything of the sort, but I knew they were there. But being on a boxing team, we had access to a lot of things that the other Airmen didn't, because of our athletic abilities. 

Donald Edward Morgan: And one night, the five of us were in town, we saw the police car hit a young Black kid on a bike. And of course, he fell off the bike and was on the sidewalk. We ran over there, of course, not knowing Mississippi, we admonished the policeman about hitting the boy on the bike. And he was laying over there with a gash in his leg, I guess about 12 inches long, where evidently something had just scraped along. And it was really bleeding profusely. Of course, the white policeman just walked over to him said, "You hurt boy?" 

Donald Edward Morgan: "No, sir." "Get on your way then." And he got up, limping, on his bike and just walked away pulling his bike. And of course, White policeman says, "That nigger ain't hurt." They ain't going to [indistinct 00:14:26]. So that was a shock to me, to see how none carrying the White policemen were, and there at that particular time, and how disadvantaged some of the people were, and afraid to even report an accident, where a white policeman was involved. But the next night, those same policemen were patrolling the same beach. And of course when they stopped, and I guess they were going to go in one of the alleys, man, they were beat to pieces. Who knows who beat them. But they were beat to pieces. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Nothing came out of this. But then, I was transferred after my training in Mississippi back to Texas, where also there is a section of town where Blacks live. It was more liberal in the sections where Blacks traded. Because you didn't need to do anything in the other section of town, buy clothes and stuff like this. Because in Texas they had grocery stores. They were mostly owned by Blacks. And course, back in those days, you didn't have too many supermarkets. You had grocery stores, general stores, so forth where they could actually get enough food and articles that they needed. 

Donald Edward Morgan: And then after a certain amount of training there, we were notified that we were going to England. So we left Texas, got on a train all the way to New Jersey. It wasn't New — It was Brunswick, New Jersey— 

Blair Murphy: New Brunswick? 

Donald Edward Morgan: — where the train stopped and we were transferred and rode a bus from there, to New York Highway. And there we boarded a ship, a troop carrier. And in 10 days, we landed Southampton [indistinct 00:17:09]. 

Blair Murphy: How was that? 

Donald Edward Morgan: How was the trip? 

Blair Murphy: No, how was England? The trip must've been rough. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Oh, it was beautiful because there, you had a free life. People might refer to you as something rather than a man. I never heard the word, nigger. I never heard the word Black. In fact, I forget what they used to call the Black people there. But they didn't refer to him in a derogatory manner. It was like you had wealthy Blacks, as well as wealthy whites there. The Black guy was really adopted by a family, where man was Black and the woman was White. Fred Roberts, who was a retired aviation clerk, worked with the London Air Base, commercial British Airways. 

Donald Edward Morgan: That's who he worked for. But at any rate, Fred and his wife adopted me, because he said I looked like his nephew, when I was at the club. So anytime I would go into London, I would stay in their apartment, they call them flats there. So they even gave me a flat, that I could live in whenever I would come to London. So I had a place to stay. They supplied my refrigerator with food and drink. I could take my girls there, but I had a place of my own. But I would always go there and stay, rather than go up to the flat. 

Blair Murphy: What were his origins, the man who [indistinct 00:19:33]? 

Donald Edward Morgan: He was from the West Indies, but he'd evidently made it real good there. And even the time that I was there, I enjoyed it very much, because there were only two places, because of my clearance, I couldn't go. High Park and Trafalgar Square, I couldn't go, because they were communists there and they were afraid that we would be questioned, I guess, by the communist factions there. So we were restricted from going into those places. 

Blair Murphy: Race wasn't a factor? 

Donald Edward Morgan: No, I didn't experience any race hatred, except on the base. We were stationed at Chicksands Priory, which was a place where the Royal Air Force Training Center was located. And they turned it over to the Americans. And therefore, everybody lived in Quonset huts. And the community was there. And a few southerners there still brought the American hatred over there. I was only in two fights while I was there. It just so happened that my first real altercation with a White fella, was one of the fellas on the opposing boxing team. And we were in Brighton. Brighton, which was a small town right outside of Chicksands Priory. And he had always been bugging me, bugging me because not having any Blacks, there were very few Blacks in those small towns. 

Donald Edward Morgan: In fact, the only thing you had to go with was white. But this white girl took a liking to me. Of course that's who I [indistinct 00:22:07] for a long time. But then one evening I was walking with my friend's girl, who was supposed to meet him at a club, and this White sergeant. Well, I was a sergeant too, but this night he came up, walked behind us, because he was liking the girl, but she wouldn't go with him, so this was my friend. And he kept saying things as we walked along. And she kept telling me not to pay any attention to him. Of course, he finally he came up and pushed me. 

Donald Edward Morgan: And when he pushed me, I turned around and I popped him one, and he fell into a plate glass window of one of these shops there. Of course, the next day we were called into the orderly room and the captain was questioning me, concerning the altercation. And I explained to him what had happened, not knowing that the next thing he was going to tell me, after reprimanding the sergeant who hit me. And the girl was there as a witness. And so she told him what had happened. So he told the sergeant to wait outside. 

Donald Edward Morgan: And then he told me my sister had died in the United States, the one that I cared most about. And of course, that just broke me down. And they wouldn't let me come back to the States, to the funeral. That's what made me mad. I mean mad, not even Red Cross would help me get back. I had the money, but all I needed was them to intervene, for me to get passage for that, maybe four or five days to get back. That's the reason I don't give to the Red Cross now, after years, I had done. 

Donald Edward Morgan: My younger years, before going in the Air Force, I had gone through the swimming processes. And in '49 I became an instructor in water safety instruction, believe it or not. And I did this for the Red Cross, while I was in the Air Force. And I taught swimming, lifesaving, but that didn't seem to matter. But that beyond the, I still have that itching in the [indistinct 00:24:58], when they say, "Give to the Red Cross," because they denied me that privilege, coming back. When I was there at Chicksands, it's almost two years, the notice came out that any man who had less than 90 days to go before discharge — I had been extended already one time, six months, where I had done my duty, as far as the three years that I had volunteered for. 

Donald Edward Morgan: But they extended me while I was there. And so then it came to the point where they said, any man who had nine less than 90 days of duty, would come back to the States. Well, I was in that group. So that put me in line to come back. So we left there, the early part of November, because we arrived in New York Harbor again, the day before Thanksgiving. 

Blair Murphy: And the year? 

Donald Edward Morgan: 1951. And we were processed very rapidly, so that we could go home on Thanksgiving. We even had train tickets. I remember getting on the train and getting from New Jersey. Again, we came from New York to New Jersey on the train. And from the train, I got to my home Thanksgiving Day, early in the morning. And my family was so glad to see me because I didn't tell them that I was coming home. So in December, I was discharged from the Air Force, from Folk Field in Fayetteville, North Carolina. There I met a lot of the guys, who had been in the Korean conflict — 

Donald Edward Morgan: Oh, by the way, this was during the Korean conflict, while I was in the military. In the interim of getting discharged, which you have to be processed, and it takes sometimes days and sometimes weeks, before you can get all your things together, I explored the city of Fairford, where they had the slave market. How the people lived there, the Colored sections, the white sections, those sections that were in between. And it was more or less a military town. I came back to Raleigh, after being discharged from the Air Force. And I had reason to go to New York, where I was engaged to a young lady and we were going to get married. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Of course, I'd been engaged to several women before then, but had broke them off. But this one, I was intending to do so. But I went to New York, and of course I got the biggest surprise in my life, when I wasn't the first man that she had gone with. And of course, it was wintertime and was snowing and very cold. And when I returned from New York, I fell with pneumonia. And I must tell you this, even though it has nothing to do with segregation, I had an out of body experience. 

Blair Murphy: What was that like? 

Donald Edward Morgan: It's not segregated, but it's— 

Blair Murphy: That's all right. 

Donald Edward Morgan: You want to hear about it anyway, huh? 

Blair Murphy: You want me to stop the tape? 

Donald Edward Morgan: Yes, it's, of course. It's all right now. It doesn't matter. I consider myself not really having a private life. But this particular time. I got so sick that I went to my family's doctor and he gave me some medicine. Well, my oldest brother, he was going to a white doctor, but we were stone stuck on our Black doctor, because we were supporting our doctors. And of course, I got so sick. I mean, I was weakening every day. And of course, I got to the point where I couldn't keep anything in my stomach. My fever was so high, that my forehead cracked. My lips were chapped to the point where they were splitting. 

Donald Edward Morgan: My forehead cracked, my eyes were orange. And so my oldest brother came over one day, and he looked at me. I had to be taken to the bathroom by my nephew and my youngest brother. I couldn't do anything for myself. I was just that weak. So my oldest brother came over one day and he says, "Mama said that boy is sick. Can I call my doctor?" She said, "Your son is supposed to be real, real sick." So he called the White doctor, who came out to see me. And he told my mother, he said, "This boy is dying." He said, "The medicine that this other doctor gave him wasn't enough to cure a fly." He says, "I'm not going to promise you anything, but I'm going to give him this medicine. And if it doesn't work within 24 hours, you've lost a son." 

Donald Edward Morgan: Well, that I heard, but it didn't register how sick I was. But the same day, there was a neighbor across the street, who came over and was talking to me. She was sitting at the foot of the bed and she was talking. But as she talked, her voice started to fade away. And all of a sudden, I got up out of my body. I got up out of my body and was traveling within space. It was a great white light. It was just all white, peaceful. And I was just traveling up, traveling up. And of course, the closer I got, the better I felt. And the music, oh, it was heavenly. I mean, it was just peaceful. 

Donald Edward Morgan: And all of a sudden I stopped traveling out and I started traveling back. And I didn't want to go back. But I started traveling back and kept traveling, until I heard voices and mumbled voices at first. And then of course, as I got closer to my body that was laying there, our preacher was Reverend Delaney and my mother, at the foot of my bed praying. And I just got back into my body. And when they finished that prayer, the preacher went out and mama came and asked me, she said, "Do you feel like eating something, son?" I said, "Yeah, can I have an apple?" She went in and peeled an apple and gave it to me. I ate it. And believe it or not, that whatever it was in an apple, or that sickness, or God's healing came upon me. And I threw up large chunks of phlegm, like oysters. 

Donald Edward Morgan: It was like back in those days — I don't know what you call them today, but they would call them shingle pops. It's a stool about that tall, big, deep pan that you could pass your water or your feces in. And I guess I vomited up about a quarter of a bucket of stuff, looked like big oysters. And from then on, I just recuperated from the pneumonia. But I wanted to go to college. So I had to go over to St. Augustine's College to register. And my walking had to be done with a walking cane, I was so weak. But I registered for the freshman class in January 19th, and that's when I started my college education. I graduated from St Aug in January '57. And I graduated first in my class and got a job in April, in Fairfield, North Carolina, back to my discharge area. And I worked there almost three years. And then I applied for a NDEA scholarship and I won one in— 

Blair Murphy: What were those initials again? 

Donald Edward Morgan: NDEA, National Defense Education Act, which was a paid stipend to go to a school of higher education. You had to apply for these, and the schools had to admit you. Well, I had admissions from Syracuse and Penn State, so I decided to go to Penn State and don't ask me why, but in between this course, I was married. I married my junior year in college, to Pandora Hitchman, who lived in Hollister, North Carolina. 

Donald Edward Morgan: She's Haleiwa. I'm part Cherokee. My father was Cherokee. My mother was the product of a white and Black, I guess, who knows. Back in those days, I don't know. And the only thing I know is I'm what you call Heinz 57, because I'm not Black, I'm not African American. I'm just Heinz 57, because I have more Indian than anything else. But yeah, I'm just Heinz 57. But at Penn State, I went there, and of course, outwardly the things were fine. I got an apartment very easily. I registered very easily. But in the classes, is where you saw the bigotry or the hatred of Blacks. I've had instructors tell me that "You're not going to pass my course." I've had them tell me, "You're not going to be the first one to pass my course." I made one out as a liar. I only flunked him. But the next semester, I registered with the same teacher and set the curve for that class. 

Blair Murphy: What were you studying? 

Donald Edward Morgan: Botany 500 A and B. You see, in undergraduate school, I had mostly the zoological courses, because I was a pre—med major. But having married and having a son, I couldn't afford to go to med school, to married medical. So I took further courses in education, and became a teacher. My major in college was biological science, and my master's was in biological science. But I had to take more botany there at Penn State, because my zoological background had to balance. Well, I received my degree in August 1961, and John Perry — Who was in school with me there, by the way, and a lifelong friend, because I first met him in 1936 when he and my sister were students at St. Augustine's College, where both of them finished. And they were very good friends. They came over to my house and ate dinner almost every Sunday. He and my brother—in—law's friends. 

Donald Edward Morgan: And of course, the next time I saw him was when he would bring kids from Norfolk, down to the college for orientation to the college, or just to see the college, what it was like. So he was really a force in getting Black kids into college. Next, after my receiving degree, I went back to the point of determining whether I was going to go back to Fayetteville or not. My wife didn't want to go back. By the way, when we lived in Raleigh, we had our first son, which meant I couldn't go to medical school. I moved to federal, I had my second son, two years later. We moved to Penn State, I had my third son two years later. 

Donald Edward Morgan: And when we moved to Virginia Beach, fourth son, three years later. So it's like move, son. Children every time we move. So I told my wife, once we got here to Virginia Beach, no more moving. But at any rate, what I did was to take a job that was vacant, with the demise of one of the prominent members there. And I started teaching biology, chemistry, and physics at Union Kempsville, which was then Princess Anne County Training School. And remember now, segregation was still evident. That was an all Black school. 

Blair Murphy: This is '61? 

Donald Edward Morgan: Yeah, located on Ridgetop Road. Well, at that particular time, the Blacks had their principal's meetings separately from — The only time that we ever came in contact with each other, was at principal's meetings where we met at the administration building. And of course, you could feel the blades cutting your back whenever you turned it, and you could feel the difference. Therefore, the main thing that I was intending to prove — even to the point of associating with who was going to become the next superintendent, which was Ed Brickle. I'd walk by him every day and he'd walk by me and we wouldn't speak. 

Donald Edward Morgan: Well, I knew before he came in, the top man in Virginia Beach then, was the only man that I ever knew, that would call up Washington DC and would say, "Hello, Lyndon." That was Sidney Kellum, who was familiar with Lyndon Johnson, who was president then. But he and the superintendent then was Frank Cox. He met with the Black factions in the city, which was a Black preacher, H.C. Benjamin, Mr. J.V. Borg, who was the principal of the school, and myself, and now there was one other person there at the meeting. 

Donald Edward Morgan: And of course, Mr. Cox and Sydney Kellum. He was telling us that he was coming in as one of the top administrators, and we were fighting this, because he was a faction in South Norfolk, where they fought integration of schools. So we didn't want him here. But then Mr. Kellum says, "The man has changed. He is no longer a faction of that group. He believes that desegregation should come about. So how about giving him a chance?" 

Donald Edward Morgan: So we agreed to give him a chance. But the meantime, me being — Oh, I forgot to tell you, I was promoted to assistant principal, the second year I was there at Princeton County Training School. And that's when, of course I would go to meetings with my principal, Mr. J.D. Morgan. And when we'd have administrative meetings, we'd meet down at the main building, and of course, we'd pass by each other. And finally, one day he —