- Melanie, thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed. And, I wondered if I could start with some background material. First of all if you could say and spell your name. - Yes, Melanie M-e-l a-n-I-e. My middle initial is S, Schulten. And my last name Morrison, m-o-r-r-i-s-o-n. And, I'd appreciate your including my middle initial because there are other Melanie Morrisons, I have learned. One in particular who does work, not unlike mine, and we've been confused for each other. - Well, that's very helpful to know, thank you. We will definitely do that. Now, Melanie are you lay or clergy. - I am clergy in the United Church of Christ. - Great, and Melanie when and where were you born? - Chicago, Illinois April third, 1949. - Great, and where did you go to school, graduate or divinity school? - I got a bachelor in arts from Beloit College. A master of divinity from Yale Divinity School. And, a PhD from the University of Groningen, G-r-o-n-I-n-g-e-n in the Netherlands. - And thank you for spelling that. What work or ministry were you doing at the time of Re-Imagining, Melanie? - I was, in 1993, I had just left part time ministry. I was a founder, a co-founder, co-pastor of a new church start in Kalamazoo, Michigan that began in 1988. I worked in that ministry for five years, had left earlier in 1993, but the church was Phoenix Community Church. It later became a part of the United Church of Christ. And, Phoenix Community Church was a new church started in 1988 because of, there were some of us here in Michigan who were feeling the time had come to launch a new congregation that was particularly, explicitly welcoming of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered people. So, it began in Kalamazoo, Michigan. It was actually the very first local congregation in southwest Michigan that was explicitly, Christian congregation, that was explicitly welcoming of LGBT people. I left that part time ministry because I wanted to work full time with another non-parish ministry that I had begun with my colleague and mother, Eleanor Morrison in 1987. And, that was a small non-profit called Leaven, like leaven like yeast. Like the stuff that makes bread rise. Leaven, its initial mission was to provide education, training, and resources in the areas of spiritual development, feminism, and sexual justice. I worked with my mother who was also ordained in the United Church of Christ, and a sexuality educator. Had worked at Michigan State University for a number of years in sexuality education, and an author of several books about teaching human sexuality at the university level. We started Leaven, as I said, in 1987 and we worked together for 17 years. And, Leaven is no longer in existence, but was a vibrant, vital organization for almost 30 years. - That is impressive, and working with your mother, go ahead. - Yeah, excuse me. It was about 25 years that Leaven was in existence. Out of Leaven we began in 1995 the Leaven Center in mid Michigan located between Lancing and Grand Rapids, Michigan. It was a retreat and study center. And, the Leaven Center we did that ministry, I and my partner, April Allison, and the Leaven Board, and with my colleague and mother Eleanor Morrison. We launched the Leaven Center, which was in existence oh goodness, for about, all together, about 17 years. Unfortunately, it too is no longer in existence. - Did Allies for Change come directly after that, your current? - Yeah, so after I left as director of the Leaven Center at the end of 2007 because I wanted to return to full time facilitation of groups. And, I also wanted to return to writing. The work at the Leaven Center was extraordinarily meaningful and important work. It was also very exhausting and never ending work as the administrator of that retreat center in trying to keep it afloat. And so, I wanted to return, again, to the kinds of work that actually my mother and I were doing together which was group facilitation and educational events. And, I particularly wanted to focus on what is really my deepest calling and passion and that is racial justice education. So, I left the Leaven Center to launch Allies for Change which is a network of social justice educators or we sometimes call ourselves anti-oppression educators. - That is, oh go ahead. - Allies for Change has been in existence since 2008. - Thank you so much. And Melanie, do you recall how and when you first became aware of feminist theology? - Oh goodness. Well, I remember when Rosemary Radford Ruether published I think it was The Radical Kingdom, one of her first books. And, I was senior in college at the time. And, I remember reading it and being just, (laughs) it was so important to me. I think I really returned with greater fervor to feminist theology than in seminary which was in the late 70s. After I left college I went to live for three and a half years at Koinonia Farm in southwest Georgia. And, with someone who went to seminary out of that experience. And, became very involved in wanting to at first, I was studying Greek and Hebrew so that I could do exegesis and re-imagining texts. I took courses, I was also enrolled for a while, in Boston. I took course with Phyllis Trible, the Texts of Terror and so forth. And then, at Yale Divinity school, also, was studying feminist theology and that was in the late 70s. So, I think that's when it was really speaking to me, beginning to really speak deeply to me, and become a framework for my own preaching and my own sense of, the theological limbs I was bringing to world. I will add that both feminist theology and lesbian feminist theology became very important to me as well as womanist theology being created by scholars like Deloris Williams, also very important to me. - Thank you, that's very helpful. If we could move to the Re-Imagining community, or to Re-Imagining conference could you talk about, I know you were involved, attended and were involved in the 1993 conference. Can you start with what led you to your initial involvement in the conference? - Yes, I can't recall exactly how we heard about it. That was at the time, with my mother Eleanor Morrison, we were co-directors of Leaven. And, we were offering eight month seminars for women entitled In Our Own Voice, Women Reshaping Theology and Spirituality. So, we were doing feminist and womanist theology in a grassroots kind of way. Bringing women together from around Michigan for these gatherings, this seminar. And, several of us from that seminar so I'm remembering accurately decided we didn't necessarily travel together, but thought let's go to this Re-Imagining conference. Because, it sounds very much like this will feed the work we're doing here in Michigan as women re-imagining theology and spirituality. So, that's what, at the same time, I wanted to mention this too, my mother and I had been, were co-authoring a 10 session human sexuality curriculum for the United Church of Christ called Created in God's Image. And, it just, it felt to us, both the seminars we were offering through Leaven and this work on Created In God's Image that attending Re-Imagining with the announced speakers that were going to be there it just felt like something we couldn't miss, we simply couldn't miss. I wanna say, parenthetically, that in the aftermath of Re-Imagining when we saw statements like the statement from retired presiding United Methodist Bishop Earl Hunt who, parenthetically, was a friend and colleague of my mother's father, who was a district intendant. Now, he was no longer alive at the time of Re-Imagining, but they were friends and colleagues. He's Earl Hunt, so my mother knew Earl Hunt when she was growing up. Anyway, when we saw that he had said, in great distress about Re-Imagining, "No comparable heresy has appeared "in the church in the last 15 centuries." My mother and I had to laugh a bit and say, "Oh, my goodness aren't you glad that we attended one of "the most significant events in the last 15 centuries "of the Christian church?" (laughs) Now, we took that and we registered for this. And surely, also when we were present, even though our analysis was not the same as Bishop Hunt's we knew we were attending something that was profoundly significant. So, so glad that we were there. - That is wonderful. Now, I know it's been almost 25 years now, but I would love to hear about your memories of the event. - Well thank you, yeah. Okay, these are some of the things that really stand out for me. As someone who has helped to plan conferences and who has attended many, many conferences through the years I was in awe of the planning and orchestration of the Re-Imagining Conference. I don't know how long that planning committee worked together before launching Re-Imagining but I thought it was impeccably planned and orchestrated. When I think about things like this, this is things that I remember that we sat at tables that were purposely, the location of our table group was intentionally moved to different locations each day. And, I remember having searched for our folks, our table. It was the intentionality in that was so that none of us of the participants, and it had gotten into 2200 of us who were present, that none of us would only be on the margins in those plenary gatherings. So, that we would move closer to the central stage and podium, at times we would, we were moved back at other times. I just thought that alone was brilliant in terms of equalizing the experience for everyone. I also saw the transparent, light weight podium that the speakers spoke from. I remember the speakers picking it up and moving it during their speeches. This is, again, when we were all together in plenary sessions. So that, during the course of their speech they could be facing every part of the room at some point. Once again, so that some people, because that was in the center of the room, so that it wouldn't be the case that some people would always be seeing the back of the speakers. I vividly remember early on that a blessing was sung for a speaker and then for each successive speaker we sang, "Bless Sophia," as a way all of us of commissioning and blessing each speaker which I thought was beautiful. I remember the artists working on large banners while speakers were talking in the plenary sessions. I remember art materials at the tables and a paper table cloth so that we could draw and do things with our hands while presentations were happening. And, how that was also a gift to people who need to do that to be able to concentrate better. I remember there being no announcements from the podium from the stage. I don't quite remember whether we got the announcements like they were posted or were given to us in printed form. I'm not quite remembering that, but I distinctly, and I have reason to remember this also, for purposes of the negotiations later with the planning committee. But, that meaning that we went we moved from height to height to height. I mean, we moved from one stunning speaker right into the next stunning speaker. I mean, there was singing. There was liturgy. It wasn't just speeches. And, it was very multi-media. But, it wasn't interrupted by that more kind of logistical announcement kind of thing, which I also thought was really, really helpful and moved things along. I remember that it was a spectacular and beautifully diverse group of presenters and presentations. Those in the plenary sessions and in the four main groups sessions, I don't remember what they were called, where we would go into, like 500 of us would choose like Re-Imagining Jesus. I know that was the one I attended with Deloreds Williams, Barbara Lundblad so forth and speakers. I think it was when we got into, broke into those smaller constellations I knew there were very hard choices because I wanted to hear every single speaker at that conference. And, I would say, just for me personally two of the presentations that were most stirring and stand out for me to this day I will never forget. Delores Williams, Womanist Re-Imagining of Atonement. I felt, sitting there, that I was, it was what the Quakers would call a covered meeting. The presence of the spirit it was both content and process, her passion in delivering it. And, just the gift of being there I will never forget. And, a similar sense when Rita Nakashima Brock gave her plenary address, I believe it was on Re-Imaging God. My mother and I then, subsequently, have used those texts and tapes for years in our Leaven seminars, in our own voice seminars. We took those back to Michigan and have listened to them over and over. Not just those, but those are two that really stand out for me. So, those are some of the things I most remember. - Melanie, you remembered quite a bit, actually. That was great. - Of course, it was also as is the case with these kinds of events, it was also an event was reunion time with friends from other parts of the country that I hadn't seen. It was just so happy to be there in Minneapolis with people that I loved and missed. So, that was also another aspect, of course. - Of course, now I know two ways, important ways you were involved were the workshop. So, I wanna hear about that. And also, about the unofficial statement that was made. And, I wanna hear about both of those. Should we start with the workshop? - Sure, yes. So, there were these, what did they call them? Multi-format options or something. I mean, everything was re-imagined at Re-Imagining, including, I don't think they used the word workshop. But, it was essentially a workshop. Yeah, it was multi-format option group. (laughs) And the title of that group that I led co-led with four others, I'll name them in just a moment, was Listening With Our Hearts: Prophetic Voices of Lesbians in the Church. And, I co-led that with Diane Christopherson, CathyAnn Beaty, Jeanine Spahr, and Nadean Bishop. - I am sorry to interrupt, would you mind spelling the last names of, I know Nadean Bishop, and Spahr-- - Of the other presenters? - Yes. - Okay, Christofferson is c-h-r-i s-t-o-p-h-er-s-o-n. CathyAnn, let me just spell that, too. It's spelled C-a-t-h-y and then capital A-n-n but all one word. CathyAnn Beaty, B-e-a-t-y. Jeanie Spar, S-p-a-h-r. And Nadine, N-a-d-e-a-n Bishop B-i-s-h-o-p. - Thank you. - Sure. And, that group workshop was held on Friday, November fifth from 3:45 to 5:15. And, we shared, each of us, shared how we experienced lesbian women re-imagining theology and Christology, and so many different things. What the gists were, the theological re-imagining that lesbians were bringing as gifts to church. I recovered, I don't have the notes of what my co-presenters said that day. But, I did find just some scribbled notes of what I talked about. I'm not going to give you my whole spiel, these are just scribbled notes But, I talked about my experience, because I'd just come from five years of pastoring a church that was about 90% lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender. Only about 10% of people identified as heterosexual. And, so I shared some of my experience at Phoenix Community Church. But, I particularly was talking about some of the unique ways, as lesbians, how we come to sacred writings, including scripture. And, how we listen, what we hear because of the experience we bring, where we find holy writs, holy words. And, I'll just say, in terms of the where this is something I don't know, I know, I don't know that there was some spies at the workshop. We learned afterwards that there some people who had come with the intent of them getting the word out before the planners of Re-Imagining could get out intp the world what had happened there. People who'd come to really sabotage, I mean, in terms of their later publicity about what had happened. And so, I don't know whether there were people in that very workshop, I think there may have been, who were taking notes. And, some things that I said, I'm not saying, I'm not attributing it only to me, because there were other people who were saying similar things, but it felt like maybe some of us got into the furor that resulted. Because, I said things like in terms of the where do we find sacred texts. I said that we as lesbians know, by experience, that the canon is not closed. That it cannot be closed because we know we would be bereft if there were only, the only writings we considered sacred and holy were those in what has been canonized as The Bible we know we would be bereft if that were true. And, because we have encountered wisdom and sacred writing elsewhere. That The Bible, for us, as Christian lesbians is indeed the central source, but it is not enough. Because, it alone cannot bring us into right relationship with the Earth. It cannot bring us into right relationship with our sexual embodied selves as lesbians, that we need, we need the writings of Adrienne Rich, and Audrey Lorde, and Carter Heyward, and (mumbles) and so forth. To place alongside Ephesians and Corinthians and the Gospels and so forth. And that at Phoenix Community Church that we would announce that we were reading some sacred writings. And so we would say, "I read to you from the prophet Isiah." And then, we would follow up with, "I read to you "from the prophet Audrey Lorde." And, after reading both of those texts we'd say, "Thanks be to God for this holy word." So, that's some of what I talked about. (laughs) I truly came through all of that. Again, this is my memory, that it was at that workshop I have in scribbled notes that I asked and I don't know that I was the I said I am longing for there to be someone in our plenary sessions who speaks in a lesbian voice, who brings some of this perspective. We were happy and grateful that there were workshops where lesbians were speaking in our own voices. But, when it came to all of us being together in the plenary sessions I think we knew, because we knew, personally knew some of the plenary speakers that there were lesbian women speaking in the plenary sessions, but thus far in the first two days of the conference, so this workshop we have Listening to our Hearts, Prophetic Voices of Lesbians in the Church, that took place Friday afternoon. So, there had been two days now of speakers, thus far in those first two days of the conference, when we were all gathered together none of the plenary speakers was speaking openly in a lesbian voice, or perhaps just as significantly none of the speakers thus far had called that entire gathered community to ask what it's mean to stand in solidarity with lesbian, bi, and transwomen. And, so my memory is that is was out of that workshop when that question was kind of raised, the longing that that would happen, that some of us stayed after the workshop and began scheming about (laughs) how we're gonna find out whether it's gonna happen or it's just not okay given the fact that here you had at this Re-Imagining conference people gathered from just about every conceivable Christian denomination. And, that still, in 1993 most of those Christian denominations had disciplines or policies that prohibited the ordination of openly, of people who are out and open about their sexual orientation, about being lesbian or gay, or bisexual, or trans. And, it just felt to us, this was here we are at the end of decade in solidarity of women and there's a significant part of that women, a significant community that is marginalized, excluded, oppressed still within the church. And, there's dead silence in the plenary about that. And so, I've now segued, as you can see, into your other question about the invitation that was offered from the podium. Shall I continue talking about that? Do you have anything else you wanted to ask? - No, no this is wonderful, this is great. And, I assume you'll talk about the negotiation and then the experience of it, good. - Just, of course, like everything else I've named to date, this is my memory. I wish, right here, right now, Jeanie Spahr, and Celise Berry, and so forth and so on, Barry Hahn and others were here sitting with me so that collectively we could better recreate how this came to past. So, this is just my memory. And, had my life not been so busy the last weeks I might have called some of those folks to check it out. But anyway, didn't have the time to do that. So, my memory is that two or three of us representatives from Clout, mow Clout was an organization, shall I say just a little bit about? - Yes, please do. - Yeah, so Clout was an organization that we began in 1990 when at the invitation, actually, of Carter Heyward, CathyAnn Beaty, and myself 10 lesbian women gathered in Deb Harrison's living room at Union Seminary to talk about the fact, to talk about the possibility of starting a new organization of lesbians who would be really, who would from the first moment be publicly out and that we would be challenging our respective denominations to really struggle more with policies that forbade the ordination of lesbians, of out lesbians, okay. And so, how it was started in 1990, and it's first international, we called them global gatherings, was in Minneapolis, actually, in 1991. Yes, and we called it a Clout of Witnesses. (laughs) Playing on a Cloud of Witnesses. And, oh, I would say at least 100 of us were there, maybe more. People came from all over the country. It was a record breaking snow storm weekend. We actually got snowed into the, I think it was a congregational church, UCC church where we were meeting, but I can't remember that detail. And, we had some invitations to our, to lesbian women who, for us, were our foremothers, our elders in the movement. People who had, in some cases, suffered enormous persecution at the hands of the church. And, we sent invitations for them to be with us or to write to us, send messages. And, it was just an incredibly powerful time together for that weekend. And then, every two years Clout would have another international gathering. We had a newsletter. We took some actions in different places. We had regional gatherings. And so, we were still a fairly young organization when Re-Imagining took place. And, it stands for, Clout stands for Christian Lesbians Out Together. And so, two or three of us approached some folks on the representatives of planning committee, the Re-Imagining planning committee. I believe it was after that workshop. So, I think it was Friday afternoon. And, we said to them that we would like to have five to 10 minutes at most in a plenary session to make statements from the stage calling on people to wrestle with, think about, what it would mean to stand in solidarity with lesbian, bisexual, and transwomen in the church. And, those representatives, this is my memory, were very hesitant about that. Expressed great reservations. They said, among other things, that they were clear that this would cause consternation in some of their denominations. They also said that they purposely planned Re-Imagining, as I mentioned earlier, with no announcements from the stage, no spontaneous announcements. And, they said, "We've turned down other groups "and other people who wanted to make announcements. "So, why would we make this exception for you all?" Well, we persisted. That logistical reason was not sufficient for us. (laughs) My memory is that those women said, "We need to gather "as a whole planning committee and we've really "got to ponder this. "We can't give you an answer right now." Hoping that it was going to take place the Clout folks asked me, I was co-coordinator of Clout at that time, and they asked me to be the spokesperson if it came to pass. So, I remember beginning to make notes about what I might say. Still waiting for the word whether it was going to take place. I don't recall whether we contemplated seizing the stage like if they said no. I really don't, I just don't recall and that's one of the things I wish there were others gathered here with me right now, maybe somebody else would have a different memory about that. But, it was either very late that night or early Saturday morning that a couple of the people from the planning committee came to us and they said, "Okay, you can have "about nine minutes. "But, we want it to be very clear that it "would be wholly unofficial." That they were not sponsoring our statement. And that, none of them could introduce us or stand on the stage with us. And, I remember one of the committee members turning to me and saying, "If I were to stand "on that stage with you, Melanie, I would lose my job." Which I do not minimize that statement. I knew, we knew there was a lot at stake here but their response, her response and so forth only made it clearer to us why we were asking to do what we were asking. Because, things were that oppressive, actually within mainline Christandom in 1993 in denominations like The Presbyterian Church USA, United Methodist Church, and so forth and so on. So, what they said was that it seemed best to them that I would come to the podium after the last speaker on Saturday morning. And, that speaker was Mercy Amba Oduyoye, am I pronouncing her name right, Sherry? - Yeah, I think that's right, yep, mm-hmm. - And, my memory is that they said they would alert her that I would be coming to the microphone. But, I and the other Clout members, and I feel this to be true also of the planning committee people. we were very clear we wanted to honor her presentation and in no way intrude upon it. She was good theologian, really one of the foremost, at that time, voices of feminist theology coming out of an African nation. And we, in no way, wanted to intrude upon what she was doing. So, if I could, if this were a visual, a video tape that we're doing right now you would see me. So, what I did was I was standing with my sisters. (clears throat) Out by one of the doorways into one of the plenary that had a pathway to the center stage. And, what we knew was that when the speaker was concluding her remarks there would be perhaps standing ovation, I mean, there would be applause for some time. And then, the planning committee told us, and then there's a break. And, people will be getting into talking circles. So, people are going to break and they're going to be here to break because I think her name was Lois Wilson who was speaking before the speakers. So, people had been sitting a long time. So, you're gonna have, the planning committee goes, "Good luck, because you've gotta capture "the attention of the folks there when they're actually "ready to break." So, and they were not going to be anywhere present, the planning committee members. Nobody was going to introduce me besides myself. I'm going into all this detail because I think it's important in terms of what we were intending in a sense of not wanting to disrupt what was happening, but also to bring now a needed new or another dimension to the gathering. So, I had just a split second, really, when you get down to it, to get to that microphone. She was going to hand it to me, or she was going to step, she knew I was coming, the speaker. But, so what it meant is that some of lesbian truth is I started walking very quickly, I felt like I was running down that aisle as the applause was waning. And, got up on the stage, got to the podium and people were beginning to kind of, the applause now had ended. I didn't wanna speak before it had ended. But, I didn't want there to be a second when they're done applauding where 2200 people could get (vocalizes) talking to each other. I think some of that began to happen, but I then quickly introduced myself. I introduced myself and explained that I work with, that I'm a co-coordinator of Clout, an ecumenical movement celebrating the miracle of being lesbian, out, and Christian. Now, I will say that there were probably only about 10 people in that room that knew I was going to say anything. Other Clout members, maybe 10 or 12 or so and some members of the planning committee. And, the other night I remember that when I said those words, and I said them forcefully, trying to get people's attention. I introduced that I am Melanie Morrison, co-coordinator of Clout, Christian Lesbians Out Together, an ecumenical movement celebrating the miracle of being lesbian, out, and Christian. And, I said just that much some spontaneous whooping (laughs) woo-hoo, and ears went up around the room in different places. And then, I'm going to go ahead and read what I said. I recovered what I said. - Oh good. - Not very long. And then, I went on to say, "We are keenly, "painfully aware that the world is not safe "for lesbian women. "And, that often the least safe place is the church. "We call upon all of you, whatever your sexual orientation "not to leave this holy place without wrestling "with these questions. "What does it mean for us to be in solidarity "with lesbian, bisexual, and" I said transsexual because that was the language then, "transwomen in this decade? "And, how can we together re-imagine our churches "so that every woman may claim her voice, her gifts, "her loves and her wholeness. "Acknowledging that my white skin may put me "in a place where there is less at stake in coming out "I now invite every lesbian, bisexual, and transwoman "who is willing and able to come forward "and join hands encircling this platform facing out." This is my memory of what happened. Remembering saying it, I wanna say again, very few people, it wasn't that people were prepared for this. Very few people in the room knew this was going to happen. But, as I looked out over them those 2200 people it seemed to me, and I think this is hyperbolic, that somebody from every table in that room stood up and people just started streaming towards the podium, the stage. And, I had invited people to come and circle the stage facing out, and I remember they were encircling the stage several rows deep and spilling up onto the stage. It so far surpassed our expectation of who might respond and I saw people that I knew who, until that moment, were not out publicly in front of their district superintendent who may have been sitting there, or their bishop, and who knew, I mean they were taking enormous risks. But, they women started, and my intention was then once the women had come and encircled the stage that my intention was to ask those who were willing and able to stand, those who wished to stand in solidarity with us and were able to do that to rise and we would sing together. We're gonna keep on moving forward, never turning back, never turning back. And gosh, I didn't even get to that because as the women started streaming forward from all parts of the room people were on their feet. And, in my memory, I wish I could describe it as the roof of the convention center disappeared, I mean it went off with the the word is pandemonium that broke out. I could see tears streaming down the faces of people coming forward but also those who were at their table. I could see people have have their arms in the air. They were cheering these women on. Now, there may have been some people who remained seated who not for disability reasons, but I didn't see them. As they were coming down I was just saying, "yes, yes, yes," into the microphone cause I listened later to this on the Re-Imagining tapes. The whole thing from the clapping was just went, it was like thunderous. And, then I invited us to sing and my memory, is again, overwhelmingly everyone joined in to sing we're gonna keep on moving forward, never turning back, never turning back. We're going to keep on loving boldly. We're gonna keep on speaking truthfully. We're gonna keep on loving women, never turning back. We're gonna work for change together. Never turning back, never turning back. And, when we finished that song, all of us together, again we just, I don't know whether those talking circles every happened because people were hugging one another. And, the people coming to the podium to hug the women who had dared to come forward. I just remember it went on and on. I mean, the cheering and the hugging and the tears and the laughter. And, it was absolutely a sacred time. - How did it feel to be in the midst of all that, Melanie? - Oh, my goodness, I mean I know that I just felt carried out of, I felt very embodied, but also carried out of, I felt we, this is a palpable-- - Can I stop one second, I apologize. I'm getting another phone call, which is unfortunate. I think it's stopped. Go ahead, keep talking Melanie, sorry. It was a palpable? - I felt this was a palpable foreshadowing for all of us present. In the words of Doctor King, "The arc of the moral universe "bending towards justice." We were witnessing something of the kingdom here and now on Earth, as it is in Heaven. But, we were also witnessing a foreshadowing of what was going to happen in our denominations that this was too good, too right, too holy, not to be lived into. That was my feeling. I felt so full of hope, that moment, that people had expressed that kind of solidarity so visibly and audibly. And, I know that person after person came up to me but they were also coming up to all the women who had come onto the stage and offering, saying, "What can we do? "When the fallout comes, how can we be there?" So, it was, I remember that time when I grow discouraged I did for years afterwards, and in the aftermath I remember somebody, I was speaking somewhere and I must have been telling this story and I remember a man in the audience getting up and asking, "So Doctor Morrison," I wasn't a doctor yet, "Reverend Morrison," whatever I was called, "Reverend Morrison, looking back "and knowing now what you know now "of the furor and the controversy that erupted "because of what you did "do you regret doing that "because it caused such divisions within the church?" I remember saying to him, I asked him, "Were you present? "Were you present at Re-Imagining?" And he said, "No, I wasn't I just heard about it." And, I said, "If you had been there chances are "you would not be asking me this question. "I don't know, you would have yourself "experienced something so right "and so good that you might not "be asking me the questions. "But, maybe more to the point sir, no I do not regret "issuing that invitation because "it was not the source of division within the church. "The division long pre-existed that invitation. "The division had been caused by centuries of sexism, "heterosexism, and other systems "of privilege and oppression. "So no, my answer is no, I do not regret. "I know that some people have suffered enormously "in ways that I have not," I said to him. "Some people have lost their jobs, some people have lost "the chance to be ordained. "They've been targeted with inquisitional "kinds of gatherings. "And as they come up for ordination, "were you at Re-Imagining and so forth." I said, "So, I have not suffered as some other "people have, but I also know it was not "this invitation anymore that it was Doctor Delores Williams "Re-Imagining of Atonement that was the problem, "or that cost people their jobs. "It was the entrenched, still entrenched sexism "and heterosexism within the church." - Well, you have now, Melanie, brought us very nicely to the backlash. From what you said it sounded like there was already an awareness at Re-Imagining that there was going to be this kind of backlash. And that, you were already thinking about how to respond to it, is that correct? - Well yes, certainly the conversations, well folks who were part of Clout, we called Clout into being because there were many lesbian women who could not be ordained, could not be safely out within the church. I mean, we knew the kind of possible backlash for people. And, the planning committee members, their hesitance about letting us be on the stage, letting me come to the stage was also signified their fear already of backlash. Now, this was but one piece of the backlash. My memory of the backlash or the furor that erupted within particularly like the United Methodist Church, The Presbyterian Churches USA was caused by people who were in attendance and, I guess were in attendance, and then quickly published their interpretation of what had happened at Re-Imagining. And so, there was a kind of inquisition spirit happening in different places. And, the focus of the furor was fourfold at least. As I kept seeing it articulated by those who were in distress, not by the planners, or most of us who were present there. And, that was around language for God, like Sophia, language, the ritual of milk and honey, even though that has profound ancient roots within both Judaism and Christianity, the critique of atonement theology, and then the what those folks called the celebration of the sinful homosexual lifestyle. And so, at times in those publications they quoted snippets from what I had said. And, I guess I don't know that I anticipated, I didn't have any way of knowing. I'm not sure anyone knew that the furor would be as fierce as it was. So, I remember, and I don't remember exactly when it was, but not long after Re-Imagining, I was sound asleep and my sister Stephanie called me from Cleveland and said, "Turn on Nightline, turn on Nightline. "They've got your voice on Nightline." And, I couldn't find where the TV was for long enough to see it. Ted Koppel was talking about Re-Imagining. And then, the 700 Club played a clip of what I said and other things from Delores Williams. And then, there were all these publications that started coming out. Stuff like the Presbyterian Layman, The Good News, Hopes Within United Methodist Church which were publicizing what had happens, publishing their interpretation and what had happened. I don't think that even though I found it profoundly important that people were singing and the workshops and the plenary sessions. And, yeah I was ecstatic about what I was hearing. I didn't necessarily think it would create the kind of backlash it did. Now, it didn't, as much in my own denomination, the United Church of Christ. So, I have a bit more sheltered life there in the United Church of Christ, but also, it had to be said that partly why that backlash happened within the United Methodist and the Presbyterians is because they were also contributors, the Presbyterian Church, for example. Like Marianne Lundy served on the planning committee and was able, I think, if I'm not mistaken, to get funds of support through the Presbyterian Women and so forth. I don't think the United Church of Christ had a central role in planning it, but I didn't know the answer to that. So, I do remember writing something for Faith Johnson who had been working with us on the board, what was then the board for homeland ministries, in the United Church for Christ writing a document for her about my experience at Re-Imagining that might be used in case there was backlash within the United Church of Christ. On the sort of flip side of all of that and not to minimize what people suffered, because I don't in any way minimize the cost, what was at stake for some people, the cost for them in terms of employment, another thing that I did not suffer. So, I don't minimize that. And yet also, I remember feeling like wow, this is an incredible testimony to how powerful theological work can be in the world. It's like the Gospels are just like women speaking in the early church. And then, texts maybe attributed to Paul or others saying, "Women should be silent in the church," Elizabeth Schusler for your own said it's written about all those texts that got into the new testament of the Christian Scriptures about women not speaking and not having authority over men. But, those were all a reaction to women speaking and claiming authority and the power of that. So, the backlash, the backlash comes as it has happened now in terms of white supremacy, and recent elections and what were seeing backlash to the meaning of the first black president and stuff. It's also a testimony to the power of change that has been wrought. And so, I felt not to minimize the suffering I also thought this is an incredible testament, if those of us who sometimes feel ourselves on the margins of the church think that the church has no more work in the world as a change agent Re-Imagining is a testimony to something very different than that. Re-Imagining is really a testimony to the power, the Earth shaking power of women Re-Imagining and theology and spirituality. I didn't think it was only bad news, I mean that there was a lot of good news sort of at the heart of the backlash. There was one thing that happened, I feel it's insignificant in contrast to what to some people experienced by way of loss of jobs and so forth after Re-Imagining, but I will say I just wanna tell this one story of something at Leaven, that my mother and I experienced as backlash, tangible backlash from Re-Imagining. We, in our work with Leaven, the non-profit that we were directors of, we were invited to lead retreats for clergy women in different parts of the country and in different denominations. And, a few months before Re-Imagining we got an invitation from some RCA clergywomen, Reform Church of America clergywomen. And, I don't know if this is accurate, my memory is that they were asking us to lead the first ever retreat for RCA clergywomen. That may not be true, they may have had prior ones, but it was going to be a significant event for bringing, because it was still in 1993, I don't know what the percentage was, but it was a small percent of all the clergy in the RCA were women. And, they felt, many of them felt very isolated in their churches in different parts of the country and they were longing to come together. We felt deeply honored. That is not our denomination. They had heard from other clergywomen about the retreats that we lead and so they asked us to come. They wanted us to provide leadership for a two or three day retreat. And, it was going to be I think it was at Western Seminary in Holland, Michigan which is an RCA seminary. They were very excited about, they were calling it Sisters in a Strange Land. And, I kind of wondered about using that title because that was the title we used for an event, a retreat for Christian lesbians we were holding annually. So, I said, "now be careful, 'cause that's a," They said, "Oh no, we just loved that "Sisters in a Strange Land, that's how we feel "within the RCA." So it was, Sisters in a Strange Land, a retreat for RCA clergywomen something like that. Okay, fine, feel free to use the title. It was gonna, I don't remember exactly when it was gonna but several months, a few months after Re-Imagining. Several weeks after Re-Imagining I get a phone call from a representative from the commission for women of the RCA, the Reform Church of America. And she was, I think, located in New York. And she said, "Hello Melanie, thank you for all "the work you've done. "We're providing financial support for Sisters "in a Strange Land, that retreat that's going to happen. "And, we thank you and your mother so much "for all the work you've done "in helping to design this but we have decided "that we, on site, we're going to use other facilitators." And so, I said, "Excuse me, "are you calling me right now to say that "we're being dismissed, fired? "You're terminating a contract we have?" She said, "yeah." I said "Well, do the clergywomen who've been planning "with us know about this?" "Well, they will shortly." - Oh my goodness. - Uh-huh. And I said, "Could I ask you please what this is about?" Now Sherry, I had a hunch but I wasn't going to do her work for her. I said, (laughs) "Can I ask what is this abrupt announcement? "We're very surprised, we're very excited to them. "We're honored to have been asked. "We've done some great, laid some great groundwork, "got this thing designed with these clergywomen "and why are you calling with this news?" "Well, we just," I don't know, she kind of tried to walk around the edges and not name it. I said, "I would like you to be, please, direct with me now. "What's going on?" And, she said, "Well, we are aware "that you work with Clout." I thought, "How in the world did she know this?" And then, I was like, oh my goodness. I'll bet there's some women from the Commission for Women sitting at Re-Imagining when I began speaking. This is my imagination, she didn't say all that. This is my imagination that they thought to themselves and sitting there, "We know that name Melanie Morrison, "Oh we know that name, how do we know? "Oh, my goodness "she's one of the leaders of this retreat." She finally said, I asked her, "Well, how do you "know about Clout?" And she goes, "Well, we know that you spoke "at Re-Imagining and we know," and then she said things like, I have to be a little careful here. But, this was 25 years ago. She had actually, she said, "We have to be really careful about "we're going to have seminarians there. "We need to protect our seminarians and so forth." I said, "you don't even know what we're going to be "presenting at this." Anyway, so as soon as I got off the phone with her I called the clergywoman who had been working most closely with us, who had initially contacted us. Then, she was enraged to hear, from me, that wasn't the commission and lodged a protest and took, I don't know whether that retreat ever took place. There was talk for a while among the clergywomen about they had asked us, "Would you consider "leading a retreat in exile in the same town "that we'll just leave the commission there "at the Seminary, we'll find a little location. "And, we will exit that and leave them holding "the bag financially. "Would you lead a retreat?" We said, "Sure, we'd do that with you." And, that never came to pass. And, I don't know what finally happened with that retreat. That was one small piece of fall out. But, I certainly heard from all kinds of people throughout the country in different denominations about the backlash that was going on and how my name was being invoked or Clout's was and so forth. And I'll just say it's kind of insignificant but strange that what got attributed to me in different places was actually sometimes what I really said there fell out of like what was said in the Christian Sentry about what took place and the protests that were being lodged add it that Melanie Morrison prayed to Mauna, M-a-u-n-a, our creator. Now, I think that that was indeed a prayer that was issued, but was not by me. But, that kind of got attached to me and showed up in lots of different publications that I had said that prayer. I in no way wanted to be dismissive of that Earth centered prayer, as I remember it. But, I did let it be known some places that no that's not what I did, but here's the speech I did give. (laughs) In the full text of wanting to carry our witness forth. - Wonderful, oh Melanie this is great. I was wondering, what do you think, I know it's 25 years later, almost, what do you think is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining as we look back on it? - Well, I think that I know that I was so thrilled at the time that different communities that were doing important Re-Imagining work were brought together in that one place. So, women from the Philippians and from the continent of Africa and from different geographical locations also women of color, different communities of color and white women doing feminist theology and such, that we were in the same place sharing more deeply, in some cases from each other and the challenges that were being posed to each other. I mean, that was a wonderful gift of Re-Imagining. And, I think that I know that I would hear in years afterwards that the movement was continuing because people, such as yourself, who would, you were carrying on these Re-Imagining communities so that new generations of women who were hungry for Re-Imagining church and Re-Imagining God, Re-Imagining Jesus, Re-Imagining spirit and so on and so forth, that there was a place and a memory of a place that they could feel some anchoring in. So, I think that's been a tremendous contribution. - Thank you, a couple of final questions here. What do you think Re-Imagining means today? And, I don't mean specifically the Re-Imagining community, but what needs to be re-imagined today? - Oh my. (laughs) - It's a tough question, I know. - Yeah. - Well, you're doing in your Allies for Change it seems like you're working to do those kind of changes. - Some of the work, I mean most of the work that I do with Allies for Change that is work it's anti-racism education and consulting and so forth. Most of it is done with colleagues of color in multi-racial spaces. I have also, for 23 years, been co-facilitating something called Doing Our Own Work. Fixed day, intensive, anti-racism seminar for white people. Because, it was our experience actually, actually in 1994 we launched Doing Our Own Work. So, about the same historical epoch, and era as Re-Imagining. We launched Doing Our Own Work at the encouragement of colleagues and friends of color who said, "I am just weary of educating white people. "It's really time for you all to do your own work. "But, also do your own work in helping each other "move through the places where you so frequently "get stuck, in places of denial, fear, "greed, guilt, shame. "That work is yours not ours. "And yes, it's really important that you show up "along side us, in solidarity with us, but how you "show up is also very important. "So, you all need to do some of that work "to come up to speed, to dive deep. "Ask, how do you feel about being white. "What does it mean to be white?" So, I feel like some of that re-imagining, re-inventing what it means to be anti-racist, white people to understand that racism is our history, the history that our ancestors gave to birth to white supremacy. And that we do some really deep work around re-imagining and this is I am embodied and here I have many identities in this body and one of them is that I am a white woman. So, I re-present that in every space I move into, and how I re-present that matters profoundly. So that's, I don't know if I have said it in the way adequately, but that's some of the work that's most important to me right now is to first and foremost to dismantle structural racism and the devastating toll it still has on communities of color and people of color. That's the most important work. But also then, to be asking how can we as white people show up in this struggle in better ways so that we might really be co-conspirators and accomplices in this work that is unfortunately, it is a lot, it's so, so, so much work yet to be done. - Thank you, thank you. One last question, we have a Re-Imagining website that is set up and it includes, you mentioned listening to the cassettes. We are in the process of digitizing all the conferences, the first few are on there including 1993. And, it includes the presenters and the rituals so people can now listen to them. We also have resources on there. We have events, we're planning several celebrations for 2018, which is the 25th anniversary. And, I'm just wondering if you have thoughts about what would be helpful to include in a website like this resources or other things that might be useful to people? - Is this something I can get back to you? - You sure can, yes, I kind of sprang that, absolutely yes. You don't need to answer right now. - I'd like to ponder that question. - Sure, of course. - And, I'd like to see what is there now and what you're fashioning and then maybe make suggestions, yes. - That would be wonderful I will email you the URL so you can kind of look at it and let me know what you would suggest to include. That would be wonderful. And finally Melanie, is there anything we haven't discussed that you would like to add? - I don't know of anything, no, I really have deeply appreciated this conversation and the opportunity to search for some of my files and to go into the remembering the experience of being there. So, it' been really good to remember what it meant to me then and what it continues to mean. So thank you, thanks for this invitation, Sherry. - Thank you, Melanie. - Thank you for the work you're doing. I have just completed a book that I spent nearly 10 years writing, researching and writing. It's going to be published by Duke University Press next year. It's historical narrative mostly, so I have spent a lot of time in archives and my appreciation for the people who archive materials and for the fact that archives exist and for archivists is enormous, and for historians. In doing that work I'm just so grateful and so I'm very grateful to you and others for putting this together for our collective remembrance. - Yes thank you, and I have come to appreciate archivists and archivists as well. What is the title of your book? Does it have a title yet, Melanie? - Yes, it's called Murder on Shades Mountain: the Legal Lynching of Willie Peterson and the Struggle for Justice in Jim Crow Birmingham. - Oh, I did see that on the website. That sounds fascinating, Melanie, I'll have to look for that. - Okay. - Great. I'm gonna turn off the recording now and so just give me a second.