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Melanie, thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed.
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And, I wondered if I could start with
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some background material.
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First of all if you could say and spell your name.
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Yes, Melanie M-e-l
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a-n-I-e.
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My middle initial is S, Schulten.
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And my last name Morrison,
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m-o-r-r-i-s-o-n.
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And, I'd appreciate your including my middle initial
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because there are other Melanie Morrisons,
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I have learned.
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One in particular who does work, not unlike mine,
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and we've been confused for each other.
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Well, that's very helpful to know, thank you.
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We will definitely do that.
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Now, Melanie are you lay or clergy.
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I am clergy in the United Church of Christ.
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Great, and Melanie when and where were you born?
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Chicago, Illinois April third, 1949.
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Great, and where did you go to school,
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graduate or divinity school?
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I got a bachelor in arts from Beloit College.
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A master of divinity from Yale Divinity School.
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And, a PhD from the University of Groningen,
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G-r-o-n-I-n-g-e-n
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in the Netherlands.
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And thank you for spelling that.
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What work or ministry were you doing at the time
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of Re-Imagining, Melanie?
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I was, in 1993,
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I had just left
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part time ministry.
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I was a founder, a co-founder,
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co-pastor of a new church start in Kalamazoo, Michigan
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that began in 1988.
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I worked in that ministry for five years, had left earlier
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in 1993, but the church was
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Phoenix Community Church.
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It later became a part of the United Church of Christ.
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And, Phoenix Community Church was a new church
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started in 1988 because of,
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there were some of us here in Michigan
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who were feeling the time had come to launch
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a new congregation that was particularly, explicitly
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welcoming of lesbian, gay, bisexual,
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and transgendered people.
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So, it began in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
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It was actually the very first local congregation
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in southwest Michigan that was explicitly,
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Christian congregation, that was explicitly welcoming
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of LGBT people.
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I left that part time ministry
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because I wanted to work full time with another
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non-parish ministry that I had begun with
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my colleague and mother,
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Eleanor Morrison in 1987.
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And, that was a small non-profit called Leaven,
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like leaven like yeast.
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Like the stuff that makes bread rise.
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Leaven, its initial mission
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was to provide education,
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training, and resources in the areas of
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spiritual development, feminism, and sexual justice.
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I worked with my mother who was also ordained
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in the United Church of Christ, and a sexuality educator.
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Had worked at Michigan State University for a number
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of years in sexuality education,
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and an author of several books about teaching
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human sexuality at the university level.
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We started Leaven,
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as I said, in 1987 and we worked together for 17 years.
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And, Leaven is no longer in existence, but was a vibrant,
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vital organization for almost 30 years.
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That is impressive, and working with your mother,
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go ahead.
Yeah, excuse me.
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It was about 25 years that Leaven was in existence.
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Out of Leaven
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we began in 1995 the Leaven Center
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in mid Michigan located between Lancing
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and Grand Rapids, Michigan.
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It was a retreat and study center.
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And, the Leaven Center
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we did that ministry,
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I and my partner, April Allison,
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and the Leaven Board, and with my colleague
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and mother Eleanor Morrison.
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We launched the Leaven Center, which was in existence
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oh goodness, for about, all together,
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about 17 years.
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Unfortunately, it too is no longer in existence.
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Did Allies for Change come directly
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after that, your current?
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Yeah, so after I left as director of the Leaven Center
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at the end of 2007
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because I wanted to return to full time
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facilitation of groups.
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And, I also wanted to return to writing.
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The work at the Leaven Center was extraordinarily
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meaningful and important work.
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It was also very exhausting and never ending work
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as the administrator of that retreat center
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in trying to keep it afloat.
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And so, I wanted to return, again,
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to the kinds of work that actually my mother
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and I were doing together which was group facilitation
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and educational events.
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And, I particularly wanted to focus on what is really
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my deepest calling and passion and that is
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racial justice education.
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So, I left the Leaven Center to launch Allies for Change
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which is a network of social justice educators
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or we sometimes call ourselves anti-oppression educators.
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That is, oh go ahead.
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Allies for Change has been in existence since 2008.
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Thank you so much.
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And Melanie, do you recall how and when you first
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became aware of feminist theology?
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Oh goodness.
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Well, I remember when Rosemary Radford Ruether
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published I think it was The Radical Kingdom,
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one of her first books.
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And, I was senior in college at the time.
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And, I remember reading it and
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being just, (laughs)
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it was so important to me.
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I think I really returned with greater fervor
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to feminist theology than in seminary
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which was in the late 70s.
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After I left college I went to live for three
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and a half years at Koinonia Farm in southwest Georgia.
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And, with someone who went to seminary out
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of that experience.
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And, became very involved in
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wanting to at first, I was studying
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Greek and Hebrew so that I could do exegesis
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and re-imagining texts.
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I took courses, I was also enrolled for a while, in Boston.
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I took course with Phyllis Trible,
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the Texts of Terror and so forth.
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And then, at Yale Divinity school, also, was studying
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feminist theology and that was in the late 70s.
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So, I think that's when it was really speaking to me,
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beginning to really speak deeply to me,
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and become a framework for
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my own preaching and my own sense of,
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the theological limbs I was bringing to world.
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I will add that
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both feminist theology and lesbian feminist theology
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became very important to me as well as womanist theology
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being created by scholars like Deloris Williams,
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also very important to me.
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Thank you, that's very helpful.
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If we could move to the Re-Imagining community,
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or to Re-Imagining conference could you talk about,
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I know you were involved, attended and were involved
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in the 1993 conference.
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Can you start with what led you to your initial
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involvement in the conference?
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Yes, I can't recall exactly how we heard about it.
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That was at the time, with my mother
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Eleanor Morrison, we were co-directors of Leaven.
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And, we were offering eight month seminars for women
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entitled In Our Own Voice, Women Reshaping
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Theology and Spirituality.
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So, we were doing feminist and womanist theology
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in a grassroots kind of way.
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Bringing women together from around Michigan
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for these gatherings, this seminar.
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And, several of us from that seminar so I'm remembering
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accurately decided we didn't necessarily travel together,
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but thought let's go to this Re-Imagining conference.
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Because, it sounds very much like this will feed
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the work we're doing here in Michigan as women
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re-imagining theology and spirituality.
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So, that's what, at the same time, I wanted to mention
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this too, my mother and I had been,
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were co-authoring a 10 session
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human sexuality curriculum
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for the United Church of Christ called
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Created in God's Image.
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And, it just, it felt to us, both the seminars
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we were offering through Leaven and this work on
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Created In God's Image that attending Re-Imagining
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with the announced speakers that were going to be there
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it just felt like something we couldn't miss,
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we simply couldn't miss.
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I wanna say, parenthetically, that
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in the aftermath of Re-Imagining when we
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saw statements like the statement from
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retired presiding United Methodist Bishop Earl Hunt
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who, parenthetically, was a friend and colleague of my
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mother's father, who was a district intendant.
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Now, he was no longer alive at the time of Re-Imagining,
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but they were friends and colleagues.
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He's Earl Hunt, so my mother knew Earl Hunt
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when she was growing up.
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Anyway, when we saw that he had said,
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in great distress about Re-Imagining,
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"No comparable heresy has appeared
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"in the church in the last 15 centuries."
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My mother and I had to laugh a bit and say,
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"Oh, my goodness aren't you glad that we attended one of
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"the most significant events in the last 15 centuries
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"of the Christian church?"
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(laughs)
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Now, we took that and we registered for this.
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And surely, also when we were present,
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even though our analysis was not the same as Bishop Hunt's
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we knew we were attending something that
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was profoundly significant.
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So, so glad that we were there.
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That is wonderful.
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Now, I know it's been almost 25 years now,
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but I would love to hear about your memories of the event.
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Well thank you, yeah.
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Okay, these are some of the things that really
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stand out for me.
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As someone who has helped to plan conferences
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and who has attended many, many
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conferences through the years
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I was in awe of the planning and orchestration
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of the Re-Imagining Conference.
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I don't know how long that planning committee
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worked together before launching Re-Imagining
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but I thought it was impeccably planned and orchestrated.
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When I think about things like this, this is things
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that I remember that we sat
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at tables that were purposely,
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the location of our table group
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was intentionally moved to different locations each day.
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And, I remember having searched for
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our folks, our table.
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It was the intentionality in that was so that none of us
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of the participants, and it had gotten into 2200 of us
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who were present, that none of us would only be
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on the margins
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in those plenary gatherings.
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So, that we would move closer to the central stage
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and podium, at times we would,
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we were moved back at other times.
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I just thought that alone was brilliant
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in terms of equalizing the experience for everyone.
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I also saw the transparent, light weight
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podium that the speakers spoke from.
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I remember the speakers picking it up and moving it
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during their speeches.
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This is, again, when we were all together
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in plenary sessions.
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So that, during the course of their speech they
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could be facing every part of the room
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at some point.
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Once again, so that some people, because that was
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in the center of the room, so that it wouldn't be
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the case that some people would always be seeing
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the back of the speakers.
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I vividly remember early on
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that a blessing was sung for a speaker
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and then for each successive speaker we sang,
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"Bless Sophia," as a way
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all of us of commissioning and blessing each speaker
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which I thought was beautiful.
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I remember the artists working on large banners
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while speakers were talking in the plenary sessions.
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I remember art materials at the tables and
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a paper table cloth so that we could draw and do things
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with our hands while presentations were happening.
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And, how that was also a gift to people who need to do that
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to be able to concentrate better.
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I remember there being no announcements from the podium
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from the stage.
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I don't quite remember whether we got the announcements
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like they were posted or were given to us in printed form.
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I'm not quite remembering that, but I distinctly,
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and I have reason to remember this also, for purposes
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of the negotiations later with the planning committee.
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But, that meaning that
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we went we moved from
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height to height to height.
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I mean, we moved from one stunning speaker
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right into the next stunning speaker.
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I mean, there was singing.
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There was liturgy.
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It wasn't just speeches.
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And, it was very multi-media.
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But, it wasn't interrupted by that more kind of
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logistical announcement kind of thing,
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which I also thought was really, really helpful
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and moved things along.
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I remember that it was a spectacular
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and beautifully diverse group of
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presenters and presentations.
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Those in the plenary sessions and in the four main
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groups sessions, I don't remember what they were called,
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where we would go into, like 500 of us would choose
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like Re-Imagining Jesus.
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I know that was the one I attended with Deloreds Williams,
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Barbara Lundblad so forth and speakers.
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I think it was when we got into, broke into those
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smaller constellations I knew there were very
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hard choices because I wanted to hear every single speaker
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at that conference.
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00:20:10.644 --> 00:20:14.390
And, I would say, just for me personally two of
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the presentations that
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00:20:20.290 --> 00:20:23.290
were most stirring and stand out
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00:20:23.290 --> 00:20:26.934
for me to this day I will never forget.
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00:20:26.934 --> 00:20:30.843
Delores Williams, Womanist Re-Imagining of Atonement.
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I felt, sitting there, that I was,
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it was what the Quakers would call a covered meeting.
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The presence of the spirit it was
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both content and process, her passion in delivering it.
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And, just the gift of being there I will never forget.
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And, a similar sense when
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00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:08.400
Rita Nakashima Brock gave her plenary address, I believe
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00:21:08.650 --> 00:21:10.483
it was on Re-Imaging God.
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My mother and I then, subsequently, have used
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those texts and tapes for years
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00:21:23.650 --> 00:21:28.420
in our Leaven seminars, in our own voice seminars.
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We took those back to
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00:21:33.600 --> 00:21:37.453
Michigan and have listened to them over and over.
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Not just those, but those are two that
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really stand out for me.
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So, those are some of the things I most remember.
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Melanie, you remembered quite a bit, actually.
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That was great.
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Of course, it was also as is the case
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with these kinds of events, it was also an
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event was reunion time with friends
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00:22:03.940 --> 00:22:07.023
from other parts of the country that I hadn't seen.
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It was just so happy to be there in Minneapolis
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with people that I loved and missed.
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So, that was also another aspect, of course.
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00:22:20.348 --> 00:22:23.120
Of course, now I know two ways, important ways
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00:22:23.120 --> 00:22:25.067
you were involved were the workshop.
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So, I wanna hear about that.
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And also, about the unofficial statement that was made.
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00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:32.730
And, I wanna hear about both of those.
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00:22:32.730 --> 00:22:35.191
Should we start with the workshop?
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00:22:35.191 --> 00:22:36.183
Sure, yes.
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00:22:39.280 --> 00:22:43.683
So, there were these, what did they call them?
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Multi-format options or something.
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00:22:49.180 --> 00:22:51.730
I mean, everything was re-imagined at Re-Imagining,
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including, I don't think they used the word workshop.
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00:22:56.589 --> 00:22:59.478
But, it was essentially a workshop.
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00:22:59.478 --> 00:23:01.776
Yeah, it was multi-format option group.
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(laughs)
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And the title of that group that
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00:23:08.930 --> 00:23:13.190
I led co-led with four others,
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I'll name them in just a moment,
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00:23:14.620 --> 00:23:18.513
was Listening With Our Hearts:
351
00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:23.983
Prophetic Voices of Lesbians in the Church.
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00:23:25.490 --> 00:23:30.490
And, I co-led that with Diane Christopherson,
353
00:23:32.252 --> 00:23:36.600
CathyAnn Beaty, Jeanine Spahr,
354
00:23:36.600 --> 00:23:38.123
and Nadean Bishop.
355
00:23:39.580 --> 00:23:41.730
I am sorry to interrupt, would you mind spelling
356
00:23:41.730 --> 00:23:44.953
the last names of, I know Nadean Bishop,
357
00:23:47.040 --> 00:23:49.100
and Spahr--
Of the other presenters?
358
00:23:49.100 --> 00:23:50.820
Yes.
Okay,
359
00:23:50.820 --> 00:23:55.820
Christofferson is c-h-r-i
360
00:23:55.860 --> 00:24:00.463
s-t-o-p-h-er-s-o-n.
361
00:24:02.515 --> 00:24:04.900
CathyAnn, let me just spell that, too.
362
00:24:04.900 --> 00:24:09.900
It's spelled C-a-t-h-y and then
363
00:24:10.870 --> 00:24:13.863
capital A-n-n but all one word.
364
00:24:15.943 --> 00:24:19.123
CathyAnn Beaty, B-e-a-t-y.
365
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:25.503
Jeanie Spar, S-p-a-h-r.
366
00:24:26.760 --> 00:24:30.280
And Nadine, N-a-d-e-a-n
367
00:24:30.280 --> 00:24:34.200
Bishop B-i-s-h-o-p.
368
00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:35.417
Thank you.
Sure.
369
00:24:37.199 --> 00:24:42.030
And, that group workshop
370
00:24:42.030 --> 00:24:44.890
was held on Friday, November fifth
371
00:24:45.750 --> 00:24:48.773
from 3:45 to 5:15.
372
00:24:51.550 --> 00:24:52.453
And, we shared,
373
00:24:56.903 --> 00:24:59.710
each of us, shared how we experienced
374
00:25:02.520 --> 00:25:06.080
lesbian women re-imagining
375
00:25:07.850 --> 00:25:12.850
theology and Christology, and so many different things.
376
00:25:12.860 --> 00:25:17.360
What the gists were, the theological re-imagining
377
00:25:17.360 --> 00:25:20.623
that lesbians were bringing as gifts to church.
378
00:25:26.020 --> 00:25:29.290
I recovered, I don't have the notes of what my
379
00:25:30.830 --> 00:25:35.280
co-presenters said that day.
380
00:25:35.280 --> 00:25:39.640
But, I did find just some scribbled notes
381
00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:41.280
of what I talked about.
382
00:25:41.280 --> 00:25:45.540
I'm not going to give you my whole spiel,
383
00:25:45.540 --> 00:25:46.680
these are just scribbled notes
384
00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:50.280
But, I talked about
385
00:25:52.350 --> 00:25:55.110
my experience, because I'd just come
386
00:25:55.110 --> 00:25:59.280
from five years of pastoring a church
387
00:26:00.940 --> 00:26:05.940
that was about 90% lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender.
388
00:26:06.250 --> 00:26:09.843
Only about 10% of people identified as heterosexual.
389
00:26:10.870 --> 00:26:13.130
And, so I shared some of my experience at
390
00:26:13.130 --> 00:26:14.360
Phoenix Community Church.
391
00:26:14.360 --> 00:26:18.740
But, I particularly was talking about
392
00:26:19.990 --> 00:26:24.990
some of the unique ways, as lesbians, how we come
393
00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:31.163
to sacred writings, including scripture.
394
00:26:33.600 --> 00:26:38.600
And, how we listen, what we hear because of the
395
00:26:38.800 --> 00:26:43.110
experience we bring, where we find
396
00:26:43.110 --> 00:26:46.563
holy writs, holy words.
397
00:26:53.156 --> 00:26:55.817
And, I'll just say, in terms of the where
398
00:26:58.100 --> 00:27:00.303
this is something I don't know, I know,
399
00:27:01.195 --> 00:27:03.945
I don't know that there was some spies at the workshop.
400
00:27:04.860 --> 00:27:07.400
We learned afterwards that there some people
401
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:10.880
who had come with the intent of them getting
402
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:15.780
the word out before the planners
403
00:27:15.780 --> 00:27:19.143
of Re-Imagining could get out intp the world
404
00:27:19.143 --> 00:27:20.453
what had happened there.
405
00:27:21.670 --> 00:27:26.670
People who'd come to really sabotage, I mean,
406
00:27:26.770 --> 00:27:30.170
in terms of their later publicity about what had happened.
407
00:27:30.170 --> 00:27:31.780
And so, I don't know whether there were people
408
00:27:31.780 --> 00:27:35.193
in that very workshop, I think there may have been,
409
00:27:36.570 --> 00:27:37.683
who were taking notes.
410
00:27:38.553 --> 00:27:43.330
And, some things that I said, I'm not saying,
411
00:27:43.330 --> 00:27:46.590
I'm not attributing it only to me, because there were other
412
00:27:46.590 --> 00:27:48.840
people who were saying similar things, but it felt like
413
00:27:48.840 --> 00:27:50.850
maybe some of us got into
414
00:27:52.730 --> 00:27:55.140
the furor that resulted.
415
00:27:55.140 --> 00:27:59.270
Because, I said things like in terms of
416
00:27:59.270 --> 00:28:03.850
the where do we find sacred texts.
417
00:28:03.850 --> 00:28:07.873
I said that we as lesbians know, by experience,
418
00:28:07.873 --> 00:28:10.123
that the canon is not closed.
419
00:28:11.140 --> 00:28:14.950
That it cannot be closed because we know
420
00:28:14.950 --> 00:28:16.620
we would be bereft
421
00:28:22.012 --> 00:28:25.095
if there were only, the only writings
422
00:28:26.790 --> 00:28:31.710
we considered sacred and holy were those in what
423
00:28:31.710 --> 00:28:34.950
has been canonized as The Bible
424
00:28:37.900 --> 00:28:40.940
we know we would be bereft if that were true.
425
00:28:40.940 --> 00:28:43.500
And, because we have encountered wisdom
426
00:28:44.570 --> 00:28:46.413
and sacred writing elsewhere.
427
00:28:47.630 --> 00:28:49.850
That The Bible, for us, as Christian lesbians
428
00:28:49.850 --> 00:28:53.980
is indeed the central source, but it is not enough.
429
00:28:53.980 --> 00:28:58.960
Because, it alone cannot bring us into right relationship
430
00:28:58.960 --> 00:28:59.913
with the Earth.
431
00:29:01.120 --> 00:29:04.460
It cannot bring us into right relationship
432
00:29:04.460 --> 00:29:09.083
with our sexual embodied selves
433
00:29:10.030 --> 00:29:15.030
as lesbians, that we need, we need the writings
434
00:29:15.140 --> 00:29:17.027
of Adrienne Rich, and Audrey Lorde,
435
00:29:17.027 --> 00:29:18.530
and Carter Heyward, and (mumbles)
436
00:29:18.530 --> 00:29:21.003
and so forth.
437
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:26.260
To place alongside
438
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:33.380
Ephesians and Corinthians and the Gospels and so forth.
439
00:29:33.380 --> 00:29:36.330
And that at Phoenix Community Church
440
00:29:38.360 --> 00:29:40.750
that we would announce that we were reading
441
00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:43.260
some sacred writings.
442
00:29:43.260 --> 00:29:46.837
And so we would say, "I read to you from the prophet Isiah."
443
00:29:48.380 --> 00:29:52.627
And then, we would follow up with, "I read to you
444
00:29:52.627 --> 00:29:55.180
"from the prophet Audrey Lorde."
445
00:29:55.180 --> 00:29:57.447
And, after reading both of those texts we'd say,
446
00:29:57.447 --> 00:30:01.050
"Thanks be to God for this holy word."
447
00:30:01.050 --> 00:30:03.575
So, that's some of what I talked about.
448
00:30:03.575 --> 00:30:04.408
(laughs)
449
00:30:04.408 --> 00:30:06.058
I truly came through all of that.
450
00:30:09.997 --> 00:30:14.710
Again, this is my memory, that it was at that workshop
451
00:30:15.620 --> 00:30:19.247
I have in scribbled notes that I asked
452
00:30:19.247 --> 00:30:21.017
and I don't know that I was the
453
00:30:22.340 --> 00:30:26.650
I said I am longing for there to be someone
454
00:30:27.580 --> 00:30:32.483
in our plenary sessions who speaks in a lesbian voice,
455
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:35.580
who brings some of this perspective.
456
00:30:35.580 --> 00:30:40.580
We were happy and grateful that there were workshops
457
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:44.600
where lesbians were speaking
458
00:30:46.090 --> 00:30:48.060
in our own voices.
459
00:30:48.060 --> 00:30:51.800
But, when it came to all of us being together
460
00:30:52.750 --> 00:30:57.750
in the plenary sessions I think we knew, because we knew,
461
00:30:58.740 --> 00:31:01.850
personally knew some of the plenary speakers that
462
00:31:01.850 --> 00:31:06.850
there were lesbian women speaking in the plenary sessions,
463
00:31:07.540 --> 00:31:12.540
but thus far in the first two days of the conference,
464
00:31:12.740 --> 00:31:17.740
so this workshop we have Listening to our Hearts,
465
00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:20.160
Prophetic Voices of Lesbians in the Church,
466
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:22.240
that took place Friday afternoon.
467
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:26.650
So, there had been two days now of speakers,
468
00:31:26.650 --> 00:31:29.840
thus far in those first two days of the conference,
469
00:31:29.840 --> 00:31:34.070
when we were all gathered together none of the plenary
470
00:31:34.070 --> 00:31:38.020
speakers was speaking openly in a lesbian voice,
471
00:31:38.020 --> 00:31:42.840
or perhaps just as significantly none of the speakers
472
00:31:42.840 --> 00:31:47.840
thus far had called that entire gathered community
473
00:31:47.930 --> 00:31:52.290
to ask what it's mean to stand in solidarity
474
00:31:53.320 --> 00:31:55.253
with lesbian, bi, and transwomen.
475
00:31:57.810 --> 00:32:02.080
And, so my memory is that is was out of that workshop
476
00:32:02.080 --> 00:32:05.803
when that question was kind of raised, the longing
477
00:32:05.803 --> 00:32:08.880
that that would happen, that some of us stayed
478
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:13.880
after the workshop and began scheming about
479
00:32:13.966 --> 00:32:16.133
(laughs)
480
00:32:19.510 --> 00:32:22.380
how we're gonna find out whether it's gonna happen or
481
00:32:24.940 --> 00:32:29.760
it's just not okay given the fact that here you had
482
00:32:29.760 --> 00:32:32.860
at this Re-Imagining conference
483
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:37.860
people gathered from just about every
484
00:32:37.860 --> 00:32:40.343
conceivable Christian denomination.
485
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.900
And, that still, in 1993
486
00:32:48.590 --> 00:32:51.820
most of those Christian denominations
487
00:32:54.690 --> 00:32:58.430
had disciplines or policies
488
00:32:59.890 --> 00:33:02.800
that prohibited the ordination
489
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:08.920
of openly, of people who are out
490
00:33:09.630 --> 00:33:13.780
and open about their sexual orientation, about being lesbian
491
00:33:14.810 --> 00:33:17.030
or gay, or bisexual, or trans.
492
00:33:17.030 --> 00:33:21.543
And, it just felt to us,
493
00:33:25.760 --> 00:33:29.843
this was here we are at the end of decade
494
00:33:31.150 --> 00:33:35.930
in solidarity of women and there's a significant
495
00:33:39.980 --> 00:33:41.590
part of that
496
00:33:46.910 --> 00:33:50.440
women, a significant community
497
00:33:52.490 --> 00:33:56.557
that is marginalized, excluded, oppressed
498
00:33:57.690 --> 00:33:59.320
still within the church.
499
00:33:59.320 --> 00:34:03.013
And, there's dead silence in the plenary about that.
500
00:34:05.350 --> 00:34:09.380
And so, I've now segued, as you can see,
501
00:34:09.380 --> 00:34:14.110
into your other question about the invitation
502
00:34:14.110 --> 00:34:16.950
that was offered from the podium.
503
00:34:16.950 --> 00:34:18.656
Shall I continue talking about that?
504
00:34:18.656 --> 00:34:20.417
Do you have anything else you wanted to ask?
505
00:34:20.417 --> 00:34:22.407
No, no this is wonderful, this is great.
506
00:34:22.407 --> 00:34:25.110
And, I assume you'll talk about the negotiation
507
00:34:25.110 --> 00:34:27.521
and then the experience of it, good.
508
00:34:27.521 --> 00:34:30.930
Just, of course, like everything else I've named
509
00:34:30.930 --> 00:34:33.490
to date, this is my memory.
510
00:34:33.490 --> 00:34:38.490
I wish, right here, right now, Jeanie Spahr,
511
00:34:38.790 --> 00:34:41.583
and Celise Berry, and so forth and so on,
512
00:34:42.430 --> 00:34:45.690
Barry Hahn and others were here sitting with me
513
00:34:45.690 --> 00:34:49.218
so that collectively we could better recreate
514
00:34:49.218 --> 00:34:50.730
how this came to past.
515
00:34:50.730 --> 00:34:52.443
So, this is just my memory.
516
00:34:55.139 --> 00:34:58.150
And, had my life not been so busy the last weeks
517
00:34:58.150 --> 00:35:00.350
I might have called some of those folks to check it out.
518
00:35:00.350 --> 00:35:04.150
But anyway, didn't have the time to do that.
519
00:35:04.150 --> 00:35:06.010
So, my memory is that
520
00:35:10.156 --> 00:35:13.453
two or three of us representatives from Clout,
521
00:35:15.570 --> 00:35:20.570
mow Clout was an organization,
522
00:35:21.060 --> 00:35:22.850
shall I say just a little bit about?
523
00:35:22.850 --> 00:35:24.720
Yes, please do.
524
00:35:24.720 --> 00:35:28.190
Yeah, so Clout was an organization
525
00:35:28.190 --> 00:35:31.420
that we began in 1990
526
00:35:34.300 --> 00:35:39.300
when at the invitation, actually, of Carter Heyward,
527
00:35:40.240 --> 00:35:42.370
CathyAnn Beaty, and myself
528
00:35:43.430 --> 00:35:48.270
10 lesbian women gathered in
529
00:35:48.270 --> 00:35:51.760
Deb Harrison's living room at Union Seminary
530
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:57.910
to talk about the fact,
531
00:35:57.910 --> 00:36:01.340
to talk about the possibility of starting
532
00:36:01.340 --> 00:36:05.020
a new organization of lesbians
533
00:36:05.020 --> 00:36:06.653
who would be really,
534
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:13.590
who would from the first moment be publicly out
535
00:36:15.430 --> 00:36:19.990
and that we would be challenging our respective
536
00:36:19.990 --> 00:36:24.987
denominations to really struggle more with
537
00:36:26.610 --> 00:36:30.710
policies that forbade the ordination of lesbians,
538
00:36:30.710 --> 00:36:33.080
of out lesbians, okay.
539
00:36:33.080 --> 00:36:37.390
And so, how it was started in
540
00:36:38.470 --> 00:36:42.130
1990, and it's first
541
00:36:43.510 --> 00:36:48.170
international, we called them global gatherings,
542
00:36:48.170 --> 00:36:50.423
was in Minneapolis, actually, in 1991.
543
00:36:52.630 --> 00:36:57.194
Yes, and we called it a Clout of Witnesses.
544
00:36:57.194 --> 00:36:59.870
(laughs)
545
00:36:59.870 --> 00:37:02.110
Playing on a Cloud of Witnesses.
546
00:37:02.110 --> 00:37:06.950
And, oh, I would say
547
00:37:06.950 --> 00:37:10.770
at least 100 of us were there, maybe more.
548
00:37:10.770 --> 00:37:12.300
People came from all over the country.
549
00:37:12.300 --> 00:37:17.270
It was a record breaking snow storm weekend.
550
00:37:17.270 --> 00:37:21.950
We actually got snowed into the, I think it was
551
00:37:21.950 --> 00:37:25.000
a congregational church, UCC church where we were meeting,
552
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:26.650
but I can't remember that detail.
553
00:37:27.810 --> 00:37:31.740
And, we had some
554
00:37:33.170 --> 00:37:37.350
invitations to our,
555
00:37:37.350 --> 00:37:40.500
to lesbian women who, for us,
556
00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:45.500
were our foremothers, our elders
557
00:37:46.140 --> 00:37:47.550
in the movement.
558
00:37:47.550 --> 00:37:52.340
People who had, in some cases, suffered enormous
559
00:37:52.340 --> 00:37:55.083
persecution at the hands of the church.
560
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:01.000
And, we sent invitations for them to be with us
561
00:38:02.460 --> 00:38:06.483
or to write to us, send messages.
562
00:38:07.340 --> 00:38:12.340
And, it was just an incredibly powerful time together
563
00:38:12.420 --> 00:38:13.573
for that weekend.
564
00:38:15.169 --> 00:38:17.500
And then, every two years Clout would have
565
00:38:17.500 --> 00:38:20.060
another international gathering.
566
00:38:20.060 --> 00:38:22.110
We had a newsletter.
567
00:38:22.110 --> 00:38:24.500
We took some actions in different places.
568
00:38:24.500 --> 00:38:26.233
We had regional gatherings.
569
00:38:28.620 --> 00:38:33.490
And so, we were still a fairly young
570
00:38:33.490 --> 00:38:37.273
organization when Re-Imagining took place.
571
00:38:39.780 --> 00:38:42.340
And, it stands for, Clout stands for
572
00:38:42.340 --> 00:38:45.933
Christian Lesbians Out Together.
573
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:53.840
And so, two or three of us approached
574
00:38:54.510 --> 00:38:58.220
some folks on the representatives of planning committee,
575
00:38:58.220 --> 00:39:00.860
the Re-Imagining planning committee.
576
00:39:00.860 --> 00:39:02.570
I believe it was after that workshop.
577
00:39:02.570 --> 00:39:05.053
So, I think it was Friday afternoon.
578
00:39:05.900 --> 00:39:10.680
And, we said to them that we would like to have
579
00:39:10.680 --> 00:39:13.090
five to 10 minutes at most
580
00:39:15.498 --> 00:39:18.630
in a plenary session to make statements
581
00:39:18.630 --> 00:39:23.630
from the stage calling on people to wrestle with,
582
00:39:24.110 --> 00:39:27.080
think about, what it would mean to stand in solidarity
583
00:39:27.080 --> 00:39:32.080
with lesbian, bisexual, and transwomen in the church.
584
00:39:32.879 --> 00:39:37.879
And, those representatives, this is my memory,
585
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:42.283
were very hesitant about that.
586
00:39:43.810 --> 00:39:45.260
Expressed great reservations.
587
00:39:47.260 --> 00:39:50.043
They said, among other things,
588
00:39:52.052 --> 00:39:56.360
that they were clear that this would cause
589
00:39:56.360 --> 00:40:00.340
consternation in some of their denominations.
590
00:40:00.340 --> 00:40:03.270
They also said that they purposely planned
591
00:40:03.270 --> 00:40:06.940
Re-Imagining, as I mentioned earlier, with no announcements
592
00:40:06.940 --> 00:40:10.090
from the stage, no spontaneous announcements.
593
00:40:10.090 --> 00:40:13.247
And, they said, "We've turned down other groups
594
00:40:13.247 --> 00:40:15.447
"and other people who wanted to make announcements.
595
00:40:15.447 --> 00:40:19.830
"So, why would we make this exception for you all?"
596
00:40:19.830 --> 00:40:21.513
Well, we persisted.
597
00:40:22.350 --> 00:40:24.847
That logistical reason was not sufficient for us.
598
00:40:24.847 --> 00:40:26.930
(laughs)
599
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:35.227
My memory is that those women said, "We need to gather
600
00:40:35.227 --> 00:40:37.007
"as a whole planning committee and we've really
601
00:40:37.007 --> 00:40:37.847
"got to ponder this.
602
00:40:37.847 --> 00:40:39.897
"We can't give you an answer right now."
603
00:40:44.420 --> 00:40:47.140
Hoping that it was going to take place
604
00:40:50.620 --> 00:40:55.360
the Clout folks asked me, I was co-coordinator of Clout
605
00:40:55.360 --> 00:41:00.360
at that time, and they asked me to be the spokesperson
606
00:41:01.120 --> 00:41:03.200
if it came to pass.
607
00:41:03.200 --> 00:41:06.250
So, I remember beginning to make notes about
608
00:41:06.250 --> 00:41:07.723
what I might say.
609
00:41:09.130 --> 00:41:11.870
Still waiting for the word whether it was going
610
00:41:11.870 --> 00:41:12.703
to take place.
611
00:41:13.770 --> 00:41:17.263
I don't recall whether we contemplated
612
00:41:21.170 --> 00:41:25.130
seizing the stage like if they said no.
613
00:41:25.130 --> 00:41:27.890
I really don't, I just don't recall and that's one of
614
00:41:27.890 --> 00:41:30.530
the things I wish there were others gathered here with me
615
00:41:30.530 --> 00:41:32.960
right now, maybe somebody else would have
616
00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:34.430
a different memory about that.
617
00:41:34.430 --> 00:41:39.022
But, it was either very late that night
618
00:41:39.022 --> 00:41:43.660
or early Saturday morning that a couple of the people
619
00:41:43.660 --> 00:41:46.710
from the planning committee came to us
620
00:41:46.710 --> 00:41:51.507
and they said, "Okay, you can have
621
00:41:51.507 --> 00:41:52.713
"about nine minutes.
622
00:41:54.787 --> 00:41:59.277
"But, we want it to be very clear that it
623
00:41:59.277 --> 00:42:02.837
"would be wholly unofficial."
624
00:42:04.070 --> 00:42:07.883
That they were not sponsoring our statement.
625
00:42:09.170 --> 00:42:12.820
And that, none of them could introduce us
626
00:42:14.080 --> 00:42:15.763
or stand on the stage with us.
627
00:42:17.602 --> 00:42:20.500
And, I remember one of the committee members
628
00:42:20.500 --> 00:42:23.577
turning to me and saying, "If I were to stand
629
00:42:23.577 --> 00:42:26.377
"on that stage with you, Melanie, I would lose my job."
630
00:42:27.940 --> 00:42:32.543
Which I do not minimize that statement.
631
00:42:34.555 --> 00:42:38.060
I knew, we knew there was a lot at stake here
632
00:42:38.060 --> 00:42:41.715
but their response, her response and so forth
633
00:42:41.715 --> 00:42:46.715
only made it clearer to us why we were asking to do
634
00:42:46.970 --> 00:42:48.123
what we were asking.
635
00:42:50.570 --> 00:42:52.990
Because, things were that
636
00:42:56.300 --> 00:42:59.050
oppressive, actually within mainline
637
00:42:59.050 --> 00:43:04.050
Christandom in 1993 in denominations
638
00:43:04.150 --> 00:43:07.874
like The Presbyterian Church USA, United Methodist Church,
639
00:43:07.874 --> 00:43:09.874
and so forth and so on.
640
00:43:09.874 --> 00:43:14.874
So, what they said was that it seemed best to them
641
00:43:18.010 --> 00:43:22.090
that I would come to the podium after the last speaker
642
00:43:22.090 --> 00:43:23.373
on Saturday morning.
643
00:43:26.460 --> 00:43:31.460
And, that speaker was Mercy Amba Oduyoye,
644
00:43:32.850 --> 00:43:35.698
am I pronouncing her name right, Sherry?
645
00:43:35.698 --> 00:43:40.698
Yeah, I think that's right, yep, mm-hmm.
646
00:43:41.725 --> 00:43:45.740
And, my memory is that they said they would alert her
647
00:43:46.940 --> 00:43:49.233
that I would be coming to the microphone.
648
00:43:50.580 --> 00:43:55.580
But, I and the other Clout members,
649
00:43:55.600 --> 00:43:58.890
and I feel this to be true also of the planning committee
650
00:43:58.890 --> 00:44:02.794
people. we were very clear
651
00:44:02.794 --> 00:44:07.240
we wanted to honor her presentation
652
00:44:07.240 --> 00:44:10.833
and in no way intrude upon it.
653
00:44:12.270 --> 00:44:16.593
She was good theologian,
654
00:44:17.930 --> 00:44:22.930
really one of the foremost, at that time,
655
00:44:23.450 --> 00:44:27.480
voices of feminist theology coming out of
656
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:28.910
an African nation.
657
00:44:28.910 --> 00:44:32.970
And we, in no way, wanted to intrude upon
658
00:44:32.970 --> 00:44:33.993
what she was doing.
659
00:44:35.810 --> 00:44:40.810
So, if I could,
660
00:44:40.910 --> 00:44:45.410
if this were a visual, a video tape that
661
00:44:45.410 --> 00:44:48.300
we're doing right now you would see me.
662
00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:53.300
So, what I did was I was standing with my sisters.
663
00:44:54.309 --> 00:44:56.560
(clears throat)
664
00:44:56.560 --> 00:45:00.650
Out by one of the doorways into one of the plenary
665
00:45:00.650 --> 00:45:04.333
that had a pathway to the center stage.
666
00:45:08.826 --> 00:45:13.670
And, what we knew was that when the speaker
667
00:45:13.670 --> 00:45:17.550
was concluding her remarks there would be
668
00:45:19.090 --> 00:45:21.910
perhaps standing ovation, I mean, there would be applause
669
00:45:21.910 --> 00:45:23.360
for some time.
670
00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:26.091
And then, the planning committee told us,
671
00:45:26.091 --> 00:45:28.375
and then there's a break.
672
00:45:28.375 --> 00:45:30.330
And, people will be getting into talking circles.
673
00:45:30.330 --> 00:45:31.570
So, people are going to break and they're going to
674
00:45:31.570 --> 00:45:35.520
be here to break because I think her name was Lois Wilson
675
00:45:35.520 --> 00:45:37.680
who was speaking before the speakers.
676
00:45:37.680 --> 00:45:39.895
So, people had been sitting a long time.
677
00:45:39.895 --> 00:45:43.423
So, you're gonna have, the planning committee
678
00:45:43.423 --> 00:45:47.017
goes, "Good luck, because you've gotta capture
679
00:45:47.017 --> 00:45:51.757
"the attention of the folks there when they're actually
680
00:45:51.757 --> 00:45:52.817
"ready to break."
681
00:45:53.810 --> 00:45:57.380
So, and they were not going to be anywhere present,
682
00:45:57.380 --> 00:45:59.400
the planning committee members.
683
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:02.683
Nobody was going to introduce me besides myself.
684
00:46:06.253 --> 00:46:08.720
I'm going into all this detail because I think
685
00:46:08.720 --> 00:46:10.610
it's important in terms of
686
00:46:12.920 --> 00:46:14.960
what we were intending
687
00:46:17.910 --> 00:46:20.640
in a sense of not wanting to disrupt
688
00:46:20.640 --> 00:46:23.870
what was happening, but also to bring now
689
00:46:23.870 --> 00:46:28.690
a needed new or another dimension
690
00:46:28.690 --> 00:46:29.680
to the gathering.
691
00:46:29.680 --> 00:46:34.372
So, I had just a split second, really,
692
00:46:34.372 --> 00:46:39.050
when you get down to it, to get to that microphone.
693
00:46:39.050 --> 00:46:42.880
She was going to hand it to me, or she was going to step,
694
00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:46.343
she knew I was coming, the speaker.
695
00:46:48.020 --> 00:46:52.300
But, so what it meant is that some of lesbian truth is
696
00:46:52.300 --> 00:46:56.910
I started walking very quickly, I felt like I was running
697
00:46:56.910 --> 00:47:01.803
down that aisle as the applause was waning.
698
00:47:03.720 --> 00:47:06.850
And, got up on the stage, got to the podium
699
00:47:06.850 --> 00:47:10.090
and people were beginning to kind of,
700
00:47:10.090 --> 00:47:11.960
the applause now had ended.
701
00:47:11.960 --> 00:47:15.010
I didn't wanna speak before it had ended.
702
00:47:15.010 --> 00:47:18.558
But, I didn't want there to be a second
703
00:47:18.558 --> 00:47:22.300
when they're done applauding where 2200 people
704
00:47:22.300 --> 00:47:25.430
could get (vocalizes) talking to each other.
705
00:47:25.430 --> 00:47:27.410
I think some of that began to happen,
706
00:47:27.410 --> 00:47:28.880
but I then
707
00:47:29.950 --> 00:47:34.950
quickly introduced myself.
708
00:47:37.543 --> 00:47:42.543
I introduced myself and explained that I work with,
709
00:47:43.090 --> 00:47:48.090
that I'm a co-coordinator of Clout, an ecumenical movement
710
00:47:48.440 --> 00:47:52.660
celebrating the miracle of being lesbian,
711
00:47:52.660 --> 00:47:54.363
out, and Christian.
712
00:47:55.260 --> 00:47:59.240
Now, I will say that
713
00:48:00.422 --> 00:48:03.270
there were probably only about 10 people
714
00:48:03.270 --> 00:48:06.583
in that room that knew I was going to say anything.
715
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:13.300
Other Clout members, maybe 10 or 12 or so
716
00:48:13.300 --> 00:48:15.623
and some members of the planning committee.
717
00:48:17.090 --> 00:48:22.090
And, the other night I remember that when I said
718
00:48:22.200 --> 00:48:24.550
those words, and I said them forcefully,
719
00:48:24.550 --> 00:48:26.991
trying to get people's attention.
720
00:48:26.991 --> 00:48:30.120
I introduced that I am Melanie Morrison, co-coordinator
721
00:48:30.120 --> 00:48:33.190
of Clout, Christian Lesbians Out Together,
722
00:48:33.190 --> 00:48:38.010
an ecumenical movement celebrating the miracle
723
00:48:38.010 --> 00:48:40.690
of being lesbian, out, and Christian.
724
00:48:40.690 --> 00:48:45.502
And, I said just that much some spontaneous whooping
725
00:48:45.502 --> 00:48:46.650
(laughs)
726
00:48:46.650 --> 00:48:50.601
woo-hoo, and ears went up around the room
727
00:48:50.601 --> 00:48:52.520
in different places.
728
00:48:56.357 --> 00:48:59.750
And then, I'm going to go ahead and read what I said.
729
00:48:59.750 --> 00:49:02.117
I recovered what I said.
Oh good.
730
00:49:02.117 --> 00:49:03.263
Not very long.
731
00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:09.480
And then, I went on to say, "We are keenly,
732
00:49:10.697 --> 00:49:15.697
"painfully aware that the world is not safe
733
00:49:15.837 --> 00:49:17.177
"for lesbian women.
734
00:49:17.177 --> 00:49:22.177
"And, that often the least safe place is the church.
735
00:49:23.977 --> 00:49:28.977
"We call upon all of you, whatever your sexual orientation
736
00:49:30.097 --> 00:49:34.757
"not to leave this holy place without wrestling
737
00:49:34.757 --> 00:49:36.003
"with these questions.
738
00:49:37.427 --> 00:49:41.977
"What does it mean for us to be in solidarity
739
00:49:41.977 --> 00:49:46.977
"with lesbian, bisexual, and" I said transsexual
740
00:49:47.330 --> 00:49:49.823
because that was the language then,
741
00:49:49.823 --> 00:49:52.343
"transwomen in this decade?
742
00:49:53.467 --> 00:49:58.437
"And, how can we together re-imagine our churches
743
00:49:58.437 --> 00:50:03.437
"so that every woman may claim her voice, her gifts,
744
00:50:03.497 --> 00:50:06.223
"her loves and her wholeness.
745
00:50:07.517 --> 00:50:11.367
"Acknowledging that my white skin may put me
746
00:50:11.367 --> 00:50:15.540
"in a place where there is less at stake in coming out
747
00:50:16.537 --> 00:50:21.537
"I now invite every lesbian, bisexual, and transwoman
748
00:50:22.257 --> 00:50:26.787
"who is willing and able to come forward
749
00:50:26.787 --> 00:50:31.787
"and join hands encircling this platform facing out."
750
00:50:34.980 --> 00:50:37.053
This is my memory of what happened.
751
00:50:39.700 --> 00:50:44.700
Remembering saying it, I wanna say again, very few people,
752
00:50:44.790 --> 00:50:47.040
it wasn't that people were prepared for this.
753
00:50:48.010 --> 00:50:50.910
Very few people in the room knew this was going to happen.
754
00:50:52.490 --> 00:50:55.420
But, as I looked out over them
755
00:50:57.180 --> 00:50:59.180
those 2200 people
756
00:51:01.700 --> 00:51:05.740
it seemed to me, and I think this is hyperbolic,
757
00:51:05.740 --> 00:51:08.590
that somebody from every table in that room
758
00:51:08.590 --> 00:51:13.450
stood up and people just started streaming
759
00:51:13.450 --> 00:51:17.493
towards the podium, the stage.
760
00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:24.400
And, I had invited people to come
761
00:51:24.540 --> 00:51:28.470
and circle the stage facing out,
762
00:51:28.470 --> 00:51:32.070
and I remember they were encircling the stage
763
00:51:33.050 --> 00:51:37.073
several rows deep and spilling up onto the stage.
764
00:51:38.945 --> 00:51:43.507
It so far surpassed our expectation of
765
00:51:43.507 --> 00:51:48.180
who might respond and I saw people that I knew
766
00:51:50.310 --> 00:51:54.840
who, until that moment, were not out publicly in front of
767
00:51:54.840 --> 00:51:56.610
their district superintendent who may have
768
00:51:56.610 --> 00:52:01.610
been sitting there, or their bishop,
769
00:52:01.834 --> 00:52:06.834
and who knew, I mean they were taking enormous risks.
770
00:52:07.100 --> 00:52:12.097
But, they women started, and my intention was then
771
00:52:15.550 --> 00:52:20.197
once the women had come and encircled the stage that
772
00:52:21.100 --> 00:52:25.910
my intention was to ask those who were willing
773
00:52:25.910 --> 00:52:29.660
and able to stand, those who wished to stand
774
00:52:29.660 --> 00:52:34.660
in solidarity with us and were able to do that
775
00:52:34.690 --> 00:52:39.690
to rise and we would sing together.
776
00:52:41.350 --> 00:52:43.960
We're gonna keep on moving forward, never turning back,
777
00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:45.710
never turning back.
778
00:52:45.710 --> 00:52:49.590
And gosh, I didn't even get to that because
779
00:52:49.590 --> 00:52:54.590
as the women started streaming forward from all parts
780
00:52:54.853 --> 00:52:57.963
of the room people were on their feet.
781
00:52:59.375 --> 00:53:02.950
And, in my memory, I wish I could describe it
782
00:53:02.950 --> 00:53:07.910
as the roof of the convention center disappeared,
783
00:53:07.910 --> 00:53:10.290
I mean it went off with the
784
00:53:12.620 --> 00:53:15.443
the word is pandemonium that broke out.
785
00:53:16.651 --> 00:53:20.240
I could see tears streaming down the faces
786
00:53:20.240 --> 00:53:22.080
of people coming forward but also those
787
00:53:22.080 --> 00:53:23.400
who were at their table.
788
00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:26.336
I could see people have have their arms in the air.
789
00:53:26.336 --> 00:53:31.336
They were cheering these women on.
790
00:53:32.770 --> 00:53:35.930
Now, there may have been some people who remained seated
791
00:53:37.477 --> 00:53:40.793
who not for disability reasons,
792
00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:42.963
but I didn't see them.
793
00:53:44.672 --> 00:53:47.617
As they were coming down I was just saying,
794
00:53:47.617 --> 00:53:51.290
"yes, yes, yes," into the microphone
795
00:53:51.290 --> 00:53:53.340
cause I listened later to this
796
00:53:53.340 --> 00:53:54.953
on the Re-Imagining tapes.
797
00:53:58.535 --> 00:54:01.560
The whole thing from the clapping was
798
00:54:01.560 --> 00:54:03.260
just went, it was like thunderous.
799
00:54:06.555 --> 00:54:07.680
And, then I invited us to sing and my memory,
800
00:54:10.142 --> 00:54:15.000
is again, overwhelmingly everyone joined in
801
00:54:16.090 --> 00:54:20.753
to sing we're gonna keep on moving forward,
802
00:54:21.750 --> 00:54:24.570
never turning back, never turning back.
803
00:54:24.570 --> 00:54:28.483
We're going to keep on loving boldly.
804
00:54:29.370 --> 00:54:32.430
We're gonna keep on speaking truthfully.
805
00:54:32.430 --> 00:54:37.430
We're gonna keep on loving women, never turning back.
806
00:54:37.561 --> 00:54:40.630
We're gonna work for change together.
807
00:54:40.630 --> 00:54:43.050
Never turning back, never turning back.
808
00:54:44.255 --> 00:54:47.373
And, when we finished that song, all of us together,
809
00:54:48.600 --> 00:54:53.110
again we just, I don't know whether
810
00:54:53.110 --> 00:54:56.440
those talking circles every happened because
811
00:54:57.770 --> 00:55:00.130
people were hugging one another.
812
00:55:00.130 --> 00:55:04.114
And, the people coming to the podium to hug the women
813
00:55:04.114 --> 00:55:06.463
who had dared to come forward.
814
00:55:08.490 --> 00:55:09.633
I just remember it went on and on.
815
00:55:09.633 --> 00:55:12.160
I mean, the cheering and the hugging
816
00:55:12.160 --> 00:55:14.810
and the tears and the laughter.
817
00:55:14.810 --> 00:55:19.810
And, it was absolutely
818
00:55:19.820 --> 00:55:22.483
a sacred time.
819
00:55:27.782 --> 00:55:30.770
How did it feel to be in the midst of all that, Melanie?
820
00:55:30.770 --> 00:55:34.480
Oh, my goodness, I mean I know that
821
00:55:39.044 --> 00:55:41.230
I just felt carried out of,
822
00:55:44.720 --> 00:55:48.443
I felt very embodied, but also carried out of,
823
00:55:50.860 --> 00:55:54.697
I felt we, this is a palpable--
824
00:55:54.697 --> 00:55:56.750
Can I stop one second, I apologize.
825
00:55:56.750 --> 00:55:58.710
I'm getting another phone call, which is unfortunate.
826
00:55:58.710 --> 00:55:59.730
I think it's stopped.
827
00:55:59.730 --> 00:56:02.650
Go ahead, keep talking Melanie, sorry.
828
00:56:02.650 --> 00:56:03.550
It was a palpable?
829
00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:08.477
I felt this was a palpable foreshadowing
830
00:56:11.710 --> 00:56:13.083
for all of us present.
831
00:56:15.426 --> 00:56:20.426
In the words of Doctor King, "The arc of the moral universe
832
00:56:20.907 --> 00:56:22.207
"bending towards justice."
833
00:56:23.250 --> 00:56:26.833
We were witnessing something of the kingdom
834
00:56:28.358 --> 00:56:31.500
here and now on Earth, as it is in Heaven.
835
00:56:31.500 --> 00:56:33.950
But, we were also witnessing a foreshadowing
836
00:56:33.950 --> 00:56:37.920
of what was going to happen in our denominations that
837
00:56:40.250 --> 00:56:44.033
this was too good, too right, too holy,
838
00:56:46.210 --> 00:56:47.960
not to be lived into.
839
00:56:47.960 --> 00:56:49.720
That was my feeling.
840
00:56:49.720 --> 00:56:54.233
I felt so full of hope, that moment,
841
00:56:55.220 --> 00:56:58.510
that people had expressed that kind of solidarity
842
00:56:58.510 --> 00:57:02.500
so visibly and audibly.
843
00:57:02.500 --> 00:57:04.077
And, I know that
844
00:57:07.810 --> 00:57:09.500
person after person came up to me
845
00:57:09.500 --> 00:57:10.870
but they were also coming up to
846
00:57:10.870 --> 00:57:13.800
all the women who had come onto the stage
847
00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:16.693
and offering, saying, "What can we do?
848
00:57:18.007 --> 00:57:20.797
"When the fallout comes, how can we be there?"
849
00:57:21.820 --> 00:57:26.820
So, it was, I remember that time
850
00:57:27.050 --> 00:57:30.113
when I grow discouraged I did for years afterwards,
851
00:57:32.440 --> 00:57:36.153
and in the aftermath I remember somebody,
852
00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:41.020
I was speaking somewhere and I must have been
853
00:57:41.020 --> 00:57:42.720
telling this story and
854
00:57:46.450 --> 00:57:50.733
I remember a man in the audience getting up and asking,
855
00:57:52.057 --> 00:57:55.597
"So Doctor Morrison," I wasn't a doctor yet,
856
00:57:55.597 --> 00:57:58.750
"Reverend Morrison," whatever I was called,
857
00:57:58.750 --> 00:58:03.750
"Reverend Morrison, looking back
858
00:58:03.827 --> 00:58:08.827
"and knowing now what you know now
859
00:58:09.407 --> 00:58:13.467
"of the furor and the controversy that erupted
860
00:58:13.467 --> 00:58:15.747
"because of what you did
861
00:58:15.747 --> 00:58:20.747
"do you regret doing that
862
00:58:20.957 --> 00:58:25.047
"because it caused such divisions within the church?"
863
00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:33.407
I remember saying to him, I asked him, "Were you present?
864
00:58:33.407 --> 00:58:35.760
"Were you present at Re-Imagining?"
865
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:37.973
And he said, "No, I wasn't I just heard about it."
866
00:58:37.973 --> 00:58:41.647
And, I said, "If you had been there chances are
867
00:58:41.647 --> 00:58:43.747
"you would not be asking me this question.
868
00:58:44.727 --> 00:58:49.727
"I don't know, you would have yourself
869
00:58:50.207 --> 00:58:55.137
"experienced something so right
870
00:58:55.137 --> 00:58:57.207
"and so good that you might not
871
00:58:57.207 --> 00:58:59.747
"be asking me the questions.
872
00:58:59.747 --> 00:59:04.747
"But, maybe more to the point sir, no I do not regret
873
00:59:05.207 --> 00:59:09.030
"issuing that invitation because
874
00:59:10.775 --> 00:59:15.437
"it was not the source of division within the church.
875
00:59:15.437 --> 00:59:20.437
"The division long pre-existed that invitation.
876
00:59:20.475 --> 00:59:25.475
"The division had been caused by centuries of sexism,
877
00:59:26.170 --> 00:59:28.167
"heterosexism, and other systems
878
00:59:28.167 --> 00:59:29.557
"of privilege and oppression.
879
00:59:29.557 --> 00:59:32.323
"So no, my answer is no, I do not regret.
880
00:59:37.887 --> 00:59:40.810
"I know that some people have suffered enormously
881
00:59:42.117 --> 00:59:44.647
"in ways that I have not," I said to him.
882
00:59:44.647 --> 00:59:47.287
"Some people have lost their jobs, some people have lost
883
00:59:47.287 --> 00:59:49.387
"the chance to be ordained.
884
00:59:49.387 --> 00:59:54.367
"They've been targeted with inquisitional
885
00:59:57.277 --> 01:00:00.297
"kinds of gatherings.
886
01:00:00.297 --> 01:00:03.487
"And as they come up for ordination,
887
01:00:03.487 --> 01:00:05.880
"were you at Re-Imagining and so forth."
888
01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:09.267
I said, "So, I have not suffered as some other
889
01:00:09.267 --> 01:00:11.867
"people have, but I also know it was not
890
01:00:11.867 --> 01:00:16.867
"this invitation anymore that it was Doctor Delores Williams
891
01:00:17.907 --> 01:00:21.357
"Re-Imagining of Atonement that was the problem,
892
01:00:21.357 --> 01:00:23.037
"or that cost people their jobs.
893
01:00:23.037 --> 01:00:28.037
"It was the entrenched, still entrenched sexism
894
01:00:28.437 --> 01:00:30.897
"and heterosexism within the church."
895
01:00:36.404 --> 01:00:38.440
Well, you have now, Melanie, brought us very nicely
896
01:00:38.440 --> 01:00:39.763
to the backlash.
897
01:00:40.600 --> 01:00:43.270
From what you said it sounded like there was already
898
01:00:43.270 --> 01:00:46.780
an awareness at Re-Imagining that there was going
899
01:00:46.780 --> 01:00:48.560
to be this kind of backlash.
900
01:00:48.560 --> 01:00:50.670
And that, you were already thinking about how
901
01:00:50.670 --> 01:00:52.843
to respond to it, is that correct?
902
01:00:54.720 --> 01:00:58.773
Well yes, certainly the conversations,
903
01:01:01.180 --> 01:01:06.180
well folks who were part of Clout, we called Clout
904
01:01:06.510 --> 01:01:10.850
into being because there were many lesbian women
905
01:01:10.850 --> 01:01:15.020
who could not be ordained, could not be safely out
906
01:01:15.020 --> 01:01:15.853
within the church.
907
01:01:15.853 --> 01:01:20.770
I mean, we knew the kind of possible backlash for people.
908
01:01:22.725 --> 01:01:26.950
And, the planning committee members, their hesitance
909
01:01:26.950 --> 01:01:29.070
about letting us be on the stage, letting me
910
01:01:29.070 --> 01:01:33.640
come to the stage was also signified their fear
911
01:01:33.640 --> 01:01:36.410
already of backlash.
912
01:01:36.410 --> 01:01:39.980
Now, this was but one piece
913
01:01:39.980 --> 01:01:43.023
of the backlash.
914
01:01:43.950 --> 01:01:46.520
My memory of
915
01:01:49.432 --> 01:01:52.143
the backlash or the furor that erupted
916
01:01:54.420 --> 01:01:58.550
within particularly like the United Methodist Church,
917
01:01:58.550 --> 01:02:01.820
The Presbyterian Churches USA
918
01:02:01.820 --> 01:02:06.573
was caused by people who were in attendance
919
01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:14.430
and, I guess were in attendance, and then
920
01:02:15.280 --> 01:02:19.190
quickly published their interpretation
921
01:02:19.190 --> 01:02:21.390
of what had happened at Re-Imagining.
922
01:02:21.390 --> 01:02:26.390
And so, there was a kind of inquisition spirit
923
01:02:27.259 --> 01:02:29.493
happening in different places.
924
01:02:30.778 --> 01:02:34.883
And, the focus of the furor was fourfold at least.
925
01:02:37.690 --> 01:02:41.660
As I kept seeing it articulated by those
926
01:02:41.660 --> 01:02:45.880
who were in distress, not by the planners,
927
01:02:45.880 --> 01:02:50.453
or most of us who were present there.
928
01:02:52.107 --> 01:02:55.770
And, that was around language for God, like Sophia,
929
01:02:55.770 --> 01:02:58.221
language, the ritual of milk and honey, even though
930
01:02:58.221 --> 01:03:03.221
that has profound ancient roots within both
931
01:03:03.350 --> 01:03:07.270
Judaism and Christianity, the critique of
932
01:03:07.270 --> 01:03:11.390
atonement theology, and then the
933
01:03:13.150 --> 01:03:16.550
what those folks called the celebration of
934
01:03:17.873 --> 01:03:21.710
the sinful homosexual lifestyle.
935
01:03:21.710 --> 01:03:26.583
And so, at times in those publications
936
01:03:28.520 --> 01:03:32.393
they quoted snippets from what I had said.
937
01:03:35.060 --> 01:03:40.060
And, I guess I don't know
938
01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:42.233
that I anticipated,
939
01:03:44.280 --> 01:03:46.190
I didn't have any way of knowing.
940
01:03:46.190 --> 01:03:48.590
I'm not sure anyone knew that
941
01:03:50.840 --> 01:03:53.247
the furor would be as fierce as it was.
942
01:03:55.410 --> 01:03:58.160
So, I remember, and I don't remember exactly when it was,
943
01:03:58.160 --> 01:04:02.300
but not long after Re-Imagining, I was sound asleep
944
01:04:02.300 --> 01:04:04.550
and my sister Stephanie called me from Cleveland
945
01:04:04.550 --> 01:04:08.287
and said, "Turn on Nightline, turn on Nightline.
946
01:04:10.327 --> 01:04:12.727
"They've got your voice on Nightline."
947
01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:17.440
And, I couldn't find where the TV was
948
01:04:18.924 --> 01:04:21.093
for long enough to see it.
949
01:04:22.790 --> 01:04:25.343
Ted Koppel was talking about Re-Imagining.
950
01:04:26.330 --> 01:04:30.690
And then, the 700 Club played a clip of what I said
951
01:04:30.690 --> 01:04:34.263
and other things from Delores Williams.
952
01:04:37.660 --> 01:04:39.410
And then, there were all these publications
953
01:04:39.410 --> 01:04:40.943
that started coming out.
954
01:04:43.958 --> 01:04:47.940
Stuff like the Presbyterian Layman, The Good News,
955
01:04:47.940 --> 01:04:50.230
Hopes Within United Methodist Church
956
01:04:50.230 --> 01:04:53.270
which were publicizing what had happens,
957
01:04:53.270 --> 01:04:55.667
publishing their interpretation and what had happened.
958
01:04:55.667 --> 01:04:59.300
I don't think that
959
01:05:00.720 --> 01:05:05.720
even though I found it profoundly important
960
01:05:06.030 --> 01:05:08.430
that people were singing and the workshops
961
01:05:08.430 --> 01:05:10.090
and the plenary sessions.
962
01:05:10.090 --> 01:05:13.240
And, yeah I was ecstatic about what I was hearing.
963
01:05:13.240 --> 01:05:17.930
I didn't necessarily think it would create
964
01:05:17.930 --> 01:05:19.140
the kind of backlash it did.
965
01:05:19.140 --> 01:05:23.260
Now, it didn't, as much in my own denomination,
966
01:05:23.260 --> 01:05:24.817
the United Church of Christ.
967
01:05:26.320 --> 01:05:31.320
So, I have a bit more sheltered life there
968
01:05:31.590 --> 01:05:34.082
in the United Church of Christ, but also,
969
01:05:34.082 --> 01:05:36.880
it had to be said that partly why that backlash
970
01:05:36.880 --> 01:05:38.920
happened within the United Methodist and the Presbyterians
971
01:05:38.920 --> 01:05:41.460
is because they were also contributors,
972
01:05:41.460 --> 01:05:43.483
the Presbyterian Church, for example.
973
01:05:44.600 --> 01:05:48.880
Like Marianne Lundy served on the planning committee
974
01:05:48.880 --> 01:05:52.430
and was able, I think, if I'm not mistaken, to get funds
975
01:05:52.430 --> 01:05:56.063
of support through the Presbyterian Women and so forth.
976
01:05:58.913 --> 01:06:00.370
I don't think the United Church of Christ
977
01:06:00.370 --> 01:06:02.116
had a central role in planning it, but I didn't know
978
01:06:02.116 --> 01:06:03.540
the answer to that.
979
01:06:03.540 --> 01:06:06.590
So, I do remember writing something
980
01:06:06.590 --> 01:06:11.507
for Faith Johnson who had been working with us on the board,
981
01:06:12.410 --> 01:06:14.540
what was then the board for homeland ministries,
982
01:06:14.540 --> 01:06:17.800
in the United Church for Christ writing a document for her
983
01:06:17.800 --> 01:06:22.690
about my experience at Re-Imagining that might be used
984
01:06:22.690 --> 01:06:24.750
in case there was backlash within
985
01:06:24.750 --> 01:06:26.203
the United Church of Christ.
986
01:06:32.320 --> 01:06:35.280
On the sort of flip side of all of that
987
01:06:37.670 --> 01:06:41.220
and not to minimize what people suffered, because I don't
988
01:06:41.220 --> 01:06:45.233
in any way minimize the cost,
989
01:06:46.080 --> 01:06:50.090
what was at stake for some people, the cost for them
990
01:06:50.090 --> 01:06:54.153
in terms of employment, another thing that I did not suffer.
991
01:06:55.400 --> 01:06:57.130
So, I don't minimize that.
992
01:06:57.130 --> 01:07:02.120
And yet also, I remember feeling like
993
01:07:03.440 --> 01:07:08.440
wow, this is an incredible testimony
994
01:07:08.820 --> 01:07:13.183
to how powerful theological work can be in the world.
995
01:07:16.930 --> 01:07:20.670
It's like the Gospels are just like women speaking
996
01:07:20.670 --> 01:07:22.410
in the early church.
997
01:07:22.410 --> 01:07:26.490
And then, texts maybe attributed to Paul or others
998
01:07:26.490 --> 01:07:29.530
saying, "Women should be silent in the church,"
999
01:07:29.530 --> 01:07:31.960
Elizabeth Schusler for your own said it's written about
1000
01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:35.120
all those texts that got into the new testament
1001
01:07:35.120 --> 01:07:38.290
of the Christian Scriptures about women not speaking
1002
01:07:38.290 --> 01:07:39.920
and not having authority over men.
1003
01:07:39.920 --> 01:07:43.140
But, those were all a reaction to women speaking
1004
01:07:43.140 --> 01:07:44.240
and claiming authority
1005
01:07:46.370 --> 01:07:50.080
and the power of that.
1006
01:07:50.080 --> 01:07:53.950
So, the backlash, the backlash comes
1007
01:07:55.840 --> 01:07:59.687
as it has happened now in terms of white supremacy,
1008
01:07:59.687 --> 01:08:03.780
and recent elections and what were seeing backlash
1009
01:08:05.260 --> 01:08:08.870
to the meaning of the first black president and stuff.
1010
01:08:08.870 --> 01:08:12.750
It's also a testimony to the power of change
1011
01:08:12.750 --> 01:08:14.083
that has been wrought.
1012
01:08:16.060 --> 01:08:21.060
And so, I felt not to minimize the suffering
1013
01:08:21.410 --> 01:08:23.830
I also thought this is an incredible testament,
1014
01:08:23.830 --> 01:08:27.150
if those of us who sometimes feel ourselves
1015
01:08:27.150 --> 01:08:31.237
on the margins of the church think that
1016
01:08:32.230 --> 01:08:37.080
the church has no more work in the world as a change agent
1017
01:08:37.970 --> 01:08:42.130
Re-Imagining is a testimony to something
1018
01:08:42.130 --> 01:08:44.140
very different than that.
1019
01:08:44.140 --> 01:08:47.370
Re-Imagining is really a testimony to the power,
1020
01:08:47.370 --> 01:08:52.370
the Earth shaking power of women Re-Imagining
1021
01:08:54.310 --> 01:08:57.793
and theology and spirituality.
1022
01:08:59.890 --> 01:09:01.420
I didn't think it was only bad news,
1023
01:09:01.420 --> 01:09:04.110
I mean that there was a lot of good news
1024
01:09:04.110 --> 01:09:07.493
sort of at the heart of the backlash.
1025
01:09:13.400 --> 01:09:17.480
There was one thing that happened, I feel it's insignificant
1026
01:09:19.610 --> 01:09:23.980
in contrast to what to some people experienced by way
1027
01:09:23.980 --> 01:09:26.627
of loss of jobs and so forth after Re-Imagining,
1028
01:09:26.627 --> 01:09:30.080
but I will say I just wanna tell this one story
1029
01:09:30.080 --> 01:09:34.640
of something at Leaven,
1030
01:09:34.640 --> 01:09:38.460
that my mother and I experienced as backlash,
1031
01:09:38.460 --> 01:09:40.913
tangible backlash from Re-Imagining.
1032
01:09:42.540 --> 01:09:47.540
We, in our work with Leaven, the non-profit that we
1033
01:09:48.230 --> 01:09:53.230
were directors of, we were invited to lead retreats
1034
01:09:53.660 --> 01:09:58.430
for clergy women in different parts of the country
1035
01:09:58.430 --> 01:10:00.133
and in different denominations.
1036
01:10:01.530 --> 01:10:06.530
And, a few months before Re-Imagining we got
1037
01:10:06.610 --> 01:10:10.397
an invitation from some RCA clergywomen,
1038
01:10:12.053 --> 01:10:15.330
Reform Church of America clergywomen.
1039
01:10:15.330 --> 01:10:18.210
And, I don't know if this is accurate, my memory is
1040
01:10:18.210 --> 01:10:23.210
that they were asking us to lead the first ever retreat
1041
01:10:23.482 --> 01:10:26.240
for RCA clergywomen.
1042
01:10:26.240 --> 01:10:28.960
That may not be true, they may have had prior ones,
1043
01:10:28.960 --> 01:10:32.660
but it was going to be a significant event for bringing,
1044
01:10:32.660 --> 01:10:36.660
because it was still in 1993, I don't know what
1045
01:10:36.660 --> 01:10:40.430
the percentage was, but it was a small percent
1046
01:10:40.430 --> 01:10:44.350
of all the clergy in the RCA were women.
1047
01:10:44.350 --> 01:10:48.530
And, they felt, many of them felt very isolated
1048
01:10:48.530 --> 01:10:51.300
in their churches in different parts of the country
1049
01:10:51.300 --> 01:10:53.380
and they were longing to come together.
1050
01:10:53.380 --> 01:10:55.610
We felt deeply honored.
1051
01:10:55.610 --> 01:10:57.620
That is not our denomination.
1052
01:10:57.620 --> 01:11:01.870
They had heard from other clergywomen about
1053
01:11:01.870 --> 01:11:04.980
the retreats that we lead and so they asked us to come.
1054
01:11:04.980 --> 01:11:09.210
They wanted us to provide leadership for
1055
01:11:09.210 --> 01:11:10.950
a two or three day retreat.
1056
01:11:10.950 --> 01:11:14.700
And, it was going to be I think it was at
1057
01:11:14.700 --> 01:11:17.030
Western Seminary in Holland, Michigan
1058
01:11:17.030 --> 01:11:18.643
which is an RCA seminary.
1059
01:11:21.320 --> 01:11:23.960
They were very excited about, they were calling it
1060
01:11:23.960 --> 01:11:25.080
Sisters in a Strange Land.
1061
01:11:25.080 --> 01:11:28.200
And, I kind of wondered about using that title because
1062
01:11:28.200 --> 01:11:30.970
that was the title we used for an event,
1063
01:11:30.970 --> 01:11:32.530
a retreat for Christian lesbians
1064
01:11:32.530 --> 01:11:34.241
we were holding annually.
1065
01:11:34.241 --> 01:11:36.723
So, I said, "now be careful, 'cause that's a,"
1066
01:11:36.723 --> 01:11:38.907
They said, "Oh no, we just loved that
1067
01:11:38.907 --> 01:11:41.141
"Sisters in a Strange Land, that's how we feel
1068
01:11:41.141 --> 01:11:43.363
"within the RCA."
1069
01:11:43.363 --> 01:11:46.900
So it was, Sisters in a Strange Land, a retreat for
1070
01:11:46.900 --> 01:11:49.350
RCA clergywomen something like that.
1071
01:11:49.350 --> 01:11:52.093
Okay, fine, feel free to use the title.
1072
01:11:56.100 --> 01:11:58.730
It was gonna, I don't remember exactly when it was
1073
01:11:58.730 --> 01:12:01.963
gonna but several months, a few months after Re-Imagining.
1074
01:12:03.170 --> 01:12:06.100
Several weeks after Re-Imagining I get a phone call
1075
01:12:07.920 --> 01:12:12.920
from a representative from the commission for women
1076
01:12:13.460 --> 01:12:16.530
of the RCA, the Reform Church of America.
1077
01:12:16.530 --> 01:12:18.630
And she was, I think, located in New York.
1078
01:12:19.716 --> 01:12:23.827
And she said, "Hello Melanie, thank you for all
1079
01:12:23.827 --> 01:12:25.387
"the work you've done.
1080
01:12:25.387 --> 01:12:28.455
"We're providing financial support for Sisters
1081
01:12:28.455 --> 01:12:31.967
"in a Strange Land, that retreat that's going to happen.
1082
01:12:31.967 --> 01:12:34.637
"And, we thank you and your mother so much
1083
01:12:34.637 --> 01:12:36.750
"for all the work you've done
1084
01:12:38.498 --> 01:12:43.397
"in helping to design this but we have decided
1085
01:12:43.397 --> 01:12:48.397
"that we, on site, we're going to use other facilitators."
1086
01:12:50.210 --> 01:12:52.823
And so, I said, "Excuse me,
1087
01:12:56.611 --> 01:12:58.647
"are you calling me right now to say that
1088
01:12:58.647 --> 01:13:01.682
"we're being dismissed, fired?
1089
01:13:01.682 --> 01:13:05.033
"You're terminating a contract we have?"
1090
01:13:07.307 --> 01:13:08.140
She said, "yeah."
1091
01:13:08.140 --> 01:13:11.397
I said "Well, do the clergywomen who've been planning
1092
01:13:11.397 --> 01:13:12.637
"with us know about this?"
1093
01:13:12.637 --> 01:13:15.208
"Well, they will shortly."
1094
01:13:15.208 --> 01:13:17.980
Oh my goodness.
Uh-huh.
1095
01:13:17.980 --> 01:13:22.027
And I said, "Could I ask you please what this is about?"
1096
01:13:23.810 --> 01:13:27.030
Now Sherry, I had a hunch but I wasn't going to
1097
01:13:27.030 --> 01:13:28.360
do her work for her.
1098
01:13:28.360 --> 01:13:30.677
I said, (laughs)
1099
01:13:30.677 --> 01:13:34.177
"Can I ask what is this abrupt announcement?
1100
01:13:34.177 --> 01:13:37.177
"We're very surprised, we're very excited to them.
1101
01:13:37.177 --> 01:13:39.427
"We're honored to have been asked.
1102
01:13:39.427 --> 01:13:42.967
"We've done some great, laid some great groundwork,
1103
01:13:42.967 --> 01:13:46.168
"got this thing designed with these clergywomen
1104
01:13:46.168 --> 01:13:50.537
"and why are you calling with this news?"
1105
01:13:50.537 --> 01:13:52.647
"Well, we just,"
1106
01:13:55.990 --> 01:13:57.800
I don't know, she kind of tried
1107
01:13:57.800 --> 01:13:59.510
to walk around the edges and not name it.
1108
01:13:59.510 --> 01:14:04.510
I said, "I would like you to be, please, direct with me now.
1109
01:14:04.717 --> 01:14:06.190
"What's going on?"
1110
01:14:06.190 --> 01:14:10.827
And, she said, "Well, we are aware
1111
01:14:10.827 --> 01:14:12.857
"that you work with Clout."
1112
01:14:14.290 --> 01:14:16.540
I thought, "How in the world did she know this?"
1113
01:14:16.540 --> 01:14:19.604
And then, I was like, oh my goodness.
1114
01:14:19.604 --> 01:14:24.604
I'll bet there's some women from the Commission for Women
1115
01:14:24.830 --> 01:14:29.830
sitting at Re-Imagining when I began speaking.
1116
01:14:30.002 --> 01:14:31.270
This is my imagination, she didn't say all that.
1117
01:14:31.270 --> 01:14:34.400
This is my imagination that they thought to themselves
1118
01:14:34.400 --> 01:14:36.877
and sitting there, "We know that name Melanie Morrison,
1119
01:14:36.877 --> 01:14:37.710
"Oh we know that name, how do we know?
1120
01:14:38.962 --> 01:14:40.640
"Oh, my goodness
1121
01:14:44.167 --> 01:14:46.637
"she's one of the leaders of this retreat."
1122
01:14:49.720 --> 01:14:52.670
She finally said, I asked her, "Well, how do you
1123
01:14:52.670 --> 01:14:54.027
"know about Clout?"
1124
01:14:54.870 --> 01:14:57.137
And she goes, "Well, we know that you spoke
1125
01:14:57.137 --> 01:14:58.870
"at Re-Imagining and we know,"
1126
01:14:58.870 --> 01:15:00.453
and then she said things like,
1127
01:15:05.070 --> 01:15:05.903
I have to be a little careful here.
1128
01:15:05.903 --> 01:15:08.390
But, this was 25 years ago.
1129
01:15:08.390 --> 01:15:11.677
She had actually, she said,
1130
01:15:11.677 --> 01:15:14.090
"We have to be really careful about
1131
01:15:15.277 --> 01:15:18.187
"we're going to have seminarians there.
1132
01:15:18.187 --> 01:15:21.680
"We need to protect our seminarians and so forth."
1133
01:15:21.680 --> 01:15:25.007
I said, "you don't even know what we're going to be
1134
01:15:25.007 --> 01:15:27.073
"presenting at this."
1135
01:15:27.073 --> 01:15:31.280
Anyway, so as soon as I got off the phone with her
1136
01:15:32.170 --> 01:15:35.600
I called the clergywoman who had been working
1137
01:15:35.600 --> 01:15:38.862
most closely with us, who had initially contacted us.
1138
01:15:38.862 --> 01:15:43.400
Then, she was enraged to hear, from me,
1139
01:15:43.400 --> 01:15:44.700
that wasn't the commission
1140
01:15:45.800 --> 01:15:50.750
and lodged a protest and took, I don't know
1141
01:15:50.750 --> 01:15:52.430
whether that retreat ever took place.
1142
01:15:52.430 --> 01:15:56.660
There was talk for a while among the clergywomen
1143
01:15:56.660 --> 01:15:59.890
about they had asked us, "Would you consider
1144
01:16:00.997 --> 01:16:05.517
"leading a retreat in exile in the same town
1145
01:16:05.517 --> 01:16:07.317
"that we'll just leave the commission there
1146
01:16:07.317 --> 01:16:11.857
"at the Seminary, we'll find a little location.
1147
01:16:11.857 --> 01:16:15.607
"And, we will exit that and leave them holding
1148
01:16:15.607 --> 01:16:17.038
"the bag financially.
1149
01:16:17.038 --> 01:16:19.490
"Would you lead a retreat?"
1150
01:16:19.490 --> 01:16:20.923
We said, "Sure, we'd do that with you."
1151
01:16:20.923 --> 01:16:22.373
And, that never came to pass.
1152
01:16:23.820 --> 01:16:26.983
And, I don't know what finally happened with that retreat.
1153
01:16:28.230 --> 01:16:31.343
That was one small piece of fall out.
1154
01:16:33.690 --> 01:16:36.460
But, I certainly
1155
01:16:38.150 --> 01:16:42.740
heard from all kinds of people throughout the country
1156
01:16:42.740 --> 01:16:44.340
in different denominations
1157
01:16:46.388 --> 01:16:48.570
about the backlash that was going on
1158
01:16:48.570 --> 01:16:51.150
and how my name was being invoked or Clout's was
1159
01:16:51.150 --> 01:16:52.030
and so forth.
1160
01:16:52.030 --> 01:16:54.430
And I'll just say it's kind of insignificant but
1161
01:16:56.170 --> 01:17:01.170
strange that what got attributed to me
1162
01:17:01.370 --> 01:17:05.658
in different places was actually sometimes
1163
01:17:05.658 --> 01:17:10.060
what I really said there fell out of
1164
01:17:10.960 --> 01:17:13.080
like what was said in the Christian Sentry
1165
01:17:13.918 --> 01:17:16.363
about what took place and the protests that
1166
01:17:16.363 --> 01:17:19.040
were being lodged add it that Melanie Morrison
1167
01:17:19.040 --> 01:17:21.100
prayed to Mauna,
1168
01:17:21.100 --> 01:17:24.310
M-a-u-n-a, our creator.
1169
01:17:24.310 --> 01:17:26.290
Now, I think that that was indeed a prayer
1170
01:17:26.290 --> 01:17:28.233
that was issued, but was not by me.
1171
01:17:29.810 --> 01:17:32.180
But, that kind of got attached to me and showed up
1172
01:17:32.180 --> 01:17:34.780
in lots of different publications
1173
01:17:34.780 --> 01:17:36.520
that I had said that prayer.
1174
01:17:36.520 --> 01:17:40.300
I in no way wanted to be dismissive of that
1175
01:17:40.300 --> 01:17:45.300
Earth centered prayer, as I remember it.
1176
01:17:45.340 --> 01:17:48.710
But, I did let it be known some places that
1177
01:17:48.710 --> 01:17:51.820
no that's not what I did, but here's the speech
1178
01:17:51.820 --> 01:17:52.653
I did give.
1179
01:17:52.653 --> 01:17:54.623
(laughs)
1180
01:17:54.623 --> 01:17:58.910
In the full text of wanting to carry our witness forth.
1181
01:18:00.550 --> 01:18:03.013
Wonderful, oh Melanie this is great.
1182
01:18:04.450 --> 01:18:06.670
I was wondering, what do you think, I know it's
1183
01:18:06.670 --> 01:18:08.910
25 years later, almost, what do you think
1184
01:18:08.910 --> 01:18:11.250
is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining
1185
01:18:11.250 --> 01:18:12.583
as we look back on it?
1186
01:18:21.550 --> 01:18:23.010
Well, I think that
1187
01:18:28.720 --> 01:18:33.720
I know that I was so thrilled at the time
1188
01:18:34.280 --> 01:18:39.280
that different communities that were doing important
1189
01:18:41.850 --> 01:18:46.030
Re-Imagining work were brought together
1190
01:18:46.030 --> 01:18:47.533
in that one place.
1191
01:18:51.660 --> 01:18:56.660
So, women from the Philippians and from the continent
1192
01:18:56.730 --> 01:19:01.270
of Africa and from different geographical locations
1193
01:19:01.270 --> 01:19:05.430
also women of color, different communities of color
1194
01:19:05.430 --> 01:19:09.583
and white women doing feminist theology and such,
1195
01:19:09.583 --> 01:19:13.530
that we were in the same place sharing
1196
01:19:14.470 --> 01:19:17.530
more deeply, in some cases from each other
1197
01:19:17.530 --> 01:19:22.530
and the challenges that were being posed to each other.
1198
01:19:23.420 --> 01:19:28.113
I mean, that was a wonderful gift of Re-Imagining.
1199
01:19:31.200 --> 01:19:32.610
And, I think that
1200
01:19:36.330 --> 01:19:41.330
I know that I would hear in years afterwards
1201
01:19:43.240 --> 01:19:45.310
that the movement was continuing
1202
01:19:45.310 --> 01:19:48.290
because people, such as yourself, who would,
1203
01:19:48.290 --> 01:19:51.440
you were carrying on these Re-Imagining communities
1204
01:19:54.030 --> 01:19:59.023
so that new generations of women who were hungry
1205
01:20:00.610 --> 01:20:03.600
for Re-Imagining church
1206
01:20:05.610 --> 01:20:07.860
and Re-Imagining God,
1207
01:20:07.860 --> 01:20:10.190
Re-Imagining Jesus, Re-Imagining spirit
1208
01:20:10.190 --> 01:20:13.310
and so on and so forth, that there was a place
1209
01:20:13.310 --> 01:20:14.870
and a memory of a place
1210
01:20:17.690 --> 01:20:20.820
that they could feel some anchoring in.
1211
01:20:20.820 --> 01:20:24.083
So, I think that's been a tremendous contribution.
1212
01:20:26.190 --> 01:20:30.500
Thank you, a couple of final questions here.
1213
01:20:30.500 --> 01:20:32.970
What do you think Re-Imagining means today?
1214
01:20:32.970 --> 01:20:35.480
And, I don't mean specifically the Re-Imagining community,
1215
01:20:35.480 --> 01:20:38.783
but what needs to be re-imagined today?
1216
01:20:46.160 --> 01:20:47.833
Oh my.
(laughs)
1217
01:20:47.833 --> 01:20:49.693
It's a tough question, I know.
1218
01:20:50.694 --> 01:20:51.810
Yeah.
Well, you're doing
1219
01:20:51.810 --> 01:20:54.660
in your Allies for Change it seems like you're working
1220
01:20:54.660 --> 01:20:56.533
to do those kind of changes.
1221
01:21:05.540 --> 01:21:08.430
Some of the work, I mean most of the work
1222
01:21:08.430 --> 01:21:12.340
that I do with Allies for Change that is work
1223
01:21:13.190 --> 01:21:18.190
it's anti-racism education and consulting and so forth.
1224
01:21:18.450 --> 01:21:21.210
Most of it is done with colleagues of color
1225
01:21:22.600 --> 01:21:24.163
in multi-racial spaces.
1226
01:21:25.570 --> 01:21:30.570
I have also, for 23 years, been co-facilitating
1227
01:21:32.730 --> 01:21:35.283
something called Doing Our Own Work.
1228
01:21:36.810 --> 01:21:41.810
Fixed day, intensive, anti-racism seminar
1229
01:21:42.110 --> 01:21:43.603
for white people.
1230
01:21:46.210 --> 01:21:49.533
Because, it was our experience actually,
1231
01:21:53.030 --> 01:21:56.690
actually in 1994 we launched Doing Our Own Work.
1232
01:21:56.690 --> 01:21:59.480
So, about the same historical epoch,
1233
01:21:59.480 --> 01:22:01.673
and era as Re-Imagining.
1234
01:22:02.580 --> 01:22:05.790
We launched Doing Our Own Work at the encouragement
1235
01:22:06.940 --> 01:22:10.157
of colleagues and friends of color who said,
1236
01:22:10.157 --> 01:22:14.647
"I am just weary of educating white people.
1237
01:22:14.647 --> 01:22:18.837
"It's really time for you all to do your own work.
1238
01:22:18.837 --> 01:22:22.017
"But, also do your own work in helping each other
1239
01:22:22.017 --> 01:22:24.407
"move through the places where you so frequently
1240
01:22:24.407 --> 01:22:28.397
"get stuck, in places of denial, fear,
1241
01:22:28.397 --> 01:22:31.033
"greed, guilt, shame.
1242
01:22:32.447 --> 01:22:35.173
"That work is yours not ours.
1243
01:22:36.907 --> 01:22:40.487
"And yes, it's really important that you show up
1244
01:22:40.487 --> 01:22:44.447
"along side us, in solidarity with us, but how you
1245
01:22:44.447 --> 01:22:48.847
"show up is also very important.
1246
01:22:48.847 --> 01:22:51.637
"So, you all need to do some of that work
1247
01:22:51.637 --> 01:22:54.067
"to come up to speed, to dive deep.
1248
01:22:54.067 --> 01:22:58.127
"Ask, how do you feel about being white.
1249
01:22:58.127 --> 01:23:00.230
"What does it mean to be white?"
1250
01:23:00.230 --> 01:23:04.370
So, I feel like some of that
1251
01:23:05.910 --> 01:23:10.910
re-imagining, re-inventing what it means to be anti-racist,
1252
01:23:11.940 --> 01:23:16.740
white people to understand that racism is our history,
1253
01:23:16.740 --> 01:23:19.780
the history that our ancestors gave to birth
1254
01:23:19.780 --> 01:23:21.270
to white supremacy.
1255
01:23:21.270 --> 01:23:25.840
And that we do some really deep work
1256
01:23:25.840 --> 01:23:30.350
around re-imagining and this is
1257
01:23:36.840 --> 01:23:40.420
I am embodied and here I have many identities
1258
01:23:40.420 --> 01:23:44.763
in this body and one of them is that I am a white woman.
1259
01:23:48.208 --> 01:23:50.253
So, I re-present that
1260
01:23:52.720 --> 01:23:55.820
in every space I move into, and how I
1261
01:23:55.820 --> 01:24:00.820
re-present that matters profoundly.
1262
01:24:01.300 --> 01:24:04.110
So that's, I don't know if I have said it in the way
1263
01:24:05.360 --> 01:24:08.420
adequately, but that's some of the work
1264
01:24:08.420 --> 01:24:12.260
that's most important to me right now is to
1265
01:24:15.690 --> 01:24:20.690
first and foremost to dismantle structural racism
1266
01:24:22.290 --> 01:24:26.060
and the devastating toll it still has on communities
1267
01:24:26.060 --> 01:24:27.663
of color and people of color.
1268
01:24:28.940 --> 01:24:30.400
That's the most important work.
1269
01:24:30.400 --> 01:24:35.090
But also then, to be asking
1270
01:24:35.940 --> 01:24:40.590
how can we as white people show up in this struggle
1271
01:24:41.860 --> 01:24:43.010
in better ways
1272
01:24:46.120 --> 01:24:48.380
so that we might really be
1273
01:24:52.260 --> 01:24:57.110
co-conspirators and accomplices in this
1274
01:24:58.080 --> 01:25:03.080
work that is unfortunately, it is a lot,
1275
01:25:04.105 --> 01:25:06.773
it's so, so, so much work yet to be done.
1276
01:25:09.240 --> 01:25:10.943
Thank you, thank you.
1277
01:25:11.967 --> 01:25:15.500
One last question, we have a Re-Imagining website
1278
01:25:15.500 --> 01:25:18.710
that is set up and it includes, you mentioned
1279
01:25:18.710 --> 01:25:20.370
listening to the cassettes.
1280
01:25:20.370 --> 01:25:24.130
We are in the process of digitizing all the conferences,
1281
01:25:24.130 --> 01:25:27.650
the first few are on there including 1993.
1282
01:25:27.650 --> 01:25:30.800
And, it includes the presenters and the rituals
1283
01:25:30.800 --> 01:25:33.260
so people can now listen to them.
1284
01:25:33.260 --> 01:25:35.300
We also have resources on there.
1285
01:25:35.300 --> 01:25:39.000
We have events, we're planning several celebrations
1286
01:25:39.000 --> 01:25:42.140
for 2018, which is the 25th anniversary.
1287
01:25:42.140 --> 01:25:45.480
And, I'm just wondering if you have thoughts about
1288
01:25:45.480 --> 01:25:49.540
what would be helpful to include in a website like this
1289
01:25:49.540 --> 01:25:53.353
resources or other things that might be useful to people?
1290
01:25:56.330 --> 01:25:58.160
Is this something I can get back to you?
1291
01:25:58.160 --> 01:26:01.570
You sure can, yes, I kind of sprang that, absolutely yes.
1292
01:26:01.570 --> 01:26:02.930
You don't need to answer right now.
1293
01:26:02.930 --> 01:26:04.580
I'd like to ponder that question.
1294
01:26:04.580 --> 01:26:05.790
Sure, of course.
1295
01:26:05.790 --> 01:26:08.309
And, I'd like to see what is there now and what
1296
01:26:08.309 --> 01:26:12.740
you're fashioning and then maybe make suggestions, yes.
1297
01:26:12.740 --> 01:26:16.060
That would be wonderful I will email you the URL
1298
01:26:16.060 --> 01:26:18.950
so you can kind of look at it and let me know
1299
01:26:18.950 --> 01:26:21.080
what you would suggest to include.
1300
01:26:21.080 --> 01:26:22.770
That would be wonderful.
1301
01:26:22.770 --> 01:26:26.140
And finally Melanie, is there anything we haven't discussed
1302
01:26:26.140 --> 01:26:27.490
that you would like to add?
1303
01:26:33.950 --> 01:26:37.620
I don't know of anything, no, I really have
1304
01:26:37.620 --> 01:26:39.420
deeply appreciated this conversation
1305
01:26:40.620 --> 01:26:45.620
and the opportunity to search
1306
01:26:46.250 --> 01:26:49.780
for some of my files and to go into
1307
01:26:49.780 --> 01:26:54.780
the remembering the experience of being there.
1308
01:26:54.960 --> 01:26:59.960
So, it' been really good to remember what it meant
1309
01:27:00.160 --> 01:27:02.240
to me then and what it continues to mean.
1310
01:27:02.240 --> 01:27:06.175
So thank you, thanks for this invitation, Sherry.
1311
01:27:06.175 --> 01:27:07.515
Thank you, Melanie.
1312
01:27:07.515 --> 01:27:09.210
Thank you for the work you're doing.
1313
01:27:09.210 --> 01:27:10.330
I have just
1314
01:27:13.260 --> 01:27:15.807
completed a book that I spent
1315
01:27:19.460 --> 01:27:23.340
nearly 10 years writing, researching and writing.
1316
01:27:23.340 --> 01:27:24.880
It's going to be published by Duke University
1317
01:27:24.880 --> 01:27:25.943
Press next year.
1318
01:27:28.170 --> 01:27:32.100
It's historical narrative mostly, so I have spent
1319
01:27:32.100 --> 01:27:36.400
a lot of time in archives and my appreciation
1320
01:27:37.580 --> 01:27:41.110
for the people who archive materials
1321
01:27:41.110 --> 01:27:43.030
and for the fact that archives exist
1322
01:27:43.030 --> 01:27:47.403
and for archivists is enormous, and for historians.
1323
01:27:49.093 --> 01:27:52.720
In doing that work I'm just so grateful
1324
01:27:52.720 --> 01:27:55.710
and so I'm very grateful to you and others
1325
01:27:55.710 --> 01:27:59.963
for putting this together for our collective remembrance.
1326
01:28:00.840 --> 01:28:03.220
Yes thank you, and I have come to appreciate
1327
01:28:03.220 --> 01:28:04.980
archivists and archivists as well.
1328
01:28:04.980 --> 01:28:06.980
What is the title of your book?
1329
01:28:06.980 --> 01:28:08.680
Does it have a title yet, Melanie?
1330
01:28:10.150 --> 01:28:15.150
Yes, it's called Murder on Shades Mountain:
1331
01:28:18.010 --> 01:28:20.870
the Legal Lynching of Willie Peterson
1332
01:28:22.890 --> 01:28:26.832
and the Struggle for Justice in Jim Crow Birmingham.
1333
01:28:26.832 --> 01:28:28.830
Oh, I did see that on the website.
1334
01:28:28.830 --> 01:28:30.900
That sounds fascinating, Melanie,
1335
01:28:30.900 --> 01:28:32.851
I'll have to look for that.
1336
01:28:32.851 --> 01:28:34.680
Okay.
Great.
1337
01:28:34.680 --> 01:28:37.810
I'm gonna turn off the recording now and so
1338
01:28:37.810 --> 01:28:38.953
just give me a second.