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<v ->The lack of results, especially,</v>

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like I said, on, you know, the more difficult teams

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like Saudi and Yemeni teams, or the,

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the Gulf Arab state teams,

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the results as far as on the reporting side

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were minuscule compared to what, you know,

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people who were working the Pakistani and Afghan prisoners.

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Those were much more cooperative,

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at least as far as being able

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to give some basic information.

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So the frustration was more evident, that I saw.

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And when people were frustrated instead of looking inwardly

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and saying, well what can I do

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to become a better interrogator?

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It was mostly, well, what can we do

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to the detainees to get them to talk?

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And this is where you start getting leadership

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who, because of their ignorance and their arrogance,

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this deadly combination that I've spoken about before,

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where they don't know what to do,

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but they're in a position of authority,

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so they're too arrogant to listen

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to other people who maybe do know what to do.

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They start making the calls and the judgment calls

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on, well, instead of focusing on

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making better interrogators or providing

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the interrogators with the adequate supplies and tools,

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knowledge requirements that they need,

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we're going to focus on how far can we push

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the limit on the detainees?

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How far can we push them, as far as coercion,

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as far as mental or physical coercion.

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And this is where you start getting people talking

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about the gray area, which really never should

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have been spoken about because a good interrogator

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never needs to go into what we call the gray area.