Woman: Okay, we're rolling. Man: Okay, good. Okay, good afternoon. We are very grateful to you for participating in the "Witness To Guantanamo" project. We invite you to speak of your experiences at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. We're hoping to collect your story and the stories of other men who have been to brought to Guantanamo. We are creating an archive of the stories so that people in America and in the world, will have a better understanding of what you and others have endured. Future generations must know what happened. And by telling your story, you are contributing to history. We appreciate your courage and willingness to speak to us. If at any time you wanna take a break, please let us know and we'll take the break. And if at any point you say something that you'd like to remove, just please let us know and we'll remove it from the text. So any time, just let us know. - Okay. Man: Okay and I'd like to begin with some basic information as to who you are and so, if you wouldn't mind, just beginning by telling me your name and I'll have a few other basic questions about yourself. - Okay. Man: So your name? - My name is Tarek Dergoul. Man: And your country of origin? - My parents are from Morocco. Emma: (mumbles) baba. Man: And your hometown? - I was born in Britain, England in London. Man: In London and your birth date? - 11th of the 12th 77. Man: And your age? (speaking in foreign language) Okay. Man: Should we go, please? (speaking in foreign language) (door clicking open) Woman: Do you wanna play with us? (Tarek laughing) Emma would like to go outside, but I don't know if your comfortable with me taking her outside. - I don't think. No, I think... Woman: Okay. Man: Okay, age? - Age 31. Man: Nationality? Like, are you a British? - Yeah, I was born a British, Britain. Man: So, you're a Britain citizen? - Yeah I'm British citizen. Emma: Baba. (speaking in foreign language). Man: The religion? - Muslim. Man: Do you speak any other languages besides English? - Arabic. Man: Marital status? - Single. Man: Single, okay. Two children? - No. Man: Okay, you don't wanna talk about it. - No. - Okay. Man: And your current place of residence is London? - London. Man: And do you know? Do you remember when you arrived in Guantanamo and when you left? - I arrived, May the first, 2002 and left March the ninth, 2004. - Okay, we wanna begin by asking you to describe what happened when you were first arrested up to the time you went to Guantanamo. Just between the time you were arrested, to the day you went to Guantanamo (mumbles). - Okay. I was hooded, but I was in a hospital being treated for my wounds by the Afghans. And for about five weeks, I was given antibiotics, some proper medications, I was being fed pretty well. Five weeks into my stay and I was hooded and put into a pickup, taken to a field, helicopter landed, sold to the Americans for $5,000 and then taken to Bagram Airbase. When I landed in Bagram Airbase, I was put in a... It seemed space with heavy lighting. I was still hooded. I sensed there was people around me. I was then taken into a room to be, as they call, processed. And they unhooded me and undressed me fully. I was fully naked. There was maybe about 10 people in a room, Moroccan army uniform and they were taking pictures just of my whole body. They were taking notes and taking swabs. And basically I was, as they called, being processed. Then I was put into a blue jumpsuit and I was taken into another room. This is in the Bagram Airbase. And another big room, I was taken to put on a bed, a stretcher bed and then basically interrogator come to me and he said to me, "I'm your ticket home." And then he said, "Well, we'll talk later." And then he went. I stayed in Bagram for about five weeks and I was given antibiotics and painkiller once throughout my whole stay. I was told by the Afghan doctors that I needed to be keep taking my antibiotics 'cause my feet might get infected. So I kept telling the doctors, basically I need antibiotics for my feet, antibiotics for my feet 'cause I was suffering from frostbite. And I was refused apart from one time. After five weeks, I was hooded, lined up with other hostages and then we were put on a, I think, a helicopter and then take them to Kandahar. Kandahar, the conditions are totally different. Bagram was snow and ice and Kandahar was hot, was very, very hot, maybe 40 degrees. And there I was also refused medication. They kept taking me back and forth to interrogation and on one time to interrogation 'cause of my condition and amputated the arm, had frostbite of my feet, I wasn't able to walk at a fast pace. So the guards on either side would actually push me to walk faster. And then my big left toe flipped on the floor, I sort of stood on it and it cut. It got infected, after about two or three days, it was full of pus. Exactly like... (speaking in foreign language) Two or three days after my foot been cut, just a slight cut, it got infected, filled up with pus like if you was to film the fly, exactly like that when the foot, you know, then I could've just pulled a nail off from so much pus. And I kept showing the guards. I kept showing 'em, "Look, my foot, "look at it, I need antibiotics." And their response was, "F-U-C-K, you f-ing terrorist. "You don't get nothing." And that happened a couple of times. Otherwise they would just ignore me. One day, a lady doctor, she was maybe about, very short, 5'5" or something, 5'6". She, blonde hair, she basically... She saw my foot, I showed her my foot and then she like took mercy on me and she said, "This guy needs, he needs an antibiotic, "his foot is affected." So she started me on antibiotics that day, came back to me the next day and said to me, "No, it's too late, "the toe needs to come off." I was taken into a tent area which was a medical surgical room and a doctor, a trainee doctor, a nurse and a interrogator, a Chinese lady interrogator, were there. And I was laid on a bed, I was given some serum, it made me dozy. Then they started operating on my toe. The doctor was talking the trainee doctor through it. The doctor, he looked in his 50s, the trainee doctor looked like in his 18, he wasn't even 20. And he was telling him exactly what to do. I was awake, I was conscious and a chisel was put to my toe and they were knocking it. And they were hammering at the chisel and I actually put my head up to see and I could see them two standing up my toe, you know and he's telling them, "Do it like this, "come left, right." And I'm being interrogated by a Chinese lady and asking me if I've seen any famous people, you know, sly questions and interrogation. It was as if it wasn't an interrogation, the questions weren't so blunt. And the guy next to me was in charge of putting serum and making I was dozy enough to not be so conscious. Then after, so basically, the training nurse is sowing away and he's doing everything, you know, he's just been talked through the whole process from from to cutting with a scalpel from to knocking at my toe and to it stitching it up. And I'm being interrogated the whole time. That was-- Man: So, were you able to answer the questions during that interrogation, if you were dozy? - I was... I knew what they was up to And so basically I made myself as if I was totally out of it. So therefore he wouldn't add any more serum and basically I would just, you know, I don't think... I can't remember if I answered questions enough. Emma: (mumbles). - Yeah, I can't remember if I asked them any questions, I asked questions, what the questions were exactly apart from that one, did you meet any famous people? I remember that one and I don't know if I answered it or can't remember exactly, but she was a Chinese lady, very attractive and it was an interrogation and an operation. Man: Before going back to Bagram, were you interrogated in Bagram? And were you in, you know, could you describe how those interrogations went? - Yeah, I didn't speak that much but yeah, Bagram, I was refused my medication that was asking for and I was interrogated. I mean, my conditions in Bagram was really bad. I was shaking 'cause it was freezing. I got unprotected left arm, so I have phantom pain and in the cold, any doctor will know in the cold that the phantom pain is extreme and my arm starts tensing up. You start to like all nerves start like a fist, I could feel like I've got a fist in my shoulder area. And so it does get painful, it's like I get shooting pains and anyone will tell you, your doctor will tell you this. And that's the condition. I was kept in those conditions, they were freezing. I wasn't given much food. Everyone was given like the same food which was like some raisins. It was out of a MRE pack, you know, the MRE pack. It was some raisins, it was like a microwave meal thing. And it wasn't warmed up or anything, it came the way it came. And I can't remember who gave us water and now and again, again, there's orange or an Apple. And this was the food that they gave, the Afghani bread, a little bit of Afghani bread. And everyone had the runs. They would take me all the way down to... I was hidden away in isolation block, an isolation room, 'cause it was all concrete. And now and again, when I needed to use the toilet, I was taken all the way down. Took me ages to go down because of my style of walking. And I was taking into the cages where everyone else was. There's about 15 cages beside each other. I was taken into one of the empty cages and I was taken to the back. I was made to sit on a half-cut barrel which was used as a toilet. Had like crap, it smelled disgusting and I was made to use the toilet. And then out there was asked me, before I went they would ask me, what are you gonna do, number one, or number two? And they would knock you down. And they would weigh you, everything. And everyone would be losing weight, everyone would be skinny, I was at my worst that time. There was heavy machinery in the background. Like I said, it was snow outside. Now and again, they'd let us walk outside, it was snow. In interrogation, a gun was put to my head and there was always a guard in the corner of the room with M16 military gun. And I'm basically and you'd hear gunshots. You would hear gunshots while being interrogated and screams. So all of this pressure. Man: And what kind of questions were they asking you in the first interrogation and later interrogations? - They would ask me basically from A to Z questions. Where are you from? What's your name? Man: They believe you when you answered that? Did they say anything about that? - Their system would be basically they ask you the questions and then another to ask you the same questions at faster pace. And another interrogator will come and ask you exactly the same questions at faster pace to see if you're consistent in your story. And then they... I kept asking for the British-- Man: Diplomat? - Yeah, like were are they gonna come? And they said, basically, they're coming, they're coming and then one day, they fake... The brown American guy will fake a British accent and it was so rubbish. And then they asked the same questions again, a million miles an hour. And basically that was that's kind of tricks they-- Man: Did MI5 ever show? - Yeah, MI5, they came and they saw the condition I was in. They sat down, there was a guard in the corner with an M16 as usual and they saw me shaking, literally, like a washing machine, like, you know, when it's rinsing. I was shaking like this, 'cause it was so cold, I couldn't hold myself. I'm not a kind of person to show my emotions but I was forced to, 'cause of my nerves and I was shaking like I was having a fit in front of them. And they didn't bother, they didn't bother. There was interest in asking me, you know, they're saying, "Just answer the questions "or blind and you won't go home." There wasn't interested in my welfare, they would basically used that opportunity, to get the information that they wanted to get. And that's it basically. Then they went. Man: Did the Red Cross come to Bagram? - Yeah, the Red Cross came when I was in general population. I was at the bottom of the other guys. They said, we're gonna come back in a couple days. They said they will come back in a couple of days and I will be able to write a letter home. Then which I was very interested, like, very like, anxious to do. Basically a day before they came, they took me up into isolation. And then I was asking like, "Well, where's the Red Cross?" 'Cause I knew they were coming back in a couple of days and the guards kept telling me, "Nope, they're not here, they're not here, "they're not here." And then, I knew they were coming so I slyly asked the question, like in a different way to the guard. And then he said, "Oh, they're gone now." And you know, he didn't know that I knew. And then basically I kicked up a fuss and I said, "When I get back home, "I'm gonna take pictures of my feet "and I'm gonna put them in newspaper "and I'm gonna say this what you guys done." And in the night, an interrogator came and he woke me up fiercely, he dragged me and he said, "Get up." And then they took me next door and he slammed my head into the radiator, back of my head into the old school radiators, the old design shape. He slammed my head into the radiator and then he laid me out on my stomach and got on my back and put me in a headlock. And he said, he threatened to send me to Morocco, Egypt, or Cuba. And I didn't understand the Cuba thing, I was thinking it didn't sound right. And then he said, "I wouldn't be scared "to take that one off a one-armed man." And he was swearing, effing and blinding. That was that. Woman: I have a question about the Chinese woman, who did she work with? Do you know? - She looked like she was in civilian clothes. Woman: But you didn't identify if she was CIA or...? - No, I can't remember. I doubt it, I doubt she would have, but-- Woman: But she wasn't wearing military? - No, she wasn't (mumbles). Man: Why would they put you in isolation? Do you know? - Your background, because of that Red Cross. Yeah, definitely-- Emma: Baba, baba, ba. - I mean, they never said it, but I mean, I concluded that because it was obvious that I was British and I'm gonna be telling them stuff. And you know-- Man: And when you ask for doctors, still in Bagram, then we'll get to Cuba, when you ask for doctors in Bagram, did they say, "You're not gonna see a doctor?" Or they just ignored you or--? - Yeah, no, yeah, they sent doctors, yeah. They sent them, yeah, they came to me and then they would ask me the questions, blah, blah and I'll tell 'em, then they say, "Okay, enough for all of you, now go." And it was one doctor that gave me, like I said, I got antibiotic and painkiller once in Bagram. So that was it. It wasn't the same doctors all the time. So it was the one doctor that gave me that medication, that one time, or ordered it to be given. Man: The rest of the doctors-- - Yeah, they never gave-- Man: And at Kandahar, the doctors didn't do anything either except when they one time. - Exactly, that lady that I mentioned, yeah. It was her that started the whole process of me. You know, I don't know, that could have spread, Who knows? That could have spread up to my whole leg or something. I mean, there was no need for it to be... There was no need for it to be amputated in the first place. If I had just got the antibiotics, my toe would have been still there now. Man: Were you otherwise taken out and mistreated while you were in Bargam, or in Kandahar? Were there other incidents? Or did you see other people being mistreated? - Yeah, in Kandahar, they... Sorry, in Bagram Airbase, they in a hangar, it was a big, massive hangar. They played a game called beat down, as they called it. I've never, ever seen. I've heard of... I've asked late when I asked the guard, what does beat down mean, explain to me? It's American game show or something. But basically, beat down and they used to holding baseball bats and they would make the Afghanis in the next cell was across on the right of me, they would make them assume sitting positions without a chair, you know? Or just made to stand on, meeting on the knees and if they moved, they'll be hours and hours on end. And if they move, they would go in and beat them with a baseball bats. And to an extent that there was one time a guy basically, who knows whether they killed him or not? He was just... He couldn't get up. So they dragged him. Two guards came in and dragged him out basically and they took him out somewhere else. And who knows whether he was alive or he died, or anything. Man: So they didn't do that to you-- - No, specifically they was very harsh on the Afghanis. Man: Why do you think on the Afghanis and not on the English, or the Brit? - Or even the Saudi Arabians or even the Gulf, or other countries. There are so many countries that they could have done it to, but they concentrated on Afghanis. Maybe 'cause that was their country and, you know, impossible for them to get in trouble for it or not to get (mumbles). Man: And when they held you in Bagram, did they tell you why they were holding you? - I can't remember. Man: And in Kandahar, did they tell you why they were holding you? Or they tell you like all those different countries, they didn't say much else about, they tell you that you're gonna be there for a long time, or do they tell you anything at all about it? - They said forever. Yeah, they say forever. They said, basically, you not going home. You're gonna stay forever. They said that they gave us... They said that your family, you know, your bank accounts are being checked. This was told to me by the British and the Americans. That your bank accounts are being checked, your family bank accounts are been seized and, you know, we're speaking to your family and blah, blah and, you know... Yeah, so, I mean, they made it seem as if something, it wasn't. So they were definitely exaggerating, you know? Man: Is there anything else you saw in Kandahar, the likes of other people, how they were treated? So did you see any other incidents? (speaking in foreign language) - In Kandahar there was also a front... Don't know how we call it. The tent or the block. It's like it was a massive one, well, it was a tent and then it was like barbed wires going all around. So I don't know what you call that. But basically there was a tent in front of us and one day they brung in a load of Afghanis. Just got off the plane fresh and they put them in there and they made them all go on their knees. The floor was like, you know, like, you know, you go to countries like Africa, you know, know the floor is just like stones and sand and it's just uneven. And basically they would make you go on your knees, like on that surface and which would be very hard and the sun will be beaming. So they made the Afghanis do that for like forever, you know? There was no time limit, there was no... They just left them like that and no one was gonna tell them to get up or anything. And then basically when they started dropping, until they started literally dropping and there was another occasion over a distance, they would like, they hold like Afghanis as well in a line and instead of like, just letting them walk into the cell, they will literally, they won't have any chains on their feet, they would just grab them from their backs, scruff the neck from the back and the back of the trousers and they would just like throw them into the cells on the floor in their cells. Yes. Man: Was there any resistance? Did you notice any of the people who were captured resisting the guards? - Not really, 'cause there was like, it wouldn't... There was towers all over the... It was the airport, yeah, Kandhar Airport. And they had guns and it was the outside guards. Like every guard had a gun. So there wasn't, no, there wasn't. I mean, there wasn't any resistance and also can I say, that they will do cell searches. Every now and again they would do cell searches and they would say, "Everyone, get to the back, "get to the back." You know, everyone had to go to the back of the huge cage, whatever you call it and go on their knees. There will be guards right in front of them with M16 facing at them. And about five different guards would come in and ransack the whole place, the tent, the area. And to be caught (mumbles) there, they rip him up, they'll throw him in a bucket, in small bucket which is used a toilet and they let you sleep there would actually ends in there. They will... And basically, you know, and so they would just like throw everything upside down. Blankets and everything can be just thrown upside down. And they'll just leave. And if there was any apples, or anything left over that wasn't allowed to be kept as well. Apples, or any raisins, or anything, they will take that and they would take that with them. And they would always take from the food, they would never give you a full meal. It's always find something lacking in the meal. And there was a isolation barn, I don't know if it was a barn or something, it was massive. And it would just, it had five on one side, then five on the other. And there was, higher up on either side, there was two guards with guns. And in that isolation block which I was kept, in that isolation barn, should I say, no one was allowed to speak. And there was rats and insects and little, like it was a lot of wildlife, all on the floor like sand. It was sand, do you know what I mean? And then basically a million... I know a guy called Ahmed Errachidi, a Morocco who I hope you're gonna see 'cause he's got very, very good... He'll tell you the precise detail of a lot of things. We was beside each other and basically he was like, you know "I'm gonna call to prayer." (Tarek chuckles) And I said, "You know, you can't talk aloud." And he didn't give a damn, he just got up and was, "Allahu Akbar Allahu." I was like, "Stop, stop, stop." And basically and when I saw him do that, he gave me encouragement, then I got up and done it, the next prayer. And then we just started and then they couldn't do nothing, which is pretty-- Man: You have (mumbles) with you? - There you didn't, no. You didn't have, no. I think, no, I actually didn't it's isolation. Man: So they never did anything when he started praying. - Yeah, they didn't. He was, later on in Cuba, he was punished. He was one of those guys they put on sleep deprivation for like months and he really lost a lot of weight. So that was, yeah, I couldn't see him later on. 'Cause he's like an influential person, that he's really... 'Cause he lived in this country for 18 years, but he hasn't got citizenship. Speaks perfect English and he was just like, he just knew them inside out and he would just like, they would just hate him 'cause he would know, all the rights and stuff. Man: And I'll ask you more about him when we get to Guantanamo. I want to ask you after you had your surgery on your foot, was it improved even though you lost the toe? Was the pain less intense? - Yeah, there was no pain in the first place, 'cause I really didn't have much sensation in my feet at that time. Man: Oh. - I forgot to say I wasn't able to feed myself when I was in Bagram, or Kandahar. My hand, I couldn't actually hold even a glass. If I was to hold the glass, it would just fall out of my hand. You know when your hand's numb, that pins and needles, it was literally like that and I couldn't get a grip on it. It took a while for it to... For me to get my sensation in my hand. And there would be no one cutting open my meals, or anything. And I had to do everything by teeth or my knees and with one hand. And plus having that hand not fully functioning. Man: Did you show that to the doctors too? - Not really, yeah, I wouldn't really do that. I mean, not try and... But they could see that he just got his... He could just about get his meal open. Emma: (speaking in foreign language). - When I was in-- Emma: (Speaking in foreign language) - When I was in Afghani custody... (speaking in foreign language) When I was in Afghani custody, I was being fed by one of the Afghanis. (speaking in foreign language) Man: We take a break? Woman: I'm just gonna fix it, you can... Man: Let us take a break from your interview. - Cool. (speaking in foreign language) (camera clicking) (speaking in foreign language) (camera clicking) I knew that it's got a really good camera on that. Got a camera myself, I was just got recently one of these. Man: Huh. - It's not bad. - Really? - Yeah. - They take AA batteries. I mean it better to have that, but this actually is a video cameras well. Man: Is it? - Yeah, it's a video camera with a voice. And you know the cheapy ones cost about 58 Pounds. Man: That's really? What do you have here? And it takes good photos? - Yeah, it take good photos and it's a video and it takes AA batteries, it doesn't take--- Yeah. Man: Oh, that's where the money is. Okay, for the batteries. - Yeah and then it takes an SD card which-- Man: Oh, really? - Yeah. (speaking in foreign language) Take advantage of this time. (speaking in foreign language) Woman: They have film cameras like these? That's nice, yeah. - Yeah, it's-- Man: 58 pounds what a deal, huh? (camera clicking) (speaking in foreign language) Woman: He can help him, right? - Yeah, I'll bring it in with the feeling. Woman: Okay, whenever you're ready. - Okay. (camera clicking) Emma: (mumbles). - Okay. Man: So you're saying about your left hand, that you couldn't hold anything. - So, okay. Man: You couldn't hold anything with your hand. - Yeah, I couldn't hold anything with my hand and basically, I wasn't... Like when I was in Afghani custody, the Afghanis used to... The guy who brung the food would feed me. Would actually, would literally like, pick up my glass and give it to me and feed me. When I was in the American custody I wasn't given any medication and I wasn't giving any, I wasn't... Disabled basically, for a disabled person, I wasn't given any attention at all. Man: And after the operation, or the surgery, did anything change in terms of, you said you had no pain to begin with so it made no difference for the toe. Did it make any difference at all in how you felt afterwards, or you know, change? - Yeah, it did, my walking wasn't exactly the same. I mean, at that time I'd have no sensation but now I've started to, you know, even years after, I've started to get my sensation back. And it's just it's not a nice, you know, it's not a nice seeing you're toe missing. And it wasn't even, you know, there was no need. I mean, if I just got the antibiotics. Man: And how much after that surgery, did you go to Guantanamo? Was it soon after, or were you still in Kandahar when you were interrogated? - I think I stayed in exactly, I probably stayed, probably about a couple of months after that I was taken to... Man: And can you describe how those two months were? Did anything change from the time you first arrived? - No, nothing, nothing. In fact, it kept getting worse. There was no special treatment for anyone. Basically, it was the same for everyone. I think the first time they had to put me on, I couldn't walk, so they had to put me on some sort of stretcher and they had to... Yeah, I remember they took me once to an interrogation and they put... I can hear like, 'cause every time you went to interrogation in Kandahar you couldn't see, it had to have a bag of your head. And one time they will play music, I think Slim Shady, or whatever you call it. I can hear them listening to it somewhere, I don't know where it was coming from exactly. But on my way to interrogation, I could hear that playing. And it was one of the same guards that used to take me to interrogation. And everyone was just having a good time. You know, all the Americans, they were just having a good time and everything was fun, everything was cool. You know, helicopters were flying overhead, the Apaches that will come and start and they would literally like stand like there on the tree trunk, on the tree branch and stand in front of us. Sometimes they would fly as low, extremely low. So they were-- Emma: Daddy. (speaking in foreign language) - So the Americans were just basically having a very good time as I could see. Man: Were they held in interrogation for a long time? Do they keep you in the room for... (Tarek coughing) How long did they keep you in the room at times? - Probably about an hour, an hour and a half. I think the first important place would be Bagram. Basically, they would, if your, from what I understood, if you was processed from Bagram and go to Kandahar, then basically you'd be like... You'd be okay to, you know... You wouldn't be a big deal, basically. All the information would have been extracted in Bagram. Your story would have been cleared and in Kandahar, they will take it. It would be a bit not so extreme. (speaking in foreign language) Man: So before we go to Guantanamo, I just wanna clarify again, so when the, did you say the British delegation, whomever, came to visit you? Or who came to visit you. Once you were at Kandahar, can you say once they faked a British accent, but did the Bush delegation ever come to you, or they never came during that time? - In Bagram? Man: Or in Kandahar? - Yeah, in Kandahar, they came I think maybe twice they came and basically they offered no information, any more information, they just come with exactly the same what kind of questions, but roughly they're the same questions they asked and they just said basically, you know, just help the Americans and you'll come back home and that's it. Man: And when you went in isolation, how was that like? Can you describe what that was like during, you know, how long you were in isolation? - In Kandahar? - Yeah. - I was in isolation, yeah, in a barn place I was telling you for about maybe five days, or a week. 'Cause I was next to Ahmed. It was like, it was a bit fun. 'Cause we were like, we were talking to each other, whispering and stuff and like cracking jokes. But it seemed like a long time. It seemed like a long, long time. And after we was taken out and it was amazing because I remember actually when I first I was in one of the places, the tents, basically when I was first taken and then like a week later or something, they said, "Go to the back, go to the back, go to the back." Everyone's going to the back on the knees, facing the other way. Then they will bring in someone and then they will place him on the floor and put their knees on him and then take the chains off and they'll run out before he was able to get up up and maybe grab them or something. So one day that was Ahmed and Ahmed didn't get up. I then got up and walked over and he was still on the floor, he didn't move. So yeah, went over to him and the first thing that coming to my mind was that as if this guy fell out of the sky. The way he was landed on the floor. And that's when we first became friends. And he still is amazing, this guy I think he's wrote a book. And he was the guy that preached to the American guard, he became Muslim. Yeah, so, he's amazing person, he's amazing. And so basically that was my first, that was why I didn't make it up after, and that was that my first physical feel was like as close came up to this... And then he would tell me his stories things that used to happen to him in Bagram, where they didn't pray. They forced him, they stopped him from praying. And then basically he's screaming and shouting at them. And then afterwards, like five minutes after, an earthquake took place and all the guards run out. They just ran for their lives. They just run outside the hangar. And yeah, and it was amazing, and they used to make him drink bottles of water. Bottles and bottles and bottles and they used also make him assume the sitting position and stuff. And he was telling me these stories one day when he was walking around at night, around the tent area. And then basically I was laughing, I was literally in stitches as he's telling me these stories. And then they saw us. And then the next day they took him to isolation. So, I think that's why they took him to isolation. And then a day after they took me to isolation and then they put me beside him. And then took us out of isolation and then they put us in the same block. So it was... I'm sure they didn't I mean. Maybe they did. It was amazing just to be beside him. Woman: You told us this one else, what's his name again? - Ahmed Errachidi. - Ahmed Errachidi. - Yeah. Man: And did he help you enjoy this? It sounds like he helped inspire you and keep going. Was that... How did you handle being in Bagram, or in Kandahar when you met him? Was he a good support for you? - Yeah, he was. He basically put things into perspective. (speaking in foreign language) Yeah, he was 'cause he was like, at that age, at that time, I think I was 36 or something like that. But basically he was like experienced as a chef. He literally was a chef and he was telling like he's getting like 600 Pounds a week in his job. And so basically, and he was like experienced in his life and he's been different countries. He's traveled and stuff. So he was telling me, basically, this is how it is and you know, and he's telling me Quran aides as well. At first he saw the Quran, that the prophets, you know, they went through the similar same thing and they were prophets from God. And they got tortured and persecuted and assassined. And yeah, so you can imagine who are we? So he was telling me things that keep you patient and stuff you mentioned, versus he make you like, understand basically why, you know, we're here and stuff and say, "Lift your head up." You know, and he make you feel like you're honored, basically. Like it's, you're getting rewarded for this. You know, this is nothing gets... Nothing goes, except when an angel writes it. So, yeah, it was special. Man: So could you describe how it happened that they sent you to Guantanamo, what happened just before you were sent and how the trip went to Guantanamo? - Shh (mumbles) shh. (speaking in foreign language) Figured out how to use it. (Tarek chuckles) (speaking in foreign language) Woman: He is (laughs). - That's fine, shh. I was taken to a tent area, stripped naked, full cavity search was done on me, as every place was done. Any port I was taken to before a trip out, before any trip, stripped naked, full cavity search was done, this is standard. And I was dressed in a... Pictures are taken and I was dressed in a in a group orange jumpsuit just time. And I was taken, goggles were put on my head, goggles and ear muffs and taken to like a bench. Like in the football stadiums when they got the bench, long bench, then they got the bench behind it, above it, and then that bench, behind the other ones. So, like that kind of design. And they would, I could just see at a corner of my goggles, if I angled my head and basically it was rows of us sitting down with goggles and the ear muffs on. And sat there for hours. It seemed hours, I don't know how long it was. It would just seem just like a nightmare. It just seemed too long. Then we were taken outside and then we sat down. We had to cross our feet with chains, shackles also. And then we had to wait there for ages as well. (speaking in foreign language) And I was taken outside the tent and made to sat on the floor with my feet folded. It seems a long time as we were in the sun, just everything seemed hours and hours. And then finally a plane came, they put us on the plane and they took off. That plane journey was my worst experience throughout my whole incarceration with the Americans. Basically, it was just the worst. And what it was, because the trip was so long, it seemed like hours and hours, maybe a whole day, 18 hours or something, I think I gave it. And what it was, my ear was flipped over like this, the elastic from the air muffs, or the goggles and AC was blowing as well on my head here. So I've got this pain here and I remember thinking to myself, let me just die. If I can just die. Literally the pain was just too much and it was only... You know, the ear was only flipped over and it was from the elastic. And it was just amazing pain, it was amazing. And my head was killing me from the small things. There's that little air the AC events in the airplanes, and it was blowing literally on my head and it was just killing me, killing me. Couldn't use the toilet, no food, urinate on yourself. Then the plane stopped somewhere. I'm not sure where, seemed that it was dark, that's all I can remember and it was warmish kind of atmosphere. And I've taken off the plane, like dragged off the plane. The cuffs are so tight, you know, across my feet and my arm and I was dragged off that plane up a ramp to another plane. Then that plane took off and it took, I don't know how many more hours, maybe just 1/4 of the time that I was on the other flight. And then we landed, it was in Cuba. Man: Did you ever tell any of the guards that the elastic was too tight on your ear? - No, I didn't. I don't know what reason I didn't. I can't remember whether I was scared, or whether I was too proud to do that, or I don't know what. Or maybe they wouldn't, I don't know what reason, but, you know, I didn't. But and then we got to Cuba and pictures were taken so as well, pictures, you can see flashes, yeah, flashes being taken and stuff, so it's pictures. Basically, the best thing is like, I didn't want them to like me and the guards know that I was British, they'll wanna speak. 'Cause I was scared just in case I'll get worse treatment. And, you know, they would concentrate on me more, so I wouldn't let them, I wouldn't speak. But, and then we got to Cuba. Cuba, we was taken off this plane and I was put on the bus, on the floor of a bus. While I was anyway at the front. And when I went a bit and then it went over some water when it was like sort of a boat or something, on some water in the area and then it went off again. And then they put us on the floor. Then they took us into this cubics that they had. There was a shower there. They made you strip naked and take a shower. Everyone watching, was about 10 easy, 10, 15 people easily there. Even in uniform and you was made to take a shower in front of them. Then you was taken again and then a full cavity search was done again and they just processed, weighed, pictures taken. And then and everyone's having a good time, as they always do, as they always seems on the face of it they are. Then I was taking... And then at that point, I thought this is my chance to, you know, it seemed like there was a bit of organization. It seemed like I was in a place that maybe I could get some help. Some system in place. It seems like there's a system in place, everything's indoors now. So I told them I was a British citizen and I kept saying it and I said, "I've got my feet, you know, I got frostbite on my feet." I was taken to another room, put on a stretcher. And I was given two injections into my like far backside area. I was asked what there was and they said that it's for your wellbeing. I kept telling about my feet and then they took me to a blue... They took me to a place which was a blown up tent, which was like a hospital. And there are saw Abdul Aziz and (mumbles) and Abdul Aziz had a tube up his nose. He's hunger striking from Camp X-ray 'cause when I arrived, I arrived when Camp X-ray was finished and abolished. And I arrived in Camp Delta. So he was still on hunger strike from Camp X-ray and Red Cross said... And red cross man told me that it's been documented in their files or something, that he hunger striked for 100 days without food. I saw that through the water, so it rolled. And it initially showed because he was Ethiopian. It's like one of those pictures, you know, his bones were sticking out, chest was caved in. So this is my first visual of this hospital when I came. I was put on the bed and then they start. They would come every day and put my feet in warm water and start scrubbing away at my feet 'cause it was like frostbite. It was like dead skin, purple, I mean purple blue-black kind of skin. Really, really, dark, horrible. So they would come in every day and start peeling away and so it took them about maybe about a week to get it off, literally. Yeah then they brought in Mamdouh Habeb, Australian. They brought him, putting beside me. And then when they brought him, they closed the tent. They closed the curtain, so we couldn't see the other guys. So it's just me and Mamdouh on the space. And Mamdouh told me about his situation. And basically he was sent to Australia and tortured and then sent to Kandahar, then sent to Cuba. And I actually testified in court for him, from London here on the phone. I testified when I was actually cross examined by a prosecutor and spoken to by a judge on the phone concerning this. 'Cause I was a witness in this case basically. And when I first came out I told his story and you know, Channel 5 came over from Australia and I told them of a certain interview of them and then after two months he got released from Cuba. So it was, his story is pretty interesting as well. And he was basically, he couldn't stand up on his own, when he stood up, he's had to close his eyes and they didn't believe him. They didn't believe his story, he told them that he went through torture and, you know, he's ill. And they would just say, "Your a bull. "Bull, whatever." And after three or four days with me there, they took him back to isolation. So I was there on my own after that. Man: When you say they, were you in the hospital this whole time? - Yeah, it was about... I stayed there for about maybe, for the whole time a week, probably a week and a bit. Man: And could you talk to any of the hunger strikers while you were there? - I could, yeah. After Mamdouh went, before he came and after he went, the curtain wasn't open between us, so I would be able to speak to them, yeah. Man: And would they tell you? That's how you knew about the 100 day hunger strike, they had told you that? - No, that was a Red Cross guy. Yeah, I can't remember where I saw the Red Cross guy. If it was after, or at the same time. But yeah, I actually to one of the guys, the Red Cross guys and they said that, it's been documented for 100 days, hunger strike for 100 days. And he told me himself, after a while he was in the regular blocks and I was beside him and he told me that he was actually a fat person, literally overweight. Like literally, like when, if you saw him, he was actually like about three times skinnier than you, without exaggeration, literally. And he was just like, had no meat on him at all. And his chest was caved in and shoulders were coming out like... Man: Do you know how many times a day he was fed? He was fed? - He had it 24/7 up his nose. Man: He had the tube always up his nose? - Yes, yeah. Man: Was it lying down, or sitting up? - He was lying down, yeah, but he was... Everyone was shackled to the bed. Every time he had to go to the toilet, they would come and put shackles on him and then two guards would have to hold him up while going. And basically I would say to him, you know, when he walked passed, I said to him, "Just, do you know what I mean? "Try and stop it." And I was very wise in my words, and there wasn't much time to speak on him while he's walking past me. But I found out after, you know, the other guys said to me, just to lay off, you know what I mean? 'Cause he's like all that is being free and you're just gonna disencourage him and stuff. So he wasn't getting really like that advice. Some of that. Man: And how were the doctors treating you during that week you were in the medical clinic? - You know, I thought I was... When I was there, I was thinking, this is not bad. This is good service, you know? It was actually good. And then I was thinking, I felt comfortable after Bagaram and Kandahar when I there, even though I was in prison and God knows where I was 'cause we didn't know about Cuba then, we heard about Cuba. Really, c'mon, man, Cuba, prison. So we didn't never been there. And no one believe it everyone thought it was in South Africa. Some people, you know, everyone thought where we was and they kept saying, "No, we're not there." And kept saying, "It's not that direction." And it was crazy, all these stories going around. And even when they told us, "Here you are," blah, blah. We still didn't believe it, so it just stuck. And I actually felt this is good. But that stopped after Miller came. Man: And where did they take you after the seven days in the clinic? - After the seven days, they took me to the regular blocks. It was Camp 1 Hotel Block. They put me in cage number 15. Man: Were there other people nearby? - Yeah, there was the whole block was full. The whole block consisted of 48 hostages, 24 on one side and 24 opposite. And it was just, it was crazy. The noise in that place was absolutely amazing, it's like, everyone's speaking at the same time and some people shouting and it was like a mental hospital, it was crazy. And the heat and then the clothes they've given us and there was no air. Man: What kind of clothes had they given you? - They gave us the famous orange clothes you see? It's like a jumper and trousers. It's not a jumpsuit, it's like a jumper and trousers. And there's no air at all, it's just humid and it's extremely hot. And basically the noise, it was just amazing. And you couldn't get your concentration, you know? There was mesh all around the cage. So if you look like a diamond shape mesh, so if you looked at the person next to you, next door to you, you'd have to focus like through the mesh. And after a while, when you look away, your eyes will be like not in focus. So that would affect us as well. They had this machinery working, it's a stupid design, which they had like it was a long block and you probably seen, there's like these things at the top of that, you might've seen outside the blocks. There's these massive, like the cooker when it's got the... It sucks, the air. That's what I had, basically. I know what they call them, extractors or something. About four of those along the block and it didn't do nothing. It just made a huge noise and what was it extracting? We're looking for air, we want something to blow in air and having something sucking, to the extent that when a guard used to walk past, they used to take the hats off and put it on and put on the AC and have it like stuck there. You know, they used to do like a little show for us, they used to come and put the hat there and walk off and then come back and then grab the hat, and put it on the walk off. So to that extent, I mean, and it was ridiculous. But all of that, it was a million times better than Bagram and Kandahar. And the food was okay. But keep in mind, this in case it gets edited, the food is okay when before Miller came and treatments okay before Miller came. But as soon as Miller came, forget all of that. I think I'd rather, probably go back to Kandahar, I feel Kandahar will probably be me best place. Man: How do you know when Miller came in? How do you know it was Miller who made the changes? - Because before he came there was an General who would go around the whole block. He had a fat ring on him one of these fingers, or I remember the short stubby guard. And he would walk around the whole camp with a book or notepad and ask you, "What can we do to make your stay better? "How can we make your services more easier?" And then everyone would give their bit. Some people say football, some people will say, I don't know, pen or paper. So, never thought anything of it. We just, you know, yeah, they're asking us, why not? There's nothing in it, just tell him, you know. So after this, a little while after, Miller came. Then we know, then all these things that we were telling him to put down on paper, got implemented in a level system. So it was level one, level two, level three, level four. And level one was the best level. You had two cups and a bottle. Before Miller came, everyone had this, everyone had it. So when Miller came, he introduced the level system which meant level one would have two cups, one bottle, two sheets, two blankets, a big bar, some huge bar of soap, a toothbrush, actual normal toothbrush and maybe some other bits that I can't remember. Then level two would have like one cup only. Sorry, yeah, a cup only. And then you have like two blankets and one sheet. Then you come down, you know, like a medium bar of soap. Then level three would have less. Level four would have a blanket and a mat, that's it. So there were four was the worst level and I was on level four most of the time. Man: Why do you think? - Because, basically I would translate for the guys. I would translate and I would participate in hunger strikes and protests. So basically I would always be being punished Man: Why did you go on hunger strikes and protests? - Come, come, come, come, come, come. (speaking in foreign language) Yeah, he's actually being good. (speaking in foreign language) I was on hunger strike because of the oppression that would be taking place. Basically, they were telling us we're not going home. And when they said that, it seemed true the way they backed it up with shaving our beards, whatever they wanted for punishment. Shaving our hair, our facial hair, even our eyebrows, that's at times, and this will be filmed. This is documented in an archive that they have. They would use the Quran and as a punishment tool. Take the Quran away from us as a punishment tool. The call to prayer, they would play when it shouldn't be played, when it's not time for prayer. They will pray loud, they will pray low, they would rap over it, they would scratch it, they would pray the Fajr one, the morning one, at night time, et cetera. Man: When was this? Do you remember the month and year? - That was for out whole stay. This was like, towards the end they stopped playing it. But halfway through, like from 2001 to 2003, the most of 2003, they were playing it. Man: And so you wouldn't go on a hunger strike with other people in the cells because of these incidents? Or was there any particular incident that...? - Okay, we will never hunger strike for other than the Quran. Yeah, so we would do strikes, for example, non-cooperation strikes. We wouldn't cooperate with the interrogators, or we wouldn't cooperate with the guards. We'll do anything to make it hard for them. Probably would rip up our plates, polystyrene plates, and everyone would just throw out aside into the walk area and it will just make their life really hard. And we might probably throw milk at them, water at them and abused them when they would shave, you know, the other prisoners' beards. And they would mock a prophet, mock God. So we would retaliate in a non-cooperation kind of way. But when it came to, like for example, I'll give an example, when you're in your cell praying, they would knock on your cell and say, "Cell search, cell search," and they know you're praying, but they don't give a damn. You either come out of your cell now, or we're gonna come in. And sometimes they would come in, like what would happen, if you wouldn't come out of your cell, they would call for the ERF, Extreme Reaction Force. I call them the five cowards, they would... (speaking in foreign language) Man: You were saying the five cowards? - Yeah, the five cowards, basically, if you did not wanna leave your cell any reason, they would call for these five cowards. And what it was is basically these guards, everyone knows who they are. Every day, they've got like a set day that who's working this ERF as they call it. And so basically what would happen is one block would have a hostage that doesn't wanna get out of the cell. So they would call, they would say on the radio, "ERF, ERF, ERF block Hotel," for example. Then the guards could be on any camp and they would know who they are. So they would go rushing like Superman, you know, like these five guys, you know, if you let it on a movie, it would actually seem like pretty cool. So then everyone would just run to whatever and they would run to these boxes and put their (mumbles), they run to the block with the guy who's gonna be attacked. And there'll be a box outside with motorbike helmet, with body got armor and all these crazy stuff. And they'll put it on, then they would march into the block doing big stamps. Huge stamps, they would walk in and the first one will be holding a plastic shield. And basically, they would spray the guy with pepper spray, and this will be filmed. And then they will rush in and attack the person. They would knee them. It happened to me actually on a personal basis. They would knee me, punch me, smack your head into the toilet, which is a hole in the ground, flush the toilet on your head. Then they would drag you and take you out to the recreation yard, which was just a walking area outside and sit you up in a chair, shave your hair, your facial hair and this will be also filmed. And basically then take you to isolation, thrown in isolation. This would happen for basically, if we were striking, if you took out yourself for interrogation. For medical. If they called you for medical, and it was just a simple medical check, you'd say, "I don't wanna go." They'll say, "You can't refuse this." "I don't want to go," "You can't refuse." Okay, "ERF, ERF, ERF," then they'll come and get you. This would happen if you refuse to acclaim yourself for any reason, or sometimes it will happen for a set up, they even set you up. If they disliked a hostage, they would actually call on ERF, as they call it for short and then basically they will come in and attack the guy and the guy wouldn't even know why. And when you go to interrogate isolation, you ask them why I'm being punished, if you will translate, you know, for any other reason they would say, "You were inciting a riot." Or some other silly reasons. So it was hectic, the whole camp was upside down. It was just every day, there was like something happening. There was no mercy whatsoever from their side, anyway. It was just like, everything was happening every day. There was like, it was impossible to sit down. Nighttime, they wouldn't let you sleep. They would come and then they would knock on the thing, cell search in middle of the night. Put the lights on. In regular blocks, they put lights on like 90 Watt bulbs. Like two of 'em literally facing down at you and they would leave the main lights open, on. So basically it's just like 24/7, you're being tormented. He's holding the... (speaking in foreign language) Man: I wonder if we should take another break and see if he wants to go with his sister. You think, maybe? - And I think if it... Yeah, I think continue. He's really like, doesn't like to separate. Sorry. Man: Do you remember why they ERF'ed you that one time, what specifically happened? - Basically, what's his name? There's a guy, Saudi guy, called Farouq Meki. He was being, I don't know what they call, a frequent flyer, should I say? I don't know if you've heard of that. Man: Yeah, could you describe that for people who are watching this? - That's what they called, it was their term, frequent flyer, which meant that it was really like, it was sleep deprivation, torture. Basically, what they would do is they would have like these selected hostages and then they would they start this thing called frequent flyer, system thing. Which would mean that they would take them to interrogation for like eight hours, 10 hours, then they'll take 'em back to their block for two, three hours. Before they even... When they've been into a sleep for three hours, they'll wake them up and say, "Interrogation." For six hours, eight hours and then back to the cell again for two hours, three hours, then they'll go back again. So this will be like everyday for a month, or two months, literally no exaggeration. They would even take him to a block that's not even his, in which he would have nothing in his cell. So when he got there, he wouldn't even have a blanket or a mat and he would have to wait for his stuff to come and when it came, he'll be in interrogation. And when he came back, it will be in another block. Now this would happen to a lot of people, this happened to a lot of people there and when everyone tells you that this happened to you, so basically it's called a frequent flyer as I think, if I remember correctly, or sleep deprivation. This is the system they would use. And this, for some people, for basically, Ahmed Rashidi, this was happening to him. And it was just, you know, when you're in your cell, relaxing and it is relaxing, compared to the other guys, what things are happening to them. Some people are in isolation in Echo block, some people this frequent flyer thing, so you're in isolation, we're in a block, it's relaxing. So when you see, like we saw him basically come back and forth, back and forth, we'd be sleeping for like eight hours, nine hours. And then we wake up and then he's not even back from interrogation. So we thought, where's this guy? Where is he? He don't even come back, we don't even see him. When we think it was you, it was in isolation. Then he would go to another block and then he said, "I've been to this block now." And the guy done a whole tour of the whole block and he's come back to us and he still hasn't slept. This was the last five days ago. So when we heard this and the guys took a stand on the block and they said, "You know, this guy hasn't slept "for I don't know how many long." And he's over the period that we experienced him for. So you can imagine what was happening before. So we thought, no, we are in isolation and isolation, you always get the front line people. 'Cause anyone in isolation is a person who's gonna stand up for himself, not anyone else. So basically everyone took a stand and we said, "Yep, we're gonna... "Let's take a stance." So we called for the guard who's in charge, Sergeant of the guards, or whatever and he came and we said to him, "Listen, this guy is still interrogation. "What's the problem? "Why are you doing this to him? "Can you stop it?" Blah, blah, then he went back up you know, blah, blah and they said, "Nope, sorry." So he said, "Okay." We said (coughs)... So the guy said (coughs), "Basically we're not gonna give you the plates. "Plus simple polystyrene thing with plastic spoons. "We're not gonna give it back to you, "so we know this will cause a reaction. "We're not gonna give it to you." And we know what they're gonna do. Everyone knows that they're gonna call the ERF team. So everyone says, "Okay, don't give it to them "until they bring him back." It's like saying, "I'm gonna keep a bit of tissue, "you can't have it." So they took it serious as they usually do. So they brought the ERF team. One ERF team went in on every single cell, one by one. Can you imagine the same process, one by one, one by one-- Man: How many cells in blocks is there? - India block. So if I remember, it was India block. If I'm correct, it's 24 cells, 12 and 12. Man: And the ERF went from cell to cell for 24 cells? - Yeah, for cell for cell for 24 and-- Woman: How many cells are an Echo? Echo's isolation, right? - No, Echo, yeah, is... I've never been to Echo. Echo is just isolation, but it's not like a normal block. Woman: So do you know how many isolation cells they actually had different people in? - No, no, I wouldn't know that. Mosa, if you ask Mosa, he would know. Woman: Okay, but when they took you from the ERF'ing to isolation or punishment? - I don't know that. Woman: You don't know, you-- - No, that wouldn't be the isolation, that it wouldn't be Echo, that will be India, or Oscar, or November. That's, yeah, those three isolation blocks, India, which was 24 cells, Oscar, 48 and November, I think it was 36 (mumbles). So, basically they went on each person one by one, one by one, one by one and it took a long time for them to reach me. And then I actually had my face near the door and then they open the hatchet, the food hatchet... (speaking in foreign language) Man: Your face is by the door and they open the hatchet. - Yeah, my face was at the door and they opened the hatchet and they basically sprayed me with pepper spray, close range. They were standing at the door waiting for me, it was a trap and then they sprayed it and it hit me, I think in my left eye here, my left eye, literally close range, pepper sprayed my left eye. And that's it, I was gone. I threw up on the floor and they waited. They don't come in, I mean, they don't come in without pepper spray. They'll spray you when you're totally knocked out and then the five cowards will come in and attack you. So they've done that with me, they took me out and they took me outside to recreation area and I was screaming, "I've got it in my eye, in my eye!" Imagine the guy who couldn't speak English he didn't know how to utter the words. He would've probably would've went blind. And I only say it's the mercy from God, these certain guards were sent by God. I'll never ever give it to them. That they sprayed me with water in my eye, which helped cool it. And the-- Man: Is it the same guards as the guards who pulled you out? - No, no, it was that. The guards, they stay dressed ready for the next attack. But yeah, so basically they done it and they went to stop. They went to stop and I kept telling... (speaking in foreign language) (distant car engine revving) (speaking in foreign language) Yeah, I don't know if you... He might wanna... Man: Let's take a break. - Am I speaking a bit too fast? Man: No, not at all. Are we taking a break? Are we on a break? - It's rolling. Man: It's rolling? Okay. Woman: Yeah, you're on break (laughs). (speaking in foreign language) (door squeaking shut) (paper rustling) - So basically I would say they were sent by God, basically, and they kept spraying me water in my eye which I was telling him to do and they stopped, which was just the pain kept coming back and I kept grabbing the hose and I was able to grab the hose and just put it on my eye. And then they kept trying to take it off me. And I said, "No, it helps, it helps." So all this communication, I think maybe it was that, you know, also allowed me to be able to soothe the pain. And I couldn't literally see out of it until the next day. And I think it was still hurting, it was red, but I haven't got full vision now I must admit I was okay. So that's what happened. And then they went in on my other guys and Ahmed, and he was like, I remember he was facing me at the end. They went in on him after as well but he wasn't waiting inside. He came out to them, literally, you know, obviously they got him in the end, but he actually... You know, people... Sorry, I forgot to tell you. Before me, there was Isa Bahraini. He broke the tap of the sink and he waited for them. So when they came in he actually covered himself in a pepper spray and knew it wouldn't affect him and they fought. They came in and just sprayed him in the neck with the... When that happened, they got towels and they done like a loop thing and they put it through for the neck. And the wet towel, I don't know how they do it. But they put it round and on the necks basically. 'Cause that area was exposed that was the only area that had been exposed. And he's a really, really big guy. So basically, you know, it was a fight. It was crazy, it was crazy, you can imagine, like, one's gonna stop it. You know, no one's gonna stop it. No one's gonna come and say, "No, you guys out of all that, stop it." You know what I mean? It was just like, anything could happen, you know what I mean? And as you know, deaths have happened in Cuba and this is how I imagine deaths, some of the deaths happened, because they would literally poke your fingers in your eye. It never happened to me, but other guys, Omar, I've never sat and spoke to him actually about this but from his eye, I think it was from them guards and actually poked. Everyone would after we'll say, "Why was you screaming?" There was actually screaming, you think, what's happening? Sometimes they'll come on one guy and the whole block is listening. So, then you'd be screaming like intensely. Then you'd ask him what happened and he say, "They were poking their fingers in my eye." So they can do anything to jump on you. They literally... Muhammad Qurayshi from Saudia, they jumped on his back. (speaking in foreign language) So, yeah, Muhammad Qurayshi from Saudia, they basically, they were jumping on his back. Literally like two guards jumping on, literally full we know how heavy they are as well and they're jumping on his back. I forgot his name, but one of the guards was paralyzed, as you guys know. I forgot his name, he's from Saudi Arabia as well. He was actually literally paralyzed from the attack. Man: From the actual being jumped on? - Yeah, from being attacked by these five, yeah. I thought it was the actual, the guards of that block. I think it might be the guards of that block, not too sure. And basically, they drew blood from him and I was actually with this guy, translating for him a day before this happened. And I went. Basically, I was taken out by isolation 'cause I've completed a month. So I had to go outside the isolation for two days and then come back. So when I went, I was in the regular blocks. I can hear banging, banging, banging like the whole block was like this. Everyone was banging on the doors and you can hear it from miles away. So I was in it, I could hear it and we didn't know what was going on. Then the next day, I still have punishment. So I had to go back and complete that punishment. And when I went back, they told me exactly what happened. And then we thought he was dead. We thought this guy died and we kept basically... And the whole camp was striking and we thought they killed him and it came out after that, basically he's still alive and they sent one of them. They took one of the guys, one of the hostage hostages to go and see him so he can pass the message on to the other hostages and let them know that he's still alive. So everyone was calmed down and stop striking. Man: And had you seen him paralyzed afterwards? - He's actually still part of us to this day. He's still there. I forgot his name. His name... Woman: When was this done? - This was probably 2003. In the mid 2003, probably. Man: And why do they keep putting you in isolation? 'Cause-- - Basically, 'cause I would keep building up like a punishment basically. So I would have outstanding punishments. I think even now I've got about six months or three months of punishment left (chuckles). When I left. And I left through my isolation (chuckles). Man: Really? - (laughs) I've done a year and three months in isolation on and off. Man: How did you handle isolation? What did you do to handle it with confidence? - Well, to be honest, I never told them that, but isolation for me personally was better. Man: Why? - Because the noise in the other blocks and the AC, I forgot too about AC. It was hot outside and the AC was blowing in isolation. But they had like a double side to it as well because they would actually use the air conditioning in isolation for a punishment tool. Like the guards would do it. So basically like at the beginning, before Miller came, in isolation and I said, treatment was good, but like I said, don't take... For even when before Miller, it wasn't like perfect, there was like these mishaps. So I would have a cup full of water... (speaking in foreign language) I would have a cup full of water placed beside me in my isolation block. And at the time you would have the cups in isolation. And in the morning, I would wake up and the top layer of it will be iced. That's how cold that it would be in isolation. So, and then there was one time when an engineer came to service the air conditioning and he said, "This is below zero." He said that and I was beside, I was there and the what would you call it? Man: Thermostat? - Yeah, the thermostat was... And the controls were just like opposite me to the right and he came in, this black guy, and he came and he was looking at it and fixing it and then he said to the guards, "You know this is below zero, or something?" And then that's it. The guard didn't say nothing to him. I don't know what he did after and then that's it. Man: And how did it get worse when Miller came besides being put on you said the fourth level and there was bad as other, what else happened in sort of different when Miller came? - Basically they sent... There was guards, every nine months they will send new guards. And they would just cause havoc. You know, when they first came, they will be okay. But when Miller come he brung some guards with him. I think they were from New York or something 'cause everyone had a, it was nine one, nine one or something, no 9/11, or it was nine something patch. I can't remember when exactly, but it was nine something. And I think they might have been from New York. I wasn't really... I just stuck onto my head they might be because of 9/11, that's why there was that patch. It was nine, something patch. And I never ever put a two and two together. But anyway, basically, the patch, when it came they came with Miller, I think. Don't take my word for it, but I think they came with Miller. And when they came, they just caused havoc, basically throughout their stay. It was like, usually guards come, they change the shift. Then they will be okay, for the first month two months. Then they would be a bit bad, then they would be bad, then they would be bad. But these guards, they came and there was evil from the beginning to the end. And there was like, they was extreme in their behavior. So all these things I'm telling you about, would happen a lot more often and more. They'll cut the water off on you, off the whole block. When it's time to pray, they will hear you call for prayer and when you called for prayer, they'll cut the water off on the main, from the mains. So you wasn't able to make evolution in preparation for prayer. They will torment you, they will torment you basically and I mean, we would try and give back as much as well and it helped, it worked a lot. There was even guards that commit suicide in the camp which it's like, no one knows about it, you know? Man: How do you know that that happened? - They interrogated-- Man: That the guards committed suicide? - The interrogators told us. - Really? - Yeah and personally an interrogator told me of one incident of a guard who committed suicide. What happened was, he wasn't in with us, the guard. He was one of the guards on the towers (throat clearing). And basically, you know, this is what interrogator told us and it was confirmed through other guards and stuff, so we'd like covered it the story and we made sure it was correct. And... (speaking in foreign language) So basically what had happened is the guard, he told his wife, he was going to come back on the 25th of October. I think it was that exact date, 25th of October. But he actually went back on the 24th to surprise her. But when he found his wife, he went home to see his wife, he found his wife doing a full workout basically with the gym instructor, or something. So basically, he didn't... I think something happened between them, who knows what happened. Then he came back from leave. So when he was on the towers or something, it was Christmas time. It was when the earthquake happened in Iran. The big earthquake happened in Iran, was it, (mumbles)? Yeah, I think it was... (speaking in foreign language) Woman: Maybe Pakistan, 2006? Man: No, it was an earthquake in Iran. - Yeah, when I was in. Man: 2005, I think, yeah. - It was before, it was at least a big massive earthquake. It was roughly about that time. Man: So I think it was 05, yeah. - But I was released in four. I might have been in Iraq or something. I might have been willing to say that, no, I'm sorry, Saddam, sorry, I've got it wrong. I think there was two, it might have been two, when the Saddam thing happened. Man: Maybe it was in 04, or three in Iran. Woman: Mm-hmm (mumbles). - But basically at that time. It was either that time or the Saddam thing and this is when, it was around about, October time and then it hit December, sorry, yeah, it hit December. I reckon it's 2003, December. And then Christmas time hit. And then the guard, you know, he shot himself in the head. Man: At Guantanamo? - Yeah, he was in Guantanamo. Yeah, at Guantanamo. And basically I can only gather that, you know, he got, obviously, the Christmas feeling, and he started these visions of your partner, obviously. Man: Did you see men who in Guantanamo commit suicide or try to commit suicide? - There was one guy who I saw, he was... But this guy was like, we've heard about him being a spy, Bisididar or something. He was like, he was a fattish Saudi Arabian guy. And he actually, literally, I don't know if he was doing it for a joke or something, but he used to do it a lot. And he used to get like a sheet and the times, you know, hang himself up in the mesh. Tie a knot there and then put it around his neck and jump off and the guards would come. But if ever happened in a regular block it would be impossible for anyone to commit suicide because the guards would walk up and down every like five minutes, 10 minutes and if anyone commits suicide, if anyone done that, everyone would scream and shout and then they would come rushing. So he wouldn't be hanging longer than like 30 seconds. I mean, five guards on a block, it wouldn't happen. You know what I mean? It's not like you're in isolation, no one can see you. So that's when the three guys, they decided to commit suicide. I found that it was an Alpha block. Alpha block is overlooking the sea and it's like I said, it's an irregular block. It's open and everyone can see each other. So then how three guys they're gonna be hanging for ages and it was just watching them quietly? I mean, without making noise and no one's gonna come and take 'em down. I can't that happening. So that's why I was thinking that it could have been when the ERF went in and attacked. You know, when they attack the guys sometimes they just go too over the top. Like I said, jumping on you, slam in your head, kneeing you. I remember now, I lost consciousness once from the guards, the ERF attacking me. There was one time when I first got to Cuba, it was in 2009, 2002, sorry, mid 2002, late 2002. I was in isolation and there was... They had cameras. They were filming. We didn't know what it was, we thought the news or something but it hadn't come on the sides. And they were filming like all around and they were filming people, doing interviews and stuff. So something... That's it, I was standing, they came and they would do cell searches as well. They were searching people's cells. We don't know what they were doing this for. So, they came in and they were doing a totally different system. For the cameras, they wouldn't do what they usually do. They were acting like the more braver now because the cameras are there. So they wouldn't put you in your shackles and make you go on your knees and put you on the shackle like this. On your knees, put you on your shackles and then, you know? They would now use a different system and they would open the door. They would say, "Stand" and they would open the door and you'd be standing. And then they would say, "Face the wall." And you face the wall. And I had my hand this and the guard, he stuck his finger in the back of my ear like this and he was squeezing it, like he's pushing it. And it's a pressure point (coughs). And he's really, really pushed and until it was really painful. And he had his hand like here, so my natural reaction was to bite his finger. And so I bate his finger and then they slammed me to the floor and they jumped on me and I lost unconsciousness. And then I woke up and then I opened my eyes and I can see like a massive spotlight and loads of people around me. And then they was on my chest and I could feel my chest, but they were still sitting on me. Then how I gained consciousness and they're still sitting on me and my chest felt like caved in. So yeah, I remember that the incident and that was in isolation as well. Man: Do you know what year that was? That when that was? - That was 2002, like mid. Probably about, I remember now, probably about three months into my stay. Three, four months into my stay. Man: Did you get interrogated a lot while you were in Guantanamo? - Yeah, I can't put a number on it to be honest. A lot of times, maybe 50 times, or some like that. And I only stayed there for like two years, not like the other guys. Man: And did you ever get interrogated by the Brits as well as Latin Americans? - British will come every five months, they will come. Man: And would it be any different when the Brits came? - Not really, I would tell them... Exactly that stuff that I've told you, I would tell it to them and it'd be even more intense because it will be fresh in my mind. So when I would sit down, I would just like a robot, just telling them exactly what my concerns were. And I tell about the medical medical treatment. I've got a letter with my solicitor, stating that I was complaining about medical treatment and that I was refused medical treatment. And it's actually on file and when I came back, the British denied it. So we showed them the letter and then they admitted it and then they gave an explanation to it. So every time they will come, I will tell them like from A to Z, exactly what's happening in the block right now. I'll say, "Okay, now we're hunger striking." I wouldn't give them a chance to speak. I wouldn't really. I would just blabber on, I would just go on, I wouldn't give them a chance to to speak and say what they wanna say. I'll just use that time for me, basically. Man: Why did you refuse medical care? - I didn't. Man: Oh, you didn't? - No, sorry. I said basically that I've been refused medical care. - That you've been refused. - Yeah, so that was written down by the guy from the foreign office. He actually wrote it down and that letter was that we had that proof basically. But sorry, I have to say, they didn't write down every single thing I said but this happened just to get in there at this point. Man: And what kind of medical care were you asking for that you were refused? - For my arm, for my feet and I had troubles walking for like pains in my knees and stuff. Man: And who would refuse it? How would that happen? - They wouldn't take me to, what do you call them? Man: The clinic? - Yeah. Sorry, that was once if I remember the (mumbles). They came to take me to medical. They will come to the door and they said medical. Anyone who needed the medical, they wouldn't come and everyone who didn't need it, they would come. (glass knocking) (speaking in foreign language) (baby crying) (speaking in foreign language) Sh, sh, sh, sh, sh, sh. Man: So you were still not feeling well. - Yeah, so basically one day they came to to my block and I was outside of the regular blocks and they said, "Medical." And I said to them, "What for?" And they said, "We don't know, medical." And it's an old man and a young man. And I said the them, "I'm okay. "You know, I'm fine, thanks." And he said, "No, no, you have to go." "No, I'm fine." He said, "No, you have to go." And they know what's gonna happen. And some of them wanted to (mumbles) these people. So basically they said to come on, you know, and I'm not in a state to be attacked by these guys. And so basically I said to them, "I don't wanna, do I have to go?" And then I tried to argue and I did. So I thought okay, so I put my arm through, they put the cuffs on, I turned around, then they put it around my waist. This is all before I leave the cell, then they've got these hatches at the bottom, they opened them up, put shackles on my feet. So I'm shackled even before they even opened the door. Open the door, they start walking me and I got these slippers, the ones that you put, you know, there's two toes at the end they're supposed to be holding them. So I'm wearing those. Can you imagine? Like I'm missing my big toe. So and my feet are very like... I haven't got my sensation. If he was to stick just a pencil on my foot, it'd be like a needle pricking me. Of a needle would like... I haven't got the sensation of the soles of my feet. So here I am walking on gravel, like stones, loads of fixed stones. I don't know if you've ever been there, you've seen it. Man: I have. - You've seen the area it's loads of fixed stones and I'm walking and I'm literally pushing my like sensing my left slipper across the ground. I try to keep it moving. And I have to walk slow. So, basically it falls off. My slipper falls off and what do they do? They slam me to the floor and they jump on me and they literally twist my arm behind my back and my legs they twist 'em up. And then I remember the post man walking past, Black postman, he used to come and give the letters, like he wrote my postcard home. And I remember him looking at me and at me like this, then he just walked on. And I remember that, I remember that. I literally thought to myself, you know, I thought, you couldn't even say anything, you know I mean? It's, I was thinking, you know there's gonna be a day is the tables are gonna be turned. You know, it's just exactly what I what I just thought. 'Cause I got to that stage when I just thought, you know what? What's gonna happen is gonna happen, you know? God doesn't burden the soul of more than it can handle. So what was gonna happen is gonna happen. So anyway, basically, they came with the stretcher with wheels on it. They put me on it and then he pushed me to, on my stomach, with my hand behind my back and my legs behind my back. They pushed me to them, to the medic, to the doctor. And then they put me against the wall and then they left me there. And then they waited for my turn. When a doctor called me, they pushed, they rolled me over to the doctor and doctor put his arm on my nerves and pushed into it, "Does this hurt?" And I said, "Yes." And he said, "Okay." And then he me push me away. And I said, "Wait, doctor, doctor." I said, "Is that all?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "Could I have refused medical?" He said, "Yeah." In their face, right in there in front of your face. I said, "Could I ever refused?" I think he said, "Yeah, you could have." You know what I mean? And then that's, it pushed me. And then they took me to isolation and they threw me into isolation. And that's it, they closed the door and I had nothing in isolation. but for my experience before, I was literally, my morale was like high, because I was thinking this is just another day. It's just, it's not, do you know what I mean? It's another... It's just amazing, do you know what I mean? Like, I wasn't in pain. I was pain, I mean, it wasn't stressful, I mean, but I was handling it because it's happened so many times. It's like, I called it Palestine, as well. This is Palestine. So literally we've got stones and they've got missiles. They treat us how Cuba was. You don't have to spit at them but that's all you can do it through the mesh. And even got to the extent when they started to put plastic up and then you couldn't spit at them. Man: Did you ever see a dentist while you were in Guantanamo? - Good question. Yeah, I kept asking for a dentist and finally they took me to a dentist. My tooth, which I haven't got anymore it broke at the inside, the filling came out. So yeah, the filling came out. So they took me to a dentist and actually after about three or four months, I kept using tissue and I putting it inside the hole, just trying to like, hold up. So they finally got my dentist called. They took me to the dentist and then they basically, they put up temporary filling there and that's it. It's like a white, temporary filling. And then they left and then they sent me back. Then, like after... Yeah and that's it. They never took me back and then I was released. And when I was released, about two or three weeks after released, it came out. Man: And why did it take so long for you to first see the dentist in the first time? - 'Cause everything went through interrogation. If interrogation didn't want it and then it wouldn't happen. So, I mean, so I mentioned like my filling, the filling was in and then two weeks after I got released, the filling came out. So imagine I was still in prison at that time and the feeling came out. The pain that I went through, it was amazing. The pain I went through, like, you know how it feels. And so basically I was just thinking, that was his mercy from God, 'cause if I was inside and my filling came out they're not gonna see me. I mean, I'll be screaming my head off and nothing's gonna happen. So, I mean, (throat clearing)-- Man: So the interrogators determined whether you could see the dentist, is that what you're saying? - Exactly. I developed a rash when I was in the... How it started, I was in isolation and every week there was bringing the change of clothes. And I was in isolation, so I wasn't able to keep my same clothes. 'Cause usually you keep the same clothes ' cause, you know, the fit that you get you for, I'm not gonna get it again, they're gonna give me a different size, so I'll keep the same as I wash it myself. Isolation, you can't do that. If you really need a change of clothes and it's dirty, you can't do that because there's no sun for it to dry. So you have to change your clothes. So I changed my clothes, I put them on and then I started itching. And they stunk basically of this industrial-type detergent, like this really strong kind of stuff they use. I started scratching and they will actually blow using hot air coming from the AC now, not cold, hot air. And so I developed this rush and I've got it to this date (coughs). And I've been diagnosed with it, this is something called, it stands for the ability to write on skin. That's the main word for it, but I can't remember the short term they give it. But it's the ability to write on skin. If you type it into Google Images, you come up with people writing on their skin. Like just people doing this. Man: You mean like scratches on your skin? - No, it's not. It's like, if I was to just do any marker like this, it will come up on my skin. Like it would actually can write, you can write your marker, write my name on and it will just come up. And that's what it is and that's where I got it. And I've still got it to this day. They used to give me hydrocortisone cream for it, which is a steroid and it's not for that. I wasn't... And I had it all over my body and they never took me in to diagnose it. They would just give me different creams, some of the hydrocortisone, sometimes they would give me some different kinds of cream and they never, ever tried to take me to a specialist, to a doctor to sit me down, to see what this rash was. And until I got out and I was diagnosed with it. Woman: Time to switch cards. Man: Okay. I won't take much longer then 'cause I think it's... - Okay, so as soon as I send this reply. Woman: All right. (phone keys typing) - Oh, sorry. Man: That's okay. Did a psychologist ever come to see you? Did they ever send a psychologist to you? - Yeah, they had them going around. They called him, psych doctor. That would be the famous word. Even though he didn't speak English, they know that psych, psych. They learn that word. But I didn't... They couldn't really 'cause, like... Yeah, they walk around, so yeah, they would ask, "You want psych? "You want psych? "You want psych?" Yeah, that's what it is. So, yeah, they would offer it, but they can't, obviously they can't force. And I think that's something that they knew they weren't meant to force. Let's see, yeah, they would ask. Man: Did you say, you went on hunger strikes, so you were force fed? Did you ever have-- - No, I mean, I wasn't able to reach, like, last as long as those guys... I mean, I think the longest I've done was about three days and after that I was just gone. Yeah, so... Man: Did the Red Cross ever represent you in Guantanamo? - Yeah, they came. They wasn't very helpful, I mean, I don't think they didn't really do much for us, I don't think. Man: I don't have too many more questions. Is this something you want to? Right before we go into (mumbles). You met with some lawyers right? Before you left Guantanamo? - Before I left, when the-- Woman: Sorry. - I left when what's he called? What's his name? Salem, Osama Bin Laden's driver, his name's Salem Hamdan. Man: Yeah, Hamdan. - Yeah, I was opposite him in an isolation. And then he was the first one who got a lawyer. Lawyer, came for him. And he come back from interrogation with his lawyer. And he told everyone in the news, he said, you know, "The lawyer is asking me "to be a witness against these people, "certain people in America." And I wanted to start laughing, because that's not what a lawyer does, a lawyer is there to defend you and stuff. So I remember that. And then laughing immediately after Hamdan left. Man: So, do you think he really saw a lawyer? - Yeah, he did, yeah. I think they tried a little game with him, I think I'm sure they must have. Man: But you never saw a lawyer there. - No, I never. Man: Could you describe how it was that you left? How did that happen? - Just one question - Before you do that? - For sure, take it, yeah. Woman: You talked about your friend Ahmed. I was wondering, were there certain core people who are oftentimes resisting or leading and organizing on the blocks? - Yeah, I wouldn't say, yeah. Heard the influence, yeah, they called him, Ahmed, they called him, interrogators, I think, it must've been interrogators, they called him the General, because of his tactics. Basically his way is the way he come across. But he wasn't really, it was just the way he spoke. But really a lot of people didn't really wanna listen to him. Some people didn't really wanna want to listen, some people did. So he wasn't that influential as they thought, but they called him the General and they put him on that. And they framed him. I was in isolation and he came back from interrogation and then I asked him like, "What did they say?" He was on the other side of the block, remember? And he said, "He's one of ages." And I said, "What did they say?" And he said he didn't wanna say. So I screamed I said (mumbles) tell me what they said and I shouted at him, I got angry of him. So then I forced him to say then he said, "Okay, they said..." They trying to be wise, you know, I didn't want to like get everyone worried and stuff. But he said, they said, like about five or six people sat with him in interrogation and they said, "So listen..." They said they framed him and said, "Listen, get out of the spotlight." "And otherwise we're gonna either "I sort of like for you to see," Or something like that. They really, really frightened him. They must have, they really, really... And he told me this but I forgot totally, exactly what they said to him. And then after this he never did. But they said, "Get out of the spotlight, "otherwise, blah, blah, blah, blah." But, and then basically, so we continue to do what he does. And it was nothing big. It wasn't like for example, someone would come to the Isolation block and they wouldn't have like a blanket, you know? And a mat with them and the AC would be blowing and he would be like on metal with nothing. So he would say and then call for the guards. Saying, "Guards, can you pick a number, five or something? "Hasn't got his blanket and Matt, can you get it for him?" And they wouldn't get it. So he would say, "Brothers, you know, your brother "in number five hasn't got a blanket and a mat. "Can you, you know, I mean, "it's not fair that we've got blanket, mats and he hasn't. "Everyone throw theirs outside. "When they come give the food "and they open the hatchets, throw yours outside." So everyone will do that. And then they will bring his blanket and give it to him. So that's what he would do, you know what I mean? He wouldn't... (baby mumbling) Yeah, so stuff like that. So it wouldn't be like, I mean, what can you do? What can you organize there? Do you know what I mean? Apart from a hunger strike. Man: Were there any guards who are nice to you? Who did something special to you? - Yeah, that's a good question. That's a good question because there was like, I would say maybe 5% of the guards were okay and the rest weren't. So what we would do, everyone would know and a lot of people would say. That 'cause say, you know there will be people always saying, you know, the good guards, be okay with them the evil ones, you know, do as you please. And won't say, you never know, they could become Muslim one day and that could (mumbles) and you never know what's coming ahead. So you'd think to yourself, become Muslim? Are you for real. But because that's how Islam is. It's like, you know what I mean? Obviously you defend yourself, you sign up of your rights, but at the same time, you have to have this soft humble kind of attitude with people of peace. And I have to obviously have to associate with people who want trouble. So this is Islam basically. And so basically, you know, and it happened exactly, it happened. I say, "Maybe now it makes sense." So yeah, and basically we will be nice to the nice guards and bad to the bad guards. And that's it basically. I mean, as much as they were tormenting us, we were trying to torment them, 'cause otherwise-- Man: And what would nice guards do? How, like-- - There'll be guards, for example, what they will do, like, for example, what I've done for me, these guards, they open the door for me literally. And I walked out like this. And they asked me, "What block or "what cell do you wanna go into? "What friend do you wanna meet?" So I'll pick like a certain person and then they open the doors for me and I walked and they opened the door for him. And I walked in and sat with him and we sat next to each other and we were speaking and it was just amazing. And then, but that was like I said, like even probably less than 5% and that was something unusual. And it would happen to a lot of the guys and a lot of the prisoners. And that was the one of the amazing things, that sometimes they would probably give you extra food or something. But if they ever found out, then that could have been, you know I mean? But I mean, they saw and these are Black guards as well. They saw and I would talk to the Black guards a lot and I would say to them, "Can't you relate?" "Can't you relate to what we're going through?" It was only 50 years ago that your granddad or something was being burnt to the steak and they were caught in snare traps and sent to... I actually learnt this history from Cuba, from the guards. Actually I kept asking interrogators and stuff and they were telling me all this stuff that they'd done. How it history... How the Black people came about. And I start to use this on the Black guards. And such to make them understand basically, like, can you not see? And here you are, wearing an American flag on your shoulder and oppressing, you know? And some of them will actually just stay quiet and listen or they would actually think about it. So yeah, we would preach, we would. Yeah and I think maybe that's why they done that, maybe 'cause they could relate. And you know... Man: So how was it when you heard about that you were gonna go home, since you said you were in isolation? How did that whole thing happen? - Yeah, okay, going home, I was in isolation and there's a story behind that if you want having a story that-- Man: Yeah, I'd like to. - Basically, a year-and-a-half previous to that, I was beside in isolation again, and a guy next door, 'cause guard said you can't talk to the guy next door 'cause it's metal, but there's holes in between so you're able to speak to the guy next door. So he taught me a supplication. He said, "If you say it, a lot really "is supplication of distress." You say it... (door clicking open) (speaking in foreign language) He said basically, "If you say it..." You know, he said, "There's a story to the sheikh." He said this supplication, he was in prison. And three days after he said the supplication, he was released from prison. So he taught me. I said, "Okay, teach me." So he taught me it and I learned it and then I forgot it. And then a year-and-a-half later, I was beside him in isolation again, as I said, "Remember supplication you told me before, "what is it?" So he taught me it again. So I said it and it wasn't even days. Then, they brung (mumbles). And when I talked to the guys, they brung him into isolation for a day only, just to tell me the news. And he told me that the Red Cross came and said that five people are gonna be released. But they didn't say who. So he gave me the news and then they took him back to his cell. Then it was after two weeks, basically, that's when they started the process. They took me to interrogation and he started fit me up for these dodgy clothes. Like this jean clothes. like to see if they fit and shoes and blah, blah, blah. And I felt we just wanted them acts, they always do. They used to put people on the bus and say, "You going home." And say, "Okay, now we've got a couple of more questions." And they'll bring them back and say, "No, no you was lying." So they always used to say, "You're gonna go home, just answer these questions." So when they've done to to me-- (baby crying) (speaking in foreign language) (lips smacking) (speaking in foreign language) (distant crowd chattering) (speaking in foreign language) Woman: We're gonna go upstairs. You wanna go upstairs with us? Man: I got you a toy, you wanna see it? (speaking in foreign language) Man: Are we filming? Woman: Not really. - What was I saying? Man: That you were two weeks in isolation and they were making you wear these new clothes. - So just, they start to fit me up for these clothes that I'll be wearing to go home. And they said to me, "Just got some last questions "we need to ask you." And this and that. And I was like, "Okay, okay." I was like literally with my whole heart, I did not believe that I would be going home. And they-- (hands clapping) (speaking in foreign language) - So, I mean, I'll never, ever believe that. They dressed me in their clothes and they put the shoes on me and everything. And it tried to make it seem like I'm gonna go home and I just literally not believe it. They even brung in a guy and said to him that you can say goodbye to him tonight. He's one of the (mumbles) guys. He said, "Say goodbye to him "and 'cause you know, I mean, you're leaving." I was like, "I certainly don't believe them. "And this is a bunch of lies." And I mean, literally I did not believe it. And it was true though. But after a little while it took us to isolation they put all five of us in isolation in India Block and they set up these tents outside. (door clicking open) And the first tent had-- (baby laughing) (speaking in foreign language) So they put us in isolation in the block, five of us. The first five British that were released and they set up these three tents on the gravel or outside. And the first tent was the Red Cross, the second tent was the Americans and the third wasn't a tent, really, just the seating area, it was for the British when they came. And so I was the last one to be taken out. One was taken out, four guys came back and then they all came back with the same story. The Red Cross... I mean, sorry, the American said we're not going home 'cause we didn't sign a piece of paper. So when I went out, I had all this information in my head. So I asked the Red Cross. He sat with me, said to me, "Are you're happy "to go back to England." "You're gonna be set back," blah, blah. He said, "Do you fear for your safety?" Blah blah. So I said to him, "No, I'm okay to go back. "And you know, I don't fear." And then he really didn't say nothing. He didn't want to offer any information. I said, "So what's gonna happen?" As he didn't really wanna say. So I said to him, "Is it true that if I don't... "There's a piece of paper that they're gonna ask me to sign. "And if I don't sign it, I won't go home. "Is that true?" And then he's like, "No, it's not true." He wasn't really forthcoming. He could have said no and that's a lot of rubbish and that's not true and don't worry. But he was like really hesitant and didn't really wanna even say no. So I went to the next tent and they had a video camera and they had the digital camera and it was a lady sitting there and I had to sit in front of her and she read from the paper and it said something like, "You was caught the battlefield. "You're Al-Qaeda and Taliban and you will never fight, "promise you never go back to fight against," or something. "To America, or something, again." And so basically, and they said they gave me a piece of paper, "Here, sign." So I said to him, "I'm not gonna sign that." (mumbles) what's it to them. So why should I sign that? That's not true. And then they just stood there, like, and then that's it. That was their last effort, that was a little prank, last little prank they could try and pull. And then I was taken back and then night time we came out and then the British Officials were there and they said, "Okay, we're gonna take you back. "And the plane is gonna come, "it's gonna put you on" and blah, blah. So he talked us through it and they went back. And then the next morning, and then some of us said, "Okay, let's do in a sheet is our songs, "Islamic song, poetry and stuff." I said, "Let's do like poetry." So they done it. They done like, you know, like it's a go away party, going away party, you know, you're getting set free. So everyone on the block is like really happy and you're like singing and (mumbles) and like giving advice. When you go out, make sure you guys are together and you speak together and you tell them what's happening. And then we didn't get released that day, that night. Then the next night, okay, they're gonna go this night. And then we started doing these poetry songs and we didn't get released. And then the third night, we've done the same thing again and they're happy as if they're gonna leave. It's amazing that it happened. I was really sad, I was really like sad 'cause I was leaving them behind. And then that night, we didn't leave. Yeah, that night. We left after that night, actually in the morning. And there was cameras, it was amazing, cameras with heavy lighting on it. And there was loads of guards. And the guards never knew. And it was certain guys that, you know, I had built up a relationship with, like a hate relationship. Like they were evil. And when I was leaving and I was like, "In your face." I was like that. As the cameras were there, I didn't wanna really say anything too much. So I was just like, "In your face." And I didn't wanna... Sh, sh, sh, sh. (speaking in foreign language) So, I was basically indirectly saying it. Like I said it very softly in that, but he knew I was looking at him and looked at him and I said, "In your face." And then I just calmly walked off. Like I was happy as I didn't want to show them that. And then they walked me to a school bus, with cardboarded out windows. It was cardboard in all the windows, so you couldn't see out. And then two guards on either side. And basically everyone was put... You know, everyone had two guards to them on the bus at the back and then we were taken. And we wasn't able to see, obviously this time going out. But at the same, but we could the same thing, we could feel going over water and onto the land that we came to, like an air base. And then when we got off the bus it was like pretty amazing sight, actually. It was a massive, like, it was one of the planes that lifts the tanks. And it was like far, like 100 meters or something away. Like literally, like 100 meters away. And there was American guards like at a walk through like two lines of American guards on either side left or right. And behind them were British Army guys behind left and right. I take a long walk up to the plane. And then they took the cuffs off me and then I was able to walk without the cuffs up the ramp and I sat down. And that was my-- Man: So, on the plane you weren't handcuffed? - No, I wasn't handcuffed at all. (speaking in foreign language) Man: And when you landed in Britain, what happened? - When I landed in Britain, they're very diplomatic in Britain. They will never, you know, they say the British, they they dig a hole, or dig a hole with a needle and empty a fish tank or something with a spoon or something like that. They're very, very diplomatic. And even on the plane, I could tell, I can see you could see straight from somewhere, you just know that this guy doesn't like me, just is, you know, he only just acted. So they gave us Kit Kat chocolates on the plane. And they were actually normal police officers. I know what all police officers are like, you know I mean? 'Cause you never ever get them... It's rare that you get, that not racist is rare. So let alone prejudice. So, basically they took me to the police station and they took my fingerprints nine times. On the one arm for nine times, they took it. And the first time he was like taking my fingerprints and then he said, "Oh, do it again." And they took my fingerprints. And then I think the third time, I've got it, I've got the picture that this guy's taken of me. So I said to him... So he done it in the fourth time and says, "No, no, no, you missed it." And like do it again and I kept binding him up. So I was as diplomatic as they were. And then when I was in interrogation, they was asking me these questions. I told them to ask any questions. And then they came to me, said to me, "Okay, can you please sign the fingerprints?" And I was like, "Okay, for the record, "let me just count how many." And accounted one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. Okay, so I kept signed one by one. Amazing, amazing, you know what I mean? They actually let me sign all of them. If I ever asked, if I ever made a complaint or something do you know what I mean? And then they took my pictures, they really took my pictures and they really, really took my pictures. They're like, "No, we have to 'cause it's..." And my lawyer said, "No, they have to." You know it was intimidating. They said, "Okay, cover your arm, cover your feet. "And then your legs and this and that." And they took ages to get, took a million pictures. And it was obviously like for a wind up as well. So that was that room. So, basic that they was like, if you never ever knew what they were doing, but they would slight tricks, then you would have thought like that was excellent treatment, five star. Yeah, because do you know what I mean? Man: And then you were released. - And yeah, then I was put into a car, into a van. And it was this Mercedes. and we had to put our heads down. And there were massive flashes were going off in there. And then we went to another police station, then from there, we jumped into a normal car set up normally. And then we drove to my lawyer's office. Man: Did you know you had a lawyer while you were in Guantanamo? - That's a good one. That's a good one because my brother wrote me a letter and he wrote, and it was censored. It was censored, I looked at the letter and he was censored and I was thinking, oh my gosh a hell of a trick that if you get like this kind of like the level ones they had this perfume like some sort of a perfume, like a small kind of bottle. And if you rubbed that on the area, which is a phased out - Blacked out. - And put up to the light, you get to see what's on it. - Really? - So, yeah, so I was like, "Okay, let me try it." So I done it, I got this perfume. I thought, how do I got it? It was from online and I happened to get my hands on some and then I put some on there and I put it up to the light and I read. And my brother said that he opened up a business, a new business, a new shop. 'Cause it's a sign where they advertise the same letter. He opened up a new shop in a certain place and that's it. And then he said, "We got you a lawyer," and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, okay. And then afterwards I destroyed that letter. So they couldn't... They didn't know that I had that information. So, I left it and I never ever told them. And then when I got released, while I was in a police station here, they said to me, what's it called? Do you want a lawyer? They asked me for a lawyer. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, I've got a lawyer. And they actually tried to get me one of their lawyers. I said, "No, I've got a lawyer." And she was actually waiting for hours. She was angry, 'cause she wanted me to speak to her. She was waiting for hours and hours. Yeah, she was actually furious actually, because she's like, she's quite old as well. She's just like really, really angry. How long she was waiting for. So they've really-- Man: Which date did you get that letter that you were able to figure out you have a lawyer? - I can't remember. Probably 2003, mid 2003, probably late 2003, yeah. Man: I never-- - Or mid 2003, yeah. Man: And who had this perfume? Who was able to carry this perfume? - I don't know, I don't know how I got it. Got my hands on it. But sometimes you get these guards, who'd wait until their shift comes. It's prison ain't it? Like you always get these these opportunities and stuff, and you asked them, you know, ask them you want something from far away or something impossible, one of the guards can get it. And even though he's only smuggled out letters he knows I've actually written letters. Man: How did he smuggle them out? - He gave them to guards and they went and posted them for him. - Really? - Yeah. - And this like already when he was inside, it was absolutely amazing. This letter, I think I couldn't even read it 'cause the English was so perfect. I didn't understand what he was saying, but he was demanding for his rights and stuff and was an actually excellent letter. And it go out before. Yeah, he actually gave it to a guard and he posted it. Man: And You saw (mumbles) while you were in Guantanamo? - I saw (mumbles), no, I didn't see him I Guantanamo, I saw him when I was in Kandahar. So I'm once, but yeah, he wasn't Echo'd up throughout his whole stay in Guantanamo apart from his last month, or something (sniffles). Man: Did you attitude change about America from the time you've before you were captured, to, you know, when you were released? Did you have a different opinion of America? - Yeah, definitely. The opinion before was like, I was brainwashed before, basically. Because before, obviously, I've grown up watching all the movies. I mean, there's not one movie. I mean, it's like, you know, so I lived in America when it comes to all the films and stuff. There's nothing here that I would have saw. "Dukes of Hazzard" when I was young, you know? "The A-Team," "Incredible Hulk," all that, that was my... When I was young, I was growing up watching all that. So, I never ever thought anything bad about America. If anything, whoever watches the movies and stuff, when they're young, they wanna go to America. But it was amazing when, was it called? After my incarceration and I really understood. And afterwards I'll start learning the history, I started understanding where America came from. And a lot of things, a lot of things. And even like a lot of things, there's so much, so many things that propaganda then you think, that's like from landing on the moon. When I was young, I believe that landed on the moon. I hope you don't. I hope you don't believe that (chuckles). Man: You don't believe that now? - No, definitely, with my whole heart, I did not believe that. And I started to Google recently and it's just like, it's been disproved. And even back then, the Chinese and Russians disproved it. Five points they found or more, I think, in that descent, doesn't move or something like that. You know what I mean? It was like stupid. I mean, the sun or something. It was definitely a fake, do you believe it? Man: Well, they say the young people don't believe it and the older people do. So from America as well, - No. Man: They say. - No you can't. 'Cause I mean, I actually mixed it. I mean, two years, over two-and-a-half years in American custody, the guards, the mentality and stuff, a lot of them hated being there. They didn't wanna be there. They actually spoke against Bush. They were scared they were gonna be sent to Iraq. So you actually got like negative stuff even coming from the guards. And even like, they fought. There's a guard that actually asked the question, he asked me to translate for him, to Yemeni guy, I said, "Ask him they got nail clippers in Yemen." Man: Ask him what? - Ask the Yemeni prisoner, if they've got nail clippers in Yemen. Do you know what I mean? And it's true, I mean, it's true. I mean, I'm not saying all Americans are like that, but generally this is how it is. It's like, you can fall for it. Like, can you imagine, if you sit down for I think five minutes about landing on the moon, do you know how much petrol you're gonna need to get to the moon? And what kind of power you need to get back from there? (Tarek laughs) It's like just thinking of it, it is like the moon, the moon (laughs). Man: I have tell you, I do believe. - No, you can't, you can't. I mean, 'cause there's even a guy that done help do the video and they said they've done it in Nevada desert. And it's just, this type of interview, you're gonna get all these proper documentaries refuting in the facts. And I just thinking about it's like, you know what? I didn't even need to watch the documentary to know this. I could have worked it out myself, I'm telling you man. And like, for example, like the satellites. There is satellites in space. I mean, we're not trying to deny all of that but there is satellite space. There is rockets that go up, you know, but the thing is, it gets to an extent, like for example, one thing that I had when I was first in American custody, all the movies start flashing through my head. And every single, just every single movie I watched, started flashing through my head. And I actually thought they were gonna cut me open and put a bug inside me, literally, because of the movies and stuff. So this movie stuff, it does have an effect on people and they know it, they know what they're doing. For example "Enemy of the State" by Will Smith. Before I was went away, I saw this film. And after watching it, I went to the toilet and literally I was looking in the corners of my own house and I figured there was a camera watching me. 'Cause it was, do you know what I mean? It's like you're being watched and this and that. And this is what it is, this is what it's like a brainwashing thing. And you actually think that they're the power. That's why they said they went to the moon because they were racing for superpower with Russia. And if they've been to the moon and they fake it and then basically, psychologically, the whole world knows that America is powerful. Do you know what I mean? It's like this kind of thing. So this is what it's about. So you've gotta be careful and it's sometimes you just, if you don't break out of it you're just not gonna see the truth. And there's a higher being, I mean, our eyes, our hands, who created us. Isn't that amazing? If I was to bring this bottle here and in court they asked me, they said to me, you know "Where did you get this bottle from?" And I said, "It's just from nowhere." No court is gonna say to me, is gonna believe me. So why in the world in its whole creation and people will say, "Just come out of nowhere." You can't use that excuse. You have to say... You have to use, you have to... There's not evidence to say, "Come from nowhere." Do you know what I mean? There's not evidence for me to say that came from nowhere, I have to prove it. So basically the world, who created the world? This is it. Who created the (mumbles) in its place? No one's gonna say... And if you debate this in court, impossible that you're gonna win. You're gonna say, "There must be a creator." Another discovered in a cell. I don't know there's a DVD, in the actual cells there's a machine that works like a motor, that moves like a motor and they say it's impossible. And they destroy Darwin's theory of evolution. They demolish it, like he has no leg to stand on. Even Darwin says, "If something happens, "or if it's fairly common proven "and it's scientifically proven, "then all my theories, all my work has gone." And that film was disapproved. And do you want me to say, "Hey, we are looking at American." I'm thinking, a mobile phone, a text message or email, wow, from one side oof the earth to the other. But look at the eye and the way it focuses and the way, do you know what I mean? That's more amazing to me. Do you know what I mean? And whoever done that is more powerful. So here I am, you know, being a Muslim and that's what the Americans done that to me. They actually taught me this. Which before I had no faith. I didn't use to pray before, I wasn't really religious. And as soon as I was in American custody how I am learning my religion. So really, you know, no, thanks to them, but they did really teach me. - Well, one of the questions I was gonna ask you is there something positive that came out of Guantanamo and you kind of just answered that, right? When you said that now you're a man of religion, before you weren't. Is that... Would you say that, or is there something else that you would say, and then also is there something negative that impacted your life that changed your life from being in Guantanamo? - Basically it's taught me how life is. I'm confident, I know basically where I'm going in my life. I constructed myself. Before I was just like, nobody, or stupid. I used to follow, used to just believe what I hear. So it's nice to break out that. I mean, mentally, you know, I think I've balanced that now. When I first came out, it affected me a bit. I always had nightmares, flashbacks, especially when I saw the news, I would really like... And it would enrage me and especially with the lies. Do you know what I mean? It's like, you know, I was there, I know what happened and here they are just lying. It just confirmed my feeling like, they're a bunch of liars. The media, just liars. And if the media lies, therefore it's bad. And if it's bad, therefore it's evil. And then, you know, I mean, and this is it. So basically I'm just more confident, and I believe that's why I believe more, 'cause the more life carries on, the more, what's it called? The more I believe. And that's it, what I mean, so in a way it's balanced, you know? I went for a bad experience, which in a way I wish I didn't go through, but in another way, you know, I've learned something and I've learned something, which is very, very... I mean, you can't get better than mental health. I mean, like being like physically fit and I feel physically fit. I mean, mentally, sorry. So you edit that (chuckles). I'm mentally fit. Yeah and it's buzz, it's a nice.. Man: I have one more question about this (mumbles) is there something I left out, that we left out, that you kind of want to address, before we end the interview? Just generally, if there's some thought that maybe there's a question I didn't ask that you want to talk about or (mumbles)? - I think so. I think just probably about, I think this this film probably needs to be, like, speeded up maybe. It's a good contribution and I'm grateful to help you take part in it. I hope it... 'Cause I mean, like, it could be easily done by Obama just saying, you know, just close it. But with all this, beyond the Obama. So be nice and this is how we have to work. I mean, this is how it has to be done. So I appreciate you, I mean, you doing this, 'cause it is gonna help the guys there. Man: Well, we really thank you for that. Woman: Thank you so much. - Cool.