Interviewer: Eily, thank you so much for being interviewed. If I could just get some background, if you could say and maybe spell your name? Eily: Okay, it's Eily, E-I-L-Y. My real name is Elizabeth - Oh! - Marlow, M-A-R-L-O-W. - Okay, thank you. And are you lay or clergy? - Clergy. - And your denominational affiliation? - Is Presbyterian. - Great, thank you. When and where were you born, Eily? - I was born in Waukesha, Wisconsin. - Okay. - March 18, 1975. - Okay, great. And where did you go to graduate or divinity school? - McCormick Theological Center in Chicago. - Okay, great. And what work or ministry were you doing at the time of Reimagining? - The first Reimagining, I was a college student at Macalester. - That was in '96? - Uh-huh. - Yeah. - Yeah. - The first one you spoke at or the? - Well, I'm thinking of the one that. I spoke in '97. That was the one after. '96 was the first one, right? - '93 was the first one. - Oh, '93! - Yes, yes. - So I was a college student then, too. - Okay (laughs), okay, good, good. And then in 2003, what kind of work were you doing? - I was a chaplain here at Macalester, the Associate Chaplain. - Great. And could you say a little bit about the work you're doing now? Which is very exciting, by the way. - Oh, thank you. So right now, I am the Program Associate for vocation reflection at Macalester College, so working with students on asking bigger questions of meaning and purpose in their life and doing everything from looking at ethics in the professional life to doing vocational discernment and looking at kind of civic leadership and helping students understand their responsibility to the world. - Fantastic, that's great. And do you remember when and how you got interested in feminist theology? - Yeah. So for me, it was, I mean, if I think about, I was exposed to feminism before I was a post of feminist theology, and I came to Macalester as a Presbyterian and actually had it in Biblical verses in my application! (interviewer laughs) But when I got here, I realized I was not going to be able to be Christian. That was not, that was not going to be a way of being in this new context. And so I really kind of put that piece of myself aside and Macalester held a lot of my values already, my social, political, and the value of service to society and so it kind of worked in some ways because I was still living out of faith but didn't see I could be feminist and Christian and this place didn't give me, at first, a possible path for that. And so I guess it was two, I mean, it was really two pieces. First it was in the classrooms. Tony Pen was now at Rice University, was here and taught black liberation theology, Latin-American liberation theology and feminist. He did a little bit on feminist theology and he has our papers. He had us write our own theology. - Wow. - I mean, he, you know, was just so empowering as a 20-year-old to kind of write our beliefs and so that was, I think, one piece. And then I started getting involved in the chaplaincy here and Lucy Forester Smith was a Chaplain and she was a feminist and she introduced me to the National Network Presbyterian college women and then I think she was the one who invited me to speak at Reimagining. - Oh! - Initially. And when I was exposed to Reimagining and I got to experience all of these people I was reading in the classroom, seeing that this was not just, these weren't just academic ideas, but these are ways of living a spiritual life and it was just, that conference just totally, it was just such a transition for me. - Wow. - Because I was, I had, I just lost my thought. Yeah, I remember with Tony, my senior year I was doing, Reimagining was when? - '93 was the first one and you spoke at '96. - So it was in the summer of '96? - I don't remember what month it was, I'm sorry. - I think it was. - Yeah. - So that next year then, I went and did an independent study with him on queer liberation theology. This was before that was even written. Now there's tons of written, but back in the '90s. - Wow! - And I went to Spirit of the Lakes Church and was researching whether you could live, you know, if worship could hold this theology in a meaningful way. So it was my capstone. I mean, it was my capstone. I looked at this too in terms of communication studies, in terms of preaching and liberation theology and my religious studies Masters, looking at too, queer liberation theology and whether liberation theology could be lived in worship. So really at the end, became a. And then I started coming out as a Christian on campus. I remember I got interviewed (interviewer laughs) for the house for today, and I would let them publish it, but I said feminist Christian before every time they said I was a Christian because I was so nervous. - Wow. - For my parents to, it was just a big transition, but a really liberating one, too. - And what kind of reaction did you get as a feminist Christian on campus? - Well, I found a lot of other feminist Christians and mostly, we started women's theology, women's, after, I mean, this was too, I think, inspired. I don't know if this was inspired by Reimagining, but my involvement certainly was, we started a women's spirituality group called Threads on Campus and it was women who were pagan, and Christian, and Jewish, and I think too, that was, yeah. So I found my people within that year. So I had kind of in some ways two sets of friends, then. The people who understood this piece of me. - You talked about that group in your presentation in '96. - Oh, I did! - You did, yes! About Thread, yes (laughs). - Okay, yeah. - Yes. - I don't know what, - Yes. - What came first. - Yes, yeah. That's amazing, that's really interesting. So you think it was probably the chaplain who got you involved? - Yes, uh-huh. - You went to the '93? The very first one? - I did no. - Oh, okay. - She got me involved just by speaking. They probably had asked her to get a college student to speak - Yes. And then I was that college student (laughs). - Okay (laughs). - I spoke, but then I got to go to the whole conference. - Wow. - And that was such a gift. - What do you? It's been a while, I know. - Yeah. - But other moments stand out? What do you remember from it? - I remember letting Russell, I think she spoke, right? - Mm-hmm. - Oh, and I remember, wasn't there the art that was being produced while the conference was going? The intentionality, that things could be done. I don't think I really come from a culture of retreats. I mean, now I lead retreats and I go to retreats, but I don't think I've ever that in of itself, that something could be so beautifully and thoughtfully done in academics and kind of your spiritual life could be nurtured in tandem and I remember they had paper on the tables for you to color and to. I mean, the whole, yeah, it wasn't just this radical theology that was liberating, really liberating my spirit to kind of claim kind of a new relationship with God, which was happening. And it wasn't just my academic self being nurtured, it was the space that was created, I think, too. I've been nurtured by people before, but I don't think I had ever been nurtured by a space so completely, and I think that was so different. - Yeah. Wow. Do you remember, and I know it's been a while, what that experience was like for you in giving your presentation? You were part of a group of people. - Yeah, I don't have tons of. I remember walking out, but I remember it. It was sharing, maybe, the story of becoming Christian on campus. Yeah. I have to say, I dislike like public speaking, even to this day. - Oh! - But I remember it feeling really powerful. I think probably because of this space and I think that time in my life of feeling like when you're surrounded by strong women who are supporting you, so I remember it feeling like this incredible like, I've got something to say and these people want to hear it. It wasn't just like, okay, now I got to do my part, or yeah, it definitely felt like significant, like every voice spoken was really heard and savored. So this idea of yeah, I think too, it got, I had been mentored by Lucy and she was kind of my first feminist mentor, but it was kind of like feeling like this room of there is just so much possibility or feeling lifted up, or, yeah. - Yeah. There was a lot of enthusiasm and cheering during your talk. - Yes. Oh! - Especially near the end. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to have to send this to you. - Oh (laughs). - Yes (laughs). Yeah, so that's wonderful. So and then you also went, you also spoke at the 2003 - Yeah. - Conference. Could you talk about what you remember from that? - Yeah. - What that was like. - Yeah, I have to say that probably it was not as good (laughs) experience because I had just been through, I had been through hell with the church and I was in the midst of going through, - Wow. - I think that was in the midst of my ordination process and going through the NNPCW thing, it was like, I remember just feeling anxiety through most of it and through a lot of the preplanning process too, because I was at the point where the church had beaten me down to such, you know? - Yeah. - That like, it wasn't even. In some ways, I felt a little like, and this, again, I was in kind of a wounded place - Yes. - For multiple reasons, but very much so in terms of my relationship with the church and ordination. I felt like I needed to do it to honor the women who went before me. There was no saying no because it was such an honor to be asked and I think that the community of Reimagining. There are specific people, but also the spirit of it had given me so much that even then, it was, I needed to take part in it. But I remember it being painful. - Yeah. - And not being able to fully access it, you know, when I was kind of, you know, could just have this total, total spiritual experience when I was 19 years old or, - Yeah. - (mutters) 20 years old and what I'm doing with. - Yeah. - Yeah. But I still, I don't remember a lot of it. I remember our pieces. I remember what I spoke. I remember the nun that gave massages (interviewer laughs) or did the healing touch. But I think like, yeah. It was such a painful part of, it was a pretty hard point in my life. - Yes - It was hard to let it, let myself be nurtured by it. I felt like, and I think too in terms of choosing, because I remember what I spoke about. I spoke about a time during NNPCW when, I forget which piece it was, but I remember, we had been up until like, 2:00 in the morning, and we actually had a moderator of the Presbyterian Church on the phone at 2:00 in the morning and they had just de-funded us or something had happened. I don't remember, but that morning, there was either going to be, it was either the morning before that, which was the morning before the vote to de-fund us, or it was the morning after when we were going to bring forth, and this is the last time this ever happened in the Presbyterian Church because then they made a ruling that this was not allowed. A protest. So we did a protest. - Oh. - And after the protest, David Bev Jones had become like almost a grandfather, father figure to me now. Didn't know him at the time. Stood up and said, "We need to change our vote, "and this is too important, "and we can't betray "our daughters like this. "Change the vote." - Wow, no! Seriously? - Oh, it was just such, you know, so much drama, you know? But I remember that morning. I think this is what I spoke about, was Jim Rogers. And I have a feeling, I have to say. I just had a baby and it was a boy, but if it was a girl, I was going to name her June. And June doesn't even know what an impact she has had in my life. I mean, just such an amazing woman. I don't know if you know June Rogers? - I don't, no. - But someone who, yeah, just such a powerful presence. But she came into our hotel room and she sang the Sofia blessing to us. - Oh my. - And it was just so, - Oh! - So nurturing and powerful to just be blessed by this woman in this way, and it was just. And that experience too was amazing because I remember when they de-funded us, the next day we were like, okay, we're going to have, or the next hour. There's going to be a little gathering of some people who wanted to do something, and it was like, 100 people. - Wow. - And lots of, a lot of people were there to do queer activism and they put me an another young woman in their room and saying, "What do you want from us? "Tell us what you want from us." It was just like, no way. Again, here is feminism in action. We're not going to deal. This is like Jamie Sparr (interviewer laughs) and all these people. What can you do? You tell us what you need. And as a young person, I was just like, what? You're the wise ones. You're the, you know? But again, you know? Being an ally in that way, but then having this very spiritual moment. So I think I spoke about that, I think, at the gathering because it just was such, I felt like I needed to honor. That was the best story I could offer that would honor what the women had given me throughout the years. But I think the hardship was then, you know, the laymen kind of wrote about it, as they would (laughs). But then my home church, which is more. Waukesha, Wisconsin is a very conservative place, where I'm from, and my home church, they already were embroiled in a battle of me being a lesbian, so I was trying to be ordained as an out lesbian and then the Reimagining stuff came out and I think that I was involved in this. And this, all of the sudden, the fact that I was a lesbian (laughs) was like hardly an issue and they were just so upset by this, you know? - Really? - And again, the Da Vinci Code had just gone out, so there was all these articles. I think more public conversation about this notion of Sofia, so having to do a lot of work. I mean, back to them wanting me to write essays about the milk and honey ritual and things that, you know, again, I remember that I have to say that from '97 was so impactful. - Really? - For me, too. Oh my gosh, I just. Oh, and the biting of the apple. Do you remember that? - Mm-hmm. - Oh, my gosh! - Say some more about, what about the milk and honey ritual? - Oh, my gosh! I mean, yeah, it was this idea that, yeah, that communion, that there was, that communion isn't the be all, end all, that we could create ritual that was meaningful and that it even had historical ties and connected us to Christ Christa, the Christ community and that like, I even had, and my relationship with communion had changed over the years. I've been able to reimagine it, but I have to say, in moment, it's just like wow. Now I kind of see what sacrament feels like. You know? Wow, I'm part of something that's bigger than myself in terms of a spiritual moment, but bigger than myself even in a historic moment and it was so transcendent and I think we did it the last day and the biting of the apple, too, was just like, like thing that, yeah, this idea of just, oh, it was just so empowering as a young person to say, to do that not as an eff you to the church, but to do it as a Christian and as an act of faithfulness. It was just like, I just blow my mind. I thought Macalester was a radical place, but this was just like, I never like, so many things that like, it's one of those moments when you're like, how did they, this is at the very, this speaks to the very core of me. How could they have known? - Yes. - What could they have known to draw this out? This is, you know, yeah. It was just so interesting because you know, I think the tears are too, it's like (sniffs). I'm sure you're getting this, but I don't have a spiritual life like that anymore. I don't have a feminist - Yes. - Christian community. They don't, I don't even know if they exist anymore (laughs). So it's like, - Yes. - Those moments, oh! Were so amazing. So then years later, having to like (laughs) write essays about it from a theological perspective for my home church and it felt so vulnerable. It was something that was so spiritual and life giving to me. Now I have to defend it and try to explain it to them, and I'm feeling sorry for them too because they're trying to do their best, and I understand it does sound so different from anything they have ever encountered (laughs), you know? And then, so it was just, yeah, it was just a difficult time in my life. - Oh yeah. - And then, I think, too, it was hard because at that point, I was much more, I was working for that all I freely serve and I was on there. I did a lot of leadership in the GLBT Movement in the Presbyterian Church and so, I think too, to have to be a public figure, I'm just someone who hates conflict. I mean now in my 40s, I'm like, well you know, my 20-year-old self, like, why did she do that? You know. - Wow. - She loved justice so much (interviewer laughs) and she loved the community, and she loved. But I think what it was is the community in the margins. It's kind of like, I think of it as kind of like a, an order, like a Catholic order. If you think of the Benedictines or the Franciscans, like I felt like our band of Presbyterians were on the margins and I love them so much I wanted to stay in that community, but now, I think fighting for ordination, now being within it, I have no connection to the Presbyterian Church anymore. I don't go to Presbyterian meetings, I go to church sometimes, and to think that I fought so hard, but I think what I was fighting for too was to stay in that beloved community of outsiders, so it was so ironic that we were fighting to come in. I mean, I still, yeah, some moments I think it was the best thing I did, and I have a lot of pride for standing up for myself and for moving queer ordination foreword. You know how a story can be both and? It was that and it was very painful, and I'm wondering why did I do that (laughs)? - Oh (laughs)! - So anyway. - That's a lot of bravery for a young woman, I have to say. - Yeah! It was, but I think the thing that I regret most is I feel like my spiritual life suffered so much, you know? That I feel like, I wonder if I hadn't gotten so involved in NNPCW and ordination battle and if some of that could have been preserved. You know? - Yeah. - I'm not sure. - Yeah. - I still have a, I shouldn't say that. Maybe it's more, and maybe that's not my spiritual life, but it's my relationship with Christianity and my relationship with the church. - Yes. - And in some ways, my spiritual life to be honest. - Yeah, yeah. What happened with that ordination process? So you wrote essays for your home church? How were they received? - Yeah, I don't think they were received well. I mean, yeah. I never felt understood (laughs). - Yes, yeah. - Yeah. - And you were ordained? - I was, yeah, yeah. - Yeah. So it was difficult. That church lost a lot of membership over it and there was lots of all (mutters) meetings and it was very. That was the most difficult piece. The Presbyterian piece was less so because the Milwaukee Presbyterian is pretty progressive, so it was more my home church, which was more difficult. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I know some about this, but could you just fill me in on the piece about the college, the Presbyterian college? Just give a little background about that if you don't mind. - Yeah. So NNPCW? - Yes. - So it was a division of women's, of the women's ministry, the Presbyterian church. And there was a hired staff and kind of a leadership committee of women, Presbyterian women throughout the United States from different colleges and they produced resources and had retreats and Totty will talk, Totty wrote. Totty was in that position - Wow. - And she wrote. Actually, she wrote (laughs). Oh, it's such a, it's, to this day, a beautiful resource, so I have it (laughs) on my shelf. She wrote the first one that I think got us into so much trouble. You know? - What was it about? - Well, it's this wonderful guide and you take it out and there will be like, a discussion of sexuality, or, you know, oh, I'm just trying to think of some of the other, the environment or this thing, and it would be like, out of a, you know, discussion. A little bit about feminist theology, or maybe a couple of Bible verses and a little bit of theology that was influenced by feminist theology and some activities and discussion questions and it was just like, a packet that's really usable and that women could use on their campus. And I think that was, you know, and it was very inclusive of GLBT people and so then what happened was, they went on major attack. They called us the prodigal daughters that would not repent and the last vestige of Marxism is hanging off the skirts of NNPCW (laughs). So there was the Charlotte assembly. We were their focus and it was just me because I was the, - Wow. - At the time, I was working with Ann Julie, who was an utter saint in my life. She was working as the Director of Women's Advocacy at the church headquarters and I was her intern and then another woman was the intern for NNPCW. So she and I were really the only two women representing the NNPCW at the Charlotte Assembly. And then the Fort Worth Assembly was kind of another two terribles (laughs). We went and tried again. They spent $20,000 on a video trying to sent it to every voting commissioner about how awful we were, and it was just such a very small, I mean, this was such a teeny program, but I think they wanted to, we were scapegoated, saying, "well, look how bad "the PCUSA is," - Yeah. - And kind of using us to get the larger church in trouble, you know, in some ways, the larger denomination leadership and all that. But it was, yeah. It was very, very difficult. - So there was a vote to de-fund a protest and then a vote to? - Refund. - Refund? - Yes, in the Charlotte Assembly, yeah. - And then what happened to it after that? - Yeah, so yeah. And then, I think, at the next assembly, there was a vote to study it and that was awful because then, we had like, you know, there was like, a committee and there would be these meetings where the laymen would come and we would come and we would have to give testimony and just all this, just stuff. It was really icky. And so there was a study, and I think then we were allowed to go on. They actually asked me to be the chaplain. I thought it was going to be. But I told them, I said, "I would love to be the chaplain." Once I got ordained, so it continued. I don't know if it still continues to this day, but this was like, I don't know. This was a while ago now, but I told them I would be the chaplain if, that there would be no question about my sexuality, then. I'm not going to do this again, you know (laughs)? And they said, "Yes, yes, yes." But the first day was like, the woman who was Barbara Dua, - D-U-A, Dua? - I don't know, describe it to me, yeah. - Barbara Dua. - Yeah, yeah. - The person who is in her position, I'm forgetting her name. - Yes. - Was calling my phone and just up. "You can't say this and you can't say that," and I just said no. So then I had to write the women a note and say, "I can't operate in this denomination "with this kind of scrutiny "and I just don't think, "just ethically "and spiritually it's going to be "something I can do." So that was disappointing because they were so excited to have me, and then it was like, yeah, within a week. - Wow. - So I think I would have loved to have gotten back involved, but I didn't want to be, once again, the lightning rod (laughs). I was done doing that, so. - Well, as you look at this backlash against Reimagining, against the Presbyterian women, how do you account for it? What was it about? - Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting. I know, I wish I had. If you would have asked me this 10 years ago, I would have had a really articulate answer. This is more in the middle of it, you know. - Of course. - Yeah, I think that there, it was just, I mean, I just think of misogyny as a very, very core. I think there is. I don't even think it was fear, you know? At first you think of fear of losing power. There was some real hatred within it. I think that's. I remember, it was the first general assembly was the first time in my whole entire life I had felt the absence of God. It was the scariest moment in my life. - Oh! - And it lasted for like, a half-an-hour, but I had never experienced so much hate! - Oh! - And in the context, especially in the context of a faith community and I still, yeah, I still don't understand, yeah, I guess I still don't understand. I used to, I think, have a little bit more, and with my ordination, I really found compassion, I think, for people who didn't understand and I could get in front of the Presbytery and there were moments when my heart, I felt this incredible sense of protectedness because I felt so much compassion for people. They'd ask me a nasty question and I could feel compassion for them, so I felt protected, like, - Yes. - Like I had, you know, like, yeah. You don't understand me. There's this divide. I don't want this divide, you know? With Reimagining, it's so much more difficult for me to have that type of compassion for those who don't understand (laughs) because I, it did seem like it came from such a vile place and I mean, just patriarchy at its, like, at its just fiery, like, it just sickest, at the very sickest. It's like, some things are systemic and you are just so removed. The ideology has affected you or has affected culture or society and it has tricked down and you are living it, you don't know you're living in it. And you know, this was just, this was just hatred (laughs) for women at its very core. It was just, yeah. I just, I can give no excuse (laughs). You know what I mean? - Yes. - I try so hard to understand. Maybe this right now is, I haven't thought about these things. I haven't really thought about it in a long time. - So it was hatred directed against organizations and communities that you really cared about and it sounded like it was also directed personally at you. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. Yeah, it seemed very, I think, too, it did seem like there was no, especially, I think, because it was a young person. Usually, how you deal with young people is, you want to bring them back to the fold. You know? - Yes. - And we don't, and I could even see the Conservative argument like, we could do better for our young women and articulation of that, but it wasn't that. There was just (laughs). I mean, there was such hatred and it's probably because they saw us as something different than young women. They saw us as, I think, I don't know, maybe powerful that we had this. Maybe it was that we were powerful and had this power to change the church and so they couldn't see us as, you know, kind of some of, not, I think, we were most vulnerable, but a population within the church that needed, first and foremost to be cared for and then we can talk about the politics of what is happening within the, you know what I mean? - Yes. - It was just, - It was to expel you. It wasn't to, is that was it felt like? - Yeah. Yeah. - That you were dangerous or? - Yeah (laughs). - Yeah, and we have to get rid of you. - Yeah, I think that is just, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And I can't, I mean, and yet, you at least for a while stayed. You still got ordained. - Yeah, yeah. - What was that coming from? Where were you? How did you maintain that kind of strength and commitment? - Oh yeah, it was in, it was in the community of women and the LGBT community that I found so much spiritual life. Just like Reimagining, we could create that space for each other, you know? We're on a treat, on a committee meeting. We could create those beautiful experiences for each other along the way, you know? Which, I think, that was definitely the strength. And luckily, That All May Freely Serve, I'm not sure, I wouldn't maybe say that's the other more like Presbyterians and Covenant Network, but That All May Freely Serve, this is the LGBT organization within the church that I worked within was just feminist to its very core. I mean, Lisa Larges and Janie Spar and so, in some ways, it was, there wasn't a distinction between the movements, or. - Yeah. - And so yeah, it was definitely those communities. - Wow, this is really powerful (laughs). So looking back on it, in the end, how would you define Reimagining? - Hmm. It was a historic event within Protestantism that awokened a larger public to feminist theology and that also gave space for feminist theology to be lived in worship and in the spiritual practice of women. And yeah. Yeah, I guess I wouldn't define it by the backlash at all, you know? - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That is a great description (laughs). - Better for it. (interviewer and Eily laugh) - Yeah, and to follow along with that, so what aspect of Reimagining were most significant to you and why? - Oh, yeah. I think I remember that book. Of the book that we got, too. I went back to that so often, but I don't have it. It would be great, too. Some of the rituals and some of the, oh, maybe I have it someplace. - The website. - Oh, the website. Okay. - It will have it, yes. - Yeah. - You're talking about the programs of the gathering? - Yeah. Yeah. - Yes. - And I think there was like, a binder that was, but I think the ritual - Yes. - That was created was just, was incredible. I think ritual is just so important. I think, too, yeah. I mean, I think the theology around Christology, I think, is super important. I mean, as a young person, I was so, it's such an impression on me. And yeah, I read Nakashima Brock's work. She was just, I got exposed to her. And just, yeah. She was such an inspiration. For sure. And then, yeah. But then was also such a divide because it was kind of older women, you know? I think, for me, it was a mentoring community and I never felt like an insider. It's a community I got to be a part of at some points and then be through Threads and through GLBT Movement, then I was able to incorporate and be a part of more. Yeah. - Yeah. - I think the mentoring component was really important, too. - And did that just happen at the gatherings? - Well, I think it was a mentoring community, for sure. I think so often it's not individuals, right? - Right. - That was so amazing to feel so held, but then a lot of relationships because then I moved to Louisville, Kentucky and the church headquarters - Ah! - Right after that, so I graduated college in '97 and then I spent the next two years in Louisville, so all of the relationships with the women who were involved in Louisville level. - Oh! - So it was like, I got to know the Minnesota women, but then it was really those women then those next to years that became so important to me as well, and so. - Had you met them at the Reimagining gathering? - No. - Yeah, okay. - Because they were, yeah. - Yes. - They were probably there. - Yes. - But I hadn't realized that my life was going to take me to Louisville. - What were you doing in Louisville again? - I was the intern for women's advocacy. That was my first job out of college. - Okay. - Yeah. - Exciting. Did you involvement in Reimagining change your perspective on feminist theology or the church? - Yeah, almost definitely. Yes. I mean, feminist theology in that, yeah. See it as a living, breathing thing and in my whole, my whole journey was going to be to Union in New York and to study with all these, you know, Beverly. And I did get into New York, and I was actually living in Morning Side Heights. - Oh! - Like two weeks before I was to go to Union and study with, you know, Beverly Hurst. That was my dream. But then I, yeah, I couldn't. I kind of got scared financially because I didn't get any scholarships and so I was like. So the last minute, McCormick offered me this big scholarship and I decided to change courses. But yeah, I think that realizing that these weren't just words on a page, that these were. And I think that's, when you read about Latin-American liberation theology, it's so, like, it's so contextualized in a struggle for actual like, physical liberation and freedom. And it's being created by people on the margins and I think I like seeing, Reimaginging help put me in a community where I understood that feminist theology was the same. It is being created by women within the context not of their spiritual lives. And even as academics, Beverly, she's brilliant and she's not just writing feminist theology. She is a practitioner. It comes from both a spiritual and a theological space. I think, too, being able to, coming from Macalester being exposed to it and then being able to see, incorporate it into the lives of women. - What was different about Reimagining? How did Reimagining do that? - Yeah. Well, my only other experience of shared religious life had been, Threads, I mean, I guess. And some that was worship, is Protestant worship. So I mean like (laughs). I had no idea about the possibilities that I could live outside of those bounds. It just was, yeah, it was just. I mean now, as a minister, I write a wedding, I write someone's wedding ceremony and I've got all this freedom and the couple has all this freedom and it's just this creative process. (interviewer laughs) And it's just like, wonderful thinking about people's spiritual lives and creating this beautiful experience that expresses that. That was just totally outside of my realm of possibility, I think. - Yeah. - To have, yeah. And I think, too, inclusive language was just so incredible. This notion that God didn't have a gender. All of these things I could process them academically and mentally, but to be able to live into them was just, you know, Reimagining was probably my first exposure of that. - Yeah, yeah. That is great. So in the end, what do you think is the greatest legacy of Reimagining? - You know, it is hard. It's been hard. When I was a chaplain, it was hard being a chaplain (laughs) and my students not caring about inclusive, like, women. And not caring about inclusive language and not feeling like we need to do any women's retreats (laughs). In some ways, it's like, how can this happen? How can this be so, yeah, and so now, like now, working at this engagement center, I haven't been really like, you know, I'm not really up kind of where feminist theology has gone, you know (laughs)? - Sure (laughs)! How would you say where, you mentioned you're not that connected to the Presbyterian Church. Do you feel, how would you compare where it is now to where it was then in terms of inclusive language, feminist theology and liturgy? Do you have a sense of that? - I don't, not denomination-wide because I've always been at churches where that is lost. So I don't know. But I do think, I mean, obviously, you can use the GLBT example as (laughs) the church has like, massively shifted and there is going to have to be a watershed moment where people were exposed to the great variety of Christian practice and belief and that was like, I think Reimagining in some ways was that first exposure and it was painful, but once we got, I think it got less and less, it was so painful for both sides, apparently. I want to believe it was actually painful for these people who were so angry. I want to believe that it was painful for both sides, but I think it was less so. Then it was like, okay, how are we going to, we're going to fight this out, but it wasn't going to be as violent, you know (laughs)? So maybe it's. And in some ways, it was, yeah. It was kind of like, not just for feminism, but for. And again, it's so hard for me to understand how the Church at large experienced Reimagining because I was so involved and knowledgeable. Like, how? But I think, at least in the Presbyterian Church, in some ways it was like a coming-out moment. Women coming out of their hiding and being able to be who they are. And I thinK now, that is maybe the legacy that we do that more within the context of our church lives. I have to think that, I know that feminist theology might not, and kind of your average Joe church might not make it to the pulpit as such, but because its being taught so now, I think so across the board in Presbyterian seminaries that I think pastors, even your most moderate pastor now has a range and can work within it rather than, so there is just so much exposure. So I have to think that that makes an impact on women in the pews. That even a mail minister can even understand God in new ways and the Christ event and can, even if he's not there, at least reach in and he can create a container for that now because he's, hopefully, at least at McCormick, he would have read, you know (laughs)? His share of feminist theology. I know Reimagining, as painful as the backlash was, it did put feminist theology on the map in the academy and I think in the Church. - Yes, yeah. Well, and to end, getting close to the end here, I have one other big question, and that is, what does Reimagining mean today? By that, I don't meant just the conference or the community, but what needs to be reimaginged today? - Oh, yeah, yeah. - In church, spirituality, however you want to define that. - Yeah. Oh, so much. Yeah, I think worship needs to be reimagined. I love church and I just don't like worship (laughs). It's maybe because I know how good it can be. - Yeah. How does it need to be reimagined? - I don't know. I would like church to be more like doing spiritual direction together. You know? - Mm-hmm. - Where it's more interactional, yeah, there's more interaction, more sharing, more feeling like we are, yeah. On a journey together. Yeah, so much needs to be reimagined. I think I get pretty excited about, I think, the relationship between Evangelicals and Protestants, and I think that's in the midst of being reimaginig and I'm so excited about that. I think that there's a lot of energy there and I met a lot of Evangelicals and I think that there is just, and I think in the Catholic Church. I may need to say that. I think with the Pope, I think there is a lot of Reimagining happening in the Church right now, which is really incredible. And just the right issues. I think right now, for me, what needs to be reimagined societally is race relations and the environment are the ones that I think are most pressing need. - I have one last, very specific question. (Eily laughs) We are working on a Reimagining website and we're just, and part of it will be historical. We'll be putting up, digitizing conferences, putting up resources, but we also want to include current resources and things. And I'm just wondering if you have ideas about what would be helpful, - Mm. - What would be suggestions? How we could reach people, content, both of those things. Any of those things. Any suggestions. - Yeah! - What would be useful to you or the people you know? - Oh, it's so interesting. Some sort of networking device. - Yeah. - It's so funny. I just was, just the other day, was writing down names of women that I needed to call to try to create a woman's spirituality group now and (laughs) I haven't had one. This idea of finding, you think would be easier. I'm a clergy but I'm not that connected. - Yeah. - And I think yeah, a way of, yeah, if there's any way of connecting people, like-minded people, or yeah. I think simple liturgies that could be used. I think a lot of the Reimagining stuff is because they're trying to teach theology through it. - Yeah. - It's pretty, if I remember, it's pretty thick. - Yes. - Because it needed to be. It's teaching through the word, which is so awesome, but I think some, that would be really great to have like, some grab and go, just the spirit of things. Yeah. I think the most important thing is the history. Yeah. Because a lot of, yeah. And I think of, yeah, a lot of women who were involved have passed. - Yep. - So something that maybe honors their legacy. - Exactly. This has been very rich and really wonderful. Is there anything you'd like to add? Something we haven't discussed that you would want to say? - Yeah, I can't think of anything, but maybe I'll email you, too. - Good! - Because you brought back some really good memories - Good. - That I have, like the milk and honey ritual and the biting of the apple. I haven't thought about that in years. - Oh, wonderful. - Yeah, thank you. - Well, thank you. Turn this off.