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Eily, thank you so much
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for being interviewed.
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If I could just get some background,
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if you could say and maybe spell your name?
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Okay, it's Eily, E-I-L-Y.
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My real name is Elizabeth
Oh!
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Marlow, M-A-R-L-O-W.
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Okay, thank you.
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And are you lay or clergy?
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Clergy.
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And your denominational affiliation?
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Is Presbyterian.
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Great, thank you.
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When and where were you born, Eily?
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I was born in Waukesha, Wisconsin.
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Okay.
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March 18, 1975.
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Okay, great.
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And where did you go to graduate or divinity school?
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McCormick Theological Center in Chicago.
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Okay, great.
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And what work or ministry were you doing
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at the time of Reimagining?
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The first Reimagining, I was a college student
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at Macalester.
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That was in '96?
Uh-huh.
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Yeah.
Yeah.
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The first one you spoke at or the?
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Well, I'm thinking of the one that.
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I spoke in '97.
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That was the one after.
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'96 was the first one, right?
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'93 was the first one.
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Oh, '93!
Yes, yes.
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So I was a college student then, too.
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Okay (laughs), okay, good, good.
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And then in 2003, what kind of work were you doing?
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I was a chaplain
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here at Macalester, the Associate Chaplain.
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Great.
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And could you say a little bit about the work
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you're doing now?
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Which is very exciting, by the way.
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Oh, thank you.
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So right now, I am the Program Associate
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for vocation reflection at Macalester College,
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so working with students on asking bigger questions
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of meaning and purpose in their life
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and doing everything from looking at ethics
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in the professional life
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to doing vocational discernment
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and looking at kind of civic leadership
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and helping students understand their responsibility
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to the world.
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Fantastic, that's great.
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And do you remember when and how you got interested
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in feminist theology?
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Yeah.
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So for me,
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it was,
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I mean, if I think about,
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I was exposed to feminism before I was
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a post of feminist theology,
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and I came to Macalester as a Presbyterian
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and actually had it in Biblical verses
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in my application!
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(interviewer laughs)
But when I got here,
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I realized I was not going to be able to be Christian.
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That was not,
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that was not going to be a way of being
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in this new context.
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And so I really kind of put that piece of myself aside
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and Macalester held a lot of my values already,
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my social, political,
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and the value of service to society
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and so it kind of worked in some ways
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because I was still living out of faith
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but didn't see I could be feminist and Christian
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and this place didn't give me,
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at first, a possible path for that.
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And so I guess it was two,
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I mean, it was really two pieces.
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First it was in the classrooms.
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Tony Pen was now at Rice University,
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was here and taught black liberation theology,
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Latin-American liberation theology and feminist.
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He did a little bit on feminist theology
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and he has our papers.
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He had us write our own theology.
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Wow.
I mean, he, you know,
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was just so empowering as a 20-year-old
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to kind of write our beliefs
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and so that was, I think, one piece.
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And then I started getting involved in the chaplaincy here
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and Lucy Forester Smith was a Chaplain
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and she was a feminist
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and she introduced me to the National Network
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Presbyterian college women
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and then I think she was the one who invited me
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to speak at Reimagining.
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Oh!
Initially.
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And when I was exposed to Reimagining
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and I got to experience
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all of these people I was reading in the classroom,
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seeing that this was not just,
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these weren't just academic ideas,
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but these are ways of living a spiritual life
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and it was just,
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that conference just totally,
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it was just such a transition for me.
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Wow.
Because I was,
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I had,
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I just lost my thought.
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Yeah, I remember with Tony,
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my senior year I was doing,
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Reimagining was when?
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'93 was the first one
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and you spoke at '96.
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So it was in the summer of '96?
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I don't remember what month it was, I'm sorry.
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I think it was.
Yeah.
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So that next year then, I went and did
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an independent study with him on queer liberation theology.
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This was before that was even written.
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Now there's tons of written, but back in the '90s.
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Wow!
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And I went to Spirit of the Lakes Church
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and was researching whether you could live,
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you know, if worship could
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hold this theology in a meaningful way.
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So it was my capstone.
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I mean, it was my capstone.
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I looked at this too in terms of communication studies,
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in terms of preaching and liberation theology
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and my religious studies Masters,
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looking at too, queer liberation theology
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and whether liberation theology
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could be lived in worship.
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So really at the end, became a.
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And then I started coming out as a Christian on campus.
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I remember I got interviewed
(interviewer laughs)
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for the house for today,
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and I would let them publish it,
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but I said feminist Christian before every time
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they said I was a Christian because I was so nervous.
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Wow.
For my parents to,
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it was just a big transition,
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but a really liberating one, too.
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And what kind of reaction did you get
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as a feminist Christian on campus?
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Well, I found a lot of other feminist Christians
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and mostly, we started women's theology,
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women's, after,
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I mean, this was too, I think, inspired.
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I don't know if this was inspired by Reimagining,
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but my involvement
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certainly was, we started a women's spirituality group
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called Threads on Campus
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and it was women who were pagan, and Christian,
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and Jewish, and I think too,
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that was, yeah.
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So I found my people
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within that year.
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So I had kind of in some ways
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two sets of friends, then.
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The people who understood this piece of me.
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You talked about that group in your presentation in '96.
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Oh, I did!
You did, yes!
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About Thread, yes (laughs).
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Okay, yeah.
Yes.
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I don't know what,
Yes.
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What came first.
Yes, yeah.
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That's amazing, that's really interesting.
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So you think it was probably the chaplain
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who got you involved?
Yes, uh-huh.
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You went to the '93?
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The very first one?
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I did no.
Oh, okay.
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She got me involved just by speaking.
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They probably had asked her to get
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a college student to speak
Yes.
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And then I was that college student (laughs).
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Okay (laughs).
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I spoke, but then I got to go
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to the whole conference.
Wow.
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And that was such a gift.
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What do you?
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It's been a while,
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I know.
Yeah.
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But other moments stand out?
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What do you remember from it?
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I remember letting Russell,
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I think she spoke, right?
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Mm-hmm.
Oh, and I remember,
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wasn't there the art that was being produced
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while the conference was going?
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The intentionality,
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that things could be done.
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I don't think I really come from a culture of retreats.
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I mean, now I lead retreats and I go to retreats,
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but I don't think I've ever
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that in of itself,
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that something could be so beautifully
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and thoughtfully done
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in academics and kind of your spiritual life
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could be nurtured in tandem
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and I remember they had paper on the tables
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for you to color and to.
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I mean, the whole, yeah,
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it wasn't just this radical theology
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that was liberating,
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really liberating
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my spirit
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to kind of claim kind of a new relationship with God,
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which was happening.
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And it wasn't just my academic self
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being nurtured, it was the space
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that was created, I think, too.
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I've been nurtured by people before,
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but I don't think I had ever been nurtured
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by a space so completely,
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and I think that was so
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different.
Yeah.
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Wow.
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Do you remember, and I know it's been a while,
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what that experience was like for you
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in giving your presentation?
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You were part of a group of people.
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Yeah, I don't have tons of.
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I remember walking out, but I remember it.
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It was sharing, maybe, the story of becoming Christian
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on campus.
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Yeah.
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I have to say,
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I dislike like public speaking,
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even to this day.
Oh!
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But I remember it feeling really powerful.
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I think probably because of this space
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and I think that time in my life
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of feeling like when you're surrounded by strong women
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who are supporting you,
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so I remember it feeling like this incredible like,
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I've got something to say and these people want to hear it.
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It wasn't just like, okay, now I got to do my part,
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or yeah, it definitely felt like significant,
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like every voice spoken was really heard and savored.
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So this idea of yeah,
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I think too, it got,
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I had been mentored by Lucy
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and she was kind of my first feminist mentor,
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but it was kind of like feeling like this room
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of there is just so much possibility
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or feeling lifted up,
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or, yeah.
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Yeah.
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There was a lot of enthusiasm and cheering
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during your talk.
Yes.
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Oh!
Especially near the end.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I'm going to have to send this to you.
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Oh (laughs).
Yes (laughs).
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Yeah, so that's wonderful.
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So and then you also went,
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you also spoke at the 2003
Yeah.
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Conference.
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Could you talk about what you remember from that?
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Yeah.
What that was like.
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Yeah, I have to say that probably it was not
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as good (laughs) experience
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because I had just been through,
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I had been through hell with the church
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and I was in the midst of going through,
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Wow.
I think that was
274
00:10:40.125 --> 00:10:41.535
in the midst of my ordination process
275
00:10:41.535 --> 00:10:45.117
and going through the NNPCW thing,
276
00:10:45.117 --> 00:10:49.421
it was like, I remember just feeling anxiety
277
00:10:49.421 --> 00:10:51.754
through most of it and through a lot of
278
00:10:51.754 --> 00:10:53.640
the preplanning process too,
279
00:10:53.640 --> 00:10:56.145
because I was at the point where the church
280
00:10:56.145 --> 00:10:58.663
had beaten me down to such, you know?
281
00:10:58.663 --> 00:11:01.721
Yeah.
That like, it wasn't even.
282
00:11:01.721 --> 00:11:04.440
In some ways, I felt a little like,
283
00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:07.449
and this, again, I was in kind of a wounded place
284
00:11:07.449 --> 00:11:09.800
Yes.
For multiple reasons,
285
00:11:09.800 --> 00:11:11.133
but very much so
286
00:11:12.281 --> 00:11:14.531
in terms of my relationship
287
00:11:15.510 --> 00:11:18.093
with the church and ordination.
288
00:11:20.622 --> 00:11:24.438
I felt like I needed to do it to honor the women
289
00:11:24.438 --> 00:11:25.685
who went before me.
290
00:11:25.685 --> 00:11:27.418
There was no saying no
291
00:11:27.418 --> 00:11:30.499
because it was such an honor to be asked
292
00:11:30.499 --> 00:11:34.235
and I think that the community of Reimagining.
293
00:11:34.235 --> 00:11:38.736
There are specific people, but also the spirit of it
294
00:11:38.736 --> 00:11:40.403
had given me so much
295
00:11:41.722 --> 00:11:43.582
that even then,
296
00:11:43.582 --> 00:11:44.415
it was,
297
00:11:45.522 --> 00:11:48.350
I needed to take part in it.
298
00:11:48.350 --> 00:11:50.597
But I remember it being painful.
299
00:11:50.597 --> 00:11:53.362
Yeah.
And not being able
300
00:11:53.362 --> 00:11:55.218
to fully access it,
301
00:11:55.218 --> 00:11:57.635
you know, when I was kind of,
302
00:11:58.560 --> 00:12:01.874
you know, could just have this total,
303
00:12:01.874 --> 00:12:05.812
total spiritual experience when I was 19 years old
304
00:12:05.812 --> 00:12:06.645
or,
Yeah.
305
00:12:08.139 --> 00:12:11.003
(mutters) 20 years old and what I'm doing with.
306
00:12:11.003 --> 00:12:12.201
Yeah.
Yeah.
307
00:12:12.201 --> 00:12:13.605
But I still,
308
00:12:13.605 --> 00:12:14.584
I don't remember a lot of it.
309
00:12:14.584 --> 00:12:16.321
I remember our pieces.
310
00:12:16.321 --> 00:12:17.665
I remember what I spoke.
311
00:12:17.665 --> 00:12:20.274
I remember the nun that gave massages
312
00:12:20.274 --> 00:12:21.710
(interviewer laughs)
313
00:12:21.710 --> 00:12:23.793
or did the healing touch.
314
00:12:29.063 --> 00:12:30.480
But I think like,
315
00:12:34.897 --> 00:12:35.980
yeah.
316
00:12:35.980 --> 00:12:38.246
It was such a painful part of,
317
00:12:38.246 --> 00:12:41.294
it was a pretty hard point in my life.
318
00:12:41.294 --> 00:12:42.296
Yes
319
00:12:42.296 --> 00:12:44.731
It was hard to let it,
320
00:12:44.731 --> 00:12:47.085
let myself be nurtured by it.
321
00:12:47.085 --> 00:12:48.547
I felt like,
322
00:12:48.547 --> 00:12:50.978
and I think too in terms of choosing,
323
00:12:50.978 --> 00:12:52.530
because I remember what I spoke about.
324
00:12:52.530 --> 00:12:56.080
I spoke about a time during NNPCW
325
00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:56.913
when,
326
00:12:58.217 --> 00:12:59.572
I forget which piece it was,
327
00:12:59.572 --> 00:13:01.674
but I remember, we had been up until like,
328
00:13:01.674 --> 00:13:04.116
2:00 in the morning, and we actually had a moderator
329
00:13:04.116 --> 00:13:05.830
of the Presbyterian Church on the phone
330
00:13:05.830 --> 00:13:07.934
at 2:00 in the morning and they had just de-funded us
331
00:13:07.934 --> 00:13:09.270
or something had happened.
332
00:13:09.270 --> 00:13:10.594
I don't remember, but that morning,
333
00:13:10.594 --> 00:13:12.103
there was either going to be,
334
00:13:12.103 --> 00:13:13.436
it was either the morning
335
00:13:13.436 --> 00:13:15.064
before that, which was the morning before the vote
336
00:13:15.064 --> 00:13:16.231
to de-fund us,
337
00:13:17.113 --> 00:13:20.010
or it was the morning after
338
00:13:20.010 --> 00:13:22.022
when we were going to bring forth,
339
00:13:22.022 --> 00:13:24.000
and this is the last time this ever happened
340
00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:25.133
in the Presbyterian Church
341
00:13:25.133 --> 00:13:27.735
because then they made a ruling that this was not allowed.
342
00:13:27.735 --> 00:13:29.040
A protest.
343
00:13:29.040 --> 00:13:30.505
So we did a protest.
Oh.
344
00:13:30.505 --> 00:13:32.505
And after the protest,
345
00:13:33.526 --> 00:13:37.377
David Bev Jones had become like almost a grandfather,
346
00:13:37.377 --> 00:13:39.178
father figure to me now.
347
00:13:39.178 --> 00:13:40.705
Didn't know him at the time.
348
00:13:40.705 --> 00:13:42.858
Stood up and said, "We need to change our vote,
349
00:13:42.858 --> 00:13:44.420
"and this is too important,
350
00:13:44.420 --> 00:13:46.423
"and we can't betray
351
00:13:46.423 --> 00:13:48.813
"our daughters like this.
352
00:13:48.813 --> 00:13:51.115
"Change the vote."
Wow, no!
353
00:13:51.115 --> 00:13:53.031
Seriously?
Oh, it was just such,
354
00:13:53.031 --> 00:13:55.799
you know, so much drama, you know?
355
00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:58.468
But I remember that morning.
356
00:13:58.468 --> 00:13:59.861
I think this is what I spoke about,
357
00:13:59.861 --> 00:14:01.384
was Jim Rogers.
358
00:14:01.384 --> 00:14:04.191
And I have a feeling, I have to say.
359
00:14:04.191 --> 00:14:07.654
I just had a baby and it was a boy,
360
00:14:07.654 --> 00:14:09.338
but if it was a girl,
361
00:14:09.338 --> 00:14:10.837
I was going to name her June.
362
00:14:10.837 --> 00:14:12.757
And June doesn't even know what an impact
363
00:14:12.757 --> 00:14:13.758
she has had in my life.
364
00:14:13.758 --> 00:14:15.999
I mean, just such an amazing woman.
365
00:14:15.999 --> 00:14:17.595
I don't know if you know June Rogers?
366
00:14:17.595 --> 00:14:18.602
I don't, no.
367
00:14:18.602 --> 00:14:20.215
But someone who, yeah,
368
00:14:20.215 --> 00:14:22.626
just such a powerful presence.
369
00:14:22.626 --> 00:14:25.293
But she came into our hotel room
370
00:14:26.642 --> 00:14:29.112
and she sang the Sofia blessing to us.
371
00:14:29.112 --> 00:14:29.945
Oh my.
372
00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:34.165
And it was just so,
Oh!
373
00:14:34.165 --> 00:14:37.150
So nurturing and powerful
374
00:14:37.150 --> 00:14:39.102
to just be blessed by this woman
375
00:14:39.102 --> 00:14:40.747
in this way,
376
00:14:40.747 --> 00:14:42.543
and it was just.
377
00:14:42.543 --> 00:14:43.918
And that experience too was amazing
378
00:14:43.918 --> 00:14:45.835
because I remember when
379
00:14:46.870 --> 00:14:49.453
they de-funded us, the next day
380
00:14:50.771 --> 00:14:52.741
we were like, okay, we're going to have,
381
00:14:52.741 --> 00:14:54.014
or the next hour.
382
00:14:54.014 --> 00:14:55.908
There's going to be a little gathering of some people
383
00:14:55.908 --> 00:14:57.047
who wanted to do something,
384
00:14:57.047 --> 00:14:57.880
and it was like,
385
00:14:57.880 --> 00:14:59.255
100 people.
Wow.
386
00:14:59.255 --> 00:15:00.914
And lots of, a lot of people were there
387
00:15:00.914 --> 00:15:01.747
to do queer activism
388
00:15:01.747 --> 00:15:04.138
and they put me an another young woman
389
00:15:04.138 --> 00:15:05.797
in their room and saying, "What do you want from us?
390
00:15:05.797 --> 00:15:07.055
"Tell us what you want from us."
391
00:15:07.055 --> 00:15:08.840
It was just like, no way.
392
00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:10.773
Again, here is feminism in action.
393
00:15:10.773 --> 00:15:13.203
We're not going to deal.
394
00:15:13.203 --> 00:15:14.642
This is like Jamie Sparr
(interviewer laughs)
395
00:15:14.642 --> 00:15:15.968
and all these people.
396
00:15:15.968 --> 00:15:16.801
What can you do?
397
00:15:16.801 --> 00:15:18.095
You tell us what you need.
398
00:15:18.095 --> 00:15:21.079
And as a young person, I was just like, what?
399
00:15:21.079 --> 00:15:23.262
You're the wise ones.
400
00:15:23.262 --> 00:15:25.186
You're the, you know?
401
00:15:25.186 --> 00:15:27.256
But again, you know?
402
00:15:27.256 --> 00:15:28.678
Being an ally in that way,
403
00:15:28.678 --> 00:15:30.925
but then having this very spiritual moment.
404
00:15:30.925 --> 00:15:33.389
So I think I spoke about that, I think,
405
00:15:33.389 --> 00:15:37.003
at the gathering because it just was such,
406
00:15:37.003 --> 00:15:39.503
I felt like I needed to honor.
407
00:15:41.304 --> 00:15:42.960
That was the best story I could offer
408
00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:44.558
that would honor
409
00:15:44.558 --> 00:15:48.428
what the women had given me throughout the years.
410
00:15:48.428 --> 00:15:50.612
But I think the hardship
411
00:15:50.612 --> 00:15:52.195
was then, you know,
412
00:15:53.228 --> 00:15:54.977
the laymen kind of wrote about it,
413
00:15:54.977 --> 00:15:56.894
as they would (laughs).
414
00:15:56.894 --> 00:15:58.746
But then my home church,
415
00:15:58.746 --> 00:16:00.047
which is more.
416
00:16:00.047 --> 00:16:02.627
Waukesha, Wisconsin is a very conservative place,
417
00:16:02.627 --> 00:16:03.460
where I'm from,
418
00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:05.781
and my home church, they already
419
00:16:05.781 --> 00:16:08.528
were embroiled in a battle
420
00:16:08.528 --> 00:16:12.242
of me being a lesbian, so I was trying to be ordained
421
00:16:12.242 --> 00:16:13.486
as an out lesbian
422
00:16:13.486 --> 00:16:15.993
and then the Reimagining stuff came out
423
00:16:15.993 --> 00:16:18.602
and I think that I was involved in this.
424
00:16:18.602 --> 00:16:20.651
And this, all of the sudden,
425
00:16:20.651 --> 00:16:22.922
the fact that I was a lesbian (laughs)
426
00:16:22.922 --> 00:16:24.922
was like hardly an issue
427
00:16:26.912 --> 00:16:29.896
and they were just so upset by this,
428
00:16:29.896 --> 00:16:31.635
you know?
Really?
429
00:16:31.635 --> 00:16:34.296
And again, the Da Vinci Code had just gone out,
430
00:16:34.296 --> 00:16:35.622
so there was all these articles.
431
00:16:35.622 --> 00:16:37.239
I think more public conversation
432
00:16:37.239 --> 00:16:39.427
about this notion of Sofia,
433
00:16:39.427 --> 00:16:41.775
so having to do a lot of work.
434
00:16:41.775 --> 00:16:44.096
I mean, back to them wanting me
435
00:16:44.096 --> 00:16:46.844
to write essays about the milk and honey ritual
436
00:16:46.844 --> 00:16:49.117
and things that, you know, again,
437
00:16:49.117 --> 00:16:51.950
I remember that I have to say that
438
00:16:54.914 --> 00:16:56.052
from '97
439
00:16:56.052 --> 00:16:57.496
was so impactful.
Really?
440
00:16:57.496 --> 00:16:58.947
For me, too.
441
00:16:58.947 --> 00:16:59.956
Oh my gosh, I just.
442
00:16:59.956 --> 00:17:01.422
Oh, and the biting of the apple.
443
00:17:01.422 --> 00:17:02.440
Do you remember that?
444
00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:03.441
Mm-hmm.
Oh, my gosh!
445
00:17:03.441 --> 00:17:04.274
Say some more about,
446
00:17:04.274 --> 00:17:05.832
what about the milk and honey ritual?
447
00:17:05.832 --> 00:17:07.365
Oh, my gosh!
448
00:17:07.365 --> 00:17:08.198
I mean,
449
00:17:09.571 --> 00:17:10.574
yeah, it was
450
00:17:10.574 --> 00:17:11.824
this idea that,
451
00:17:15.143 --> 00:17:16.740
yeah, that communion,
452
00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:18.435
that there was,
453
00:17:18.435 --> 00:17:21.719
that communion isn't the be all, end all,
454
00:17:21.719 --> 00:17:24.312
that we could create ritual that was meaningful
455
00:17:24.312 --> 00:17:27.312
and that it even had historical ties
456
00:17:30.072 --> 00:17:32.407
and connected us to Christ Christa,
457
00:17:32.407 --> 00:17:34.074
the Christ community
458
00:17:37.552 --> 00:17:39.407
and that like,
459
00:17:39.407 --> 00:17:40.497
I even had,
460
00:17:40.497 --> 00:17:41.678
and my relationship with communion
461
00:17:41.678 --> 00:17:42.928
had changed over the years.
462
00:17:42.928 --> 00:17:45.307
I've been able to reimagine it,
463
00:17:45.307 --> 00:17:47.064
but I have to say, in moment,
464
00:17:47.064 --> 00:17:48.232
it's just like wow.
465
00:17:48.232 --> 00:17:50.982
Now I kind of see what sacrament feels like.
466
00:17:50.982 --> 00:17:52.530
You know?
467
00:17:52.530 --> 00:17:56.584
Wow, I'm part of something that's bigger than myself
468
00:17:56.584 --> 00:17:58.980
in terms of a spiritual moment,
469
00:17:58.980 --> 00:18:01.874
but bigger than myself even in a historic moment
470
00:18:01.874 --> 00:18:05.771
and it was so transcendent and I think we did it
471
00:18:05.771 --> 00:18:07.457
the last day
472
00:18:07.457 --> 00:18:09.817
and the biting of the apple, too,
473
00:18:09.817 --> 00:18:10.984
was just like,
474
00:18:12.418 --> 00:18:13.751
like thing that,
475
00:18:14.698 --> 00:18:16.698
yeah, this idea of just,
476
00:18:19.740 --> 00:18:22.533
oh, it was just so empowering as a young person
477
00:18:22.533 --> 00:18:23.366
to say,
478
00:18:24.230 --> 00:18:27.411
to do that not as an eff you to the church,
479
00:18:27.411 --> 00:18:28.723
but to do it as a Christian
480
00:18:28.723 --> 00:18:31.017
and as an act of faithfulness.
481
00:18:31.017 --> 00:18:32.742
It was just like,
482
00:18:32.742 --> 00:18:34.785
I just blow my mind.
483
00:18:34.785 --> 00:18:36.184
I thought Macalester was a radical place,
484
00:18:36.184 --> 00:18:37.174
but this was just like,
485
00:18:37.174 --> 00:18:39.010
I never like,
486
00:18:39.010 --> 00:18:41.059
so many things that like,
487
00:18:41.059 --> 00:18:44.578
it's one of those moments when you're like,
488
00:18:44.578 --> 00:18:46.489
how did they,
489
00:18:46.489 --> 00:18:48.239
this is at the very,
490
00:18:48.239 --> 00:18:50.618
this speaks to the very core of me.
491
00:18:50.618 --> 00:18:51.987
How could they have known?
492
00:18:51.987 --> 00:18:53.394
Yes.
What could they have known
493
00:18:53.394 --> 00:18:54.653
to draw this out?
494
00:18:54.653 --> 00:18:56.100
This is,
495
00:18:56.100 --> 00:18:56.933
you know,
496
00:18:57.993 --> 00:18:59.395
yeah.
497
00:18:59.395 --> 00:19:00.862
It was just so interesting because you know,
498
00:19:00.862 --> 00:19:02.357
I think the tears are too,
499
00:19:02.357 --> 00:19:04.367
it's like (sniffs).
500
00:19:04.367 --> 00:19:05.794
I'm sure you're getting this,
501
00:19:05.794 --> 00:19:06.627
but I don't have a spiritual life
502
00:19:06.627 --> 00:19:07.460
like that anymore.
503
00:19:07.460 --> 00:19:08.371
I don't have a feminist
Yes.
504
00:19:08.371 --> 00:19:09.870
Christian community.
505
00:19:09.870 --> 00:19:11.208
They don't, I don't even know
506
00:19:11.208 --> 00:19:12.206
if they exist anymore (laughs).
507
00:19:12.206 --> 00:19:13.628
So it's like,
Yes.
508
00:19:13.628 --> 00:19:15.298
Those moments, oh!
509
00:19:15.298 --> 00:19:16.631
Were so amazing.
510
00:19:20.926 --> 00:19:22.322
So then years later,
511
00:19:22.322 --> 00:19:24.078
having to like (laughs)
512
00:19:24.078 --> 00:19:25.507
write essays about it
513
00:19:25.507 --> 00:19:27.762
from a theological perspective
514
00:19:27.762 --> 00:19:30.956
for my home church and it felt so vulnerable.
515
00:19:30.956 --> 00:19:33.023
It was something that was so spiritual
516
00:19:33.023 --> 00:19:34.279
and life giving to me.
517
00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:35.569
Now I have to defend it
518
00:19:35.569 --> 00:19:37.302
and try to explain it to them,
519
00:19:37.302 --> 00:19:39.277
and I'm feeling sorry for them too
520
00:19:39.277 --> 00:19:41.667
because they're trying to do their best,
521
00:19:41.667 --> 00:19:43.851
and I understand it does sound
522
00:19:43.851 --> 00:19:46.841
so different from anything they have ever encountered
523
00:19:46.841 --> 00:19:48.578
(laughs), you know?
524
00:19:48.578 --> 00:19:50.001
And then,
525
00:19:50.001 --> 00:19:51.486
so it was just,
526
00:19:51.486 --> 00:19:54.660
yeah, it was just a difficult time in my life.
527
00:19:54.660 --> 00:19:55.802
Oh yeah.
And then, I think,
528
00:19:55.802 --> 00:19:58.351
too, it was hard because
529
00:19:58.351 --> 00:20:01.244
at that point, I was much more,
530
00:20:01.244 --> 00:20:03.135
I was working for that all I freely serve
531
00:20:03.135 --> 00:20:05.184
and I was on there.
532
00:20:05.184 --> 00:20:06.734
I did a lot of leadership in the GLBT Movement
533
00:20:06.734 --> 00:20:08.901
in the Presbyterian Church
534
00:20:10.008 --> 00:20:11.675
and so, I think too,
535
00:20:12.916 --> 00:20:14.478
to have to be a public figure,
536
00:20:14.478 --> 00:20:16.884
I'm just someone who hates conflict.
537
00:20:16.884 --> 00:20:17.878
I mean now in my 40s, I'm like,
538
00:20:17.878 --> 00:20:20.257
well you know, my 20-year-old self, like,
539
00:20:20.257 --> 00:20:21.482
why did she do that?
540
00:20:21.482 --> 00:20:23.010
You know.
Wow.
541
00:20:23.010 --> 00:20:24.014
She loved justice so much
542
00:20:24.014 --> 00:20:25.586
(interviewer laughs)
and she loved the community,
543
00:20:25.586 --> 00:20:26.650
and she loved.
544
00:20:26.650 --> 00:20:27.650
But I think what it was is the community
545
00:20:27.650 --> 00:20:28.652
in the margins.
546
00:20:28.652 --> 00:20:29.676
It's kind of like,
547
00:20:29.676 --> 00:20:32.343
I think of it as kind of like a,
548
00:20:35.545 --> 00:20:37.846
an order, like a Catholic order.
549
00:20:37.846 --> 00:20:39.390
If you think of the Benedictines
550
00:20:39.390 --> 00:20:40.973
or the Franciscans,
551
00:20:41.822 --> 00:20:45.538
like I felt like our band of Presbyterians
552
00:20:45.538 --> 00:20:46.963
were on the margins
553
00:20:46.963 --> 00:20:49.323
and I love them so much I wanted to stay
554
00:20:49.323 --> 00:20:50.156
in that community,
555
00:20:50.156 --> 00:20:53.284
but now, I think fighting for ordination,
556
00:20:53.284 --> 00:20:54.928
now being within it,
557
00:20:54.928 --> 00:20:57.649
I have no connection to the Presbyterian Church anymore.
558
00:20:57.649 --> 00:20:58.727
I don't go to Presbyterian meetings,
559
00:20:58.727 --> 00:21:00.956
I go to church sometimes,
560
00:21:00.956 --> 00:21:03.757
and to think that I fought so hard,
561
00:21:03.757 --> 00:21:05.923
but I think what I was fighting for too
562
00:21:05.923 --> 00:21:10.179
was to stay in that beloved community of outsiders,
563
00:21:10.179 --> 00:21:12.650
so it was so ironic that we were fighting to come in.
564
00:21:12.650 --> 00:21:14.648
I mean, I still,
565
00:21:14.648 --> 00:21:16.827
yeah, some moments I think it was the best thing
566
00:21:16.827 --> 00:21:20.000
I did, and I have a lot of pride
567
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:22.041
for standing up for myself
568
00:21:22.041 --> 00:21:25.458
and for moving queer ordination foreword.
569
00:21:26.648 --> 00:21:30.547
You know how a story can be both and?
570
00:21:30.547 --> 00:21:33.673
It was that and it was very painful,
571
00:21:33.673 --> 00:21:35.090
and I'm wondering
572
00:21:36.143 --> 00:21:37.583
why did I do that (laughs)?
573
00:21:37.583 --> 00:21:38.475
Oh (laughs)!
574
00:21:38.475 --> 00:21:40.024
So anyway.
That's a lot
575
00:21:40.024 --> 00:21:42.072
of bravery for a young woman,
576
00:21:42.072 --> 00:21:43.645
I have to say.
Yeah!
577
00:21:43.645 --> 00:21:45.255
It was, but I think the thing
578
00:21:45.255 --> 00:21:48.005
that I regret most is I feel like
579
00:21:50.890 --> 00:21:51.917
my spiritual life
580
00:21:51.917 --> 00:21:54.928
suffered so much, you know?
581
00:21:54.928 --> 00:21:56.228
That I feel like,
582
00:21:56.228 --> 00:21:58.292
I wonder if I hadn't
583
00:21:58.292 --> 00:22:00.826
gotten so involved in NNPCW
584
00:22:00.826 --> 00:22:02.770
and ordination battle
585
00:22:02.770 --> 00:22:05.588
and if some of that could have been preserved.
586
00:22:05.588 --> 00:22:06.605
You know?
Yeah.
587
00:22:06.605 --> 00:22:08.465
I'm not sure.
Yeah.
588
00:22:08.465 --> 00:22:09.677
I still have a,
589
00:22:09.677 --> 00:22:11.459
I shouldn't say that.
590
00:22:11.459 --> 00:22:12.742
Maybe it's more,
591
00:22:12.742 --> 00:22:13.924
and maybe that's not my spiritual life,
592
00:22:13.924 --> 00:22:15.622
but it's my relationship with Christianity
593
00:22:15.622 --> 00:22:17.313
and my relationship with the church.
594
00:22:17.313 --> 00:22:18.618
Yes.
595
00:22:18.618 --> 00:22:20.307
And in some ways, my spiritual life
596
00:22:20.307 --> 00:22:22.991
to be honest.
Yeah, yeah.
597
00:22:22.991 --> 00:22:26.792
What happened with that ordination process?
598
00:22:26.792 --> 00:22:29.437
So you wrote essays for your home church?
599
00:22:29.437 --> 00:22:31.354
How were they received?
600
00:22:38.578 --> 00:22:42.630
Yeah, I don't think they were received well.
601
00:22:42.630 --> 00:22:44.342
I mean, yeah.
602
00:22:44.342 --> 00:22:46.199
I never felt understood (laughs).
603
00:22:46.199 --> 00:22:47.472
Yes, yeah.
604
00:22:47.472 --> 00:22:48.305
Yeah.
605
00:22:49.883 --> 00:22:51.896
And you were ordained?
606
00:22:51.896 --> 00:22:53.251
I was, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
607
00:22:53.251 --> 00:22:54.989
So it was difficult.
608
00:22:54.989 --> 00:22:56.290
That church lost a lot of membership over it
609
00:22:56.290 --> 00:22:58.944
and there was lots of all (mutters) meetings
610
00:22:58.944 --> 00:23:00.277
and it was very.
611
00:23:01.658 --> 00:23:05.071
That was the most difficult piece.
612
00:23:05.071 --> 00:23:06.517
The Presbyterian piece was less so
613
00:23:06.517 --> 00:23:08.665
because the Milwaukee Presbyterian is pretty progressive,
614
00:23:08.665 --> 00:23:11.165
so it was more my home church,
615
00:23:12.235 --> 00:23:14.794
which was more difficult.
616
00:23:14.794 --> 00:23:15.950
Yeah.
Yeah.
617
00:23:15.950 --> 00:23:17.914
I know some about this,
618
00:23:17.914 --> 00:23:19.775
but could you just fill me in on the piece
619
00:23:19.775 --> 00:23:22.378
about the college, the Presbyterian college?
620
00:23:22.378 --> 00:23:24.850
Just give a little background about that
621
00:23:24.850 --> 00:23:25.990
if you don't mind.
Yeah.
622
00:23:25.990 --> 00:23:27.240
So NNPCW?
Yes.
623
00:23:28.255 --> 00:23:31.264
So it was a division of women's,
624
00:23:31.264 --> 00:23:32.793
of the women's ministry,
625
00:23:32.793 --> 00:23:34.317
the Presbyterian church.
626
00:23:34.317 --> 00:23:36.567
And there was a hired staff
627
00:23:37.620 --> 00:23:40.581
and kind of a leadership committee
628
00:23:40.581 --> 00:23:41.414
of women,
629
00:23:42.571 --> 00:23:45.083
Presbyterian women throughout
630
00:23:45.083 --> 00:23:48.272
the United States from different colleges
631
00:23:48.272 --> 00:23:51.823
and they produced resources and had retreats
632
00:23:51.823 --> 00:23:53.490
and Totty will talk,
633
00:23:54.361 --> 00:23:55.369
Totty wrote.
634
00:23:55.369 --> 00:23:56.374
Totty was in that position
Wow.
635
00:23:56.374 --> 00:23:57.743
And she wrote.
636
00:23:57.743 --> 00:23:59.173
Actually, she wrote (laughs).
637
00:23:59.173 --> 00:24:00.863
Oh, it's such a,
638
00:24:00.863 --> 00:24:02.001
it's, to this day, a beautiful resource,
639
00:24:02.001 --> 00:24:03.928
so I have it (laughs) on my shelf.
640
00:24:03.928 --> 00:24:05.635
She wrote the first one that I think
641
00:24:05.635 --> 00:24:07.895
got us into so much trouble.
642
00:24:07.895 --> 00:24:09.299
You know?
What was it about?
643
00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:10.921
Well, it's this wonderful guide
644
00:24:10.921 --> 00:24:13.498
and you take it out and there will be like,
645
00:24:13.498 --> 00:24:14.702
a discussion of sexuality,
646
00:24:14.702 --> 00:24:15.785
or, you know,
647
00:24:17.654 --> 00:24:20.264
oh, I'm just trying to think of some of the other,
648
00:24:20.264 --> 00:24:22.628
the environment or this thing,
649
00:24:22.628 --> 00:24:24.020
and it would be like, out of a,
650
00:24:24.020 --> 00:24:26.201
you know, discussion.
651
00:24:26.201 --> 00:24:27.614
A little bit about feminist theology,
652
00:24:27.614 --> 00:24:30.010
or maybe a couple of Bible verses
653
00:24:30.010 --> 00:24:31.747
and a little bit of theology
654
00:24:31.747 --> 00:24:33.297
that was influenced by feminist theology
655
00:24:33.297 --> 00:24:35.152
and some activities and discussion questions
656
00:24:35.152 --> 00:24:37.706
and it was just like, a packet that's really usable
657
00:24:37.706 --> 00:24:40.894
and that women could use on their campus.
658
00:24:40.894 --> 00:24:43.927
And I think that was, you know,
659
00:24:43.927 --> 00:24:46.026
and it was very inclusive of GLBT people
660
00:24:46.026 --> 00:24:48.354
and so then what happened was,
661
00:24:48.354 --> 00:24:50.192
they went on major attack.
662
00:24:50.192 --> 00:24:51.826
They called us the prodigal daughters
663
00:24:51.826 --> 00:24:53.334
that would not repent
664
00:24:53.334 --> 00:24:56.046
and the last vestige of Marxism is hanging off
665
00:24:56.046 --> 00:25:00.234
the skirts of NNPCW (laughs).
666
00:25:00.234 --> 00:25:01.455
So there was
667
00:25:01.455 --> 00:25:03.075
the Charlotte assembly.
668
00:25:03.075 --> 00:25:05.141
We were their focus
669
00:25:05.141 --> 00:25:06.377
and it was just me
670
00:25:06.377 --> 00:25:08.607
because I was the,
Wow.
671
00:25:08.607 --> 00:25:10.816
At the time, I was working with Ann Julie,
672
00:25:10.816 --> 00:25:12.648
who was an utter saint in my life.
673
00:25:12.648 --> 00:25:16.835
She was working as the Director of Women's Advocacy
674
00:25:16.835 --> 00:25:18.558
at the church headquarters
675
00:25:18.558 --> 00:25:19.855
and I was her intern
676
00:25:19.855 --> 00:25:21.585
and then another woman
677
00:25:21.585 --> 00:25:23.742
was the intern for NNPCW.
678
00:25:23.742 --> 00:25:26.242
So she and I were really the only two women representing
679
00:25:26.242 --> 00:25:29.050
the NNPCW at the Charlotte Assembly.
680
00:25:29.050 --> 00:25:31.676
And then the Fort Worth Assembly
681
00:25:31.676 --> 00:25:34.139
was kind of another two terribles (laughs).
682
00:25:34.139 --> 00:25:35.473
We went and tried again.
683
00:25:35.473 --> 00:25:38.160
They spent $20,000 on a video
684
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:42.288
trying to sent it to every voting commissioner
685
00:25:42.288 --> 00:25:43.636
about how awful we were,
686
00:25:43.636 --> 00:25:45.609
and it was just such a very small,
687
00:25:45.609 --> 00:25:47.076
I mean, this was such a teeny program,
688
00:25:47.076 --> 00:25:48.714
but I think they wanted to,
689
00:25:48.714 --> 00:25:50.504
we were scapegoated,
690
00:25:50.504 --> 00:25:52.472
saying, "well, look how bad
691
00:25:52.472 --> 00:25:54.305
"the PCUSA is,"
Yeah.
692
00:25:56.457 --> 00:25:58.526
And kind of using us
693
00:25:58.526 --> 00:26:01.144
to get the larger church in trouble,
694
00:26:01.144 --> 00:26:03.052
you know, in some ways,
695
00:26:03.052 --> 00:26:05.927
the larger denomination leadership
696
00:26:05.927 --> 00:26:07.198
and all that.
697
00:26:07.198 --> 00:26:08.615
But it was, yeah.
698
00:26:09.497 --> 00:26:11.661
It was very, very difficult.
699
00:26:11.661 --> 00:26:13.822
So there was a vote to de-fund a protest
700
00:26:13.822 --> 00:26:15.554
and then a vote to?
Refund.
701
00:26:15.554 --> 00:26:17.020
Refund?
Yes, in the Charlotte
702
00:26:17.020 --> 00:26:18.292
Assembly, yeah.
703
00:26:18.292 --> 00:26:21.105
And then what happened to it
704
00:26:21.105 --> 00:26:23.745
after that?
Yeah, so yeah.
705
00:26:23.745 --> 00:26:26.238
And then, I think, at the next assembly,
706
00:26:26.238 --> 00:26:27.893
there was a vote to study it
707
00:26:27.893 --> 00:26:29.675
and that was awful because then,
708
00:26:29.675 --> 00:26:31.118
we had like,
709
00:26:31.118 --> 00:26:33.545
you know, there was like, a committee
710
00:26:33.545 --> 00:26:36.285
and there would be these meetings
711
00:26:36.285 --> 00:26:38.167
where the laymen would come
712
00:26:38.167 --> 00:26:41.963
and we would come and we would have to give testimony
713
00:26:41.963 --> 00:26:43.545
and just all this,
714
00:26:43.545 --> 00:26:44.936
just stuff.
715
00:26:44.936 --> 00:26:46.199
It was really icky.
716
00:26:46.199 --> 00:26:48.330
And so there was a study,
717
00:26:48.330 --> 00:26:50.067
and I think then we were allowed to go on.
718
00:26:50.067 --> 00:26:52.742
They actually asked me to be the chaplain.
719
00:26:52.742 --> 00:26:54.003
I thought it was going to be.
720
00:26:54.003 --> 00:26:55.405
But I told them, I said,
721
00:26:55.405 --> 00:26:56.677
"I would love to be the chaplain."
722
00:26:56.677 --> 00:26:59.117
Once I got ordained,
723
00:26:59.117 --> 00:27:00.254
so it continued.
724
00:27:00.254 --> 00:27:01.812
I don't know if it still continues to this day,
725
00:27:01.812 --> 00:27:03.599
but this was like,
726
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:04.926
I don't know.
727
00:27:04.926 --> 00:27:07.127
This was a while ago now,
728
00:27:07.127 --> 00:27:10.377
but I told them I would be the chaplain
729
00:27:12.264 --> 00:27:15.989
if, that there would be no question
730
00:27:15.989 --> 00:27:17.706
about my sexuality, then.
731
00:27:17.706 --> 00:27:19.637
I'm not going to do this again,
732
00:27:19.637 --> 00:27:20.939
you know (laughs)?
733
00:27:20.939 --> 00:27:22.441
And they said, "Yes, yes, yes."
734
00:27:22.441 --> 00:27:23.914
But the first day was like,
735
00:27:23.914 --> 00:27:25.331
the woman who was
736
00:27:27.019 --> 00:27:28.019
Barbara Dua,
737
00:27:29.298 --> 00:27:32.340
D-U-A, Dua?
I don't know,
738
00:27:32.340 --> 00:27:33.356
describe it to me, yeah.
Barbara Dua.
739
00:27:33.356 --> 00:27:34.970
Yeah, yeah.
The person who is
740
00:27:34.970 --> 00:27:36.120
in her position, I'm forgetting her name.
741
00:27:36.120 --> 00:27:37.259
Yes.
Was calling my phone
742
00:27:37.259 --> 00:27:38.259
and just up.
743
00:27:39.904 --> 00:27:40.902
"You can't say this and you can't say that,"
744
00:27:40.902 --> 00:27:42.154
and I just said no.
745
00:27:42.154 --> 00:27:45.149
So then I had to write the women a note and say,
746
00:27:45.149 --> 00:27:48.586
"I can't operate in this denomination
747
00:27:48.586 --> 00:27:51.427
"with this kind of scrutiny
748
00:27:51.427 --> 00:27:52.885
"and I just don't think,
749
00:27:52.885 --> 00:27:54.135
"just ethically
750
00:27:55.635 --> 00:27:57.593
"and spiritually it's going to be
751
00:27:57.593 --> 00:27:59.631
"something I can do."
752
00:27:59.631 --> 00:28:01.283
So that was disappointing because they were so excited
753
00:28:01.283 --> 00:28:03.442
to have me, and then it was like,
754
00:28:03.442 --> 00:28:06.224
yeah, within a week.
Wow.
755
00:28:06.224 --> 00:28:07.224
So I think
756
00:28:09.113 --> 00:28:10.839
I would have loved to have gotten back involved,
757
00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:13.324
but I didn't want to be,
758
00:28:13.324 --> 00:28:14.241
once again,
759
00:28:15.103 --> 00:28:16.746
the lightning rod (laughs).
760
00:28:16.746 --> 00:28:18.922
I was done doing that, so.
761
00:28:18.922 --> 00:28:21.715
Well, as you look at this backlash
762
00:28:21.715 --> 00:28:25.902
against Reimagining, against the Presbyterian women,
763
00:28:25.902 --> 00:28:28.249
how do you account for it?
764
00:28:28.249 --> 00:28:29.749
What was it about?
765
00:28:31.286 --> 00:28:32.119
Yeah.
766
00:28:39.236 --> 00:28:41.403
Yeah, it's so interesting.
767
00:28:44.897 --> 00:28:46.569
I know, I wish I had.
768
00:28:46.569 --> 00:28:49.406
If you would have asked me this 10 years ago,
769
00:28:49.406 --> 00:28:51.252
I would have had a really articulate answer.
770
00:28:51.252 --> 00:28:52.921
This is more in the middle of it,
771
00:28:52.921 --> 00:28:54.671
you know.
Of course.
772
00:28:56.483 --> 00:28:58.009
Yeah, I think that there,
773
00:28:58.009 --> 00:28:59.009
it was just,
774
00:29:00.802 --> 00:29:02.562
I mean, I just think of misogyny
775
00:29:02.562 --> 00:29:04.312
as a very, very core.
776
00:29:06.330 --> 00:29:07.747
I think there is.
777
00:29:09.878 --> 00:29:13.380
I don't even think it was fear, you know?
778
00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:16.013
At first you think of fear of losing power.
779
00:29:16.013 --> 00:29:18.180
There was some real hatred
780
00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:21.773
within it.
781
00:29:23.274 --> 00:29:24.524
I think that's.
782
00:29:25.926 --> 00:29:28.259
I remember, it was the first
783
00:29:31.179 --> 00:29:34.337
general assembly was the first time
784
00:29:34.337 --> 00:29:35.633
in my whole entire life
785
00:29:35.633 --> 00:29:37.109
I had felt the absence of God.
786
00:29:37.109 --> 00:29:39.137
It was the scariest moment
787
00:29:39.137 --> 00:29:40.847
in my life.
Oh!
788
00:29:40.847 --> 00:29:44.959
And it lasted for like, a half-an-hour,
789
00:29:44.959 --> 00:29:48.376
but I had never experienced so much hate!
790
00:29:50.174 --> 00:29:52.293
Oh!
And in the context,
791
00:29:52.293 --> 00:29:56.126
especially in the context of a faith community
792
00:29:57.779 --> 00:29:58.779
and I still,
793
00:30:01.352 --> 00:30:03.935
yeah, I still don't understand,
794
00:30:04.997 --> 00:30:08.247
yeah, I guess I still don't understand.
795
00:30:09.174 --> 00:30:11.337
I used to, I think, have a little bit more,
796
00:30:11.337 --> 00:30:14.510
and with my ordination, I really found compassion,
797
00:30:14.510 --> 00:30:17.059
I think, for people who didn't understand
798
00:30:17.059 --> 00:30:18.836
and I could get in front of the Presbytery
799
00:30:18.836 --> 00:30:21.952
and there were moments when my heart,
800
00:30:21.952 --> 00:30:26.024
I felt this incredible sense of protectedness
801
00:30:26.024 --> 00:30:29.400
because I felt so much compassion for people.
802
00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:30.676
They'd ask me a nasty question
803
00:30:30.676 --> 00:30:32.194
and I could feel compassion for them,
804
00:30:32.194 --> 00:30:33.789
so I felt protected,
805
00:30:33.789 --> 00:30:34.706
like,
Yes.
806
00:30:35.979 --> 00:30:37.062
Like I had,
807
00:30:38.292 --> 00:30:39.876
you know, like, yeah.
808
00:30:39.876 --> 00:30:41.032
You don't understand me.
809
00:30:41.032 --> 00:30:42.355
There's this divide.
810
00:30:42.355 --> 00:30:44.372
I don't want this divide, you know?
811
00:30:44.372 --> 00:30:45.789
With Reimagining,
812
00:30:49.825 --> 00:30:52.794
it's so much more difficult
813
00:30:52.794 --> 00:30:56.388
for me to have that type of compassion
814
00:30:56.388 --> 00:31:00.072
for those who don't understand (laughs)
815
00:31:00.072 --> 00:31:01.540
because I,
816
00:31:01.540 --> 00:31:05.457
it did seem like it came from such a vile place
817
00:31:08.178 --> 00:31:10.845
and I mean, just patriarchy
818
00:31:10.845 --> 00:31:11.678
at its,
819
00:31:12.596 --> 00:31:15.621
like, at its just fiery, like,
820
00:31:15.621 --> 00:31:16.954
it just sickest,
821
00:31:18.013 --> 00:31:20.260
at the very sickest.
822
00:31:20.260 --> 00:31:23.064
It's like, some things are systemic
823
00:31:23.064 --> 00:31:26.041
and you are just so removed.
824
00:31:26.041 --> 00:31:29.213
The ideology has affected you
825
00:31:29.213 --> 00:31:31.373
or has affected culture or society
826
00:31:31.373 --> 00:31:32.836
and it has tricked down
827
00:31:32.836 --> 00:31:34.410
and you are living it,
828
00:31:34.410 --> 00:31:36.368
you don't know you're living in it.
829
00:31:36.368 --> 00:31:38.368
And you know, this was just,
830
00:31:38.368 --> 00:31:41.221
this was just hatred (laughs)
831
00:31:41.221 --> 00:31:43.471
for women at its very core.
832
00:31:45.613 --> 00:31:47.113
It was just, yeah.
833
00:31:47.976 --> 00:31:48.809
I just,
834
00:31:50.883 --> 00:31:52.674
I can give no excuse (laughs).
835
00:31:52.674 --> 00:31:53.992
You know what I mean?
Yes.
836
00:31:53.992 --> 00:31:55.608
I try so hard to understand.
837
00:31:55.608 --> 00:31:57.629
Maybe this right now is,
838
00:31:57.629 --> 00:31:59.456
I haven't thought about these things.
839
00:31:59.456 --> 00:32:03.333
I haven't really thought about it in a long time.
840
00:32:03.333 --> 00:32:05.862
So it was hatred directed against
841
00:32:05.862 --> 00:32:08.636
organizations and communities that you really cared about
842
00:32:08.636 --> 00:32:11.988
and it sounded like it was also directed personally at you.
843
00:32:11.988 --> 00:32:13.071
Yeah, yeah.
844
00:32:14.738 --> 00:32:15.905
Yeah.
Yeah.
845
00:32:19.351 --> 00:32:20.860
Yeah, it seemed very,
846
00:32:20.860 --> 00:32:22.280
I think, too,
847
00:32:22.280 --> 00:32:24.780
it did seem like there was no,
848
00:32:27.550 --> 00:32:29.023
especially, I think,
849
00:32:29.023 --> 00:32:30.477
because it was a young person.
850
00:32:30.477 --> 00:32:32.017
Usually, how you deal with young people is,
851
00:32:32.017 --> 00:32:33.348
you want to bring them back to the fold.
852
00:32:33.348 --> 00:32:34.816
You know?
Yes.
853
00:32:34.816 --> 00:32:36.375
And we don't,
854
00:32:36.375 --> 00:32:39.615
and I could even see the Conservative argument like,
855
00:32:39.615 --> 00:32:42.782
we could do better for our young women
856
00:32:43.865 --> 00:32:45.886
and articulation of that,
857
00:32:45.886 --> 00:32:47.469
but it wasn't that.
858
00:32:48.477 --> 00:32:50.031
There was just (laughs).
859
00:32:50.031 --> 00:32:51.499
I mean, there was such hatred
860
00:32:51.499 --> 00:32:53.456
and it's probably because
861
00:32:53.456 --> 00:32:57.101
they saw us as something different than young women.
862
00:32:57.101 --> 00:32:59.101
They saw us as, I think,
863
00:32:59.971 --> 00:33:00.969
I don't know, maybe powerful
864
00:33:00.969 --> 00:33:03.087
that we had this.
865
00:33:03.087 --> 00:33:04.610
Maybe it was that we were powerful
866
00:33:04.610 --> 00:33:06.110
and had this power
867
00:33:07.594 --> 00:33:09.130
to change the church
868
00:33:09.130 --> 00:33:12.314
and so they couldn't see us as, you know,
869
00:33:12.314 --> 00:33:13.964
kind of some of,
870
00:33:13.964 --> 00:33:16.108
not, I think, we were most vulnerable,
871
00:33:16.108 --> 00:33:19.563
but a population within the church
872
00:33:19.563 --> 00:33:23.341
that needed, first and foremost to be cared for
873
00:33:23.341 --> 00:33:25.242
and then we can talk about the politics
874
00:33:25.242 --> 00:33:27.538
of what is happening within the,
875
00:33:27.538 --> 00:33:28.739
you know what I mean?
Yes.
876
00:33:28.739 --> 00:33:32.096
It was just,
It was to expel you.
877
00:33:32.096 --> 00:33:33.158
It wasn't to,
878
00:33:33.158 --> 00:33:34.809
is that was it felt like?
Yeah.
879
00:33:34.809 --> 00:33:36.777
Yeah.
That you were dangerous
880
00:33:36.777 --> 00:33:38.173
or?
Yeah (laughs).
881
00:33:38.173 --> 00:33:39.894
Yeah, and we have to get rid of you.
882
00:33:39.894 --> 00:33:40.893
Yeah, I think that is just, yeah.
883
00:33:40.893 --> 00:33:41.726
Yeah.
884
00:33:44.825 --> 00:33:46.330
Yeah.
885
00:33:46.330 --> 00:33:48.051
And I can't, I mean,
886
00:33:48.051 --> 00:33:50.064
and yet, you at least for a while stayed.
887
00:33:50.064 --> 00:33:51.668
You still got ordained.
888
00:33:51.668 --> 00:33:52.768
Yeah, yeah.
889
00:33:52.768 --> 00:33:54.051
What was that coming from?
890
00:33:54.051 --> 00:33:55.411
Where were you?
891
00:33:55.411 --> 00:33:56.902
How did you maintain that kind of strength
892
00:33:56.902 --> 00:33:58.866
and commitment?
893
00:33:58.866 --> 00:34:00.616
Oh yeah, it was in,
894
00:34:01.492 --> 00:34:04.159
it was in the community of women
895
00:34:05.065 --> 00:34:06.880
and the LGBT community
896
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:09.828
that I found so much spiritual life.
897
00:34:09.828 --> 00:34:12.714
Just like Reimagining, we could create that space
898
00:34:12.714 --> 00:34:14.077
for each other, you know?
899
00:34:14.077 --> 00:34:15.612
We're on a treat, on a committee meeting.
900
00:34:15.612 --> 00:34:19.806
We could create those beautiful experiences
901
00:34:19.806 --> 00:34:23.590
for each other along the way, you know?
902
00:34:23.590 --> 00:34:27.673
Which, I think, that was definitely the strength.
903
00:34:29.229 --> 00:34:31.556
And luckily, That All May Freely Serve,
904
00:34:31.556 --> 00:34:35.681
I'm not sure, I wouldn't maybe say that's the other
905
00:34:35.681 --> 00:34:37.794
more like Presbyterians
906
00:34:37.794 --> 00:34:41.435
and Covenant Network, but That All May Freely Serve,
907
00:34:41.435 --> 00:34:44.417
this is the LGBT organization within the church
908
00:34:44.417 --> 00:34:46.150
that I worked within
909
00:34:46.150 --> 00:34:48.866
was just feminist to its very core.
910
00:34:48.866 --> 00:34:50.571
I mean, Lisa Larges and Janie Spar
911
00:34:50.571 --> 00:34:53.033
and so, in some ways,
912
00:34:53.033 --> 00:34:53.866
it was,
913
00:34:58.447 --> 00:35:02.464
there wasn't a distinction between the movements, or.
914
00:35:02.464 --> 00:35:03.297
Yeah.
915
00:35:04.562 --> 00:35:08.186
And so yeah, it was definitely those communities.
916
00:35:08.186 --> 00:35:11.526
Wow, this is really powerful (laughs).
917
00:35:11.526 --> 00:35:13.396
So looking back on it,
918
00:35:13.396 --> 00:35:17.146
in the end, how would you define Reimagining?
919
00:35:19.259 --> 00:35:20.092
Hmm.
920
00:35:23.753 --> 00:35:25.828
It was a historic event
921
00:35:25.828 --> 00:35:27.495
within Protestantism
922
00:35:28.992 --> 00:35:31.603
that awokened a larger public
923
00:35:31.603 --> 00:35:33.270
to feminist theology
924
00:35:34.210 --> 00:35:36.210
and that also gave space
925
00:35:37.292 --> 00:35:40.032
for feminist theology to be lived
926
00:35:40.032 --> 00:35:40.865
in worship
927
00:35:42.537 --> 00:35:45.787
and in the spiritual practice of women.
928
00:35:48.229 --> 00:35:49.062
And yeah.
929
00:35:52.302 --> 00:35:53.428
Yeah, I guess I wouldn't define it
930
00:35:53.428 --> 00:35:55.410
by the backlash at all, you know?
931
00:35:55.410 --> 00:35:57.330
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
932
00:35:57.330 --> 00:35:58.330
That is a great description (laughs).
933
00:35:58.330 --> 00:35:59.551
Better for it.
934
00:35:59.551 --> 00:36:01.538
(interviewer and Eily laugh)
935
00:36:01.538 --> 00:36:02.811
Yeah, and to follow along with that,
936
00:36:02.811 --> 00:36:04.835
so what aspect of Reimagining were most significant
937
00:36:04.835 --> 00:36:06.336
to you and why?
938
00:36:06.336 --> 00:36:07.253
Oh, yeah.
939
00:36:08.410 --> 00:36:09.826
I think I remember that book.
940
00:36:09.826 --> 00:36:11.171
Of the book that we got, too.
941
00:36:11.171 --> 00:36:12.639
I went back to that so often,
942
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:13.970
but I don't have it.
943
00:36:13.970 --> 00:36:14.975
It would be great, too.
944
00:36:14.975 --> 00:36:16.696
Some of the rituals and some of the,
945
00:36:16.696 --> 00:36:18.902
oh, maybe I have it someplace.
946
00:36:18.902 --> 00:36:21.950
The website.
Oh, the website.
947
00:36:21.950 --> 00:36:23.193
Okay.
It will have it, yes.
948
00:36:23.193 --> 00:36:24.898
Yeah.
You're talking about
949
00:36:24.898 --> 00:36:26.016
the programs of the gathering?
Yeah.
950
00:36:26.016 --> 00:36:27.523
Yeah.
Yes.
951
00:36:27.523 --> 00:36:28.849
And I think there was like,
952
00:36:28.849 --> 00:36:29.853
a binder that was,
953
00:36:29.853 --> 00:36:31.883
but I think the ritual
Yes.
954
00:36:31.883 --> 00:36:34.216
That was created was just,
955
00:36:36.841 --> 00:36:38.730
was incredible.
956
00:36:38.730 --> 00:36:40.906
I think ritual is just so important.
957
00:36:40.906 --> 00:36:41.989
I think, too,
958
00:36:51.976 --> 00:36:52.809
yeah.
959
00:36:54.436 --> 00:36:56.769
I mean, I think the theology
960
00:36:57.819 --> 00:37:02.134
around Christology, I think, is super important.
961
00:37:02.134 --> 00:37:04.575
I mean, as a young person, I was so,
962
00:37:04.575 --> 00:37:07.075
it's such an impression on me.
963
00:37:09.111 --> 00:37:12.398
And yeah, I read Nakashima Brock's work.
964
00:37:12.398 --> 00:37:13.481
She was just,
965
00:37:14.823 --> 00:37:16.573
I got exposed to her.
966
00:37:17.498 --> 00:37:18.748
And just, yeah.
967
00:37:19.948 --> 00:37:22.281
She was such an inspiration.
968
00:37:24.540 --> 00:37:25.373
For sure.
969
00:37:29.175 --> 00:37:30.425
And then, yeah.
970
00:37:31.615 --> 00:37:33.192
But then was also such a divide
971
00:37:33.192 --> 00:37:35.012
because it was kind of older women, you know?
972
00:37:35.012 --> 00:37:38.762
I think, for me, it was a mentoring community
973
00:37:39.866 --> 00:37:43.413
and I never felt like an insider.
974
00:37:43.413 --> 00:37:46.475
It's a community I got to be a part of at some points
975
00:37:46.475 --> 00:37:49.090
and then be through Threads
976
00:37:49.090 --> 00:37:51.257
and through GLBT Movement,
977
00:37:52.556 --> 00:37:56.723
then I was able to incorporate and be a part of more.
978
00:38:00.021 --> 00:38:01.021
Yeah.
Yeah.
979
00:38:03.260 --> 00:38:06.716
I think the mentoring component was really important, too.
980
00:38:06.716 --> 00:38:09.962
And did that just happen at the gatherings?
981
00:38:09.962 --> 00:38:11.795
Well, I think it was
982
00:38:14.683 --> 00:38:17.544
a mentoring community, for sure.
983
00:38:17.544 --> 00:38:19.842
I think so often it's not individuals,
984
00:38:19.842 --> 00:38:20.842
right?
Right.
985
00:38:20.842 --> 00:38:24.278
That was so amazing to feel so held,
986
00:38:24.278 --> 00:38:26.489
but then a lot of relationships
987
00:38:26.489 --> 00:38:29.257
because then I moved to Louisville, Kentucky
988
00:38:29.257 --> 00:38:31.267
and the church headquarters
Ah!
989
00:38:31.267 --> 00:38:34.092
Right after that, so I graduated college in '97
990
00:38:34.092 --> 00:38:36.918
and then I spent the next two years in Louisville,
991
00:38:36.918 --> 00:38:39.689
so all of the relationships with the women
992
00:38:39.689 --> 00:38:41.858
who were involved in Louisville level.
993
00:38:41.858 --> 00:38:43.801
Oh!
So it was like,
994
00:38:43.801 --> 00:38:44.884
I got to know
995
00:38:46.811 --> 00:38:48.843
the Minnesota women,
996
00:38:48.843 --> 00:38:51.908
but then it was really those women
997
00:38:51.908 --> 00:38:56.104
then those next to years that became so important
998
00:38:56.104 --> 00:38:57.937
to me as well, and so.
999
00:38:59.356 --> 00:39:01.706
Had you met them at the Reimagining gathering?
1000
00:39:01.706 --> 00:39:03.741
No.
Yeah, okay.
1001
00:39:03.741 --> 00:39:06.471
Because they were, yeah.
Yes.
1002
00:39:06.471 --> 00:39:07.685
They were probably there.
Yes.
1003
00:39:07.685 --> 00:39:08.518
But I hadn't realized that my life
1004
00:39:08.518 --> 00:39:09.865
was going to take me to Louisville.
1005
00:39:09.865 --> 00:39:11.210
What were you doing in Louisville again?
1006
00:39:11.210 --> 00:39:13.637
I was the intern for women's advocacy.
1007
00:39:13.637 --> 00:39:15.888
That was my first job out of college.
1008
00:39:15.888 --> 00:39:17.239
Okay.
Yeah.
1009
00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:18.156
Exciting.
1010
00:39:20.070 --> 00:39:21.769
Did you involvement in Reimagining
1011
00:39:21.769 --> 00:39:24.372
change your perspective on feminist theology
1012
00:39:24.372 --> 00:39:25.539
or the church?
1013
00:39:29.208 --> 00:39:31.533
Yeah, almost definitely.
1014
00:39:31.533 --> 00:39:32.366
Yes.
1015
00:39:35.275 --> 00:39:38.108
I mean, feminist theology in that,
1016
00:39:39.181 --> 00:39:40.014
yeah.
1017
00:39:41.018 --> 00:39:43.829
See it as a living, breathing thing
1018
00:39:43.829 --> 00:39:45.960
and in my whole,
1019
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:49.349
my whole journey was going to be to Union
1020
00:39:49.349 --> 00:39:51.547
in New York and to study with all these,
1021
00:39:51.547 --> 00:39:53.487
you know, Beverly.
1022
00:39:53.487 --> 00:39:55.332
And I did get into New York,
1023
00:39:55.332 --> 00:39:57.035
and I was actually living in Morning Side Heights.
1024
00:39:57.035 --> 00:39:58.637
Oh!
Like two weeks
1025
00:39:58.637 --> 00:39:59.975
before I was to go to Union
1026
00:39:59.975 --> 00:40:01.225
and study with,
1027
00:40:02.243 --> 00:40:03.853
you know, Beverly Hurst.
1028
00:40:03.853 --> 00:40:05.096
That was my dream.
1029
00:40:05.096 --> 00:40:06.013
But then I,
1030
00:40:07.621 --> 00:40:09.038
yeah, I couldn't.
1031
00:40:10.745 --> 00:40:12.625
I kind of got scared financially
1032
00:40:12.625 --> 00:40:15.140
because I didn't get any scholarships
1033
00:40:15.140 --> 00:40:16.145
and so I was like.
1034
00:40:16.145 --> 00:40:19.034
So the last minute, McCormick offered me
1035
00:40:19.034 --> 00:40:20.801
this big scholarship
1036
00:40:20.801 --> 00:40:23.468
and I decided to change courses.
1037
00:40:28.846 --> 00:40:30.184
But yeah,
1038
00:40:30.184 --> 00:40:33.111
I think that realizing that these weren't just words
1039
00:40:33.111 --> 00:40:35.071
on a page, that these were.
1040
00:40:35.071 --> 00:40:36.709
And I think that's,
1041
00:40:36.709 --> 00:40:41.124
when you read about Latin-American liberation theology,
1042
00:40:41.124 --> 00:40:43.031
it's so, like,
1043
00:40:43.031 --> 00:40:45.352
it's so contextualized
1044
00:40:45.352 --> 00:40:46.769
in a struggle for
1045
00:40:47.970 --> 00:40:51.720
actual like, physical liberation and freedom.
1046
00:40:54.083 --> 00:40:58.000
And it's being created by people on the margins
1047
00:40:59.265 --> 00:41:00.348
and I think I
1048
00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:02.912
like seeing,
1049
00:41:02.912 --> 00:41:05.848
Reimaginging help put me in a community
1050
00:41:05.848 --> 00:41:10.015
where I understood that feminist theology was the same.
1051
00:41:12.183 --> 00:41:15.339
It is being created by women
1052
00:41:15.339 --> 00:41:19.047
within the context not of their spiritual lives.
1053
00:41:19.047 --> 00:41:20.875
And even as academics,
1054
00:41:20.875 --> 00:41:22.911
Beverly, she's brilliant
1055
00:41:22.911 --> 00:41:27.219
and she's not just writing feminist theology.
1056
00:41:27.219 --> 00:41:29.052
She is a practitioner.
1057
00:41:30.007 --> 00:41:32.959
It comes from both a spiritual
1058
00:41:32.959 --> 00:41:34.959
and a theological space.
1059
00:41:36.056 --> 00:41:38.389
I think, too, being able to,
1060
00:41:39.494 --> 00:41:42.578
coming from Macalester being exposed to it
1061
00:41:42.578 --> 00:41:44.667
and then being able to see,
1062
00:41:44.667 --> 00:41:48.498
incorporate it into the lives of women.
1063
00:41:48.498 --> 00:41:50.679
What was different about Reimagining?
1064
00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:53.670
How did Reimagining do that?
1065
00:41:53.670 --> 00:41:54.503
Yeah.
1066
00:41:56.888 --> 00:41:59.187
Well, my only other experience
1067
00:41:59.187 --> 00:42:01.187
of shared religious life
1068
00:42:03.671 --> 00:42:06.588
had been, Threads, I mean, I guess.
1069
00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:08.693
And some
1070
00:42:09.694 --> 00:42:10.743
that was worship,
1071
00:42:10.743 --> 00:42:12.171
is Protestant worship.
1072
00:42:12.171 --> 00:42:15.277
So I mean like (laughs).
1073
00:42:15.277 --> 00:42:16.892
I had no idea
1074
00:42:16.892 --> 00:42:19.972
about the possibilities that I could live outside
1075
00:42:19.972 --> 00:42:21.305
of those bounds.
1076
00:42:24.456 --> 00:42:26.086
It just was,
1077
00:42:26.086 --> 00:42:27.586
yeah, it was just.
1078
00:42:28.449 --> 00:42:30.415
I mean now, as a minister,
1079
00:42:30.415 --> 00:42:32.235
I write a wedding,
1080
00:42:32.235 --> 00:42:35.732
I write someone's wedding ceremony
1081
00:42:35.732 --> 00:42:38.044
and I've got all this freedom
1082
00:42:38.044 --> 00:42:40.065
and the couple has all this freedom
1083
00:42:40.065 --> 00:42:41.860
and it's just this creative process.
1084
00:42:41.860 --> 00:42:43.148
(interviewer laughs)
1085
00:42:43.148 --> 00:42:44.964
And it's just like, wonderful thinking about
1086
00:42:44.964 --> 00:42:48.640
people's spiritual lives and creating this beautiful
1087
00:42:48.640 --> 00:42:50.810
experience that expresses that.
1088
00:42:50.810 --> 00:42:54.267
That was just totally outside of my realm of possibility,
1089
00:42:54.267 --> 00:42:56.133
I think.
Yeah.
1090
00:42:56.133 --> 00:42:57.466
To have, yeah.
1091
00:42:59.101 --> 00:43:02.008
And I think, too, inclusive language
1092
00:43:02.008 --> 00:43:03.925
was just so incredible.
1093
00:43:08.262 --> 00:43:11.726
This notion that God didn't have a gender.
1094
00:43:11.726 --> 00:43:13.309
All of these things
1095
00:43:14.228 --> 00:43:18.891
I could process them academically and mentally,
1096
00:43:18.891 --> 00:43:21.846
but to be able to live into them
1097
00:43:21.846 --> 00:43:23.786
was just, you know,
1098
00:43:23.786 --> 00:43:27.953
Reimagining was probably my first exposure of that.
1099
00:43:29.885 --> 00:43:31.747
Yeah, yeah.
1100
00:43:31.747 --> 00:43:33.120
That is great.
1101
00:43:33.120 --> 00:43:35.451
So in the end, what do you think
1102
00:43:35.451 --> 00:43:38.618
is the greatest legacy of Reimagining?
1103
00:43:42.498 --> 00:43:44.181
You know, it is hard.
1104
00:43:44.181 --> 00:43:45.790
It's been hard.
1105
00:43:45.790 --> 00:43:49.285
When I was a chaplain, it was hard being a chaplain
1106
00:43:49.285 --> 00:43:50.980
(laughs) and my students not caring
1107
00:43:50.980 --> 00:43:52.351
about inclusive, like, women.
1108
00:43:52.351 --> 00:43:53.743
And not caring about inclusive language
1109
00:43:53.743 --> 00:43:55.474
and not feeling like we need to do any
1110
00:43:55.474 --> 00:43:56.936
women's retreats (laughs).
1111
00:43:56.936 --> 00:44:00.686
In some ways, it's like, how can this happen?
1112
00:44:04.604 --> 00:44:06.187
How can this be so,
1113
00:44:10.560 --> 00:44:12.033
yeah, and so now,
1114
00:44:12.033 --> 00:44:14.210
like now, working at this engagement center,
1115
00:44:14.210 --> 00:44:16.753
I haven't been really like,
1116
00:44:16.753 --> 00:44:18.364
you know,
1117
00:44:18.364 --> 00:44:19.626
I'm not really up
1118
00:44:19.626 --> 00:44:22.665
kind of where feminist theology has gone, you know (laughs)?
1119
00:44:22.665 --> 00:44:25.415
Sure (laughs)!
1120
00:44:28.120 --> 00:44:29.817
How would you say where,
1121
00:44:29.817 --> 00:44:31.024
you mentioned you're not that connected
1122
00:44:31.024 --> 00:44:32.803
to the Presbyterian Church.
1123
00:44:32.803 --> 00:44:34.378
Do you feel,
1124
00:44:34.378 --> 00:44:36.064
how would you compare where it is now
1125
00:44:36.064 --> 00:44:37.781
to where it was then
1126
00:44:37.781 --> 00:44:39.732
in terms of inclusive language,
1127
00:44:39.732 --> 00:44:41.821
feminist theology and liturgy?
1128
00:44:41.821 --> 00:44:43.779
Do you have a sense of that?
1129
00:44:43.779 --> 00:44:45.880
I don't, not denomination-wide
1130
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:50.047
because I've always been at churches where that is lost.
1131
00:44:51.849 --> 00:44:53.970
So I don't know.
1132
00:44:53.970 --> 00:44:57.291
But I do think, I mean, obviously,
1133
00:44:57.291 --> 00:45:00.340
you can use the GLBT example
1134
00:45:00.340 --> 00:45:03.673
as (laughs) the church has like,
1135
00:45:03.673 --> 00:45:05.090
massively shifted
1136
00:45:06.594 --> 00:45:10.761
and there is going to have to be a watershed moment
1137
00:45:13.151 --> 00:45:15.234
where people were exposed
1138
00:45:16.251 --> 00:45:20.418
to the great variety of Christian practice and belief
1139
00:45:21.527 --> 00:45:23.566
and that was like,
1140
00:45:23.566 --> 00:45:26.520
I think Reimagining in some ways was that first exposure
1141
00:45:26.520 --> 00:45:28.628
and it was painful,
1142
00:45:28.628 --> 00:45:30.005
but once we got,
1143
00:45:30.005 --> 00:45:32.422
I think it got less and less,
1144
00:45:33.637 --> 00:45:35.046
it was so painful
1145
00:45:35.046 --> 00:45:36.345
for both sides, apparently.
1146
00:45:36.345 --> 00:45:38.342
I want to believe it was actually painful
1147
00:45:38.342 --> 00:45:40.388
for these people who were so angry.
1148
00:45:40.388 --> 00:45:42.632
I want to believe that it was painful for both sides,
1149
00:45:42.632 --> 00:45:44.713
but I think it was less so.
1150
00:45:44.713 --> 00:45:47.888
Then it was like, okay, how are we going to,
1151
00:45:47.888 --> 00:45:49.339
we're going to fight this out,
1152
00:45:49.339 --> 00:45:52.741
but it wasn't going to be as violent, you know (laughs)?
1153
00:45:52.741 --> 00:45:54.145
So maybe it's.
1154
00:45:54.145 --> 00:45:56.256
And in some ways,
1155
00:45:56.256 --> 00:45:57.339
it was, yeah.
1156
00:45:58.430 --> 00:46:00.486
It was kind of like,
1157
00:46:00.486 --> 00:46:03.069
not just for feminism, but for.
1158
00:46:04.581 --> 00:46:07.509
And again, it's so hard for me to understand
1159
00:46:07.509 --> 00:46:11.426
how the Church at large experienced Reimagining
1160
00:46:12.965 --> 00:46:16.506
because I was so involved and knowledgeable.
1161
00:46:16.506 --> 00:46:17.887
Like, how?
1162
00:46:17.887 --> 00:46:22.199
But I think, at least in the Presbyterian Church,
1163
00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:23.199
in some ways
1164
00:46:24.703 --> 00:46:27.762
it was like a coming-out moment.
1165
00:46:27.762 --> 00:46:29.909
Women coming out of their hiding
1166
00:46:29.909 --> 00:46:32.742
and being able to be who they are.
1167
00:46:33.740 --> 00:46:34.954
And I thinK now,
1168
00:46:34.954 --> 00:46:37.598
that is maybe the legacy
1169
00:46:37.598 --> 00:46:39.416
that we do that more within the context
1170
00:46:39.416 --> 00:46:41.083
of our church lives.
1171
00:46:47.128 --> 00:46:48.607
I have to think that,
1172
00:46:48.607 --> 00:46:52.462
I know that feminist theology might not,
1173
00:46:52.462 --> 00:46:53.795
and kind of your
1174
00:46:55.919 --> 00:46:59.169
average Joe church might not make it to
1175
00:47:03.255 --> 00:47:04.941
the pulpit as such,
1176
00:47:04.941 --> 00:47:08.146
but because its being taught so now,
1177
00:47:08.146 --> 00:47:12.313
I think so across the board in Presbyterian seminaries
1178
00:47:13.442 --> 00:47:15.693
that I think pastors,
1179
00:47:15.693 --> 00:47:17.391
even your most moderate pastor now
1180
00:47:17.391 --> 00:47:19.954
has a range and can work within it
1181
00:47:19.954 --> 00:47:20.954
rather than,
1182
00:47:22.338 --> 00:47:25.171
so there is just so much exposure.
1183
00:47:30.541 --> 00:47:33.951
So I have to think that that makes an impact on women
1184
00:47:33.951 --> 00:47:34.951
in the pews.
1185
00:47:35.968 --> 00:47:40.308
That even a mail minister can even understand
1186
00:47:40.308 --> 00:47:41.558
God in new ways
1187
00:47:42.868 --> 00:47:44.969
and the Christ event
1188
00:47:44.969 --> 00:47:48.114
and can, even if he's not there,
1189
00:47:48.114 --> 00:47:49.531
at least reach in
1190
00:47:50.389 --> 00:47:53.861
and he can create a container for that now
1191
00:47:53.861 --> 00:47:57.009
because he's, hopefully, at least at McCormick,
1192
00:47:57.009 --> 00:48:00.659
he would have read, you know (laughs)?
1193
00:48:00.659 --> 00:48:03.242
His share of feminist theology.
1194
00:48:04.138 --> 00:48:08.879
I know Reimagining, as painful as the backlash was,
1195
00:48:08.879 --> 00:48:11.942
it did put feminist theology on the map
1196
00:48:11.942 --> 00:48:13.109
in the academy
1197
00:48:14.444 --> 00:48:16.611
and I think in the Church.
1198
00:48:18.394 --> 00:48:19.399
Yes, yeah.
1199
00:48:19.399 --> 00:48:22.796
Well, and to end, getting close to the end here,
1200
00:48:22.796 --> 00:48:24.193
I have one other big question,
1201
00:48:24.193 --> 00:48:26.232
and that is, what does Reimagining mean today?
1202
00:48:26.232 --> 00:48:28.080
By that, I don't meant just the conference or the community,
1203
00:48:28.080 --> 00:48:31.069
but what needs to be reimaginged today?
1204
00:48:31.069 --> 00:48:32.045
Oh, yeah, yeah.
1205
00:48:32.045 --> 00:48:33.353
In church, spirituality,
1206
00:48:33.353 --> 00:48:36.253
however you want to define that.
1207
00:48:36.253 --> 00:48:37.086
Yeah.
1208
00:48:38.778 --> 00:48:39.778
Oh, so much.
1209
00:48:41.337 --> 00:48:44.552
Yeah, I think worship needs to be reimagined.
1210
00:48:44.552 --> 00:48:48.157
I love church and I just don't like worship (laughs).
1211
00:48:48.157 --> 00:48:50.759
It's maybe because I know how good it can be.
1212
00:48:50.759 --> 00:48:52.139
Yeah.
1213
00:48:52.139 --> 00:48:54.726
How does it need to be reimagined?
1214
00:48:54.726 --> 00:48:55.976
I don't know.
1215
00:48:57.226 --> 00:49:00.921
I would like church to be more like
1216
00:49:00.921 --> 00:49:04.257
doing spiritual direction together.
1217
00:49:04.257 --> 00:49:06.209
You know?
Mm-hmm.
1218
00:49:06.209 --> 00:49:08.428
Where it's more interactional,
1219
00:49:08.428 --> 00:49:11.011
yeah, there's more interaction,
1220
00:49:11.923 --> 00:49:14.506
more sharing, more feeling like
1221
00:49:16.933 --> 00:49:18.016
we are, yeah.
1222
00:49:19.683 --> 00:49:21.516
On a journey together.
1223
00:49:25.196 --> 00:49:28.042
Yeah, so much needs to be reimagined.
1224
00:49:28.042 --> 00:49:31.326
I think I get pretty excited about,
1225
00:49:31.326 --> 00:49:34.836
I think, the relationship between Evangelicals
1226
00:49:34.836 --> 00:49:36.562
and Protestants,
1227
00:49:36.562 --> 00:49:38.612
and I think that's in the midst of being reimaginig
1228
00:49:38.612 --> 00:49:41.112
and I'm so excited about that.
1229
00:49:42.916 --> 00:49:46.416
I think that there's a lot of energy there
1230
00:49:48.139 --> 00:49:49.878
and I met a lot of Evangelicals
1231
00:49:49.878 --> 00:49:52.394
and I think that there is just,
1232
00:49:52.394 --> 00:49:54.295
and I think in the Catholic Church.
1233
00:49:54.295 --> 00:49:56.625
I may need to say that.
1234
00:49:56.625 --> 00:50:00.521
I think with the Pope, I think there is
1235
00:50:00.521 --> 00:50:03.049
a lot of Reimagining happening in the Church
1236
00:50:03.049 --> 00:50:06.216
right now, which is really incredible.
1237
00:50:10.003 --> 00:50:12.014
And just the right issues.
1238
00:50:12.014 --> 00:50:14.303
I think right now, for me,
1239
00:50:14.303 --> 00:50:18.041
what needs to be reimagined societally
1240
00:50:18.041 --> 00:50:21.213
is race relations and the environment
1241
00:50:21.213 --> 00:50:23.495
are the ones that I think
1242
00:50:23.495 --> 00:50:25.412
are most pressing need.
1243
00:50:27.975 --> 00:50:32.306
I have one last, very specific question.
1244
00:50:32.306 --> 00:50:33.310
(Eily laughs)
1245
00:50:33.310 --> 00:50:34.875
We are working on a Reimagining website
1246
00:50:34.875 --> 00:50:36.423
and we're just,
1247
00:50:36.423 --> 00:50:37.749
and part of it will be historical.
1248
00:50:37.749 --> 00:50:38.994
We'll be putting up,
1249
00:50:38.994 --> 00:50:40.690
digitizing conferences, putting up resources,
1250
00:50:40.690 --> 00:50:44.898
but we also want to include current resources and things.
1251
00:50:44.898 --> 00:50:46.410
And I'm just wondering if you have ideas
1252
00:50:46.410 --> 00:50:48.423
about what would be helpful,
Mm.
1253
00:50:48.423 --> 00:50:50.138
What would be suggestions?
1254
00:50:50.138 --> 00:50:53.055
How we could reach people, content,
1255
00:50:54.109 --> 00:50:55.251
both of those things.
1256
00:50:55.251 --> 00:50:56.250
Any of those things.
1257
00:50:56.250 --> 00:50:57.250
Any suggestions.
1258
00:50:57.250 --> 00:50:58.667
Yeah!
1259
00:50:58.667 --> 00:51:01.069
What would be useful to you or the people you know?
1260
00:51:01.069 --> 00:51:03.236
Oh, it's so interesting.
1261
00:51:06.921 --> 00:51:08.909
Some sort of networking device.
1262
00:51:08.909 --> 00:51:10.484
Yeah.
It's so funny.
1263
00:51:10.484 --> 00:51:13.676
I just was, just the other day,
1264
00:51:13.676 --> 00:51:15.380
was writing down names of women
1265
00:51:15.380 --> 00:51:16.893
that I needed to call to try to create
1266
00:51:16.893 --> 00:51:18.980
a woman's spirituality group now
1267
00:51:18.980 --> 00:51:20.975
and (laughs) I haven't had one.
1268
00:51:20.975 --> 00:51:22.725
This idea of finding,
1269
00:51:23.884 --> 00:51:25.992
you think would be easier.
1270
00:51:25.992 --> 00:51:28.616
I'm a clergy but I'm not that connected.
1271
00:51:28.616 --> 00:51:29.449
Yeah.
1272
00:51:30.453 --> 00:51:32.870
And I think yeah, a way of,
1273
00:51:35.401 --> 00:51:38.242
yeah, if there's any way of connecting people,
1274
00:51:38.242 --> 00:51:39.825
like-minded people,
1275
00:51:41.585 --> 00:51:43.182
or yeah.
1276
00:51:43.182 --> 00:51:44.636
I think simple liturgies
1277
00:51:44.636 --> 00:51:46.303
that could be used.
1278
00:51:46.303 --> 00:51:47.852
I think a lot of the Reimagining stuff
1279
00:51:47.852 --> 00:51:50.953
is because they're trying to teach theology through it.
1280
00:51:50.953 --> 00:51:52.223
Yeah.
It's pretty,
1281
00:51:52.223 --> 00:51:53.564
if I remember,
1282
00:51:53.564 --> 00:51:54.931
it's pretty thick.
Yes.
1283
00:51:54.931 --> 00:51:56.849
Because it needed to be.
1284
00:51:56.849 --> 00:51:57.850
It's teaching through the word,
1285
00:51:57.850 --> 00:51:59.142
which is so awesome,
1286
00:51:59.142 --> 00:52:00.411
but I think some,
1287
00:52:00.411 --> 00:52:01.970
that would be really great
1288
00:52:01.970 --> 00:52:03.759
to have like, some grab and go,
1289
00:52:03.759 --> 00:52:05.588
just the spirit
1290
00:52:05.588 --> 00:52:06.421
of things.
1291
00:52:10.399 --> 00:52:11.945
Yeah.
1292
00:52:11.945 --> 00:52:13.335
I think the most important thing
1293
00:52:13.335 --> 00:52:14.585
is the history.
1294
00:52:17.504 --> 00:52:18.337
Yeah.
1295
00:52:19.176 --> 00:52:20.785
Because a lot of, yeah.
1296
00:52:20.785 --> 00:52:22.176
And I think of,
1297
00:52:22.176 --> 00:52:23.534
yeah, a lot of women
1298
00:52:23.534 --> 00:52:26.034
who were involved have passed.
1299
00:52:26.913 --> 00:52:27.902
Yep.
1300
00:52:27.902 --> 00:52:32.040
So something that maybe honors their legacy.
1301
00:52:32.040 --> 00:52:32.873
Exactly.
1302
00:52:33.803 --> 00:52:36.869
This has been very rich and really wonderful.
1303
00:52:36.869 --> 00:52:39.094
Is there anything you'd like to add?
1304
00:52:39.094 --> 00:52:43.598
Something we haven't discussed that you would want to say?
1305
00:52:43.598 --> 00:52:46.239
Yeah, I can't think of anything,
1306
00:52:46.239 --> 00:52:47.805
but maybe I'll email you, too.
1307
00:52:47.805 --> 00:52:48.783
Good!
Because you brought back
1308
00:52:48.783 --> 00:52:49.881
some really good memories
1309
00:52:49.881 --> 00:52:51.669
Good.
That I have,
1310
00:52:51.669 --> 00:52:53.408
like the milk and honey ritual
1311
00:52:53.408 --> 00:52:55.268
and the biting of the apple.
1312
00:52:55.268 --> 00:52:56.749
I haven't thought about that in years.
1313
00:52:56.749 --> 00:52:59.582
Oh, wonderful.
Yeah, thank you.
1314
00:53:00.682 --> 00:53:02.182
Well, thank you.
1315
00:53:03.226 --> 00:53:04.476
Turn this off.