WEBVTT
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Okay, we're rolling.
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Okay, good morning.
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Good morning Peter.
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We are very grateful to you for participating
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in the Witness to Guantanamo Project today.
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We invite you to speak of your experiences
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and involvement with issues of Guantanamo.
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We are hoping to provide you with an opportunity
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to tell your story in your own words.
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We are creating an archive of stories,
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so that people in America and around the world
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will have a better opportunity to understand what happened.
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And hopefully your experiences will contribute to that.
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Future generations must know what happened in Guantanamo
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and the impact of Guantanamo internationally.
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And by telling your story you contributing to history.
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We are very grateful for your coming today to speak to us
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and your willingness to tell us your story.
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At any time you'd like to take a break,
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please let us know.
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And if you do say something that you'd like us to review
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we can certainly remove it or review it.
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And we'd like to begin by asking you your name and your age
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and date of birth, and some background about yourself.
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So I'm Nicholas Henin in French
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you would say Nicola Inno.
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So as you can get from my accent, I'm obviously French.
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I'm just about to turn 40.
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I was born on the 7th of November, 1975
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and I am a freelance journalist.
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I started journalism in 99
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so a bit over 15 years now.
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And your education?
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And I have a master in history
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and international relations.
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This master, I met it in Cairo, and it was
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about the international relations in the Middle East.
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And I specialized very early on in the Middle East
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because I started to travel in the region.
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As soon as I turned 18, as soon as I was allowed to go
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for vacations without my family, I just bought a plane
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a very cheap plane ticket and I traveled actually to Syria.
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And so this is where and how I discovered the region
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and very early as well as I was still a student
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in literature,
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I started selling journalism pieces,
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I mean on a freelance basis to papers,
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to French papers.
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After this master of history,
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I started journalism in Paris.
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And did you work independently
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throughout these 15 years?
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I started in a small press agency
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in Paris for three years.
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And by the end, by summer actually of 2002,
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I saw coming an American invasion of Iraq
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and I decided, okay
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I have to be there because this is a history making.
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And then I left my job
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and I concentrated all my time.
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I focused on trying to get the Iraqi visa
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which was extremely difficult to get at that time.
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And even though I wasn't a staff reporter for any paper
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I got one just because for two months
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I only lobbied and looked for a way to get this Iraqi visa
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while any staff reporter, okay,
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will have a nice visit card,
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but well didn't have so much amount of time
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to spend just for visa.
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So I arrived among the very first in November, 2002
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in Baghdad with a visa valid for two weeks.
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And I decided to overstay
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until the American released me.
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And this is actually the funny part of the story.
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I was probably the only one truly released basis
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in American invasion because the Iraqi people were nothing
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but released were not racist at all.
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But myself, yes, I would have been put to jail
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if they would have found me with such a long overstate.
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The Iraqis would have put--
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No the Iraqis, So I could not leave the country
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because I could not cross any border
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with the entry stamp pens visa that I had in my passport.
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How long did you stay in Iraq that time?
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Well, until after almost six months.
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And do you speak other languages
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besides French and English?
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I speak some Arabic, but little.
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I lost a lot of it and I speak German.
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{peter] Huh. And so after you left Iraq,
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what happened then back in 03?
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I came back to France for some time
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and then I went back to Iraq
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and I was correspondent in Baghdad
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for two years for actually, well, anyone wanted to hire me
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but I ended as a correspondent for the French public radio,
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Radio France, which well took most of my time.
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And that was virtually a full-time job.
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And so at that time, I was mostly working for Radio France
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and for the Newsmakers in LaPointe
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Can you take us up to the time you were--
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I studied in Iraq for some time afterwards when
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Iraq became too dangerous, I moved to Jordan,
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afterwards I kept moving bu I met my wife,
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with my wife so that was a bit of a personal story in that.
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And when the Arab spring started
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I covered it, of course intensively.
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In different countries?
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Yeah, in all of the countries
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except for Tunisia that I missed
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and I would have loved to cover it
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but wow, I had no chance.
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And I was actually the first TV reporter
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to enter Syria illegally after the beginning
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of the revolution, as early as September of 2011
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I crossed the Syrian border with middlers from Turkey.
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And I went down to homes.
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So I crossed a big part of Syria
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and I kept covering this revolution that ended up
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in the civil war, as it developed
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and during my fifth trip that was in June, 2013,
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I went to Raca, Raca is a city in Eastern Syria.
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That is now one of the two defacto capital towns,
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capital cities of the Islamic state.
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And at that time Raca just fell.
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I mean, the Syrian regime lost its grip and on Raca.
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It was bitten by coalition of Jihadi groups.
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The Islamic state did not exist at that time.
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It was Jabhat al-Nusra and there were some competing groups,
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must have been Islamic that took the control
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of the city.
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And that was the first,
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because Syria is a federal state.
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That was the first federal capital city to be lost
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by the Syrian regime.
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And I wanted to see, because to administrate a countryside
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is not that difficult because people will always find a way
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to cope while they can rely much more
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on the local resources, but to administrative city
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that's a different story.
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And I wanted to see how rebels were administrating
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a large city after they take control of it.
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And that was the first aim of this report, after 10 days,
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I was abducted.
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At that point
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ISIS still didn't exist when you were abducted.
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Actually on the morning of my abduction I read the news
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and the internet that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi
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so the self-proclaimed Calif of the Islamic state
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told Ayman Al-Zawahiri of Al Qaeda to go to hell.
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So he told him I have basically, well, it just summarizes
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the message, but it was like, I go on my own.
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I'm fed up with you.
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So that was actually, I was abducted
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on the day of the divorce pretty much.
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And so on the day the Islamic state
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was started to exist definitively as an independent entity.
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Before we go into the abduction
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did you know that could happen,
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that you were people abducted
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before you, were you afraid at all?
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Were you aware?
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Very few cases were public
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because that was a problem with this abductions.
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Many of the cases were kept under blackout,
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the only cases I heard of were for James Folly
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and for my two fellow French journalist,
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Anza had been taken in a region where there were a lot
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of small groups competing with a lot of math.
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Yes.
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So I would thinking that they had been taken
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just by small rogue groups
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only looking for money and with no political agenda.
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And that was actually my mistake.
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My first mistake was to ignore
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that there could have been some other objections
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that were kept secret.
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And to believe that the Jihadi rebels,
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that the Jihadi groups in Syria had only a political agenda
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and focused on the regime and that's especially in the west
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because I met some Jihadists
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including Alipo a year before.
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And I mean I'm not going to say
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that they were friendly to me, but they were like, okay
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we don't want to deal with Western press.
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While other rebel groups were very keen
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at embedding us and taking us
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with them to report on and to make reports with them
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and on them.
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So you felt safe at that point?
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Yes. Pretty much.
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Were you alone?
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I left alone and while in Iraq I met another friend
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journalist and photographer named Pietto Res
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and we became friends
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and he was taken a few hours after me.
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And so maybe you could describe
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how you were abducted, how that happened.
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Well, you don't need any imagination
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or just go to your imagination.
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What does an abduction look like?
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It's just like in a movie, there's a car that breaks,
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stops right in front of you in the street,
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in the middle of the city
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and guys with their face covered
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under baklavas and with the Kalashnikov,
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jump on you, grab you, take you, poof,
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10 seconds you're done.
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You had no 401 and you were just in the street?
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No, nothing.
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And did they say who they were?
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Just bullshit.
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They never said their name.
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And they did anything when they abducted you
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or they just grabbed you?
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No.
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So what were you thinking?
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I was thinking like that
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It was, yeah,
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it was gangsters.
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I realized they were gangsters at the first second.
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It just took me few days to realize
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that there were a Islamic state.
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And then I realized that Islamic state were gangsters.
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And how did you realize they were Islamic state?
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They tell you?
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Yeah.
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After I ran away, I just escaped on the third day
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and I broke the bars of my cell and I ran in the desert
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for the night and they took me back
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very already in the morning.
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And they took me back to the same place
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and then they punished me a bit and they told me
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during the punishments that they were Mujahideen
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as the Islamic state.
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When you escaped did you know,
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were you still in the same town?
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Yeah. No, it was in a prison but between Mojis desert.
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And did you know where you were
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when you were running away?
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Did you know the area.
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Not much.
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And they went looking for you
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or they just happened to find you?
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Did they go looking for you?
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No, they were just lucky.
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I thought I had been taken by a small group
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and that the core of the Islamic groups
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running the city were still harnessed.
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And I even thought that I had to go
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to the headquarters of the group in Raca
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and to say hello, dressed I would like to notice,
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but some rogue elements of your groups did that to me.
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And that's really bad.
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And I would like you to punish them.
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Yeah, it's laughable now.
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So then could you tell us what happened
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after they recaptured you and then--
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I don't want to go into details.
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In terms of how you.
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After a couple of weeks, I was moved along with Pierra
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that I didn't know until then, that he had been taken too.
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I was moved to Alepo
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and there I met with many other hostages
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in the course of the summer of 2013, then I met people
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like David Haynes had been murdered,
267
00:17:35.553 --> 00:17:39.040
Jon, the two other French journalist.
268
00:17:39.040 --> 00:17:44.040
I also met with Daniel Ray, Danish photographer
269
00:17:44.150 --> 00:17:45.800
who has been released afterwards.
270
00:17:46.890 --> 00:17:51.890
I also met with James Foley and John Candy
271
00:17:53.130 --> 00:17:56.503
and we are put altogether in the same jail from this point.
272
00:17:59.063 --> 00:18:02.220
And two days after Steven Sotloff is abducted
273
00:18:03.520 --> 00:18:05.373
he joins our set as well.
274
00:18:06.650 --> 00:18:09.510
And everyone at that point understood
275
00:18:09.510 --> 00:18:11.723
ISIS was in control.
276
00:18:13.690 --> 00:18:18.527
Yeah, it wasn't clear yet to which extent it was ISIS
277
00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:25.750
or the international,
278
00:18:25.750 --> 00:18:29.790
some subgroups of Jabhat al-Nusra.
279
00:18:29.790 --> 00:18:31.723
So the Al-Qaeda affiliate.
280
00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:37.600
So for us, we were somehow in the hands of Al Qaeda
281
00:18:37.600 --> 00:18:41.520
and we realized that it was even worse than that.
282
00:18:43.151 --> 00:18:46.340
And the reason why we're interviewing you
283
00:18:46.340 --> 00:18:49.130
is because of the connection to Guantanamo.
284
00:18:49.130 --> 00:18:53.443
So when did you start feeling like there was a connection?
285
00:18:56.980 --> 00:18:57.813
Actually,
286
00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:07.920
there was among the jailers, our jailers.
287
00:19:09.760 --> 00:19:13.060
Some people, you have to understand
288
00:19:13.060 --> 00:19:15.070
that this is still an ongoing story.
289
00:19:15.070 --> 00:19:16.180
They are still at the time
290
00:19:16.180 --> 00:19:18.323
of where we are recording this interview.
291
00:19:19.870 --> 00:19:24.870
They are still holding one hostage I know of
292
00:19:26.090 --> 00:19:31.090
namely John Cantlie and apparently
293
00:19:31.900 --> 00:19:34.153
some others I didn't meet,
294
00:19:35.390 --> 00:19:40.390
but well so it's difficult for me to go deep into details
295
00:19:41.870 --> 00:19:44.660
of the jailers
296
00:19:44.660 --> 00:19:48.760
or because I don't want to jeopardize of course.
297
00:19:48.760 --> 00:19:52.230
And I think that is still ongoing
298
00:19:52.230 --> 00:19:57.230
but I think I can still tell you,
299
00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:01.120
is that among my jailers
300
00:20:01.120 --> 00:20:06.120
there was someone that was later nicknamed Jihad John
301
00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:15.680
and he with others
302
00:20:17.410 --> 00:20:22.410
had in mind to somehow marrow Guantanamo.
303
00:20:31.130 --> 00:20:35.800
He's aim was to take revenge
304
00:20:36.860 --> 00:20:41.860
of Guantanamo by doing exactly the same thing.
305
00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:48.480
So grabbing more or less innocent people were killed
306
00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:54.550
and then let them pay the price
307
00:20:54.550 --> 00:20:57.773
for what their government has done.
308
00:20:58.690 --> 00:21:03.690
So this is what was insane.
309
00:21:04.040 --> 00:21:08.600
And when I got the connection with you
310
00:21:10.180 --> 00:21:13.770
through Murad Bencherali, was a French former detainee
311
00:21:13.770 --> 00:21:14.603
of Guantanamo.
312
00:21:15.760 --> 00:21:20.760
And it happened some, I think just some weeks
313
00:21:21.370 --> 00:21:26.370
after my release that I heard his story from his mouth.
314
00:21:26.970 --> 00:21:30.960
And I realized this is crazy because
315
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:35.960
what we both of us experienced are the two ends
316
00:21:36.650 --> 00:21:38.873
of the very same crazy machine.
317
00:21:41.427 --> 00:21:46.427
And we have been taken out of the normal world by people,
318
00:21:49.950 --> 00:21:54.950
by mad people who want to take revenge on something
319
00:21:57.530 --> 00:22:00.033
but aren't the bad people and in a bad way.
320
00:22:01.430 --> 00:22:06.430
So just as well, Guantanamo has been made to take revenge
321
00:22:09.370 --> 00:22:10.363
on 911,
322
00:22:12.990 --> 00:22:15.750
this abduction enterprise
323
00:22:15.750 --> 00:22:18.490
I was part of along with the two dozens
324
00:22:18.490 --> 00:22:23.490
of Western hostages, was made to take revenge on
325
00:22:27.812 --> 00:22:31.893
the war on terror and the Western intervention
326
00:22:33.210 --> 00:22:36.810
in the middle east.
327
00:22:36.810 --> 00:22:41.810
I want to stress as I'm talking about that of course
328
00:22:43.010 --> 00:22:45.180
we do not have to believe this
329
00:22:45.180 --> 00:22:49.193
because just like for Guantanamo, this is just a pretext.
330
00:22:50.317 --> 00:22:54.923
I mean, when Jihadi John appears on camera
331
00:22:55.920 --> 00:23:00.920
with James folly, kneeling down in the Syrian desert
332
00:23:02.370 --> 00:23:07.167
and Jihadi John says something like,
333
00:23:07.167 --> 00:23:11.127
"Obama remove your troops and stop intervening in Syria
334
00:23:11.127 --> 00:23:15.200
"or I killed him" or threatened to kill the next one.
335
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:19.123
I mean, he knows very well the result of this movie,
336
00:23:20.230 --> 00:23:23.700
he knows very well, that this murder
337
00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:28.700
will conduct to even more Western or American intervention
338
00:23:29.860 --> 00:23:31.610
in this conflict.
339
00:23:31.610 --> 00:23:32.960
And even more strikes.
340
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:37.870
What he wants really truly is deeper intervention
341
00:23:37.870 --> 00:23:40.730
and escalation is a conflict.
342
00:23:40.730 --> 00:23:42.380
So when these people pretend
343
00:23:42.380 --> 00:23:44.730
that they're taking revenge and that they want,
344
00:23:45.613 --> 00:23:48.730
on the Western intervention and as they want it stop,
345
00:23:48.730 --> 00:23:53.610
they are just lying, what they want an Armageddon.
346
00:23:53.610 --> 00:23:57.840
They just want a no end escalation of the conflict
347
00:23:57.840 --> 00:24:00.290
because they believe in a clash of civilizations.
348
00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:02.957
How do you know that?
349
00:24:02.957 --> 00:24:05.828
Through their literature
350
00:24:05.828 --> 00:24:09.161
and through the references to especially
351
00:24:12.639 --> 00:24:15.639
the Hadith, the verses in the Sunnah
352
00:24:20.192 --> 00:24:23.280
is that is about the Town of Debek
353
00:24:23.280 --> 00:24:26.970
because they believe that the battle
354
00:24:26.970 --> 00:24:30.050
of the end of the world would happen in Syria.
355
00:24:30.050 --> 00:24:35.050
And will confront very large coalition
356
00:24:35.320 --> 00:24:40.320
of Western armies against a very large coalition
357
00:24:40.410 --> 00:24:42.750
with Muslims coming from all over world.
358
00:24:42.750 --> 00:24:45.470
And this is precisely what is happening.
359
00:24:45.470 --> 00:24:47.240
And this is something that,
360
00:24:48.866 --> 00:24:51.240
is that the game that we Westerners are playing
361
00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:54.443
which is totally insane because we are shooting in our foot.
362
00:24:56.903 --> 00:24:58.080
So did you know that
363
00:24:58.080 --> 00:25:00.580
at that time that he expressed that to you
364
00:25:00.580 --> 00:25:03.023
or this is how you observed it later?
365
00:25:13.105 --> 00:25:15.330
They put us after some time
366
00:25:15.330 --> 00:25:20.330
and what they wanted to be a model prison.
367
00:25:21.840 --> 00:25:22.690
So with
368
00:25:27.600 --> 00:25:28.743
CCTVs,
369
00:25:29.950 --> 00:25:34.343
with uniforms, orange uniforms,
370
00:25:35.180 --> 00:25:39.673
with identity numbers written on the orange jumpsuit.
371
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:46.260
And this is basically where the only time
372
00:25:46.260 --> 00:25:49.823
when they feed us properly, because they were model,
373
00:25:52.513 --> 00:25:53.346
they wanted to show to us that they were the official
374
00:26:01.690 --> 00:26:04.393
jail administration off the Islamic state.
375
00:26:06.670 --> 00:26:08.433
They wanted to play state like.
376
00:26:08.433 --> 00:26:10.210
And did they say to you
377
00:26:10.210 --> 00:26:11.690
you're wearing an orange jumpsuit
378
00:26:11.690 --> 00:26:13.620
because this is Guantanamo?
379
00:26:13.620 --> 00:26:14.823
Or do they say?
380
00:26:14.823 --> 00:26:16.090
Yes.
381
00:26:16.090 --> 00:26:18.050
And they did they say to you essentially
382
00:26:18.050 --> 00:26:19.990
this is revenge for Guantanamo.
383
00:26:19.990 --> 00:26:22.303
Is that how they explained it to you?
384
00:26:26.290 --> 00:26:31.140
They told us things like, well, you are guilty
385
00:26:31.140 --> 00:26:36.140
because you either journalists or hard workers
386
00:26:39.031 --> 00:26:44.031
are on the frontline of the war of terror
387
00:26:46.410 --> 00:26:48.760
of the clash of civilization,
388
00:26:48.760 --> 00:26:53.760
because you are the people shaping the public opinion
389
00:26:55.420 --> 00:26:57.040
of your country.
390
00:26:57.040 --> 00:27:02.040
So yes, you're telling us that you are not responsible
391
00:27:03.220 --> 00:27:05.260
for the duties of your government,
392
00:27:05.260 --> 00:27:10.260
but you as a people who shaped the public opinion
393
00:27:11.290 --> 00:27:15.240
that elected is this government that did that.
394
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:18.080
So you are even more responsible
395
00:27:18.080 --> 00:27:20.363
that actual fighters with weapons.
396
00:27:22.250 --> 00:27:26.053
So you especially deserve punishment.
397
00:27:31.420 --> 00:27:34.390
And the many references to drone wars.
398
00:27:38.610 --> 00:27:41.740
So the drone strikes, especially in Yemen
399
00:27:41.740 --> 00:27:44.583
they were very much influenced by Anua Aulaki.
400
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:51.883
So this American origin Jihadi
401
00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:57.313
was killed by a drone strike in Yemen.
402
00:27:58.937 --> 00:28:01.130
And they were also very much inspired
403
00:28:01.130 --> 00:28:03.033
by the Iraqi insurgency.
404
00:28:03.950 --> 00:28:07.600
And I came to the conclusion
405
00:28:07.600 --> 00:28:12.513
that the Islamic state is the result
406
00:28:13.670 --> 00:28:18.370
of an intervention on one hand and a non intervention
407
00:28:18.370 --> 00:28:19.670
on the other.
408
00:28:19.670 --> 00:28:22.793
It's a result of the American invasion of Iraq.
409
00:28:24.030 --> 00:28:26.737
That was the source of Al-Qaeda in Iraq
410
00:28:30.060 --> 00:28:33.310
because Al-Qaeda was not in Iraq before the invasion
411
00:28:33.310 --> 00:28:35.640
as everyone knows in the US
412
00:28:40.355 --> 00:28:42.280
and the abandon of the Syrians
413
00:28:43.490 --> 00:28:45.750
after the start the revolution
414
00:28:45.750 --> 00:28:48.230
because they received no help, no support,
415
00:28:48.230 --> 00:28:50.870
because there was no intervention in Syria.
416
00:28:50.870 --> 00:28:52.920
And this is what is crazy by the way
417
00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:54.723
with international politics.
418
00:28:55.690 --> 00:28:59.330
Especially when you look at the issue of,
419
00:28:59.330 --> 00:29:00.690
as the chemical weapons
420
00:29:01.770 --> 00:29:04.090
because basically Iraq was invaded
421
00:29:05.320 --> 00:29:08.560
after false acquisitions of having chemical weapons
422
00:29:08.560 --> 00:29:12.280
but where chemical weapons are being used
423
00:29:12.280 --> 00:29:13.670
on the face of the world.
424
00:29:13.670 --> 00:29:16.190
And with everyone's knowledge
425
00:29:16.190 --> 00:29:20.200
nothing happened, when the intervention would have been
426
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:21.660
for the sake of the people
427
00:29:21.660 --> 00:29:24.060
and not for the sake of some imperialism,
428
00:29:24.060 --> 00:29:25.233
then there is nothing.
429
00:29:27.300 --> 00:29:31.650
These two fundamental to the very same extent are
430
00:29:37.940 --> 00:29:39.850
the origins of the Islamic state
431
00:29:39.850 --> 00:29:43.960
and contributed to the Islamic state
432
00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:46.140
was at a very similar level.
433
00:29:46.140 --> 00:29:49.606
And this is, I mean, some people sometime criticize me
434
00:29:49.606 --> 00:29:53.653
and tell me, oh you're just like another crusader,
435
00:29:54.682 --> 00:29:57.093
you wanted a Westwind Vitoria, no way,
436
00:29:58.540 --> 00:30:00.883
or you wanted,
437
00:30:02.650 --> 00:30:05.720
in Iraq it was good to intervene.
438
00:30:05.720 --> 00:30:08.040
I mean, you can say the same intervention is done.
439
00:30:08.040 --> 00:30:12.300
Non intervention is because I believe to the same level.
440
00:30:12.300 --> 00:30:15.057
And that it was the same logic that creates intervention.
441
00:30:15.057 --> 00:30:18.340
And the non intervention are the same result
442
00:30:18.340 --> 00:30:20.250
and produce the same cost.
443
00:30:20.250 --> 00:30:23.183
Did you understand that when you were a hostage?
444
00:30:24.886 --> 00:30:27.990
It was a good point during this captivity
445
00:30:27.990 --> 00:30:30.790
is that I had a lot of time to think.
446
00:30:30.790 --> 00:30:34.927
And yes, and by the way this reflections
447
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:42.040
as a basis of a book I have written after wars,
448
00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:44.690
which is not a book about my time in captivity,
449
00:30:44.690 --> 00:30:47.020
but book about, well that's a reflection
450
00:30:47.020 --> 00:30:49.510
on the region in general
451
00:30:49.510 --> 00:30:51.300
and on the causes for the rise
452
00:30:51.300 --> 00:30:55.370
of this Islamic state and particular and this book
453
00:30:55.370 --> 00:30:58.083
by the way will be released in English this fall,
454
00:31:00.083 --> 00:31:00.916
this winter.
455
00:31:00.916 --> 00:31:01.749
And did you have this conversation
456
00:31:01.749 --> 00:31:03.460
with any of your captors.
457
00:31:03.460 --> 00:31:06.200
Very little, because they were close to that
458
00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:08.723
then it's just like,
459
00:31:13.280 --> 00:31:15.620
oh how do you call someone
460
00:31:15.620 --> 00:31:19.078
who believes in plots, completist?
461
00:31:19.078 --> 00:31:20.770
Conspirator?
462
00:31:20.770 --> 00:31:22.920
A conspiracist, yes.
463
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:27.920
So Jihadis are like members of a sect or comparatorists.
464
00:31:31.840 --> 00:31:34.904
Conspirators or conspiracy theorists.
465
00:31:34.904 --> 00:31:38.950
Yeah. They believe in conspiracies.
466
00:31:38.950 --> 00:31:43.950
That means that they live their vision of the world.
467
00:31:46.840 --> 00:31:51.623
What the German nicely call Velten Siobhan,
468
00:31:52.650 --> 00:31:57.650
is consistent it in itself.
469
00:31:58.820 --> 00:32:03.820
So they see a code and a reason for every action.
470
00:32:04.110 --> 00:32:06.790
There are logic, they are not crazy.
471
00:32:06.790 --> 00:32:10.000
They have a logic, they're consistent,
472
00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:13.750
but they just live in a model, in a world
473
00:32:13.750 --> 00:32:16.733
that is a bit parallel.
474
00:32:25.786 --> 00:32:27.950
It's very difficult to have a grip on them
475
00:32:28.790 --> 00:32:32.210
and to bring them to the real world
476
00:32:32.210 --> 00:32:37.210
and to explain to them that, no, they are not what they are.
477
00:32:40.860 --> 00:32:45.860
Their fight does not produce the effect that they pretend
478
00:32:47.600 --> 00:32:52.240
and that because most of them have good faith.
479
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:56.410
I mean, they truly believe they are very genuine,
480
00:32:56.410 --> 00:33:00.160
they truly believe that they are in Syria to help the people
481
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:02.780
and that they are fighting for the good
482
00:33:02.780 --> 00:33:04.920
and that all the rest is evil.
483
00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:06.830
I mean, they're not evil.
484
00:33:06.830 --> 00:33:11.830
I mean, the enemy is always stupid.
485
00:33:12.260 --> 00:33:15.959
He believes that he is the enemy while he is.
486
00:33:15.959 --> 00:33:17.920
(Narrator chuckles)
487
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:22.190
I mean, if you want to understand a war
488
00:33:22.190 --> 00:33:26.300
you have to just imagine what your enemy think.
489
00:33:26.300 --> 00:33:31.300
And we believe that Islamic state is the evil.
490
00:33:31.700 --> 00:33:32.533
Right?
491
00:33:32.533 --> 00:33:35.273
As they believe that the rest of the world is.
492
00:33:37.660 --> 00:33:40.780
So it's very difficult to have to have a discussion
493
00:33:40.780 --> 00:33:42.133
on this issues with them,
494
00:33:44.009 --> 00:33:47.897
because was very arithmetic to
495
00:33:51.690 --> 00:33:53.773
logical arguments.
496
00:33:54.780 --> 00:33:57.160
So the fact that you were French,
497
00:33:57.160 --> 00:33:59.700
if they come, they thought of Guantanamo
498
00:33:59.700 --> 00:34:03.213
since you a French, why would they tie you into Guantanamo
499
00:34:03.213 --> 00:34:04.830
with the Americans?
500
00:34:04.830 --> 00:34:09.250
Well, France was not a part of the Iraqi invasion
501
00:34:09.250 --> 00:34:13.350
but it's still part of the war on terror
502
00:34:13.350 --> 00:34:16.350
as French president at that time, Jacques Chirac
503
00:34:16.350 --> 00:34:20.320
was the first head of state to go to New York after 911,
504
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:23.380
for instance, to bring support
505
00:34:23.380 --> 00:34:26.270
and to witness support to the American people.
506
00:34:26.270 --> 00:34:28.283
So we are still on eyes.
507
00:34:29.399 --> 00:34:30.550
They see it obviously
508
00:34:32.025 --> 00:34:36.763
and therefore we are common enemies to them.
509
00:34:39.230 --> 00:34:43.680
So, but what helped us, because some people
510
00:34:44.763 --> 00:34:49.660
in our group of hostages have been extremely badly treated.
511
00:34:57.904 --> 00:35:02.540
I don't want to go with details and names
512
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:08.010
especially because some have been killed.
513
00:35:08.010 --> 00:35:11.040
And I don't want to add pain
514
00:35:12.479 --> 00:35:16.320
to the pain of the loss to their relatives.
515
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:21.320
And some had been relieved.
516
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:24.950
And it's up to them to talk
517
00:35:24.950 --> 00:35:28.820
about what's happened through, but yes,
518
00:35:28.820 --> 00:35:33.820
some of us in the group have been through actual torture
519
00:35:34.300 --> 00:35:38.433
and sometime in a very intense way,
520
00:35:42.150 --> 00:35:47.110
we the French have probably been relatively protected
521
00:35:47.110 --> 00:35:52.110
because most of our endeavors were
522
00:35:57.410 --> 00:36:01.680
very much inspired by the Iraqian Surgency.
523
00:36:01.680 --> 00:36:06.220
So that was better protection on the French somehow
524
00:36:06.220 --> 00:36:10.390
even though, I mean, it was extremely relative
525
00:36:10.390 --> 00:36:14.080
but there was not the same amount
526
00:36:14.080 --> 00:36:18.380
of animosity towards us than towards
527
00:36:18.380 --> 00:36:22.160
as especially the American and the British.
528
00:36:22.160 --> 00:36:24.210
So they did make a distinction.
529
00:36:25.450 --> 00:36:26.500
On a marginal level.
530
00:36:26.500 --> 00:36:27.333
Yes.
531
00:36:28.690 --> 00:36:30.510
You might not wanna answer this and that's fine,
532
00:36:30.510 --> 00:36:31.343
but--
533
00:36:31.343 --> 00:36:33.973
I mean, we were their enemy, but not their arch enemies.
534
00:36:35.380 --> 00:36:36.590
Right.
535
00:36:36.590 --> 00:36:38.885
And they, so they were sophisticated enough
536
00:36:38.885 --> 00:36:40.340
to make that distinction.
537
00:36:40.340 --> 00:36:42.990
Definitely, is that extremely politicized.
538
00:36:42.990 --> 00:36:47.650
I mean, a conspiracionist will spend his nights
539
00:36:47.650 --> 00:36:49.633
on his computer reading.
540
00:36:51.040 --> 00:36:55.230
I mean, news,
541
00:36:55.230 --> 00:37:00.230
well, this kind of we call it in French re-information.
542
00:37:01.460 --> 00:37:03.540
I don't know if it makes any meaning in English
543
00:37:03.540 --> 00:37:08.540
or for an American viewer but it's, re-information in France
544
00:37:11.430 --> 00:37:16.430
is a theory that says that what is in the mainstream media
545
00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:24.040
is crap is based voluntarily
546
00:37:24.040 --> 00:37:28.550
by journalists who have under any pressure
547
00:37:31.453 --> 00:37:36.120
usually because of foreign stare, sometimes US or Israel
548
00:37:38.700 --> 00:37:41.300
or as the Gulf states or whatever
549
00:37:41.300 --> 00:37:46.300
and that they have to deliver the real message.
550
00:37:46.910 --> 00:37:49.773
You have the same thing, of course in the US,
551
00:37:54.950 --> 00:37:58.290
people who believe in corporations conspiracies
552
00:37:59.410 --> 00:38:01.250
will be extremely politicized
553
00:38:02.150 --> 00:38:05.180
in a wrong way with a wrong vision.
554
00:38:05.180 --> 00:38:08.310
But it is typically someone who reads a lot
555
00:38:09.248 --> 00:38:10.473
and informing himself a lot on the world affairs.
556
00:38:16.850 --> 00:38:17.683
When you mentioned Israel
557
00:38:17.683 --> 00:38:21.388
did they bring Israel up in these conversations?
558
00:38:21.388 --> 00:38:24.960
A bit, but yeah, a bit, but not as much
559
00:38:26.948 --> 00:38:31.730
as the US especially
560
00:38:31.730 --> 00:38:36.210
and well, the US and the UK and say,
561
00:38:36.210 --> 00:38:38.420
we're definitely their arch enemies
562
00:38:38.420 --> 00:38:41.440
mostly because some of the shallows were British nationals
563
00:38:42.630 --> 00:38:47.453
and had a very specific animosity towards Britain.
564
00:38:51.544 --> 00:38:52.980
And also because of, yeah,
565
00:38:52.980 --> 00:38:57.193
their relationship with Iraqi insurgency, which was yeah.
566
00:38:58.530 --> 00:39:01.400
Targeted specifically as Americans
567
00:39:02.740 --> 00:39:05.330
When they, and I know you don't wanna describe it
568
00:39:05.330 --> 00:39:06.350
and we don't need to hear it
569
00:39:06.350 --> 00:39:10.060
but when they did harsh treatment or torture of people
570
00:39:10.060 --> 00:39:12.790
did they ever say we're doing this particular thing
571
00:39:12.790 --> 00:39:15.263
because it's what Guantanamo does.
572
00:39:18.220 --> 00:39:21.503
I will tell about waterboarding.
573
00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:26.983
Few of my former cellmates have been waterboarded.
574
00:39:33.630 --> 00:39:37.100
And this was when they did that
575
00:39:38.300 --> 00:39:41.130
they did that because of Guantanamo.
576
00:39:41.130 --> 00:39:43.993
And they spoke of Guantanamo.
577
00:39:47.070 --> 00:39:50.770
I cannot go into details because no one was waterboarded
578
00:39:50.770 --> 00:39:51.963
at the time I was,
579
00:39:53.470 --> 00:39:57.590
well, at the time we were sharing a cell
580
00:39:58.490 --> 00:40:03.490
so it was mostly before and apparently a bit
581
00:40:03.980 --> 00:40:08.933
after my release for some of my cellmates I left behind.
582
00:40:12.490 --> 00:40:13.323
And that was specifically admirer of Guantanamo.
583
00:40:20.160 --> 00:40:22.210
This is what they wanted to do.
584
00:40:22.210 --> 00:40:24.940
Say they wanted to marrow Guantanamo
585
00:40:26.090 --> 00:40:31.090
to say to take revenge.
586
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.597
And what is amazing is that they marrowed
587
00:40:37.160 --> 00:40:42.160
it so well is that even marrowed it's mistake
588
00:40:42.370 --> 00:40:47.370
namely doing bad things to the wrong people
589
00:40:50.210 --> 00:40:55.210
because as you must have seen since you started your project
590
00:40:55.650 --> 00:40:59.543
many of Guantanamo's inmates were innocent.
591
00:41:00.790 --> 00:41:05.790
Just like, I believe that no one in my group of hostages
592
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:12.080
deserve to be there.
593
00:41:12.080 --> 00:41:15.600
And as the opposite in this group
594
00:41:15.600 --> 00:41:17.950
we all decided to go to Syria.
595
00:41:17.950 --> 00:41:20.340
None of us was making good money going into Syria.
596
00:41:20.340 --> 00:41:23.390
None of us, it's not for,
597
00:41:23.390 --> 00:41:28.390
we didn't go to Syria to make glory or to make a fortune.
598
00:41:31.340 --> 00:41:32.970
We have been to Syria
599
00:41:32.970 --> 00:41:37.970
because either being hard workers or journalists
600
00:41:38.770 --> 00:41:43.400
we had some experience, some knowledge of the region
601
00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:48.400
and a lot of sympathy for the people in the region.
602
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:56.180
And we did like what I still do by the way.
603
00:41:56.180 --> 00:41:57.600
But we weren't,
604
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:04.490
I mean someone who is a racist
605
00:42:05.631 --> 00:42:08.763
or an Islamophobe,
606
00:42:09.938 --> 00:42:13.293
we did not go to Syria to report on the insurgency,
607
00:42:14.334 --> 00:42:18.360
on the revolution or to help the local population.
608
00:42:21.250 --> 00:42:26.250
And if someone would actually no one deserves
609
00:42:26.420 --> 00:42:27.460
to be taken hostage
610
00:42:27.460 --> 00:42:30.610
but if someone would deserve to be taken hostage
611
00:42:31.740 --> 00:42:33.990
it would rather be this kind of people
612
00:42:33.990 --> 00:42:36.070
racist or Islamophobic.
613
00:42:36.070 --> 00:42:41.010
I mean, if they pretend to fight racism or Islamophobia
614
00:42:41.010 --> 00:42:43.448
because this is one of their main argument
615
00:42:43.448 --> 00:42:48.448
to enlist new people, to come to and fight in Syria
616
00:42:52.010 --> 00:42:53.933
but they actually favored them.
617
00:42:55.890 --> 00:42:59.990
Islamophobia and jihadism are the two faces
618
00:42:59.990 --> 00:43:01.400
of the same coin.
619
00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:05.810
So its just like two rats running and running in a cage.
620
00:43:05.810 --> 00:43:09.970
And they need them both to feed to move
621
00:43:09.970 --> 00:43:10.843
and to fill it.
622
00:43:13.692 --> 00:43:16.100
So, because the more Islamophobia you have
623
00:43:16.100 --> 00:43:20.010
in the west, the more Jihadist will be able
624
00:43:20.010 --> 00:43:23.673
to convince young Muslims, oh, you're marginalized.
625
00:43:26.519 --> 00:43:28.310
You are not welcoming in your society.
626
00:43:28.310 --> 00:43:31.740
Come we can provide you with a nice environment
627
00:43:31.740 --> 00:43:33.410
to live your life as a Muslim.
628
00:43:33.410 --> 00:43:38.310
And the other way the more you have a violence
629
00:43:38.310 --> 00:43:41.290
and war and extremism
630
00:43:41.290 --> 00:43:45.850
the more it will fuel Islamophobia in our countries.
631
00:43:45.850 --> 00:43:50.142
So they need them and we cannot fight only one.
632
00:43:50.142 --> 00:43:53.353
If we want to fight one, we have to,
633
00:43:56.374 --> 00:44:00.150
well to consider both and to face them both parallel,
634
00:44:00.150 --> 00:44:03.293
we have to tackle them in the same move.
635
00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:06.850
I wanna go back to that
636
00:44:06.850 --> 00:44:09.220
but I just want to ask you before I forget
637
00:44:09.220 --> 00:44:13.060
did they also say that aids work is also
638
00:44:13.060 --> 00:44:15.420
in the forefront in terms of sending their message
639
00:44:15.420 --> 00:44:18.150
even though they were there to help the people?
640
00:44:18.150 --> 00:44:23.150
Yes, because, and by the way it's not totally wrong.
641
00:44:23.247 --> 00:44:27.690
I mean, it's not only out of humanitarian concern
642
00:44:27.690 --> 00:44:32.270
that a government will decide to fund an aid program.
643
00:44:32.270 --> 00:44:37.210
I mean, USAID or equivalent government bodies
644
00:44:37.210 --> 00:44:41.700
in other countries are part of soft power
645
00:44:41.700 --> 00:44:43.103
what is called soft power.
646
00:44:43.940 --> 00:44:48.940
So to that extent, there are not totally wrong
647
00:44:50.200 --> 00:44:54.483
because yes, when you deliver aid to a country,
648
00:44:56.335 --> 00:44:58.950
it's not only out of humanitarian concerns
649
00:44:58.950 --> 00:45:03.603
it's also part of your political influence worldwide.
650
00:45:05.050 --> 00:45:09.123
But as this being said, it's totally insane.
651
00:45:10.870 --> 00:45:12.110
Of course.
652
00:45:12.110 --> 00:45:16.410
And I want to strengthen that to believe
653
00:45:16.410 --> 00:45:21.410
that an individual, a humanitarian aid worker is an agent
654
00:45:23.550 --> 00:45:27.800
of influence when he goes to a country on assignment,
655
00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:32.800
for an NGO to help at the individual level
656
00:45:34.970 --> 00:45:39.062
it is purely a humanitarian concern.
657
00:45:39.062 --> 00:45:41.978
It does not see himself
658
00:45:41.978 --> 00:45:46.978
as someone bringing a message from a government, of course.
659
00:45:50.270 --> 00:45:53.761
And why did they wanna engage you in conversation
660
00:45:53.761 --> 00:45:54.594
and educate you
661
00:45:54.594 --> 00:45:58.253
and perhaps get you to convert to the message.
662
00:46:00.465 --> 00:46:05.465
We had limited, well, only limited exchanges with them.
663
00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:13.840
They did not specifically tried to convert
664
00:46:14.540 --> 00:46:18.030
to Islam to make us convert to Islam
665
00:46:21.270 --> 00:46:26.270
and for some, well for those of us who did convert,
666
00:46:31.470 --> 00:46:33.330
especially in the hierarchy of the Islamic state
667
00:46:33.330 --> 00:46:37.140
were a bit more disturbed by this conversion
668
00:46:37.140 --> 00:46:41.580
because it's even less, it's even more difficult
669
00:46:41.580 --> 00:46:46.580
to justify what they were doing on us since,
670
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:48.450
well, some of us were Muslims
671
00:46:49.380 --> 00:46:54.380
but this only enlightens the little care that these people
672
00:46:55.850 --> 00:46:58.423
have of their own religion,
673
00:47:01.630 --> 00:47:06.630
it just like we had in the last days a visit of the pope,
674
00:47:08.700 --> 00:47:12.863
the Catholic Pope in the US and actually,
675
00:47:14.240 --> 00:47:17.140
well, most of the people in the Bible belt
676
00:47:17.140 --> 00:47:19.570
will disagree with the Pope's messages
677
00:47:22.660 --> 00:47:26.150
because many people in the Bible belt
678
00:47:26.150 --> 00:47:31.150
while to may view at least betray the message of the Christ.
679
00:47:40.032 --> 00:47:42.810
When you spoke to the other people
680
00:47:42.810 --> 00:47:44.150
who were hostage with you
681
00:47:44.150 --> 00:47:46.790
did others have the same insights you did
682
00:47:46.790 --> 00:47:49.350
in terms of understanding this bigger picture?
683
00:47:49.350 --> 00:47:50.563
A lot, yes.
684
00:47:52.671 --> 00:47:57.671
We had, yes, extensive discussions about our vision
685
00:48:00.530 --> 00:48:01.853
of the world.
686
00:48:03.320 --> 00:48:06.803
And we were pretty much all of us on the same line.
687
00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:09.530
In the Guantanamo issue too
688
00:48:09.530 --> 00:48:11.520
did they seem like you did?
689
00:48:11.520 --> 00:48:12.353
Yes.
690
00:48:12.353 --> 00:48:14.030
Actually the Guantanamo issue
691
00:48:15.250 --> 00:48:20.250
I did not witness it myself much.
692
00:48:20.977 --> 00:48:24.160
It was witnessed especially
693
00:48:25.866 --> 00:48:30.866
by some of my cellmates
694
00:48:30.900 --> 00:48:34.000
who experienced more
695
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:38.360
with some of the jailers who had this in mind very much.
696
00:48:38.360 --> 00:48:43.360
So I mostly heard it from them.
697
00:48:44.900 --> 00:48:48.453
I experienced it when I, sorry.
698
00:48:49.510 --> 00:48:54.510
I experienced it when mostly through
699
00:48:54.940 --> 00:48:59.940
some of the discussions about the war on terror
700
00:49:00.200 --> 00:49:01.500
and Guantanamo.
701
00:49:01.500 --> 00:49:06.500
And when they put us in orange jumpsuits.
702
00:49:07.660 --> 00:49:10.979
How long were you in an orange jumpsuit?
703
00:49:10.979 --> 00:49:12.299
Couple of months.
704
00:49:12.299 --> 00:49:13.220
You wore an orange jumpsuit
705
00:49:13.220 --> 00:49:14.190
for a couple of months.
706
00:49:14.190 --> 00:49:17.350
Yes. And we had some infection problem
707
00:49:21.279 --> 00:49:26.250
that caused them to sterilize us
708
00:49:29.021 --> 00:49:32.400
and it just had to burn our angina series
709
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:35.928
because they were all contaminated.
710
00:49:35.928 --> 00:49:36.940
And do you know where they got those
711
00:49:36.940 --> 00:49:38.190
orange jumpsuits?
712
00:49:38.190 --> 00:49:40.613
Oh, they made them locally.
713
00:49:43.880 --> 00:49:45.870
At a local retailer obviously.
714
00:49:45.870 --> 00:49:47.950
And when they gave you the orange jumpsuits
715
00:49:47.950 --> 00:49:49.557
you make the connection to Guantanamo
716
00:49:49.557 --> 00:49:51.150
did they say you're wearing them
717
00:49:51.150 --> 00:49:53.216
because detainees wear them?
Yes.
718
00:49:53.216 --> 00:49:54.553
Did you hear them say that?
719
00:49:54.553 --> 00:49:58.310
Yes, it was not only implicit
720
00:50:00.090 --> 00:50:04.592
that this orange jumpsuits were related to Guantanamo.
721
00:50:04.592 --> 00:50:09.592
They told us you are in now in the model prison
722
00:50:11.570 --> 00:50:16.570
off the Islamic state, because we are a state.
723
00:50:18.175 --> 00:50:23.175
And because you are like, it's a high-value detainees.
724
00:50:26.560 --> 00:50:28.710
If Guantanamo didn't exist
725
00:50:30.050 --> 00:50:32.585
do you think you've had a different experience?
726
00:50:32.585 --> 00:50:33.668
Definitely.
727
00:50:35.020 --> 00:50:40.020
And more widely if the war on terror wouldn't have happened
728
00:50:42.364 --> 00:50:44.520
the experience would have been a total different
729
00:50:44.520 --> 00:50:46.810
especially when it comes to waterboarding
730
00:50:49.630 --> 00:50:52.200
because waterboarding was something extremely specific.
731
00:50:52.200 --> 00:50:57.200
I mean, the Islamic state is a fusion of two cultures.
732
00:50:59.300 --> 00:51:00.520
And you can see it very well
733
00:51:00.520 --> 00:51:03.140
when you look at their propaganda movies.
734
00:51:03.140 --> 00:51:04.610
In their propaganda movies,
735
00:51:04.610 --> 00:51:09.370
you have references to Islamic series,
736
00:51:09.370 --> 00:51:14.357
popular Islamic series that are produced by Arab TVs,
737
00:51:17.410 --> 00:51:21.163
archery, horses, fire,
738
00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:24.393
flags, or flames.
739
00:51:25.955 --> 00:51:28.980
Swirled, all these are things that you will
740
00:51:28.980 --> 00:51:31.780
that are very high
741
00:51:34.231 --> 00:51:37.490
in the popularized limits areas.
742
00:51:37.490 --> 00:51:42.400
And you have references to horror movies or our video games
743
00:51:45.050 --> 00:51:48.490
in terms of imagery, clothes, and so on and visual codes.
744
00:51:48.490 --> 00:51:51.830
So, because this group as a fusion
745
00:51:54.830 --> 00:51:59.110
is a result of the fusion between two populations
746
00:51:59.110 --> 00:52:02.140
that had originally nothing to do together
747
00:52:02.140 --> 00:52:07.140
which are namely rural people from the Euphrates valley.
748
00:52:07.860 --> 00:52:10.177
So you know the people wearing Jalabiya Kofia
749
00:52:10.177 --> 00:52:15.177
was a burden to them so the peasants and rebels
750
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:20.250
from around neighborhoods the baggy pants
751
00:52:20.250 --> 00:52:25.250
and the cat and watched "Arthur" series
752
00:52:25.819 --> 00:52:29.541
and played the same video games our kids are playing
753
00:52:29.541 --> 00:52:32.220
and the same series our kids are watching.
754
00:52:32.220 --> 00:52:36.563
So these two very different population met there.
755
00:52:40.739 --> 00:52:43.140
And this is what is crazy is
756
00:52:43.140 --> 00:52:48.140
that they succeeded to merge these two population.
757
00:52:50.221 --> 00:52:51.890
And it is exactly the same,
758
00:52:51.890 --> 00:52:54.100
this fusion you can also notice it
759
00:52:54.100 --> 00:52:55.340
in the weather torture
760
00:52:56.460 --> 00:53:01.460
because part of the torture,
761
00:53:04.100 --> 00:53:06.740
I spoke with some people specialized in
762
00:53:08.250 --> 00:53:13.250
who deal with people who found
763
00:53:13.417 --> 00:53:17.740
assimilation in France but were chartered in our country
764
00:53:20.568 --> 00:53:23.810
and they provide psychological help
765
00:53:23.810 --> 00:53:26.473
to these refugees who were tortured at home.
766
00:53:29.864 --> 00:53:34.267
And this psychologist told me that there is a school
767
00:53:36.130 --> 00:53:37.710
of torturing.
768
00:53:37.710 --> 00:53:42.710
There is a manner to torture in every country
769
00:53:44.090 --> 00:53:48.793
and actually in the jails of the Islamic state
770
00:53:52.860 --> 00:53:57.770
the way the tortured was a mix of Syrian regime
771
00:53:57.770 --> 00:54:02.230
and war on terror because you had in the group
772
00:54:02.230 --> 00:54:06.010
people who experienced themselves this torture
773
00:54:06.010 --> 00:54:07.480
from these two periods.
774
00:54:10.067 --> 00:54:11.306
They experienced themselves
775
00:54:11.306 --> 00:54:12.585
you mean they were tortured by Americans?
776
00:54:12.585 --> 00:54:13.525
Yes.
777
00:54:13.525 --> 00:54:15.763
And or by Syrians.
778
00:54:16.870 --> 00:54:18.610
Did you actually meet someone
779
00:54:18.610 --> 00:54:20.313
who was tortured by Americans?
780
00:54:21.730 --> 00:54:23.943
One of my jailer told me,
781
00:54:24.828 --> 00:54:25.730
I think it is bullshit
782
00:54:25.730 --> 00:54:30.730
but he still told us I, he was Tunisian or is Tunisian.
783
00:54:32.270 --> 00:54:34.370
I don't know if he's still alive.
784
00:54:34.370 --> 00:54:39.330
He told me, I spent, I think, four years in Guantanamo.
785
00:54:39.330 --> 00:54:40.780
One of your jailers told you that?
786
00:54:40.780 --> 00:54:41.753
Yes.
787
00:54:41.753 --> 00:54:42.586
Do you know his name?
788
00:54:42.586 --> 00:54:44.450
No, not even his known hair.
789
00:54:45.406 --> 00:54:50.406
The only thing I know is that he was Tunisian
790
00:54:50.420 --> 00:54:52.410
and I never saw his face
791
00:54:52.410 --> 00:54:55.473
but I would say in his maximum mid 30s.
792
00:54:57.220 --> 00:54:58.180
You never saw his face.
793
00:54:58.180 --> 00:54:59.760
You mean your jailers always kept their face
794
00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:01.679
hidden from you?
795
00:55:01.679 --> 00:55:03.963
Almost always. Yes.
796
00:55:04.860 --> 00:55:09.020
Except for the very low ranking or sometime,
797
00:55:09.020 --> 00:55:10.083
normally yes.
798
00:55:11.109 --> 00:55:13.120
A couple of things, I don't know if they knew,
799
00:55:13.120 --> 00:55:15.440
I don't know if you knew, but it's not clear
800
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:17.500
that waterboarding happened in Guantanamo.
801
00:55:17.500 --> 00:55:18.850
If it did happen
802
00:55:18.850 --> 00:55:21.950
by the CIA in a separate building down there
803
00:55:21.950 --> 00:55:24.830
and that hasn't been documented completely.
804
00:55:24.830 --> 00:55:26.490
Although some people believe that's
805
00:55:26.490 --> 00:55:27.430
what's true about the CIA
806
00:55:27.430 --> 00:55:28.423
but it was totally separate
807
00:55:28.423 --> 00:55:30.220
from the military running Guantanamo.
808
00:55:30.220 --> 00:55:32.700
Yeah, this is why said
809
00:55:32.700 --> 00:55:36.240
I separated myself Guantanamo and the war on terror
810
00:55:36.240 --> 00:55:38.870
because Guantanamo is part of the war on terror.
811
00:55:38.870 --> 00:55:41.203
But the war on terror more widely is,
812
00:55:41.203 --> 00:55:43.003
well it's invasion of two countries.
813
00:55:48.096 --> 00:55:50.910
And well ways to kill that torture,
814
00:55:50.910 --> 00:55:54.183
basically where terrorism is something extremely specific.
815
00:55:55.280 --> 00:55:59.630
Because normally if you do something
816
00:55:59.630 --> 00:56:04.370
the success of your deed will be up to your ability
817
00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:07.960
to do it.
818
00:56:07.960 --> 00:56:08.810
Right.
819
00:56:08.810 --> 00:56:13.550
But with terrorism, it's not the success
820
00:56:13.550 --> 00:56:17.850
of a terrorist act is not up to the terrorist.
821
00:56:17.850 --> 00:56:19.113
It is up to the victim.
822
00:56:20.950 --> 00:56:25.950
A successful terrorist act is an act
823
00:56:29.600 --> 00:56:33.300
to which the victim will react
824
00:56:33.300 --> 00:56:36.553
in the manner the terrorist wanted.
825
00:56:39.640 --> 00:56:44.640
So it is the victim of the act who will complete the success
826
00:56:52.349 --> 00:56:53.900
of the attack.
827
00:56:53.900 --> 00:56:57.813
So basically, the best example to that is 911.
828
00:57:03.140 --> 00:57:05.950
You have to be stupid to believe
829
00:57:05.950 --> 00:57:09.990
that you punished Al-Qaeda
830
00:57:09.990 --> 00:57:11.930
by invading Afghanistan and Iraq.
831
00:57:11.930 --> 00:57:16.930
No, the real success of 911 was not the destruction
832
00:57:18.700 --> 00:57:19.970
of the twin towers.
833
00:57:19.970 --> 00:57:23.400
It was the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq
834
00:57:24.870 --> 00:57:26.413
and it was Bin Laden
835
00:57:28.332 --> 00:57:31.832
who did that, but the victim of Bin Laden.
836
00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:38.373
And this is what is extremely specific with terrorism.
837
00:57:39.860 --> 00:57:42.010
And this is something we have to learn.
838
00:57:42.010 --> 00:57:44.470
And this is a message we shall propagate
839
00:57:44.470 --> 00:57:48.620
because most of the time when we pretend
840
00:57:48.620 --> 00:57:52.670
that we fight terrorism we actually feel it.
841
00:57:54.324 --> 00:57:55.157
And that's what you were saying
842
00:57:55.157 --> 00:57:59.370
that you said the ISIS people you met clearly wanted
843
00:57:59.370 --> 00:58:01.823
the armageddon that was their goal?
844
00:58:05.640 --> 00:58:08.000
I don't remember for sure
845
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:10.950
that I heard this while in captivity
846
00:58:11.880 --> 00:58:15.440
but this is what after my release,
847
00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:19.423
I extensively read Jihadist literature.
848
00:58:20.410 --> 00:58:25.410
And especially I read their online magazine, "The Big,"
849
00:58:28.830 --> 00:58:33.830
and it's extremely clear in this magazine.
850
00:58:36.470 --> 00:58:40.730
They even made a special issue on that.
851
00:58:40.730 --> 00:58:43.800
One of their very first issues of "The Big"
852
00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:48.800
was on the judgment day and the battle beforehand.
853
00:58:50.350 --> 00:58:52.840
So if Guantanamo didn't exist
854
00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:56.740
things might feel different and perhaps even better than--
855
00:58:56.740 --> 00:58:58.370
Definitely.
856
00:58:58.370 --> 00:59:01.630
Definitely. I mean, Guantanamo was one
857
00:59:01.630 --> 00:59:05.230
of the most efficient recruiting tool for Jihadis
858
00:59:05.230 --> 00:59:06.340
after 911.
859
00:59:06.340 --> 00:59:07.173
You believe that?
860
00:59:07.173 --> 00:59:10.430
Definately, I mean not only me and myself,
861
00:59:10.430 --> 00:59:13.030
I have more like a humanitarian
862
00:59:13.030 --> 00:59:17.050
or a human rights perspective but even,
863
00:59:17.050 --> 00:59:19.510
I mean even security
864
00:59:19.510 --> 00:59:22.553
or a intelligence express will tell you that,
865
00:59:23.730 --> 00:59:26.060
even the military will tell you that,
866
00:59:26.060 --> 00:59:27.370
even people in the other side
867
00:59:27.370 --> 00:59:30.363
I'm not a fighter myself, but even fighters,
868
00:59:31.410 --> 00:59:33.510
even people who are engaged with violence.
869
00:59:34.500 --> 00:59:38.530
A good fighter is someone who knows how to restrain
870
00:59:38.530 --> 00:59:39.423
his use of force,
871
00:59:42.425 --> 00:59:43.683
to optimize it.
872
00:59:46.575 --> 00:59:49.010
Was the CIA mentioned and MI5
873
00:59:49.010 --> 00:59:50.727
while you were captive?
874
00:59:50.727 --> 00:59:53.900
Yeah. Mostly to justify our capture
875
00:59:53.900 --> 00:59:57.820
pretending that we were intelligence people.
876
00:59:57.820 --> 00:59:59.836
It was just bullshit.
877
00:59:59.836 --> 01:00:01.000
Do you think they knew that was not true?
878
01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:02.020
They just made it up
879
01:00:02.020 --> 01:00:03.513
or you think they might've thought that.
880
01:00:03.513 --> 01:00:04.346
I don't know.
881
01:00:04.346 --> 01:00:07.043
These people live in such a parallel world that I don't know
882
01:00:07.043 --> 01:00:12.043
if they were believing their bullshit or not.
883
01:00:13.010 --> 01:00:17.730
It's difficult to assess if they lie to you
884
01:00:17.730 --> 01:00:22.643
because just want to lie to you
885
01:00:24.144 --> 01:00:25.994
or if they truly believes their lies.
886
01:00:26.880 --> 01:00:27.713
And there's something
887
01:00:27.713 --> 01:00:29.330
called extraordinary rendition.
888
01:00:29.330 --> 01:00:31.960
Did they bring that up at all?
889
01:00:31.960 --> 01:00:33.460
I knew, what was this of course,
890
01:00:33.460 --> 01:00:36.503
but wait,
891
01:00:40.600 --> 01:00:42.380
I don't remember
892
01:00:42.380 --> 01:00:45.583
if they did bring it up, but once again
893
01:00:49.340 --> 01:00:54.340
from what I've read of their propaganda literature,
894
01:00:56.958 --> 01:01:00.107
it's very important to them.
895
01:01:00.107 --> 01:01:04.883
And it has been as well a powerful recruitment tool.
896
01:01:05.780 --> 01:01:06.740
The way you describe it
897
01:01:06.740 --> 01:01:08.370
and I think that's important for history.
898
01:01:08.370 --> 01:01:11.250
Is that Guantanamo still the lightening.
899
01:01:11.250 --> 01:01:12.083
Yes.
900
01:01:12.083 --> 01:01:15.600
But that is really more than anything else
901
01:01:15.600 --> 01:01:18.610
what drove that tension no matter what Guantanamo
902
01:01:18.610 --> 01:01:19.690
really is.
903
01:01:19.690 --> 01:01:20.990
Yes.
904
01:01:20.990 --> 01:01:23.510
And in Guantanamo there was a lot of,
905
01:01:23.510 --> 01:01:25.630
there was quite a bit of isolation
906
01:01:25.630 --> 01:01:27.890
and actually Guantanamo detainees
907
01:01:27.890 --> 01:01:29.850
we interviewed describe Guantanamo
908
01:01:29.850 --> 01:01:33.710
as a psychological prison than just physical abuse.
909
01:01:33.710 --> 01:01:35.690
A lot of physical abuse occurred prior
910
01:01:35.690 --> 01:01:37.440
to people being sent to Guantanamo.
911
01:01:38.330 --> 01:01:39.787
Was that understood by these people
912
01:01:39.787 --> 01:01:42.560
and did they talk in terms of, or did they take you
913
01:01:42.560 --> 01:01:45.933
in terms of isolation or psychological abuse?
914
01:01:47.010 --> 01:01:47.843
Actually,
915
01:01:52.210 --> 01:01:57.000
to take someone hostage is per se
916
01:01:57.000 --> 01:01:58.283
a psychological abuse.
917
01:02:00.420 --> 01:02:05.420
And they were very good at that.
918
01:02:05.640 --> 01:02:08.680
Especially as they were playing about the timeframe
919
01:02:10.210 --> 01:02:13.930
it happened a few times that they told us
920
01:02:13.930 --> 01:02:15.970
you will be released tomorrow.
921
01:02:15.970 --> 01:02:18.293
And it happened at least four or five times,
922
01:02:19.720 --> 01:02:22.270
including two or three times very seriously.
923
01:02:22.270 --> 01:02:23.453
And making us pack.
924
01:02:24.970 --> 01:02:25.803
Really?
925
01:02:25.803 --> 01:02:26.636
Yes.
926
01:02:26.636 --> 01:02:27.820
Did they ever tell you afterwards that--
927
01:02:27.820 --> 01:02:31.230
But on the other hand then two weeks later
928
01:02:31.230 --> 01:02:32.360
the very same guys would come
929
01:02:32.360 --> 01:02:35.193
and say, "You will never leave.
930
01:02:36.177 --> 01:02:37.177
"You will die here
931
01:02:37.177 --> 01:02:39.577
"because your government doesn't care about you.
932
01:02:40.527 --> 01:02:43.383
"So you will die because the world has forgotten you.
933
01:02:46.147 --> 01:02:48.367
"And you will stay here forever."
934
01:02:50.103 --> 01:02:53.350
I knew this side where they had you pack your bags
935
01:02:53.350 --> 01:02:54.183
as if you're leaving.
936
01:02:54.183 --> 01:02:57.340
Did they say that was a Guantanamo trick
937
01:02:57.340 --> 01:03:00.100
and we're doing the same thing, did they say that?
938
01:03:06.700 --> 01:03:10.460
They even forced us to sing
939
01:03:12.920 --> 01:03:17.210
remake version of "Hotel California"
940
01:03:17.210 --> 01:03:19.783
that was badder than that.
941
01:03:21.467 --> 01:03:23.670
And that was Osama Lovely Otta.
942
01:03:25.180 --> 01:03:26.660
And it was about Guantanamo
943
01:03:30.608 --> 01:03:33.293
and it was saying you will never leave.
944
01:03:34.540 --> 01:03:35.510
And when they had you packed
945
01:03:35.510 --> 01:03:38.575
did they say later on that was a trick Guantanamo?
946
01:03:38.575 --> 01:03:39.408
No.
947
01:03:39.408 --> 01:03:40.710
They just did that to you.
948
01:03:40.710 --> 01:03:42.010
And when they said the first time
949
01:03:42.010 --> 01:03:44.473
you're gonna leave the next day, did you believe it?
950
01:03:45.350 --> 01:03:46.300
Of course you do.
951
01:03:48.730 --> 01:03:50.680
So do you think they refer--
952
01:03:50.680 --> 01:03:52.403
At the beginning you believe it,
953
01:03:55.563 --> 01:03:57.593
after it happens to you a couple of times,
954
01:03:58.970 --> 01:04:02.380
this is all about, it's all about the routine
955
01:04:02.380 --> 01:04:07.380
of being a hostage, the only way to survive as a hostage,
956
01:04:09.870 --> 01:04:13.590
even more than punctual physical abuse
957
01:04:16.357 --> 01:04:18.290
the biggest pain comes from the fact
958
01:04:18.290 --> 01:04:20.390
that you have no control on yourself,
959
01:04:20.390 --> 01:04:22.150
but very little control on yourself
960
01:04:22.150 --> 01:04:25.040
and no control at all about your future.
961
01:04:25.040 --> 01:04:30.040
You don't have any control or even knowledge
962
01:04:31.810 --> 01:04:36.810
about when you will be out or if ever you will be out
963
01:04:38.790 --> 01:04:41.203
or about the outcome of your captivity.
964
01:04:43.420 --> 01:04:48.420
And this the main source of pain I would say.
965
01:04:52.940 --> 01:04:55.180
So that's what detainees would tell us
966
01:04:55.180 --> 01:04:57.600
that the psychological torture is
967
01:04:57.600 --> 01:04:59.890
on some level worse than the physical.
968
01:04:59.890 --> 01:05:01.689
And is that when you would say too?
969
01:05:01.689 --> 01:05:02.669
Yes.
970
01:05:02.669 --> 01:05:05.093
And even 'cause physical torture,
971
01:05:12.800 --> 01:05:17.800
how do you call the medicine to antidepressant?
972
01:05:18.775 --> 01:05:19.608
Anti-depressant.
973
01:05:19.608 --> 01:05:21.886
Anti-depressant, okay.
974
01:05:21.886 --> 01:05:23.880
Or relaxing pill.
975
01:05:23.880 --> 01:05:25.180
Okay. Yeah.
976
01:05:25.180 --> 01:05:29.860
Okay. If you come to me and tell me,
977
01:05:29.860 --> 01:05:33.950
okay, in a half an hour I will take you
978
01:05:34.790 --> 01:05:39.113
to a torture room and I'm going to torture you.
979
01:05:40.450 --> 01:05:45.450
But because I'm a nice guy, I'm here with two pills.
980
01:05:46.880 --> 01:05:48.180
I have a painkiller
981
01:05:49.490 --> 01:05:52.973
and I have a relaxing pill,
982
01:05:53.860 --> 01:05:55.683
anti-stress, anti-stress.
983
01:05:57.720 --> 01:05:59.393
You can take only one of them.
984
01:06:00.390 --> 01:06:01.800
Which one would you like?
985
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:03.420
I would go for the second one.
986
01:06:03.420 --> 01:06:04.380
The relaxing pill?
987
01:06:04.380 --> 01:06:08.050
Yes. Because you can always deal with the pain.
988
01:06:08.050 --> 01:06:10.463
It's not much a problem to deal with the pain.
989
01:06:11.948 --> 01:06:16.290
Everything is up there and you have to be flatline
990
01:06:19.830 --> 01:06:21.320
and to come back to your question
991
01:06:21.320 --> 01:06:24.060
about the psychological torture.
992
01:06:29.590 --> 01:06:31.940
It's all about being flatline.
993
01:06:31.940 --> 01:06:35.250
They tell you, we will kill you.
994
01:06:35.250 --> 01:06:38.220
Well, we will kill you tomorrow, you don't go down,
995
01:06:38.220 --> 01:06:40.770
if they tell you, we will release you tomorrow,
996
01:06:40.770 --> 01:06:42.710
you don't go high.
997
01:06:42.710 --> 01:06:44.773
You just a flatline, a routine,
998
01:06:47.220 --> 01:06:50.863
you enter a routine and you do not live it.
999
01:06:52.050 --> 01:06:56.640
And until you see the border
1000
01:06:57.640 --> 01:07:02.490
and until you are actually released, but up to that point
1001
01:07:03.420 --> 01:07:07.083
you just stay in this routine.
1002
01:07:09.120 --> 01:07:11.983
So a flatline.
1003
01:07:13.310 --> 01:07:17.280
So did you observe that in the other captives
1004
01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:18.113
as well?
1005
01:07:18.113 --> 01:07:21.610
Do they all react the same way you're describing?
1006
01:07:21.610 --> 01:07:24.970
Some of us needed some time to adopt,
1007
01:07:24.970 --> 01:07:26.300
even myself of course.
1008
01:07:26.300 --> 01:07:29.160
I mean, all of us needed some time to adapt,
1009
01:07:29.160 --> 01:07:34.160
for some of us it came very fast.
1010
01:07:35.280 --> 01:07:37.220
Some others needed more time
1011
01:07:38.240 --> 01:07:43.240
but we eventually, well reach this level to calm down
1012
01:07:46.240 --> 01:07:49.603
with our emotion and to adjust.
1013
01:07:50.580 --> 01:07:55.580
Yeah relax and try to take events as they were going.
1014
01:07:56.083 --> 01:08:00.460
And I think that this is pretty much what captives
1015
01:08:03.090 --> 01:08:06.360
in Guantanamo walked on
1016
01:08:06.360 --> 01:08:09.127
because there must be pretty much
1017
01:08:10.894 --> 01:08:12.510
in the same as state of mind.
1018
01:08:12.510 --> 01:08:16.913
Basically they have no foreseeable future.
1019
01:08:18.730 --> 01:08:23.300
They can't know about their fate.
1020
01:08:23.300 --> 01:08:26.290
And it's about the same, I would say.
1021
01:08:26.290 --> 01:08:29.883
We interviewed some young detainees.
1022
01:08:30.730 --> 01:08:31.930
I'm thinking of one in particular
1023
01:08:31.930 --> 01:08:35.670
who was very forceful in fighting back
1024
01:08:35.670 --> 01:08:39.650
and he felt that's what would keep him going.
1025
01:08:39.650 --> 01:08:43.530
And he never became flatliner if you had the time
1026
01:08:43.530 --> 01:08:45.440
which why I'm asking you, if you saw anybody
1027
01:08:45.440 --> 01:08:49.390
who did just feel they had a fight back even if...
1028
01:08:50.592 --> 01:08:53.572
No
1029
01:08:53.572 --> 01:08:56.358
Some of us were bad flatliners,
1030
01:08:56.358 --> 01:08:59.191
(Narrator laughs)
1031
01:09:00.630 --> 01:09:03.590
and I'm glad that Jen Cantley is extremely good
1032
01:09:03.590 --> 01:09:04.810
at that.
1033
01:09:04.810 --> 01:09:06.580
You think who's good at that?
1034
01:09:06.580 --> 01:09:09.343
Jen Cantley, as the last remaining hostage,
1035
01:09:12.090 --> 01:09:15.180
is extremely strong and I'm very glad.
1036
01:09:15.180 --> 01:09:17.509
Strong in being a flatliner you mean?
1037
01:09:17.509 --> 01:09:18.562
Yes.
1038
01:09:18.562 --> 01:09:20.190
So you think that helped save you?
1039
01:09:20.190 --> 01:09:21.023
Yes.
1040
01:09:21.023 --> 01:09:25.360
So what he's going currently still going through
1041
01:09:26.270 --> 01:09:29.790
is totally insane, but I trust him
1042
01:09:32.993 --> 01:09:35.280
to endure it and to yeah.
1043
01:09:37.434 --> 01:09:41.069
To go straight with all of his trends.
1044
01:09:41.069 --> 01:09:42.980
'Cause he and you don't know
1045
01:09:42.980 --> 01:09:45.580
and we can take some of this off camera
1046
01:09:45.580 --> 01:09:49.490
but you don't know if he has company too
1047
01:09:50.790 --> 01:09:53.606
so that he has some other people in support?
1048
01:09:53.606 --> 01:09:55.057
I don't know.
1049
01:09:55.057 --> 01:09:57.060
I know of course, nothing,
1050
01:09:57.060 --> 01:10:02.060
except for some very little bits that a few people believed
1051
01:10:02.460 --> 01:10:06.420
after me, told me, I know of course
1052
01:10:06.420 --> 01:10:08.740
nothing of what happened
1053
01:10:08.740 --> 01:10:13.740
to my fellow cellmates after my release,
1054
01:10:14.600 --> 01:10:18.640
at least up to the point some of them were murdered.
1055
01:10:18.640 --> 01:10:22.320
Did ever meet Kayla Mula while you were there?
1056
01:10:22.320 --> 01:10:23.751
I met here once.
1057
01:10:23.751 --> 01:10:24.584
While you were captive?
1058
01:10:24.584 --> 01:10:26.680
Yes. And the day before my release
1059
01:10:28.090 --> 01:10:33.090
as they took her to our cell and she's spoke
1060
01:10:33.370 --> 01:10:36.250
for a few minutes, just introduce herself.
1061
01:10:36.250 --> 01:10:38.760
They apparently wanted us to deliver a proof
1062
01:10:38.760 --> 01:10:39.763
of life for her.
1063
01:10:41.462 --> 01:10:42.897
The day before you were released
1064
01:10:42.897 --> 01:10:45.310
and you know the next day you are gonna be released?
1065
01:10:45.310 --> 01:10:46.226
Yes.
1066
01:10:46.226 --> 01:10:49.313
They told us we would soon be released.
1067
01:10:50.219 --> 01:10:51.460
And this time?
1068
01:10:51.460 --> 01:10:56.060
And this time there had been some released already.
1069
01:10:57.974 --> 01:11:00.847
So we were starting to be a bit high
1070
01:11:00.847 --> 01:11:04.322
and no longer that much flatline?
1071
01:11:04.322 --> 01:11:06.980
Did they tell you'll never see your family again
1072
01:11:06.980 --> 01:11:08.450
or they talked about your family at all?
1073
01:11:08.450 --> 01:11:09.790
Yes.
1074
01:11:09.790 --> 01:11:11.260
Was that also deliberate
1075
01:11:11.260 --> 01:11:12.888
as part of the psychological?
1076
01:11:12.888 --> 01:11:14.370
Yes.
1077
01:11:14.370 --> 01:11:15.399
Yes, of course.
1078
01:11:15.399 --> 01:11:17.780
They were very good at that, they even--
1079
01:11:17.780 --> 01:11:19.080
Go on I'm sorry.
1080
01:11:21.370 --> 01:11:23.257
You were gonna say they even?
1081
01:11:23.257 --> 01:11:25.420
They even sent to my wife the picture
1082
01:11:25.420 --> 01:11:28.890
of the first hostage they killed, that was in public.
1083
01:11:28.890 --> 01:11:30.380
They send them to your wife?
1084
01:11:30.380 --> 01:11:31.213
By email, yes.
1085
01:11:32.970 --> 01:11:33.870
Before my release.
1086
01:11:34.803 --> 01:11:36.830
Did she know you were captive from the beginning?
1087
01:11:36.830 --> 01:11:38.430
Yes. She understood very soon.
1088
01:11:43.157 --> 01:11:44.908
And they had your wife's email from you or?
1089
01:11:44.908 --> 01:11:45.741
Yes.
1090
01:11:46.620 --> 01:11:50.390
They had told some people I know
1091
01:11:50.390 --> 01:11:54.780
in CIA rendition sites and perhaps in Guantanamo
1092
01:11:54.780 --> 01:11:57.499
that their wives were gonna be raped
1093
01:11:57.499 --> 01:12:01.120
or in front of them or anything did stories like that, or?
1094
01:12:01.120 --> 01:12:03.580
No, of course, because it was not a credible,
1095
01:12:03.580 --> 01:12:06.750
they had no access fortunately to our relatives
1096
01:12:06.750 --> 01:12:07.583
which is not the case
1097
01:12:07.583 --> 01:12:09.840
because in Guantanamo it's even worse because
1098
01:12:11.219 --> 01:12:14.000
the CIA is potentially so powerful
1099
01:12:14.000 --> 01:12:16.796
that you can imagine an abduction anywhere in the world.
1100
01:12:16.796 --> 01:12:20.020
Right.
1101
01:12:20.020 --> 01:12:22.891
Thanks, God, ISIS cannot do that.
1102
01:12:22.891 --> 01:12:26.691
ere they concerned about your children at all?
1103
01:12:26.691 --> 01:12:28.481
Were they interested in your children?
1104
01:12:28.481 --> 01:12:30.950
They no pity, neither for the children
1105
01:12:30.950 --> 01:12:32.103
or for anything else?
1106
01:12:34.016 --> 01:12:36.870
They were just sticking to the line.
1107
01:12:36.870 --> 01:12:38.063
You deserved that.
1108
01:12:39.490 --> 01:12:44.490
But the psychological torture was also for the families,
1109
01:12:47.280 --> 01:12:52.280
because I think that the pain of the relatives
1110
01:12:54.320 --> 01:12:56.830
is even bigger than the pain
1111
01:12:56.830 --> 01:13:00.990
of the captive when you're hostage, because the family
1112
01:13:00.990 --> 01:13:02.513
does not know anything.
1113
01:13:08.542 --> 01:13:11.410
The relatives of some of my former cellmates
1114
01:13:11.410 --> 01:13:16.410
received very first prove of life of their son
1115
01:13:18.130 --> 01:13:22.950
or brother only about something like a year
1116
01:13:24.130 --> 01:13:25.453
after the capture,
1117
01:13:29.130 --> 01:13:34.130
try to imagine that you just don't know, you don't know
1118
01:13:34.520 --> 01:13:39.520
if he has been killed and buried or burned or is taken
1119
01:13:42.709 --> 01:13:43.830
or the conditions you don't know.
1120
01:13:43.830 --> 01:13:46.413
(static sound)
1121
01:13:49.800 --> 01:13:52.593
than to experience firsthand.
1122
01:13:54.240 --> 01:13:59.220
So, and this is definitely,
1123
01:13:59.220 --> 01:14:03.790
I mean in this abduction enterprise
1124
01:14:10.627 --> 01:14:12.043
the victims they were not only 2000s of victims.
1125
01:14:17.023 --> 01:14:19.890
There were also the families because the pain
1126
01:14:21.508 --> 01:14:24.680
of the parents, of my parents, of my wife,
1127
01:14:28.540 --> 01:14:32.400
the pain of the relatives of all of my cellmates
1128
01:14:33.630 --> 01:14:37.773
was probably higher than my own pain.
1129
01:14:40.550 --> 01:14:42.660
Is something international that parents
1130
01:14:42.660 --> 01:14:45.490
suffered torture when their children disappear.
1131
01:14:45.490 --> 01:14:47.990
And I think that's what you're describing.
1132
01:14:47.990 --> 01:14:50.740
Could you just tell us how did your wife hear about you
1133
01:14:51.680 --> 01:14:52.513
being captured?
1134
01:14:55.210 --> 01:15:00.210
We had a security arrangement that was that I would
1135
01:15:03.240 --> 01:15:05.530
contact her in a way or another.
1136
01:15:05.530 --> 01:15:10.530
I had two satellite transmission device
1137
01:15:11.160 --> 01:15:13.940
namely a sat phone and data antenna.
1138
01:15:13.940 --> 01:15:18.877
So I was potentially reachable all the time.
1139
01:15:20.450 --> 01:15:23.053
I didn't have to rely on the local infrastructure.
1140
01:15:26.356 --> 01:15:27.189
And so
1141
01:15:30.940 --> 01:15:35.940
I told her before living that I would try to contact
1142
01:15:36.670 --> 01:15:38.350
her twice a day
1143
01:15:39.550 --> 01:15:44.550
but at least once a day
1144
01:15:45.620 --> 01:15:50.110
and that after 24 hours with no message from me
1145
01:15:50.110 --> 01:15:54.933
she should contact the Franc Ministry,
1146
01:15:55.840 --> 01:15:57.053
the crisis center.
1147
01:15:58.060 --> 01:16:01.440
And I had a contingency plan with everything listed
1148
01:16:01.440 --> 01:16:03.550
and the phone number and everything.
1149
01:16:03.550 --> 01:16:07.010
So she calls them on the 25th hour.
1150
01:16:07.010 --> 01:16:08.350
And they knew?
1151
01:16:08.350 --> 01:16:10.127
And they understood.
1152
01:16:11.360 --> 01:16:16.360
She first called them and they just took the message.
1153
01:16:17.720 --> 01:16:18.850
It was over the weekend.
1154
01:16:18.850 --> 01:16:23.520
So they said, okay, thank you for the notice.
1155
01:16:23.520 --> 01:16:26.107
And after that, she called the editor
1156
01:16:26.107 --> 01:16:29.210
of the main paper I worked for.
1157
01:16:29.210 --> 01:16:34.210
And he called someone high in the ministry.
1158
01:16:35.440 --> 01:16:40.440
And they called her back and it became very soon,
1159
01:16:40.920 --> 01:16:43.730
I think something serious.
1160
01:16:43.730 --> 01:16:45.230
How would they know?
1161
01:16:47.133 --> 01:16:47.997
They just knew
1162
01:16:50.070 --> 01:16:55.070
that considering the situation and considering
1163
01:16:55.190 --> 01:16:58.820
that the fact was the transmission devices I had with me
1164
01:16:59.690 --> 01:17:03.100
that it was something serious
1165
01:17:03.100 --> 01:17:05.830
if I did not communicate
1166
01:17:05.830 --> 01:17:10.653
and or answer calls or emails.
1167
01:17:12.875 --> 01:17:14.960
When ISIS took you did they try to explain
1168
01:17:14.960 --> 01:17:16.080
to you that they were different
1169
01:17:16.080 --> 01:17:18.703
from the other rebel groups in Syria?
1170
01:17:20.080 --> 01:17:22.240
Did they identify their part?
1171
01:17:23.430 --> 01:17:25.170
Yes. I had a bit
1172
01:17:25.170 --> 01:17:28.630
of a discussion about that with a European Jihadi.
1173
01:17:28.630 --> 01:17:30.030
And he told me is that
1174
01:17:32.260 --> 01:17:35.180
because they are in competition with all the other groups
1175
01:17:35.180 --> 01:17:39.833
they have no ally, no friend in Syria or Iraq.
1176
01:17:41.368 --> 01:17:46.017
So even with Al-Qaeda or with the other Jihadi group named,
1177
01:17:48.880 --> 01:17:51.850
Al-Hasham, they are competitors.
1178
01:17:51.850 --> 01:17:54.210
So their position, while at least the position
1179
01:17:54.210 --> 01:17:59.210
of this young European fighter is, was to say,
1180
01:17:59.710 --> 01:18:03.603
he told me, "Well, we have struggled with them
1181
01:18:03.603 --> 01:18:08.603
"but it's mostly at the level of the leaders.
1182
01:18:09.920 --> 01:18:14.620
But most of the people who fight
1183
01:18:14.620 --> 01:18:19.620
in these groups are good people except for the rebels.
1184
01:18:19.630 --> 01:18:22.320
So the FSA, the Fritz in the army,
1185
01:18:22.320 --> 01:18:23.540
they are just crooks
1186
01:18:28.040 --> 01:18:30.197
and they are not mostly in them, blah, blah, blah,
1187
01:18:30.197 --> 01:18:33.520
they are Kufar you know the story,
1188
01:18:33.520 --> 01:18:37.230
but they had some respect I would say,
1189
01:18:37.230 --> 01:18:38.790
at least at that time, at least when it comes
1190
01:18:38.790 --> 01:18:43.790
to this discussion, had some respect for the fighters
1191
01:18:46.710 --> 01:18:51.710
but for them, it was just a misleading leadership.
1192
01:18:53.850 --> 01:18:56.880
When you were there, did they give you news?
1193
01:18:56.880 --> 01:18:59.936
Were you informed of what was going on in the world at all?
1194
01:18:59.936 --> 01:19:02.430
Very low, we had, well,
1195
01:19:02.430 --> 01:19:07.430
we had a two or three news from the rest of the world.
1196
01:19:09.550 --> 01:19:10.810
We heard for instance,
1197
01:19:10.810 --> 01:19:13.363
accidentally of the death of Nelson Mandela.
1198
01:19:14.470 --> 01:19:17.960
And we heard that Francois Hollande had an affair
1199
01:19:17.960 --> 01:19:22.960
and was taken in "People's Magazine" with a mistress.
1200
01:19:24.580 --> 01:19:28.393
And that was hilarious.
1201
01:19:29.298 --> 01:19:32.290
Well, that was the demonstration
1202
01:19:32.290 --> 01:19:37.023
of their theory to them.
1203
01:19:41.990 --> 01:19:44.680
Your societies are just thinking,
1204
01:19:44.680 --> 01:19:46.647
well, it's just about fuck.
1205
01:19:46.647 --> 01:19:49.050
(Narrator laughs)
1206
01:19:49.050 --> 01:19:51.183
Your societies are totally corrupted.
1207
01:19:52.190 --> 01:19:55.610
We know that and this is why we fight you,
1208
01:19:55.610 --> 01:19:56.910
look at your president
1209
01:19:57.780 --> 01:20:00.230
and they were jubilating about that,
1210
01:20:00.230 --> 01:20:01.533
jubilating as you can say.
1211
01:20:02.580 --> 01:20:03.933
Can we get a short break, please?
1212
01:20:03.933 --> 01:20:05.728
Yes, let's take a short break absolutely.
1213
01:20:05.728 --> 01:20:06.561
Thank you.
1214
01:20:06.561 --> 01:20:09.561
There is water right there.
1215
01:20:10.543 --> 01:20:12.487
Before the break you mentioned Hollande
1216
01:20:12.487 --> 01:20:13.430
and the affair.
1217
01:20:13.430 --> 01:20:18.120
They were ridiculing Western society for that purpose.
1218
01:20:19.810 --> 01:20:23.140
That made me think, did you ever, did they have any women
1219
01:20:23.140 --> 01:20:26.240
in your presence at all at any time while you were there?
1220
01:20:27.730 --> 01:20:32.730
There were, I haven't seen any women in the group.
1221
01:20:32.950 --> 01:20:35.730
I know they have, because especially many jihadists
1222
01:20:35.730 --> 01:20:40.730
come travel to Syria and join ISSIS along with their family,
1223
01:20:45.090 --> 01:20:48.390
I heard some women captives
1224
01:20:49.310 --> 01:20:53.350
and I have seen few of them but of course
1225
01:20:53.350 --> 01:20:57.730
it was just from far.
1226
01:20:57.730 --> 01:21:00.280
But they didn't have women tempt you or to--
1227
01:21:00.280 --> 01:21:01.113
Not at all
1228
01:21:03.470 --> 01:21:04.303
Not at all.
1229
01:21:08.044 --> 01:21:11.480
They still try to stick to some bases of Islam,
1230
01:21:16.140 --> 01:21:21.140
including, well, especially this is a very strict reading
1231
01:21:21.340 --> 01:21:22.740
of Islam that they're having
1232
01:21:24.660 --> 01:21:28.673
that prohibits close contact between men
1233
01:21:30.070 --> 01:21:32.400
and women when they're are not relatives.
1234
01:21:32.400 --> 01:21:34.670
And another just a minute.
1235
01:21:34.670 --> 01:21:35.503
Okay, we're rolling.
1236
01:21:35.503 --> 01:21:40.272
Okay. One of the things that did happen
1237
01:21:40.272 --> 01:21:43.630
in people captive by the US government
1238
01:21:43.630 --> 01:21:45.910
was they were strip naked
1239
01:21:45.910 --> 01:21:48.740
and sometimes kept that way
1240
01:21:48.740 --> 01:21:52.490
or just kept in shorts in order to humiliate them.
1241
01:21:52.490 --> 01:21:56.460
Did that happen to captives again, in reaction
1242
01:21:56.460 --> 01:22:00.130
the same thing to show that they're like Guantanamo?
1243
01:22:02.390 --> 01:22:07.170
There has been very little of that, but I mean
1244
01:22:07.170 --> 01:22:11.370
it was somehow conflicting, I think for them,
1245
01:22:11.370 --> 01:22:16.370
because on one hand, this is, I mean, nudity is normal
1246
01:22:19.700 --> 01:22:24.170
for us exceptional but extremely shocking
1247
01:22:30.110 --> 01:22:33.683
for someone with an Arab or Muslim culture,
1248
01:22:36.956 --> 01:22:39.763
this the a reason for the fury that's followed
1249
01:22:40.610 --> 01:22:42.763
the release of the pictures of Abu Ghraib.
1250
01:22:45.020 --> 01:22:48.670
I mean, if the pictures of Abu Ghraib would have
1251
01:22:48.670 --> 01:22:53.670
shown torture with electricity or torture with beating
1252
01:22:53.890 --> 01:22:55.970
that would have been normal for an Arab
1253
01:22:55.970 --> 01:22:58.350
because this is what they are used to
1254
01:22:59.630 --> 01:23:04.630
but nudity is something like it's the worst
1255
01:23:04.860 --> 01:23:07.120
you inflict to someone.
1256
01:23:07.120 --> 01:23:10.880
So this is why it was so shocking to them.
1257
01:23:10.880 --> 01:23:13.620
And this is by the way, why I believe
1258
01:23:13.620 --> 01:23:16.940
that some Americans have used it
1259
01:23:16.940 --> 01:23:18.690
against some Guantanamo inmates
1260
01:23:19.599 --> 01:23:24.450
because it's one of the most powerful ways
1261
01:23:24.450 --> 01:23:26.120
they could humiliate them
1262
01:23:27.850 --> 01:23:31.780
but on the other hand, so I think it was a bit conflicting
1263
01:23:31.780 --> 01:23:35.730
to them because on one hand they wanted to revenge on that.
1264
01:23:35.730 --> 01:23:38.200
But on the other hand it was
1265
01:23:44.130 --> 01:23:46.830
so contradictory to their customs
1266
01:23:46.830 --> 01:23:49.390
that they could not do that.
1267
01:23:49.390 --> 01:23:52.920
So we had very little of that.
1268
01:23:52.920 --> 01:23:55.990
Was Abu Ghraib mentioned at all by them?
1269
01:23:55.990 --> 01:23:56.993
Potentially not.
1270
01:24:00.666 --> 01:24:04.853
I mean, amongst, we had a general some general preaches
1271
01:24:06.070 --> 01:24:10.650
about all the capabilities of the West
1272
01:24:10.650 --> 01:24:12.130
and all our guilts
1273
01:24:14.990 --> 01:24:19.990
and Abu Ghraib was yes, probably in that,
1274
01:24:20.700 --> 01:24:25.040
but it's already a bit old
1275
01:24:25.040 --> 01:24:30.040
and I don't have memory of that exact quote.
1276
01:24:31.690 --> 01:24:34.580
One of things that we were interested in is
1277
01:24:34.580 --> 01:24:39.100
if from ISIS wanted you to understand
1278
01:24:39.100 --> 01:24:41.710
that this is a reaction to Guantanamo,
1279
01:24:41.710 --> 01:24:44.670
do you see that in their publicity
1280
01:24:44.670 --> 01:24:46.883
other than the fact that the men who were behind it
1281
01:24:46.883 --> 01:24:51.180
were on jumpsuits, did ISIS promote that image
1282
01:24:51.180 --> 01:24:55.803
that Guantanamo informs the way they treat their captives?
1283
01:25:07.030 --> 01:25:08.413
I think that, yes,
1284
01:25:09.680 --> 01:25:13.740
it has to do with what they called a model jail
1285
01:25:15.820 --> 01:25:17.920
for VIP prisoners.
1286
01:25:17.920 --> 01:25:22.920
So they had a whole speech around that
1287
01:25:28.100 --> 01:25:32.500
that they say is they wanted us to be there
1288
01:25:32.500 --> 01:25:37.200
high value detainees and that they would handle us as such.
1289
01:25:39.040 --> 01:25:42.513
And they called you high value detainees?
1290
01:25:43.730 --> 01:25:46.453
What that says to you and you understanding it.
1291
01:25:46.453 --> 01:25:47.731
Yes.
1292
01:25:47.731 --> 01:25:49.760
Can I ask a more general question?
1293
01:25:49.760 --> 01:25:50.690
Go ahead, Lou.
1294
01:25:50.690 --> 01:25:54.420
In terms of their outreach materials,
1295
01:25:54.420 --> 01:25:59.420
the symbol of Guantanamo or the imagery of Guantanamo
1296
01:26:00.240 --> 01:26:01.770
is do you see it
1297
01:26:01.770 --> 01:26:06.433
in their online outreach materials to recruit new members?
1298
01:26:12.030 --> 01:26:15.110
I don't remember any mention of Guantanamo
1299
01:26:15.110 --> 01:26:20.110
in the Beacon, which is a main propaganda tour
1300
01:26:23.850 --> 01:26:26.478
but I'm sure that they are, I would have to do some research
1301
01:26:26.478 --> 01:26:27.311
on it.
1302
01:26:27.311 --> 01:26:30.253
It's probably worth to research on that.
1303
01:26:31.590 --> 01:26:33.060
And the model prison.
1304
01:26:33.060 --> 01:26:36.230
I never heard of that model prison till you told us
1305
01:26:36.230 --> 01:26:39.980
do you think that they promote that image outside
1306
01:26:39.980 --> 01:26:43.110
or that's how they just presented it to you?
1307
01:26:43.110 --> 01:26:46.493
This is only where they presented it to us,
1308
01:26:48.720 --> 01:26:51.450
they communicated very little
1309
01:26:51.450 --> 01:26:53.910
about us because most of us
1310
01:26:56.408 --> 01:26:58.530
were under blackout.
1311
01:26:58.530 --> 01:27:03.530
So only, for most of my fellow cellmates were released.
1312
01:27:08.320 --> 01:27:12.180
Our release was a discrete except for us
1313
01:27:12.180 --> 01:27:16.490
because our government made a big case about us
1314
01:27:19.240 --> 01:27:20.910
pertaining with the media.
1315
01:27:20.910 --> 01:27:23.780
Our case we had quite a high profile.
1316
01:27:23.780 --> 01:27:27.110
But for most of my former cellmates it was just
1317
01:27:29.080 --> 01:27:33.573
like a short news in the media.
1318
01:27:34.710 --> 01:27:37.320
Italian government announces as a release
1319
01:27:37.320 --> 01:27:38.860
of one of its citizens,
1320
01:27:38.860 --> 01:27:40.790
German government announces the release
1321
01:27:40.790 --> 01:27:42.250
of one of its citizens.
1322
01:27:42.250 --> 01:27:47.250
And that said if any and some of my former cellmates
1323
01:27:48.560 --> 01:27:53.560
were released with no one knowing it.
1324
01:27:57.094 --> 01:27:59.480
I mean, you probably don't wanna talk about it
1325
01:28:00.803 --> 01:28:03.070
on camera but since Johnny mentioned it,
1326
01:28:03.070 --> 01:28:06.233
do you know why you were released?
1327
01:28:07.070 --> 01:28:09.773
Why? Well, I'm not naive.
1328
01:28:10.760 --> 01:28:11.593
I've been traded
1329
01:28:11.593 --> 01:28:14.163
for something, I've been exchanged for something.
1330
01:28:15.210 --> 01:28:16.360
The only thing that I,
1331
01:28:16.360 --> 01:28:18.893
well, this I have to assume it because,
1332
01:28:20.493 --> 01:28:24.340
well it's not because I was kind to them
1333
01:28:24.340 --> 01:28:27.883
or I'm a nice smiles that eventually released me.
1334
01:28:33.100 --> 01:28:33.933
The only thing I know
1335
01:28:33.933 --> 01:28:37.300
for sure is what President Hollande told me
1336
01:28:37.300 --> 01:28:39.763
when I came back, when we arrived in Paris,
1337
01:28:43.571 --> 01:28:47.750
he told me France did not pay.
1338
01:28:47.750 --> 01:28:48.583
He told you that?
1339
01:28:48.583 --> 01:28:50.060
Yes. So does it means
1340
01:28:50.060 --> 01:28:55.040
that someone else did pay or that we have been exchanged
1341
01:28:55.040 --> 01:28:57.000
for something that was not monetary?
1342
01:28:57.000 --> 01:28:59.700
I don't know, but the only thing
1343
01:28:59.700 --> 01:29:03.880
I know I do for sure is that the money
1344
01:29:03.880 --> 01:29:06.933
if there were any money did not come from the government.
1345
01:29:10.240 --> 01:29:15.240
I would like to elaborate a bit on this issue
1346
01:29:15.270 --> 01:29:18.328
of share would negotiate for the release
1347
01:29:18.328 --> 01:29:23.070
of hostages taken by a terrorist organization.
1348
01:29:23.070 --> 01:29:27.100
I was myself, pretty much against any negotiation
1349
01:29:27.100 --> 01:29:29.770
up to the very minute I'd been taken.
1350
01:29:29.770 --> 01:29:32.240
So it's very easy.
1351
01:29:32.240 --> 01:29:36.863
And one must be very careful taking any position.
1352
01:29:39.890 --> 01:29:43.610
I believe a representative shall not make any statements
1353
01:29:43.610 --> 01:29:48.610
to the camera before his son is taken hostage
1354
01:29:51.697 --> 01:29:53.453
and such a serious issue.
1355
01:29:56.550 --> 01:29:59.720
And one must be very careful about
1356
01:30:02.661 --> 01:30:05.213
what is a public discourse as a public speech
1357
01:30:08.160 --> 01:30:10.263
and what happens in reality,
1358
01:30:11.950 --> 01:30:15.430
there is a trend to separate
1359
01:30:18.720 --> 01:30:20.040
between two countries,
1360
01:30:20.040 --> 01:30:22.460
two categories of countries,
1361
01:30:22.460 --> 01:30:25.150
you have the country that pay
1362
01:30:25.150 --> 01:30:27.283
and the countries that don't pay.
1363
01:30:28.280 --> 01:30:31.630
So you'd have something like the US,
1364
01:30:31.630 --> 01:30:33.870
the UK were very virtuous
1365
01:30:33.870 --> 01:30:37.130
and resilient and we refused to deal
1366
01:30:37.130 --> 01:30:39.330
and to make any concession to terrorist.
1367
01:30:39.330 --> 01:30:41.130
And you would have on the other hand
1368
01:30:43.050 --> 01:30:48.050
weak, all European countries who make concessions
1369
01:30:49.730 --> 01:30:51.480
and eventually finds themselves
1370
01:30:51.480 --> 01:30:54.730
in the position to fund terrorism.
1371
01:30:54.730 --> 01:30:58.473
It's not like this in reality, what is the reality?
1372
01:30:59.480 --> 01:31:04.480
Every time you have a hostage situation
1373
01:31:05.100 --> 01:31:07.190
you will have an assessment made
1374
01:31:07.190 --> 01:31:10.420
by his intelligence services and base administration
1375
01:31:11.800 --> 01:31:16.800
with a cost benefit ratio and consideration.
1376
01:31:18.890 --> 01:31:23.160
You will see, okay, what would it cost
1377
01:31:23.160 --> 01:31:27.050
to us to give the hostage takers
1378
01:31:27.050 --> 01:31:28.513
what they're asking for?
1379
01:31:29.450 --> 01:31:32.300
What would be the consequences in the regions,
1380
01:31:32.300 --> 01:31:34.940
local consequence for our allies
1381
01:31:37.734 --> 01:31:39.034
for the difference in the,
1382
01:31:40.884 --> 01:31:43.427
what differences would that do in the situation
1383
01:31:46.660 --> 01:31:47.880
and at the opposite
1384
01:31:47.880 --> 01:31:51.080
what would be the political cost
1385
01:31:51.080 --> 01:31:53.670
of not negotiating
1386
01:31:55.974 --> 01:31:59.600
and then there is an assessment for every single case.
1387
01:31:59.600 --> 01:32:04.360
And as a result of that if you look at the last 12 months
1388
01:32:04.360 --> 01:32:08.680
or so you can see that three Americans hostages,
1389
01:32:08.680 --> 01:32:10.680
two American Hostages have been released
1390
01:32:12.330 --> 01:32:14.500
after negotiations.
1391
01:32:14.500 --> 01:32:15.333
Really?
1392
01:32:15.333 --> 01:32:18.163
Yes, namely Sergeant Bergdahl in Afghanistan,
1393
01:32:23.106 --> 01:32:27.606
Tio Penos in Syria and a female Adi Walker in Nigeria.
1394
01:32:30.460 --> 01:32:34.610
And in the same time you have had two or is that two
1395
01:32:34.610 --> 01:32:38.430
or three, but several French hostages who have been killed
1396
01:32:39.440 --> 01:32:40.980
by the abductors.
1397
01:32:40.980 --> 01:32:42.770
So this is a perfect illustration
1398
01:32:42.770 --> 01:32:45.960
that you have to go above the public discourse.
1399
01:32:45.960 --> 01:32:50.630
Oh and the appearances that you have some countries
1400
01:32:50.630 --> 01:32:53.410
negotiating and some others not negotiating.
1401
01:32:53.410 --> 01:32:57.460
The reality is that you have a case by case assessment
1402
01:32:57.460 --> 01:33:00.143
and sometime it is possible to negotiate.
1403
01:33:01.220 --> 01:33:03.276
And sometime it is not.
1404
01:33:03.276 --> 01:33:05.137
And sometimes there will be negotiations
1405
01:33:05.137 --> 01:33:09.273
and sometimes I won't be any, and this is the reality.
1406
01:33:14.430 --> 01:33:16.650
And can you give us some indicators
1407
01:33:16.650 --> 01:33:19.597
on why some think it is more valuable to negotiate
1408
01:33:19.597 --> 01:33:22.840
and why not?
1409
01:33:22.840 --> 01:33:25.890
I mean, some hostages have a higher profile.
1410
01:33:25.890 --> 01:33:30.790
And sometime, I mean, at the time of my release
1411
01:33:32.010 --> 01:33:37.010
IS was not seen as such a threat to the west.
1412
01:33:39.190 --> 01:33:43.305
It was still seen as a local player
1413
01:33:43.305 --> 01:33:48.183
for limited extent, if I was taken today
1414
01:33:50.230 --> 01:33:55.230
or if I were still in their cells today
1415
01:33:55.410 --> 01:33:58.510
my fate would probably be different because IS
1416
01:33:58.510 --> 01:34:03.030
is not as willing to negotiate as it was at that time
1417
01:34:03.030 --> 01:34:07.280
because France entered a coalition against them.
1418
01:34:07.280 --> 01:34:11.720
And because the public opinion at the time of my release
1419
01:34:13.780 --> 01:34:18.120
it was more important to have, the motto,
1420
01:34:19.087 --> 01:34:22.560
"Bring our guys back, bring our guys home"
1421
01:34:22.560 --> 01:34:25.147
was more important that the motto,
1422
01:34:25.147 --> 01:34:28.210
"Well, make some concessions to this tourist."
1423
01:34:28.210 --> 01:34:32.691
But nowadays, especially after what happened, the ETA events
1424
01:34:32.691 --> 01:34:36.960
in January, 2015 in Paris and the attack
1425
01:34:36.960 --> 01:34:40.030
on Charlie Hebdo Newspaper.
1426
01:34:40.030 --> 01:34:43.970
Now, the public opinion has changed and would be very much
1427
01:34:43.970 --> 01:34:46.460
against any negotiations with a group.
1428
01:34:46.460 --> 01:34:48.120
So this is what I'm saying.
1429
01:34:48.120 --> 01:34:50.640
It's case per case.
1430
01:34:50.640 --> 01:34:55.550
It's every hostage situation has its own temporality
1431
01:34:55.550 --> 01:35:00.550
and depends on mood as a result of a multifactor assessment
1432
01:35:01.982 --> 01:35:06.982
and diverse country can take a very different decision
1433
01:35:09.030 --> 01:35:13.233
at another time, points in the time.
1434
01:35:14.253 --> 01:35:16.920
When you were released, had anybody been beheaded
1435
01:35:16.920 --> 01:35:20.680
before you were released just to get a timeframe for the--
1436
01:35:20.680 --> 01:35:22.938
When a hostage been killed.
1437
01:35:22.938 --> 01:35:23.771
One had been killed?
1438
01:35:23.771 --> 01:35:24.604
Yes.
1439
01:35:24.604 --> 01:35:25.437
Did you know that while you were...
1440
01:35:25.437 --> 01:35:28.090
Yes, they told us it was not public,
1441
01:35:28.090 --> 01:35:32.690
but they showed to us his picture
1442
01:35:36.080 --> 01:35:41.080
and they sent it to some of our relatives by email,
1443
01:35:41.970 --> 01:35:43.510
including my wife
1444
01:35:43.510 --> 01:35:45.660
his name was Sergey, was a Russian citizen,
1445
01:35:46.617 --> 01:35:51.400
his name was Sergey, he was a Russian citizen.
1446
01:35:51.400 --> 01:35:55.840
And his case has been disclosed by I think
1447
01:35:55.840 --> 01:35:57.790
an inquiry of news, the New York Times.
1448
01:35:59.540 --> 01:36:01.087
So at that time he was the only one
1449
01:36:01.087 --> 01:36:02.763
who had been killed?
1450
01:36:03.650 --> 01:36:04.483
Yes.
1451
01:36:04.483 --> 01:36:06.810
So the people who were killed after
1452
01:36:06.810 --> 01:36:08.290
came after you were released?
1453
01:36:08.290 --> 01:36:09.123
Yes.
1454
01:36:09.123 --> 01:36:11.160
I was released in May, in April
1455
01:36:12.870 --> 01:36:16.237
and the--
1456
01:36:17.120 --> 01:36:17.953
James Folly?
1457
01:36:17.953 --> 01:36:20.743
James Folly, it was end of August.
1458
01:36:21.660 --> 01:36:24.680
And the last one was Kayla Mula.
1459
01:36:24.680 --> 01:36:27.150
Who's death was revealed
1460
01:36:27.150 --> 01:36:30.880
I think last February was that, or March.
1461
01:36:30.880 --> 01:36:32.570
I saw it was a different time.
1462
01:36:32.570 --> 01:36:34.011
Yes.
1463
01:36:34.011 --> 01:36:35.573
Will you go back to Syria?
1464
01:36:37.530 --> 01:36:40.006
I have a family prohibition.
1465
01:36:40.006 --> 01:36:42.210
(Peter chuckles)
1466
01:36:42.210 --> 01:36:44.560
If Obama stopped using drones
1467
01:36:44.560 --> 01:36:48.660
or if Obama close Guantanamo, would that make a difference?
1468
01:36:48.660 --> 01:36:49.817
Do you think?
1469
01:37:00.577 --> 01:37:02.793
I'm very much a human rights oriented.
1470
01:37:04.440 --> 01:37:08.780
So I believe that the drones war
1471
01:37:10.330 --> 01:37:14.440
was to indiscriminate
1472
01:37:14.440 --> 01:37:18.180
and therefore are contra predictive, but this being said
1473
01:37:19.250 --> 01:37:24.250
I have had also opportunities to discuss
1474
01:37:24.680 --> 01:37:26.130
with security people
1475
01:37:26.130 --> 01:37:30.420
and peoples with experts in military issues.
1476
01:37:30.420 --> 01:37:35.420
And I do believe that some limited use of drones
1477
01:37:37.760 --> 01:37:42.474
but drone is still a weapon that can prove
1478
01:37:42.474 --> 01:37:43.883
its efficiency,
1479
01:37:47.330 --> 01:37:49.730
but it shall be limited.
1480
01:37:49.730 --> 01:37:51.883
It shall be extremely limited.
1481
01:37:53.520 --> 01:37:56.030
And the way it has been used so far
1482
01:37:56.030 --> 01:37:59.570
especially in Yemen only contributed to the destruction
1483
01:37:59.570 --> 01:38:02.600
of the Yemen State and afterwards as a country
1484
01:38:04.610 --> 01:38:08.610
because the Yemeni States lost all credibility
1485
01:38:08.610 --> 01:38:13.610
by allowing such killing campaign on its own soil.
1486
01:38:16.260 --> 01:38:17.660
It's also very challenging
1487
01:38:17.660 --> 01:38:21.553
for the both Pakistanians, Afghan governments.
1488
01:38:25.650 --> 01:38:29.283
I would not say that drones should be eradicated
1489
01:38:31.948 --> 01:38:34.133
from the weaponry,
1490
01:38:34.980 --> 01:38:39.980
but the use which has been made
1491
01:38:41.460 --> 01:38:46.460
especially by the CIA so far was a hugely counterproductive.
1492
01:38:49.740 --> 01:38:52.920
And they made that clear to you as you told us?
1493
01:38:52.920 --> 01:38:56.960
It's more my assessment as a witness of the war
1494
01:38:56.960 --> 01:39:01.960
of world affairs and after discussions with different
1495
01:39:05.260 --> 01:39:06.963
war experts, I would say,
1496
01:39:08.635 --> 01:39:13.635
on this field, looking at Guantanamo, it was only a mistake.
1497
01:39:15.894 --> 01:39:17.520
Has no justification
1498
01:39:17.520 --> 01:39:22.520
just like extraordinary renditions were known of very early,
1499
01:39:25.550 --> 01:39:27.160
as early as 2004
1500
01:39:29.180 --> 01:39:34.180
or three even, you have the first papers in the press
1501
01:39:34.370 --> 01:39:37.280
talking about them and revealing some details
1502
01:39:37.280 --> 01:39:39.023
of these renditions.
1503
01:39:40.383 --> 01:39:42.480
And this information have been used
1504
01:39:47.660 --> 01:39:51.860
for the propaganda of these Jihadists.
1505
01:39:51.860 --> 01:39:56.150
It's very difficult to tackle these issues
1506
01:39:56.150 --> 01:40:01.150
because when you address and when you raise publicly
1507
01:40:05.557 --> 01:40:10.113
the mistakes made by the West, in the war of terror
1508
01:40:11.530 --> 01:40:14.380
or when you challenge the war on terror
1509
01:40:15.640 --> 01:40:20.610
you will find many people in your own country saying
1510
01:40:20.610 --> 01:40:25.593
that you work for the other side, which is totally crazy.
1511
01:40:27.364 --> 01:40:31.010
I just aspire to a better world
1512
01:40:31.010 --> 01:40:34.920
living in peace and security for everyone
1513
01:40:34.920 --> 01:40:39.070
but security for everyone means also security
1514
01:40:39.070 --> 01:40:40.835
for the Syrian people in their streets
1515
01:40:40.835 --> 01:40:43.220
or the Yemeni people in their streets.
1516
01:40:43.220 --> 01:40:46.490
Even when they have a drone flying above the head.
1517
01:40:46.490 --> 01:40:47.740
If Guantanamo was closed
1518
01:40:47.740 --> 01:40:50.760
if Obama actually closes the Guantanamo
1519
01:40:50.760 --> 01:40:51.790
before he leaves office
1520
01:40:51.790 --> 01:40:55.040
which doesn't seem likely, but if it did happen
1521
01:40:55.040 --> 01:40:59.397
do you think that would make a difference to the crisis?
1522
01:41:01.080 --> 01:41:01.913
Yes.
1523
01:41:01.913 --> 01:41:02.746
You do?
1524
01:41:02.746 --> 01:41:06.332
Long-term one, a long-term difference.
1525
01:41:06.332 --> 01:41:07.610
What does that mean long-term difference?
1526
01:41:07.610 --> 01:41:09.753
It means if we weaken the propaganda.
1527
01:41:11.460 --> 01:41:13.540
When you fight to rhythm
1528
01:41:15.520 --> 01:41:20.023
most of the time if you fight it frontally
1529
01:41:22.640 --> 01:41:24.950
it will be ineffective.
1530
01:41:24.950 --> 01:41:29.950
Terrorism is like a swamp infested with frogs.
1531
01:41:30.870 --> 01:41:34.623
So let's say you have a swamp full of frogs.
1532
01:41:36.010 --> 01:41:39.283
One of the options is to take your gun,
1533
01:41:40.590 --> 01:41:45.590
take hay boots, go to the swamp and shoot every single frog.
1534
01:41:47.370 --> 01:41:52.010
It will take you a lot of time and you will have lots
1535
01:41:52.010 --> 01:41:54.880
of bullets, a lot of effort, a lot of resources
1536
01:41:54.880 --> 01:41:58.180
and you will have a swamp full of bullets at the end.
1537
01:41:58.180 --> 01:42:00.433
And I'm not even sure let's guess.
1538
01:42:01.890 --> 01:42:03.220
Can you tell me if you try
1539
01:42:03.220 --> 01:42:05.620
you can succeed to kill every single in a swamp?
1540
01:42:06.670 --> 01:42:10.990
So the other solution is to go at the source
1541
01:42:10.990 --> 01:42:12.093
and dry up the swamp.
1542
01:42:14.640 --> 01:42:17.960
So the best way let's say you have terrorism here,
1543
01:42:17.960 --> 01:42:22.140
either you confront it directly currently
1544
01:42:23.560 --> 01:42:27.773
and most of the time the bullets will go back at you.
1545
01:42:28.760 --> 01:42:33.760
Or you're just circumvent it and dry it out.
1546
01:42:37.040 --> 01:42:38.173
Especially on the,
1547
01:42:41.451 --> 01:42:45.603
by drying out all of its propaganda arguments.
1548
01:42:46.990 --> 01:42:49.890
And instead of that extraordinary rendition of war
1549
01:42:49.890 --> 01:42:52.750
on terror, invasion of Iraq, invasion of Afghanistan,
1550
01:42:52.750 --> 01:42:57.750
Guantanamo, all these are weapons of recruitment for them
1551
01:42:59.300 --> 01:43:02.410
and we provided them to them.
1552
01:43:04.980 --> 01:43:07.503
Lou, did you wanna follow up on something?
1553
01:43:11.007 --> 01:43:11.944
No, just go ahead.
1554
01:43:11.944 --> 01:43:13.694
Johnny Did you?
1555
01:43:13.694 --> 01:43:15.780
Go ahead, I think I'm good.
1556
01:43:15.780 --> 01:43:18.167
So I think you just said it
1557
01:43:18.167 --> 01:43:22.514
but as we close any advice or follow up
1558
01:43:22.514 --> 01:43:23.440
that you'd like to share
1559
01:43:23.440 --> 01:43:26.950
with the audience for the future and that I didn't
1560
01:43:26.950 --> 01:43:29.950
or maybe I didn't ask you that you would just like to share?
1561
01:43:31.570 --> 01:43:34.093
You kind of just said it, but if you want?
1562
01:43:34.093 --> 01:43:35.350
Yeah.
1563
01:43:35.350 --> 01:43:37.930
I have a very important message to the world.
1564
01:43:37.930 --> 01:43:38.830
Let's hear it.
1565
01:43:38.830 --> 01:43:41.504
In three words, read my book.
1566
01:43:41.504 --> 01:43:44.421
(Panelists laughs)
1567
01:43:46.840 --> 01:43:49.150
It would be Jihad Academy and it would be released
1568
01:43:49.150 --> 01:43:51.660
in the States in January 16.
1569
01:43:52.926 --> 01:43:53.759
January 16
1570
01:43:53.759 --> 01:43:54.592
Yeah.
1571
01:43:54.592 --> 01:43:57.170
In French is it coming out soon?
1572
01:43:57.170 --> 01:44:00.554
It came out last March already.
1573
01:44:00.554 --> 01:44:01.387
Oh.
1574
01:44:01.387 --> 01:44:02.220
Already in France.
1575
01:44:02.220 --> 01:44:03.220
And who's the publisher?
1576
01:44:03.220 --> 01:44:07.080
It's Bloomsbury in for the English version.
1577
01:44:07.080 --> 01:44:10.660
And I going to launch the Arabic version end of October
1578
01:44:10.660 --> 01:44:15.660
in Beirut and the English version in the UK, early November.
1579
01:44:16.443 --> 01:44:18.051
Oh, and you'll tour.
1580
01:44:18.051 --> 01:44:19.801
So yeah, we, we can--
1581
01:44:20.916 --> 01:44:25.916
Its pretty much, what I told you during this interview,
1582
01:44:28.360 --> 01:44:32.180
is developed in this book.
1583
01:44:32.180 --> 01:44:35.642
So I would be very happy to send you a copy each.
1584
01:44:35.642 --> 01:44:38.450
I would love to have her copy selling by you.
1585
01:44:38.450 --> 01:44:43.102
I hope that you come to San Francisco for that.
1586
01:44:43.102 --> 01:44:44.600
Will definitely hold it.
1587
01:44:44.600 --> 01:44:46.920
If you come we'll definitely hold something
1588
01:44:46.920 --> 01:44:49.000
for you at the law school.
1589
01:44:49.000 --> 01:44:50.310
Cool.
1590
01:44:50.310 --> 01:44:52.850
So nothing else, we will adorn.
1591
01:44:52.850 --> 01:44:57.850
Okay. We need 20 seconds of a room tone.
1592
01:44:58.160 --> 01:45:00.826
Yes. Okay, go ahead.
1593
01:45:00.826 --> 01:45:02.626
Okay, begin room tone.
1594
01:45:16.980 --> 01:45:17.813
End room tone.