- A little louder. - Okay, this is Rose Norman, and I am interviewing Diana Rivers at Indian Springs State Park, on May 24, 2012. And, this is for the Southern Lesbian Feminist Herstory Project. - Rose, you asked me when I got involved, and I moved to Arkansas in '72-- - From where? - From New York. - New York City? - New York State. Stony Point, New York, where I lived in a community. It was a mixed community, sort of artist and musician community. Moved to Arkansas, we started a community on land. It was a mixed community. At a certain point, probably two or three years after, a sort of wave of feminism came through. And, most of the women, except for one, all the women there, either left and came out, or came out and left. And, at a certain point, I had to go up to New York, because my son Kevin had died. And when I came back, the women were all eager to take over the land. But there was a lot of anger, they really wanted to take it over. And I was probably older than most of them, and I kept saying, you know, "What do you mean by women? "Is it going to be open to everyone? "How are you going to deal with the men who are there? "Are you going to deal with them fairly and kindly?" Anyway, we had an absolute horrific meeting. By my, you know, what I think was a terrible meeting, in which all this anger came out at these men, who were really just well meaning, nice hippie men. And, it ended up with the women taking over the land. And, I'm not sure we want all of this. - What I'll do is transcribe, send it to you, and you can edit whatever you want out. - Yeah, but I will say to you that women were suddenly empowered, and acted out in the worst possible ways on each other. And it went on for quite a while. In fact, at some point I went out West with my girlfriend, and when I came back, the two communes that were on the land, were feuding with each other. One of them had guns, the other one thought that the way to deal with things was to make a big circle around the place and chant. Which felt like voodoo to the women who had guns. The interesting part about this is that there was an Ozark woman's land trust in existence. And they were having a meeting, and they heard about this stuff that was happening at Sassafras, and they got in their cars and trucks, and they showed up, and they said, "This won't do. "You're endangering the women's land movement, "You cannot behave this way. "We won't have it. "And, this group you go over there, "this group go over there, for a week" "do not speak to each other and do not "have any interaction, and just think about "what you're doing. "And we will be back in a week." And the amazing thing is when they came back in a week, part of the discussion was who was going to cook what for Thanksgiving dinner. We got over ourselves. But, there was a lot of infighting among women, and a lot of horizontal hostility. And, if you felt that you had been really oppressed it was like a ticket to be the oppressor. And this is all my reading of it. But I think other women would say the same thing. It was that abrupt empowerment and with no example of how to handle it or use it. Except the oppressors' examples. Anyway, that was ... And that community went through many turnovers. - So this is Sassafras, was Sassafras the name of the mixed community when you first started it? - Yes. - And it continued to be called Sassafras after - Yes. it started splitting, And becoming lesbian? - Yes. - Was it every wholly lesbian? - Oh, yeah! Yes. - And they actually kicked the men off? - Yes. And also, at that time or earlier, a piece of that land, the land on the other side of the creek, became our co-herors. And it was land for women of color. But supposedly of all colors. And our co-herors is still in existence, and what was Sassafras is now Wild Magnolia. And I was the last person signing off, who signed it over to, our co-herors is the Umbrella Organization. Wild Magnolia is under that umbrella. And they are making an Earth school there, and they are bringing kids, L-B-G, you know whatever our initials are. Queer kids, from Little Rock and different places for Summer camp, and different things are happening there. And Sun Hork at Orka Ears could tell you a whole lot more about that history. Without my destroying it. - Brianna knows about this because I have interviewed her about land groups and she knew some of this history, - Yeah - and talked about it. - She was on Sassafras. - Okay, so when I transcribe this I'm going to send you what she told me too. And maybe I'll send her what you said and we can compile them or at least put them next to each other. - Anyways, some of us left there. Me and Cedar, we just, what happened was ... First all the men got kicked out, then pretty much the white women got kicked out. And for a while all of it became land for women of color. Cedar and I left, and we ended up starting another community. - Okay. - Which is OLHA, Ozark Land Holding Association. - And that's not a commune? - No. And Sassafras was not a commune. - Okay, so it wasn't communally owned land? - It was communally owned land, yes. - But it wasn't operated like a commune? - Well we didn't all live in one building, we were sort of scattered in different places on the land. You know, you might choose this spot, I might choose that spot down there to build my little hut or cabin, or whatever. - So you all had to agree on anything that affected like where you build your house, or something? - Pretty much. OHLA is definitely a community. We each had our own five-- It was 240 acres. There's 20 members, or there were 20 members. - Originally or eventually? - We mostly for a long time maintained a 20 member-- They weren't all necessarily living on the land. Yeah, they were living in town, or they had land out there. Land changed hands because women would buy in and then they'd decide they didn't ... - How many lived on the land at its biggest? - Probably 12. And I don't know if you ask me now, because some women are very involved with the land, but they also have a house somewhere else. Several of us that's true of. So we now probably have 15 members, when we're looking for new members. But it's 240 acres of land and each of us has five acres, so that leaves a lot of common land. - So you deeded each person five acres? - Under a contract with the ... It's called a land use contract, with the community. You sign that land use contract, and it has all the community rules in it. And then you owe a monthly payment, which covers house insurance, taxes, gas for the main house, utilities for the main house, boat upkeep. Those are the main things that the money goes to. House upkeep, the main house. We're always trying to hold that main house together. We're probably going to have to get a new roof. (groans) So that's the land piece of it. - Okay, - And I could answer, you know, this may just be a preliminary thing, I could answer a lot more questions. - Well I'm real interested in the land, the land movement, the lesbian land movement. Was this lesbian or not? - Which? - Or just women? - OHLA? - OHLA. - It was definitely lesbian. - Okay, so it started as lesbian. - It started, and in fact that was part of the legacy of Sassafras, this is just for lesbians, we are starting this as a lesbian community. - I'm wanting to do a-- - And in fact, when we started it, such awful things had happened at Sassafras that we were very, very tight when we started. And in terms of the main house, nobody could claim space there. If you were building your house you could maybe unroll your bedroll there. Well we got it after a while that that wasn't working. And now we do things by contract. If I was doing major repairs on my house, and I wanted to live in the main house, I would, at a meeting, ask for a contract, we have two potential rooms, and in exchange I would pay extra on the utilities and I would maybe, mow the lawn and do something else, you know, do some work around the house. But that room would be mine for however long we had contracted for. - And did you say this is part of the lesbian separatists' back to the land movement, at that point? Or was that just coincidental? - I don't think ... I think some of the women at Sassafras were much more separatists. I don't see the women at OHLA as separatists. We all have men in our lives, we have invited men to the land. When I moved there I said I will not live anywhere where my sons are not free to come visit. In fact my son, Shawn and my daughter-in-law just came and spent a little over a week. We had a potluck that actually was for somebody else, but we made it a potluck for, you know. And I think Shawn was the only guy in the room. But he sat down next to Shell, who's very butchy, and has all these sort of physical experiences, and they got into this great conversation. I don't think any of us would see ourselves as separatists, and yet, in fact, we're living on lesbian land, which makes ... You know what I mean? - I do. - But, you know, when women were so vehemently separatists, I kept saying, I don't have that luxury. I have three sons who I love, and who are part of my life. I can't be angry at all men. I can be really angry at the male dominance system, which also harms men, but I cannot-- I mean there are men who are my brothers, there are men who have given their lives to make the changes that we want to see in the world. I can't, you know ... And besides which, this was all snotty white women who were looking down on the men, and I'm thinking, what would women of color say about you? You didn't ask to be in that white skin but you are! A guy didn't ask to come with that equipment, but there he is. So, don't get me started on that. - Yeah, well that was-- - And I understand separatism, and I understand that the women that I was meeting at first, it's like women's politics. I mean, I have been involved with civil rights and peace politics, way before. This was their first introduction to politics. And if you look at history, and you look at how men as a class have treated women as a class, it's a miracle we speak to any man, and don't shoot them all. If you look at the history. And so for a lot of women it was like, for the first time, they were looking at this history, and it's as if all men had joined the Taliban or something. - So, what you're saying is you came from this background, these women at Sassafras didn't, by an large. - No, they were much younger than I was. I was much older. - How old were you? In your forties? - My marriage split up when I was 38, I got married at 18, I was 38, and I probably was 39 or 40 by the time I came down to Sassafras. And involved with a much younger man, who was probably 15 or 20 years younger than I was. It couldn't have been 20 years younger, he might have been 15 years younger. - And these other women were about his age? - Yeah, yeah, or younger. - Were these land dykes in the sense of women who wanted to get away from patriarchal culture? These young women, and young men I guess they were too. - Yeah, we wanted to make a land community. - Ah, but wait a minute, it was mixed, so they weren't dykes to start with. - No, no they weren't. - So it was more like-- - And these women weren't dykes to start with. They came, it was a mixed community. That's what I'm saying, women came out and left, or left and came out. But in a fury. When we had that meeting with the men, I think if we had sat down with them in an NVC kind of way, and said, "Listen, straight community is collapsing. "Women need a turn, a chance to see "what we can do with this. "Why don't we just amicably shake hands and ..." And I think the men would have had a little caucus and said to each other, "Hey, it's time to bow out." But women were so angry. If you can give me something that it means that you own it, if I can grab it from you, then I own it. If you can give it to me, then it's yours to give. - Like abortion rights that they gave us. So where did they come from these women, that were straight and not political? But wanted to live on land? Did they come from the North? - Yeah, a lot of them, some from the South. I can't track that back for you. - So it wasn't particularly Southern women who were doing that? - No. - But it was women who moved to the South? - Yes. - That went on to a sort of a border South southern state. - Yeah, that's why I said, I don't know if I fit into all of this. - Well, I think that that community is an important one for demonstrating some things about what happened to the land movement. - And OHLA has been in existence 31 years. And we do consider ourselves part of the land dyke movement. And when there've been land dyke gatherings, we've actually talked about doing one at OHLA. it doesn't look like that's going to happen but we've gone to land dyke gatherings. - So 1981, 31 years ago. - Yeah, yeah. - Okay. I guess one thing I want to try to clarify is where it's-- - Where it's Southern? You see that's (coughs) - We would say it's in the South. - (coughs) I'm a Yankee. I will never be a Southerner. - Well so was Lorraine Fontana, but she was, what, president of ALPHA. - Yeah. - Which was Atlanta. So, doesn't, I don't think we're trying to-- - Is Lorraine the woman who's here doing transportation? - Yes, the woman doing transportation. She still talks like a Yankee. I mean, strikingly, you have a more of a general American accent. Lorraine sounds more like she came from New York. - Yeah, yeah. So, now this whole other thing that we're talking about, which is creating venues for women. - Cultural activism, yeah, let's talk about that. - Okay, the University of Arkansas, for 10 years, had a conference and festival, women's conference and festival, it was a long weekend. (coughs) Sorry. (coughs) And the first year they had it, my friend Georgia and I put in a proposal for doing a women's art show, called Everyday Alters. And we actually mentioned the Goddess in it, and all kinds of things, I think I still have that paper somewhere. And the tip that students, it was in the students' union, so they had a say over it, and they turned it down. And I was in Kansas City, furious about this being turned down. I was talking about WomenVision, and my friend Linda Laurel said, "Let's do it in Kansas City." And I said it was impossible. I didn't live in Kansas City, I was just up there visiting my girlfriend, and I couldn't imagine a venue, and I went on and on with all the reasons we couldn't do it, and Laurel persisted, and found a venue. And we pulled together a little committee, and we did WomenVision, which was an incredible success. We had a big art show in this basement gallery. It was a non-juried art show, and I did what I've done ... On principle we said we're not going to jury this. But what I did, is if I knew a particular artist who I thought did really good work, I chased quality. (coughs) Which made space for other people to put in whatever they were going to put in. And the first year we called it Everyday Alters, and we wanted to do an art show that was the way women show art in their homes. I mean, a lot of our homes are almost like a museum, that we might have our favorite rock, and a doily that our grandmother crocheted next to a painting that our very talented friend painted, and then, you know, a sculpture and so on. So, we put together, that first show we put together a show that was like a series of alters. And we softened the room with fabric, and then we did a grand show. We had a stage put up, and often used the best-- One year we had a three or four panel screen. A really wild woman sort of motif kind of thing. And we used that in back of the stage. But we put on performances, did readings, did music, dance, workshops, whatever else could happen in that space, and we considered the art show to be the womb in which these things could happen. We did that for three years. The third year, we had it in three different galleries, because it had outgrown the one gallery. And there had been a big snowstorm or blizzard, and we had already rented the city trolley system. So we got people from place to place in spite of the snow. And, we had hoped that we would leave a legacy where other women would pick this up and do it. But actually we had burned ourselves out, and it did not get picked up. Though we've sometimes talked about it since. And we did it once with a whole new group of people, called Full Bloom. - Again, or was that one those three years? - No, this was later. This was either the next year or the year after. Full Bloom, and we did it in Eureka Springs. And then I think Full Bloom disintegrated. And meanwhile, I don't know how I did it, it makes no sense to me, but I put together the art show at the Woman's Conference for most of the 10 years that it took place. And that's at the University of Arkansas, at the Student Union. Simultaneously, it was the same month, so I don't know, it doesn't make sense to me, I don't know how I did it, but somehow I did. And then-- - So, that was 10 years from '91, so they were doing that Women's Conference till 2000. - Something like that. - At University of Arkansas. - Yeah. And I don't have an exact-- See Elord will have, she'll have much better dates and all of that. (coughs) And then after that, it was a few years after that, my friend Joni came to me and said, "I want to do a traveling women's art show." Well, it never did travel. But we did a show at the Orpheum, called MatriArts M-A-R-T-I arts. MatriArts. Probably like WomenVision. Probably capital M, capital A, one word. We did it at a place called the Orpheum. Which, when we did the first one, they had black plastic on the walls. And they painted it for us to be able to do this. It was a color I hated, but, we have artwork coming in, and they are still putting in the baseboards, painting the walls. There are garbage cans all over the room full of construction trash. But, we put on a show. And same thing, we had a stage, we did music, we did all kinds of wonderful, magical things. So that ran for three years, and again, we ran out of steam. And we tried to do MatriArts for a fourth year, I think we had also lost our venue (coughs). I think David was out of that building by then. So that ran for three years. And then, there's a gap in time, (laughs) and a bunch of us were out doing a moonlight paddle on this little lake, kayaks and canoes. And I had been thinking about an art show. I come at it, always from the art place. I was thinking about an art show, and I wanted to see a Goddess show, but then I thought, Goddesses and angels, Goddesses, angels, and Amazons. So that was our first Goddess production thing. And what I was going to say about all being out on the lake, I had been thinking and thinking about this, Goddesses, angels, and Amazons; Goddesses, angels and ... So, we're walking away from being in the lake, and my friend Vic is there, about to get in her truck, and I went over and I said, "Vic, how'd you like "to do a Goddess festival with me?" And I think at that point Vic had nothing much big coming up in her life. And she said, "Sure!" Not knowing, I'm sure, what the hell we were walking into. So we called a meeting to see if this was even remotely possible, and I think we had about 15 women at the meeting. And we proceeded for three years to do this. And each year it was a terrible scramble finding a venue. Four years! We actually managed to eke out a fourth year. Terribly terribly hard to find a venue. - So it was a different venue every year? - It was a different fucking venue every year. The first year was the woman who was setting up shop in this big old building, that had a leaky roof, and a this and a that. And she was going to open up in April, and we wanted it for March. I mean, I was talking to her boyfriend, Brooke was in the back room, pacing back and forth, talking on the phone, and we kept saying, "We'll come back later." And he goes, "No, no, no, "She's very interested in feminist things." So finally, Brooke walks through, we sort of toss this to her, like throwing her a ball or something, and she says, "Yeah, sure fine. "And I won't charge you rent." And she's gone, somewhere else. So, we said, okay, we'll pay utilities. And we paid her $500 for utilities. This building, I mean I remember at some point, people were coming to see the building, "The roof is leaking on this great big room "where we're going to be hanging all the art." But, they had a roof on. They never got a decent front door on there, they did that afterword. It's still her shop, but once she was, you know-- We were there before she put the runway in and before, you know, when it was still an open space. And we knew we only had it for one year. And then the second year, we got-- - Is that the Orpheum? - No, the Orpheum was long gone. - Okay. - David was, I think, trying to buy it, and renovate it, and I think he couldn't hold it together. - Okay. - So the Orpheum was gone. There's a period of years in between. - Oh, so the first one was at the Orpheum, and there were-- - That was MatriArts. Three years of MatriArts at the Orpheum. - Okay. And then this is something else. - This is Goddess Festival. - This is Goddess Festival, okay. - Goddesses, angels, and Amazons. This is Goddess Festival. And the space was so huge that I was in a panic, and went around and got way more art than we could hang. And we hung it all! (laughs) It wasn't easy. Oh, and also, all of these shows have included crafts also. I don't know if WomenVision did the same way. But definitively the Goddess Festival has always included crafts. - Well that's a whole thing in itself, getting crafts. - It's a whole thing in itself. And the second year (coughs) we did it at the old Bank of America building, which was a super space. Part of it was, and part of it wasn't. The vendor part of that worked really well. We called it Vendor Village, and they were able to leave their stuff up permanently. In the first venue they couldn't leave it up. The third venue, every time it was like, we're almost about to do this and we have no venue. So the third venue was up in a moral pipe area. Every venue had its drawbacks and its good things. It was in a moral pipe area, next to Cici's pizza. This is all Goddess Festival. And this last year we did it at OMNI, O-M-N-I, whatever that means, and its our local peace, justice, and ecology organization. And they own a house, which is not a huge big house, so this was way smaller than any venue we have had. And I didn't even try and do an art show. But I got in touch with Lydia Ruyle, who does these incredible Goddess banners, and how she wants them shown. And how she dealt with it was that she packs up. We had 31 banners to hang. (exclaims) And they could be as wide as some of these screen sections. - What is the name of the woman, Lidia Ruyle? - Lydia Ruyle, she lives in Colorado. So she's not a Southerner either. Lydia Ruyle. I mean the shock to me was that we were doing a Goddess Festival in the Bible Belt. - Of course it's a college town, that would make it possible? - Yes, I would not, and it's not a progressive college at all and I don't think we have bunches of college students, but it's not only a college town, but Fayetteville is a center of back to land folks. People who came, they bought land, maybe they couldn't stay there, had to come into town to get a job. But it's that kind of area, whereas Rodgers, Spring Dale, Rodgers, Bentonville, much more conservative. Fayetteville is the only area I would live in there. It's way too conservative. - But those were all Ozarks towns? - Yes, north of us, on a line going up 71, those are the towns north of us. - Much more conservative. - (coughs) Much more. Fayetteville is the liberal town. Big women's community there. Though, when we tried to get the city council to say they would not discriminate against gays in hiring practices in the city, not private, city, we got voted down, 60 to 40. If it had been central Fayetteville, we would have won hands down. But there's all of these little satellite areas, you know, track housing is going up all around, new people coming in. Isn't that a shocker? And see, the city council voted for it. It's a no-brainer! - This was a referendum, then? - Yes, the right wing pushed it into a vote. Like, I can vote on your rights. - I know, that's Rachel Maddow keeps pointing out is, as soon as you start trying to get a majority to vote on minority rights, - Yeah! - it's never going to get it. - I mean, we would have the rights if it came to, you know, we wouldn't have to be - If it was a popular vote! - having a vote! - It could be won by a popular vote. - It's like can we get all the slave owners to vote for freedom for the slaves? - Exactly. - Probably not. Yes, what right do you have to vote on my rights? Anyway, so, what more can I tell you? Right now, and see, again, this is what's happening locally. We have had, and this will be in all our stuff, we have had a woman's potluck once a month, potluck, we had a woman's library that's been dismantled because of lack of interest. You know it was very exciting when we first put it together. - When was that, how long was that? No, you'll get all that stuff from her. - Oh this is all in her stuff, okay. - Yeah. I'm trying to think of other things that were happening. Right now, the one thing that happens once a month is HOWL. And Mindy Knott has been here, you know her. - Yes. - Okay. Mindy came here, she did HOWL other places, she came here and she started HOWL here. And it's been wonderful, and it's once a month. The third Sunday of the month. I just went to a HOWL before I came here. (laughs) And that's happening at OMNI, which is the peace and justice center. Was happening at the bookstore, it just kept getting crowded out and crowded out. So, it's great at OMNI we have the space, and its lovely and peaceful. So, but you're looking for what was happening back then. Al was really a source. There was a newspaper called Hard Labor, which was a feminist paper. You'll pick all of this up from her. That was definitely very political. The next thing that came out was Up and Coming, which was political and also telling you what was happening with that. - It's another newspaper? - Yeah. Not a newspaper, you know. - Underground ... - Yeah. - Bulletin? - Yeah. So, I will definitely send you Al's thing, and you can see where all these things fit in. So, all I'm telling you is other things that you'll slot into this. There was a women's center, at the University that they dismantled. I mean literally dismantled, put in different closets. Rape crisis, and, because there were too many lesbians involved. It was Town and Gown and the University wanted us out. So they took away the women's center. - That's an understatement. - Yeah. - Does the University of Arkansas have an LGBT group? - It probably does. I'm probably not the right person to ... For a while there was something called the Razor Dykes, and I know that sounds really bizarre, people have a, "Razor Dykes, ah!" That's because the razorback pig. The razorback is the school mascot, so everything is razor this, razor that. So, you tell somebody up North, "Oh we have this great organization called the Razor Dykes." (exclaims) "What, they're going to cut you?" No, it's not about that. So that also will be announced. I'm just trying to give you little keys to what history you'll get from there. - Well go ahead and tell me about what you did before you came to Arkansas. You said you were involved in civil rights and peace activism. - I was a little bit involved in civil rights in CORE, and then CORE decided they didn't want any white folks in it, which I understand. (coughs) And at that point I was sort of backed out. But I did a lot of peace activism of different, you know, demonstrating, going to Washington. I was involved for a little while, it was sort of an underground group. I mean we didn't do anything violent. - This is the anti-war groups? - Anti-war. - Yeah, no more. - Yeah, no more. It looked like it was going to fucking go on, and on, and on, forever. So we did some real civil disobedience actions. In New York City we chained off 34th street and dropped leaflets out the window. We chained off the Westside Drive, we let banners go in Grand Central Station. That was a lot of fun. That was an incredibly coordinated action, because we had these big boxes with four big helium balloons. And we attached tissue paper banners to them. It's just not anything that's relative to what you're doing. And we didn't paint on them because paint was too heavy. We used bleach. We used something that would take the color out. And we all came into Grand Central Station-- Now you'll be arrested instantly. They'd think you were doing some kind of terrorist act. But we all came into Grand Central Station with our boxes and we didn't speak to each other. And I was with my son Kevin and his friend Mark. And the police came over, and they were hassling. It looked like they were going to have to open the box. In fact, our agreement had been that we were going to wait until a certain time, I think it was 5:30, like maximum commuter afternoon time. Or, when the first balloon went up, like if we were forced to. And, I think, I'm not sure whether it was Kevin and Mark's box, but somebody's box got opened and the balloons went up. And our friend Jack, who had been organizing a lot of this came running in at the last minute. The balloons were already going up. We can't get them down. - Oh, no. - They go up to the ceiling, this is Grand Central Station. And we had a radio that was playing war stuff, and war sounds and casualty talk, and it was some kind of news thing about Vietnam. And I've forgotten what else we did. And then another time, and this was the last action that we did, we let pigeons loose in Grand Central Station. And we said it ahead of time that we were going to do that. And we got arrested for cruelty to animals. And they wanted us, they didn't want to arrest us, they wanted us to pay the fine and get the hell out of there. And Vera and I kept saying, "No, I'm not paying a fine." "They're going to put you in jail with those women." And they thought of us as really nice middle class woman. "You don't want to be in jail with those women." And we kept saying, "I know, c'est la vie." I mean we did this, and you arrested us, and you know. So they gave us all these warnings, and it doesn't work, and they cart us off to jail. And they did a whole body search, and the woman who was the doctor, she was so funny, she's Hungarian, she said, "Vell, vhat did you do?" and I told her, you know it was a peace demonstration, "Don't use pigeons next time, pigeons carry diseases. "Pigeons are dirty." She didn't tell me not to do this, she said, Don't use pigeons. - Don't use pigeons! (laughs) - And she also told me that I had a tumor, which 10 years later I had taken out. She said, "You know of course, you have this tumor, yes?" (exclaims) No, I didn't know that. Then we got in with those women. They were hysterical. "You did what? "Come over here, come on, come over here, honey. "You want to hear what she did? "You let pigeons, what is the matter with you? "You did what? "Oh my god!" You know, they thought we were the funniest thing going. And they just loved up on us. They did not be mean, and of course we were not in there, we were in there literally overnight. They wanted us out. The system wanted us out. They came to tell us the next morning, we were out. I said, "We had a two day sentence." "Yes, this is the second day, out!" But the women were so funny. They all came round and wanted to hear our stories. What had we done, how did we get there? Is that our car that I heard? - I think I heard Kathy. Kathy? I want to go back. - It sounded like Kathy - Because I would like to be at open mike. - Yeah, okay.