Amelia Thorpe: Yeah, except for their own separate [indistinct 00:00:01] their own— Julie Zwibelman: And when was that? Amelia Thorpe: '60 or '61. Julie Zwibelman: Were you there? Amelia Thorpe: I wasn't there, but it's celebrated [indistinct 00:00:18] the year of demonstration here. Julie Zwibelman: And was that SNCC North Carolina? Amelia Thorpe: That was a minister. A young minister [indistinct 00:00:19]. He was definitely at the Heritage Center last year—Moore, Reverend Moore. That was his name. Julie Zwibelman: What surprised you going deeper south on that trip? Amelia Thorpe: I guess I wasn't expecting that core of highway patrolmen to come. And they were ready to beat our heads, and to put us into jail, because we had accidentally gone into the regular toilet facility. Julie Zwibelman: Was that your only encounter with— Amelia Thorpe: That was my only encounter down there with anything [indistinct 00:01:36]. Julie Zwibelman: And did you stop and stay places on the way down? Amelia Thorpe: No. We did the riding straight through. And until we got past Birmingham, they saw us riding in the bus together, so they gave us a whole separate bus and we were delighted, really, because that meant that we could stretch out, because we was just riding commercially, and under that [indistinct 00:02:12], they gave us a whole separate bus just out of— Julie Zwibelman: Just in Birmingham? Amelia Thorpe: Out of Birmingham down to Mexico City—no, to Monterey. So we got to Monterey. Then we switched to the Mexican buses. But they said Mexico City. Julie Zwibelman: And who was the group that— Amelia Thorpe: There was an American [indistinct 00:02:45]. Julie Zwibelman: And how did you get involved— Amelia Thorpe: I was working on campus, and I lived in [indistinct 00:02:51]. So I saw it as an opportunity to go to Mexico. At that time, I had not been outside the United States, and I was ready to travel. It was a wonderful trip. Julie Zwibelman: Did you get any different perspective on United States—? Amelia Thorpe: Oh yes, oh yes. Indeed so. The first time I had ever seen another country was really the cartoons. Julie Zwibelman: Yeah. Amelia Thorpe: Of the United States, how, especially they were capitalizing on the Civil Rights Movement. And what was affecting was their own condition in Mexico, which was very [indistinct 00:03:38] at the time. And the Mexicans, who have more Indian ancestors, rather than Spanish Castilian ancestors, definitely are at a disadvantage. And they were very proud of what was not Indian, even in a small village. And it was the same who were basically Mexican planters, with real farms. Farms, for the most part. Julie Zwibelman: So the cartoons were— Amelia Thorpe: Oh, they sold the Uncle Sam looking like Sambo. Oh, it was silly, really. I mean, despite all of that, I always felt good to be an American. And they were almost offensive, except apparently you could see that the people in Mexico really suffered too, but at that time, they didn't have the avenues, for peaceful demonstrations—and they still don't. They still have to kill and have a rebellion to bring about any kind of change. So despite that flaw in our society, we had had the wonderful advantage of a leader, Martin Luther King, who being the leader who made his whole life based upon non-violent demonstrations, they still had the power to move and to change. Amelia Thorpe: Now unfortunately, it ended his life, and so did his mentor, Mahatma Gandhi. But he certainly gave the people a path, a hope, and a way so that it raised to change society. Whereas in Mexico, as I say, that still is not particular. They still have to revamp the standard way of things, the killing, the assassinations. They still got after that work to change the state. Julie Zwibelman: Did you find yourself defending the United States? Amelia Thorpe: Somewhat, yeah. We all do it, because we forget. If you've gone through some bad things however—yeah, you just do. You don't realize how nasty you are until you get outside of the country. And then you have to talk and have dialog with people that are very angry, and are hateful but really of their own situations, yes. Julie Zwibelman: Did you ever travel anywhere else outside the country? Amelia Thorpe: Yes, I did, in 1970, I went on a visit to six countries in Europe. And I tell you, by the time I got back, and the plane was flying over New York, and I saw the Statue of Liberty, I was so happy. And it was a wonderful trip and I thoroughly enjoyed every bit, but you tell me about one cathedral more, and I would have said, "No, thank you." Yeah, I've had it with cathedrals and all of that. Just take me back to the USA. But now I'm fairly ready to leave from North Carolina. Amelia Thorpe: Three years ago, I went to The Bahamas for the first time, and that was my ultimate [indistinct 00:07:49]. Yeah, yeah, the water down there, oh, gosh. So yeah, I do. I really like [indistinct 00:08:00]. As they say, we gain a broader perspective. And once you do that, you just can't be settled in your narrow ways anymore. Have you traveled? Julie Zwibelman: Yeah. Amelia Thorpe: Yeah? Julie Zwibelman: Did you find that race was an issue in Europe when you were traveling? Amelia Thorpe: No, just Americans who don't speak the language—French—if you don't speak French, French people don't like that. In Mexico, I didn't speak Spanish, but I did not feel it was a problem like it was in France, or even in Italy. When I'd speak in Italian, it didn't seem to be as big a problem as it was in France. Yes, or Germany or Holland, Amsterdam, or even Switzerland. It was only in France when I got the feeling. Or not just a feeling, but I got direct almost confrontations that just wind up, just kind of feeling disdainful about, because you don't speak French. Julie Zwibelman: What was your favorite thing— Amelia Thorpe: Place? Florence, Italy, the [indistinct 00:09:33], really beautiful, I think I would say that was my favorite place. Julie Zwibelman: This is different than travel, but— Amelia Thorpe: Oh, okay. It's all right— Julie Zwibelman: We were talking in class, one of the women who was interviewed was talking about a secret game between North Carolina Central—or, between North Carolina College and Duke in the 1940's. There was a basketball game. Amelia Thorpe: Oh really? Julie Zwibelman: Yeah. And I was wondering if you had ever heard of secret other, either sporting events, or other things that were going on secretly that were really— Amelia Thorpe: No, because like I say, by the time I got involved with Duke students, they were just very open, you know, like with the church organization. We made common groups together of students who belonged to the church organization. The only thing maybe, and this wasn't so secret, but my minister, I think I mentioned him, Reverend Miles Mark Fisher? He was well recognized and respected by Duke professors. I think he was allowed to use the library, I think, and that would have been very, very quietly, though. I think he mentioned it just once in one of the sermons that he had been allowed to use the library. I know that he had enough respect that [indistinct 00:11:17], the Baptist, came to preach at White Rock Church. Julie Zwibelman: A White preacher? Amelia Thorpe: [Indistinct 00:11:24]. Mm-hmm. Julie Zwibelman: And what was the community's response to him? Amelia Thorpe: Oh. The church community was very pleased. Julie Zwibelman: Were there ever any integrated sports teams or sports events or anything like that? Amelia Thorpe: No. Was that in the forties, there was this—? Julie Zwibelman: There was one secret game, yeah. Amelia Thorpe: Yeah. In the forties, NCCU had a great—was it the basketball team? Julie Zwibelman: That they won. Amelia Thorpe: Yeah, they have a great, they haven't had teams like that since. Maybe a few, but the forties, the early fifties, was the peak of their basketball. Julie Zwibelman: Another thing that we had talked about in class a little bit is Ann Atwater and CP Ellis, are you familiar with them? Amelia Thorpe: Mm-hmm. Julie Zwibelman: Did you ever when the whole controversy was going on, and they were working together? Did you hear about that? Amelia Thorpe: Yes, Ann Atwater has always been outspoken, she's a tremendous actor, she is a legend in the Civil Rights Movement. But yes, I heard about it, but I didn't hear them, see them get together and talk about it later as friends, until that happened. Julie Zwibelman: Another thing, did you see a big change in the tobacco workers you met? When—while the tobacco industry was really going down, did you see a big change? Amelia Thorpe: Mm-hmm. Working in a tobacco factory was the reason my grandfather came to—Durham offered the average laborer the best place to work. One of the best places to work in North Carolina. And after the Korean War, the government said that any company supplying the federal government or the army had to be integrated, had to have equal employment. All employees had to have equal access to certain jobs, like begin to have jobs on the machines and to be supervisors. They made very very good money. They had sharing plans. Many retired, early retired tobacco workers lived at the same level as— I know a couple people. And they lived very well. They got a very big sum. Amelia Thorpe: When the tobacco factories started closing and moving, whole communities were affected. Fortunately, this community was left okay with the college. They were teaching, and North Carolina Mutual. But the West End, and Walltown and North Durham, they were communities that were very dependent because there was many, many of them who worked for the tobacco company. And then the American Tobacco Company left. That's when those regions collapsed, and as I said, it affected the persons in North Durham and Walltown. So as much as I agree, and I think it's true that smoking is hazardous to your health, and it leads to cancer, it seems that as soon as Black people started suddenly having good jobs in the factory, and being able to live well that's when the whole cancer thing came out, and the factories stopped making more cigarettes. And they moved away, and they cut back. Amelia Thorpe: And still, cancer is an incurable disease for many people. But as I said, mostly, not nearly as many people are smoking, which is good. It is good, except that when the adults stopped, the teenagers took it up. And teenage girls! Which leads—which is why as many women die from heart attacks, and have lung cancer as men. And the first lung cancer that I knew of were men. But now, the records show that as many women have lung cancer. And lung cancer is not by—you can have lung cancer and you have never smoked a cigarette in your life, but smoking every day has been, for a long period of time, it has leads to lung cancer and other forms of cancer. Julie Zwibelman: Do you think the tobacco industry became more vulnerable because Blacks were getting a lot more power in the community? Amelia Thorpe: Oh, that little theory is just a private thing that I think sometimes. You think, "Why? What did cause this to happen?" And being African American, and having experienced some of these things, those kind of thoughts come to mind, and that's kind of normal. But the tobacco industry and tobacco farmers, you'll notice that some very prominent Black tobacco farmers who have lost or sold their land. In North Carolina, it still isn't enough. The Research Triangle Park cannot make up for what the tobacco industry created—the economy. Amelia Thorpe: So it's a great challenge for North Carolina, to find hireable occupations for people who aren't going to make them responsible—that's what they're going to say. They hopefully can be trained to do work like they did in the factories. But they are not going to college. A whole lot of these kids, they are not going to college. And at this point, there is not a viable market to make up for the gap the tobacco industries has left, a big gap there, yeah. Amelia Thorpe: Hospitals. Duke Hospital's changing for everybody, and so there's more people that—you know, Duke employs more people than any other institution in Durham, but they still can't employ everybody. And everybody can't work at the Research Triangle Park. So hopefully somehow, some other—and some new business is supposed to be coming to the Research Triangle Park, I don't know the nature of the work, but it's going to hire about 2000 people. Julie Zwibelman: Yeah. Do you think Duke's role in the community has changed? Amelia Thorpe: It's starting to change. I think in all honesty, Duke wants to be more involved in the community. I think they've had to become more open to, what's the name now, diversity? Always Duke made some commitment in the Black community, like the BN Duke Auditorium. The Duke families, like I say, they've always been—some, some kind of overture, but I think now, with the new president, I think that there is a little aggressive commitment to get involved in the community, make more contributions in the community. Julie Zwibelman: As far as Duke University, is there a certain perception— Amelia Thorpe: Oh yeah. [indistinct 00:20:45]— Julie Zwibelman: —about—what was that? Amelia Thorpe: It's wealthier. But I think someone called it the little princedom of North Carolina. Julie Zwibelman: Do you think those perceptions still— Amelia Thorpe: Form our distinct—? Yeah. I think the latest incident related to Black workers who were being displaced, and they assigned—I think they're in court now. That's the first time ever that any African American, blue collar worker, had taken—a non-professional worker had taken Duke University to court. That was a big thing. Yeah. Julie Zwibelman: You said last week that you were working at the polls? Amelia Thorpe: Yeah. Yeah, I had a pretty good day. We got at least fifty percent of our registered voters out. Which is out there. In Durham, we got the Justice what we wanted to get, Bill Bell got—pretty happy, the reelection results. And our new person turned out. Again, I think I'm missing—Durham is still so Black and White and the larger world, it's not like that. And hopefully, there's more Hispanic and Asians that they'll be some other [indistinct 00:22:22] coming in, so it's become a little less Black and White. Julie Zwibelman: Do you think we have become that? Amelia Thorpe: At this point, because one of the biggest things and most difficult situations here in Durham County is the school system. And it's still Black and White—what with the bus and all the other people. Just to be about Black and White. Julie Zwibelman: And what did you think about the national election? Amelia Thorpe: Oh, I wanted Clinton to win. I just, I don't say sarcastically. [Indistinct 00:23:06] his presentation, I thought his presentation was bad. I think it's bad for somebody to run to be a national leader to be mean like this. He didn't obviously know how to have any other proponents, and that's too bad. But Americans still love him, he is president. There are many things about Clinton that we may not agree with or whatever. At least he has an upbeat, pretty on paper. He is intelligent. Amelia Thorpe: I think his meanings around—nobody says before him, nobody says—but certainly you can have a smile on your face if you want a million people to vote for you. You can be gracious to voters. I don't think he knows how. I think he thought just on who he was and he was sure he could win, he was the president. Somebody tell him, told him a few things, you know. Yeah, so I was very pleased that he won. Now I got to see who all his cabinet [indistinct 00:24:32] that gives him an opportunity to hopefully put some African Americans in. Amelia Thorpe: I personally think he should give—the man who ran and lost to Jesse Helms? Julie Zwibelman: Gantt. Amelia Thorpe: Gantt. I think he should give him some kind of reward, I do. The man is brave to get out there and run against Jesse Helms anyway because Hunt did not do it against him. And [indistinct 00:25:07] wouldn't have run against him. He said, "I will never give up my nice TV show and my comfortable position, because I'll get out there and run against someone." I would imagine he has no respect for him whatsoever. So Mr. Helms has got in there [laughs], and it is. It's awful. It's awful, but that's North Carolina's legacy. Got an awful lot of people who they believe in, that's it. Because as long as there's money in the pot, what he wants to get done, he does get it done. And nothing lasts forever. [laughs] Not even Jesse Helms, no. There's some—there's a stopping point for him too. Julie Zwibelman: Do you see national too being as far as like cabinet, like, local, state, and the cabinet, do you think there's other other national changes or policies that you think would really—? Amelia Thorpe: No. I mean, because California sets the tone, and they have. They ended Affirmative Action and they legalized marijuana for medicinal purposes. I heard [indistinct 00:26:32], Black author, on the radio the other day and she was saying some sound statements, she made sound statements. And she said that now parents need to try to teach their children that medical purposes are not pleasurable purposes. Not marijuana is something you should enjoy, lighten up. And that because Affirmative Action isn't in here that more serious considerations have been planned, that you have to be ready for tutorial services, for mentors, for collective and recognizing people with potential and really preparing them, so that they break out, compete for their own positions and jobs and contracts and—which is a harsh reality. Julie Zwibelman: [indistinct 00:27:48]. Amelia Thorpe: Personally, I know that affirmative action was not unfair because the other way had been selected, so now we're trying to be selected on this way. Okay, so now that's just the past. Somehow you're going back to a more equitable method. However, you still have this group of people who are not. And so it's going to be up to us to really, really be serious about identifying and monitoring and tutoring the group of children, people who really have the abilities, that really have the desires and the opportunity to fulfill those desires. And realize that their potential—higher, fulfilling their potential. Julie Zwibelman: Yeah, California, does it seem very different from when you was there? Amelia Thorpe: Oh, it's more conservative. I have seen it become much more conservative. I came on the edge of the [indistinct 00:29:01]. It's very conservative. Julie Zwibelman: Can we—just going back to California, you said you were involved in the NAACP there? Amelia Thorpe: A little bit— Julie Zwibelman: What issues were they focused on— Amelia Thorpe: They were focusing on having a weak leader. [Indistinct 00:29:24] and no matter right or wrong, NAACP leaders, as long as they is outspoken and taking risks, and made themselves known, and this particular person had not done that. And had an opportunity to support some affirmative action that had been going on, and just kind of clear, let it slide. And the people who came out of the old days of the NAACP during the Civil Rights Movement, that just was not the onus that the NAACP was supposed to take, it was a mutual thing. Julie Zwibelman: Did you feel because California was a lot more diverse, was the nature of the Black community there very different? Amelia Thorpe: Oh yeah, sure. Most people who were born in California, they had no idea really, they couldn't. With the Civil Rights struggles of the South—being denied access to eating places, the toilets, the first floor of theaters, the schools, and they didn't know. They had no concept of that stuff. Only the ones who were older who had come out of the segregated South really knew. That's what I would say. And most of these people who were in college when [indistinct 00:30:55] was president were older people, older than me, yeah. Julie Zwibelman: Was California as open as it was supposed to be? Amelia Thorpe: Yeah. Julie Zwibelman: Yeah? Amelia Thorpe: Yeah. Julie Zwibelman: What about when you went up north? Do you think that was open and— Amelia Thorpe: Yeah, I liked San Francisco better than Los Angeles, because it had the structure. I like the little structure in a city. LA is beautiful, but it is wide open. It's just wide open, [indistinct 00:31:30] it's Hollywood. It's the glamor of—and I'm sure there are a lot of people there who work there, but Hollywood sets the tone. [indistinct 00:31:46] and the high rises, and the business, the banking. Unfortunately, native San Franciscans are very unhappy about the Manhattan invasion of San Francisco. So many New Yorkers have come in, and are trying to run things. Julie Zwibelman: Do you think that Durham is having any kind of—? They say that more people from New York are coming in, do you see it changing Durham as far as that goes? Amelia Thorpe: Oh yeah, Durham has changed a whole lot. I think part of this class of people is a result of more people coming here from North where class is more recognized. It seems like—oh yeah, everything now is at the shopping centers and the shopping malls. It's further away from the older communities. People are more about their personal agendas. In fact, our old church, White Rock, just adopted an elementary school. And there are teachers in the school, retired teachers, who are going to go into the school to tutor. I hope they're teaching to read, because my sister teaches 11th grade, and she says it is very sad, 11th graders do not know how to read. So of course they can't write anything. And they've gotten all the way to the 11th grade. Amelia Thorpe: So there's always that struggle for balance. I think there are many people together, that a lot of community work has to be done. It just has to be done, and at the same time, there are many other people who live as far out in the north and as far out in the south as they can, and all they fuss about is, "No, Durham County and Durham City should not be one municipality." But it definitely should be. It would help the revenue, they're about to tax the city people to death. And as I said, there's no tax-producing industry, like the tobacco industries was, that has replaced the tobacco industry. Julie Zwibelman: Do you think that they will combine? Amelia Thorpe: Eventually I think so, but it's going to be a big fuss, because that's why people move way out in the county. They pay less on goods. Fabulous houses, they don't have to pay taxes, and don't have to be bothered with city bonds and all that kind of stuff. But it causes the decay of the inner city and it happens over and over. You see this happened in the really huge cities like New York, and Detroit, those cities. In fact, a city no larger than Durham could allow that same kind of thing to happen, but it's because the tax base is dwindling and people are moving further and further away from the inner city so they won't have to pay higher taxes. Julie Zwibelman: What do you define as inner city here? Amelia Thorpe: This whole area from about two, three miles radius north and south of Main Street. mm-hmm. Julie Zwibelman: What direction do you think the community's going? Like what do you see are the future issues? Amelia Thorpe: The school issue is a continuing one. Affordable housing and jobs. Job training so they're prepared. When they finish high school, they have done well to finish high school, and they need to be ready to be trained to have a good paying job. So those same basic issues. Julie Zwibelman: When you were growing up, did you see those as issues when you were growing— Amelia Thorpe: No, but we were segregated, you see? And as long as everything was segregated, it was all right. Julie Zwibelman: Do you feel more just content now? Amelia Thorpe: Yeah, absolutely, which is good. It had to come. It had to come, yeah. Durham is in many ways, a lot less friendly, and yet particular groups are trying to do community things. But in general, it's a less friendly city. Urban renewal just literally and physically split the city in half, and destroyed a part of the city. And there will just always be feelings about that. Julie Zwibelman: You said last time, that urban renewal, even before it happened, a lot of the businesses were moving, you said, or changing? Amelia Thorpe: Before actual urban renewals, the people that owned a lot of the businesses had grown older, and they were not in a position to buy back and then restore it again. There were just a few who were in a position to buy a new building, within urban renewal structure. Julie Zwibelman: Do you see urban renewal really as the very clear dividing line between— Amelia Thorpe: Urban renewal has just divided the city, and restored part of the Black community. It was substandard, but it was viable because the businesses had the houses behind there. Now you see all this rehabilitation. Some of it was not worth that, but that area could have been re-created rather than building all these housing projects that have just caused trouble. But at the time, housing projects was what the goal was. But that is not a viable, suitable way to have people living. Julie Zwibelman: Are there other things that you want me to touch on or [indistinct 00:39:48]? Amelia Thorpe: In terms of some other positive things, I think our Human Relations Committee is working real hard to remediate some of the hard feelings. I think with our last elections of the commissioners showed that people here don't like mean, ugly-talking, asking people, because Mr. [Indistinct 00:40:21], for all his expertise, he was mean, and he was ugly-talking, and that's not representative of clear thinking, responsible people. I'm sure he knows that now, yeah. Again, it is unfortunate that it has to be—"See, now we got re-balanced, and so we can outvote the two Whites." Yeah, I don't like that. In the reality of what we have to do, that's the way it has to be. So I hope at some point it don't have to be like that. Like if it won't be so Black and White, that the whole Durham community is more Hispanics, and more Asians, and more people, and just making truly this a better city for all the people, and access to all opportunities, yeah. Julie Zwibelman: What is the Human Relations Committee? Amelia Thorpe: That's a city committee that addresses grievances that come up mostly in the city personnel, I think. But in the larger community too. Julie Zwibelman: What kind of issues [indistinct 00:41:52]? Amelia Thorpe: Mostly hiring practice, and not only hiring, but then wages, and then medical benefits, grievances, those kinds of grievances. And I'm sure they play some part in the grievances of these non-professional African Americans at Duke. Julie Zwibelman: Is there anything else that— Amelia Thorpe: No, it's interesting to me that urban renewal, though, has given me an opportunity to talk from a historical perspective. I never thought that I would until I got a little older than I am now. But right within a few short years. Hayti is a historical topic. The face of my larger community did change, forever. Mm-hmm. Julie Zwibelman: How long after the highway went through were there foreseeable, visible signs of change? Amelia Thorpe: It stayed blank, just open space. And there still is a lot of open space up there. But for over twenty years, there was nothing but the highway and the projects, and the street going through. And it was like a war zone, because there was nothing. And then finally they got Hayti Heritage, shopping centers down the hill. And then they built Phoenix Square. And now they're building Rolling Hills. And building some— someone was saying, those houses that they're building right on that hill, if we have another tornado, that house is going to land up in Lakewood Street. Amelia Thorpe: So there's still a lot of monitoring, I guess, that needs to be going on about what kinds of affordable housing are being built. Frankly, I have more faith in the rehabilitation of some of those older houses up on Cleveland Street and near downtown. That section of town than I do the newer stuff that they're building. It's just that those neighborhoods still have not become where working people, a good number of working people live. And they used to be houses for the factory. That's where those communities were, and they were working people. So we definitely need some more industry, tax-payers, laborers in the industry. Yes. Julie Zwibelman: Okay, thanks.