- Mary, thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed, if you could just say and spell your full name? - Mary Preus, M-A-R-Y P-R-E-U-S. - Thank you so much, and are you lay or clergy? - I'm lay. - And what is your denominational affiliation? - Well formally, I am a member of the Ecumenical Community of St. Martin, that's where my church membership lies. And I was born and raised a Lutheran and have worked in a Lutheran church for over 20 years. - Wonderful, okay, that's great. So that is an interesting background. - Right. - Um, great. Could you say a little bit more about the Ecumenical Community of St. Martin's people? - That is the group that began St. Martin's Table, so the Community of St. Martin is the membership group that meets as a worshiping community every Sunday evening. And we've been meeting over here in the Seward neighborhood or over where St. Martin's Table was, on Riverside Avenue for 30 years. - Wow. - So that's a group of people who take as their main focus the non-violent peace making of Jesus, and follow that as a mission. - Thank you, that's great. So, where did you go to school? - College, I'm assuming you're wondering? (Mary laughs) - Yes, that would be great. - I went to college in several different places. I was a slow learner and not a good academic person as a young person, as an adult I got very interested in it, so I've been to several different colleges as a matter of fact, and ended up graduating from Metropolitan State University in St. Paul, as a thirty-something year old. - Well, good for you. (they both laugh) - And what work or ministry were you doing at the time of Re-Imagining, that was several years actually you were involved, so in that time? - Right, right. I have always been in a musical group of some sort. So when the first Re-Imagining community got going, I had been directing Calliope Women's Chorus in the Twin Cities, and was just getting an invitation from Our Savior's Lutheran Church to be their music director. I was a member of Spirit of the Lakes, UCC Church, and part of, you know, a worship team there. I had also been part of a little house group of women that met to sort of do, what I think probably was happening, although I haven't done research on this, so this would be interesting, you know, kind of starting out little cells of worshiping groups as women. And looking at women's history in Christian worship as well as in other, you know, kinds of worship around the world. - Oh, you know, that's fascinating. Tell me a little bit more about that, what your group did. - Well, so I left the church for a long time, like I think a lot of women did, for the very reason that I found it to be completely patriarchal and sexist. And once I grew up a little bit, and realized that I had been steeped in a religious, worshiping life, my father was a Lutheran pastor, and that it was a part of my life that I needed and wanted, I latched on to Spirit of the Lakes and got to that UCC Church. Within that church body, there were some women who were exploring what women might have been doing in world religions throughout history. We gathered then in homes, it was only about, sometimes maybe, six to 10 of us, and someone would fashion something that involved some prayer and some singing, maybe some reading or poetry, some silence, some reflection, and that sparked me again and made me realize what I'd been missing. - So, just to understand, so this was interfaith then? - Right, Christian. - Christian. - Actually it was Christian, but we were looking at it from an interfaith perspective. - Okay, I see. Fascinating, what was the name of the group, do they have a name? - That name didn't have a group, I don't think, I can't quite remember. - Sure. - We might have called ourselves something. - That is really interesting. So, what work or ministry did you do after Re-Imagining? - Well that was when I was called, so to speak, literally practically dragged, back into the Lutheran Church body (they both laugh) by a very persuasive pastor at Our Savior's Lutheran Church, who said to me, "I think you belong here." And I said "no", several times, it was a little bit like quitting smoking, you have to do it several times before it finally takes. Luckily, the co-pastor at Our Savior's was at that time, Janet Tiedemann, and she was a strong feminist, and a pastor from a kind of a cosmological perspective, which I found to be fascinating, and it was her call as well, then that said to me, "I think you can thrive here." - Wonderful. - So that's where I've been. And I've been there for more than 20 years, and I have been thriving. Now in the meantime, I also was just becoming a member of the Community of St. Martin, so this ecumenical community called to me more from the mission part and ministry. That is how I understand Jesus' call to us, is to follow his path of peace and so that spoke to me directly and made me want to become a member of that. Now someone else was leading worship there at the time, so I was part of a music kind of, part of the music group, but I did not, now I am also the worship coordinator for that community. - Oh really? - So what Re-Imagining did for me was to really help launch me into worship leadership, from a lay perspective. - Yes. - As musician and prayer leader and Bible study leader. I've been leading Bible studies at Our Savior's now for more than 12 years, I guess. - Before we go on, I want to hear a little bit more. How did Re-Imagining help you do that, what role did it play in that? - Well, you know, now that you have started asking me this, and I've been thinking about it before we got here for this interview. It had a very big role, but it was hard to describe, I was trying to think about how I would describe it. It was very emotional for me, to be part of all of the conferences I was part of. I think seeing women in full leadership and power around spiritual theological issues, around worship leadership and music leadership and prayer. It was just absolutely stunning to me, and since I was sort of fairly young, you know, in my thirties when it got going, I just found it to be amazing and really strengthening, informing, empowering, absolutely for me. - Yes, yeah. - Luckily I was part of, now I know you might get into this later, but-- - Go ahead, go for it. - Part of some, these communities as you can tell, Spirit of the Lakes, UCC, kind of even on the edge of the UCC Church, the Ecumenical Community of St. Martin is a bunch of peace-niks, you know, so always as part of their mission statement, open to LGBTQ people, and women in leadership, absolutely. And then Our Savior's, which had a more standard, kind of Lutheran presence, but the people there at the time, were very, had just sort of broken that church body open too. So I did not, I felt the support from all around me. I was really lucky in that way. I did not have to struggle, although I think that's probably been strengthening for some women too, the struggle, but I didn't have to struggle from my perspective and my job-- - Yes. - My job was not threatened. My job, if anything, was enhanced. - That's great. - Yeah, it really is. - So, Mary, when and how did you first become interested in feminist theology? - I bet I was interested in it when I was a child. (they both laugh) And actually, I also have to give some credit to my mother. My mother went back and finished her college degree when she was in her fifties, and then in her sixties, she went to Luther Seminary, as a Lutheran pastor's wife, and God, she did not feel comfortable to go for ordination, or you know, I don't know what quite all the thinking was behind that. But she got her MA from Luther, and part of her particular studies was women's studies in the church. So she, all of a sudden, had a library full of feminist theologians, and there it was for me to say, "oh, wow, this is an actual school of thought. This isn't just me saying why is the church so patriarchal and sexist?" - Wow, good for your mom. - I know, really awesome in that period and at that age for her. - Yeah, when would this have been, roughly, what decade would she have gone? - That would probably have been in the '80s, early '80s or late '70s. - Good for her, that's great. So let's move to Re-Imagining, and you were already involved at the first conference in '93. First of all, how did you ever get involved in Re-Imagining? - Well, actually it was that connection between the Community of St. Martin. So within our worshiping group there we had some Catholic, people from a Catholic background, and they knew Madeline Sue Martin, who was the music coordinator and worship coordinator for that first conference. I then, so before the first conference, we asked her to do a little training for the worship and music leaders at the Community of St. Martin, which we did in her home. It's one of the most beautiful, blessed memories I remember from worship leadership. Because from her Catholic perspective, her feminist perspective, her rich training, and experience and gifts that she had, she would bring us around her table, and she would have colors and candles and symbols and rocks and shells. And she would have us together as a small group, just discover what the symbolism of worship that was really going to be meaningful to us and to really explore kind of both the tradition and then, what she was the best at was cracking that open in a creative way. So she would say, "okay, this is what you might do traditionally. Now what might you do today? Or with these colors around you, or this theme that you have?" So she really guided us and then when we learned that, well when, I guess, I got the call from her. So she knew that I was a singing song leader, a choir director and when she got this position doing worship for the first conference, she asked me to be part of that group. - So, it sounds like Madeline Sue was always building on tradition, she knew the tradition and then was moving beyond. - Well she was a worship professor at Notre Dame, so yeah, she knew the tradition well. - Yeah. So what was that process like, what do you remember of it, Mary? Working on getting a ritual ready? - For first one? - Yeah, the first one. - Yeah, the first one was very interesting, and I must say, you know obviously, the first of anything is amazing, because you take so much time and effort. And I think one of the best things about that first conference was the breadth and depth of both the participants and the outcome. There was a broad ecumenical investment, there was also a strong feeling of not having it be white dominated, although a lot of the steering committee was white, and being here in Minnesota, I think that was part of the reason for that, but there was a strong, strong effort to have all women's voices be heard, and that was challenging, it's really hard to do that. And so you run up against a lot of roadblocks, which we did, but we worked through those in ways that were so enriching for so many of us. So we used a lot of music that was different and interesting, newly composed, a lot of creative, creative work. - Yes, yeah. Are there specific moments that you remember from that '93 conference? - Yes, I have to spur myself on with some pictures, because of course for me, in a lot of the conferences it was some of these amazing speakers, when I heard them, that just made my jaw drop. I mean, I have since learned to know some of them more, and now that I'm looking at this first one, I'm just thinking, first of all, they look so young! (they both laugh) Because I know some of them now. Yeah, it was, I mean, just looking over these pictures, is very moving, because of course, some of these women are no longer with us, and that's touching. And then some of them have made such an incredible name for themselves in the communities that I'm part of, Rita Nakashima Brock, and Barbara Lundblad, I probably know the best, personally. There's women from all over the world, and when I heard Jose Hobday and Delores Williams, you know, when I think of the other, Re-Imagining conferences, you know Mary Daly was, and Alice Walker's daughter Rebecca Walker, as giving her amazing testimony as a bisexual African American woman was just stunning to me, so... Yeah, those things, now as a musician, I remember like, from that first conference, working with Madeline Sue, who was at that point called Sue Side Martin, she gathered a choir that was very diverse and eclectic and interesting, and I remember that being a little complicated, you know, trying to figure out who was leading and what the style was going to be, and, but complicated in a good way. We had a really good time, and got to know really diverse, interesting women. - Amazing, now you were also involved in the 1998 and the 2000, and you became more and more involved in things, so are there memories you have of that? - Well, yeah, as you take on more responsibility, of course then it gets to be a little bit more of a job. So, then I feel I can, you know just thinking about it, feel more the weight of responsibility. I think that the Re-Imagining community was drawn to the group I was part of, Bread for the Journey, because we had made it a focus of ours to do music from around the world, and we'd done a lot of investigating of global Christian music in particular. And because, as I said, from the very beginning, that was always a theme for Re-Imagining, was this world-wide interest in women's theology and what feminists were doing all around the world. That music really fit well, so it was fun to work with the members of the steering committee for those conferences, and like I said, it did feel like more responsibility, but the conferences themselves, of course never have the same impact as that first one did. But they were each rich and amazing in their own way. - Yeah, I'd like to hear a little bit more about Bread for the Journey, because they were so important. How did that group get started? - Well, I think that grew out of the ELCA, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's global mission events and the invitation of the director of that, a woman named Bonnie Jensen, who was an amazing woman also in putting together worship and understanding what richness the world church brought to worship here in North America. So, how for so many of us, we almost need to hear the gospel message from people who are on fire with the gospel, those of us who've just grown complacent and have had it in our background for centuries and don't even think about it anymore. And she encouraged us to really do some investigating into the music of Christians around the world. And so to bring that to the Re-Imagining community really made a lot of sense and we had a good connection there. Bread for the Journey was started really by Tom Witt, and because I was his partner at that point, he asked me to be part of it and he's a keyboard player primarily, and then we called upon other colleagues we know who play a variety of instruments, and love to sing, so that we could do harmonies and put together a little band. - Don't even know, you're a singer, are you also an instrumentalist? - My voice is my primary instrument, and then I also play the guitar and the flute. And then as a group, when Bread for the Journey got started, and I believe it was in the Re-Imagining community that we, or during that time, that we took some little drumming lessons from another amazing woman in the Twin Cities, Colleen Haas, who had her own drumming studio. And she helped us to learn some of the rhythms from around the world, so that we could do some of that music with more authenticity, or at least, a flavor. - How neat. Now you mentioned the backlash did not affect you, in fact if anything, it was, the conference was positive for you, which I'm glad to hear. - Strangely. I mean, you know, other than interesting. - In what way was it positive for you? - Well, I think for me, both the global mission events at the ELCA and these Re-Imagining events, you know, to have, it's like traveling the world. To have that kind of openness and challenge and breadth of experience and just knowledge and wisdom, be poured into your life, at a point where you're really excited and open, welcoming to it, was not only educational for me. I mean, as I said to you when you were talking to me before, I'm not a great academic student in a school setting. But when I'm in a setting like that where I'm listening to people talk and hearing their wisdom and their life experience, I just sucked it up. So it also then helped to establish, for my life, as a worship music person here in the Twin Cities, that I had this kind of global breadth and understanding that I could bring then, to these local communities here, which is such a gift, it's just an honor, it's a real honor and a gift for me. - Wonderful, Mary. Now I'm sure you were aware of the backlash, how did you react to it? - I have little patience for the church institution that struggles with change in such a deep way. And I feel a little confessional about that, because of course, my family has a long history in the Lutheran church and has been a big part of helping to actually form that body and shape it here in the United States and especially in the Midwest. So I have to always watch my impatience, you know, especially talking to people from my family, but just in my own self and remember that institutions always move more slowly than people, individuals of course, but even groups of people can move much more quickly. Which is what I think the Re-Imagining community was able to do, was to step out of some of those institutions and then just fly. Not that it didn't encounter stumbling blocks itself, and not that there isn't dissension amongst women who are feminist theologians. But to be able to just take that trajectory and say, "where could we go, if the institution was not holding us back?", was really what happened there. I felt so deeply saddened by hearing of women who lost their positions and lost their tenure or their job, you know important, well-paid jobs, and had to kind of start over themselves. That was to me, just tragic. So I think those church bodies made a mistake, I mean, I think they lost some valuable, valuable gifts. So that saddens me. - Yeah, and I think you're already answering the question, but I wonder if you want to say anything more. How would you account for the backlash, I mean institutional's resistance to change, is there anything else that you think was going on? - Well, the male fear of women's power, so all the weird interpretations of what we were doing with milk and honey and breasts and you know, images of God. And you know, that is all so bizarre to me, because of course, much of that imagery is ancient which of course, a lot of Christian imagery is as well, and has borrowed from, so it wasn't so strange, but it was that we focused on that and then that became, that was lifted up. And I think that was just really threatening, not only to men, but to some women as well, who were steeped in traditional Christian images and values. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, good, good. Mary, how would you define Re-Imagining? - Yeah, you know, makes me want to, I was looking at these files earlier, when I thought we were meeting, and I saw a really good (they both laugh) definition in one of the newsletters, and now I can't quite remember it. I think that the word itself, of course, says what it's doing, so it's imagining God and the body of Christ and it's re-imagining it, because we are, like I said before, we're not discarding the tradition, but we're taking the tradition and really digging into it to find the richness of its feminine imagery, of its strong, feminist values for love and peace-making and compassion, for world peace, you know, for just all kinds, I mean, that's one of the things from Re-Imagining that I remember feeling to be so stunning, and of course, really inline with my, with my theological interests, and that is how much it was about world peace from a women's, mother's, sister point of view. You know, just a lot more than I thought it would be in that regard. So Re-Imagining, Re-Imagining, kind of, I would say the whole body, the worshiping, studying, theological, living, breathing, body, of Christ in the world. - Beautiful, I'm glad you didn't find the written one, that was great! (they both laugh) As you look back on it, how would you say, 'cause you were involved in planning and participating, how did feminist theology affect the process of the community, the way it functioned? - As I recall, I believe there was a strong emphasis on consensus. As complicated as that is, because I've done that in a couple other working groups that I've been in in my life, that weren't related to Re-Imagining. I know just what a long draw-out complicated process that can be, really listening for every voice, and not making a decision until every voice has really been considered. It's arduous. So I think we did that more and less at some different points in time and depending on what, you know, working group you were part of. But it was always emphasized through every conference that I was part of, and the steering committee I thought, (coughs) excuse me, had a real emphasis on not operating in a hierarchical way. - Mm hmm. - So that was beautiful to be part of. - Yeah. You mentioned, you used the word complicated here, what challenges would you say were faced by the community during its 10 years of existence, and how were they addressed? - Obviously the challenges of people's personal struggle within their own, other jobs and church bodies and authorities that they had to with, so there was that. Within the Re-Imagining community, I think there was some of the typical challenges that small groups encounter: burnout, aging out of some of the people involved, people who felt a strong commitment to Re-Imagining, but didn't necessarily want to take on any leadership role, maybe some dissension, although I don't really remember a lot of that, actually. Women kind of disagree with what they, I think the mission went amazingly and kind of ministry of Re-Imagining remained quite clear throughout those 10 years. Which is great. - It is, that is wonderful. You've kind of addressed this, but I'm going to ask it and see if other ideas come to your mind. What aspects of Re-Imagining were most significant to you and why? - Yeah, as I said, lifting up the power of women. The knowledge and wisdom and power of women within the church. - Mm hmm. - I've just been doing some reading lately, about the ancient church in Ireland coming up against the Roman empire when they were making those interesting church decisions in the eighth century, and it's just stunning, to see, you know, what happened with kind of male dominance within the Catholic Church at that point. So anyway, not to get too far back in history, so reclaiming and re-imagining women's strength, wisdom and knowledge in the church, which is so ironic, isn't it, when you think of it now, because now we talk about, "oh, it's just all women in the church." Or I'll have men say to me, "women have a more natural affiliation to the church." Well why in the world shouldn't they be running it then? Or directing it, or you know, helping to lead it? If women have throughout the ages, had this kind of wisdom and knowledge of what it means to have a spiritual life for the family. Yeah, so it only made sense to me. There was some, for me the whole Re-Imagining thing was like a "ah-ha!" moments the entire time, like yes, yes, yes! I could just say, you know. (they both laugh) And then of course, yeah, so the challenges of women thinkers, who would come up with, not only just kind of brilliance in their words, but then, the emphasis that the Re-Imagining community had on this international community, so you got these influences from cultures that were really different from American or European culture, and those were stunning. You know, I wish I could think of something in particular that jumped out to me right now, because I've had so many global Christian experiences in my life, they get a little bit mixed up together. But, yeah, the images of God as mother and God as birthing, creative, cosmology in the world of the word and wisdom, you know, being one, all of that just changed for me, the way I look at the Bible, the way I lead worship, they way I look at music, it's really fundamental. - Yeah, well that brings me to my next question. Which is, how did you involvement in Re-Imagining change your perspective on feminist theology and or the church? - Mm hmm, yeah. Well, and I would have to say that this is kind of the same as feminism in general in our culture right now. You know, the question about what happened to it, like, people will say, "what happened to feminism?" Well, so for me, in the communities that I move in, which I recognize are really off on the left progressive end, and I am sometimes a little chagrined about that, because I don't know that it's healthy for me to stay in that little safety zone. The rest of the world, obviously from our elections that are going on, are operating in a much different way than I do in my circles. So, for me, it was like, "oh, feminism just moved into the world and became widely accepted and part of who we are." Well, that was my little world, and of course, I don't think that's true. So I think it was a backlash, so it's that whole thing about one step forward and two steps back. So there was a backlash within the church. However, I would have to say that the GLBTQ movement has helped to move also a lot of the feminist agenda forward as well as the anti-racist agenda. So, praise the Lord, praise the goddess, we are all, you know, working together to make for a world that is valuing the wisdom, knowledge, gifts and leadership of all people, regardless of any of those things that I don't even look at anymore, so it's hard for me when I get, even into a conversation with people about, "oh, well she was a woman who the head of a church all by herself," that I think, "yeah, I mean..." Or you know, "can a transgender person be a pastor?" And I'm just like, "well, why couldn't they?" I mean, it's just, for me, like I said, I get kind of impatient about that. - Do you think any of this is the legacy of Re-Imagining or do you think mostly the backlash was effective in... What do you think? - Hmm, in moving the feminism into the church, or? - Yeah, was it, did Re-Imagining succeed in doing that? What is the legacy of it in the end, would you say? - Oh absolutely, I think they succeeded. I think the movement succeeded, you know, to some of us it might be to a smaller degree than we had hoped, but it's just that incremental and it's in there now. I mean, if you look at, well 'cause of my perspective with music, you know, hymnity of the church now, the, a lot of churches are still really resistant to it, so you can't discount the fact that there are small rural churches for example, all around the world that are still using old resources and still want to do the same thing that they did a hundred years ago. But, for the church moving forward, change of language in hymns, definitely. Change of language in worship, I mean, I'd have to say that in the Christian context, the UCC Church, has obviously been in the forefront of that, because they started doing it before anybody else did. But in almost every denomination now, that has, it's just mysterious to me though, that it's still only 30, in the 30 years, somewhere for most of the main Protestant denominations that women have been ordained. It just, I mean, if you look at that, that's not very long-- - Right. - In church history, so... - That's true. - So to have the Re-Imagining movement in the midst of those 30 years, makes such a strong impact, has been such an incredible blessing and legacy, gift of that community. - Great, oh that's wonderful. Couple, two final questions. What do you think Re-Imagining means today and I don't just mean the Re-Imagining community, but I mean, what needs to be re-imagined still in church and society? - That's the big question! That's the one we're asking ourselves all of us who are leadership in churches that are caring about that and thinking about it. - Exactly. - What does it mean to re-imagine church today? As in the body of Christ as what I would say. Because what I see are a lot of different expressions out there now, it's not as homogeneous as it once was. And so, then I think what it means is what unites us and what allows us to be different and diverse and interesting and still fit into the body. So that's what I'd have to say. Like, we're back to sort of house churches and giant mega-churches and still some kind of little brick on the corner churches and you know, within that, what I would hope, and this is where, you know, like I said, one step forward two steps back. You know some of those communities are actually going backwards in the conservative way that I would say, they're still very male, very hierarchical, very patriarchal, God is a king, we're going to heaven, and that's sort of the end of the story. So that's troubling to me, but I think that the groups that feel they're moving into the new millennium and the new world, are all asking themselves, "what does this look like now, how can we be welcoming and open?" It's not as easy as that, though. That just sounds like some of that kind of cliched language that we've been using, so I'm struggling with that question. I'll tell you right now, my answer to that is, we're struggling with that question, and I think it's gonna be a really good struggle. But I don't know that I really see very clearly, what that's going to look like. - So what is it that keeps you tied to the Christian tradition? - Mm hmm, yeah. Well I think that struggle is pretty fascinating actually right now, because of so many interesting things happening. And because I see brothers and sisters in the faith struggling together to... Well what keeps me in the faith is, what keeps me in the Christian faith, is Jesus, I would have to say. So as a feminist, that's interesting. - What is it about Jesus? - Well, Jesus was a feminist. (she laughs) So there you go. (they both laugh) - In what way, was He a feminist? - Well, Jesus was inclusive. And not only a feminist in that regard, but I think more challenging, almost than feminism now, as I'm talking about the future of the church, is Jesus hung out with the wrong people. And we don't and haven't done that in the Christian faith very much. Isn't that interesting, that we stabilized ourselves in places that were just like us, and made kind of comfortable homes for ourselves. So that's what I think the struggle coming up is all about, is what does it mean to follow, really follow, like Gandhi said, "if Christians really followed Jesus, the world would be a much different place." And much more peaceful for one thing. So if we follow the way of peace and the way of hanging out with the wrong people, I think we could really move into an interesting future, that's why I hang with Jesus. - Yeah, I love it. One last question, the Re-Imagining community is developing a website and part of it's going to be historical, we are digitizing all of the conferences, they're going to be available online, a bunch of different resources. So I'm wondering if you have thoughts about what would be helpful to include in that website. - I would just love to have some of what we've been talking about, like the history, a timeline would be really fun to see. - Okay, great. - Even just a little timeline of events and maybe kind of main names that were associated with them, or ways you could link into who were the presenters-- - Great idea. - And where and when did that happen. - Yeah. - And then, a continuing, almost blog-like conversation about what we've just been talking about, what did Re-Imagining mean then, what was accomplished, or what happened during all those years, and then what's happening as a kind of a outgrowth of all of that amazing energy, would be really fascinating. - That is great, wonderful ideas! Is there anything we haven't discussed that you would like to add? - Well, I do just want to reiterate as we did before we started taping, the legacy of Madeline Sue Martin and just what an influence she was on men and women alike and the people she worked with, so it's tearing me up because she was amazing and she was so ahead of her time. So to have her be leading us into that future was just an amazing, beautiful thing. - Thank you so much. - Well, thank you. - Thank you.