-: And, we are now recording Alison, thank you.
Ah, I'm sorry, we were just talking about Alison (laughs).
Mary, thank you so much for agreeing to be a part of this.
If you could just say your full name.
-: Mary Clark Moschella.
-: Thank you, and are you lay or clergy?
-: I am clergy, ordained in the United Church of Christ.
-: Great, thank you, and when and where were you born?
-: I was born in Orange, New Jersey in 1955.
-: Oh, okay, I'm a New Jersey person, too.
Where did you go to school, -: Uh huh.
-: graduate or Divinity school?
-: Well, I went to Southern Connecticut State College,
not far from here -: Yes.
-: and then I went to Harvard Divinity School
and then I went
to Claremont University School of Theology for my PhD.
-: Oh, okay, thank you very much.
We were just talking about this a minute ago,
but what work or ministry were you doing
at the time of Re-Imagining?
-: I was the Pastor of the First Congregational Church
of Lee in the Berkshires in Lee, Massachusetts.
-: Okay, and what did you do after Re-Imagining?
-: Well, I continued to stay
in the pastorate there until 1996
when we moved across the country to Southern California
and I started school at Claremont.
-: Okay, great.
Now, Mary, how and when did you first become
aware of Feminist Theology?
-: I think when I was at Harvard Divinity School
in the early '80s, from '80 to '83,
that's when I got the words,
(both laughing)
the words for it, you know?
There was some kind of inkling going on,
in me, and I think that it was a,
a fertile time for Feminist Theology when I was there
and I had some great teachers
and Margaret Miles was the first woman to get tenure at HDS
and she was a mentor and still is a friend of mine, now,
and so, that's where.
-: That is wonderful.
You said you kind of had an inkling,
so, I'm just curious, do you remember when you first heard,
hearing it, you immediately responded to it,
that, you know, this resonated with you?
-: Yes, yes, I had been interested in the ministry
and before I went to divinity school,
I did a two-year program
in Northern Kentucky with, called US-2,
which was actually sponsored by the Baptist Church
and I had a lot of experiences as, you know,
kind of getting my feet wet in the ministry.
I was working with three small churches
and I went to a, there was a clergy gathering or something
that I attended and I was asked, "Whose wife are you?"
and "Whose secretary are you?"
-: Oh, my goodness.
-: So, I had a lot of experiences that, you know,
I felt like the Church was pretty sexist and, you know,
I knew there was something wrong with that picture, so...
-: Yes, so you really resonated?
If we could move to Re-Imagining, thank you, Mary,
what was your relationship to the Re-Imagining community?
You attended the '93 conference, is that right?
-: Yeah, I was an attendee.
I think I got a flyer in the mail
and, you know, I had a small continuing education budget
and I decided to go.
(both laughing)
-: Do you remember what led to you, why you decided
to spend that small budget on that conference?
-: Well, it was something about the flyer
that was just very appealing
and I knew that there were gonna be
a lot of international folks there
and, you know, I think I recognized
some of the names of scholars
and it just, you know, it seemed like
just a very exciting opportunity, so.
-: Yeah, well, after you got to the conference,
what do you remember about it?
What was your experience at that conference like, Mary?
-: I had a great time.
I thought it was a tremendous conference.
-: Yes.
-: I remember the round table discussions
that we had throughout and I really liked the format
that when the big speakers were up front,
there were, they would speak for a while,
but then there would be a pause
and there would be discussion at every table
and I felt like it was very participatory
and that everyone was valued, people of different ages.
I liked that it was colorful.
Like, there was, I have this image
of a lot of flowing fabric everywhere
and there was an artist painting during the entire time.
-: Yes.
-: So, there were many things about it that I liked.
It was very interesting intellectually
and there were numerous workshops
that were appealing to me,
so it was a very, what shall I say,
powerful experience. -: Yeah, yeah.
Now, you mentioned you were a Pastor in the Berkshires
at that time. -: Uh huh.
-: What, when you came back from Re-Imagining
to your congregation, did anything happen from there?
(Mary laughing)
-: Well, did anything happen?
I mean, nothing sudden, but (laughs) I think I was,
I think I was empowered in some way.
I felt like energized
and maybe more willing to talk about feminist issues,
to deal with inclusive language, you know,
in a more forthright way. -: Yeah.
-: So, it wasn't like one thing,
but it was definitely,
it made me think
and I think it made me more intentional about my work.
-: And, how did people in the congregation respond?
Did they, was there any particular response?
-: No, I don't think there was any, like, pushback
the way that I heard there had been in other denominations.
(dog barking)
I don't think they were necessarily that aware
of the whole thing.
I mean, I did, like I wrote a report
and I did share my experiences
and I think that Alison and I might have done a couple
of local programs together, -: Oh.
-: kind of talking about it, but--
-: Do you mean, like, to churches or other groups?
-: Yeah, maybe like Association-wide.
You know, we have these,
the regular meetings of the, in the UCC Association,
it's like the wider group of local churches,
-: Yeah. -: so there was some,
maybe some area-wide conferences
where we did a few presentations.
I'm pretty sure we did that,
but Alison also, I think, was leading a group of,
she was holding a group of presentations herself,
so it might have been that,
I participated in one of those,
led one of those for her, -: Okay.
-: so we were kind of spreading the word, you know?
-: Yeah, and what was that like, spreading the word?
-: It was great, I mean, (laughs) I,
I felt really energized and like this was, you know,
something interesting and wonderful
and when I think, you know,
I started to hear about the backlash,
-: Yeah. -: I think that's when I wrote
that paper, Eating the Apple, you know,
(laughs) kind of responding to it
because I felt as if whoever was doing this criticism
obviously wasn't at the conference and,
you know, was criticizing something they didn't understand.
-: So, what was your response?
What did you say?
I've seen one quote from it,
but I haven't seen the paper, so...
-: Well, I, oh, let's see, I said that,
well, that eating the apple might suggest disobedience,
-: Yes. -: but (laughs),
the conference was disobedient,
but not toward God, you know,
and (clucking tongue)
I think, I talked about some of the things
that we learned at the conference, like, including,
we learned about Asian women and girls
captured in a sexual slave trade.
We learned about domestic violence.
There was an exhibit where women's clothing was hung
on the walls in the lecture rooms,
the clothing of women who had been abused
and their names and their stories were pinned
to each article.
So, I said that the conference,
I'm looking at the paper now,
the conference was defiant, but not towards the holy,
but towards those who would separate theological reflection
from the ongoing work
of discerning and dismantling injustice in our time.
-: Sounds great, Mary (laughing).
(both laughing)
-: It's funny to read my old self.
(both laughing)
-: I like that.
It has been a few years, hasn't it?
-: Definitely, I wouldn't, but I might not (laughs)
use alliteration quite the same way that I did.
(both laughing)
-: Oh, so how, when you look back on it,
how do you account or the backlash?
What do you think caused that?
-: Well, I think it had to do with
women running the conference,
and men were allowed to attend,
but it was really designed by women,
all of the speakers were women
and the activities,
the practices were very, kind of,
I think, oh, body-affirming
and that, somehow,
that, you know, theology hadn't made it
into the mainline churches, yet.
So, you know, I think it might just have to do
with the fear of women's agency, you know,
the same fear that makes people, you know, outlaw,
want to outlaw contraception and abortion, even today.
-: Do you feel like that theology has made it
into the mainline churches more, now?
Because you said, "It hadn't yet made it."
-: Well, I think it's a little better understood,
like, certainly in the UCC.
There, I think, it's a more of,
of a sort of body-affirming denomination
and (clucking tongue)
women are pastors much more frequently, now,
and we have open and affirming churches
towards LGBTQ persons,
but all of those things were a little less known
at the time. -: Yes.
-: Yeah, so, I mean, it was still,
like, I was the first female pastor in my church
and all the women in the support group
that I was in with Alison were kind of
the first, of them, -: Wow.
-: so, yeah, things were just different then.
It's hard to describe. -: Yes.
Well, that's striking.
I mean, on the one hand, it's 20 years;
in the other hand, it seems amazing to think
that it wasn't, in a sense, that long ago
you were all the first
in your churches. -: Yeah, yeah.
-: Yeah, so how would you define Re-Imagining?
-: How would I define?
(paper rustling)
Well, let's just think for a minute.
I just would think of it as, kind of,
the freedom to think about one's faith,
for one's self
and a kind of openness
to new ideas
and to many different ideas and interpretations
of doctrine, Scripture and, you know, religious practice.
-: Great, yes, sounds good. (dog barking)
So, what aspects of Re-Imagining were most significant
to you and why?
And, by the way, it sounds like you have a dog there.
-: Yeah, someone's walking outside
and she's barking her head off,
but I think it's probably nothing.
Maybe she has (drowned out) -: Oh, good (laughs).
-: Then, she will stop. -: Good.
Well, I just wanted to acknowledge it.
I can still hear you fine, but--
-: Yeah, I see someone walking down the street,
which is, for her, it's great cause for alarm.
(both laughing)
-: Very protective. -: Yeah, no, she's okay.
-: So, what aspects of Re-Imagining
were most significant to you and why, Mary?
-: Let me think for a minute.
I, you know, I wrote, I looked in the paper that I wrote,
the report, and one of the things I mentioned was,
well, I think, most significant?
For sure, I went to an anti-racism workshop,
the first one I'd ever been to
and it really had a profound effect on me.
And, one of the things that I was told at the workshop,
I was like, "I don't know what to do,
"I don't know how to understand this,"
and the people who were leading the workshop said,
"You have to deal with your own ethnicity.
"You have to come to understand yourself better."
So, I did that.
I really took that very seriously
and it ended up that, you know,
when I went back to graduate school,
my dissertation was an ethnographic study
of an Italian-American immigrant community
in San Pedro, California and I had, you know,
I am the second-generation Italian-American,
but my family's from the East Coast,
so there are a lot of differences,
but I did honestly feel like
I had to, like, get this ethnicity thing
and, as part of that, really got
a greater understanding of what race is
and, you know, I would say that's been
a really significant thread for me.
-: Wow, that's-- -: That was huge, that,
-: Yeah. -: and, see, that was why
I felt like people were saying,
"Oh, this was such a terrible conference,"
and I remember there was, you know,
there was this painting that was going on
and I think there was like in one little,
(clears throat) excuse me, -: Yeah.
-: wait a second, -: Yeah.
-: (coughing) in one little corner of the painting,
there might have been like a picture of a breast
and then in some Presbyterian publication
there was a blow up of this corner of the painting to show
that we were doing something terrible there, (laughs) right?
-: It's, yes.
-: And, I thought, all this preoccupation with, you know,
anxiety about women being seen by themselves
and what trouble they're gonna get into
with milk and honey, right?
(both laughing)
You know, the reality was, it was a serious conference.
It had intellectual depth.
There were speakers from all over the world
and, you know, we were really learning.
I felt I was really learning a great deal
about race and numerous other topics, as well,
-: but-- -: But, oh, go ahead.
-: Another thing that was, I had sort of forgotten about
but there was a liturgical dance group there
and I was into liturgical dance at the time,
so I really loved, you know, going to the classes
and I don't know if we had a performance or not,
but it was still, it was a practice that I enjoyed
and there was a lot of beauty
and, you know, colorful,
there were colorful symbols everywhere;
there was a lot of artistic expression.
And then, of course, there was the concert
given by Sweet Honey in the Rock.
-: Yes. -: That was all a part of it,
but to me, it was just, you know,
it was just so eye-opening in so many ways.
-: Oh, Mary, that is wonderful, powerful, wow.
So, how did your involvement
and did your involvement in Re-Imagine,
well, you've talked a little bit,
but did it specifically change your perspective
on Feminist Theology or the Church?
-: I think it just,
it reaffirmed my commitment to Feminist Theology.
You know, I teach a course
in Feminist and Womanist Theology, now.
-: Do you really? -: Yes.
-: That's wonderful. -: Oh, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I've maintained an interest
and I won't say it was all
because of Re-Imagining, -: Sure.
-: it was earlier than that,
but I think it helped fortify that interest for me.
-: Wow, that's great.
I'm glad to hear you're teaching that course, too.
-: Oh, yeah.
-: Do you think that Re-Imagining made any,
can you point to any specific contributions it made
to Christian theology or liturgy?
-: Well, I don't, I mean, I think the emphasis
on Sophia -: Yeah.
-: which, I guess, was controversial,
but I thought that was very strong and important,
I don't know whether it, you know,
actually changed the theological landscape, you know?
-: Yeah. -: But, well, Kwok Pui Lan,
her post-colonial writing may have developed since then.
I don't know exactly when she really took it
in such a strong direction,
but a lot of the figures who spoke,
the people who spoke, I think, have made an impact
on the theological world.
-: Absolutely, I wonder if you could just say
a little bit more about Sophia and your reaction to that
or why it meant something to you.
-: Well, because to me it was acknowledging a feminine aspect
of the Divine, -: Yeah.
-: which I think is long overdue
and I actually had grown up Catholic
and then become a Protestant,
in my genes, a story which I'll spare you,
but (laughs), (interviewer laughing)
but I think that, you know,
at least in the Catholic Church, with Mary,
there was a sense of the feminine face of the Divine
-: Yeah. -: and that that was something
notably lacking in most Protestant churches.
And so, it helped
to kind of lift that up
and, you know,
I'd go back to what Mary Daly said, if
you know, if, what did she say?
"If God is male," yeah, -: "God is male," mm-hmm,
"then male is God?" yep.
-: "then male is God," thank you.
-: Yeah.
-: And so, you know,
it seemed very important to
get that sense of equality.
-: Yes, thank you.
So, what do think is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining?
-: Oh...
Well, I, I don't know.
I mean, its overall impact? -: Yeah.
-: I don't know, I mean, I didn't go
to all the follow-up conferences,
but I did get the quarterly bulletin for a while.
I don't know, I think it was kind of like a,
a moment of taking a stand, you know,
-: Yes. -: that women were saying,
"We can do this.
"We are the Church.
"We don't need anyone else's permission,"
and it ruffled some feathers
and I know that some women suffered because of that,
losing their jobs,
but I think it really was an important moment.
I can't think if any other
kind of historic moment
when women gathered like that,
you know, in such numbers
and representing people from around the world
and I'm sure there have been gatherings,
but I personally am, I guess, not aware
and to have participated in it was really important for me.
I don't know, I don't know, really,
what its overall impact has been on the Church.
I can't say for sure.
I don't think I have a kind of big picture
understanding of that. -: Yeah.
-: Hopefully, you're going to tell us, right?
-: Yeah, I hope, yes.
I don't have it yet, Mary.
I'm hoping I will. -: Okay.
-: I'm gaining all this wisdom from people.
I hope I come up with something (laughs).
One, a couple other quick questions,
kind of a big one, which is,
what do you think Re-Imagining means today?
And, by that, I don't mean just the Re-Imagining community,
but what needs to be reimagined today,
in church, in religion, in spirituality?
-: Well, I think, really, some of the themes
that were brought up then need, you know,
the connection between faith and justice
needs to be reimagined and lifted up again.
You know, Nancy Ammerman has recently just written a book
where she surveyed everyday religion, and,
this was not a common idea
among everyday non-professional people,
that faith and social justice ought to be connected,
how we're really naturally led to each other,
so I would think strengthening that idea
is one thing that needs attention.
-: Absolutely, yes, thank you.
I have one last question that's really specific.
We are working on a Re-Imagining website
and we're just kind of looking -: Okay.
-: for ideas about what could be included in it
or who would benefit from it, any ideas you have
about what could be in it would be really helpful.
-: Okay. (interviewer laughing)
Well, you know, one thing
that Re-Imagining focused quite a lot on:
inclusive language, which was the big issue of the time,
one of the big issues, large. -: Yes.
That needs attention, now,
and, you know,
new attention, I think. -: Yeah.
-: You know, (sighing)
so that's one thing, -: Sure,
so just to clarify that, -: religious language.
-: that, I agree with you,
and I think, do you think,
like, having examples of how to use it
or, I mean, rituals, liturgy, that kind of thing
or what would be helpful? -: Yeah.
I think that would be helpful
and, also, to learn to speak in ways that,
like I'm having to learn to respect people's pronouns.
So, learning to speak in ways
that include more and more people
and, you know, exclude fewer and to bring that into,
into the liturgy and music of the Church,
I think would be very important.
-: Yeah, that's really helpful, thank you.
Is there anything that we haven't talked about
that you would like to add, Mary?
(static hissing) -: Um, finishes with that.
-: I'm sorry, I missed that (laughs).
-: No, I was just gonna look back
a little bit. -: Oh sure, please do.
-: No, I think,
I think I gave you the highlights.
-: Good, well, thank you so much.
This was really helpful
and I'm gonna turn off the recording, now.
-: Okay. -: Give me just one second.