WEBVTT 1 00:00.000 --> 00:05.000 —miss what you just said. You had just said that wouldn't the world be a better place— 2 00:05.000 --> 00:05.000 Better place. 3 00:05.000 --> 00:07.000 —wouldn't it have been a better place then if you had what we had today. 4 00:07.000 --> 00:21.000 Yeah. Right. Because people, at that particular time, there was so much hatred, I guess, to those people. Like I said, we didn't carry—I'd never had to carry that kind of a hate. But I— 5 00:21.000 --> 00:23.000 For the White people? So— 6 00:23.000 --> 00:51.000 Well, some of them. Well, let's put it this way. You figure New Orleans, like I told you over the telephone, we lived in all four corners of the city of New Orleans. This was not like Baton Rouge or Shreveport, or any of the others where the Blacks were on one side of the tracks. We lived all over the entire city of New Orleans. Therefore, you could understand you had White people all over. So naturally, we all were together, which we had a problem with most of the people from Northern Louisiana and all, because they didn't appreciate the way we were, and the way we got along. 7 00:51.000 --> 00:51.000 You mean like White New Orleans— 8 00:51.000 --> 00:55.000 Whites. No, Whites didn't allow it. They didn't like the way things were going there. 9 00:55.000 --> 01:02.000 So, the Whites would come in from out of town to New Orleans? 10 01:02.000 --> 01:12.000 Well, they would have their say, as you know, about, "Hey, you shouldn't let this one be here. This Black person shouldn't be here. This Black person shouldn't be talking to you," all this kind of stuff like that. Those things was crazy. 11 01:12.000 --> 01:35.000 Look, but this is one of the things, like I said, a person that was originally born and reared in the city of New Orleans during that period of time, I'd say from 1918 up until 1950, original people in there, we didn't have no problem. I could go next door there and tell the lady "Look, my mama said she need a cup of sugar." 12 01:35.000 --> 01:36.000 And she was a White woman. 13 01:36.000 --> 02:02.000 She was White. Or they'll come over there and ask my mother for it. It didn't make any difference. I done remember the lady, that was the lady that was next door to me when her husband took sick, my mother was over there. They were over there. They helped one another. They lived together. But now? Well, I can understand more the White people had moved out of the neighborhood after certain people moved into a neighborhood. Well, I don't fault them. 14 02:02.000 --> 02:04.000 You don't? Why not? 15 02:04.000 --> 02:08.000 Well, you look at some of the people that come in here. Look at that area. What I was telling you about. 16 02:08.000 --> 02:10.000 The Treme, that area? 17 02:10.000 --> 02:15.000 That's right. Look how they discredit it. They cared less about it. 18 02:15.000 --> 02:19.000 And when you say "they," you're talking about Black people? 19 02:19.000 --> 02:21.000 Black people. Black people. I'm talking about Black people. 20 02:21.000 --> 02:22.000 You feel that's— 21 02:22.000 --> 02:48.000 That's what's in that area. There isn't any White people in there. It's not to say that when the White people walked out of there, that they left that in that condition. No. When they walked away from there, those were beautiful homes, well-kept homes. And then when they walked away, that's because you take the projects, they have one of the beautifulest thing, especially this one that's right over here, the Desire Project. 22 02:48.000 --> 02:49.000 What's it called? 23 02:49.000 --> 02:50.000 Desire. 24 02:50.000 --> 02:51.000 Desire Project. Uh-huh. 25 02:51.000 --> 02:59.000 The one that have all the problems there. They had the most beautiful things in the world in there. The flooring in that place, it was out of sight. 26 02:59.000 --> 03:00.000 Mm-hmm. You saw all this as it was coming? 27 03:00.000 --> 03:00.000 Oh, I— 28 03:00.000 --> 03:03.000 As it developed and was— 29 03:03.000 --> 03:14.000 Oh, gee. I remembered every one of them. Now, the Lafitte Project was the best. Now this one here, well, it's about one of the only projects that's left in the city of New Orleans that's halfway decent. 30 03:14.000 --> 03:15.000 Lafitte? 31 03:15.000 --> 03:26.000 Lafitte. That's right. But all the rest of them? My God. They're just out there. Who destroyed it? 32 03:26.000 --> 03:30.000 Who do you think— 33 03:30.000 --> 03:30.000 The people destroyed it. 34 03:30.000 --> 03:31.000 Why do you think that is? 35 03:31.000 --> 03:41.000 I haven't the faintest idea why. If they have a hostility, you don't take it out on that. You take out your frustration elsewhere. Don't destroy it. 36 03:41.000 --> 04:15.000 I walked into one of them there, I questioned one of the fellas about the house in the project. And I asked him, I said, "Why is it children have a wall with a hole in it like that?" He tell me both of the kids went to go through the door at the same time, but they couldn't go through. So, he went through the wall. And I questioned him, "Well, what did you do about it?" "I didn't do nothing about it." Now, would I want him to be in my house? Would I want his family to be living in my house? No. If he did that, I mean, he wouldn't care whether he walk through the walls. 37 04:15.000 --> 04:24.000 These are the things that, when you look at it, a lot of people want to say that, "Hey, they didn't give this to the Black person. They didn't do this for the Black person." But you're not stuck— 38 04:24.000 --> 04:39.000 This world doesn't know anyone, anybody, anything. You got to get out there and do it. I made a living for myself. My mother struggled and educated six of us. I struggled and I sent all five of my kids to school. 39 04:39.000 --> 04:42.000 Did you? Wow. 40 04:42.000 --> 04:43.000 Every one of them. Every one of them. They all got college degrees. 41 04:43.000 --> 04:47.000 Wow. That's—Yeah. 42 04:47.000 --> 04:51.000 And there was no other one. My wife never worked. My wife never worked. 43 04:51.000 --> 04:52.000 Really? 44 04:52.000 --> 04:58.000 In the 30 years that we stayed together, she never worked. 45 04:58.000 --> 05:00.000 Well, what was your occupation when you got out of high school? What did you do? 46 05:00.000 --> 05:07.000 Well, when I got out of high school, I went to the service. And when I got out of the service, I worked for Lights Egan Funeral Home for the first portion of it. 47 05:07.000 --> 05:07.000 You did what? 48 05:07.000 --> 05:09.000 I worked for Lights Egan Funeral Home. 49 05:09.000 --> 05:11.000 Uh-huh. What was the name of the funeral home? 50 05:11.000 --> 05:12.000 Lights Egan. 51 05:12.000 --> 05:13.000 The Lights Egan? 52 05:13.000 --> 05:14.000 Yeah. 53 05:14.000 --> 05:17.000 Okay. Uh-huh. 54 05:17.000 --> 05:29.000 After that, then I went with a little parcel service. Then I went into the trucking industry. I worked for Herrin Transportation Company and MacLean Trucking Company. 55 05:29.000 --> 05:30.000 MacLean. 56 05:30.000 --> 05:32.000 That's where I retired from. MacLean Trucking Company. 57 05:32.000 --> 05:34.000 Oh. Uh-huh. Did you drive the trucks? 58 05:34.000 --> 05:37.000 Yes. I was an 18-wheeler [indistinct 00:05:37] 59 05:37.000 --> 05:41.000 Really? You probably traveled a lot. 60 05:41.000 --> 05:45.000 Well, at that time, when I first started out there, they didn't allow Blacks on the road either. 61 05:45.000 --> 05:48.000 Oh. What year was that that you started? 62 05:48.000 --> 05:49.000 1956. 63 05:49.000 --> 05:50.000 And they didn't allow Blacks on the road? 64 05:50.000 --> 06:01.000 No. Well, you see, there wasn't accommodations for Blacks on the road. You went, but you was on your own. Most companies didn't want you to go through the back doors and all this kind of stuff. 65 06:01.000 --> 06:03.000 The companies did not want you to do that? 66 06:03.000 --> 06:06.000 No, no, no. Because that could create a problem. 67 06:06.000 --> 06:06.000 What do you mean? 68 06:06.000 --> 06:18.000 Well, you're driving a truck and you pump truck, then you have to come through the back door to get something to eat or something like that. You wasn't allowing in none of the truck stop to do anything. 69 06:18.000 --> 06:25.000 Until when it was in 1970. Yeah, 1968 to 1970 when they let you on the road. You was going on the road, and then you didn't have too much problem about it. 70 06:25.000 --> 06:25.000 1960s? 71 06:25.000 --> 06:25.000 1968 to 1970. 72 06:25.000 --> 06:25.000 That's when you started. 73 06:25.000 --> 06:25.000 I started running on the road. 74 06:25.000 --> 06:40.000 And that's when it became possible. 75 06:40.000 --> 06:42.000 Yeah. Well, you could go—Right. You could go into— 76 06:42.000 --> 06:43.000 For Black people to— 77 06:43.000 --> 06:44.000 Yeah. You could go— 78 06:44.000 --> 06:45.000 —go to through the front door. 79 06:45.000 --> 06:47.000 —in the front door and go into— 80 06:47.000 --> 06:48.000 And use the facilities. 81 06:48.000 --> 06:48.000 Use the facilities and [crosstalk 00:06:48] 82 06:48.000 --> 06:51.000 Stay in a hotel or motel. 83 06:51.000 --> 06:51.000 Right. Well, whatever it was. Then you were served. 84 06:51.000 --> 06:53.000 But until then— 85 06:53.000 --> 06:57.000 In some places, they still had a little problem. But the majority of the places, you didn't have any problems. 86 06:57.000 --> 06:59.000 Do you remember having problems? 87 06:59.000 --> 07:00.000 No, I don't. No. No problem. 88 07:00.000 --> 07:01.000 You weren't given, but there were problems [indistinct 00:07:02] 89 07:01.000 --> 07:10.000 Oh, there were problems. Well, when they first started that, when they changed it over here in the city of New Orleans, where you were allowed to go into any place, any one of the restaurants, anything. You had a little problem once in a while. 90 07:10.000 --> 07:10.000 They would— 91 07:10.000 --> 07:10.000 You would run into some of the fellas. 92 07:10.000 --> 07:10.000 They'd insult you. 93 07:10.000 --> 07:35.000 Well, even the other White fellows called them rednecks. They didn't believe in—You had a problem with them, but most of the time, you would go into a place like that, you would be together with White and Blacks. We would go into the restaurant, various, some of them. They would give you a little stare, some of them. 94 07:35.000 --> 07:36.000 A little stare, you said? 95 07:36.000 --> 07:45.000 Oh, they would stare at you. Some of them wouldn't even serve you. Especially the one that was out here on Frenchmen and Gentilly. And she would use derogatory remarks. 96 07:45.000 --> 07:45.000 Would she? When you'd go there? 97 07:45.000 --> 07:45.000 Oh, yes. Indeed, she would. 98 07:45.000 --> 07:45.000 What'd she say to you? 99 07:45.000 --> 07:50.000 She'd call you all kinds of names. She would call you a nigger just like that. "We don't serve niggers in here," and all that. 100 07:50.000 --> 07:51.000 And you— 101 07:51.000 --> 07:52.000 Right in front of them. 102 07:52.000 --> 07:52.000 This is a restaurant. 103 07:52.000 --> 07:53.000 Yeah. 104 07:53.000 --> 07:55.000 And you'd go in there with White people. 105 07:55.000 --> 07:56.000 Oh, yeah. 106 07:56.000 --> 07:57.000 And what would you do when she did this? 107 07:57.000 --> 08:08.000 Nothing. Most of the time, you just would ignore her. Just go on about your business. Okay. That's your restaurant, you have that. Because they have the sign up, too, they had the right to refuse service to anyone. You know— 108 08:08.000 --> 08:10.000 And they exercised that. 109 08:10.000 --> 08:15.000 Their right. So, it didn't make any difference. And we would walk right. We'd all go someplace else. It didn't matter. 110 08:15.000 --> 08:22.000 Now, was this in the 1960s that you're describing this? 111 08:22.000 --> 08:22.000 Yeah. No, this was right after integration. 112 08:22.000 --> 08:23.000 I see. Right. 113 08:23.000 --> 08:26.000 This wasn't—This was before '60— 114 08:26.000 --> 08:26.000 And before, like in the '50s. 115 08:26.000 --> 08:29.000 Yeah. That's what I'm trying to tell you. 116 08:29.000 --> 08:47.000 Did you experience more of that, more insults like that when there was a segregation? Did you have more experiences of having Whites kind of— 117 08:47.000 --> 09:14.000 No. No, not really. No. No. No. There was only a selected few that would come—You see, one of the things about it that most people felt as though that was a slap in the face, and they would fight no matter what. It would be a slap in the face to call you out of your name. They'd call you that. That was room for a fight. Rather than go through all this thing, no, they didn't do it. They didn't. They did it more afterwards than they did before. 118 09:14.000 --> 09:16.000 [indistinct 00:09:16]? 119 09:16.000 --> 09:18.000 The only ones that would call you like that would be the police officers. 120 09:18.000 --> 09:23.000 The police officers? 121 09:23.000 --> 09:35.000 Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. They'd either call you boy or they would call you a nigger or something like that. 122 09:35.000 --> 09:35.000 What? When you were coming—when you were growing up? 123 09:35.000 --> 09:36.000 Oh, yeah. When I was coming up. Oh, yes, yes, yes. The police. They had little respect for the families. 124 09:36.000 --> 09:38.000 For the family. You mean for the Black family? 125 09:38.000 --> 09:51.000 Black family. Oh, some White families, too. Oh, yeah. It all depends which area they was in. They didn't have the respect. Really, truthfully, most policemens was ignorant. They were ignorant. They didn't have any education. 126 09:51.000 --> 10:05.000 But because they were White, they got the job. This family member know this family member who know this chief and then that's put them right on. They couldn't even pass the test. But that's the way it was in the city. 127 10:05.000 --> 10:15.000 Just to clear, so you're saying that when you're coming up—Because when you were first talking earlier about growing up in your neighborhood when you were young, the policemen knew people in the family. 128 10:15.000 --> 10:18.000 They knew. They knew. 129 10:18.000 --> 10:25.000 I sort of got the feeling that there was a sort of friendly relationship there, in a sense. I mean, you knew who the police were, they knew you. 130 10:25.000 --> 10:30.000 Oh, yeah. Well, most of the police was living right there in the neighborhood that you were in. 131 10:30.000 --> 10:35.000 Are these the same policemen you're saying that had no respect for— 132 10:35.000 --> 10:36.000 Some of them. 133 10:36.000 --> 10:36.000 —Blacks. 134 10:36.000 --> 10:36.000 Some of them. 135 10:36.000 --> 10:36.000 [indistinct 00:10:36]. 136 10:36.000 --> 10:36.000 Some of them. 137 10:36.000 --> 10:36.000 So, some of them were— 138 10:36.000 --> 10:37.000 Some of them. 139 10:37.000 --> 10:38.000 —insulting— 140 10:38.000 --> 10:38.000 Oh, yeah. Some of them. 141 10:38.000 --> 10:39.000 —when you were growing up. 142 10:39.000 --> 10:50.000 Right. Right. Not all of them. Just like it is today. Not all of them. Some of them were very respectful. They'll come to you and talk to you just like—They wanted you to respect them and they'll respect you, too. But others cared less. 143 10:50.000 --> 10:55.000 Right. And others— 144 10:55.000 --> 10:57.000 They just came along and it didn't make any difference what they'd said or who'd they say it to. 145 10:57.000 --> 11:00.000 They would call you boy or they'd call you— 146 11:00.000 --> 11:04.000 Oh, anything. It wouldn't make any difference. It wouldn't make any difference to them. 147 11:04.000 --> 11:36.000 Mm-hmm. Well, related to that, did you ever grow up feeling that you needed to watch yourself around police in particular because otherwise they could hurt you? I mean, my— 148 11:36.000 --> 11:41.000 Oh, yes. Yes. You know how to conduct yourself around the police officers. 149 11:41.000 --> 11:41.000 What did—How did— 150 11:41.000 --> 11:41.000 Some of them. Some of them. 151 11:41.000 --> 11:43.000 No, I understand— 152 11:43.000 --> 12:01.000 Some of them. Some of them. Sometimes they were very nice. And if they were by themselves—Well, we never really didn't take advantage of any of them. But there was one policeman—But they had a bunch of guys. They were pretty rough, but mischief and everything else. So, we called him Sergeant Robita. 153 12:01.000 --> 12:03.000 Robita. Sergeant— 154 12:03.000 --> 12:04.000 Yeah. 155 12:04.000 --> 12:05.000 He was [indistinct 00:12:05]. 156 12:05.000 --> 12:27.000 I think that was his name. And we had Mr. George. We used to call him Mr. George because he was always the police officer at the dance. Every dance that would give, a public dance, Mr. George would be at the dance. Well, at 12 o'clock, see, y'all dancing at 12 o'clock on a Sunday night, and Mr. George would be the first one to leave. Mr. George would board the street car and forget about it. 157 12:27.000 --> 12:30.000 Oh, really? 158 12:30.000 --> 12:34.000 But he was a nice police officer. If you didn't have the money, most of the time, he'll give you that little money to go into the dance. 159 12:34.000 --> 12:35.000 Really? 160 12:35.000 --> 12:46.000 50 cents or whatever it was. He'll give it. He'll pay for you to go in, even though he didn't have to pay. All he had to do is just walk up there and let you go into the dance. But he would give you the money. Let them go in there. But he was a real nice— 161 12:46.000 --> 12:46.000 So he was a nice guy. 162 12:46.000 --> 12:55.000 He was a real nice guy. Now, Sergeant Robita was not a bad guy. He had the baseball team and everything around there. But it was just that these guys was just a mischief. 163 12:55.000 --> 12:56.000 The policemen? 164 12:56.000 --> 12:58.000 The policeman was nice. But— 165 12:58.000 --> 12:58.000 They [indistinct 00:12:58]. 166 12:58.000 --> 12:58.000 —the fellas in the neighborhood were just a mischief. 167 12:58.000 --> 13:01.000 And so they would [indistinct 00:13:01] 168 13:01.000 --> 13:04.000 They would antagonize him. 169 13:04.000 --> 13:06.000 They would antagonize the Black people. 170 13:06.000 --> 13:08.000 Oh, definitely. They'll throw a rocks at him. They'll do all sort of things. 171 13:08.000 --> 13:10.000 At Black mans. 172 13:10.000 --> 13:10.000 No. At the policemen. 173 13:10.000 --> 13:11.000 [indistinct 00:13:12]. 174 13:11.000 --> 13:16.000 No. The Black mans would take and throw the rocks, you see. The policeman was very—He was all right. 175 13:16.000 --> 13:16.000 The policeman was nice. Sergeant Robita. 176 13:16.000 --> 13:16.000 Yeah. 177 13:16.000 --> 13:16.000 I see. But some— 178 13:16.000 --> 13:16.000 Black dudes was [indistinct 00:13:21]. 179 13:16.000 --> 13:16.000 They were [indistinct 00:13:22]. 180 13:16.000 --> 13:16.000 Little Black kids. 181 13:16.000 --> 13:25.000 They would antagonize him. 182 13:25.000 --> 13:27.000 Antagonize him, and then that would make him—get him. 183 13:27.000 --> 14:07.000 Okay. But tell me about the other side, about policemen who might abuse you. When I was asking a minute ago about, when I said, did you ever feel that you had to conduct yourself in a certain way around policemen because they could take advantage of you. So, you knew that. You had friends, or you knew people, Black men, who would sort of be mischievous and sort of push that. But as far as, I guess what I'm trying to get a sense of is what did you—I guess I get the feeling that you kind of almost knew— 184 14:07.000 --> 14:21.000 Yeah. You knew not to antagonize the policeman or not to do anything that would set him off. Oh, you mean whether he would be abusive to me or if I done something? I never had the experience of that, so therefore I reckon [indistinct 00:14:21] 185 14:21.000 --> 14:37.000 I guess what I'm asking, in a sense, was there a code of conduct in some sense among Blacks, at least with some policemen? I guess I'm asking what that was. 186 14:37.000 --> 14:38.000 Well— 187 14:38.000 --> 14:44.000 Even if it was never said, what did you know that you needed to do or not do around a policeman? 188 14:44.000 --> 14:57.000 Well, one of the things about it, you knew that you had to respect him for one thing. Okay? When I'm saying that—The only thing that when you were close enough to a policeman, doing things such as using obscene language. 189 14:57.000 --> 14:59.000 You wouldn't do that around them? 190 14:59.000 --> 15:06.000 You wouldn't do that around them—You wouldn't disrespect, say something to some elderly person or to a White person, especially a young lady. 191 15:06.000 --> 15:08.000 Uh-huh. A young White woman. 192 15:08.000 --> 15:10.000 Yeah. A young White woman. No, you wouldn't. You knew better. 193 15:10.000 --> 15:14.000 Right. At that time, you and I would not probably— 194 15:14.000 --> 15:15.000 No way. 195 15:15.000 --> 15:16.000 —be in the same room. 196 15:16.000 --> 15:23.000 Well, I wouldn't exactly the say we wouldn't be in the same room, but we wouldn't be in the public. 197 15:23.000 --> 15:23.000 Like this? This wouldn't have no prayer, [indistinct 00:15:23] then. 198 15:23.000 --> 15:23.000 We would never talk in public. 199 15:23.000 --> 15:25.000 No, no. We would never be together in public. 200 15:25.000 --> 15:28.000 So, if a White woman passed you on a street in your neighborhood—I mean, I know that you— 201 15:28.000 --> 15:37.000 She could speak to you. It wouldn't be no problem. There wouldn't be no problem because figures, though, that you probably would call by name and call each other, so they know that you were a part of that neighborhood. 202 15:37.000 --> 15:41.000 So, we might know each other. 203 15:41.000 --> 15:51.000 We'd know each other. But it's for you to go out of the neighborhood and to speak to someone, or to bump into a White woman or something of this nature, then you could have a problem. 204 15:51.000 --> 15:54.000 Right. So, when you left the neighborhood— 205 15:54.000 --> 15:54.000 Once you left the neighborhood— 206 15:54.000 --> 15:55.000 —that's when you had to be careful. 207 15:55.000 --> 16:01.000 —that's when you had to be careful about who you talked to, where you went, and what you were doing. Yes. 208 16:01.000 --> 16:05.000 What would you do? I mean, would you just look away? 209 16:05.000 --> 16:25.000 Well, I don't know. It was an everyday thing, I guess. You knew how to conduct yourself, and they knew how to conduct themselves. They wouldn't put themselves in a position where you would come in contact with them, or you wouldn't put yourself in a position to come in contact with them unless you just had to. 210 16:25.000 --> 16:49.000 There was points where if the fellow that was delivering groceries and stuff like that, you'd come in contact. But some of them wouldn't allow you to come inside their house. Some of them wanted you to go no further than to the front door. Some didn't even want you to come to the front door. They wanted you to go to the rear, had all this kind of stuff. But you knew this because when I was in school, I worked in the grocery store, and I had that kind of a problem. 211 16:49.000 --> 16:49.000 What kind of problem? 212 16:49.000 --> 16:58.000 Well, one day I bring the groceries there and they'd tell me bring them to the back. I bring them to the back, said put them in the kitchen. I'd do that. And the next time, they wouldn't even let me come to the— 213 16:58.000 --> 16:58.000 Oh, really? 214 16:58.000 --> 17:04.000 Same people. Yeah. Excuse me. 215 17:04.000 --> 17:09.000 Wow. So, when you went back, you had gone into the kitchen, delivered the groceries, next time you went back to the house— 216 17:09.000 --> 17:21.000 Either the man would be in there. He said, "I told you, I don't want you coming into my house." Now, the wife done already told me to what she want me to do. She didn't want me to come to the front door. She wanted me to come in the back, tell me over the telephone, and then put the groceries on the table. 217 17:21.000 --> 17:22.000 Right. So this was her husband? 218 17:22.000 --> 17:23.000 That's her husband, would come— 219 17:23.000 --> 17:23.000 The next time. 220 17:23.000 --> 17:42.000 —the next time, he'll come in there when I stand at the door, then I'd knock at the back door. Then he'd come and, "Well, boy, you know better than that." Put the groceries on the table. Well, see. You had to understand this. Most of the time, I would go back to the store and I would tell the owner about it. Then he'd say, "Well, you don't pay no attention to him, do you?" I'd say "[indistinct 00:17:42] man." 221 17:42.000 --> 17:44.000 Yeah. Was the store owner White or Black? 222 17:44.000 --> 17:45.000 Mm-hmm. He's White. 223 17:45.000 --> 17:48.000 He was White. So, he just thought— 224 17:48.000 --> 17:49.000 He was White. Most all of those grocery stores was all owned by Italians. We had one German that had a grocery store. But you don't let that bother you. Most of the time, you just overlook that. And— 225 17:49.000 --> 18:07.000 But there was a kind of—Go ahead. 226 18:07.000 --> 18:14.000 Well, that's what it is. Some of them, I used to go tell early in the morning, and they had their milk and donuts and stuff like that. I would deliver that to them. 227 18:14.000 --> 18:15.000 To White folks. 228 18:15.000 --> 18:47.000 Yeah. Very few Blacks I delivered to. Very, very few Blacks. Most Black people didn't buy that much bunch groceries in the first place because they didn't have the money. Mostly, this was more or less the ones that had husbands that was working, and whatever they were doing, they would get paid at least maybe once a month or every two weeks or something like that. They would make enough groceries to keep a home over until the next payday. See, then I would deliver that to them, because everything was in the little stores. They didn't have these supermarkets or nothing like that. 229 18:47.000 --> 18:48.000 They didn't have those big, giant— 230 18:48.000 --> 18:56.000 Oh, no, no. It was all just little corner grocery stores. They had four—On each corner, there was a grocery store. 231 18:56.000 --> 19:01.000 Did the shop owners treat you pretty well? I mean, were they— 232 19:01.000 --> 19:01.000 Shop owners? 233 19:01.000 --> 19:02.000 —respectful? 234 19:02.000 --> 19:03.000 What do you mean? The department stores, like? Or. 235 19:03.000 --> 19:07.000 No. Well, I mean the little grocery stores where you worked and— 236 19:07.000 --> 19:09.000 Little grocery stores. Like I said, little grocery stores, they treat you because they all know you. 237 19:09.000 --> 19:10.000 Right. What about the department stores? 238 19:10.000 --> 19:41.000 Now, the department stores was another thing. Only thing that you were allowed to do in the department store was be a porter. You were not allowed to be a salesperson. Now, I've heard in certain stores that didn't allow them to try on any clothes or try a hat on and anything of that nature. But I've never experienced any of that. I worked for a shoe store in the business district. I worked for that just before I got into the service because it was hard. It was very hard to find a job. 239 19:41.000 --> 19:42.000 Really? 240 19:42.000 --> 19:49.000 Oh, yes. Indeed. At that time, I was making as much as an average man was making, $10 a week. 241 19:49.000 --> 19:52.000 Really? An average Black man, you mean? Or an average— 242 19:52.000 --> 19:52.000 An average man. 243 19:52.000 --> 19:53.000 —man? 244 19:53.000 --> 19:53.000 Period. 245 19:53.000 --> 20:07.000 In New Orleans was making $10 a week. 246 20:07.000 --> 20:07.000 $10 a week. 247 20:07.000 --> 20:09.000 Around when? Around what year was that? 248 20:09.000 --> 20:10.000 Oh, this was 1938, '39, '40, '41. And in 1945, man, I was making $25 a week. And that was top salary. 249 20:10.000 --> 20:12.000 Really. And that was doing what? 250 20:12.000 --> 20:15.000 That was 1945. Right after World War II. 251 20:15.000 --> 20:16.000 And what were you doing? 252 20:16.000 --> 20:26.000 At that particular time? I was working for Lights Egan at that time. But in the beginning, I was working for Red Goose Shoe Store. 253 20:26.000 --> 20:27.000 Okay. The Lights Egan. That was the funeral home. 254 20:27.000 --> 20:51.000 In 1938, 1939, I was working for Red Goose Shoe Store. I was making $10 a week. In 1945, I was working for Lights Egan Funeral Home. I got out of the service in October the 24th of 1945, and I went to work for them in November of '45 because I wanted to keep active [indistinct 00:20:41]. And instead of going back to school, I didn't know why I didn't go back to school, which I don't have any regrets. And then sometime I do. 255 20:51.000 --> 20:54.000 Depends what day it is. 256 20:54.000 --> 21:33.000 Many a times I sit down here, I'm doing nothing since I retired. I say, "Oh, I should go and register to go back to school, and why don't I go to—" I went over to Suno once, and then I decided, I said, "Oh—" I never was ashamed. I always felt as though I was competitive enough that I can be competitive enough to challenge any young student that's in there. But it was just—I don't know. I gave it up. I'm 70 years of age, and I know that my thinking capacity reaches full this high. I don't believe that computer can work any longer. 257 21:33.000 --> 21:40.000 Well, let me ask you about World War II. Where did you go during World—Were you stationed overseas? 258 21:40.000 --> 22:02.000 Oh, yes. I was in the European Theater. I landed in Glasgow, Scotland, then I was in South Hampton, England, and then I landed in the Normandy Beachhead. Then we went all the way in through St. Lou, Reims, Paris. Long way. Belgium. 259 22:02.000 --> 22:05.000 How was that? I mean— 260 22:05.000 --> 22:12.000 Really, when I sit down here and I talk to a lot of people, I can show you some pictures. I never realized anything. 261 22:12.000 --> 22:13.000 What do you mean you never realized anything? 262 22:13.000 --> 22:24.000 I never realized it was any danger. I felt as though this is just a game. I didn't know why. I realize it later on, that this is really the reality. But I just thought this is was a game. 263 22:24.000 --> 22:29.000 Yes. But many people did die. 264 22:29.000 --> 22:45.000 Oh, yeah. I left and then see the destructions and everything else. Then I went in. But I think the part is, when I was in Metz, France, they changed us from one unit to another. I was driving a truck, and I fell off the mountain. Came right straight down off of the mountain [indistinct 00:22:46] ice— 265 22:45.000 --> 22:47.000 In the truck. 266 22:47.000 --> 22:58.000 Yeah. And I stayed there, cold, freezing. Well, they came and they got me. And I told them, I said, like if I had a job, I told them I quit. 267 22:58.000 --> 22:59.000 Say again? If you had a job— 268 22:59.000 --> 23:17.000 Like I had a job. I was quitting this job, but I'm in the service. Then I told them I wasn't driving the truck anymore because I fell off that mountain, off that icy mountain. You know what? I didn't have any experience in driving on ice and snow and all of that stuff— 269 23:17.000 --> 23:17.000 Yeah. Certainly not from New Orleans. 270 23:17.000 --> 23:17.000 Never had seen it, so. 271 23:17.000 --> 23:49.000 But then I left from there, went into Tulle, France. From Tulle, France, I left and then I went into—What was it? What place was that? I don't remember. I should remember that one because we went down to like, it was a little river, but it wasn't very deep. They were shelling us. I never will forget the lieutenant that was in charge of the company. He was so scared. He was a rich man. He was a very rich man. He didn't want to die. 272 23:49.000 --> 23:49.000 Really? 273 23:49.000 --> 23:50.000 No, he didn't want to die. Which I didn't [indistinct 00:23:50] 274 23:50.000 --> 23:51.000 Was he White? Was he White? 275 23:51.000 --> 24:00.000 Yeah. Oh, yeah. We didn't have any Black officers. It was a segregated army. The army was segregated, and then we had no Black officers. This was one of the things that really affected us. 276 24:00.000 --> 24:30.000 Now, when I first got into the service, we had a problem because every soldier in my outfit had a high school diploma. So, we wanted to know why we didn't have an officer. The first thing, they put us in like a quartermaster corps, a labor union, and, well, decided, "Hey, wait. I don't need to know the nomenclature of an ax handle. I don't need to know the nomenclature of spade." 277 24:30.000 --> 24:31.000 Mm-hmm. Of a what? 278 24:31.000 --> 24:41.000 A spade. That's a shovel. Anybody with common sense—I mean, a kid that just come up knows what end to put in the ground. I don't need you to tell us that. I don't see no reason for that. 279 24:41.000 --> 25:06.000 But before, in the beginning, when I first was drafted, and they had me up on Melpamine and Drieds at the center, induction center, giving your orders when you're leaving and when were you going. They separated me from the rest of the group that was going to the Army and the Navy. They didn't have any Blacks in the Marine at the particular time, or the Air Force or nothing. But it was just the Navy and the Army. 280 25:06.000 --> 25:37.000 So, they put me into the Navy section. I told them, I said, "No, I'm not going in the Navy." So he told me, he said, "The only way you can go to the Army, if we get somebody else to volunteer to go in the Navy." He said, "Well, because we're going to take you in the Navy. We have to meet our quota." And so, that's when another argument, I turned to him and I said, "Not me." I said, "My parents was enslaved, but I'm not going to be a slave." I said, "And I know what the Navy is all about. All I can ever be in the Navy is to be a servant." 281 25:37.000 --> 25:38.000 Really? 282 25:38.000 --> 25:52.000 As a matter of fact, I told him, I said, "I don't even serve myself. My mother serves my dinner to me." So, that's why—It's true. Then finally, somebody come along and said to me, said, "Okay, okay. You can go ahead to the Army." So, I went over into the Army. But that was an experience then. 283 25:52.000 --> 26:13.000 And that way, after I got into the service, I stayed in there for a while. I had a little problem just before going overseas. Every morning I wake up, I'm on KP. For what? I mopping the floors, washing the dishes, peeling potato. Well, anyway, now this is not right. So, I went to court. 284 26:13.000 --> 26:17.000 To the Army court. 285 26:17.000 --> 26:26.000 They had a summary court marshal. This trip, they gave me 14 days. 286 26:26.000 --> 26:26.000 I'm sorry? 287 26:26.000 --> 26:26.000 They gave me 14 days. 288 26:26.000 --> 26:27.000 14 days. 289 26:27.000 --> 26:27.000 14 days of hard labor. That's what they gave me in the service. 14 days, because I went to court because I wanted to know why I was going to KP doing extra duty. 290 26:27.000 --> 26:27.000 So, just by complaining, they gave you 14 days. 291 26:27.000 --> 26:42.000 Yeah. Oh, in the 92nd article of war, they can charge you with anything. They could charge you with smoking. 292 26:42.000 --> 26:43.000 Is that right? 293 26:43.000 --> 26:43.000 Anything you do. 294 26:43.000 --> 26:46.000 So, just the fact [indistinct 00:26:45]. 295 26:46.000 --> 27:09.000 All right. So I got through that. Well, right after I finished the 14 days, I made PFC. I made PFC right after that. It's crazy. So, I was on guard duty. Had a second lieutenant out of Rome, Georgia. He called us all in, and he made us leave our rifles. He locked up all our rifles, and he gave us all pickax handles. 296 27:09.000 --> 27:10.000 Pickax handles? 297 27:10.000 --> 27:27.000 Yeah. We [indistinct 00:27:10] with a pickax handle. So, here he comes to the post I'm on. Well, nobody's never told me how to salute an officer with a pickax handle. So, I just put the ax handle down and saluted him. They charged me with willfully leaving my arms in the barracks. Yes, they did. It stuck. 298 27:27.000 --> 27:29.000 It stuck. This went on your records. 299 27:29.000 --> 27:32.000 Yes. Well, they didn't go on my record. They just [indistinct 00:27:31]. 300 27:32.000 --> 27:34.000 Well, when you got stuck— 301 27:34.000 --> 27:46.000 Well, I mean, I was convicted. They took my stuff away from me, and then they gave me 14 days, which I didn't do anything. But the only one thing they would have me taking one piece of coal from this bin, put it into that bin, and I'd [indistinct 00:27:45] backwards. 302 27:46.000 --> 27:55.000 Well, at that time I was young, and then I had a bunch of friends, and they would go out there and get pitchers of beer, and we'd sit down there and have more fun out there moving— 303 27:55.000 --> 28:08.000 Then this same particular officer, we were going through the gas chambers, and one of the fellas just snapped. I mean, he totally snapped. 304 28:08.000 --> 28:09.000 What do you mean? He [indistinct 00:28:09]. 305 28:09.000 --> 28:19.000 He just went off. He just went berserk going through the gas chamber. I don't know if it was the mask that he had on. But you had to test to see how long you could stay in that gas chamber, you understand? 306 28:19.000 --> 28:19.000 Right. Uh-huh. 307 28:19.000 --> 28:19.000 And he— 308 28:19.000 --> 28:23.000 He couldn't take it. 309 28:23.000 --> 28:25.000 Oh, no. He was jumping [indistinct 00:28:24]. This officer kicked him and disranked him. 310 28:25.000 --> 28:26.000 Kicked him? 311 28:26.000 --> 28:29.000 Yes, he did. 312 28:29.000 --> 28:30.000 When this guy was- 313 28:30.000 --> 29:09.000 When that guy was acting—This other fellow that was—I don't know where his guy was from, but I didn't know who he was, but a Black guy. He didn't look like it. Really, he didn't look like a Black American. He didn't even talk like one. He had a funny accent with him. He was a smooth, but he was a real, real Black, Black man with nice black hair on him. Big guy. Well, handsome looking guy. [indistinct 00:28:53] when he swung at that officer, our sergeant stepped in there and he hit him in his eye. I thought his eye had come completely out when he hit him, but he missed the lieutenant, so that we all had to go to court because they had charged us with mutiny. 314 29:09.000 --> 29:18.000 Finally, when they got the court, when they had brought it all up there, they did something to this officer. But then they shipped us right over. 315 29:18.000 --> 29:18.000 Right over to— 316 29:18.000 --> 29:21.000 Overseas. We went right overseas right after that incident. We went over. 317 29:21.000 --> 29:26.000 You were gone. 318 29:26.000 --> 29:46.000 We didn't stay. We didn't stay a second. They shipped us out. After I got over there, like I said, I didn't take things real serious. When I got to Schiedam, Holland, and that's when I was shot, in Schiedam, Holland. I was with the Schiedam, Holland. And then I didn't know anything else after. 319 29:46.000 --> 29:46.000 You said you were shot there? 320 29:46.000 --> 29:46.000 Yeah, I was shot in Schiedam, Holland. And I didn't do anything else from then on. 321 29:46.000 --> 29:46.000 Really, that was the end of your. 322 29:46.000 --> 30:04.000 That was the end of my war because they brought me to the 25th General—Well, it was the 25th Field Hospital. Then from the 25th Field Hospital to the 25th General Hospital in Tongeren, Belgium. When I left from Tongeren, Belgium. I went to Antwerp, Belgium; from Antwerp, Belgium. I went to Munich, Germany, and two other places in Germany. 323 30:04.000 --> 30:22.000 Then the general post decided—Well, I was wounded in the foot during then, swole up on me so big like that, and I felt—Well, it really was hurting me so bad I couldn't even take my shoes off. Oh, God. I cried. That's when they shipped me back here. They wouldn't let me go any further. 324 30:22.000 --> 30:31.000 Let me just clarify something from what you just told me about in the gas chamber. During that training, when the guy went berserk, the officer who kicked— 325 30:31.000 --> 30:31.000 [indistinct 00:30:31]. 326 30:31.000 --> 30:34.000 —him was White, and the person who went berserk— 327 30:34.000 --> 30:35.000 Was Black. 328 30:35.000 --> 30:36.000 —was Black. Uh-huh. 329 30:36.000 --> 30:39.000 Yeah. But see, we [indistinct 00:30:39] 330 30:39.000 --> 30:43.000 Did you think that there—I mean, that sounds like—Would you say that there was a certain amount of— 331 30:43.000 --> 30:43.000 Oh, yes. 332 30:43.000 --> 30:43.000 —racial abuse? 333 30:43.000 --> 30:43.000 Oh, yes. Yes. 334 30:43.000 --> 30:43.000 And because the White— 335 30:43.000 --> 30:43.000 Racism and—Oh, yes. Yeah. 336 30:43.000 --> 30:43.000 —officers were in a position to do that— 337 30:43.000 --> 30:43.000 Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. A lot of them lost their lives. 338 30:43.000 --> 30:44.000 A lot of Black soldiers did? 339 30:44.000 --> 30:55.000 Killed a lot of White officers. 340 30:55.000 --> 30:59.000 Oh, a lot of Black soldiers killed White officers? 341 30:59.000 --> 31:00.000 Oh, yes. Oh, yes. 342 31:00.000 --> 31:03.000 In Europe, you mean? 343 31:03.000 --> 31:15.000 Not my officer, but one right next to them. No. Not any of the officers that we had because he didn't come with us when we went overseas. The second lieutenant didn't come. But we had officers other than that. But I mean, in the other company there— 344 31:15.000 --> 31:16.000 In Europe. 345 31:16.000 --> 31:17.000 Yeah. In Europe. 346 31:17.000 --> 31:21.000 When you were finally over in the war zone or whatever, then— 347 31:21.000 --> 31:24.000 They'd kill them. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 348 31:24.000 --> 31:26.000 What would they say? Would they say, "Oh, he was killed by the enemy"? 349 31:26.000 --> 31:32.000 Most of the time, no, no. Few of the soldiers that was executed and everything else for killing officers. 350 31:32.000 --> 31:33.000 For killing a White officer. 351 31:33.000 --> 31:49.000 Oh, yeah. I had several of them that was friends where we went in service, that moved from one company to another that was charged and had dishonorable discharges. I think the government just rescind the discharge and give them an honorable discharge. But they had dishonorable discharges. 352 31:49.000 --> 31:50.000 Wait. Killing a White officer? 353 31:50.000 --> 31:55.000 Oh, yes. Indeed. Yes. Yeah. Oh, they caught quite a few of them. 354 31:55.000 --> 31:58.000 Well, why in heaven's name would the—I mean, if a soldier took— 355 31:58.000 --> 32:02.000 Well, certainly, when you're abusive, you— 356 32:02.000 --> 32:12.000 No, I was going to ask. My question wasn't why would they kill the White officer, but why would they—You said that the government later on rescinded the dishonorable discharge and gave them honorable discharge? 357 32:12.000 --> 32:14.000 So that they could gain benefits. 358 32:14.000 --> 32:15.000 Okay. Even though they knew that they also had killed a White— 359 32:15.000 --> 32:43.000 Oh, they were guilty. They had—Well, you see in most cases, when you have a preliminary hearing and they go from that, but eventually later on, they'll, "Hey, let's review this." If one of the guys in there persists upon it, why he did it, and why he was involved into it, well, then they may open the case up again, and then the government goes straight and they find out, "Hey, well, this officer was really abusive, and he was completely at fault," and it just motivated- 360 32:43.000 --> 32:45.000 So, eventually, if they look back in the record— 361 32:45.000 --> 32:50.000 What they said, well, okay, it could have been swung either way. 362 32:50.000 --> 32:58.000 Almost like it was almost like a self-defense. 363 32:58.000 --> 33:08.000 Yeah. In a certain sense. They could only take so much. And that was the end of that. But I have quite a few of them that lost their lives. Some of them lost their lives just foolishly, drowning. 364 33:08.000 --> 33:09.000 You mean in the war? 365 33:09.000 --> 33:18.000 During the war, yeah. Lot of them, accidents by automobile accident, vehicular accidents, killing or something like that. 366 33:18.000 --> 33:34.000 But my mother was, she had the two older brothers, myself. Well, my youngest brother went in later on, but my oldest brother was a very lucky one. 367 33:34.000 --> 33:34.000 What do you mean? 368 33:34.000 --> 33:37.000 Well, see, he was cut on his throat. 369 33:37.000 --> 33:38.000 In the war? 370 33:38.000 --> 33:52.000 Yeah. He was in the Pacific Theater with the Japanese. My second-to-oldest brother, well, he was in this riot. Well, he wasn't born at that time. There was a riot in Alabama. They had a race riot in Alabama. 371 33:52.000 --> 33:52.000 Yeah. What year was that? 372 33:52.000 --> 34:23.000 This was in 1942, '3, something like that. They had the race ride in Alabama. Well, they had one here in Louisiana, the 93rd division had in Shreveport, in Alexandra. That's when they shipped them over. That was an all-Black outfit. That was an entire Black outfit. They fought in Italy, Sicily, and all like that. 373 34:23.000 --> 34:24.000 So, they were— 374 34:24.000 --> 34:35.000 Well, I was a part of that one in the beginning, and then I switched over to the third Army. Oh, yeah, that was field artillery. See, I started off at Searchlight Battalion. 375 34:35.000 --> 34:35.000 In what? 376 34:35.000 --> 34:46.000 In the Searchlight Battalion. You see, we were supposed to have [indistinct 00:34:39] duty. We were supposed to protect all of the area, the area the United States, with searchlights and— 377 34:46.000 --> 34:54.000 Oh, right. When you said that your brother was lucky in that he was in the riot in Alabama— 378 34:54.000 --> 34:57.000 Yeah, because he could have gotten killed. He was wounded. 379 34:57.000 --> 34:57.000 Oh, and he didn't get—okay. 380 34:57.000 --> 35:05.000 He was wounded, but he didn't get killed. 381 35:05.000 --> 35:14.000 Right. Huh. When you got back from the war, did you expect things to be different in New Orleans in any way? Or did you— 382 35:14.000 --> 35:18.000 Yes. Yes. Yes. I really thought—Well, things were a little different. 383 35:18.000 --> 35:24.000 And what was that [indistinct 00:35:22] 384 35:24.000 --> 35:37.000 Well, some of the people were a heck of a lot different. But when I first got back here, my experience was that I was going to buy me a pair of shoes. On the street car, on my way back, at that time, they had the separation of the races. They had the little— 385 35:37.000 --> 35:38.000 Screen. 386 35:38.000 --> 35:52.000 Well, it wasn't a screen. It was just a little piece of wood that was stepped into there. Well, I didn't question that. I was sitting behind that little fence when I had two young White boys come up there, and they wanted me to move out of the seat that I was sitting in. 387 35:52.000 --> 35:54.000 And even though you were sitting in— 388 35:54.000 --> 36:10.000 Behind the screen. Well, this presented a problem. But the other fellow that was with me, he just told me they kept me and everybody else, and that there was two White ladies on there. They came over there, they were talking to me, and they just kept me just cooling him down [indistinct 00:36:11] 389 36:10.000 --> 36:13.000 They kept you calm. 390 36:13.000 --> 36:20.000 Because they knew I had—It's like they told those two fellas to come up, they got plenty of seats up here. But they just wanted to see where I was at. 391 36:20.000 --> 36:21.000 Because they were antagonizing. 392 36:21.000 --> 36:23.000 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 393 36:23.000 --> 36:25.000 What did you say to them when they asked you? 394 36:25.000 --> 36:30.000 Oh, I don't remember. But I do know that I was angry enough to hurt them. 395 36:30.000 --> 36:30.000 Oh. Did you? 396 36:30.000 --> 36:34.000 No, I didn't. But I was. 397 36:34.000 --> 36:35.000 I see. You were angry. 398 36:35.000 --> 36:59.000 You see, at that time, you'd go through rehabilitation and everything else because you were instilled with this: Either you kill or be killed. This was taught to you daily. This is the way things was to you. You didn't show no fear because of this guy here that's a human being; you're a human. You didn't worry about that. That's an enemy as far as he's concerned. He's going to take your life. So, you try to take his to protect your own self. 399 36:59.000 --> 37:19.000 All of these things flash back into you. This guy here is trying to hit me with a piece of wood for no apparent reason. So, I got to try to protect myself. You see? And that's the thing. That's the only experience I had when I come back here. I never experienced anything else other than that. 400 37:19.000 --> 38:00.000 But right before I left, before, when I got into New Jersey—I think it was New Jersey. They had a little orientation. Well, before—Yeah. It was in New Jersey we had—No, Virginia. It was in Virginia. We had an orientation. The officer there sat down and he told all of us, he said, "Now, let me explain something to you. You've all come back. The war is over. You've all put your lives on the line for this country. So, you had that same right as any and everyone in this country to have the same thing. Don't take a back step." 401 38:00.000 --> 38:02.000