WEBVTT

1
00:00:01.197 --> 00:00:03.414
<v Interviewer>Joyce, it's a pleasure to talk to you.</v>

2
00:00:03.414 --> 00:00:05.380
Thanks so much for agreeing to be interviewed.

3
00:00:05.380 --> 00:00:07.324
I just would like some background information.

4
00:00:07.324 --> 00:00:08.963
If you could give me your full name,

5
00:00:08.963 --> 00:00:11.936
and spell it as well please.

6
00:00:11.936 --> 00:00:14.532
<v Joyce>Okay, Joyce Ann Mercer.</v>

7
00:00:14.532 --> 00:00:18.699
J O Y C E, A N N, M E R C E R.

8
00:00:20.207 --> 00:00:23.225
<v ->Thanks so much, and are you layer clergy?</v>

9
00:00:23.225 --> 00:00:25.558
<v ->I'm clergy, I am PC rep...</v>

10
00:00:28.457 --> 00:00:31.707
Sorry I'm getting cut off here somehow.

11
00:00:35.152 --> 00:00:36.968
<v ->Are you still there?</v>

12
00:00:36.968 --> 00:00:37.801
<v ->Yes.</v>

13
00:00:37.801 --> 00:00:38.634
<v ->Okay.</v>

14
00:00:38.634 --> 00:00:39.467
<v ->You're still there too, good.</v>

15
00:00:39.467 --> 00:00:41.717
(laughing)

16
00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:48.131
<v ->We're having technical difficulties.</v>

17
00:00:48.131 --> 00:00:49.881
<v ->We sure are, my my.</v>

18
00:00:56.752 --> 00:00:58.140
<v ->Joyce?</v>

19
00:00:58.140 --> 00:00:58.973
<v ->Yes.</v>

20
00:01:00.198 --> 00:01:03.828
<v ->I can hear you, are you getting cut off from me?</v>

21
00:01:03.828 --> 00:01:05.188
<v ->I now can hear you.</v>

22
00:01:05.188 --> 00:01:07.180
I don't know what happened for a minute there.

23
00:01:07.180 --> 00:01:08.256
We're okay now.

24
00:01:08.256 --> 00:01:09.089
<v ->Okay.</v>

25
00:01:10.242 --> 00:01:14.409
You are an elder in the Presbyterian Church, PC USA, right?

26
00:01:16.425 --> 00:01:17.975
<v ->That's right, I'm a teaching elder.</v>

27
00:01:17.975 --> 00:01:19.376
<v ->Right.</v>

28
00:01:19.376 --> 00:01:23.402
And Joyce, when and where were you born?

29
00:01:23.402 --> 00:01:27.569
<v ->I was born in Richmond Virginia in 1997, I mean 1957!</v>

30
00:01:30.253 --> 00:01:31.471
<v ->Okay! (laughing)</v>

31
00:01:31.471 --> 00:01:33.157
You had me worried for a minute there.

32
00:01:33.157 --> 00:01:35.509
(both laughing)

33
00:01:35.509 --> 00:01:39.405
You are so mature for your age. (laughing)

34
00:01:39.405 --> 00:01:43.288
And I know, I know looking at your CV

35
00:01:43.288 --> 00:01:45.439
you've been to several institutions,

36
00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:47.220
so could you just quickly talk about

37
00:01:47.220 --> 00:01:49.553
where you've gone to school?

38
00:01:51.355 --> 00:01:54.709
<v ->I did my undergraduate work at the University of Virginia,</v>

39
00:01:54.709 --> 00:01:57.130
and majored in religious studies there.

40
00:01:57.130 --> 00:01:58.945
And then I was at Yale Divinity School

41
00:01:58.945 --> 00:02:01.082
where I have an M.Div.

42
00:02:01.082 --> 00:02:05.249
And at the UCONN School of Social Work where I have an MSW.

43
00:02:06.451 --> 00:02:09.958
And while I was in ministry in Minneapolis,

44
00:02:09.958 --> 00:02:14.551
I joined up with a cohort of the Presbyterian minister's

45
00:02:14.551 --> 00:02:17.810
who were doing a demon and urban ministry

46
00:02:17.810 --> 00:02:20.578
true McCormick seminary, so I did that.

47
00:02:20.578 --> 00:02:21.517
<v ->Wow.</v>

48
00:02:21.517 --> 00:02:25.202
<v ->And then that gave me courage to go ahead and pursue</v>

49
00:02:25.202 --> 00:02:28.565
PhD studies at Emory university.

50
00:02:28.565 --> 00:02:31.391
<v ->Wow, that's impressive.</v>

51
00:02:31.391 --> 00:02:34.027
Interesting background. (laughing)

52
00:02:34.027 --> 00:02:36.168
<v ->Mostly it just means that I like school a lot.</v>

53
00:02:36.168 --> 00:02:38.066
(interviewer laughing)

54
00:02:38.066 --> 00:02:39.816
<v ->Well, I understand.</v>

55
00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:42.934
What work or ministry were you doing

56
00:02:42.934 --> 00:02:45.007
at the time of Re-Imagining?

57
00:02:45.007 --> 00:02:46.257
Which was 1993.

58
00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:51.718
<v ->I was in transition at that particular moment.</v>

59
00:02:51.718 --> 00:02:55.885
I had been serving in a UCC parish in Minneapolis.

60
00:02:57.387 --> 00:02:59.304
I was at Mayflower UCC.

61
00:03:05.897 --> 00:03:08.495
I had been there as an associate pastor

62
00:03:08.495 --> 00:03:09.536
for a couple of years,

63
00:03:09.536 --> 00:03:13.523
and an opportunity came for me to go to graduate school,

64
00:03:13.523 --> 00:03:17.690
and so, at the time, I was just in my first year at Emory,

65
00:03:18.875 --> 00:03:21.989
and had only been in Atlanta for a couple of months.

66
00:03:21.989 --> 00:03:25.239
<v ->Mmm, okay, that's helpful.</v>

67
00:03:26.973 --> 00:03:31.901
What work or ministry did you do after Re-Imagining?

68
00:03:31.901 --> 00:03:35.448
<v ->When I finished my graduate program,</v>

69
00:03:35.448 --> 00:03:39.497
the portion that I had to do in residency in Atlanta,

70
00:03:39.497 --> 00:03:42.176
I returned to Minneapolis,

71
00:03:42.176 --> 00:03:46.679
and I worked as a social worker at Teenage Medical Services

72
00:03:46.679 --> 00:03:49.556
which was then the Teen Clinic

73
00:03:49.556 --> 00:03:52.473
of Minneapolis Children's Hospital.

74
00:03:53.992 --> 00:03:57.196
I did that while I finished my dissertation,

75
00:03:57.196 --> 00:04:01.620
and after that, moved to the Philippines where my spouse

76
00:04:01.620 --> 00:04:05.787
and I were mission coworkers for theological education.

77
00:04:07.379 --> 00:04:10.155
<v ->Great, and currently you are professor of practical</v>

78
00:04:10.155 --> 00:04:13.166
theology and pastoral care at Yale Divinity School?

79
00:04:13.166 --> 00:04:14.842
<v ->That is correct.</v>

80
00:04:14.842 --> 00:04:15.907
<v ->Good.</v>

81
00:04:15.907 --> 00:04:17.818
Thank you so much.

82
00:04:17.818 --> 00:04:19.301
Joyce, I know you've written about this,

83
00:04:19.301 --> 00:04:20.680
and taught feminist theology,

84
00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:23.101
I'm wondering how and when did you first

85
00:04:23.101 --> 00:04:25.934
become aware of feminist theology?

86
00:04:27.995 --> 00:04:29.953
<v ->I think I was born aware.</v>

87
00:04:29.953 --> 00:04:32.620
(both laughing)

88
00:04:34.551 --> 00:04:37.798
<v ->That sounds intriguing, you have to tell me.</v>

89
00:04:37.798 --> 00:04:40.799
<v ->I mean, it's a little incidental story.</v>

90
00:04:40.799 --> 00:04:42.962
When I was born, I was born prematurely,

91
00:04:42.962 --> 00:04:46.179
and my parents had not picked out any names for girls

92
00:04:46.179 --> 00:04:50.346
because they were so certain that I was gonna be a boy.

93
00:04:51.269 --> 00:04:55.436
Even my naming kind of happened in opposition.

94
00:04:57.108 --> 00:04:59.775
(both laughing)

95
00:05:02.312 --> 00:05:03.951
So it kind of bolted from there.

96
00:05:03.951 --> 00:05:05.118
I think I have

97
00:05:08.524 --> 00:05:11.820
long been aware of feminist thought.

98
00:05:11.820 --> 00:05:15.449
When I got into my undergraduate program

99
00:05:15.449 --> 00:05:17.788
at the University of Virginia of course there were not

100
00:05:17.788 --> 00:05:20.846
courses in feminist theology there,

101
00:05:20.846 --> 00:05:24.363
but there was conversation about liberation theology

102
00:05:24.363 --> 00:05:26.636
and the emergence of feminist theology.

103
00:05:26.636 --> 00:05:30.051
And so I began to read some of that material on my own

104
00:05:30.051 --> 00:05:34.390
I found my way to Letty Russell and Rosemary and Ruether,

105
00:05:34.390 --> 00:05:35.723
and some others.

106
00:05:37.097 --> 00:05:39.764
And it was just deeply resonant.

107
00:05:41.670 --> 00:05:44.956
I sort of read myself into that, and then when I was

108
00:05:44.956 --> 00:05:47.542
choosing places that I wanted

109
00:05:47.542 --> 00:05:51.209
to go for theological eduction,

110
00:05:52.416 --> 00:05:56.032
I thought how nice it would be to go and study where

111
00:05:56.032 --> 00:05:58.467
some of these women are teaching.

112
00:05:58.467 --> 00:06:00.282
That's really how I ended up at Yale,

113
00:06:00.282 --> 00:06:04.111
cause then in school I wanted to come and be in a place

114
00:06:04.111 --> 00:06:06.383
where I could be in conversation about those things.

115
00:06:06.383 --> 00:06:07.429
Which happened.

116
00:06:07.429 --> 00:06:08.262
<v ->Yeah.</v>

117
00:06:08.262 --> 00:06:11.838
Letty Russell was there, Margaret Farley, is that right?

118
00:06:11.838 --> 00:06:12.671
<v ->Right.</v>

119
00:06:12.671 --> 00:06:13.849
<v ->Yes, yeah.</v>

120
00:06:13.849 --> 00:06:15.529
Oh thank you, that is really interesting.

121
00:06:15.529 --> 00:06:17.786
I love the story about your name, too.

122
00:06:17.786 --> 00:06:19.928
(laughing)

123
00:06:19.928 --> 00:06:20.761
Could you say a little bit,

124
00:06:20.761 --> 00:06:22.619
I know you were on the planning committee for the first,

125
00:06:22.619 --> 00:06:24.550
the 1993 conference.

126
00:06:24.550 --> 00:06:26.626
And I wonder if you could share some of your memories

127
00:06:26.626 --> 00:06:28.422
of that committee, and what that was like.

128
00:06:28.422 --> 00:06:29.849
But first of all actually, I apologize.

129
00:06:29.849 --> 00:06:34.285
How did you first get hooked up with the planning committee?

130
00:06:34.285 --> 00:06:39.220
<v ->I was a member of the Twin Cities Area Presbytery,</v>

131
00:06:39.220 --> 00:06:43.387
and Sally Hill was the moderator when I was ordained,

132
00:06:44.603 --> 00:06:47.936
in 1985, I guess it was.

133
00:06:51.066 --> 00:06:55.233
Of course we all, my husband was working at Saint Luke's

134
00:06:56.544 --> 00:06:59.914
where Mary Ann Lundy's husband was the pastor.

135
00:06:59.914 --> 00:07:01.315
<v ->Yes.</v>

136
00:07:01.315 --> 00:07:03.960
<v ->It was sort of this small world,</v>

137
00:07:03.960 --> 00:07:08.914
and I was in conversation with people at seminary,

138
00:07:08.914 --> 00:07:11.821
and we had a women's gathering,

139
00:07:11.821 --> 00:07:16.375
a women's virtue gathering monthly, women of the presbytery.

140
00:07:16.375 --> 00:07:17.542
And I suppose,

141
00:07:19.350 --> 00:07:22.380
maybe it was Sally Hill invited me to be a partner.

142
00:07:22.380 --> 00:07:23.829
I can't really remember now, but,

143
00:07:23.829 --> 00:07:24.662
<v ->Sure.</v>

144
00:07:26.614 --> 00:07:29.763
<v ->I know it was through association of women who were</v>

145
00:07:29.763 --> 00:07:34.125
interested in feminist theology, and feminism in the church.

146
00:07:34.125 --> 00:07:35.512
<v ->Yes.</v>

147
00:07:35.512 --> 00:07:37.776
And what do you recall about that,

148
00:07:37.776 --> 00:07:38.789
I know it's been a long time,

149
00:07:38.789 --> 00:07:42.956
but what do you recall about that planning committee?

150
00:07:43.819 --> 00:07:44.935
<v ->A lot of laughter.</v>

151
00:07:44.935 --> 00:07:47.617
(laughing)

152
00:07:47.617 --> 00:07:48.534
It was fun.

153
00:07:49.715 --> 00:07:54.575
I also remember some particular decisions being made

154
00:07:54.575 --> 00:07:55.901
that were significant.

155
00:07:55.901 --> 00:07:57.234
One of them was,

156
00:07:58.710 --> 00:08:01.460
that someone articulated out loud

157
00:08:02.664 --> 00:08:04.331
the good of inviting

158
00:08:05.757 --> 00:08:10.437
what we might call up and coming, or maybe lesser known

159
00:08:10.437 --> 00:08:11.939
women and speakers.

160
00:08:11.939 --> 00:08:13.577
<v ->Yes.</v>

161
00:08:13.577 --> 00:08:16.749
<v ->The choice to not just have the same people</v>

162
00:08:16.749 --> 00:08:19.971
that spoke already, had access to really.

163
00:08:19.971 --> 00:08:24.089
But to have some fresh faces

164
00:08:24.089 --> 00:08:28.256
and different voices on the platforms for the conference.

165
00:08:30.304 --> 00:08:32.489
It was a very deliberate choice.

166
00:08:32.489 --> 00:08:36.578
And so that's how we ended up with Mary Bednarowski,

167
00:08:36.578 --> 00:08:40.578
instead of somebody who's out there all the time

168
00:08:41.844 --> 00:08:45.486
talking historically about the church.

169
00:08:45.486 --> 00:08:49.277
Or we ended up with Rita Brock, or others,

170
00:08:49.277 --> 00:08:53.284
cause Rita was just coming in to everybody's consciousness

171
00:08:53.284 --> 00:08:55.861
at that point in time, you know.

172
00:08:55.861 --> 00:08:59.945
It was a very deliberate decision to do that.

173
00:08:59.945 --> 00:09:03.278
I also recall the decision to

174
00:09:05.013 --> 00:09:08.513
fully incorporate art into the conference,

175
00:09:09.742 --> 00:09:13.909
and so having artists working while the meeting was going on

176
00:09:15.123 --> 00:09:17.456
I think that was part of it.

177
00:09:20.699 --> 00:09:21.858
What else?

178
00:09:21.858 --> 00:09:22.691
Gosh.

179
00:09:23.842 --> 00:09:24.925
Choices about

180
00:09:29.713 --> 00:09:33.644
specific conscience elements I don't recall being on the

181
00:09:33.644 --> 00:09:38.223
table at the time when I was involved with the committee.

182
00:09:38.223 --> 00:09:41.495
It was more that shaping the container parts of it,

183
00:09:41.495 --> 00:09:44.578
so things like deciding not to have a

184
00:09:47.164 --> 00:09:50.801
static center or front.

185
00:09:50.801 --> 00:09:54.247
But to have that move around, I think that was, you know,

186
00:09:54.247 --> 00:09:57.247
part of the design work at the time.

187
00:09:58.417 --> 00:10:01.233
<v ->Do you recall why the decision was made to have the art</v>

188
00:10:01.233 --> 00:10:04.733
going on, and to not have a static center?

189
00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:10.197
<v ->I know that the issue of the static center was about</v>

190
00:10:10.197 --> 00:10:13.319
opposition to the kinds of hierarchies that get created

191
00:10:13.319 --> 00:10:16.041
just by the way the furniture is set up in rooms,

192
00:10:16.041 --> 00:10:18.708
and how that kind of

193
00:10:21.094 --> 00:10:24.030
arrangement where there is eight fronts,

194
00:10:24.030 --> 00:10:27.244
and the people who are, the speakers are at the front,

195
00:10:27.244 --> 00:10:31.411
and the people who are in the very back have less access,

196
00:10:33.379 --> 00:10:35.417
and maybe are participating differently

197
00:10:35.417 --> 00:10:38.140
by virtue of where they are.

198
00:10:38.140 --> 00:10:41.786
And so a hierarchy gets created implicitly,

199
00:10:41.786 --> 00:10:43.643
whether it's intended or not.

200
00:10:43.643 --> 00:10:47.739
I think the planning group was very intent on thinking about

201
00:10:47.739 --> 00:10:50.072
the structural ways that the

202
00:10:53.130 --> 00:10:54.698
unintended consequences

203
00:10:54.698 --> 00:10:58.961
of things like how the furniture is arranged in a room.

204
00:10:58.961 --> 00:11:00.544
And the reproducing

205
00:11:04.307 --> 00:11:08.389
exclusionary dynamics in social gatherings,

206
00:11:08.389 --> 00:11:12.229
and particularly in church and conference settings.

207
00:11:12.229 --> 00:11:16.091
You know, we're all so used to walking into worship settings

208
00:11:16.091 --> 00:11:20.136
where pews are in auditorium-like rows,

209
00:11:20.136 --> 00:11:22.680
and the important people are up on a podium,

210
00:11:22.680 --> 00:11:24.302
a chancel in the front,

211
00:11:24.302 --> 00:11:27.255
and there are power differentials being expressed.

212
00:11:27.255 --> 00:11:28.088
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

213
00:11:29.026 --> 00:11:32.144
<v ->And it's not that, I mean the committee was not,</v>

214
00:11:32.144 --> 00:11:34.031
as I recall at least,

215
00:11:34.031 --> 00:11:37.936
naive about power or negative about power.

216
00:11:37.936 --> 00:11:41.844
I mean there was a great assertion of

217
00:11:41.844 --> 00:11:45.594
the positive use of power on behalf of women.

218
00:11:46.957 --> 00:11:50.862
But, there was a direct effort

219
00:11:50.862 --> 00:11:54.621
to make intentional decisions

220
00:11:54.621 --> 00:11:59.191
about the way power was structured and set up,

221
00:11:59.191 --> 00:12:02.513
in the implicit design of the meeting.

222
00:12:02.513 --> 00:12:03.346
<v ->Yes.</v>

223
00:12:04.471 --> 00:12:06.120
And what about the inclusion of art?

224
00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:10.860
And having artists working during the gathering?

225
00:12:10.860 --> 00:12:13.610
<v ->I think that probably it's most</v>

226
00:12:15.936 --> 00:12:19.276
closely with the whole title and theme,

227
00:12:19.276 --> 00:12:23.193
the notion of Re-Imagining that is really about

228
00:12:24.146 --> 00:12:27.183
envisioning imagination as a way of knowing.

229
00:12:27.183 --> 00:12:28.053
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

230
00:12:28.053 --> 00:12:31.970
<v ->And the tending to the power of the imaginary</v>

231
00:12:33.651 --> 00:12:35.318
in human experience.

232
00:12:37.915 --> 00:12:41.262
Typically, I think this is still largely true,

233
00:12:41.262 --> 00:12:43.408
it certainly is in a lot of university settings

234
00:12:43.408 --> 00:12:45.825
that I have connections with,

235
00:12:47.334 --> 00:12:49.815
there are hierarchies of knowledges,

236
00:12:49.815 --> 00:12:53.232
and artistic imagination,

237
00:12:56.275 --> 00:13:00.181
even we can see that devaluing over time of the humanities,

238
00:13:00.181 --> 00:13:03.514
and of liberal arts as forms of knowing,

239
00:13:04.449 --> 00:13:06.687
as containers for knowledge.

240
00:13:06.687 --> 00:13:10.406
So I think the presence of working artists

241
00:13:10.406 --> 00:13:11.906
during the meeting

242
00:13:12.847 --> 00:13:16.930
was actually an effort to counter the assumptions

243
00:13:18.964 --> 00:13:22.677
that knowledge is about work that speakers are saying

244
00:13:22.677 --> 00:13:27.288
that can be written down in three point outlines.

245
00:13:27.288 --> 00:13:31.701
And to know instead that our imaginations are

246
00:13:31.701 --> 00:13:34.272
forms of knowing that are valued and important,

247
00:13:34.272 --> 00:13:36.522
and in fact are

248
00:13:38.485 --> 00:13:42.057
intimately tied up with the way we know the sacred,

249
00:13:42.057 --> 00:13:46.224
how we have access to God and the holy is

250
00:13:49.619 --> 00:13:53.786
an imaginative way of being in the world.

251
00:13:57.076 --> 00:13:58.546
<v ->Well said.</v>

252
00:13:58.546 --> 00:14:00.820
Before you move on, I wondered if you could tell me

253
00:14:00.820 --> 00:14:02.463
some of your memories about Sally Hill.

254
00:14:02.463 --> 00:14:04.414
As you know she is no longer with us,

255
00:14:04.414 --> 00:14:07.438
and she was so instrumental in this.

256
00:14:07.438 --> 00:14:11.271
It's helpful to hear people's memories of her.

257
00:14:13.894 --> 00:14:16.848
<v ->Well, one of my memories of her</v>

258
00:14:16.848 --> 00:14:19.613
actually is not from the conference.

259
00:14:19.613 --> 00:14:24.296
She used to sit in the Presbytery meetings and do her,

260
00:14:24.296 --> 00:14:26.262
can't remember all of the sudden if it was weaving,

261
00:14:26.262 --> 00:14:27.602
or needle work, anyway,

262
00:14:27.602 --> 00:14:31.769
she had a hand towel fabric art that she did all the time,

263
00:14:33.383 --> 00:14:35.275
and she would bring that, you know,

264
00:14:35.275 --> 00:14:37.557
and it used to really irritate some of the men

265
00:14:37.557 --> 00:14:40.221
(laughing)

266
00:14:40.221 --> 00:14:42.798
Because they assumed that she was,

267
00:14:42.798 --> 00:14:43.972
I don't know what they assumed.

268
00:14:43.972 --> 00:14:45.844
But it seemed like perhaps they assumed that

269
00:14:45.844 --> 00:14:48.163
she was not paying attention, or that she,

270
00:14:48.163 --> 00:14:51.551
the little old lady on the sidelines or something like that.

271
00:14:51.551 --> 00:14:52.472
Clearly she wasn't.

272
00:14:52.472 --> 00:14:54.330
She became the moderator of the Presbytery.

273
00:14:54.330 --> 00:14:57.876
She was very active in church governors,

274
00:14:57.876 --> 00:15:01.847
and decision making, and creative things that were happening

275
00:15:01.847 --> 00:15:03.430
All sorts of stuff.

276
00:15:04.756 --> 00:15:08.398
I just remember her doing that as kind of a

277
00:15:08.398 --> 00:15:09.231
refusal to

278
00:15:12.191 --> 00:15:15.124
be cooptive by a way of being in a meeting

279
00:15:15.124 --> 00:15:16.751
that she didn't want.

280
00:15:16.751 --> 00:15:19.336
And after her, I have taken that up.

281
00:15:19.336 --> 00:15:22.434
I frequently take my cross-stitch into meetings,

282
00:15:22.434 --> 00:15:25.288
because I find that it helps me to think,

283
00:15:25.288 --> 00:15:28.567
to stay focused on what we're talking about

284
00:15:28.567 --> 00:15:31.576
when I'm kinesthetically engaged with my hands

285
00:15:31.576 --> 00:15:33.893
doing something else.

286
00:15:33.893 --> 00:15:34.959
She's got that.

287
00:15:34.959 --> 00:15:37.959
The other thing that I recall is how

288
00:15:39.908 --> 00:15:43.991
Sally had a kind of dry humor about her at times.

289
00:15:46.624 --> 00:15:50.791
And in that Re-Imagining group, in the planning group,

290
00:15:54.612 --> 00:15:58.779
I just remember a lot of laughter, and a lot of it came...

291
00:15:59.772 --> 00:16:04.492
She set it up that way (laughter)

292
00:16:04.492 --> 00:16:08.250
Her name is on my ordination certificate.

293
00:16:08.250 --> 00:16:09.300
I have memories of her because

294
00:16:09.300 --> 00:16:11.244
she was the moderator at that time.

295
00:16:11.244 --> 00:16:15.411
Being involved in that, which I did with some trepidation.

296
00:16:16.251 --> 00:16:18.773
It was a little bit hard for me to take that step,

297
00:16:18.773 --> 00:16:21.673
and she helped to see that through,

298
00:16:21.673 --> 00:16:25.057
along with Liz Heller and some other important women

299
00:16:25.057 --> 00:16:26.943
in the presbyterian

300
00:16:26.943 --> 00:16:27.776
<v ->Yeah.</v>

301
00:16:27.776 --> 00:16:31.943
May I ask why it was hard for you to take that step?

302
00:16:34.199 --> 00:16:37.186
<v ->I was coming in to a specialized ministry.</v>

303
00:16:37.186 --> 00:16:40.467
I was being ordained to a chaplaincy position in

304
00:16:40.467 --> 00:16:44.050
adolescent chemical dependency treatment in

305
00:16:45.149 --> 00:16:49.501
what was then Fairview Deaconess Hospital in Minneapolis,

306
00:16:49.501 --> 00:16:52.811
and so I was coming into a ministry that didn't have

307
00:16:52.811 --> 00:16:56.272
a church community attached to it.

308
00:16:56.272 --> 00:17:00.721
And I was really feeling the absence of that sort of

309
00:17:00.721 --> 00:17:02.471
sponsoring community.

310
00:17:03.514 --> 00:17:05.444
And that just made it a little hard for me.

311
00:17:05.444 --> 00:17:06.452
<v ->Sure.</v>

312
00:17:06.452 --> 00:17:09.260
<v ->Women in the presbytery stepped up,</v>

313
00:17:09.260 --> 00:17:11.377
and other people stepped up,

314
00:17:11.377 --> 00:17:15.544
and we kind of made community around that occasion.

315
00:17:17.331 --> 00:17:20.248
But it was just psychologically difficult for me to

316
00:17:20.248 --> 00:17:24.748
be doing something that I understood as an athlete about

317
00:17:24.748 --> 00:17:26.831
leadership and community,

318
00:17:28.980 --> 00:17:31.406
without a concrete community.

319
00:17:31.406 --> 00:17:32.443
<v ->Yes.</v>

320
00:17:32.443 --> 00:17:36.013
<v ->We can theologize about the way that specialized</v>

321
00:17:36.013 --> 00:17:40.180
ministries like chaplaincy are where one is sent by the

322
00:17:41.692 --> 00:17:46.653
ecclesial community into the wider community permission.

323
00:17:46.653 --> 00:17:48.510
So it's not that there's not a community there,

324
00:17:48.510 --> 00:17:50.108
it's just not as readily visible

325
00:17:50.108 --> 00:17:52.275
as if you're going into parish ministry.

326
00:17:52.275 --> 00:17:54.428
<v ->Right, oh that makes sense, yes.</v>

327
00:17:54.428 --> 00:17:56.185
Well I love that story, I especially love that story

328
00:17:56.185 --> 00:17:59.000
of her doing that fabric art, and that you've continued it.

329
00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:00.167
That's lovely.

330
00:18:01.998 --> 00:18:05.012
So you were at the 1993 conference,

331
00:18:05.012 --> 00:18:08.253
and I would love to hear your memories of that event.

332
00:18:08.253 --> 00:18:11.214
What moments stand out for you?

333
00:18:11.214 --> 00:18:13.964
What was your overall impression?

334
00:18:17.310 --> 00:18:20.977
<v ->I remember entering,</v>

335
00:18:22.915 --> 00:18:24.348
I don't know what other people call it,

336
00:18:24.348 --> 00:18:27.563
I think of it as the Sophia blessing.

337
00:18:27.563 --> 00:18:30.571
That happened as we came into the space,

338
00:18:30.571 --> 00:18:34.907
and the tables were all arranged in a kind of big circle

339
00:18:34.907 --> 00:18:36.907
with a podium somewhere.

340
00:18:38.015 --> 00:18:41.098
And that blessing was something about

341
00:18:44.069 --> 00:18:45.884
dreaming visions and sharing with,

342
00:18:45.884 --> 00:18:49.029
and I don't really remember this word but,

343
00:18:49.029 --> 00:18:51.462
<v ->That's it, you got it.</v>

344
00:18:51.462 --> 00:18:54.212
<v ->Okay, that passed in my compass</v>

345
00:18:55.657 --> 00:18:56.737
I remember that.

346
00:18:56.737 --> 00:19:00.904
I remember probably one of the most powerful moments for me,

347
00:19:01.752 --> 00:19:06.481
and this is unexpected, or was for me at the time.

348
00:19:06.481 --> 00:19:10.361
There was a point when one of the speakers

349
00:19:10.361 --> 00:19:14.528
invited LGBTQ folks who wanted to,

350
00:19:17.251 --> 00:19:19.823
and were comfortable being out publicly,

351
00:19:19.823 --> 00:19:23.871
to come up to the podium and claim their space there,

352
00:19:23.871 --> 00:19:26.121
and be prayed with and for.

353
00:19:27.964 --> 00:19:31.237
And also acknowledge that some people who are not at liberty

354
00:19:31.237 --> 00:19:34.237
to do that, that they can't be safe,

355
00:19:35.295 --> 00:19:39.999
and be known in the fullness of their identities.

356
00:19:39.999 --> 00:19:43.114
And inviting others to stand on their behalf.

357
00:19:43.114 --> 00:19:46.537
And I remember just being moved to tears,

358
00:19:46.537 --> 00:19:49.238
oh gosh it touches me even now,

359
00:19:49.238 --> 00:19:53.405
to think of the church as a comfortable place where

360
00:19:54.996 --> 00:19:59.951
a liturgy could be deeply inclusive,

361
00:19:59.951 --> 00:20:03.022
where leadership could be deeply inclusive,

362
00:20:03.022 --> 00:20:07.189
where people's different identities could be celebrated.

363
00:20:10.712 --> 00:20:15.048
To sort of have a visual bodily experience of that

364
00:20:15.048 --> 00:20:17.561
in that very simple action.

365
00:20:17.561 --> 00:20:20.478
That really stands out to me today.

366
00:20:21.404 --> 00:20:25.665
It's one of the most moving things that happened.

367
00:20:25.665 --> 00:20:28.981
Of course the final closing liturgy,

368
00:20:28.981 --> 00:20:30.875
the infamous milk and honey.

369
00:20:30.875 --> 00:20:34.125
<v ->Yes. (both laughing)</v>

370
00:20:35.156 --> 00:20:36.589
<v ->Who doesn't remember that?</v>

371
00:20:36.589 --> 00:20:37.422
<v ->Right?</v>

372
00:20:46.584 --> 00:20:49.102
<v ->I guess I never have really understood</v>

373
00:20:49.102 --> 00:20:53.019
why people were insistent that this had to be a

374
00:20:54.667 --> 00:20:58.505
replacement Eucharist, because it wasn't offered that way,

375
00:20:58.505 --> 00:20:59.803
it wasn't presented that way.

376
00:20:59.803 --> 00:21:01.783
It was a liturgy inclusion.

377
00:21:01.783 --> 00:21:03.359
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

378
00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:06.757
<v ->That was in my memory and understanding,</v>

379
00:21:06.757 --> 00:21:08.521
of course memories elaborate things.

380
00:21:08.521 --> 00:21:11.613
So who knows if this was actually what was going on but

381
00:21:11.613 --> 00:21:15.978
my memory of it was that it was in part a way of saying

382
00:21:15.978 --> 00:21:19.293
we come from different traditions,

383
00:21:19.293 --> 00:21:23.460
and the safe community that can not officially all honor

384
00:21:24.456 --> 00:21:28.288
each other's liturgies and leadership,

385
00:21:28.288 --> 00:21:32.455
and practices in a way that makes us able to participate.

386
00:21:34.898 --> 00:21:37.540
So what we're gonna do here is create

387
00:21:37.540 --> 00:21:41.707
a closing liturgical action that everyone can be a part of

388
00:21:42.697 --> 00:21:46.864
that is grounded in a scripture tradition

389
00:21:47.850 --> 00:21:51.933
about milk and honey as, you know,

390
00:21:53.068 --> 00:21:56.901
really substances that are common and that are

391
00:21:57.956 --> 00:22:02.501
extravagant in their own way, and that are sweet and lovely,

392
00:22:02.501 --> 00:22:06.060
and that are in many places connected within,

393
00:22:06.060 --> 00:22:07.796
and in experiences.

394
00:22:07.796 --> 00:22:11.963
And so, also connected with, you know there's psalm imagery

395
00:22:15.126 --> 00:22:17.840
about sweeter than milk and honey,

396
00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:20.259
God's law being sweeter than milk and honey.

397
00:22:20.259 --> 00:22:22.369
I think that takes all my pain,

398
00:22:22.369 --> 00:22:25.467
and other places where that figures in scripture.

399
00:22:25.467 --> 00:22:28.550
I understood that liturgy to be about

400
00:22:29.461 --> 00:22:31.694
a celebration of inclusion,

401
00:22:31.694 --> 00:22:35.444
and a closure, a ritual closure to the event.

402
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:40.941
And of course then the parish that got a hold of it,

403
00:22:40.941 --> 00:22:42.858
and went crazy with it.

404
00:22:44.384 --> 00:22:46.189
Which was so disappointing.

405
00:22:46.189 --> 00:22:47.083
<v ->Yes.</v>

406
00:22:47.083 --> 00:22:49.415
Well that does bring us to the backlash,

407
00:22:49.415 --> 00:22:50.417
which I know you know about.

408
00:22:50.417 --> 00:22:54.584
First of all, were you directly affected by it at all?

409
00:22:56.422 --> 00:22:58.278
<v ->The only way that I was...</v>

410
00:22:58.278 --> 00:23:00.893
I was pretty removed at that particular moment in time

411
00:23:00.893 --> 00:23:02.535
because I was a graduate student.

412
00:23:02.535 --> 00:23:06.238
I was not in a church as a minister.

413
00:23:06.238 --> 00:23:09.662
I was not leading a congregation.

414
00:23:09.662 --> 00:23:12.185
Of course I participated in a church,

415
00:23:12.185 --> 00:23:16.831
but you know, in the immediacy of Re-Imagining,

416
00:23:16.831 --> 00:23:20.998
the churches that were removed from Minnesota context

417
00:23:22.015 --> 00:23:23.938
were not all that involved in it.

418
00:23:23.938 --> 00:23:26.827
They didn't have the presbyterian layman

419
00:23:26.827 --> 00:23:28.315
in their face about it.

420
00:23:28.315 --> 00:23:31.993
They weren't necessarily hyped up about it.

421
00:23:31.993 --> 00:23:34.463
So the church that I was part of in Atlanta

422
00:23:34.463 --> 00:23:37.062
wasn't really paying attention to that.

423
00:23:37.062 --> 00:23:39.312
It wasn't a thing for them.

424
00:23:40.235 --> 00:23:42.268
I wasn't in ministral leadership,

425
00:23:42.268 --> 00:23:45.607
and I, as a graduate student I really was not very involved.

426
00:23:45.607 --> 00:23:48.994
I kept my membership in the presbytery of the Twin Cities.

427
00:23:48.994 --> 00:23:52.106
But of course I was absent, excused absent,

428
00:23:52.106 --> 00:23:54.318
from most of the things that went on there,

429
00:23:54.318 --> 00:23:57.401
because of the geographical distance.

430
00:24:00.042 --> 00:24:04.233
So I wasn't in those conversations so much.

431
00:24:04.233 --> 00:24:08.400
The backlash that I experienced was more on the level of...

432
00:24:14.322 --> 00:24:15.489
Ideas I guess.

433
00:24:16.836 --> 00:24:20.762
And also of distress at watching friends,

434
00:24:20.762 --> 00:24:23.613
who were directly affected, or you know,

435
00:24:23.613 --> 00:24:26.738
clergy who were having to make decisions about

436
00:24:26.738 --> 00:24:29.655
whether to keep this event on their

437
00:24:30.872 --> 00:24:34.842
on their CV's as continuing the education that they had done

438
00:24:34.842 --> 00:24:37.252
because of the reputation that it had,

439
00:24:37.252 --> 00:24:39.646
and what that would mean, et cetera.

440
00:24:39.646 --> 00:24:41.220
<v ->Yes, yeah.</v>

441
00:24:41.220 --> 00:24:43.034
How did you react to the backlash?

442
00:24:43.034 --> 00:24:46.284
First of all, were you surprised by it?

443
00:24:47.801 --> 00:24:51.858
<v ->I was a little surprised at the vitriolic nature of it.</v>

444
00:24:51.858 --> 00:24:52.691
It was...

445
00:24:56.657 --> 00:24:57.987
It really came on strong.

446
00:24:57.987 --> 00:25:00.586
And for instance, for Mary Ann Lundy

447
00:25:00.586 --> 00:25:03.758
to end up losing her position

448
00:25:03.758 --> 00:25:07.629
in the women's desk at the national church,

449
00:25:07.629 --> 00:25:09.296
that was just crazy.

450
00:25:10.732 --> 00:25:13.423
Mary Ann had done good and faithful and important work

451
00:25:13.423 --> 00:25:14.741
in that position.

452
00:25:14.741 --> 00:25:19.712
And her involvement and participation and sponsorship

453
00:25:19.712 --> 00:25:23.879
of the conference was an act of affirmation and leadership

454
00:25:27.372 --> 00:25:31.205
on behalf of community to women in the church.

455
00:25:32.068 --> 00:25:36.187
It was as if she got demonized and tagged with

456
00:25:36.187 --> 00:25:39.460
somehow being responsible for bringing the anti-Christ

457
00:25:39.460 --> 00:25:41.373
into the PC USA.

458
00:25:41.373 --> 00:25:42.947
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

459
00:25:42.947 --> 00:25:43.800
Yeah.

460
00:25:43.800 --> 00:25:45.888
<v ->And so she had to go, you know,</v>

461
00:25:45.888 --> 00:25:47.993
it was the kind of scapegoating mechanism

462
00:25:47.993 --> 00:25:50.289
that was set into place.

463
00:25:50.289 --> 00:25:54.456
And that really surprised me on an immediate level.

464
00:25:55.595 --> 00:25:58.012
Upon deeper reflection, well,

465
00:25:59.082 --> 00:26:02.512
maybe it's not so surprising that when

466
00:26:02.512 --> 00:26:06.104
energy, intelligence, imagination, and love take shape

467
00:26:06.104 --> 00:26:09.544
in ways that people aren't expecting,

468
00:26:09.544 --> 00:26:12.711
that the forces of repression come out

469
00:26:14.053 --> 00:26:15.611
and try to push it back down.

470
00:26:15.611 --> 00:26:17.003
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

471
00:26:17.003 --> 00:26:19.024
So that's how you would account for the backlash?

472
00:26:19.024 --> 00:26:21.941
That's what was going on you think?

473
00:26:23.595 --> 00:26:28.594
<v ->I think there is just so much fear about an inclusive</v>

474
00:26:28.594 --> 00:26:33.470
church that we don't know what looks like right now.

475
00:26:33.470 --> 00:26:36.973
You know, Re-Imagining is about...

476
00:26:36.973 --> 00:26:39.232
It's an eschatological hope.

477
00:26:39.232 --> 00:26:40.486
<v ->Mmmm.</v>

478
00:26:40.486 --> 00:26:44.486
<v ->The ability to reimagine the church as a fully</v>

479
00:26:46.561 --> 00:26:50.728
inclusive community means being able to think something

480
00:26:52.139 --> 00:26:54.327
we can't yet fully grasp,

481
00:26:54.327 --> 00:26:58.939
even in our metaphors and our artistic imagination.

482
00:26:58.939 --> 00:27:01.614
But we lean toward it, and strive toward it.

483
00:27:01.614 --> 00:27:04.689
And for some people that's gonna feel really dangerous

484
00:27:04.689 --> 00:27:07.689
because it threatens the status quo.

485
00:27:08.533 --> 00:27:10.772
<v ->Well I think you just defined...</v>

486
00:27:10.772 --> 00:27:14.919
Oh sorry, I think you just defined Re-Imagining beautifully.

487
00:27:14.919 --> 00:27:18.325
What aspects of Re-Imaging were most significant to you?

488
00:27:18.325 --> 00:27:19.158
And why?

489
00:27:25.609 --> 00:27:28.735
<v ->I think that, you know, as a feminist theologian</v>

490
00:27:28.735 --> 00:27:32.902
who also cares deeply about the life of the church,

491
00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:38.583
it was really a empowering and hopeful sign to me

492
00:27:41.564 --> 00:27:45.556
that we could gather, whatever it was,

493
00:27:45.556 --> 00:27:48.942
2,000, 2,200, I don't remember, women, how many was it?

494
00:27:48.942 --> 00:27:51.327
<v ->It was 2,200 total, yup.</v>

495
00:27:51.327 --> 00:27:52.160
<v ->Okay.</v>

496
00:27:54.089 --> 00:27:57.006
And who were involved in some ways,

497
00:27:59.148 --> 00:28:01.979
participating in some way in

498
00:28:01.979 --> 00:28:04.812
the life of the church ecumenical.

499
00:28:06.064 --> 00:28:09.852
And could come together and hope for something more,

500
00:28:09.852 --> 00:28:12.352
different, other, in addition.

501
00:28:17.998 --> 00:28:21.971
In my work in my life, church and feminist theology

502
00:28:21.971 --> 00:28:25.744
were often bifurcated from each other.

503
00:28:25.744 --> 00:28:28.275
Even when I was looking for an academic job

504
00:28:28.275 --> 00:28:29.449
post graduate school,

505
00:28:29.449 --> 00:28:31.870
I was finding myself falling through the cracks.

506
00:28:31.870 --> 00:28:36.037
I would be too feminist for some church-related conditions,

507
00:28:37.431 --> 00:28:42.266
and too church for some feminist or religious studies

508
00:28:42.266 --> 00:28:44.099
related positions and,

509
00:28:46.203 --> 00:28:51.127
Re-Imagining for me was at least a place where I could

510
00:28:51.127 --> 00:28:53.218
join with others who were being both of those things

511
00:28:53.218 --> 00:28:54.512
at the same time.

512
00:28:54.512 --> 00:28:56.167
<v ->Yes.</v>

513
00:28:56.167 --> 00:28:57.788
Yeah.

514
00:28:57.788 --> 00:29:00.115
Did your involvement in Re-Imagining change your

515
00:29:00.115 --> 00:29:04.282
perspective at all on feminist theology and or the church?

516
00:29:05.982 --> 00:29:06.815
<v ->Hmm.</v>

517
00:29:10.614 --> 00:29:11.447
Let's see.

518
00:29:13.219 --> 00:29:17.136
I was trying to think about this earlier and...

519
00:29:18.946 --> 00:29:21.779
I think that it made me more aware

520
00:29:25.241 --> 00:29:28.520
of the dearth of imagination in a lot

521
00:29:28.520 --> 00:29:30.603
of the ways we do church.

522
00:29:31.695 --> 00:29:35.862
And so it really engendered in me a deeper commitment to

523
00:29:38.533 --> 00:29:40.366
nurture imagination...

524
00:29:43.290 --> 00:29:45.652
Through the kinds of narratives that we tell about

525
00:29:45.652 --> 00:29:48.720
who God is, and who we are in relation to God,

526
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:51.470
and the ways that we seek to form

527
00:29:53.637 --> 00:29:57.160
people, to apprentice them into faith,

528
00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:00.847
the imaginative act of, for instance,

529
00:30:00.847 --> 00:30:02.597
even engaging in some

530
00:30:05.719 --> 00:30:07.886
small move towards justice

531
00:30:09.346 --> 00:30:12.277
is really an imagination that things could be different

532
00:30:12.277 --> 00:30:13.656
than they are now.

533
00:30:13.656 --> 00:30:14.770
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

534
00:30:14.770 --> 00:30:17.630
<v ->And I think that knit it together for me.</v>

535
00:30:17.630 --> 00:30:20.501
The conference helped to knit that together for me because

536
00:30:20.501 --> 00:30:23.114
of the way that, well, for instance,

537
00:30:23.114 --> 00:30:25.963
even that moment that I described earlier

538
00:30:25.963 --> 00:30:30.196
that was so moving to me, and was a very concrete

539
00:30:30.196 --> 00:30:33.529
act and gesture of a larger social issue

540
00:30:35.833 --> 00:30:40.000
affecting the church that just by the physicality of it

541
00:30:43.165 --> 00:30:47.332
gave a kind of visual metaphor to that kind of inclusion.

542
00:30:48.622 --> 00:30:51.687
And I began to think a lot about the way that

543
00:30:51.687 --> 00:30:55.687
church liturgy and ritual and education and care

544
00:30:56.839 --> 00:30:59.506
need to engage imagination more.

545
00:31:02.483 --> 00:31:03.316
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

546
00:31:04.289 --> 00:31:07.379
<v ->And transcend the kind of boundaries and stuck places</v>

547
00:31:07.379 --> 00:31:09.760
where we get caught up in things.

548
00:31:09.760 --> 00:31:10.797
<v ->Yeah.</v>

549
00:31:10.797 --> 00:31:13.926
In certain ways you're already answering this question,

550
00:31:13.926 --> 00:31:16.922
but I'll ask it to see if there's anything you want to add.

551
00:31:16.922 --> 00:31:19.465
Do you think that Re-Imagining made specific contributions

552
00:31:19.465 --> 00:31:22.132
to feminist theology or liturgy?

553
00:31:24.592 --> 00:31:28.509
<v ->I think we're still sort of living out the...</v>

554
00:31:31.381 --> 00:31:32.917
What do you call this?

555
00:31:32.917 --> 00:31:36.584
What it means to have liturgies of inclusion

556
00:31:37.917 --> 00:31:42.146
in our churches that also affects policy.

557
00:31:42.146 --> 00:31:45.479
Because of course, the ways that we pray

558
00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:51.816
shape who we are, and how we go about being church...

559
00:31:51.816 --> 00:31:55.927
Ultimately the ways we are structured in our lives together.

560
00:31:55.927 --> 00:31:58.260
And so I think there's been,

561
00:32:00.590 --> 00:32:03.423
actually some hidden links between

562
00:32:04.722 --> 00:32:08.555
some of the movements toward more spontaneity,

563
00:32:10.334 --> 00:32:13.436
and liturgy, and some other things like that.

564
00:32:13.436 --> 00:32:16.986
I will say, I think this is important,

565
00:32:16.986 --> 00:32:18.522
although it sounds like I'm talking

566
00:32:18.522 --> 00:32:22.355
out of both sides of my mouth when I say this.

567
00:32:24.868 --> 00:32:27.670
When I show up in meetings like Re-Imagining

568
00:32:27.670 --> 00:32:31.911
I often feel like the local conservative.

569
00:32:31.911 --> 00:32:35.276
I'm not, but I can feel that way because

570
00:32:35.276 --> 00:32:37.647
I'm not really into the goddess stuff.

571
00:32:37.647 --> 00:32:38.480
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

572
00:32:39.779 --> 00:32:43.946
<v ->I'm really contained to believe that the church can be</v>

573
00:32:44.950 --> 00:32:47.783
a vital and important institution.

574
00:32:50.620 --> 00:32:54.787
As a means through which Christians work in the world.

575
00:32:57.656 --> 00:33:00.573
I'm pretty Trinitarian in my faith,

576
00:33:01.800 --> 00:33:04.240
and my expressions of faith.

577
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:07.573
I like and use the traditional language,

578
00:33:10.911 --> 00:33:15.662
even as I like the disruption of traditional male language

579
00:33:15.662 --> 00:33:17.909
about God and about people.

580
00:33:17.909 --> 00:33:18.792
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

581
00:33:18.792 --> 00:33:21.211
<v ->But for me, not just anything goes.</v>

582
00:33:21.211 --> 00:33:23.878
So I don't like, I don't tend to

583
00:33:24.926 --> 00:33:28.132
be one of these feminists who is comfortable

584
00:33:28.132 --> 00:33:29.747
making it up on the fly,

585
00:33:29.747 --> 00:33:33.317
and just substituting any two words for any other two words.

586
00:33:33.317 --> 00:33:34.420
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

587
00:33:34.420 --> 00:33:38.090
<v ->I think liturgical language has deep meaning that</v>

588
00:33:38.090 --> 00:33:42.169
transcends the particularity and the words themselves,

589
00:33:42.169 --> 00:33:45.252
and needs to be attended to that way.

590
00:33:47.165 --> 00:33:49.773
Part of what Re-Imagining means,

591
00:33:49.773 --> 00:33:51.846
and continues to mean for some people,

592
00:33:51.846 --> 00:33:54.976
is a way to throw out the tradition

593
00:33:54.976 --> 00:33:59.143
and put in something new where we can say anything we want.

594
00:34:02.255 --> 00:34:04.511
Disrupt the tradition by throwing it out.

595
00:34:04.511 --> 00:34:08.011
And that's not what it is for me, and I...

596
00:34:10.252 --> 00:34:11.413
<v ->Can I interrupt for one second?</v>

597
00:34:11.413 --> 00:34:12.719
I'm sorry there's someone outside

598
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.658
that's making a lot of noise.

599
00:34:14.658 --> 00:34:15.491
<v ->Sure.</v>

600
00:34:17.404 --> 00:34:19.987
(door closing)

601
00:34:20.985 --> 00:34:23.013
<v ->Thanks Joyce, I apologize.</v>

602
00:34:23.013 --> 00:34:24.940
I'm sorry, so you were saying it's

603
00:34:24.940 --> 00:34:26.928
not just substituting anything.

604
00:34:26.928 --> 00:34:29.682
By the way, I'm curious, I know it's been a long time,

605
00:34:29.682 --> 00:34:31.602
did you feel that was happening

606
00:34:31.602 --> 00:34:34.435
at the 93 Re-Imagining conference?

607
00:34:35.602 --> 00:34:37.965
<v ->You know, I think it depends a little bit</v>

608
00:34:37.965 --> 00:34:39.855
on how you look at it.

609
00:34:39.855 --> 00:34:40.855
There are...

610
00:34:44.924 --> 00:34:49.246
I'm fine being in a gathering like the 93 conference

611
00:34:49.246 --> 00:34:53.055
where a lot of people are getting really jazzed about

612
00:34:53.055 --> 00:34:55.766
goddess and dream goddess language,

613
00:34:55.766 --> 00:34:59.349
because if that's, you know, you go be you.

614
00:35:01.375 --> 00:35:03.498
If that is a helpful thing,

615
00:35:03.498 --> 00:35:07.665
and helps make sense of what sacredness is for you,

616
00:35:10.803 --> 00:35:12.675
then do that.

617
00:35:12.675 --> 00:35:14.842
What I don't like is if...

618
00:35:16.016 --> 00:35:19.933
Is assume that I have to do that in order to be

619
00:35:20.952 --> 00:35:22.891
feminist theologian, right?

620
00:35:22.891 --> 00:35:24.974
Or feminist via church.

621
00:35:24.974 --> 00:35:26.020
<v ->Right.</v>

622
00:35:26.020 --> 00:35:29.218
<v ->And at any gathering where there's a disruption</v>

623
00:35:29.218 --> 00:35:33.599
of status quo, with alternative imagery and language,

624
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:36.366
there is going to be a lean toward

625
00:35:36.366 --> 00:35:39.090
"Oh let's do this instead of that"

626
00:35:39.090 --> 00:35:39.923
<v ->Yeah.</v>

627
00:35:39.923 --> 00:35:41.587
<v ->Let's do goddess instead of God.</v>

628
00:35:41.587 --> 00:35:44.130
Let's do some instead of

629
00:35:44.130 --> 00:35:47.695
traditional Trinitarian language about God.

630
00:35:47.695 --> 00:35:49.278
Let's do, whatever.

631
00:35:51.636 --> 00:35:55.803
I don't think there was any kind of insidious pressure,

632
00:35:56.839 --> 00:35:59.787
it's just that what you feel in those kinds of gatherings

633
00:35:59.787 --> 00:36:01.630
when people are excited about something

634
00:36:01.630 --> 00:36:03.222
new that they're doing.

635
00:36:03.222 --> 00:36:04.055
<v ->Yeah.</v>

636
00:36:05.336 --> 00:36:07.788
Well you know it's interesting because

637
00:36:07.788 --> 00:36:10.745
the charges of goddess worship were brought by the

638
00:36:10.745 --> 00:36:12.470
presbyterian layman in good news.

639
00:36:12.470 --> 00:36:14.755
And the people who organized Re-Imagining

640
00:36:14.755 --> 00:36:17.602
said that that's not what they were doing.

641
00:36:17.602 --> 00:36:19.517
<v ->That's right, that's right.</v>

642
00:36:19.517 --> 00:36:23.684
But, there were a number of places in the conference where

643
00:36:24.654 --> 00:36:28.821
I think speakers used goddess language either in prayer or

644
00:36:29.948 --> 00:36:31.931
in the conversations around the tables,

645
00:36:31.931 --> 00:36:33.589
which were part of the design.

646
00:36:33.589 --> 00:36:34.422
<v ->Ahhh.</v>

647
00:36:34.422 --> 00:36:36.064
<v ->People of course were free to speak</v>

648
00:36:36.064 --> 00:36:39.650
whatever they wanted to, and for some of them they were

649
00:36:39.650 --> 00:36:42.515
in that space of talking about that.

650
00:36:42.515 --> 00:36:46.659
Yes it is the case, but there was nothing in the formal

651
00:36:46.659 --> 00:36:49.409
actual liturgical practices or...

652
00:36:50.601 --> 00:36:54.163
Or the topics or anything like that.

653
00:36:54.163 --> 00:36:55.954
That was about goddess worship.

654
00:36:55.954 --> 00:36:57.570
That's very clear.

655
00:36:57.570 --> 00:37:01.237
But, when you get 2,200 people interested in

656
00:37:03.758 --> 00:37:05.763
feminist theology together,

657
00:37:05.763 --> 00:37:06.749
<v ->Yeah.</v>

658
00:37:06.749 --> 00:37:09.550
<v ->In 1993 as well as now, there's gonna be some of those</v>

659
00:37:09.550 --> 00:37:13.717
other imagery of the sacred, including goddess imagery

660
00:37:14.911 --> 00:37:17.041
is most useful and prominent.

661
00:37:17.041 --> 00:37:17.874
<v ->Right.</v>

662
00:37:18.912 --> 00:37:21.487
Yes, thank you, you're right, yes, thanks.

663
00:37:21.487 --> 00:37:25.109
I'm getting near the end here, I appreciate your comments.

664
00:37:25.109 --> 00:37:27.609
In the end, what do you think is the greatest legacy

665
00:37:27.609 --> 00:37:31.359
of the Re-Imagining conference and community?

666
00:37:35.175 --> 00:37:38.342
<v ->I think a lot of people individually</v>

667
00:37:41.116 --> 00:37:44.866
experienced uplift, and that's a good legacy.

668
00:37:46.195 --> 00:37:47.278
I think that,

669
00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:50.237
ironically,

670
00:37:52.042 --> 00:37:56.660
the repressive effect in communities of faith like

671
00:37:56.660 --> 00:38:00.827
the presbyterian church and having to deal with the layman,

672
00:38:01.818 --> 00:38:05.985
and the crack-down on staff people and all that stuff,

673
00:38:07.278 --> 00:38:10.111
is the via negativa of the legacy.

674
00:38:12.274 --> 00:38:13.941
It's the on-going...

675
00:38:16.396 --> 00:38:19.555
The backlash is itself a legacy.

676
00:38:19.555 --> 00:38:23.811
It's not a positive legacy, but it is part of the story

677
00:38:23.811 --> 00:38:28.763
of how the church received alternative perspective,

678
00:38:28.763 --> 00:38:32.513
and how it tries to maintain it's homeostasis

679
00:38:33.702 --> 00:38:36.435
in the face of new stuff.

680
00:38:36.435 --> 00:38:38.102
So that's important.

681
00:38:39.897 --> 00:38:42.719
The positive aspects of legacy

682
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:45.351
are more the things that we've talked about, I think.

683
00:38:45.351 --> 00:38:48.018
The things about an awakening of

684
00:38:49.663 --> 00:38:53.191
possibilities of imagination, that church can be different,

685
00:38:53.191 --> 00:38:56.691
that people can be together across various

686
00:38:59.571 --> 00:39:03.659
kinds of identity differences that are present.

687
00:39:03.659 --> 00:39:07.826
Certainly the movement for LGBTQ justice in the churches

688
00:39:11.686 --> 00:39:15.975
and the, you know, the social movement, for example,

689
00:39:15.975 --> 00:39:18.406
marriage equality movement and other things.

690
00:39:18.406 --> 00:39:20.323
Those all don't have...

691
00:39:22.556 --> 00:39:25.159
They don't happen in isolation from each other.

692
00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:27.635
And I think something like Re-Imagining

693
00:39:27.635 --> 00:39:32.290
in its own small way participates in moving the church

694
00:39:32.290 --> 00:39:33.873
in a new way there.

695
00:39:35.437 --> 00:39:38.763
Maybe even we could say some of the...

696
00:39:38.763 --> 00:39:41.588
I'm not a huge emerging church fan,

697
00:39:41.588 --> 00:39:44.632
but I will say that it's probable to me,

698
00:39:44.632 --> 00:39:47.587
it makes sense to me that some of the

699
00:39:47.587 --> 00:39:50.587
kind of gestures toward openness and

700
00:39:53.615 --> 00:39:56.998
spontaneity and the kind of joy of

701
00:39:56.998 --> 00:40:00.915
the Re-Imagining conference lends themselves to

702
00:40:03.069 --> 00:40:06.015
re imagining church in some of the ways that emergent

703
00:40:06.015 --> 00:40:08.098
churches are talking about.

704
00:40:08.098 --> 00:40:10.315
<v ->Oh interesting, okay.</v>

705
00:40:10.315 --> 00:40:12.880
You know, some of the goals of Re-Imagining were to

706
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:16.095
bring inclusive or expansive language and feminist theology

707
00:40:16.095 --> 00:40:18.761
to churches to kind of bridge that gap between

708
00:40:18.761 --> 00:40:20.186
the academy and the churches.

709
00:40:20.186 --> 00:40:24.353
How would you evaluate where we are today in that regard?

710
00:40:31.592 --> 00:40:32.444
<v ->Yeah.</v>

711
00:40:32.444 --> 00:40:34.694
(laughing)

712
00:40:35.804 --> 00:40:38.134
In some ways it feels like we've gone

713
00:40:38.134 --> 00:40:40.884
a little bit backwards, actually.

714
00:40:42.290 --> 00:40:45.957
And maybe that's the effect of the backlash.

715
00:40:51.596 --> 00:40:54.958
There's a generation of young women in churches

716
00:40:54.958 --> 00:40:56.958
and in society today who

717
00:40:58.897 --> 00:41:01.685
say I'm not a feminist but,

718
00:41:01.685 --> 00:41:02.518
<v ->Right.</v>

719
00:41:02.518 --> 00:41:06.445
<v ->Who choose to use other language to identify the</v>

720
00:41:06.445 --> 00:41:08.296
libratorian causes that they

721
00:41:08.296 --> 00:41:11.629
that they are and feel, and that's okay.

722
00:41:12.939 --> 00:41:13.835
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

723
00:41:13.835 --> 00:41:16.002
<v ->What it does, however is</v>

724
00:41:18.674 --> 00:41:21.424
sometimes to not acknowledge the,

725
00:41:22.369 --> 00:41:24.837
the way we all stand on each other's shoulders.

726
00:41:24.837 --> 00:41:27.141
I stand on Letty Russel's shoulders,

727
00:41:27.141 --> 00:41:30.025
and I stand on Rosemary Ruether's shoulders,

728
00:41:30.025 --> 00:41:34.794
and I am here in my position at Yale Divinity School because

729
00:41:34.794 --> 00:41:37.407
of the trouble that other women engaged in.

730
00:41:37.407 --> 00:41:38.574
And I think...

731
00:41:39.767 --> 00:41:42.100
Yeah, and so far as there is

732
00:41:44.190 --> 00:41:48.229
a broader expanse of use of language or

733
00:41:48.229 --> 00:41:51.729
of structure, or of white in the churches.

734
00:41:53.502 --> 00:41:57.399
Moments like the Re-Imagining conference in 1993

735
00:41:57.399 --> 00:41:59.157
don't cause them, but they certainly

736
00:41:59.157 --> 00:42:01.490
participate and assist them.

737
00:42:02.768 --> 00:42:04.040
So I think what I'm saying is,

738
00:42:04.040 --> 00:42:07.624
where that occurs, it makes sense to me that it's

739
00:42:07.624 --> 00:42:11.196
funded in some way by a little nomative.

740
00:42:11.196 --> 00:42:12.115
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

741
00:42:12.115 --> 00:42:15.448
<v ->Of libratory, emancipatory experiences</v>

742
00:42:17.037 --> 00:42:19.154
in a conference like that.

743
00:42:19.154 --> 00:42:20.867
But there also is a lot of backlash,

744
00:42:20.867 --> 00:42:23.108
so it's uneven, I guess that's what I'm saying.

745
00:42:23.108 --> 00:42:24.497
<v ->Yeah, yeah.</v>

746
00:42:24.497 --> 00:42:27.087
I have two final questions, I appreciate your time.

747
00:42:27.087 --> 00:42:28.820
One is a big question.

748
00:42:28.820 --> 00:42:31.250
Given your writings, your position in pastoral care,

749
00:42:31.250 --> 00:42:34.601
I would love to hear what you see as needing,

750
00:42:34.601 --> 00:42:37.590
or re-imagining today, and I mean that in the broad sense.

751
00:42:37.590 --> 00:42:39.258
I don't just mean the Re-Imagining conference.

752
00:42:39.258 --> 00:42:43.212
What in the church needs to be re-imagined,

753
00:42:43.212 --> 00:42:45.712
or is being re-imagined today?

754
00:42:47.501 --> 00:42:52.440
<v ->I would put racial justice issues at the top of my list.</v>

755
00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:57.024
I think across the board in the way we educate for faith,

756
00:42:57.024 --> 00:43:01.191
in the way we care for people in the community and the world

757
00:43:03.457 --> 00:43:06.985
The way we engage one another across differences

758
00:43:06.985 --> 00:43:09.034
of race and ethnicities,

759
00:43:09.034 --> 00:43:11.332
the way we've learned whiteness,

760
00:43:11.332 --> 00:43:13.604
and the meanings of whiteness that, you know,

761
00:43:13.604 --> 00:43:18.476
the capacity to re-imagine what it means to be white,

762
00:43:18.476 --> 00:43:21.309
without having that being mired in

763
00:43:23.205 --> 00:43:25.788
it's legacy of blind privilege.

764
00:43:26.990 --> 00:43:31.157
That's a really big step, and I think that's kind of the

765
00:43:32.271 --> 00:43:34.355
fulcrum right now.

766
00:43:34.355 --> 00:43:38.522
As many movements have made us more aware in recent days,

767
00:43:40.815 --> 00:43:42.762
such as Black Lives Matter.

768
00:43:42.762 --> 00:43:44.038
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

769
00:43:44.038 --> 00:43:48.121
<v ->I would say the continuing search to understand</v>

770
00:43:51.780 --> 00:43:52.697
what God is

771
00:43:54.387 --> 00:43:57.470
saying to us in scripture and how we,

772
00:43:58.554 --> 00:44:01.386
how we make sense of scripture, what it means to us.

773
00:44:01.386 --> 00:44:05.553
To talk about a text as authoritative in our lives.

774
00:44:07.096 --> 00:44:10.596
That continues to open around questions of

775
00:44:12.419 --> 00:44:13.967
who the interpreters are,

776
00:44:13.967 --> 00:44:16.722
and all sorts of things like that.

777
00:44:16.722 --> 00:44:20.808
That question's premial estate is there all the time.

778
00:44:20.808 --> 00:44:22.904
But it's one that matters in this place.

779
00:44:22.904 --> 00:44:27.207
Of course, always the big inclusion issues remain.

780
00:44:27.207 --> 00:44:28.040
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

781
00:44:29.221 --> 00:44:30.811
Thank you, that's great.

782
00:44:30.811 --> 00:44:33.297
My last question is very specific.

783
00:44:33.297 --> 00:44:36.938
We are working on a new Re-Imagining website,

784
00:44:36.938 --> 00:44:38.988
and part of it would be historical.

785
00:44:38.988 --> 00:44:42.303
We'll have a digitized version of all the conferences,

786
00:44:42.303 --> 00:44:44.723
a lot of other historical materials.

787
00:44:44.723 --> 00:44:49.198
But we'd also like to include resources for people today.

788
00:44:49.198 --> 00:44:51.630
And I'm wondering if you have any ideas about

789
00:44:51.630 --> 00:44:55.797
what should be included, and who would benefit from it?

790
00:44:58.067 --> 00:45:01.900
<v ->Certainly would be good to include a link to</v>

791
00:45:04.158 --> 00:45:08.120
Mary Tutt and Diane Newman's center water.

792
00:45:08.120 --> 00:45:09.287
<v ->Yes, mm hmm.</v>

793
00:45:10.274 --> 00:45:13.073
<v ->And some of their many many resources.</v>

794
00:45:13.073 --> 00:45:17.568
They have for instance, Diane has written this great...

795
00:45:17.568 --> 00:45:21.847
It's available in a little packet of prayers for people

796
00:45:21.847 --> 00:45:25.543
dealing with cancer, specifically for women, it's great,

797
00:45:25.543 --> 00:45:28.757
that I use a lot in pastoral care work,

798
00:45:28.757 --> 00:45:32.424
and the language is grounded and in reality,

799
00:45:34.855 --> 00:45:37.772
and it's good stuff, it's powerful.

800
00:45:39.651 --> 00:45:41.734
I would say a link there.

801
00:45:43.996 --> 00:45:47.246
Gosh, there's so many, there's so many.

802
00:45:48.970 --> 00:45:52.173
It would be interesting to have

803
00:45:52.173 --> 00:45:55.590
some way of perioditizing bibliographies.

804
00:45:56.791 --> 00:45:57.701
<v ->Mmm.</v>

805
00:45:57.701 --> 00:46:02.364
<v ->Because feminist theology, and feminist thought</v>

806
00:46:02.364 --> 00:46:06.281
happen in relation to the wider social movement

807
00:46:07.584 --> 00:46:09.667
in which they're located.

808
00:46:12.899 --> 00:46:15.140
I don't know if we would want to do it in terms of

809
00:46:15.140 --> 00:46:17.780
language, first wave, second wave, third wave.

810
00:46:17.780 --> 00:46:20.780
But at least to locate particular...

811
00:46:25.668 --> 00:46:29.835
And scholarship of feminist theology in its context in time

812
00:46:32.631 --> 00:46:35.018
would be helpful, for instance,

813
00:46:35.018 --> 00:46:38.086
if you look at Letty Russel's very first published book,

814
00:46:38.086 --> 00:46:38.919
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

815
00:46:38.919 --> 00:46:40.886
<v ->She's writing as efficient educator,</v>

816
00:46:40.886 --> 00:46:44.476
and she uses male gendered language and pronouns throughout.

817
00:46:44.476 --> 00:46:45.619
<v ->Yes.</v>

818
00:46:45.619 --> 00:46:47.536
<v ->By the time she wrote</v>

819
00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:53.515
Human Liberation, she has had a transformation there,

820
00:46:53.515 --> 00:46:56.697
and is really calling on people to notice

821
00:46:56.697 --> 00:47:00.614
the way that language and other things function

822
00:47:02.060 --> 00:47:05.128
to create the realities that we know.

823
00:47:05.128 --> 00:47:05.961
<v ->Yes.</v>

824
00:47:06.908 --> 00:47:10.325
<v ->Those two sources are part of a process</v>

825
00:47:11.876 --> 00:47:14.788
that feminist theology has been in.

826
00:47:14.788 --> 00:47:15.666
<v ->Mm hmm.</v>

827
00:47:15.666 --> 00:47:19.867
<v ->And so if we had a way of reading things in their context,</v>

828
00:47:19.867 --> 00:47:22.918
I think it would help us make better sense of

829
00:47:22.918 --> 00:47:26.829
some of the differences, and just the change across time

830
00:47:26.829 --> 00:47:27.864
of feminist thought.

831
00:47:27.864 --> 00:47:30.833
Because the central issue is that all feminist thought

832
00:47:30.833 --> 00:47:32.455
is not the same thought.

833
00:47:32.455 --> 00:47:33.288
<v ->Right.</v>

834
00:47:33.288 --> 00:47:36.185
<v ->All feminist theology does not say the same thing</v>

835
00:47:36.185 --> 00:47:40.834
about who God is, about the personhood, about church.

836
00:47:40.834 --> 00:47:42.007
Evidence near daily.

837
00:47:42.007 --> 00:47:42.840
<v ->Right.</v>

838
00:47:44.147 --> 00:47:47.215
<v ->So I think if we have the containers in a website</v>

839
00:47:47.215 --> 00:47:49.881
that offers people resources,

840
00:47:49.881 --> 00:47:54.037
that it help them locate the various kinds of things

841
00:47:54.037 --> 00:47:55.371
that they're looking at.

842
00:47:55.371 --> 00:47:56.771
<v ->Oh that's a great idea.</v>

843
00:47:56.771 --> 00:47:57.604
Thank you.

844
00:47:58.607 --> 00:48:01.319
Before we go, is there anything that we haven't discussed

845
00:48:01.319 --> 00:48:04.152
that you would like to add, Joyce?

846
00:48:06.067 --> 00:48:07.255
<v ->I'm glad you're doing this.</v>

847
00:48:07.255 --> 00:48:08.672
<v ->Thanks, me too.</v>

848
00:48:09.662 --> 00:48:12.622
<v ->It's pushing my memory, you know?</v>

849
00:48:12.622 --> 00:48:15.822
I have to reach back there a long way...

850
00:48:15.822 --> 00:48:18.072
(laughing)

851
00:48:18.981 --> 00:48:22.397
To remember what happened back then, but...

852
00:48:22.397 --> 00:48:24.155
Yeah (laughs)

853
00:48:24.155 --> 00:48:26.653
<v ->Well thank you, I'm gonna stop the recording now.</v>

854
00:48:26.653 --> 00:48:28.843
I really appreciate it, what a great interview.

855
00:48:28.843 --> 00:48:29.676
Hold on one second.