- Doris, thank you so much for agreeing to do the interview. If you could please say and spell your name. - It's Doris Pagelkopf, P-A-G-E-L-K-O-P-F. B as in ball, F as in Frank. - Thank you very much. I have a feeling you've said this before. - Yes. - And are you lay or clergy? - I'm lay. - And your denominational affiliation? - ELCA. - ELCA, great. And Doris, when and where were you born? - I was born in Memphis, Tennessee on October 27th, 1938. - Great, thank you very much! And where did you go to school, graduate or divinity school if you did? - The only thing I've done divinity was I started a lay school of theology in Boston. Krister Stendahl was our first teacher. And somebody said you can't go ask him and I said, why not? (laughing) - Good for you! - I've taken a lot of lay classes at Luther Seminary over the years, but nothing formal. Lots of lay classes. And as far as undergraduate et cetera, I don't have an undergraduate or a graduate degree. I've spent quite a bit of time at the Humphrey Institute of, was in some of their premiere programs and they let me in without an undergraduate degree, 'cause I messed around. I took lots of classes. I went to art school when I lived in Boston. I did all sorts of things. And so, I went through a career development center in Boston that the bishop of the synod sent me to 'cause he knew I was thinking about going back to work. And I went through in a school group and they were all clergy, six of them, and they all had their PHDs. And at the end, they said, don't stop and get your degree. Just keep going. And so I took their advice. And I've never regretted it. (laughing) 'Cause I keep learning and keep taking classes. - You do! You've done such creative and interesting things. I can already tell, so. - (laughing) Yes. - Exactly, that's great. So what work or ministry were you doing at the time of Re-Imagining? - In the work world, I was vice president of regional junior achievement and did some global work for them in Uzbekistan. And in the church, I was chairing the Commission for Women for the ELCA, which was when the ELCA was formed, they elected two commissions, one, the Multicultural Commission and one, the Commission on Women. And we had six staff people in Chicago. And our mission was to rid the church of sexism in all of its expressions, congregations, colleges, and seminaries. - So wow, so this was a national position, staff position. It was not full time, though? - No, I chaired the board. And we had six staff people. - Oh, I see. - At the ELCA in Chicago. And I was there a lot. Lots of issues going on. - Actually, this is fascinating. Could you say a little bit more about what you did as chair of the board? This is very interesting. - Right. I don't recall how many times we met a year, but we were there to do the strategic plan and I spoke at synod assemblies as chair and it was to plan the work of our staff to work in all those different institutions. Because very early on we discovered that to help pave the way for ordained women, because this was, they'd been ordained for a while, but it was still really awful. And the war stories, I kept saying I'd publish a book, but I said then it would destroy the church because of what I've heard is so foul, I can't believe it. But it was really helping people experience ordained women, because we knew that when we came up against a congregation that was dead set against not even interviewing a woman, that if they began to have the experience, that things changed. The simplest of all things was what I believe changed people the most and our biggest supporters were the little gray-haired ladies sitting in the back row, because they'd say I always wanted to be a pastor and now we can do it. And now we can do it. So sometimes your allies are the least expected. - I just have to ask this, so how did you prepare the way for the ordained women? What did you do? - It was through materials and coursework, lots of published papers, and our staff was constantly looking for venues around the country and around the church to speak and to engage with people. So it was using lots and lots of media. One of the funniest things that we did in the church office in Chicago, we had a cutout of a female bishop. And you could go up and put your head in it and have your photo taken. - Oh, that's great! - So, we had humor too. - Yes, yes, yes. So were you also going to individual congregations? - Yes, we'd go to individual congregations, spent a lot of time with the women's organization of the church, Lutheran Church Women, well, at that point it had morphed into Women of the ELCA. But because lots of feminists there. At least for the ones of us that came from the LCA. Lutheran Church Women, we were trained to be feminists that would change the church. (laughing) - That is great. - Not everybody realized that. - Yes, really! (laughing) And I do wanna move on, but I just am so fascinated by this, without I guess going into real specifics, this was 1993 that this was happening. So when you said there were war stories, I mean generally what kinds of things were women experiencing? - I was at a Lutheran women's gathering weekend kind of conference and we always had ordained women that were with us. And the one that was the chaplain of the weekend, 'cause I had a lot of private conversations with them because I was a safe person to talk to and so I heard a lot of things. And this one particular woman, when she went back, got on the plane and went back to work on Monday, she didn't have a job. And there had been trumped-up charges about her around sexuality in her congregation. And she'd literally been kicked out without any compensation say for three months or six months. Nothing. They had trumped-up charges and they had kicked her out. Now, hopefully there weren't a whole lot of those. That's the worst that I heard. Most of the stories I heard were regular kinds of things that you would expect as we bring about change. But that one was the worst, right? - Yeah, that is, that is. So what work or ministry did you do after Re-Imagining? - After Re-Imagining, good grief. I've been on about five national boards of the ELCA, very deeply involved in Ministry of the Lady and because I believe as a lay person I've been called to do the things that I'm doing. But also all the social justice issues. I've been presidents of congregations. I think I've held every job there is for a lay person in a congregation. But, these days it really focuses on the justice issues: racism, major, LBGTQ issues, because I happen to belong to an extremely liberal ELC congregation, yeah. - Great, and you mentioned you were on the global board of-- - Of the YWCA. - Right, okay, right. - Right, right. And I, during that time, because globally the YWCA is a Christian movement. We aren't in this country. But I've traveled the world for them and I've done training on five continents, in Asia and Africa and Australia and the Middle East and all over North America for the World YWCA. So, and much of that time, some of the deepest Christians that I've worked with in the YWCA are in Asia. - Really? - Yeah. - There's so much we can talk about, I have to move on. What is your title now, your role now for the United Way? - Oh, I'm executive director of the statewide association. I have 40 United Ways. And I'm their mom. - Okay. (laughing) - And it's a retirement job. - Is it really? - Yeah, I'm 77 years old. Of course, nobody that I work for here know that I'm 77. I'm sure they could guess, but -- - No, they wouldn't believe it. I can already tell. (laughing) - But it just gives me a chance to again, work on justice issues in communities all across the state. It's a fabulous retirement job. I can't believe I'm lucky enough to get it. I've been doing it for 12 years. And it's part-time, it's half-time. So I can still do all the other things. (laughing) - Wow, well, you're a model for retirement, let me tell ya. (laughing) - A scary one for some folks. - Now, I was gonna ask how and when you first became aware of feminist theology. Now you already mentioned the LCA. Tell me some more about how and when you first became -- - Well, in the Lutheran Church in America, we lived in Boston for a few years and that was when I took some lay classes at Harvard Divinity and met Krister Stendahl and his wife Brita, I think it was. And Krister Stendahl had, and this was back in 1978, '77. And Krister, he was the Bishop of Sweden at times and then sometimes the dean of Harvard Divinity. He had this little, teeny book that was about feminist theology. And I read that and I just went nuts. I said, I can't believe it. Here is this incredible man from Sweden who is just, this is who I am! (laughing) Yeah, that was my first introduction to feminist, in the late '70s. - Oh, I love it, that's great. And you immediately resonated with it. - Immediately, immediately, right. - Can we talk about relationship to the Re-Imagining community? - Right, right. - Yes. Now what led to your initial involvement? - I was involved in the Global Decade on Women, United Nations, very much so, in the Lutheran Church through Lutheran women's organizations, et cetera, but also at the World YWCA. So the Decade on Women was a part of what I thought about every day. And I absolutely do not recall who invited me to come on this planning committee, 'cause it could've been a vast array of people. I don't know who it was. Don't recall that. - You were involved with Sally Hill and that group planning. - Yes, right, exactly. - Could you tell me a little bit about what you remember about that planning process? - It was chaotic. In great ways because it was women's way of working. There was no hierarchical director. And everything that everybody said was deeply valued. And although we came from all Protestants and coming from similar backgrounds, with a little different theology, but it was still just exciting to hear that Presbyterian women and UCC, et cetera, they were all at the same place in their churches. And it began to feel like this is something that needs to be a global movement because we can make more change that way, if we work together. And it was the excitement of being involved in this ecumenical movement. It really was incredible. Although I must say, the meetings were absolutely chaotic because nobody ever stood up and said, now we've gotta get to it, we've gotta do it this way. It just evolved. And it worked! (laughing) Although I was very frustrated, 'cause I was one of the only lay people on the committee and the committee meetings were down at the church center on Franklin Avenue, always at noon. Well, I had to leave work and then I had to go back and so it was always, but, you know, I was only one. Maybe there were other lay women, I don't remember other lay women, but. - Do you remember how it evolved to be the Global Theological Colloquium? 'Cause I think, do you remember anything about that? - No. It gained credibility so fast. And then when the event happened itself, then I think all sorts of things were written and stated and talked about that we hadn't dreamed about because it had so much power, positive power, because of the people who came. And then when you have people bashing you with untruths, it makes you even stronger and more determined that you know you have to make change. - Right, right. I know it's been a while, do you have special moments that you remember from the '93 Re-Imagining gathering? - Well, this one's goofy. Walking in the door, I remember quite clearly because I had stopped at home, I'd left my office, I'd stopped at home, and our house had just been burglarized and with a hold-up guy with a gun -- - Oh no. - And they'd walked off with a few things, but my husband was just panicked 'cause he confronted the guy. But anyway, I waited a while, and then I said, I'm really late and he said, I know, you've gotta go. It's okay, the police have been here. But that's how I walked in the door. (laughing) - Oh my goodness, Doris. - I think there's a book written, I can't remember who wrote the book. - Re-Imagining and now that you say that, I remember that essay that you wrote. - I think I told that whole story. - You did, you did. Absolutely, you did, wow. - Yeah, I remember the liturgy and the music. The liturgy was just spectacular. I mean, I sang it for years because it was so deeply meaningful, those words. And the theologians. But you know, if I think about, it was the music and the words that were the most powerful because now we had words, and they had been published, that we could use all over. And we hadn't had that before. And then again, the ecumenism of it was so strong. This would've been just a teeny blip in the scene of the world if it had just been one denomination. - And was this your first experience of that kind of liturgy, a feminist liturgy and worship? - No, but that strong a feminism. Because in the ELCA, there were feminist writers and we had music and we used to sing some of them at Lutheran women's conventions. Because we got in trouble with the hierarchy of the church every once in a while 'cause we were such strong feminists. (laughing) - That's great, oh my goodness. So can we talk about the backlash now? - Yes. - Okay, so it did affect you directly. Could you say a little bit about how it affected you? - There was a person, a Lutheran pastor in Chicago who worked for the church who I didn't know well at all, who gave me an incredible verbal tongue-lashing without ever even talking to me about if any of it was true that was being said. And for me, that was just demoralizing is too strong, disappointed. I was deeply disappointed in her that she didn't know that she should maybe talk to me and some others first. The backlash against others was so strong, I think particularly really of Mary Ann Lundy. 'Cause I knew Mary Ann. I had met her, we lived close together in Minnetonka when she and her husband were at Saint Luke's. And Mary Ann, I was in Geneva, Switzerland at a YWCA meeting, board meeting, and Mary Ann used to work for the YWCA. I mean, it's all entwined. It's hard to even remember, because it's all, you know, all the organizations. But I said, Mary Ann, how are you? And she said, I'm fine, I got fired up. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, well, you know, the Presbyterian Church fired me, but now I'm the deputy general secretary of the World Council of Churches. (laughing) It's like, ah! This is fabulous! So in hindsight, it's easy to look at that that some of that was necessary and it's a part of the change process, because those stories horrify people. That, you mean it was really that bad for women in the church? Yes, it was really that bad. So in hindsight, it's easy to say they had to go through it, and it was the trumped-up charges that were the most painful. - Which charges are you thinking of? - When they talked about milk and honey and what was the name of it? It was a Lutheran publication coming out of, I don't know, it was Missouri senate or Wisconsin senate and was it called Lutheran Partners? No, I think that came out of Luther Seminary. This was a very conservative, and I was mentioned in there and was called a heretic. And everybody said, well, that's a badge of courage. Good going, girl! (laughing) Good for you! I'm an activist, you can tell. - Yes, really. - But the way that the reporters sat along the sides and manufactured things. But it translates to our national politics right now. It's just horrendous what people believe. And how can people sit at a gathering of incredible women who are so excited and who are so full of the Holy Spirit, and manufacture this stuff? But it's a part of our DNA. We see things differently. But that was horrifying about how we were reported on. But we were about change and the future. And a lot of people still, they don't want it changed. They don't want the future. They don't want to involve people of color or women. It ties in directly with racism, all of it. The homophobes, all of it. Let's keep 'em down and if it takes lying, then we'll do it. - So that's how you account for it. Part of it was this resistance to change. - Oh, heavens yes. - Were there other things in particular that led to it? - Led to that backlash? No, I think it was mostly change. And but, at the basis of that is a deep-rooted belief in conservative theology, yeah. - Yeah. - And believing that women need to be in their place and they should be seen but not heard. I mean, people believe that in their heart and soul. - Yeah, and you're Lutheran. Most of the people I've talked to are Methodist and Presbyterian, so I wonder if you have some insight into how the Lutheran reaction was different than it was in the other denominations. - It wasn't as bad, but we hadn't put much money in. I couldn't get much money out of the church to support it. And some of them really went out there and they were able to raise a lot of money. But they were also ordained women that were well known. And I was a lay woman that was at all of those meetings. So we didn't have as much invested. - Yes. - Yeah, right. - Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. - Right. - How in the end would you define Re-Imagining? - It was a gathering of people, mostly women, whose time had come. And we were incredibly spirit-filled. And this was a vehicle for change for society, for the church. And we were lucky enough to be a part of that vehicle. And to say yes, use me. - Yeah, and you were part of the Re-Imagining community that formed. - Right. - What do you remember about how that was formed, why it was formed? - Well, it was formed to continue on. I mean, we didn't wanna stop. This was just the beginning. And I was involved for a while but then again, I got morphed into the World YWCA. And it just took every single ounce, 'cause I had a very time-consuming job, plus I had major church involvements. (laughing) Then I had the YWCA involvements. And I am an activist. And so, I just bowed out. I wasn't mad at anybody, nothing had happened. It was, well, what are we accomplishing now and others can carry on. I'm not a theologian. And I don't see a spot for me here that, I see other spots where I can make a bigger difference. - Sure. - Right. - Yeah, sure. Earlier you said something about sort of that backlash makes you more determined. Is that what you saw happening with this group? - Probably. It was the backlash because the backlash meant that we had just gotten people, people were just beginning to think about this and discuss it. And how can you drop that when you've started it? And because it takes a long time for a lot of people to change. So I think it was the will of the group that we've got to keep going here, friends. We've just scratched the surface. Right, right, exactly. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, you've already talked some about this when you talk about the planning, but how do you think feminist theology affected the structure and functioning of the community? - Oh! It was, as I mentioned, that the meetings were a little chaotic and it was moving into women's way of running things. (laughing) And everything was female. I mean, in my congregation we never say our father, who art in heaven, it's gracious God or other things. I mean, it changed things like that. In my own church, which was way ahead of its time, it always has been, my congregation. It really, the language, which for me has always been one of the most important pieces. Because without the language, nothing is gonna change. I was at an event Saturday night when they were calling women girls. And I had all I could do not to just slap hands. I didn't say anything 'cause it was a fun party, but normally I do. I'm the one who's known for doing that. But language is deeply important. So I think, not just because of the music and the liturgy, but just the use at our meetings of feminist words, et cetera, women's words. It was life giving. I mean, the whole thing was life giving. - That's great. - I don't know if I answered your question. I talked in circles. - You did, you did. No, you're saying great things. That is really helpful. What aspects of Re-Imagining, you've already kinda said this, it helps sometimes when I ask the question and you come up with a different answer. If you've already said it, that's fine, but what aspects of Re-Imagining were most significant to you and why? - Most significant was that I was included in the church and that all women were included in the church and that we were important and that we were theologians, lay and ordained. Because I had fought that forever, as we all had in our churches. When we moved to Boston, I was on a senate committee and at the last, I was always the only woman and the only lay woman in those years, in the '60s and early '70s. And at my last senate meeting, this pastor said, Doris, we're really gonna miss your pretty face around here. And a pastor friend sitting next to me, he said, oh no, we're gonna miss your brains. But we'd all fought that. And now, this was a beach hat. (laughing) It really was a beach hat. We are who we are. We are. God is not father. All the things that we'd all been fighting all these years. It was validated. Yeah, the feminist way of thinking was validated. (laughing) - Aw, that's great. How did your involvement in Re-Imagining change your perspective on feminist theology and or the church? - I don't think it changed my thinking about the church, because I've always sort of been a realist and I know that it takes lots of steps and different things to make change. And people have to have personal experiences, usually, before they're ever really gonna change. It has to affect them. And how, was the first part of the question how did it change me? - Your perspective on feminist, but how did it change you? Whatever comes to mind. - Sure. It really didn't change my perspective, it just confirmed what I believed. (laughing) And what I felt in my heart and soul. - Yeah. - But it gave such validity to these thoughts that, you know, Hildegard of Bingen had. I love Hildegard of Bingen's writings. - Me too. - What a feminist out of what? The 15th century or 14th? (laughing) - Even earlier than that, yes. - Yeah, exactly. But that was another aspect for those of us who have read about our foremothers and I visited Katie Luther's church in Germany. And I mean, she was a raving feminist. But she survived! She even made beer for Martin Luther. (laughing) - Exactly. - But it was confirmation for all of our foremothers also that we were finally getting there. - You know, I have to ask you, 'cause some people wonder this, you maintained your role in the church, important roles in the church, what kept you there? - Wow, God. (laughing) The Holy Spirit! Really. I guess it came about when I wasn't going to church and my husband was taking our little kids to church. And we had an incredible pastor, Ron Peterson, a fabulous man. And I ran everything in the community, but didn't do anything at church. And he said, Doris, why don't you quit bitching and get in and change the church? And that stuck with me my whole life. - Wow. - This is my church too. - Yes. - This is my church. And the way it is now, it's so limiting. It isn't life giving. It's limiting for everybody! And so was fighting to make it what it really is supposed to be, a holistic place for everyone. And here's something else that I'm very aware of. I could easily spend 100% of my time on the church. But I've always fought against that because I want to be in the world. I'm not called to be in the church. I'm called to make the changes in the world on racism, et cetera. It's what's got me in the United Way. It's what's taken me all over the world with the YWCA. So I mean, and I deeply love the church, I just love it. And it's where everything that I care about is. So, but in order to be healthy, I have to keep half of me in the world. 'Cause I don't think it counts otherwise. I'm not here to change the church, I'm here to change the world. (laughing) On a small task. - Well, earlier you said something about wanting to change the church. Is it both or are you still trying to change the church or -- - No. Because I'm not at the national level any more or even at the senate level. I'm just deeply involved in my own congregation. And deeply involved still in the World YWCA, et cetera. So I love my church. I'm lucky to go to Edina Community Lutheran Church. It just a fabulous place. - What do you love about it? - I love its inclusiveness and that I can be exactly who I am. And always my husband and I had to hide in churches that we were the most liberal in the congregation. We don't have to hide that any more. (laughing) And the other thing is that people live their faith out there in the world. It is, everybody there, they are deeply involved in justice issues in the world. They're doing what they're supposed to do. So I know the senate and the bigger church still needs to change and evolve, but my congregation is fabulous. (laughing) - That is wonderful. - Never thought I'd say that. Never thought I'd say that. - How does the national church need to evolve? If you were to reimagine it today, how does it need to be reimagined? - I'm a systems and structure person. That's what I teach in the United Way. Next two days, I'm on the road teaching board governance. And so I look at systems and how people are governed all the time and I suspect that it still needs some of that. I really, I'm not close enough, although my best friend is still deeply involved. She was the vice president of the national church. And she's deeply involved, but I'm a realist too about how fast change can come. And I mean, the change has been miraculous that's happened in the national church. But I couldn't even talk in an intelligent way about what needs to change there. I really couldn't. - What is the change that happened that's miraculous? What do you point to that's changed? - In the national church, the growing numbers of women and people of color. I know where it needs to change drastically and it's around inclusion and diversity. And I guess I could speak about that, 'cause it's through the YWCA. It really is my number one issue that I've worked on for years is the elimination of racism. And the church does have a long way to go there. They may care and believe, but they have to make a lot of changes in order to be welcoming and inclusive and they don't know how. - You mean at the national level and individual congregations or senates? - I think all of us. All of us, yeah. We may have the will, 'cause a lot of people have the will, but it's tough to do. Just like society. How do we get rid of racism in the workplace? Yeah, it's tough work. - It is, it is, yeah. In the end, what do you think is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining? - A legacy of hope. Because at a time when it was much tougher for lay women and ordained women in the church, a group of volunteers came together and made a major impact that's still alive. And that gives great hope. Yeah, I think that's the biggest legacy, along with the change that it certainly made for women. - What do you think Re-Imagining helped with? What did it change? - It brought people's attention to how it could be. And here's how I think about that. Because in the World YWCA, we're closely aligned with the United Nations, and whatever the decade, whatever the goals are, we're always working on those goals. And I remember at one point a while ago, quite a while ago, saying why do we even care or push some of these goals because we're just not able to make some of those changes, let alone the United Nations make those changes around the world. And then somebody said, but remember, Doris, this is why we push them, because say for a woman in Bangladesh who sees these goals, she's lived a life of servanthood and obedience. She doesn't know that anything can be different. And when she sees the United Nations' goals that say women should be paid equal, women should be regarded well, this was what should happen for women, it's the first time they ever knew that there was a place in the world that that happened. And so, it's hope. And that's incredibly important. I just went to, last fall, October, a World YWCA Council meeting in Thailand. And it's there that we encounter women from 120 countries that are at all different places, but their stories are just incredible. The child marriage and the human trafficking and all of that, but they see hope when we come together. They have sisters around the world that are gonna work with them, so it's hope. It's written down, it's just amazing. Now I totally buy into those goals, the decade goals that the United Nations puts out. 'Cause if you don't know that something can be better, yeah (laughing). - Yeah, yes, that's great. Well, I'm getting near the end here, but some of the goals of Re-Imagining was to bring inclusive language and feminist theology to the churches. Sounds like your church is doing very well on that. - Very well, very well. - And what is your sense of the ELCA as a whole? - There's pockets, there's a lot of people that are just like we are at ECLC. But there's still a lot of, I mean when you go to other congregations and you say, oh, this is what, this worship is like what it was in 1980, I can't believe it. So there's a huge amount of change yet to be made. Although a lot of us have come a long way. There's still great, you know, and I think about why all of our denominations are shrinking. And I think that not being in tune with the changes along all the avenues. It's like, why would young people go to that church? I would never go back to lots of 'em, lot of Lutheran congregations. I just couldn't do that any more. And so certainly that's the way young, I mean, yeah, that's why my congregation is growing. We're putting on -- - Is it, wow. - a $5.5 million addition. - Oh my goodness! - 'Cause we're busting out of the seams with kids and young people and LGBTQ people and -- - That's so good to hear. - And we have incredible music and theology, feminist theology. So it's working for us. (laughing) - Yes! Oh, that is wonderful. I have one last question, a very specific one. We are working on a Re-Imagining website, and part of it will be kind of archival. We'll put on the digitized versions of the conferences, other things -- - Oh, fabulous. - Yeah, yes. And then some of it we're hoping to use for resources and networking. - Sure. - So I wondered if you had any thoughts, we're just looking for thoughts about what would be helpful to be on that website? If you were to look for it, what would you wanna see? - I'd wanna hear some stories. I'd want, maybe it would be a story about, because some of them I'm sure are very articulate, the ones that are still deeply involved, on what changes need to still take place. Where can they plug in? Can they just look at this website or is there a gathering that they can go to? - Oh, a gathering like a conference? - Right, right. - Plans are in the works for that too, but it's not finalized. 2018 is the 25th anniversary. - Yeah, I saw that article in Minnesota Women's Press. Right, just before you called. - Oh, did you? - And I thought ooh! - Perfect timing, yes. Is that something you would be interested in going to? - Oh, heavens yes. - Okay, good. - Oh, yeah. - And what would you want at a gathering like that? 'Cause we're still in the planning stages. - Just I'd wanna see friends. - Yes. - But, and I wouldn't wanna hear much history. I'd wanna hear about the future. - Yes, yes. - And -- - That's what we're workin' on. - And what can we work on in the future? - Yes. - Yeah, much more so. - That's good to hear. - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah, good. - Because it would be just awful if we'd spent all that time and then it stopped there. - Right. - Yeah. - Exactly. - Needs to keep moving. - Doris, this was wonderful. Is there anything we haven't discussed that you would like to add? - No, because you triggered things that (laughing) I had been thinking about. - Oh, I'm so glad. - Especially that it wasn't as bad for me or the ELCA. I mean, some of the women it was horrid. It did awful things to their lives and, but for me, 'cause I care so deeply about this upcoming election and getting Hillary Clinton elected that I thought (laughing) I should speak about, you know, people's lives are being destroyed in the election, but it's even more hurtful when it's the church. - Yes. - But we aren't any different than society. - Yes. Well, thank you so much. - Oh, you're welcome. - I'm gonna turn this