Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: You have to think positive, you know? Think positively. I often think, I say, now, if we were in the leading position like we think the White people are in lead, what would we do? Do you know? Because nobody wants to be an underdog, you know? But we have had some people, leaders doing work and some bad ones. That's what life is all about. Good and bad. And it's good to be here. Blair Murphy: Do you remember any people from this community who are trying to push for change? Or change about segregation, or about schooling or about the childre? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Yes. Yes. Now, this, you know, I don't know, Billie Todd. She, she was a good person with us. She was a nice person. And she thought like I thought. She was thinking we ought to live and let live. And then I told her, I said, "Why don't they do us like the White people?" She said, "Well, you know, I have one thought about that anyway. If you were in the lead, would you pass it over to us?" I said, "I see your point. We want to be on top and they want to be on top. And the strongest one wins." Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: And we often talked about that, Mrs. Billie Todd, and Norma Simpson, Norma Morrison, Annie Morrison, all those. They talk our language that if we were in the lead, what we would do. I said, I would think some people that's in lead would trample you under their feet and some would, on the other side would trample you, under their feet. You can't let—You can't have the will to let live, to let people live as well as you live. That's what it's all about. I've got to be over you, everybody wants to be the big head. Yes. It's reasonable, because when you look at the Bible, they did some terrible things in the Bible. Blair Murphy: Mm-hmm. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: For instance, when a king wanted to be head, he would have the other one killed. That's right. That's in the people's mind to do, be superior and they don't want to be on equal, because we—in school, we didn't—I would wonder while I was in school why they would send our books after other people used it, you know? Blair Murphy: [indistinct 00:04:32]. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Huh? Blair Murphy: The White children used the books first. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Yes. I didn't know. I said, why couldn't they get a set of new books and let us wear them out. But no, they sent the books—the new books, they kept, and the old books, they give them to us. You know? I didn't understand that but I knew about that. Now, Mr. Storey was our superintendent. Did you know him? Huh? Blair Murphy: No. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: [indistinct 00:06:06]. Did you know it? Essie Dozier: What was his name? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Huh? Essie Dozier: [indistinct 00:06:09]. Yes, ma'am. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: [indistinct 00:06:11]. Essie Dozier: Yes, I did. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Yes, he believed in the Black [indistinct 00:06:18]. [indistinct 00:06:20] Gibson. Do you know him? Blair Murphy: [indistinct 00:06:23]. Yes, ma'am I know him. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: [indistinct 00:06:25]. Yeah. She and I were warriors. Yes, we talked a lot. We were loud. She [indistinct 00:06:50] we talked lots of times we wanted the best for our children. And we talked about it, and [indistinct 00:06:58] said, "What y'all doing? [indistinct 00:07:02]." I wanted [indistinct 00:07:07] to have a cafeteria on the [indistinct 00:07:18]. And he say, "Y'all want us to make tables? Set a table and feed you?" Something like that. Anyway. But he was so good and he [indistinct 00:07:40] cafeteria built on our school. Do you remember? Blair Murphy: Yes, ma'am. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Yes, he was [indistinct 00:07:47] bad man. But he [indistinct 00:07:51] down and built a [indistinct 00:07:53]. Do you know how the school got torn down? Blair Murphy: I don't. I was [indistinct 00:08:02] oil company. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: No. Blair Murphy: Then I don't remember how. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Now, when they said to [indistinct 00:08:18] schools to go together, when they stopped in 1954. What happened? Blair Murphy: The supreme court decision to desegregate the schools. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: That's right. Now, when that happened, we were going along fine. And someone, the mailman said he didn't want his children go to the South Hill school. I said, "Don't let them come here. We will keep this school ourselves." And they had a meeting and one night the Ku Klux Klans came down and the first thing they busted up, the furnace. The furnace in that school. And we had just built that school. And had facilities nice. And they burst it up, that furnace, and they tore all the telephones out there. And walls. And they left the school. Willa Jean Chapman, just ignored her. Willa Jean Chapman, the Fred Chapman wife? Essie Dozier: Yes, ma'am. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: She was looking at a Ku Klux Klan, when they busted up that school. They had the hoods on, you know, they was dressed like they dress. They tore that school up. And we were scared to say anything. On the South Hill. Yes, that's what happened. Did you all hear that? Essie Dozier: No, ma'am. I didn't. Blair Murphy: So the Klan folks set [indistinct 00:10:29]. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Huh? Blair Murphy: [indistinct 00:10:29]? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: That's right. The [indistinct 00:10:33] came back and they said they weren't going to send their children on [indistinct 00:11:20]. They [indistinct 00:11:22] that school. Blair Murphy: Did they do anything else after that decision had been made? [indistinct 00:11:29]. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: My children went to Crestwood, the first one, they went from Crestwood Elementary, my children [indistinct 00:11:55]. Blair Murphy: Is that a Black school? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: That's Black school, yes. And my daughter finished Crestwood. And we were going to Carver anyway. And after the seventh grade, after a year, went to Carver. Anyway, yeah, that's right, to Carver. Anyways, we passed through Portlock, all the schools, to go to Carver, and Crestwood, anyway. That's the closest we had. Well, anyway, when I was going to high school, I had to walk from South Hill to Carver. Blair Murphy: [indistinct 00:13:08]. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Three miles. To walk from Carver. That's [indistinct 00:13:24]. We really—all our followers thought that we could go to Portlock School. And Portlock School, all of them [indistinct 00:13:46]. Blair Murphy: So you walked past White schools? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: That's right. Blair Murphy: [indistinct 00:13:54]. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: That's right. And we walked, I walked three miles to Carver and the White children would ride on the bus, and throwing chicken bones all on us, all everything on us. Blair Murphy: Mm-hmm. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: [indistinct 00:14:17] thought that was funny. But they didn't. That's mischevious children. We didn't hold it against them. Only thing we resented, being called "All you Black niggers." That's what we really resented, being called "Black niggers." But we didn't have no sense, because you know what I said when they called us "Black nigger"? And I said, "You White crackers." (laughs) That was fun to us. But some people thought it was so bad. But I didn't think it was that bad, because sometimes we get against each other, you know, out here, getting old, that's all in life. If my children would have heard me talk, they said [indistinct 00:15:41] some kind of ways that they would like [indistinct 00:15:48]. You know, everybody wants to survive, survival of the fittest. Blair Murphy: Yeah. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Yes. [indistinct 00:16:02] because I just want to [indistinct 00:16:08]. I wish I could tell you something that would stop all children [indistinct 00:16:20], young boys from being in dope and all that stuff. I'm so sorry that that has come up, because last weekend, I'm [indistinct 00:16:37]. 19 years old [indistinct 00:16:54]. My niece's boy was shot, 19 years old. And they ended up being in the paper. All over what, because? And he was just 19. And he was going to college. But somebody [indistinct 00:17:19]. Essie Dozier: What was his name? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Graham. Speaker 1: See you back! How's everybody? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: All right. All right. Essie Dozier: [indistinct 00:17:29]. Blair Murphy: So do you think that they were, when you were growing up [indistinct 00:17:35] get in trouble [indistinct 00:17:38]. Speaker 1: Excuse me. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: All right, thank you now. All right. [indistinct 00:17:47]. Blair Murphy: She said she was from [indistinct 00:17:48]. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Oh, yeah. Yes. Blair Murphy: Do you think there's a difference in how you were raised back then? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Yes. They were strict. We were strict. [indistinct 00:18:03]. They were mindful of doing the things right. The [indistinct 00:18:14] have some in my family. They don't teach the children right. They are not mindful. They are wild, the mothers are wild. And they are not homelike. They want the children to learn by themselves and they don't take no interest. Blair Murphy: Parents took a lot of interest? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Yes. Blair Murphy: [indistinct 00:18:53]. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Yes. Yes. Blair Murphy: Did other people, other adults [indistinct 00:18:59] did they look out for all the children? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Yes. Yes. Now, in [indistinct 00:19:09] anything happened in the community, everybody would tell each person [indistinct 00:19:17] some business [indistinct 00:19:20]. And check on them. But they don't do that now. They don't do that. And the fathers, you know what? The fathers have [indistinct 00:19:39] the homes that the children don't have no fathers in, and have no [indistinct 00:19:48] ways for the children. That's [indistinct 00:19:55]. Nobody is a leader in the home, because the father is supposed to be the breadwinner and the leader of the house. And when they are not there, it's not no [indistinct 00:20:13]. Blair Murphy: Mm-hmm. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: So children feel like they can do anything and treat their mothers any kind of way. And some of the mothers [indistinct 00:20:26] nowhere. But [indistinct 00:20:32]. [indistinct 00:20:35] because that [indistinct 00:20:39] everybody crazy. Now, who goes to Colombia and get that [indistinct 00:20:54] country. Who's bringing? That's [indistinct 00:20:59]. The man that's got enough money to buy it. And he [indistinct 00:21:11] all around the Black folks, and they have not got no [indistinct 00:21:20] not to do nothing. I thought drinking liquor was the worst thing to happen [indistinct 00:21:33]. Blair Murphy: Did some young people get into trouble? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Huh? Blair Murphy: Did some young people get into trouble when you were growing up? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: No, I know [indistinct 00:21:45] some people used to drink [indistinct 00:21:50]. But now, that [indistinct 00:21:52] has got [indistinct 00:21:57]. They keep them in the old country. They are worse than the people who are [indistinct 00:22:19]. They killing each other. They are killing each other. And all the while boys are in jail. Now, what is that called? What is that for? And you know [indistinct 00:22:36] take them out and give them a job, and make them go to work. I said, they need to work, and they didn't want to work. And what's the difference? [indistinct 00:22:53] work when they don't want to work. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: And I went to [indistinct 00:23:03] all the boys hanging out [indistinct 00:23:13] and said they have no jobs. Now, you could [indistinct 00:23:20] the city can make them clean up the city and [indistinct 00:23:28] minimum wage. Blair Murphy: Was there a time when you were growing up where people didn't have jobs? What would they do? Or was there always work? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: [indistinct 00:23:41] always been some work. We had a box factory [indistinct 00:23:46] brown factory [indistinct 00:23:50]. It's always been somewhere for the work. Now, and [indistinct 00:23:59] they didn't have to make nobody work, because everybody wanted to earn something. Now they don't want to earn nothing, because they see [indistinct 00:24:14] easy way out. Selling dope, stealing [indistinct 00:24:22] they make it. People stealing and taking other folks money. I don't know [indistinct 00:24:37]. And I think anybody in authority [indistinct 00:24:44] like the president, he's trying to help. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: He's trying to help. And so many people [indistinct 00:24:53]. Do you know that? I don't know why they against him. And they bring up some of the worst things, talking about [indistinct 00:25:04]. Everybody is human, yes. And is nobody perfect. And why do they talk about the president like they do? Blair Murphy: They didn't say stuff like that when you were younger? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: No. The only one I knew that they said something about after he was [indistinct 00:25:38] dead talking about Kennedy. And that [indistinct 00:25:48]. Yeah. I didn't believe that. [indistinct 00:25:57] looking for publicity. Blair Murphy: Where did you [indistinct 00:26:01] when you were younger? What newspapers? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: [indistinct 00:26:11] dispatch, [indistinct 00:26:15]. They said scandalous things about people. What's his name? That movie star. [indistinct 00:26:40] scandalous things [indistinct 00:26:43]. Who can I say they talked about? [indistinct 00:26:59]. [indistinct 00:27:09] saved my life. Anyway. They said something. But I don't think [indistinct 00:27:22] of degrading the president. I'm talking about because they didn't say anything about anybody. Blair Murphy: So people respected the people more? People like FDR. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Yeah. Yes. And they [indistinct 00:28:18]. [indistinct 00:28:18] is terrible. It's terrible. It's terrible media. Terrible. [indistinct 00:28:21] when they talk about [indistinct 00:28:26] Blair Murphy: Huh? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: The presidents [indistinct 00:28:28]. Yeah. Now she's crazy. But if she [indistinct 00:28:35] and say [indistinct 00:28:39] tried to say she got [indistinct 00:28:41] and everything. That's terrible. Blair Murphy: [indistinct 00:28:46] said that your name, Vannie, was a slave name. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Yeah. Blair Murphy: What did she mean by that? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Mrs. Annie Jackson, she was our schoolteacher. And she said, "I have two people who've got slave names." My name was Wendy, what I thought my name was Wanda. You know, Wanda. And she said I had a slave name, and another girl had a slave name. She said, "Etta." Our teacher. And she said, "I'm going to name you—or change your name." I said, "No, you can't change my name."I said, "My name is Wendy." She said, "It's not going to be Wendy no more, I'm going to change your name to Vannie." And I said, "What you mean?" She said, "Vannie. My name is Annie and I'm going to change your name to Vannie." Blair Murphy: Why did she think your name was a slave name? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: I don't know. And the other girl, her name was Etta Green. And she named her Nina Green. Blair Murphy: So she associated those names with slaves? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Slaves. Yeah. Slaves. She said so, yeah, she did. And she changed my name on the day that I went to school from Wendy to Vannie. And I've been Vannie ever since. But I knew my name was Henrietta. Blair Murphy: Uh-huh. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: But she didn't call me— Blair Murphy: So Henrietta is not your middle name? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Huh? Blair Murphy: Is Henrietta your middle name? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Yeah, that's my name, Henrietta. Blair Murphy: Is your first name? Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Uh-huh (affirmative). Blair Murphy: Oh, okay. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: But I always put it Vannie Rietta, or Henrietta. Blair Murphy: Okay. Henrietta "Vannie" McCoy Crudup: Did he find that birth certificate? Blair Murphy: No, ma'am.