WEBVTT 1 00:00.000 --> 00:31.000 It is June 23rd, 1994. My name is Felix Armfield and I am doing the interviewing. I'm at the home of Miss Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud. We're in the company of Miss Jessie Laurence Mouton. Basically, we're going to sit around and we're going to have a conversation with the two of them as they share their experiences here in New Orleans coming up in Jim Crow. 2 00:31.000 --> 00:47.000 The interesting thing about Mrs. Pajeaud and Mouton is that they have been lifelong friends. They even were schoolmates. I think that you're going to get a chance to hear about that in just a moment. Would you state your full name? 3 00:47.000 --> 01:01.000 Just speak in here? My name is Marjorie Belcina Pajeaud. 4 01:01.000 --> 01:03.000 Would you state your name? 5 01:03.000 --> 01:14.000 My name is Mrs. Jessie Lawrence Mouton. 6 01:14.000 --> 01:22.000 Okay. Miss Pajeaud, would you just sort of tell me how long you've been in New Orleans and if New Orleans has always been home for you? 7 01:22.000 --> 01:36.000 I have been living in New Orleans all of my life. I was born in New Orleans and—tell my age? 8 01:36.000 --> 01:36.000 Mm-hmm. 9 01:36.000 --> 01:42.000 And I was born November the 11th, 1919. 10 01:42.000 --> 01:47.000 Okay. Right here in New Orleans. 11 01:47.000 --> 01:54.000 Right here in New Orleans. My parents also were born here in New Orleans. 12 01:54.000 --> 01:56.000 Okay. Okay. Miss Mouton, what about you? 13 01:56.000 --> 02:04.000 I was born in New Orleans but my parents were both from Pointcoupee Parish in Louisiana. 14 02:04.000 --> 02:05.000 That [indistinct 00:02:04] that you told me about a while ago? P-O— 15 02:05.000 --> 02:07.000 P-O-I-N. 16 02:07.000 --> 02:11.000 I-N-T-C-O. 17 02:11.000 --> 02:13.000 C-O-U. 18 02:13.000 --> 02:14.000 C-O-U. 19 02:14.000 --> 02:15.000 P-E-E. 20 02:15.000 --> 02:15.000 E-E. Pointcoupee. 21 02:15.000 --> 02:18.000 Mm-hmm. 22 02:18.000 --> 02:22.000 Okay. You were born here in New Orleans you said? 23 02:22.000 --> 02:25.000 I was born here in New Orleans. 24 02:25.000 --> 02:27.000 When were you born? 25 02:27.000 --> 02:41.000 June 27th, 1920. My birthday is Monday. 26 02:41.000 --> 02:41.000 We got a birthday coming up. Okay. 27 02:41.000 --> 02:41.000 Do you have one of these on you? 28 02:41.000 --> 02:41.000 No. No. This is picking us up right here. 29 02:41.000 --> 02:44.000 Oh, I see. 30 02:44.000 --> 02:47.000 How long have the two of you been friends? 31 02:47.000 --> 02:57.000 We have been friends since the end of the first grade, and I imagine we were five or six years old at the time. 32 02:57.000 --> 02:59.000 Okay. 33 02:59.000 --> 03:06.000 We were in every grade together in the same room. 34 03:06.000 --> 03:06.000 Really? 35 03:06.000 --> 03:09.000 From first grade all the way through high school. 36 03:09.000 --> 03:09.000 Really? 37 03:09.000 --> 03:15.000 We graduated together in 1936. 38 03:15.000 --> 03:16.000 Graduated high school in 1936? 39 03:16.000 --> 03:18.000 From high school. 1936. 40 03:18.000 --> 03:19.000 Where did you graduate high school? 41 03:19.000 --> 03:24.000 From McDonogh 35. 42 03:24.000 --> 03:24.000 McDonogh 35. I've heard of this McDonogh 35. 43 03:24.000 --> 03:31.000 The only Black high school, public, in the city of New Orleans. 44 03:31.000 --> 03:35.000 Now when you say public, what are you trying to differentiate? 45 03:35.000 --> 03:39.000 There were other high schools but they were not public high schools. 46 03:39.000 --> 03:41.000 Okay. Other Black high schools? 47 03:41.000 --> 03:42.000 Paid by taxpayers. 48 03:42.000 --> 03:46.000 They were Black. One was by Methodists and other religious— 49 03:46.000 --> 03:47.000 Sectors. 50 03:47.000 --> 03:48.000 Yes. 51 03:48.000 --> 03:48.000 Within the city. 52 03:48.000 --> 03:57.000 The other—Both of them were religious. One was Catholic and the others were by the Methodist congregation religion. 53 03:57.000 --> 03:58.000 You all attended the only Black public— 54 03:58.000 --> 04:03.000 The only Black public school in the city of New Orleans. 55 04:03.000 --> 04:07.000 How do you suppose you didn't go to one of those? 56 04:07.000 --> 04:11.000 Well, our parents just sent us to public schools. 57 04:11.000 --> 04:11.000 Okay. 58 04:11.000 --> 04:18.000 And public school is the school system that is funded from the taxpayers monies. 59 04:18.000 --> 04:24.000 Okay but did you both grow up Catholic? 60 04:24.000 --> 04:27.000 Yes. We were Catholic. 61 04:27.000 --> 04:28.000 And you didn't go to none of the public— 62 04:28.000 --> 04:29.000 No. I don't know why. 63 04:29.000 --> 04:29.000 —or Catholic high schools. 64 04:29.000 --> 04:29.000 The Catholic high schools— 65 04:29.000 --> 04:35.000 We did not. 66 04:35.000 --> 04:43.000 I went to the public school, because of my parents—They were unable to send us anyplace else. They didn't have they money. 67 04:43.000 --> 04:50.000 Okay. Okay. Now what end of town—Where were you born here in the city of New Orleans? Where did you grow up? 68 04:50.000 --> 04:56.000 In the Treme, the section of New Orleans that's called the Treme, T-R-E-M-E. 69 04:56.000 --> 04:57.000 Okay. Over in the Treme section. 70 04:57.000 --> 04:57.000 Yes. 71 04:57.000 --> 04:58.000 Now— 72 04:58.000 --> 05:06.000 Our school was McDonogh, O-G-H. 73 05:06.000 --> 05:06.000 O-G-H. 74 05:06.000 --> 05:07.000 Adapted—adapted— 75 05:07.000 --> 05:10.000 D-O-N. 76 05:10.000 --> 05:12.000 O-G-H. 77 05:12.000 --> 05:15.000 Oh. Okay. I'm glad you corrected that spelling. 78 05:15.000 --> 05:16.000 McDonogh. 79 05:16.000 --> 05:20.000 Jessie, since you're not hooked up, would you mind go stirring my red beans for me, please. (all laugh) 80 05:20.000 --> 05:27.000 You see, this is where we—she knows I don't like the food hot— 81 05:27.000 --> 05:27.000 This is where we fuss. 82 05:27.000 --> 05:27.000 Yeah. 83 05:27.000 --> 05:27.000 This is where we fuss. (all laughing) 84 05:27.000 --> 05:27.000 No, this is—I'm sorry, [indistinct 00:05:30] get me to cook. (all laughing) 85 05:27.000 --> 05:27.000 Mrs. Pajeaud. 86 05:27.000 --> 05:36.000 Pajeaud. 87 05:36.000 --> 05:44.000 Pajeaud. Where did you grow up here in the city of New Orleans? 88 05:44.000 --> 05:46.000 In the same area as she did. 89 05:46.000 --> 05:48.000 In the Treme? 90 05:48.000 --> 05:48.000 In the Treme. 91 05:48.000 --> 05:48.000 Treme? 92 05:48.000 --> 05:51.000 You know where the Lafitte project is located? 93 05:51.000 --> 05:52.000 What project is that? 94 05:52.000 --> 05:52.000 Lafitte. 95 05:52.000 --> 05:52.000 Lafitte. Spell Lafitte. 96 05:52.000 --> 05:58.000 You want me to pile that high under the pot? 97 05:58.000 --> 06:02.000 Yeah. That's okay. L-A-F-I-T-T-E. 98 06:02.000 --> 06:05.000 T-T-E. Lafitte. Okay. 99 06:05.000 --> 06:18.000 It's the Lafitte project. There were houses there where the project is now and that's where I was born and lived. 100 06:18.000 --> 06:20.000 Okay. Okay. How many brothers and sisters did you have? 101 06:20.000 --> 06:21.000 None. 102 06:21.000 --> 06:21.000 None? You were an only child? 103 06:21.000 --> 06:21.000 Only child. 104 06:21.000 --> 06:21.000 [indistinct 00:06:24]? 105 06:21.000 --> 06:25.000 Mm-hmm. 106 06:25.000 --> 06:28.000 What kinds of things did your parents do for a living? 107 06:28.000 --> 06:31.000 My mother was a homemaker and my father was a racehorse man. (laughs) 108 06:31.000 --> 06:42.000 A racehorse man? That's interesting. That is so interesting. Your father was a racehorse man. 109 06:42.000 --> 06:46.000 Yes. Yeah. He fooled with the horses. 110 06:46.000 --> 06:47.000 Really? 111 06:47.000 --> 06:47.000 Yeah. 112 06:47.000 --> 06:48.000 He obviously made a living from it. 113 06:48.000 --> 06:55.000 Yeah. Yeah. He did very well. He did very well. He did very, very well. 114 06:55.000 --> 07:01.000 We aren't picky and choosy. My father was a mattress maker. He worked in a factory for many years. 115 07:01.000 --> 07:01.000 Really? 116 07:01.000 --> 07:03.000 In fact all these Black— 117 07:03.000 --> 07:06.000 There was a mattress industry here in New Orleans? 118 07:06.000 --> 07:11.000 Yes. Southern Mattress Company. It was at one time the only, and then there was another one that— 119 07:11.000 --> 07:13.000 There was a Black one, wasn't there? 120 07:13.000 --> 07:15.000 No. Mr. Reed was the Black one. 121 07:15.000 --> 07:17.000 Yeah. Mr. Reed. 122 07:17.000 --> 07:19.000 Mr. Reed worked with my father at one time but then he went into his own business. 123 07:19.000 --> 07:22.000 His own business. 124 07:22.000 --> 07:36.000 He wanted my father to go but his business wasn't doing so hot, and Father's contentions was that he had five children to feed. He wouldn't take the chances and so he stayed. My brother also worked at Southern Mattress Company. My father worked there for 40 years. 125 07:36.000 --> 07:36.000 What did your— 126 07:36.000 --> 07:41.000 —for 40 years. 127 07:41.000 --> 07:42.000 What did your mother do? 128 07:42.000 --> 07:45.000 My mother was a house— 129 07:45.000 --> 07:45.000 Was a homemaker? 130 07:45.000 --> 07:47.000 A homemaker. A housekeeper, if you want to call her that. 131 07:47.000 --> 07:51.000 Housewife? 132 07:51.000 --> 07:54.000 Yes. She worked one day a week out. You know, as a maid. 133 07:54.000 --> 07:54.000 She did domestic work outside? 134 07:54.000 --> 07:54.000 Outside. 135 07:54.000 --> 07:55.000 Now where did she go to do that work one day a week? 136 07:55.000 --> 08:07.000 Back of Dumaine Street for some of our richest people. Dumaine and that's by St. John. 137 08:07.000 --> 08:14.000 Now was this a White neighborhood, Dumaine? (phone rings) 138 08:14.000 --> 08:28.000 Positively. Yes. All he could give us was a decent place to stay, and something to eat. That was very important. 139 08:28.000 --> 08:29.000 Now Mrs. Mouton, you're talking about your father? 140 08:29.000 --> 08:32.000 My father. 141 08:32.000 --> 08:32.000 Okay. Okay. 142 08:32.000 --> 08:37.000 He paid high rent through all calibers. 143 08:37.000 --> 08:37.000 Mm-hmm. 144 08:37.000 --> 08:40.000 So that we wouldn't be sleeping all in one room. 145 08:40.000 --> 08:40.000 Really? 146 08:40.000 --> 08:40.000 That's right. 147 08:40.000 --> 08:40.000 This was over in the Treme area? 148 08:40.000 --> 08:40.000 That's right. 149 08:40.000 --> 08:46.000 Really? 150 08:46.000 --> 08:53.000 We lived right in front of the school that we attended. 151 08:53.000 --> 08:53.000 McDonogh? 152 08:53.000 --> 08:55.000 No, no. As children, we went to Craig School, Joseph A. Craig School. 153 08:55.000 --> 09:02.000 Tell me what. 154 09:02.000 --> 09:04.000 Okay. Okay. 155 09:04.000 --> 09:06.000 Craig was on St. Philip, it still is. 156 09:06.000 --> 09:10.000 Okay. Okay. 157 09:10.000 --> 09:17.000 That school was built before we started school. 158 09:17.000 --> 09:20.000 That school has been around almost a hundred years. 159 09:20.000 --> 09:29.000 '20 something, something like that. We had first grade in another school, and then the next year we went to Craig School. It was a brand new school. 160 09:29.000 --> 09:33.000 Really? Then you went to first grade. Was it like a one room school or something? 161 09:33.000 --> 09:33.000 Did you tell him that? Did you tell him that? So he's—he means he's making those lies up on you? Yeah— 162 09:33.000 --> 09:38.000 No. Indeed, it's a whole block school. A half of a square. 163 09:38.000 --> 09:42.000 No, not Craig, but the school that you went to before you went to Craig. 164 09:42.000 --> 09:45.000 No, Craig is the only elementary school that I entered. 165 09:45.000 --> 09:45.000 Ah, okay. Okay. 166 09:45.000 --> 09:56.000 We entered Craig and it was the first—Really one of the first newer schools, brand new schools that Blacks had here. If we had any other, I don't know of it. 167 09:56.000 --> 09:56.000 Would you have a man—and not to be emotional about it but, woman! I mean— 168 09:56.000 --> 10:30.000 Craig was a brand new school when we went, because I remembered how Mama used to say, "Don't put your hands on the wall and dirty the wall, because that's a brand new school." You know? Keep it clean. This was just a part of that, because I don't ever remember being real dirty. You just have to know families to know why things go on as they do in the house. I was brought up in that kind of family. My mother washed every day. 169 10:30.000 --> 10:32.000 Really? 170 10:32.000 --> 10:46.000 Really, so that we could go and hang our clothes on the line in the yard, so that we could go to school clean every day. The teachers would comment on the fact that we were always nice and clean. 171 10:46.000 --> 10:47.000 Really? 172 10:47.000 --> 11:05.000 This has been something that we hand down, because I did the same thing with my two children. Both of them went to elementary public schools but when they began to get to high school, they both went to Catholic. 173 11:05.000 --> 11:06.000 Okay. 174 11:06.000 --> 11:49.000 You see, I was more in a position to pay tuition than my parents were, because the first time I went to college, right after high school, I did the first year but the next year—It was a struggle that first year. I had to stop for financial reasons. See, she taught longer than I did, because she went on through college, but I was out of college 20 years before I went back. I did better than a lot of the youngsters and I had two small children, two and four years old, and a husband giving me a hard road to travel. 175 11:49.000 --> 11:49.000 Really? 176 11:49.000 --> 11:49.000 That's right. 177 11:49.000 --> 11:50.000 And you persevered. 178 11:50.000 --> 12:25.000 I persevered. I was determined, I had to be—I had done housework, domestic, when I first came out of school. I knew that this wasn't what I wanted to do all my life. I really didn't like to be. It just happened that the people I worked for were so very kind to me. You know, in many ways. I worked there four years and the war broke out. Four years and the war broke out. 179 12:25.000 --> 12:29.000 This was what war? 180 12:29.000 --> 12:35.000 World War Two. The jobs were opening up everywhere. And when I applied— 181 12:35.000 --> 12:36.000 With the war opening up? 182 12:36.000 --> 13:02.000 Yeah. The war. When I applied for a job in the war industry, at that time, they were giving most of the jobs to the White girls in the daytime, but I passed examination and everything that they gave but they wanted me to work from 12 o'clock at night until early morning and my father could not see that, no more than he could see my mother going to work and leaving five children in the house. 183 13:02.000 --> 13:04.000 Okay. Okay. 184 13:04.000 --> 13:53.000 He said to me, I wasn't outdoors and I wasn't hungry, so I didn't work, I didn't take that job. I took another job working in a sewing factory and I worked there, all in all, for about 10 years. This is when I made up my mind that this wasn't what I wanted to do either. That was hard, strenuous—That was a very nerve-wracking job because you just work, work, work. The salary wasn't what I had thought it should be. I needed a job. As one woman said, "Why are you working here? You've been to college", "Because I need a job." The children now don't want a job and the man didn't pay but 15 cents an hour. 185 13:53.000 --> 14:35.000 That was a very low-paying job. Like I said, I guess you have to know what you want to do with your life. Some of them don't know. My father used to use an expression about you must want something in life, even if it's just a new pair of shoes, and I could never—I used to say, "Why do you always tell us that?" You have to want something bad enough to work for it. That's all it meant but I didn't understand that but I understood it afterwards, later. 186 14:35.000 --> 14:35.000 Yeah. 187 14:35.000 --> 15:03.000 Like I said, we were poor but we had loving parents, and I say my children—so my father, but my mother had died before my children, because I was expecting my son when my mother died. My children have experienced the love of family life. You know? With the rest of my sisters at the time. I lost the last sister three years ago. I'm the only living one now. 188 15:03.000 --> 15:03.000 Okay. 189 15:03.000 --> 15:09.000 Of my mother's children. 190 15:09.000 --> 15:15.000 Now what was life like there in the home amongst you and your brothers and sisters? 191 15:15.000 --> 15:31.000 Loving, because you didn't get mad and say, "I am not saying anything to you." You had to get the Bible. Anything you did, that's why I say we got a lying—you told a lie, you had to get the Bible and say tell the truth and shame the devel. 192 15:31.000 --> 15:35.000 I'm sorry, that was my daughter. Her daughter had an accident. It's not serious, though. 193 15:35.000 --> 15:37.000 Who? 194 15:37.000 --> 15:48.000 Dominique. She slid into a bump up on the [indistinct 00:15:37]. She slid into a lady's car but Daphne said the damage is not even—In other words— 195 15:48.000 --> 15:48.000 Miss— 196 15:48.000 --> 15:54.000 Pajeaud. 197 15:54.000 --> 16:11.000 Pajeaud. Miss Pajeaud is now joining us back in our conversation. We've just been speaking with Miss Mouton and she was telling me a little bit about what she was doing and the kinds of things that her parents did. What do you recall your parents doing? Do you have any memories of your father? 198 16:11.000 --> 16:12.000 Oh, yes. 199 16:12.000 --> 16:13.000 Horse race man? 200 16:13.000 --> 16:23.000 Oh, yeah, because my father and mother were married 54 years when my father died. 201 16:23.000 --> 16:24.000 Long time to be with someone. 202 16:24.000 --> 16:35.000 Yes. A really long time. I was very close to my father. In fact, my father was much more lenient with me than my mother. When my mother told me no about something, I'd go ask my father. 203 16:35.000 --> 16:36.000 Used to play for kicks— 204 16:36.000 --> 16:38.000 Yeah. 205 16:38.000 --> 16:39.000 With an only child and [indistinct 00:16:39]. 206 16:39.000 --> 16:41.000 Yeah. Right. Right. Right. 207 16:41.000 --> 16:45.000 Really? 208 16:45.000 --> 17:16.000 Perhaps you would like to know something about the economics and how they lived, because I really thought that was a good way of doing things. My father would put the money on the dresser for my mother to run the house with, and then he would give her money for herself. Like an allowance or something. 209 17:16.000 --> 18:10.000 If she wanted something for the house like a new stove, or something like that, he would give her the money to buy it and whatnot. To me, that was a good way, because the woman didn't have to worry like I did. In my marriage, I took care of everything. My husband wouldn't know whether I got a new stove or a new anything. (laughs) He'd give all the money and I had to—If I spent all the money in one day, that was it. He didn't care what you had. You know? Whatnot or whatever you want. I kind of liked the way my father did things. Then he would give me money for myself, like 25 cents, which was a good deal during that time and whatnot. 210 18:10.000 --> 18:12.000 She got a lot of money when she was coming up, being an only child. 211 18:12.000 --> 18:12.000 Yeah. An only child. 212 18:12.000 --> 18:50.000 I used to come in on a Saturday and put the money on the table and then with all us hanging around the table, and I remember that very well and my mama is sitting there and they would put so much out for the rent, because they paid rent every week to this man, who was our landlord. Then you put money on the side for the groceries, for the rest of the week, and then you put—Then he had his car fare to get to work, and he was a heavy smoker, so he had to have some money to buy his cigarettes. And I think cigarettes must have been 15 cents a pack at the time. I used to put a lot of it before the— 213 18:50.000 --> 18:51.000 Tell me about—When was this? 214 18:51.000 --> 18:51.000 In the 40s— 215 18:51.000 --> 18:53.000 That was in the '30s. 216 18:53.000 --> 18:56.000 That was in the '30s. 217 18:56.000 --> 18:58.000 We're talking about actually end of Depression. 218 18:58.000 --> 18:59.000 Yes. Mm-hmm. 219 18:59.000 --> 19:03.000 In the '20s also, because I was born in 1919. If you remember, she was born in 1920. 220 19:03.000 --> 19:08.000 Okay. You're talking about cigarettes were about 15— 221 19:08.000 --> 19:09.000 Yeah. 20— 222 19:09.000 --> 19:25.000 Yeah. I remember him—I could go to the grocery and get it and I used to like to throw things up on the house top, then he'd have to get a ladder or a stick or something and get the cigarettes, because he didn't have another 15 cents to buy another pack. Money just was hard to come by. 223 19:25.000 --> 19:26.000 Mmm. So you didn't want to use that for cigarettes— 224 19:26.000 --> 19:36.000 —but all we got was a nickel. You know? When you have five children, everybody got a nickel. 225 19:36.000 --> 19:37.000 Okay. That one quarter had to go five ways. 226 19:37.000 --> 19:39.000 Yeah. 227 19:39.000 --> 19:46.000 I imagine you must have bought an awful lot with that one nickel. 228 19:46.000 --> 20:04.000 You could buy good candy for a penny. You could go buy—You could get two and three cookies for a penny. You know? That meant that—Then my mother was a person who made something all the time for us. It wasn't a matter of every time—We'd buy Snowballs and Snowballs wasn't but a penny, two pennies if you wanted two colors. 229 20:04.000 --> 20:30.000 Being an only child, I was very protected in all that, especially by my mother. I couldn't do this. I had a tricycle and I couldn't ride. I had a swing in the yard. The bottom in the two swings, and I couldn't do that, I couldn't skate. So many things I couldn't do. That's why I had all the children that I had. I didn't want one child, I said that. 230 20:30.000 --> 20:33.000 Really? Just did not want an only child? 231 20:33.000 --> 20:37.000 Nope. I didn't want only one child. No. So I had about— 232 20:37.000 --> 20:38.000 You're saying, you got lonely as an only child? 233 20:38.000 --> 20:40.000 No. I wasn't lonely. I wasn't lonely. 234 20:40.000 --> 20:43.000 But you certainly you would have liked to have had some other siblings? 235 20:43.000 --> 21:13.000 Not necessarily, because, you see, in the south, we were a very close family. The cousins and whatnot. You see, there's this aunt, she lived with us. She and her husband separated when her son was 10 months old, and she came to live with us. Her son and her daughter really grew up like my sister and brother and whatnot and we're very close now, her daughter. 236 21:13.000 --> 21:16.000 You had what was clearly what was called the extended Black family? 237 21:16.000 --> 21:25.000 Yes, we did. We were definitely an extended Black family. I had grandmothers— 238 21:25.000 --> 21:45.000 —we are—He tells people that I'm his sister and they don't refer to us as cousins. Except the people who really know us. You know? Because we were raised and was born in the same house, and then when we moved on St. Philip Street, they moved in the apartments in the back. 239 21:45.000 --> 21:50.000 That's how she was. You see? She's the one, her mother and— 240 21:50.000 --> 21:51.000 Okay. Okay. 241 21:51.000 --> 22:07.000 She and her brother lived with us, so we were very, very close. Then my father's mother lived in the 7th Ward and I was always there with them, with my aunts and with my— 242 22:07.000 --> 22:10.000 Where is the 7th Ward? I've heard people talk about the 7th Ward. What is the 7th Ward? What should that mean to me? 243 22:10.000 --> 22:13.000 The 7th Ward started at— 244 22:13.000 --> 22:15.000 That's where the Creoles lived. 245 22:15.000 --> 22:15.000 That's where the Creoles lived? 246 22:15.000 --> 22:16.000 Mm-hmm. 247 22:16.000 --> 22:20.000 Okay. Now did you ever live in the 7th Ward? 248 22:20.000 --> 22:30.000 Not until I was a teenager. The project that she was telling you, the Lafitte project, we had to move and so we moved downtown. 249 22:30.000 --> 22:30.000 Okay. Okay. 250 22:30.000 --> 22:34.000 That's the only thing that they— 251 22:34.000 --> 22:35.000 You didn't move downtown, Ms. Mouton? 252 22:35.000 --> 22:36.000 Yeah. 253 22:36.000 --> 22:39.000 I never lived in the 7th Ward. 254 22:39.000 --> 22:39.000 You never lived in the 7th Ward? 255 22:39.000 --> 22:39.000 Yeah— 256 22:39.000 --> 22:41.000 —but you had your family? 257 22:41.000 --> 22:55.000 Yeah, but that's a different 7th Ward. Yeah. It's different. It's different. It's different from downtown. It was never the 7th Ward like Blacks think of it. 258 22:55.000 --> 22:56.000 Okay. Okay. 259 22:56.000 --> 22:56.000 That was downtown. 260 22:56.000 --> 23:06.000 Okay. Okay. Now when you talk about that 7th Ward from your childhood, that was clearly where the Creoles lived? 261 23:06.000 --> 23:09.000 Yes, but, as I said, I did not live in the 7th Ward. 262 23:09.000 --> 23:12.000 But you had family in the 7th Ward? 263 23:12.000 --> 23:14.000 I had family who lived in the 7th Ward too. 264 23:14.000 --> 23:16.000 I did not. 265 23:16.000 --> 23:48.000 Yeah. They were light skin people, it was straight hair, and whatnot. As I said, it isn't only fair skin and straight hair. Creole is a form of life, a form of culture, because I have a friend who is very, very dark and I'm always teasing, we've been friends for years and years, I say, "Girl, you sound just like one of them ol' Creoles." I tell her. And act like it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't just the fair skin and the straight hair. 266 23:48.000 --> 23:52.000 Now would it be fair for someone to say Ms Pajeaud was Creole? 267 23:52.000 --> 23:53.000 Well— 268 23:53.000 --> 23:55.000 I'm Creole. 269 23:55.000 --> 23:59.000 Everybody who meets—who meets me— 270 23:59.000 --> 24:02.000 See this lady around here, she's so Creole, she still got an accent you can hear. 271 24:02.000 --> 24:02.000 Antoinette Pierre— 272 24:02.000 --> 24:02.000 Okay. She's a dark skinned lady? 273 24:02.000 --> 24:07.000 And Naomi too— 274 24:07.000 --> 24:07.000 Yeah. She's from the Treme too— 275 24:07.000 --> 24:13.000 Yeah. And my friend Naomi is dark skin too. In other words, she's [indistinct 00:24:14]. 276 24:13.000 --> 24:16.000 Are you in fact Creole? 277 24:16.000 --> 24:45.000 I don't look upon myself as Creole. Just because I'm fair with as they say "good hair," they used to say and whatnot. I don't look—Everybody who sees me, of course, they have stopped doing that, they will say right away, "You from the 7th Ward." I was not from the 7th Ward. It does me very much good to tell them I was born in the Treme, and not in the 7th Ward. 278 24:45.000 --> 24:46.000 Okay, the Treme is—Clearly, that was the Black neighborhood? 279 24:46.000 --> 24:48.000 Yes. It was a Black neighborhood. It was a Black neighborhood. 280 24:48.000 --> 24:55.000 Black neighborhood. Black area, you may as well say. 281 24:55.000 --> 24:56.000 Okay. It was an area. 282 24:56.000 --> 24:58.000 Yeah. It's a whole area. 283 24:58.000 --> 25:22.000 Let me tell you this, of course, we didn't know when we were coming up—In fact, we didn't know until the '60s, what existed beyond segregation, because that's all we knew. We came up with segregation and that's all we knew. According to us, we had a very good life. We had a full life. We played— 284 25:22.000 --> 25:25.000 What made that life—Go ahead. 285 25:25.000 --> 25:58.000 We played games. We came from the school. We'd play hop scotch, Jack's, rope. We'd play with paper dolls. We had dolls and whatnot. We would—Well, we had friends around the block and we would sit on the steps at night and tell ghost stories and whatnot. Our parents and our aunts and cousins were all involved with us, so we had a good life. 286 25:58.000 --> 25:59.000 Yeah. 287 25:59.000 --> 26:00.000 As far as we knew. 288 26:00.000 --> 26:00.000 Yeah. 289 26:00.000 --> 26:03.000 Because we didn't know anything about all of the this. 290 26:03.000 --> 26:06.000 You didn't know anything outside your community. 291 26:06.000 --> 26:11.000 No. We didn't know. Now we went to Chicago every summer. 292 26:11.000 --> 26:12.000 A family outing? 293 26:12.000 --> 26:18.000 Well, my mother and my aunt and her friends, and myself went to Chicago. 294 26:18.000 --> 26:19.000 Your father [indistinct 00:26:19]. 295 26:19.000 --> 26:32.000 Every year. Oh no. My father wouldn't come but he would send those checks. My mother would be looking for the mail. 296 26:32.000 --> 26:34.000 We went to the country, which was rural Pointcoupee Parish for my mother's people and by my daddy's people. 297 26:34.000 --> 26:36.000 And you would go out to the country? 298 26:36.000 --> 26:37.000 I would go out every summer. 299 26:37.000 --> 26:38.000 Leave the city and go to the country. 300 26:38.000 --> 26:39.000 Jessie, go see about my beans, please. (laughs) 301 26:39.000 --> 26:42.000 Now, this is the last time. 302 26:42.000 --> 26:45.000 She can go. She can go. You finish talking. 303 26:45.000 --> 26:47.000 I smell them. 304 26:47.000 --> 26:57.000 It smells good. I know that. Well, tell me a little bit about your parents. You said that they say that you are Creole. 305 26:57.000 --> 26:58.000 Yes. 306 26:58.000 --> 27:00.000 What makes you Creole? 307 27:00.000 --> 27:07.000 Because my father's people were of the light skin— 308 27:07.000 --> 27:07.000 This is Mouton who is speaking? Okay. 309 27:07.000 --> 27:24.000 Because they were of the lighter people but my mother's people were also considered Creoles because my mother's father was very fair and all of his sisters were. My daddy's mother was very fair but she had sisters and brothers far darker than you. 310 27:24.000 --> 27:25.000 Really? 311 27:25.000 --> 27:38.000 They were so Creole. Because they all talked that language. Now my grandmother knew how to talk French, because she's from Haiti, in that area, French Haiti. 312 27:38.000 --> 27:41.000 Okay. 313 27:41.000 --> 28:02.000 My father's mother was born when the slaves were freed. After the slaves were freed, her mother must have married a fellow and had these other five children after that. 314 28:02.000 --> 28:44.000 They were like—You wouldn't believe that they were not lighter people in the 7th Ward. They were prejudiced against dark, because my grandmother's sisters and brothers were very dark. She was very light. They loved—and they'd come here every day [indistinct 00:28:20] the bus just to get a cup of coffee on their way to work. I always knew that we would go by my daddy's and uncle on a Sunday and then we'd go by my mother's aunt and uncle. My father's uncle married my mother's aunt, so that made it both— 315 28:44.000 --> 28:44.000 You burned it? I asked if you wanted— 316 28:44.000 --> 28:48.000 The coffee was a hospitable thing? 317 28:48.000 --> 29:07.000 A hospitable thing and if the person like my mother and her sisters and all of them knew how to make biscuits, and what we call Johnny cake, that was sure good, sat down and you talked about this or that. That was a family, and a friendship thing. 318 29:07.000 --> 29:19.000 Yeah. You should have said something. I had it warming for you. 319 29:19.000 --> 29:19.000 That's fine. That's wonderful. I'd love to have a cup. 320 29:19.000 --> 29:19.000 I have some, because I make it in— 321 29:19.000 --> 29:19.000 You drink slow? 322 29:19.000 --> 29:25.000 [indistinct 00:29:20]. 323 29:25.000 --> 29:27.000 I tend to drink it all day long. 324 29:27.000 --> 29:29.000 I have it in the coffee maker, so there's some in the coffee maker. 325 29:29.000 --> 29:32.000 Okay. Good. Good. 326 29:32.000 --> 29:50.000 I made it this morning. We used to go to Chicago. There was a railroad company here, TNP. I think that had excursions for $9—This picture of me when I was 11 years old, that's where it was taken, in Chicago. 327 29:50.000 --> 29:52.000 Okay. Is that the one that I'm going to take with me? 328 29:52.000 --> 29:54.000 Yeah. My mother—You want to take it with you? 329 29:54.000 --> 29:55.000 No. Well, I'm going to get a copy of it. 330 29:55.000 --> 29:58.000 A copy of it— 331 29:58.000 --> 30:00.000 I'm just going to get a copy. 332 30:00.000 --> 30:02.000 You see how? That was taken in Chicago. You see the buildings? 333 30:02.000 --> 30:06.000 Yeah. Look at that. Look at that. We want a copy of that. 334 30:06.000 --> 30:09.000 My aunt had friends. I was 11 years old then. 335 30:09.000 --> 30:10.000 11 years old. 336 30:10.000 --> 30:13.000 Every summer, we went to Chicago. 337 30:13.000 --> 30:15.000 Now whose car is that you're on? 338 30:15.000 --> 30:15.000 That was— 339 30:15.000 --> 30:18.000 The family or someone, a friend— 340 30:18.000 --> 30:21.000 We didn't have a car. My father never learned to drive. I don't know why. 341 30:21.000 --> 30:26.000 He was busy driving horses. (all laugh) 342 30:26.000 --> 30:30.000 He was busy going to the racetrack, betting on those horses (laughs) he was busy doing that! 343 30:30.000 --> 30:37.000 And mine was so busy working, he used to do mattresses on a Sunday in the yard, and we had to help pick the moss to make extra money, so that he could have that for us. 344 30:37.000 --> 30:40.000 Really? He would bring his work home with him? 345 30:40.000 --> 30:41.000 Yes. 346 30:41.000 --> 30:43.000 Was your father a workaholic? 347 30:43.000 --> 31:17.000 No, but I guess he knew that this was how it got to be when you have children, because he didn't believe in you being hungry. My mother used to say he didn't come in the house unless he's—when we would get—say, "Where are the children? Did the children eat?" People didn't have telephones, so if he had to work overtime, he had to know that evening before, so when he worked overtime, mama didn't have to wait to feed us until he came home, because eating at our house has always been that everybody sat down and ate. You know, like, everybody— 348 31:17.000 --> 31:19.000 It was a family affair? 349 31:19.000 --> 31:25.000 It was a family affair. Everybody sat to the table, ate, and then you told papa what you did in school. 350 31:25.000 --> 31:43.000 What do you recall—What do either of you recall about the Depression years? What stands out in your mind most about the Depression decade? Did you feel the Depression? Did it bother you? Did it impact on your family lives? Your social lives? 351 31:43.000 --> 31:46.000 We just kept on living after we finished school and getting a job. That's the thing. 352 31:46.000 --> 31:49.000 Because you're finishing high school in 1936? 353 31:49.000 --> 32:03.000 And couldn't get a job that some of these White girls who didn't have the education I had would get jobs far better than—Like salesgirls and things like that. They didn't give us jobs like that. Domestic— 354 32:03.000 --> 32:06.000 You had just as much education as they did or sometimes more. 355 32:06.000 --> 32:07.000 That's right. 356 32:07.000 --> 32:10.000 Really? You came out of high school right at the height of the Depression. 357 32:10.000 --> 32:10.000 I think so. 358 32:10.000 --> 32:10.000 Yeah. [indistinct 00:32:11]. 359 32:10.000 --> 32:11.000 No, '36. 360 32:11.000 --> 32:11.000 Yeah. 1936. The Depression was still going on. 361 32:11.000 --> 32:31.000 But, you see, quite as this kept—the Black people were not affected too much about any of this, because we were not high rollers. We were not high livers. It didn't affect us too much. 362 32:31.000 --> 32:31.000 Basically [indistinct 00:32:32]. 363 32:31.000 --> 32:36.000 Even after World War Two, or during World War Two, when they had the rationing—You wouldn't know about it. 364 32:36.000 --> 32:36.000 No I don't remember but I've heard— 365 32:36.000 --> 32:50.000 The rationing of shoes and the ration of meat, the ration cards. I was very young at the time too but I realized, I said, "This is not affecting us." 366 32:50.000 --> 32:51.000 It didn't affect us either. 367 32:51.000 --> 32:52.000 No. 368 32:52.000 --> 32:55.000 Because we were still living— 369 32:55.000 --> 32:59.000 We were not accustomed to having gobs and gobs of shoes and all like that, and all of this— 370 32:59.000 --> 33:02.000 You weren't accustomed to living that high anyway. 371 33:02.000 --> 33:09.000 No, we weren't. We didn't have—and the Black people who were living— Sure. The way we had been. It affected the rich White people. 372 33:09.000 --> 33:10.000 Okay. Okay. 373 33:10.000 --> 33:11.000 More than anything. 374 33:11.000 --> 33:15.000 The middle class Whites. You see? 375 33:15.000 --> 33:17.000 They started killing themselves during the Depression. They were killing themselves because they couldn't— 376 33:17.000 --> 33:18.000 Because they couldn't take it. 377 33:18.000 --> 33:19.000 Now who is they? White men? 378 33:19.000 --> 33:20.000 The White people. 379 33:20.000 --> 33:23.000 They were killing themselves? 380 33:23.000 --> 33:27.000 They jumped out of windows. When the stock market crashed in '29, they— 381 33:27.000 --> 33:29.000 They killed themselves. 382 33:29.000 --> 33:36.000 Because they couldn't take—They couldn't live without money and big cars and whatnot. 383 33:36.000 --> 33:41.000 You're saying for Black people, they had been accustomed to living without all along. 384 33:41.000 --> 33:42.000 —accustomed to living without. Yeah. 385 33:42.000 --> 33:45.000 Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. 386 33:45.000 --> 33:52.000 We lived decent. You know? And whatnot. But we didn't have all of the luxuries we have now when we were coming up. 387 33:52.000 --> 33:56.000 We have more now than what my parents had ever had. 388 33:56.000 --> 33:58.000 Most of us—all of us— 389 33:58.000 --> 34:01.000 Basically, your parents were concerned with making ends meet? 390 34:01.000 --> 34:11.000 Yeah. That was about all they could do at that time would be to make ends meet. I'm telling you now, you put that little money on the table and everybody would come— 391 34:11.000 --> 34:20.000 But they enjoyed their life and they were satisfied because I'll never forget during the civil rights time—You can relate to that, can't you? 392 34:20.000 --> 34:23.000 Well, I do know about the civil rights movement. 393 34:23.000 --> 34:25.000 You know about it. How old are you about? 394 34:25.000 --> 34:28.000 No, I was born in 1962, so I was too young to have been a participant. 395 34:28.000 --> 34:34.000 That was along in the '60s, the '50s and the '60s. 396 34:34.000 --> 34:39.000 Yeah. The movement took place during the '60s and I was a little too young to realize what was going on around me. 397 34:39.000 --> 34:40.000 You're in your thirties. 398 34:40.000 --> 34:40.000 Yeah. I'm 31. 399 34:40.000 --> 34:48.000 Yeah. He's too young. So was my daughter, and my son was young. [indistinct 00:34:47] had to be young. 400 34:48.000 --> 34:49.000 Basically, my parents— 401 34:49.000 --> 34:53.000