John Rutledge: —a truck leaving now this evening, about 2:00. Out on the sugar cane plantation. And the man had everybody come out there. Well, that sounded good. Y'all would be out there by 2:00 to get that truck. Sure enough, that Sunday evening. We went up there. And all could get on that truck went across. Went on across that Huey P. Long bridge across that Mississippi River. Went 60 miles out on that sugar cane desert. Got out there, as far as you could see was nothing but sugar cane, sugar cane, sugar cane, sugar cane. 

John Rutledge: Had a boating house out right in the middle of the sugar cane field. Once we got there, had a whole lot of guys that was already there. And the man—both men, he come up there riding a big red horse. And he told us, said, " Well, I want everybody's attention. I got a speech I might make to y'all." 

John Rutledge: He laid down the plans what he said that "I want all that sugar cane out there, I want it cut. I know y'all come out here. Y'all didn't come out here to play. I ain't have no playing. If you come out to work, you got to work." That's what he said. 

John Rutledge: That night, they swing them bridges. Couldn't get away from that night. They had them darn alligators and things, in them bayous and things. If you swim in it, they did eat you up. You had to stay there. 

Paul Ortiz: So, who would—so somebody would take out the bridges? 

John Rutledge: They'd swing them. 

Paul Ortiz: Oh. 

John Rutledge: You know, where you couldn't get cross. 

Paul Ortiz: Right. So they were— 

John Rutledge: Did like they do in [indistinct 00:01:51], didn't have no ships coming up through them. The river. You know, they're swinging them bridges back so the ship can come up. That what they did that night. Bring them up or something. But you couldn't cross. Couldn't walk away from there and come back—get away from there. They did that at night. So you had to stay there. Now, we stayed there until—I stayed there until January. 

John Rutledge: Now, I did that in January, 1937. No, I didn't, no I didn't. Lord, I'm wrong. They tried to get me to stay there until January. I stayed there until Christmas Eve, 1937. And they paid us all. They tried to get us to stay, but I wouldn't stay. And I enjoyed that. He spends a whole lot down there in that place down there. Hmm. Yeah. Had a good time down there. Then I came on back in 1938, and I got that job down at Republic Steel. I stayed there 39 years and five months. 

Paul Ortiz: How did you get the job in Republic Steel? 

John Rutledge: Well, you see, they were hiring. 1938. Business opened up—Roosevelt was in that day and age. Jobs opened up and everything and they was hiring everybody. US Steel was hiring. [indistinct 00:03:09] Ball Pipe Shop was hiring. That's just before the war broke out. And everybody would go down there. They did hire them. Some of them would stay there and some of them went somewhere else, you know. Quit. Went somewhere else and get a job. But I stayed there. Bunch of us got hired that day. Man would come out there that morning and hire them. He'd go back. Then in the evening, another man would do the hiring. Yeah. So. 

John Rutledge: One guy would stutter, you know? He would do a stutter, he couldn't talk. And them other guys were telling him about, "Man, he ain't going to hire you, you can't talk." Liked to disencourage a man. Like his wife told him, said, "You go out there. Man can't do nothing but turn you down. Go on down there." Sure enough, he went on down there, and the man hired him. 

John Rutledge: He told a man, he said, "I'll be fair. I can't do much talking. I can't talk much." Man told him, said, "That's all right. We ain't hiring you to talk. We hiring you to work." That's the trouble with some of them down there. They talk too damn much. That's what he—he come back and told him that. He [indistinct 00:04:18] when he told him that. "I reckon all you and him are talking too much. Told me he didn't hire me to talk, he hired me to work." (laughs) 

John Rutledge: Yeah, a bunch of guys would grudge your chance, you know, didn't want you to get no job. They didn't want nobody to get good job working but them. But they just about had done bluffed the poor man. No, he stuttered when he talk. And then his wife got him to go on down there anyhow, and the man hired him. You know? He started not to go. They don't pay him what those guys were telling him. He left away from down there and came back. 

John Rutledge: "Hey, did you get hired?" Man said, "Yeah." "They dropped their heads then," he told me, man who hired, "They dropped their heads." He made sure these guys who said, "No, you didn't hire me. Just like y'all said." That'd have been all they wanted, you know. But when he said "yeah," they dropped their head and walked off. (laughs) 

Paul Ortiz: He showed him up. 

John Rutledge: That's the truth. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Paul Ortiz: So what was it like to work for Republic Steel in 1938? 

John Rutledge: Well, you did a whole lot of different kind of work. Hard work. It was a hard work down there all the time. Tennessee. We all started to work then like a—called it labor gang. That was about the cheapest rate you got down there. Would have a bunch of you together out there working. Old drags and things like that. You had fun. Enjoyed it. And worked on through all of that and got good jobs. I did. 

John Rutledge: I worked all up on a stock [indistinct 00:06:13]. Dumping ore. Had—oh, now, what's it called? Monkey hole. But got a stock [indistinct 00:06:23] and got down there running them steel car, bringing that ore. And them cabs would come down in that hole and dump that ore and get up there and dump it in there. Furnace, you know. Make pigs, make iron out of it. I was the clean up man. I had to go down there and clean up when they missed. Sometimes they'd miss their cab and dump it all on the ground, and I had to go down there and clean all that up. 

Paul Ortiz: You'd clean what up? 

John Rutledge: That ore, you know? 

Paul Ortiz: Oh. 

John Rutledge: They had a hole down there. Big hole. Big enough for you to get out the way of them cabs. And had two—four double tracks come down in there. For them cabs to run on rails like a railroad, you know. Come down in that hole. And they'd run on those scale cars down, it had tracks, too. They had hoppers. Well, them hoppers come right over one of them scale car, like one of—those trams would come under there, and that scale car would dump that stuff on down through that chute down in that hopper, that cab, cab up there on the furnace. 

John Rutledge: And sometimes they would miss that there. The guys on the scale car would miss that there. Go on this side, dump it until it all out where the cab at. So. They'd dump it down in there in the ground. I had to get down there and shovel it all up, you know. Ore, scrap iron, everything. You know. But it didn't kill me. I did it. Yeah. I didn't feel like I ever did it now. I been out so long. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: Is there a union at Republic Steel? 

John Rutledge: Yeah, we organized one in—I think it was probably—I don't know whether it's in the thirties or the forties we organized a union. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: Did you take part in that? 

John Rutledge: Oh, yeah. I enjoyed a whole lot of it. 

Paul Ortiz: How did you organize? 

John Rutledge: Well, they had a government man, right over here at an Italian store. The government man was over there. And he had everybody come over there and sign up. Sign their name and everything. And that's when they got organized. Then they got a union hall after then. You got union hall, bought a union hall after then. Everybody would come to the union lead and pay dues. You cutting dues out of our salaries, you know. So much dues out of our paycheck. So. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That way we got organized. Then you'd come out on strikes and things, and everybody would come out on the strike. You had to sign up to do that. They didn't scab down there. Anybody was scabbed, you got to worry if you scabbing down there, you get laid off. Won't let you work. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: Reverend Archie talked about taking messages back and forth when you were trying to unionize. 

John Rutledge: No, they had some scab would do that. Or a pigeon dropper carry—what went on in the union meeting, carry it back to the company. That what he was talking about in there. 

Paul Ortiz: Oh, he was talking about that? 

John Rutledge: Yeah, I guess that's what he was talking about. That's what you call a man scabbing. 

Paul Ortiz: Oh. 

John Rutledge: You see. He'd tell the foreman. Go back and tell the foreman everything went on in the union meeting. Get back in there—that's supposed to be kept secret. What went on in the union meeting, supposed to be kept secret from the company. Company wasn't supposed know what you carried on in—what went on in the union meeting. But he had some pigeon dropper would take it back to him, you know. And tell it like that. Yeah. Ain't that wrong? That's what happened. 

Paul Ortiz: What would happen if the company found out that you were trying to unionize? 

John Rutledge: Well, they eventually did tell you. They know what went on in the union meeting. But they wouldn't hardly tell you who told it. Yeah. They did tell you they know what went on in the union meeting. Now, that ought to have been secret between the union members. Ain't nobody pull a note on about what went on in a union meeting but the union member. Everybody that belonged to the union. Yeah. That true. He was telling the truth back there that they did. A bunch of them did do that. 

Paul Ortiz: Who would you say, when you were trying to organize in those first days, when you talked about signing up at the office. 

John Rutledge: Mm-hmm. 

Paul Ortiz: How would you communicate to other people to try to get them to sign up, too? Did you go back? 

John Rutledge: Well, what would happen there, you'd tell them about the—you'd get organized in the union, and you would command. You can command, and they said it was going to be nationwide, and which it was. From coast to coast. And they shut the whole world down. Some steel mills would, they'd cripple the whole with nothing now, making no steel nowhere. And that'd make them come to agreement quicker, you know. And the union gets what they want. See, that was happening here and happening all up New York. Cleveland. And Pittsburgh and all of them different places. Cargo. All of them big mills that are all up there and things like that, see, they was organizing up there, too, and down here, too. 

John Rutledge: And we got organized. We was nationwide. We were strong. And we come out on the strike, the whole world come out. All steel mill all over the world come out. But it was in that 2382. CIO. That's what it is. What union it was. CIO. Mm-hmm. And that was—that were—you tell them about that. Tell them, now, your company going to give y'all nothing that you fight for. You got the man what you wanted. He'd give about a nickel raise. You're making all that iron for him and making all that money, and he would give you a little about a nickel raise. Something like that. And we organized that union thing. We got pension. You got 13 weeks vacation. We got 11 holidays with pay. All a whole lot of good stuff, you know. Yes, sir. And all of them contracts that we got. That's the truth. 

John Rutledge: But the bottom fell out some reason. I don't know why. Some of them said Mr. Reagan did it. I don't know whether he did it or not. Broke up all of that. Got hired 14 weeks vacation. Before anybody broke that union. One guy could go around the world on a vacation, you know? For his 14 weeks, you know, you would go everywhere you want to go. And come on back time enough to go back to work. That's the truth, yeah. 

John Rutledge: We got all that in the union. Yeah. Because I got three 13 weeks myself. Yeah. Went to Chicago twice. To family reunions and things like that. Yeah. All around different things like that. Went to— 

Paul Ortiz: One more question about when you were organizing. There were, in your local, you had Black and White workers? 

John Rutledge: Oh, yeah. I'm going to tell you about that. Discriminated, now, I'm going to tell you about discriminated. They had union halls, and there wasn't a Black president of no local. You got hired as a grievance man, and that's all you got. In Black, back in that time. One Black guy got to be the chairman of the grievance man. Chairman of the Board on grievance man. One of them tried to get president, but he couldn't make it. Yeah. 

John Rutledge: Wouldn't let him be no president. Yeah. But he did get to be a grievance man. One boy named Sydney [indistinct 00:14:57], he got to be the chairman of all the grievance man. He's over all of them. That was all right, yeah. And there'd never be no president of no local. Not a Black man. Not down here. Might've been up the country somewhere. Didn't get down here, he wouldn't. Yeah. Not out here at Republic Steel, he didn't. I know. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: So there was still discrimination? 

John Rutledge: Yeah, discrimination. I'll tell you something else. Just like in the union hall, they had a platform up where the White would sit, and Blacks didn't never sit up there. The grievance man couldn't sit up there. Sat out on the floor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seems like, up on a platform up there, you know, around them. They're like church, like a pulpit. You know? Yeah. They're sitting around up there, and they're going to figure that out, and the grievance man, he couldn't sit, was no room up there. But he couldn't sit up there. 

John Rutledge: Discriminated. Discriminated in that union. Discriminated, no doubt about that. They discriminated. Yeah. But the bottom fell out. And I don't know what happened to the money. They were paying, just cutting us out of our dues, but when them union—they said it's—all the staff, went back to the staff. I don't know. We questioned all about it. "What y'all do with all that money left in them locals? Ain't no more union." The staff got it all, I bet. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: Was the union local broke, or Republic Steel closed down? 

John Rutledge: No, no, they wasn't broke. No, they wasn't broke. Hmm-mm. They had some money in treasury. But they are—what we was speaking about, when the plants shut down, nobody else working no more. What happened to the money? Wasn't no more union. When the plants shut down, that's the end of the union. You see? Nobody working. There ain't nobody to pay no more dues. But we were concerned about all that money they had within the treasury. What happened to that money? They told us it went on back to them [indistinct 00:17:25]. That's what they told us. Headquarters, you know? Pittsburgh or somewhere up there. Cleveland or somewhere. That's what they told us. So that's all. Couldn't tell us nothing. Hmm. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: When you were working at Republic Steel, what kind of fight did you have to try to work your way up the job ladder? 

John Rutledge: Well, you see, I'll tell you how that thing went. Let me show you how that thing went. Now, we didn't have to fight for that. The time that around John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King and all them fellows come on the staffs, they got to talk about how they'd be discriminated on jobs. They come up with a plan, it was one of the best plans you ever heard tell them. Said, whatever we going to tell these companies to do, they got to do it. And jobs and things come open up, put it up for bid. Post it up on the bulletin board. Up on the poster. Said that the oldest man, regardless to creed or color, bid on that job. And if you don't know it, you got to curb him a little while. Got to curb the Black just as you do the White. 

John Rutledge: Then, if the Black older than the White, the Black get it. That's the only reason we got to get them good jobs down there. And all over the South. The White man had all his good job. All his days, and I got to tell you now, they'd go down in the woods somewhere and get a man. Ain't never been to a steel mill. And bring him down there and put him on them job. And you still got that old hard job you had all the time. Put him up over you. Operating. Things of that nature. 

John Rutledge: Uncle Sam made him do the sharing. He started putting them jobs up for bid. But the Black dudes—most of the Black guys was older than the White guys down there anyhow. Now, they couldn't take the White man job what he already had. But a new job put up on the board, he could bid on that and get that. Yeah. Yeah, that was fair. He didn't go back and tell that man, roll that man off his job. Couldn't do that. 

Paul Ortiz: Now before that happened, how would you get a job? I mean, how would you get another higher paid job? 

John Rutledge: Well, you didn't get no higher paid job. I mean, didn't get them. Didn't get none. Unless that one would come open. If one come open, now you could get it. But them there, with the—that's the only way you got them job. When one come up on 'em— 

John Rutledge: At that time, when a White man took a vacation or something, then another White man would move up on that or something. One passed to do so. Another man would move up on that job. Yeah. That's the only way you got it. Yes, sir. Mm-hmm. 

Paul Ortiz: So when you were working at Republic at the beginning, were you living here in this area? 

John Rutledge: I was living right here. 

Paul Ortiz: In this house? 

John Rutledge: I was living down on another street down there for awhile. 

Paul Ortiz: Okay. 

John Rutledge: But I bought this house, yeah, from Republic Steel, and remodeled it. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: So all these houses were company-owned? 

John Rutledge: Yeah. These company house. All of them. 

Paul Ortiz: Where would you go to get your groceries and stuff? 

John Rutledge: Oh, shoot. There's plenty of grocery stores around here. One right across the track down that time. I'd trade with that man. He's Italian. Then they had a bunch of stores around. You could go to them. Got them A&P Store. Winn-Dixies and things. Around. You could go to them store. They pulled [indistinct 00:21:31] them, they hadn't been too long, before they, you know, come up. And things of that nature. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: Did Republic operate a commissary, or a— 

John Rutledge: Yeah. They did that. I traded at that. 

Paul Ortiz: How did that work? 

John Rutledge: Well, they'd cut your money out. You [indistinct 00:21:49] and then payday you wouldn't draw that. They'd cut them on out of your payroll. That's what they did. Yep. Whole lot of them didn't draw nothing, too. A whole lot of guys didn't draw nothing. That's the whole truth, now. 

Paul Ortiz: Who was responsible for security around here? Did Republic have a police force? 

John Rutledge: They had guards down there that's keep—on gate. Yeah. They had guard on the gate down there. Yeah. And chief police. Chief guard and everything down there. Yeah. Had them down there. Protect they property. Uh-huh. 

Paul Ortiz: Did they patrol up and down this neighborhood? 

John Rutledge: Not much. They didn't ever hardly come up and down here. Yeah. 1934 they had a strike. They would come around through here. Yeah. That's about all. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: Did you get married? 

John Rutledge: Yeah, my wife passed. Mm-hmm. 

Paul Ortiz: When did you get married? 

John Rutledge: 1940. Mm-hmm. 

Paul Ortiz: Did you meet your wife around here, or? 

John Rutledge: No, she came from Dothan, Alabama. I met her here, but her home was down there in Dothan, Alabama. Hmm. 

Paul Ortiz: How did you meet her? 

John Rutledge: Well, her mother was up here before she came up here. And then her mother went down there and brought her up here. Then I met her. Then she went back, and then she come back and me and her got married. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. She died last year. Hold on just one minute. Take that off. [INTERRUPTION] 

Paul Ortiz: Mr. Rutledge, were there occasions around Thomas that people would get together? Celebrations? Parties, things like that? 

John Rutledge: Oh, yeah. They had plenty of jokes around here. Parties and things on Saturday night and everything like that. Had plenty of that. Yeah. You'd have quite a bit of that. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: And so this area was primarily Black families? 

John Rutledge: Yeah, all up in there were Black. The White lived back up on the other end. Back up there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: Do you remember the street that the Whites lived on? 

John Rutledge: You got Fourth Street. Yeah. And Second Street. Third Street. And First Street. First Street, Second Street, Third Street, Fourth Street. Fifth Street. Down all of them, I think. 

Paul Ortiz: And then Blacks lived on— 

John Rutledge: Yeah, [indistinct 00:25:05] Eighth Street. And Seventh Street. Sixth Street. Fifth Street. Fourth Street. The Blacks lived on. Yeah. Yeah, that's where that is. Mm-hmm. 

Paul Ortiz: What were the biggest changes that you was in Thomas through those years? 

John Rutledge: Well, when they sold these houses, well, they sold these house to us. One of them go out there, they cutting the rent. Just cutting the rent. And they decided that well, to put these houses up for sale, and we had the first choice. What living in them, you had the first choice, but if you just wouldn't buy it, then you had to get out. Have somebody else buy it. Had a deadline, you know, for you to buy them. A whole lot of them bought them and then lose them. That the truth. Bought the house, then lose them. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure did. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: What year did they sell these houses? Do you know? 

John Rutledge: Let's see. It wasn't—it was in the '30s, I think. I believe it was around '39, I believe. I believe it was, now. I believe around '39 [indistinct 00:26:56]. Yeah. 

Paul Ortiz: There's a bit of paperwork that goes in with your tape. We'll go ahead and—