-: Betty Kersting, we had to change.
They were having problems with the phone line,
so if you could pick up with
where you went to school again.
-: I spent my first two years of college
in McPherson, Kansas at Church of the Brethren school.
'Cause grew up, my family was involved
in the Church of the Brethren.
And then Mom and Dad moved to Washington State
and so I transferred Woodburn College
which was a private training school.
Then Washington State and in trying to decide
where I wanted to go to graduate school.
It was really difficult because at Woodburn
I experienced a very conservative Presbyterian
and I didn't really want to go somewhere
where they would be conservative Presbyterian.
They all actually taught.
(both laughing)
So I finally decided to go to San Francisco Theological
seminary which very mind stretching and wonderful.
-: Oh wonderful, well what work or ministry were you doing
then at the time of Re-Imagining?
-: What was I doing? -: Yes.
-: My husband and I had retired
and we returned to San Jose.
This is his hometown.
This is where he's a third generation in Santa Fe.
So we had here for a year in retirement.
-: Okay, in 1993 at the time of Re-Imagining.
You were both retired at that point.
-: We were retired.
-: Oh okay, what kind of work
-: We had just been here maybe a year, two years.
Okay so what kind of work or ministry had you done
before that Betty?
-: Well as I said my time was divided between social work
and the church and I in time was able to go back
and get my degrees in clinical social work.
And I started a family ministry in our church
with counseling and groups for young mothers.
And then politically since my husband was pastor
and people didn't think I should be paid for my work.
I moved to the local mental health center
and became the manager of the mental health center
and a therapist at that time.
-: Wow, okay, very interesting.
So Betty do you recall how or when you first became
aware of feminist theology?
-: Really, Re-Imagining. -: Really?
-: I had gotten so much into the social work
and into my private practice then
that I just hadn't thought about.
I didn't know about feminist theology really.
I knew that some of the study groups that I had just started
with personal friends in Colorado that we quite.
One time we ended with the study we were reading.
I can't remember we're studying words or whatever.
We all looked at one another and threw our books
in the middle of the room and said it's enough of that.
-: Oh really?
What provoke that?
Do you remember?
-: Pardon?
-: What provoke that reaction?
Do you remember?
-: I'm sure it's just what didn't go along
with our views of who and what women are (laughing).
It just wasn't acceptable to us
and I can't remember whether
that was a Presbyterian women's study.
'Cause they kept wonderful studies I think.
Later at that time, that would have been
like in late 70s and 80s.
I can just remember that one happening
of throwing them in the middle of the room
and that's enough.
We're not doing that anymore.
(both laughing)
-: Well it sounds like even
if you didn't know feminist theology.
Had you already encountered feminist ideas or?
-: Oh yes, pretty much so.
We met in Taos, New Mexico in the 60s
and we spend a lot of time at Ghost ranch.
And Jennifer Dan was there I think.
It was just the beginning of an era.
When did they start the NOW organization.
-: Oh I don't remember the exact date.
That's a good question.
-: I think it was that summer
she began to think about starting.
I just remembered that being a summer
that it really struck me.
And that would have been in the 60s.
-: Exactly, wow, oh interesting.
So I am really eager to hear.
What led to you going to the Re-Imagining conference then?
-: I really didn't know about the Re-Imagining conference
but my husband saw it advertised
and a friend in Colorado saw it advertised.
My husband suggest that I go.
My friend in Colorado said,
"Go, I'm sending you with my money."
-: Oh really, wow.
-: He paid for my way to go.
-: How nice.
-: Now your husband was a Presbyterian minister, right?
-: Yes.
-: Yes, I'm just curious.
Do you know what about the conference intrigued him
and your friend to make them want you to go?
-: Penny had been a member of the Presbyterian church
that her family had in Minneapolis.
-: Oh I see.
-: I think that's how Penny probably heard about it.
-: Okay, sure, okay.
-: And Raymond would have heard about it through
some national Presbyterian PCUSA material.
He'd be going very much aware of what's being published
and what's going on and all the conferences,
and he knew I was a feminist so.
-: Yes, oh that's great.
So obviously you went to the '93 conference.
I would love to hear what your experience was there.
-: I was just thinking, the words that came to me
when I was thinking about this.
I thought the image and were Miriam dancing.
-: Say some more about that.
-: Just the joy, the utter joy and the strength,
the boldness, the celebration.
-: Yes, yeah that's a great image.
Were there certain memories in particular
that you have of that conference?
Things that particularly struck you?
-: Certainly the speakers and the music
and the freedom to explore, freedom to interpret.
There was no rigidity there.
The openness.
-: And you said that this was really your first exposure
to feminist theology.
-: Yes from the Christian perspective, yeah.
Otherwise it had just been feminist.
-: Yes but it sounds like you immediately resonated with it?
-: Pretty much so.
I had just come back.
I can't remember but Raymond and I
had just gotten back from a trip to Peru or where we.
I was exhausted when I arrived there,
and I talked one friend from Santa Fe in going with me.
And Jackie was not a feminist
and she had never read any theology
and it was so much better to see Jackie
just explode, it was wonderful.
-: Oh when you say to explode.
-: Just loved it.
-: Oh that's wonderful.
Is she the one who wrote the essay with you?
In Remembering and Re-Imagining?
-: Yes, uh-huh.
-: Okay, you mentioned that you attended
some of the other conferences as well.
I know it's been awhile, are there any moments
that you particularly recall?
-: Let me think.
The one where I just remember there were several
but one was the images of the house.
There were images of people around the room
weren't there?
Cut out of people.
-: Yes, was this the women who had been the result
of domestic violence was that what you're thinking of?
-: I just remembered being surrounded by those
and by then some of us had been
to the Fourth World Women's Conference together in Beijing.
And we were able to meet again there.
The friendships that begin to form
across the country was so exciting.
-: You mean because of Re-Imagining?
-: Yeah because it gave us an opportunity to be together
and just celebrate and learn together.
-: Yes, wow and so you went to the Beijing meeting?
-: Yes, uh-huh.
-: And I know it's not directly Re-Imagining
but I'd love to hear about any memories you have of that.
-: It was a fantastic experience.
I met with United Church women
and in a way it was lonely,
'cause I really didn't go with someone that I knew.
But it was through that that I met a lot of women.
But it was an unbelievable experience
being with all of those wonderful women.
-: Yeah, yeah Betty you were aware of the backlash
after the '93 Conference?
Well I know you were so did any of it affect you directly?
-: It affected me because of General Assembly
and I did go to General Assembly and was just furious
with the questions being asked of us.
And I did testify at General Assembly
because we had to get up and testify
about what happened and what I experience was
because we were accused of much.
-: I wanna hear more about this.
This is fascinating.
First of all, did you volunteer to testify?
Is that how that worked?
-: Yeah, uh-huh.
-: And how long did you have to testify?
-: Not very long.
I have a complex.
You change computers and you gradually
tend to lose stuff written down.
-: I know.
-: But at least I do and I must have it somewhere.
I guess I was just so angry to be questioned
about my faith and my belief
and as an elder in the church.
As one who had a theological education as a woman,
as a teacher. -: Yes.
-: I was just furious and we all were just furious about that
and I know that we had sent around a petition,
and I sent a petition to my mother in Washington State.
And at that time, mother was 80.
The same age I'm going to be and mother got in her car
and she drove around to all the church members
and had them sign that petition.
And I don't know if you had a copy of that petition
but I don't even know what it says
but I know my mother was really upset.
-: Oh my goodness.
I don't have a copy.
I just know from your essay, you described it as a petition
supporting the right of women to search out
their own spirituality.
It was along those lines?
-: It must have been.
Just when I wrote that,
I was in Close Ridge at that time.
-: It's been a long time, I know.
You said that you were referred to as the Santa Fe Six?
-: Yeah, the Santa Fe Six,
that's when we sort of pulled together
and we went to General Assembly.
And also the other place we went
was the Christian Women Conference in,
I think it was in Maine, Iowa that year
that we went there.
We specifically went to National Conference.
so we could speak positively about our experience.
-: Really?
I wanna hear about both of those.
Before we more onto that I wanted to hear
about General Assembly.
What was the reaction to your petition?
-: There were a lot of people that were very opposed
to what we did and there were also a lot people
that gave support and certainly the Presbyterian women.
And I remember we put in things
so there's always this big vendor area,
and then the different organizations
have their booth and all that.
And I just remember working real hard,
handing out information to people.
Trying to educate them about it
and putting up posters and signs.
-: You were busy. -: All of that.
-: I know it's been awhile, as you know a report
was finally voted on about Re-Imagining
at the General Assembly.
-: You know I can't even remember what was said.
-: It's been a long time, that's fine.
But do you have any memory of how you felt when you left
General Assembly after doing all that?
-: I came away not satisfied.
More emboldened I'm sure.
-: And you said you were angry and upset.
I think you said some really good things there
but what was the particular things that were said
that made you upset or that seemed really wrong to you?
-: You know i just kept going through my mind
was how dare they question us.
How dare they judge us?
-: Yeah, yeah and what was it like
when you went to Presbyterian Women
or these other meetings to explain?
-: There was some very supportive people
and there were people that were not supportive.
Again that we did the presentations
and just tried to spread the word,
talk to people when we had meals together.
And those of us who went really reinforced one another.
I think there must have been at least three of us
from Santa Fe that went.
That have been to, there were three of us
I think that went.
-: That went to Presbyterian Women
that had been to Re-Imagining?
-: Yeah, I'm just trying, yeah I think.
I'm really confused about one person
and when she went to Re-Imagining.
I'm having a hard time.
I just need to write down dates and try to figure things out
and I haven't done that.
-: Don't worry that's fine.
This is really helpful.
I wondered as you look back at it.
How do you account for the reaction against Re-Imagining?
What caused it?
-: I think men, orthodoxy, lack of openness.
I don't know whether some people might think
that there was fear.
I probably say more stupidity.
(both laughing)
You know, Raymond had left what we call
contemporary worship services for many years.
Since the early 70s and so I was so attuned
to a different, for a more open worship service.
And being allowed to use a screen and worship
with imagery that went along with all the scripture
and all of that.
That I probably was more open to receiving this
than some because in Santa Fe.
If anyone says have a scream in the sanctuary,
everybody throws up their arms in dismay.
I mean it's like, oh you gotta be kidding.
-: Are you saying now this is true?
-: We should be using iPads by now.
(laughing)
-: Well I wanna hear about, there are several things
that you were involved in and one of them was
a Women's Theological book group
that apparently is still meeting.
I would love to hear about that.
-: We should pull together all the books that we read
'cause we read some real topics.
But once we started out with,
we were talking the other day
and one of our first books was by Isler.
Do you know her?
-: Yes, yes.
-: It's something about God.
We read goddess books.
We read since we were accused of worshiping goddesses.
We though we should read about it.
(both laughing)
-: And what did you, go ahead.
-: Since we're in Tennessee and it's in our community.
The church sponsoring art show for the church
and I made an image of Sophia.
A little image of her and put her in the art show.
-: What did Sophia look like?
-: I can send you a photo.
-: I would love to see it, yes.
-: She just need olive cloth.
She looks like a little doll and she has curly hair
and I embroidered Sophia across it.
She's just tiny.
About 6 inches tall.
-: Wow.
-: And then I use, I came across a quote the other day.
One of Elizabeth Johnson's.
A quote from her book that I put along with Sophia
but I still have her.
-: Oh I would love to, if you don't mind sending a picture.
I would love to have that.
That is great.
Well I'm curious when you read these books about goddess,
did you conclude that you were worshiping a goddess?
What did you decide?
-: No, not really no.
-: What did you understand about Sophia?
Who was Sophia for you?
-: Wisdom.
The feminine of the divine.
-: Yes, yeah, yep.
-: It was fun to think that man thinking that it was image
that we were worshiping.
We really enjoyed that.
-: Did you?
Why did you enjoy that?
What did you enjoy?
-: It was so wrong.
(both laughing)
And in the Presbyterian church we started Voices of Sophia.
-: I wanted to ask you about that.
Were you involved in starting Voices of Sophia?
-: Yes, uh-huh.
-: Oh please tell me about that.
I've interviewed Sylvia Thorson-Smith.
-: I went to the first meeting.
It was very quiet but there must have been,
I know there were three of us
that went to the very first gathering.
There might have been four, six.
We'd all have to talk and write it down.
But did go to the first and I just remember
how painful it was choosing our name.
There's pairs that were schedule.
Because some people said well you're confronting
the church more and more.
Then people have already said we're worshiping Sophia
and now you wanna name us Voices of Sophia.
And we all thought we had earned the right for that name.
-: That's interesting say some more.
What do you mean you had earned the right to that name?
-: We had been accused of Sophia worshiping.
We justified at General Assembly.
The men just couldn't get it and we were Voices of Sophia.
Voices of Wisdom, Voices of a feminine divine
and we'd earned that right.
-: And tell me about I mean this is
a very interesting movement.
What are some of your memories of Voices of Sophia?
-: One of the first memories I remember
that our first gathering of trying to decide our name
and how painful that was to come to a consensus.
Another piece was a beautiful night with the moon,
full moon and someone was playing a flute
and we were outside.
Just walking, following the flute in a big parade.
It was a wonderful feeling.
-: Oh yes.
-: The freedom and the celebration of women.
-: Yeah, oh that is wonderful.
So you were involved in Voices of Sophia.
This women's theological book group
that you said is still meeting?
-: Uh-huh.
-: How many women are in it?
-: Of the original group, one person has died.
Well we have nine people now
and I think just one person has died in the group.
-: And all of these nine women have been part of it
for years now?
-: Yeah and one person moved away for a year
but when she came back she was immediately in the group.
I had to not be part of the group for awhile
'cause I had to care for my mother for some years,
and I just couldn't go.
But we're all back together right now.
-: Wow, you know there just aren't that many groups
that stay together that long.
What is it about this group that keeps you together?
-: Well I think the support,
our reading together.
The commonality that we've come to.
Let me see, we all go to the same church now
except two that don't now
'cause they live in Albuquerque.
-: Is it all Presbyterian women?
-: Yes, well the one person in Albuquerque.
Her caregiver drives her over -: Oh wow.
-: From Albuquerque to the group.
And Sarah whose caregiver is not Presbyterian
but is really a delight to have her
because she's probably in her late 30s.
And we're all approaching
I think we're probably all 80 or over
and it's quite a delight to have Sarah in our group.
-: That's wonderful.
And she comes because she's the caregiver
but obviously she's part of your group now
and contributes.
-: She reads the book and shares in the conversations.
-: That is great.
You also mentioned you formed a group
called The Women Who Came.
An ongoing women's worship group.
I would love to hear more about that.
-: We were able to plan our own liturgy for that
and this was not just Presbyterian.
It was United Church of Christ women and Presbyterian.
Probably those two churches were the most represented
and we would have at times up to 15 or 20 women.
And we planned our liturgy, our conversation.
Some women had never put together a worship experience
or did something different like a worship center
or they just had never down any of that.
That some of the women in our group
were very head women.
They're in their heads, not in their hearts
as much as they would like to be.
So it was a very good experience.
-: And this was related to Re-Imagining?
-: Yes, I think it was a total outcome of that.
Trying to recreate the experience for ourselves
because we loved the experience.
And did you use Re-Imagining materials
or was it the materials you created or what?
-: Materials that we created.
We very often used the music.
The music from Re-Imagining was such a joy
and it really spoke to our souls and we used that music.
And that was one of the hardest things to recreate so
because you need to have a musician that also feels it.
When we first came back from Re-Imagining.
We were forced in, I think sadly churches.
Pretty progressive but for years since the 70s.
There had been what they called their contemporary worship,
and people had planned the liturgy in that worship service
by themselves for years.
And have their own music group and they worked.
It was just an excellent place to come back
and we brought in the drum.
We used the music from Re-Imagining
and then Jackie 'cause it was such a new experience
for her, spoke that day.
So we immediately shared with our congregation
what we had experienced at Re-Imagining.
So the church wasn't taken off guard
by what they were hearing from elsewhere.
-: Oh so the Re-Imagining music and other materials
were used in the contemporary worship
at the Presbyterian church in Santa Fe?
-: Yes, uh-huh. -: Okay.
-: We brought in a very large Indian drum.
My big drum.
-: Oh wow and was this like a one time thing
or was this a continuing?
-: I think that we did one presentation at that time
and had a great response.
Such a positive response.
-: But then do you recall about how long the women's
worship group lasted that you're talking about?
-: I would say a couple years.
And one time, we had one of the women who attended.
Her husband I think decided,
he's a professor of theology somewhere.
I think he decided that he needed to come
and check us out and (laughing).
So he came with Marilyn and it really stood out to me
what happens to a Women's group when a man comes in.
-: Oh tell me, what happened?
-: Just all of a sudden everybody just closes up.
All of a sudden it's like we were on guard.
What's going on here?
That is the very firm memory
and (laughing) I see that happen at times.
Well I see that often.
Whether it be on the session or
in a study group or whatever.
-: That when a man is involved or men are involved.
It kind of shuts it down a little bit or a lot?
-: Yeah.
-: Now if I understood you correctly.
Did you see that he was coming to check you out.
So you assumed he was kind of coming
to judge or critique you is that the way.
-: Oh I think so, he had to find out
what Marilyn was attending and what we were doing.
Sort of that same old dealing
that we had at General Assembly.
They didn't trust what we were up to.
-: Yeah and I'm curious was there any fall out from that?
Any response from him or?
-: No.
-: And the group continued I assumed.
-: He only came once.
-: And then you mentioned that you had a Re-Imagining
gathering in Santa Fe.
What do you remember about that?
-: It was wonderful.
Again I was so heavily involved in habitat
and in the families of Tibet and then I was chair
of this group that decided to put on this Re-Imagining.
But Ghost Ranch Santa Fe which is the conference ground
was in existence at that time and we got a space there.
And it was really just a small room
and we had to limit it to 81 people.
And then we had a waiting list and when anyone dropped out.
I remember the night before it happened.
Someone dropped out and so we called the next person
on the waiting list and they were there the next morning.
-: Oh wow.
-: And people came from all over New Mexico.
-: Really?
-: And how we settled it was a small room for 81 people
but we wanted people to experience getting to know
a small group so we put TV trays
and decorate the little TV trays.
And then we put four or five people
in chairs around the TV trays.
So you had a group with whom you could respond
to what was going on in the presentation.
-: Oh, that's great like the round tables at Re-Imagining.
-: Yes, we could really, at Re-Imagining sometimes.
I couldn't hear.
-: Yes, yes, yes.
-: And I really considered this tiny room
when I was sitting there.
We could put our heads together.
We could (laughing) one another.
-: And I'm curious did you mostly use resources
from Re-Imagining?
Did you create new ones?
What did you do there?
-: We used the music from Re-Imagining
and so that was good but we didn't have the music leadership
that would have been good.
And Chris from United Seminary.
We asked Chris, I can't remember.
-: Chris Smith perhaps?
-: Chris what?
-: Chris Smith, Christie Smith from United.
-: Yes, Chris Smith came and she did the presentation.
-: Oh great.
-: But you know, women can do this to one another.
We do it to one another which makes me so sad.
This group of women that been
through Re-Imagining together.
We're the ones that planned this and put it on
and we ask Chris from the seminary, United Seminary
and there were people from the United Church in Santa Fe.
It wasn't just Presbyterian that planned it
but I got a call from our minister at the time.
Who was a woman and was very upset with me
because I didn't tell her.
Chris was coming to town that I didn't.
I don't know permission.
We upset her terribly with this whole conference
-: Because you hadn't gotten her permission
is what you understood?
-: Her permission and her input that we had just done it
as a group of women and all of a sudden I felt weak to this,
to one another because there's a woman judging us
for doing what we're doing.
-: Yes, yeah.
Was that the only the reaction you got to the Re-Imagining
gathering you had?
-: Oh no, we had Catholic people that came.
I know the little people I was at.
There was a Catholic couple there.
We had from all different churches.
We had people come from southern New Mexico,
from northern New Mexico.
It was a wonderful response.
-: And I assume not all of them could have gone
to the Re-Imagining in the twin cities right?
-: That's why we wanted to do it here.
-: I see to give them that experience.
-: Yeah, now if I haven't been so tired.
We would have continued doing that
but my life became more complicated
with caring for my mother.
And I just simply couldn't do everything I'd been doing.
-: Sure and I know the exact date doesn't really matter.
I'm just wondering was this shortly
after the original '93 conference, do you think
or was it several years down the line?
-: It probably was several years down the line.
I was just talking to Raymond about that before you called
and I simply can not hold back
but I have looked and see.
-: If it's not too much trouble that would be great
but that's okay too.
But what's important is that it happened.
That you remember what it was like.
-: It was a delightful experience.
We used colors and fabrics and ribbons
and Chris spoke and we had response groups.
And it was wonderful and the other thing.
The other response from the church was that actually
the day before, the program director at the Ghost Ranch.
They called me and said, so and so was told
from first pres that you have more people
than what the room that you've planned on.
So they said that they have moved your conference
over to the church.
-: Oh really?
-: And I said absolutely not (laughing).
-: Yes, wow.
-: We are having conference where we have planned it.
It is prepared, it will be fine.
-: Wow, so just so I understand.
Did Ghost Ranch call the church and tell them?
How did the church ever get involved in that?
-: We just have a very close relationship
between the church and Ghost Ranch Santa Fe.
-: I see.
-: And the program director knew the woman very well
that we're planning the conference.
So he received this call from the church
saying that and so Jim called me and I said.
We're meeting at Ghost Ranch Santa Fe.
We didn't want it to be in the church.
Specifically didn't want it to be in the church.
-: And why is that?
-: Well we want people to have the freedom.
-: The freedom to?
-: The freedom to experience.
-: Yeah and you've feel as if the church wouldn't have.
-: It would have been limited and the structure
and the physical structure as well as these structure.
The governing structure.
That wasn't our intent to have it there.
-: Yeah, yeah that makes sense.
Okay that's good.
Betty how would you having all these experiences,
how would you define Re-Imagining?
-: I still go back to it's Miriam dancing.
I still go back to that image of women
with strong leadership.
With music and dance, open ness.
I'm not sure I have the real understanding of Midrash
but I always feel like that they in Midrash.
They allow people to re-enter earth
and reinvent to understand the depth of meaning
and I think so often orthodox
in our churches just cut that all off.
If anyone can re-invent it, the women can.
-: That is really interesting.
That's an interesting image of Midrash.
So what do you see Re-Imagining reinterpreting?
-: How you worship.
How you sing.
How you express your faith.
-: That's great.
-: Once you come to understand your faith to be.
-: Yeah, yeah and Betty what aspects of Re-Imagining
were most significant to you and why?
-: Well I think that Ghost Ranch had two conference
and there's one in Santa Fe which is closed now.
But one that's in Evoque, northern New Mexico
and I was thinking at comparing a conference
I went to there which had excellent leaders.
But you know what I missed the most.
There wasn't the music.
There was no music and somehow in our Christian tradition
and then I'm assuming the Jewish tradition.
There is music.
Where our soul can express.
-: Oh that's beautiful.
Did your involvement in Re-Imagining change your perspective
on feminist theology?
Well I guess from what you said,
it kind of introduce you to it.
-: It introduce me to it.
It reminded me of feminism
and it brought me back to that place.
But also then of the readings
that we've done over the years.
In fact, theology, it directed us into that area
of really looking at it.
We were talking the other day.
We think we need to go back now
because we need to start reading all of that over again.
(both laughing)
-: And just to make sure I'm clear.
What are you thinking of?
What needs to be read again?
-: We should go back and read the first book
and see how we feel about that.
I would like to go back and read Elizabeth Johnson's,
I forgot the name of her book.
-: She who is?
-: Yes, I just felt like I danced through that book.
I loved that book.
-: This is your book club that's talking about this?
-: Uh-huh.
-: Yeah, I love it.
I mean you danced through that book.
Tell me more about that.
-: I have to read it again.
(both laughing)
It was glorious.
-: Yeah, yeah oh that's wonderful.
Did your involvement in Re-Imagining
change your perspective on the church?
-: Well it certainly did.
Women are able but also feel like
it continues to be very difficult
for women to be able speak out and to be heard.
Sometimes, I was trying to think when was I on session?
I was on session several years after that.
I'm probably the first woman to sign,
given the privilege of signing checks.
-: Really?
-: Be a signer of checks at the church
and that was quite a discussion.
(Betty laughing)
-: Really?
Tell me about this.
What was the discussion about?
-: Well they've just never had a woman do that before.
-: Really?
-: And they hadn't had a woman clerk before.
-: And I'm just curious.
What kinds of things did they say?
-: Well they didn't say anything to me but I saw it.
I felt the conversations going on around me (laughing).
-: Really?
-: And also noticed that on a session,
I organize the women because it seemed like the power
and I sit at one end of the table.
So I talked to the women and I said,
we are not sitting together, let's spread ourselves out
and I will take this one man that always talk so much.
I am taking him on.
I'm gonna sit next to him
and we just sprinkle ourselves around
and felt like we began to have a little bit more voice.
-: You were strategic.
-: You have to be.
-: Now just to clarify, was this the church in Santa Fe?
-: Yes.
-: Oh it was 'cause I got the impression from what you said
it was a pretty progressive church.
-: It is but yeah.
(both laughing)
Santa Fe has the CEOs come and retire here.
-: Oh I see.
-: So it's a very changing church.
It has continued to be progressive, not totally.
But it's continued to be.
There's always another CEO that's moved in
that has a secretary.
-: I see, yep.
And you'll sit next to him.
-: That's what I would do.
I would sit next to him.
He never could remember my name so I started,
I can't even remember his real name now.
I started calling him Chucky boy.
-: To his face?
-: Uh-huh.
-: Oh really?
-: Because he could never remember my name
and so I said, "Chucky boy, my name's Betty."
It was really a fun name for him so he really liked it.
-: Really?
Oh my goodness so you two established
a kind of relationship?
-: Yes, uh-huh.
-: A positive one?
-: We had a working relationship.
Yeah, a good one.
-: Good, wow.
That's pretty impressive.
(both laughing)
Well Betty looking back what do you think
is the greatest legacy of the Re-Imagining community?
-: I'd start to say joy.
I think the feeling that women supporting one another
across this country.
We've lost that 'cause voice quit
and Re-Imagining quit and so that joy
that we use to experience of being together
and celebrating disappeared.
And then it just gradually in a way disappeared locally.
The energy begin to drain out which was,
and as I said my life became
very much involved in something else
and I just couldn't take it on anymore.
But I just feel there's a real need for that.
I know at times I go on internet search.
Are there any good women's conferences going on.
Any good conference there's gonna be music
and good stimulating theology and I haven't found it.
-: Yeah, yeah so I guess it kind of brings me to
what do you think Re-Imagining means today?
I mean you're already starting to say this
but what needs to be Re-Imagined?
What still needs to be done?
-: Women coming together
and remembering who they're called to be.
-: You said other than that group
that you're still part of,
you feel like that's not really happening now.
-: Correct. -: Yeah, yeah.
-: And I know people's life change and I'm trying to think
is it because I had other responsibilities.
Life did change and then change would go open a door again
that seemed closed.
I don't know.
And there use to be this information coming from
the year of the woman with international.
You have to help me 'cause you're in this now
and I've forgotten all about it.
-: Oh the ecumenical decade in solidarity of women?
Yes, got ya, yes.
-: And the resources that came out that could be used
for some of those resources.
That's not anymore.
Where are the resources?
-: Right well actually that kind of brings me
to me last question which is,
as you know the Re-Imagining group has reincorporated
and we are working on a website.
Which will partly have archives material
but also resources.
And I'm wondering if you had any ideas
about what to include in there
and who would benefit from it.
Any ideas you have.
What are you looking for?
You mentioned conferences maybe?
-: Conferences because if you can't,
right now we feel think you call it spiritual growth
and excitement in our own Santa Fe church.
And so to find some place to go to share music of the soul
and to sing and to share some very deep, provocative
speaking would be wonderful.
-: Yeah, yes, yes.
-: It sort of refresh the soul.
-: Refresh the soul.
Yes that's a good way to put it.
Betty, this has been wonderful, delightful.
I'm wondering if there's anything that you wanna add
before we end?
-: I don't think so, I've talked about the book group,
party gathering and the Re-Imagining
and Voices of Sophia and I think not.
-: Oh well thank you.
I'm gonna turn off the recording now
so just give me one second to do that.