Ruth Morris: — but we grew up in First Ward on North Davidson Street between Seventh and Eighth Streets. Kara Miles: What was your house like? Ruth Morris: Well, our house, we had a story and a half house. What was it? Eight rooms? Yeah, eight room house we lived in and of course, there were how many of us in the family? Catherine Morris Wilson: Nine. Ruth Morris: Nine of us there in the family with my mother and father. And of course, we had a very good life, although there were many of us there. My father was a brick mason. My mother was at home. Was a homemaker. Catherine Morris Wilson: And I am next to the youngest. There was six girls and three boys, the oldest, a girl, and the youngest, a boy, of the nine. But now when I was born, my oldest sister finished high school the year after my birth. She really was not there when I was growing up, so to speak. She was out and was working. And during that time, the work that they did was maid service in homes out in Myers Park. That's where she was and she lived on the lot and came home on Wednesdays. They had Wednesdays off and on Sundays, half a day, something like that. Ruth Morris: In fact, that was the only type of work, more or less, for the Blacks to do too then. Of course, we were called the Negroes then, or Colored. Maid service and the butlers and— Catherine Morris Wilson: Yard. Ruth Morris: Yard work. In fact, if you went to school, probably the only thing to do be a teacher, a preacher, or nurse. And of course, there was a nurse here. The school was the Good Samaritan American Hospital, which was Black, and what church was that at? Catherine Morris Wilson: The Episcopal Church. Ruth Morris: Church, yes. Catherine Morris Wilson: And All the Angels was the church down on the South Met Street. Kara Miles: How did your father learn his trade? Catherine Morris Wilson: Another friend of the family, an older person taught him how to lay brick and that was his trade although— And he had no education. He was illiterate, but he could count his hours and his money. My mother, more or less, taught herself how to read and write her name, but they believed in education. They were determined that we would get an education and we did. All but one finished high school, wasn't it? Kara Miles: Mm—hmm. Catherine Morris Wilson: And that was my older brother. And of the nine, let's see, Lucia, Ruth, Margie, me and Herman, five of us finished college. Kara Miles: Did you— Ruth Morris: One brother did attend college but he did not finish. Catherine Morris Wilson: Well, Sarah went. The other sister went to Winston—Salem, but she did not finish. She got sick and had to come out. Kara Miles: Did your parents have the money to pay to put you all through college or did you have to find other ways of— Catherine Morris Wilson: There was no other way. Well, you could get scholarships, if you got scholarships, and I believe during that time they did have something they called a work aid. Ruth Morris: Yeah, work aid. Catherine Morris Wilson: Work aid, but— Ruth Morris: What was that called? Catherine Morris Wilson: — most of what it was— It's interesting, I went to Livingstone College, a church school that's near [indistinct 00:04:14], a church school in Salisbury, and room and board at that time a month was $18 but it was hard to come by. But my parents did come by it because I did not do work aid. And then as the older ones, with my being down on the— Ruth Morris: Bottom. Catherine Morris Wilson: — bottom, as they got out and got jobs, we helped each other through school. That's not [indistinct 00:04:40]. Ruth Morris: Yes, because my older sister, who was out in the maid service sent the next girl to school and then, as it is, we just passed it right on down to the next one. Now when I was in school, I went to Winston— Salem and my junior year I did get a job because that's the time Sarah went. There were two of us there at that time and I got to work there. I'm trying to think what that work was called, and that's been so long ago now, but I don't remember. I worked for two years and the first year I went to Winston—Salem room and board was $13 a month, and I believe it was around about $50 for tuition. Then it went up to $15. I think it was $15 when I finished and that was back in 1942 when I finished so that was before you were born. Kara Miles: Where did you work on the work aid? Ruth Morris: That was on the campus there at school. Well, I tell you what, my job was to— I was supervising the people who cleaned the bathrooms and answered the telephone sitting on the desk in the evening. That's what I did. See, some of the work aid, some of them, the boys mostly did the yard and some of the girls worked in the— Catherine Morris Wilson: Cafeteria. Ruth Morris: — in the dining hall. Catherine Morris Wilson: Dining hall. That what they would call it. Ruth Morris: Not the cafeteria. In the dining hall, you see these waitresses and some of them worked in the laundry because there was the laundry there where we took out laundry once a week. Certain days, took different classes— That was what it was there. It was different work. Most of the students were working students. Catherine Morris Wilson: But now getting back, you're talking about Jim Crow, and I guess that second thing is segregated. And it's always has been amusing to me when now you hear people say, "We want to get back to neighborhood schools." That's a joke because when we lived in First Ward, we at— You know where Orville— Have you been over there? Well anyway, we lived on North Davidson Street in the 400 block between Seventh and Eighth, where the next street was Ninth, and a block right up Ninth was an elementary school called First Ward Elementary School. We were in the 400 block and in the 500 blocks, some whites lived there when we lived there. And on Ninth Street, First Ward was always an integrated neighborhood because even on Seventh Street, some whites lived on Seventh Street. Ruth Morris: Right on the very corner from us. Catherine Morris Wilson: Right on the corner from us. Ruth Morris: We were in the middle of the block. On each corner on Seventh Street, white people lived there and down Seventh— Catherine Morris Wilson: On Caldwell Street, another street up. It was an integrated neighborhood but by the same token, we could not go to First Ward Elementary School, but we were about two blocks from there. Instead of going there, you had to go to, it was called Alexander Street School, and it was over by— Ruth Morris: Over in the bottom. Catherine Morris Wilson: Over in the bottom because they used to call it— Ruth Morris: Mosquito bottom. Catherine Morris Wilson: Mosquito bottom. Ruth Morris: It was low. Catherine Morris Wilson: It was low and it was— Ruth Morris: And it was— Catherine Morris Wilson: About how far was it from there? It must have been about eight or 10 blocks or more. And now where Central Piedmont Community College is— Now, it was not that big. It was Central High School and you had Blacks right down on Seventh Street, right at Central Piedmont but they could not go to Central— It wasn't Central Piedmont. It was Central— Ruth Morris: Central High School. Catherine Morris Wilson: — High School. Could not go to Central High School, but they were right there. But they went and we all went to Second Ward High School, which was the only Black high school in Mecklenburg County up until 1938. You see, this is why I said it was no such thing as neighborhood schools because you were right there in the door of the school, but you couldn't go there. It was because of the segregation. Kara Miles: On the block that you lived on, where did the white people live on your block? Ruth Morris: They lived on the corner, which it was the next street though over. They were on another street. Catherine Morris Wilson: And then they were on the next block. We were in the 400 block of North Davidson and you had whites in the— Ruth Morris: 500 block. Catherine Morris Wilson: — 500 block of North Davidson. And then right on the corner of North Davidson and East Seventh where we were in the middle, there were whites there. Kara Miles: Okay. Were there any neighborhoods where whites and Blacks lived house by house, side by side? Catherine Morris Wilson: I don't— Ruth Morris: Yes, because you see in those houses there— But what she's telling you about now, some Blacks live next door to them because you know the Glens— Catherine Morris Wilson: Glens, yeah. Ruth Morris: — and all them, the other side? Catherine Morris Wilson: That's only Seventh Street. Ruth Morris: Oh, that's only Seventh Street. Well, in the 500 block, Mr. Irving was up there next to those white people. Catherine Morris Wilson: [indistinct 00:10:18] white people. Yeah, she was. Ruth Morris: Yes, there were some side by side. And across the street there, you'd see— Catherine Morris Wilson: Yes, she was. Ruth Morris: — there in the 500 block. Kara Miles: Did you all have any contact with the whites that lived near you? Ruth Morris: No, we didn't really have any contact with them. Catherine Morris Wilson: Probably speaking, and that was it. Not associated. Ruth Morris: No, no association. Just speaking, because I remember Miss Owens sitting on the porch there. We'd have to pass her house and it's just speaking, just ordinarily speaking, just neighborly speaking. Her name just came to, Owens. Catherine Morris Wilson: Owens. And with the Holtons— Ruth Morris: Holtons. Will Holton. Catherine Morris Wilson: — they were the whites that lived on the corner of Seventh and North Davidson Street at that house. Ruth Morris: Yeah, Davidson. Uh—huh, and he owned most of the houses in the 400 block behind his house, across the street from us. Catherine Morris Wilson: And most of the people on the side that we lived on, Blacks owned that property. Kara Miles: Your parents owned their property. Ruth Morris: Yes. Catherine Morris Wilson: Uh—huh. Kara Miles: Did you play with the white children? Catherine Morris Wilson: No. Kara Miles: No? What did you all do for fun as kids? Catherine Morris Wilson: You made your own fun. Ruth Morris: Our picture [indistinct 00:11:45] shoes in the driveway, shooting marbles, playing Old Maids on the front porch there at the table, bringing it out. Skating, roller skating. See, there was the ball bearing skates then at that time and we skated. We had scooters. We made scooters out of— Catherine Morris Wilson: Wood. Ruth Morris: — wood after the skate had worn out, put in those wheels on the skate on the board. And then there was a time that— Remember Bessie Watkins on Eighth Street from us would have block parties and that's when the skating party and they would block off the street— Catherine Morris Wilson: Would block the street. Ruth Morris: Let them block the street off and have a skating party. Oh, we had much more fun than and same way [indistinct 00:12:34] the Valentine, Halloween. Kara Miles: Tell me about Halloween. Ruth Morris: Well this is what we would do. Have the Halloween party, so they'd invite all the children around in the neighborhood and bobbing of the apples. Catherine Morris Wilson: In the tin tub. Put the water in and put apples in. You know about that? Ruth Morris: Yes. Catherine Morris Wilson: And on the weekends mostly what we did, we would go window shopping. That was downtown. That did not look anything like it does now. And when we said window shopping, that's exactly what it was, just window wishing. Looking in the store windows. Either the bus or the street car— Ruth Morris: Street car. Catherine Morris Wilson: — street car was 7 cents to ride and you'd get on the street car and go for a ride with a group. That's what we did on Sunday. Now, a lot on Sundays too at our church, Little Rock AME Zion Church was on the corner of Myers and— Ruth Morris: Seven. Catherine Morris Wilson: — and Seven. In the afternoon, we had Fair Christian Endeavor, and children in the neighborhood, whether you belong there or not, we would all go to that. Then we would leave there and go up to— It's First United now, but it was— Ruth Morris: Seventh Street Presbyterian Church. Catherine Morris Wilson: — Seventh Street Presbyterian Church. Then we would all leave there and go up there to Young People's Meeting. Kara Miles: It sounds like church was very important. Catherine Morris Wilson: It was. Ruth Morris: It was. Catherine Morris Wilson: It was. Really, church was really it, and you didn't— Sunday school. Most Sunday school was after morning service starting say, at 1:00, and that's about where all the children and the people were at. Sunday school did all the churches. Kara Miles: Okay. Your parents went to church? Catherine Morris Wilson: Oh yes. Ruth Morris: Oh yes. You went to church— Catherine Morris Wilson: You went to church. Ruth Morris: — because they would take us to church in the mornings. We all would grow up on a seat there. Catherine Morris Wilson: And if you didn't, it was a thing that you knew, and not only just us in the neighborhood, if you didn't go to Sunday school or go to church, you didn't go anywhere that afternoon or that whole week maybe. When you got home from school, that was it. Or if it were in the summertime, if you were too sick to go to church to go to Sunday school, but then you were too sick— Ruth Morris: You were too sick, to go to work, to do anything else but to stay home. Catherine Morris Wilson: — to do anything else would stay at home and be sick. We soon find out, well, that won't work, so you went. It was easier to go— Ruth Morris: So you could be free. Catherine Morris Wilson: — so you could have your freedom. Ruth Morris: But so much freedom. That freedom was limited too. Catherine Morris Wilson: That's right. Ruth Morris: Yeah, your limited, but that was a lot of freedom for us then. Catherine Morris Wilson: Now I don't remember. You may want to talk about— Didn't Mr. Jim Davidson on a store down on— Who was that? Ruth Morris: Yeah. Oh well, see, there was the neighborhood stores. There was a store on the corner from us and there was another store on the next corner, Lawrence Market was on the next block, same block that your church was in, and you were able to have— All of these stores were run by the white man. And of course, you could run a bill there and let's see, then that was up on the next corner. Mr. Curly, up at Ninth and Davidson, that was a store. See, you had your stores all right around you. Now that store down on the corner from us, I don't remember that from the very beginning. But anyway, there were stores all around that you could buy. There wasn't anything as these— Catherine Morris Wilson: Chain— Ruth Morris: — chain stores then. Catherine Morris Wilson: — stores. Big stores. Ruth Morris: No. Kara Miles: Downtown, were there big department stores or anything? Catherine Morris Wilson: They were department stores but they weren't anything like they are now. Ruth Morris: No, nothing like they are now. Catherine Morris Wilson: Nothing like they are now. Ruth Morris: No. Catherine Morris Wilson: There was Belts and Efirds. Ruth Morris: Ivey. Catherine Morris Wilson: Ivey's. Ruth Morris: Grants— Catherine Morris Wilson: Grants. Ruth Morris: — was there. Catherine Morris Wilson: 5 & 10, the [indistinct 00:17:00]. Raley's. Ruth Morris: Yes. Kara Miles: And could Black people go in those? Ruth Morris: Yes. Catherine Morris Wilson: Yes, but they did not have— Ruth Morris: Water fountain and then— Catherine Morris Wilson: — water fountains and restrooms. Ruth Morris: — restrooms. If they had a water fountain, they had Colored up there. White, color. Same way it was with the bus station, but you were downstairs in the bus station. Everything was labeled. Catherine Morris Wilson: And if you rode the bus or the trolley— Streetcar it was called, street car, you seated from the back. Kara Miles: And what did you all think of these rules? Catherine Morris Wilson: Well, we didn't know— Ruth Morris: We didn't really know. Catherine Morris Wilson: — but this is all you knew. Ruth Morris: This was all you knew. Catherine Morris Wilson: You accepted it— Ruth Morris: And that was it. Catherine Morris Wilson: — and that was it. Kara Miles: Did anyone ever defy those rules? Did any people ever drink out of the white water fountain or— Catherine Morris Wilson: If they did, they slipped. I don't know of any. Ruth Morris: I don't know of any either. Kara Miles: The neighborhood stores, they were white owned, right? Ruth Morris: Yes. Kara Miles: Did Blacks and whites both go there to shop? Ruth Morris: Yes. Well, you see, it was mostly in the Black neighborhoods, but I guess the whites went there. I don't know, but see, there was so few whites there in the community. Kara Miles: How did the white owners act towards their Black customers? Ruth Morris: They're Fine. Catherine Morris Wilson: Fine, and you had no problems. There were no problems with that. You ran a bill, and at that time you could go to the store and get 5 cents worth of sugar, 10 cents worth of sugar, a nickels worth for this and nickels worth for that. And of course, they treated you very well because they wanted your service. Kara Miles: Did you ever hear your parents talk about their relationships with whites or incidents that had happened? Catherine Morris Wilson: Mm—hmm. No. Kara Miles: No? Catherine Morris Wilson: No. Ruth Morris: No. The only thing this was— Well, I was out working [indistinct 00:19:15] once when mom and I were in the A&P. They built the bigger stores and we had a dog and she asked the butcher for some bones for the dog. And when we got to the counter, this white lady asked, "Well Auntie, did you get your bones," and then when she said, "Auntie," that ruffled my feathers. I said, "What do you mean by Auntie?" I said, "She's Mrs. Morris. She's not your Auntie." She said, "Oh, I'm sorry. That was just a courtesy." I said, "That's not a courtesy to her." I said, "She's Mrs. Morris." And of course, that settled that. That's really the only thing I know that— Catherine Morris Wilson: But you do know that when you went downtown and you just waited, if whites came up and you were there, they were waited on first. Ruth Morris: And that sometime happens now. That happens now. Kara Miles: Did you think anything of that? I mean, did that bother you or— Ruth Morris: No— Catherine Morris Wilson: No, as you as you got older— Now and I'm not going to call the name. In our neighborhood and at Second Ward there was a family. You could not tell them from being white. And we played together. We went to school together and I never forget an experience that we had and was with some others. Went downtown to Ed Mellons. It was a big store and they saw this Black person they thought was white and we were all together but they went to her to wait on her first. And one of the other ones said, "Isn't that something?" They said, "We all together and she went to wait on her first," and she looked and she said, "Sure," or something to that effect and we said, "Well, she's Black too." Kara Miles: What did the person say to— Catherine Morris Wilson: Turned red. Ruth Morris: Because she had blonde hair. Catherine Morris Wilson: She had blonde hair. I mean— Ruth Morris: In fact, you would not know because she would go down to bus station and— Catherine Morris Wilson: They'd pass for white— Ruth Morris: In certain areas. Catherine Morris Wilson: — in certain areas. And I mean, some people frowned on it, but as I look back, if you could get what you wanted and they didn't know the difference, then more luck to you and they used it to their advantage. Kara Miles: Were people like that treated differently within the Black community, people who were really light skinned or— Catherine Morris Wilson: Well, now children are cruel and from my own experience, when we would be coming home from Second Ward, it was a little factory, not a big factory. And we got out of school about 3:00 and all the white people would be hanging out the window to see her and we would say— And as I say, children are cruel. Although we were in high school, we were still cruel. We would say, "It's your time to walk with that white girl. I'm not walking with her today," one of these kind of things and— Ruth Morris: But she didn't hear it. Catherine Morris Wilson: She didn't hear it. She would never hear it. And I'll never forget, one Sunday we left Little Rock Church going up to East Seventh Street and she was along with us and one of the fellas was walking with her and traffic stopped. White people in cars stopped because they thought she was white and here was this Black man with this white girl, and everybody's hollering, "She's Black. She's Black," because I don't know what would've happened, but she felt it. Kara Miles: She felt— Catherine Morris Wilson: A lot of times that— Brother, you said it directly, you can hear the little— But she was a very friendly person. She was one of my personal friends, but you could not tell her from white. Kara Miles: Very light people, did they get special treatments sometimes at school from teachers? Catherine Morris Wilson: No, not that we know of. Now it could have happened and I'm not saying they got special treatment or if it was something that they were capable of doing. I'd hate to label and say that they did when I don't know this for a fact. And I could never see that she got any special flavors, although her mother was a teacher and they were very prominent people in the neighborhood and by that I meant professional. But I don't know of any special treatment that they got from the schools. Kara Miles: Were there certain neighborhoods that the professionals lived in, Black professionals? Catherine Morris Wilson: No. Ruth Morris: No, Mm—mm. No, because they were [indistinct 00:24:49]. Catherine Morris Wilson: They were scattered all around. You've got First Ward, Brooklyn, and then you had— Ruth Morris: Second Ward. Catherine Morris Wilson: — Second Ward and you had Biddleville. Ruth Morris: But it seems that more were up in Biddleville. Catherine Morris Wilson: Biddleville, but in later years. Ruth Morris: Yeah, yeah, of all. Yes, later ages. Catherine Morris Wilson: That was later years there were more of them up in Biddleville. Kara Miles: Later years. What years are we— Catherine Morris Wilson: You're talking about say in the late 30s. Ruth Morris: I believe you better go to the 40s probably. Catherine Morris Wilson: Yeah, maybe the 40s. Kara Miles: Were there any neighborhoods that your parents didn't let you go to that were maybe— Catherine Morris Wilson: It may not have been neighborhoods, but there was a dividing line, that you knew that you were not allowed on Second Street. That was more or less Bourbon Street. At your age, you knew there was certain streets and most of us— Although they had what they call piccolo joints. You knew that you were not allowed. Your parents did not allow you in cafes and those kind of places and the streets that were known like Johnson Street that was out in Greenville over at Seaboard Street— Ruth Morris: And certain areas of the streets now. Catherine Morris Wilson: Areas of the streets. Ruth Morris: Yeah, certain areas. Catherine Morris Wilson: You knew that you were not allowed there. Ruth Morris: Yeah, because some parts were called what is the Red District Light. Catherine Morris Wilson: The Red Light District. Ruth Morris: Red Light District. And of course, you knew you didn't go there. As you say, that was the piccolo joint or the whiskey joints, I'll say. Catherine Morris Wilson: They sold— Ruth Morris: Liquor. Catherine Morris Wilson: Right, the bootleg liquor. That's what it was called— Ruth Morris: Bootleg, that's what it's called. Bootleg. Catherine Morris Wilson: — and you had bootleggers. Kara Miles: How old were you when you could go to a piccolo house? Catherine Morris Wilson: Well, you never went. Ruth Morris: We wouldn't. You didn't. In fact, [indistinct 00:26:47] you didn't come up with that and then when you got old enough, you didn't want to go to those. Catherine Morris Wilson: [indistinct 00:26:51]. You didn't go. Ruth Morris: You didn't want to go. Kara Miles: Did you ever sneak to any of these places you went to [indistinct 00:26:58]? Ruth Morris: No— Catherine Morris Wilson: No. Ruth Morris: — because you had no desire to really go to those places. Catherine Morris Wilson: And then another thing, you were— Ruth Morris: It was a caliber of people. Catherine Morris Wilson: People, uh—huh. And then another thing, you knew if you did— Everybody knew everybody in Charlotte and you knew if you did and somebody saw you, that was it. You didn't take those chances. Ruth Morris: Chances, no. Kara Miles: Have you all heard of an area called Blue Heaven? Catherine Morris Wilson: Yes. Ruth Morris: That's what I was trying to say, the Red Light District. Catherine Morris Wilson: Blue Heaven District. Ruth Morris: — That's what was— I couldn't— Catherine Morris Wilson: Blue Heaven was in Brooklyn. Ruth Morris: Brooklyn, yes. Brooklyn, off of McDowell Street. Catherine Morris Wilson: That was down in Boundary Street. That was Blue Heaven. Kara Miles: What can you tell me about Blue Heaven? Ruth Morris: Well— Catherine Morris Wilson: The laundry was down there. Ruth Morris: The laundry was down there. And seemed to have been a rough section. Catherine Morris Wilson: Section. Ruth Morris: You know. Catherine Morris Wilson: Most of the houses over there were shotgun houses. Ruth Morris: Shotgun house. Well, the shotgun houses were all over the city. Catherine Morris Wilson: All over the city. Ruth Morris: Shotgun houses were all over the city. Catherine Morris Wilson: Yeah, Blue Heaven. Ruth Morris: You what the shotgun houses is, don't you? Kara Miles: You said that when you would see the signs, the segregation signs or be on the street car, whatever, that you didn't really pay much attention to it. Catherine Morris Wilson: No, you didn't question it. Ruth Morris: No. Catherine Morris Wilson: You accepted it. [indistinct 00:28:20], accept it. Ruth Morris: But you just accept because that was the way of life and you knew nothing else. Catherine Morris Wilson: The first time I remember anyone, she didn't really question it, she didn't accept it, was when I was at Livingstone College and came home for Easter. My roommate came home with me, Gwendolyn Sheldron, and she was from Chicago and we had been downtown and was going to ride the bus back. And we got on the bus and I went onto the back and I thought she was behind me, but she stopped up front and the bus driver asked her to move to the back and she got off of the bus. I got off the bus too to walk home with her. That was the first time that I remember experienced anybody— Ruth Morris: But see, she was from Chicago. Catherine Morris Wilson: Of course. Kara Miles: Do you remember the first time that you were with someone who questioned this or— Ruth Morris: No, I never have been with anyone. See, this is my first time hearing that. Kara Miles: Growing up, were there any— Well, I guess maybe not. Were there any organizations, maybe political organizations or anybody who were questioning these things, like a NAACP or something? Catherine Morris Wilson: Now, I don't know when we were coming up that early about NAACP, but I know in later years my mother was very active member and recruited members for NAACP. But like I'm saying, that was later years— Ruth Morris: The later years. Catherine Morris Wilson: The later years. Kara Miles: What years? Catherine Morris Wilson: Was in the late 40s. Ruth Morris: Late 40s. Catherine Morris Wilson: Late 40s. Ruth Morris: The late 40s. Catherine Morris Wilson: The late 40s. She was very active and she thought it was a shame anybody who was not a member of the NAACP and they used to have some drives people and she used to get out on me and— Ruth Morris: Especially time for voting. They would have you— Catherine Morris Wilson: The voting, uh—huh. She would really get out to recruit people and get your membership for the NAACP. Kara Miles: But before that came along, there weren't any— Catherine Morris Wilson: Not that I know of. Ruth Morris: Not at the time. Kara Miles: What other organizations? Were there any social clubs and— Catherine Morris Wilson: Social clubs. Oh, plenty of them. Now you've got some social "clubs—" And when I say that I cannot justify this because from what I've heard and from what I've seen, it doesn't go hand in hand. They were seeing like the Bluebird Club. Kara Miles: The bluebird was— Catherine Morris Wilson: You had to have blue veins. You were Black, but you had blue veins, but I do know— Ruth Morris: It was in the paper. They organized that it was for complexions— Catherine Morris Wilson: That's right. That's why I'm saying. Ruth Morris: Quote, unquote. Catherine Morris Wilson: That's why I said "The Bluebird," and they said you had to have blue veins to be a member of that but one of the organizers had Black veins. She did not have any blue veins. Ruth Morris: Brown veins. Catherine Morris Wilson: Brown veins. Ruth Morris: Brown veins. Catherine Morris Wilson: Well anyway— Kara Miles: You meant that when you were looking at your skin, you would be able to see— Catherine Morris Wilson: You were very light, yeah. That's what they meant, very fair, but she was not. I don't know. Then you had the Swings and you had— What was this? The men— Ruth Morris: Black Cats Club. Catherine Morris Wilson: Black Cats Club. Ruth Morris: That was the men's club. Catherine Morris Wilson: That was the men's club and it dates way back. What was this one that Elsie was in? Ruth Morris: Can't think of it now. All right. There were a number of social clubs. You see, they started in school because our club started the year after I finished high school, the Modernettes Social Club and the Lapariattes. You see I learned that the other day at the funeral, that that was started for the girls in high school. Liz started that and then when they went off to school and they came back and got together again. Catherine Morris Wilson: Now the Y team was very active. Phyllis Wheatley, YWCA, was another thing that Black girls were very active in throughout the whole communities, not just one. Ruth Morris: Throughout the city. Catherine Morris Wilson: Throughout the city. And they had what we call Girl Reserves. It was an organization. Have you heard of that, The Girl Reserves? And it started from school and you were carried on over to the summer to give you something to do. And that was down on South Rhode Island. Ruth Morris: YWCA. Catherine Morris Wilson: Wasn't it on Second or First Street, Doris, and then— Ruth Morris: Let me see. I'm trying to think where it was. I know the library was there Brevard and Second. See, that's been so long. Catherine Morris Wilson: I think it was on Brevard Street, the YWCA. Ruth Morris: It was. Catherine Morris Wilson: It was on— Ruth Morris: It was on Brevard. See, that that big building. Now its coming to me. Catherine Morris Wilson: Yeah, it was on South Brevard Street, the YWCA, and it was called Phyllis Wheatley Branch of the YWCA. Kara Miles: Did you all used to go there? Catherine Morris Wilson: Yes. Ruth Morris: Mm—hmm. Kara Miles: And what did you used to do there? Ruth Morris: Well, you had the meetings of the Girl Reserve there sometimes, didn't you? Catherine Morris Wilson: Yeah. Ruth Morris: And of course, there was a boarding section there. Catherine Morris Wilson: And then another thing that people in the neighborhood that I remember is Anderson and people. You know what kind of papers that we used to have at the little clubs? The little organizations— Ruth Morris: Crepe paper. Catherine Morris Wilson: Crepe paper and make flowers and things out of that. They would gather up children, Bible storytelling time, and this is what you would make flowers, bouquets, and they were pretty. Make roses and you'd wrap that paper around the stem, that kind of stuff, or crepe paper. Ruth Morris: Yeah, those are some of the things— See, the things that we learned to do in Bible school, then we carried it over at home. On rainy days, that's what we would sit and do. Catherine Morris Wilson: Talk about Easter and Children's Day were big days because you had your Easter programs and all the children said their speeches. You'd have pageants and Easter and Children's Day. It was nothing like what it is now and you dressed up. Everybody came to see everybody all— Ruth Morris: Dressed up. Catherine Morris Wilson: — dressed up with your hair fixed and the big bows on their head and— Ruth Morris: It was so different now because children are dressed up all the time now. Same way it was at Christmas. You were glad to get anything at Christmas time, but now Christmas is every dang— Catherine Morris Wilson: You [indistinct 00:35:44] in the store [indistinct 00:35:44]. It was only fruit. It was only around Christmas time but now it's all the time. Ruth Morris: Time. I mean, there isn't any Christmas or Easter Children's Day, so to speak, anymore comparatively speaking as to what it was in yester years. Kara Miles: When was Children's Day? Catherine Morris Wilson: The second— Kara Miles: Sunday in June. Catherine Morris Wilson: — Sunday in June. And it still is. Kara Miles: And so that was were children would give speeches and— Ruth Morris: Speeches. Catherine Morris Wilson: Speeches and you'd learn speeches and you sang songs— Ruth Morris: Most of the time at Children's Day you dressed in white. Kara Miles: What was Christmas like at your house? Catherine Morris Wilson: Oh, it was a lot of fun because it was a lot of us. And you'd bake cakes. Ruth Morris: Oh yes. Catherine Morris Wilson: Starting before Christmas, the layered cakes, and everybody was trying to figure out, "Well, what are you going to get," but you didn't get that much. But what you got, you appreciated it because you hadn't gotten anything all year long. And you knew too— Like they say, you better watch out. Ruth Morris: Santy Claus, be good. Catherine Morris Wilson: Better be good because they didn't play with it. Ruth Morris: But we had beautiful Christmases. Catherine Morris Wilson: We had beautiful Christmas and most of what the children wanted when you got there were ball bearing skates. If you got ball bearing skates, you were it. Ruth Morris: And of course, now we were very fortunate that my father was working and that was one of the top paying jobs in that day and we had bicycle, skates, scooters and all. Kara Miles: I wanted to go back to the social clubs for a minute. What ones were you two in? Ruth Morris: Well, now they're still doing segregation as a member of the Modernettes. Kara Miles: And what kind of things did you all do? Ruth Morris: Well, I tell you what now.I'm trying to think. It was a game that we used to go and play meet at different members' houses but now we played pinochle. It was a game that we used to play. I don't remember what it was until we learned to play pinochle, but we enjoyed that. It was some game that you bought in a box and everybody enjoyed that and we'd serve and we'd go to the member's house and go— Catherine Morris Wilson: Was it Pokeno? Ruth Morris: Huh? It wasn't Pokeno. Catherine Morris Wilson: Now our club that I'm a charter member of was still doing the segregated times but we organized in 1948 and it was a civic and social club and we played pinochle, but we always took so much of our dues too, and at Christmas time we would take a family and then we graduated from that, that we would help children. If somebody brought in a family that a child needed clothing or something, we would allocate so much for that. But now, the club is still functional, but we just play— We met then twice a month, the first and third Saturdays and every month. But as we got older and people got married and had other responsibilities, we only meet now once a month, the third Saturday, and it's usually in the daytime now but it was at night then. And we don't do the civic pushing now like we did. Ruth Morris: And we were meeting twice a month and then we started meeting once a month at night, and of course, now we meet at 2:00 in the day on Saturdays. Catherine Morris Wilson: That's when we meet, at 2:00 on Saturdays. Ruth Morris: Our age will not detain us going out at night now. Catherine Morris Wilson: And it's so dangerous. Kara Miles: When was your— Catherine Morris Wilson: Oh, another thing that we forgot. Sunday school picnics. Ruth Morris: Oh yes. Catherine Morris Wilson: Now that— And you used to have hayrides. Moonlight hay rides. Ruth Morris: Moonlight picnics. Catherine Morris Wilson: Moonlight picnics. Ruth Morris: Moonlight picnics. Catherine Morris Wilson: Moonlight picnics. Ruth Morris: Yes. The Sunday school picnics, we would have to go out in the country and all the members of church would just turn out. Catherine Morris Wilson: Fit your basket. Ruth Morris: Basket. And even my daddy would take his vacation during that time the picnic was going to be, because he'd have one week or two weeks off of vacation and he would get his vacation around that picnic time and we would go, but see— Well, we had a car and he'd pack us all in the car because I remember one time— Kara Miles: We'd go down to Hickory Grove, wasn't it called? Out in Hickory Grove? Catherine Morris Wilson: Grove, yes, [indistinct 00:41:11]. Yeah, on Sundays we'd all pack up in the car and go down out in the country or just riding and we had a seven passenger car where the seats had folded down in the floor. Now there was so many of us, well, even with that, we used to put a board on that seat and make three seats out it instead of the two seats. And most of the time, I had to sit on that middle seat, sit on that board. Kara Miles: Would Sunday, the picnics— Catherine Morris Wilson: During the summer. Ruth Morris: During the summer. Catherine Morris Wilson: During the summer. Kara Miles: Several times? Ruth Morris: It was usually in August, the picnic, I remember, in August. Papa would take him vacation in August and that's when the picnic was. Kara Miles: Your father worked for someone else or did he— Ruth Morris: Oh yes. He worked for H C Sherrill Company that built buildings all over town and homes. Catherine Morris Wilson: And he helped to build the first courthouse, wasn't it? Ruth Morris: [indistinct 00:42:14]. See, on Sundays he would drive us around, showing us the building. In fact, the person who taught him to lay brick was Mr. Joe Benton. And those people back then, I don't think they had any white brick masons and I think most of them were Black. And he was a brick mason. Catherine Morris Wilson: But they worked for people. Ruth Morris: Yes. Yes, it was the Sherrill company. H C Sherrill Company. Kara Miles: Was that a Black company? Ruth Morris: No, no, no, no, no. No, uh—huh. Kara Miles: But he did work for— Ruth Morris: Yes. Kara Miles: — for a white— Had one more social club question. You told me about the Bluebirds and that was exclusive. Were there any other exclusive clubs? Catherine Morris Wilson: I'm trying to think of the one that Elsie was in. What was the name? White Rose. Ruth Morris: That's what it was. The White Rose. Catherine Morris Wilson: It was the White Rose Club and that was all women. And it was an old, old club and I think most of them are just about dead. Ruth Morris: I think they are. Catherine Morris Wilson: Yeah, White Rose and they used to give dances. Ruth Morris: Of course, we gave dances too. Catherine Morris Wilson: Yeah, we did too. Ruth Morris: Dances, card parties. Kara Miles: The White Rose Club, how did you become a member of that club? Catherine Morris Wilson: I really don't know— Ruth Morris: I really don't know. Catherine Morris Wilson: — how they— Because that was older women that were in that. Kara Miles: In the organizations you were in, could anyone— Ruth Morris: No, but I— Catherine Morris Wilson: When we started out with ours, our— Ruth Morris: Guidelines. Catherine Morris Wilson: — guidelines to be a member, you had to be a college graduate or equivalent. Some went to two year business schools but that was the requirement. Ruth Morris: Same way about for ours. Kara Miles: I want to go back to your family a little bit. Do you know where your parents were from? Catherine Morris Wilson: My daddy was from Hickory Grove section. That's in Mecklenburg County. And my mother was born in Lancaster, South Carolina, but her mother died when she was about six weeks old, I believe she said. And so, she was reared by people who were not really related, but it was a thing. You became a part of that family, "foster" children. But during that time, Blacks took in Blacks. That was what you call the extended family and it was true to the extended family. The one that we were just telling you about, Elsie, being in the White Rose Club, was not a bit of relation to us but her mother reared my mother. We went in as family. All through the years, we were family. Ruth Morris: Yeah, and a lot of people did not know the difference. Catherine Morris Wilson: Know that we were not related. Kara Miles: Your mother was born in Lancaster. She moved— Catherine Morris Wilson: She brought to Charlotte very early. I don't know remember what age, but very early. And I remember my mother's hair started back here and she told us what had happened, was they used to plait your hair— Kara Miles: Plait your hair and then wrap it. Catherine Morris Wilson: — and wrap it. Kara Miles: How? Wrap it— Catherine Morris Wilson: Wrap with a string to keep it and it would be so tight, it would blister all around. Her hair came out and I don't ever recall her saying specifically any mistreatment that she got. But I do know through the years, she used to say all the time, "My prayer is that I see my children grown, that God spare me to see my children grown so they won't have to go through what I went through." But we never could pinpoint what it was that she was saying. And God did spare her that because she was 92 when she died right here, living right here— Ruth Morris: In '79. Catherine Morris Wilson: And she was determined that we would have an education because she was denied that and she said it was important. Kara Miles: Do you know anything—