WEBVTT
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All right, it's rolling.
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Okay, good afternoon.
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Hello.
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We are very grateful to you
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for participating in the Witness to Guantanamo Project.
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We invite you to speak of the experiences and involvement
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with detainees who were held in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
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We are hoping to provide you an opportunity
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to tell your story in your own words.
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We are creating a archive of stories
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so that people in America
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and around the world will have a better understanding
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of what you and others have contributed and experienced.
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Future generations must know what happened at Guantanamo.
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And by telling your story, you're contributing to history.
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We appreciate your courage and willingness to speak with us.
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If any time during the interview,
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you'd like to take a break, just let us know
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and we'll take a break.
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Okay.
And if there's anything
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you said you want to retract,
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just let us know and we can remove it.
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Okay.
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And I'd like to begin
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with some basic information, such as your name.
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Okay, my name is Kristine Anne Husky.
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And your country of origin?
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I'm a U.S citizen.
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I was born here.
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I was actually born in Tacoma, Washington.
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And your birthday and age?
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August 23rd, just a couple weeks away.
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So, I keep reminding everybody.
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1967, so I'll be 43 in a couple of weeks, yeah.
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And marital status?
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I'm married.
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With children or?
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No children.
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And your current place of residence?
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Debatable (laughs).
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I spend time, most of my time in Arlington, Virginia,
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but since I am employed
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and teach at University of Texas School of Law,
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I also spend time in Austin.
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And your education?
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I went to law school at University of Texas Law School,
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and I went to undergrad at Columbia University in New York.
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And what would you call
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your current occupation?
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I am a law professor and an attorney.
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And Peter, just before you start,
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do you want to,
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the lights are kind of like a little harsh.
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So, could we put like a little bit of powder
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on her forehead?
Is it?
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Yeah, sure.
Go ahead.
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I did powder, but I guess,
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yeah, it's still.
Kristine likes
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to power herself, so.
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Oh no, that's okay. You can powder me.
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I just was, 'cause you weren't here.
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So, I had the powder myself.
Oh, I'm sorry.
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Okay. We're good to go.
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Okay, so, I'd like to begin
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by asking you how you became involved in Guantanamo
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but before you do, just a little bit
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of background is what you were doing just before.
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And what drew you into Guantanamo issues?
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Well, when I graduated from law school in '97,
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I clerked for a year
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and then came right to Shearman and Sterling.
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So, that was 1998
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and began practicing international litigation
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and arbitration, but all commercial.
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You know, my clients GE
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and you know, OPEC and, oh, actually,
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we represented the Venezuelan National Oil Company,
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this was all business business litigation.
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And I actually happened to be in New York on 9/11.
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It was in the middle of an arbitration
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and the arbitration was actually taking place
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in the Waldorf.
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I know.
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Sort of where, you know, we were all,
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of course, staying you know?
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So, I was there on 9/11, you know, that morning.
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And you know, you could see the smoke, you could feel,
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you know, everything that was going on in the city and,
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you know, it was really incredible.
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But so then of course, you know, a few days later,
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we all came back to Washington and sort of,
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You stayed in New York?
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Yeah, actually, part of the reason was because,
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you know, everything was shut down.
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And so it took some time to sort of, you know, figure out
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if we were going to, I know, this is how sick,
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you know, the practice of commercial law can be.
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We were trying to figure out whether we should keep going on
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with the arbitration (laughs), or stop.
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So, we decided, yes, maybe we should stop.
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But you know, a couple of days, took a couple of days.
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We took the train back to DC.
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And, you know, I pretty much sort of got back on,
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you know, with my life,
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here in, you know, my fancy office
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and commercial litigation and working until 10:00 PM.
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And then Tom Wilner,
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who I believe you've interviewed,
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calls me in the office one day
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and I'd worked with him before on the OPEC matter.
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And he basically says,
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"You know, I got this sort of strange request."
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And I said, "Oh," you know,
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it was like, "Okay, tell me about it."
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Well, and he said, these Kuwaiti families approached him
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through a contact in the U.S.
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I think it was, might've been a U.S. lawyer.
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And they were looking for help
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and so this is about six months later,
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six months after 9/11.
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They're looking for help.
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And they thought that their sons might be at Guantanamo
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but they weren't really sure.
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And I just sort of, you know, I remember just being
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in his office that day and this is sort of, you know,
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we really didn't know anything
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and they were trying to sort of,
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they just wanted some Washington law firm,
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Washington lawyer to do an investigation, to ask questions.
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So, it had to be somebody who had sort of connections.
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And since Tom has been practicing here for 35 years,
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that was a, you know, a good fit.
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And since he'd worked with me and we worked well together,
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he asked me if I wanted to work on this investigation
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and, you know, we sort of talked about it.
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And then, he said, you know,
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"It could involve some aspect of criminal law."
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Like if they get charged for crimes.
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And I said, "Oh, we're not criminal lawyers.
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"We'll just, you know, we'll just pass it
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"on to somebody else at that point."
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Right?
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So we're just gonna, you know,
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we're just going to do the investigation.
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I'm very adventurous.
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And I think Tom might've said,
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"Oh, it could involve a trip to Kuwait."
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So I said, "I'm in.
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"Count me in." Because I love traveling.
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So, it really sort of,
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that's how it sort of started was just this,
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"Oh, you're just going to,
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"we're just going to ask some questions.
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"We're going to talk to our contacts at DOJ"
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and, you know, sort of try to figure out what's going on.
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Well, you know, eight years later.
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But so, we started asking questions around and basically,
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you know, sort of got shut down.
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I mean, people at DOJ were,
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people at State that we knew just said,
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"Don't ask any questions.
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"If it involves Guantanamo,
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"you're never gonna learn anything."
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Around the same time we started asking questions,
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we also took the trip to Kuwait
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and met with the families and,
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you know, learned more about what they knew
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which was basically that their sons had gone separately.
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I mean, they didn't know each other
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before this all happened.
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So, they had gone separately either to Afghanistan
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or Iran or some other, you know,
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nearby country to do humanitarian aid, right?
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And that they had basically been
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in contact with their family, each of them.
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And they'd all gone at different times.
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One son had gone a year ago.
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One son had gone, you know, after the U.S.,
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you know, invaded, or,
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you know, went into Afghanistan.
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Many had gone before 9/11
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because there was a lot of unrest
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and refugees going back and forth across the border.
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I think most, a lot of people don't realize is
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that Afghanistan was in a major conflict.
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You know, it was a war zone before we even got there
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because I had, I'm jumping ahead a little bit,
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but I had a lot of my lawyer friends ask me,
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"Well, what were your clients doing in Afghanistan anyways?
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"Like why would they go there if not to be terrorists?"
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You know?
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And I said, you know, there was,
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they were there to do humanitarian aid
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because there was a conflict going on
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before the US. even got there.
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And they were like, you know, "Who goes to a war zone?"
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Well, I reminded them that when I was younger,
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I actually went to Angola in the middle
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of a war when I was 17 or 18
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and lived there for two years in the, I mean,
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it was the height of the civil war.
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And I certainly wasn't a terrorist.
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So, you know, my friends who were lawyers were like
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you know, "What were they doing in Afghanistan?"
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You know, "Who does that? Who goes to a war zone?"
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And I said, well, you know, I guess most Americans don't,
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you know, so we sort of learned all this.
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And then we learned
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that they had families had lost contact with their sons.
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And they had tried
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to coordinate with the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait City.
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And they got sort of, you know, a little bit into it
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and somebody, not even the ambassador, you know,
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somebody on staff met with them and said,
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you know, 'Well, we really can't tell you anything.
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"We can't confirm anything."
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You know, "We understand you're concerned,
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"this, that and the other, but we really,
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"we really can't tell you anything."
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And so, they really pushed in their own government
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and got their own government,
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somebody in the foreign ministry to push on the U.S. and,
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you know, fortunately the Kuwaiti government was very open
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with their own citizens and were very forthcoming in,
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at least as far as I know (laughs),
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you never know what happens.
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Very forthcoming in the information that they were getting.
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And what astounded me though, was the fact
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that the Kuwait foreign ministry wasn't even
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getting that much information.
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I mean, at some point, I'd say April of 2002,
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the information they got was, yes, we have, you know,
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these six citizens.
234
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They named them.
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They gave their date of birth.
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And that was basically it.
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They didn't say, "This is why we picked them up.
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"This is what we're going to do with him.
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"These are our plans."
240
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It was just confirming who they were holding.
241
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And so, the Kuwait foreign ministry then sent
242
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that information on to the families.
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And so, basically with that information,
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that's when we decided, since we weren't getting anywhere
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with the U.S. government, we would file a suit.
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And, you know, sort of
247
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between March when we were first approached
248
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to about June or May,
249
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May or June, is we did some, you know,
250
00:10:31.020 --> 00:10:33.070 line:15%
research, trying to make contact here,
251
00:10:33.070 --> 00:10:35.620 line:15%
trying to figure out what was going on.
252
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Nobody would talk to us.
253
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We went to Kuwait. We got a little bit information.
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And then, you know, I really,
255
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you know, and this was 2002,
256
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so it was like I'd been practicing
257
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for four years, five years.
258
00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:54.480 line:15%
I really sort of got the essence of why some,
259
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why sometimes people have to sue
260
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because it was the actual filing the suit
261
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that forced the government to come forward.
262
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They had to answer it.
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And I thought, if we don't do anything,
264
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nothing's going to happen.
265
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If we don't file a suit, if we don't sue the government,
266
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they're just going to keep saying, you know,
267
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"Oh we're not going to tell you anything.
268
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"Not just you, we're not going
269
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"to tell the families anything."
270
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So it was real, it was sort of empowering as a lawyer.
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And it made me also realize how vulnerable a lot
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of people must feel without, you know,
273
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if they don't know a lawyer or don't have that ability
274
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or get the run around by the government
275
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and can't, you know, do anything about it.
276
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So it was a huge sort of realization for me.
277
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So we filed suit in May or June.
278
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Was it really that empowering?
279
00:11:48.350 --> 00:11:53.350 line:15%
Or if you got all this pushback from the courts themselves
280
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as well as from other people?
281
00:11:56.350 --> 00:11:59.150 line:15%
I'd say it was personally empowering.
282
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It was not empowering for the case (laughs).
283
00:12:02.640 --> 00:12:06.110 line:15%
It was more of just a like, oh, you know, I guess
284
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because maybe before that, a lot of the work
285
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that I had done, you're such a,
286
00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:12.990 line:15%
you feel sort of like a small piece
287
00:12:12.990 --> 00:12:15.810 line:15%
in this huge, you know, multi-million dollar litigation
288
00:12:15.810 --> 00:12:18.020 line:15%
that's been going on forever.
289
00:12:18.020 --> 00:12:22.620 line:15%
And, you know, a lot of the cases in big law firms,
290
00:12:22.620 --> 00:12:25.370 line:15%
you come in as an associate, you work on some piece,
291
00:12:25.370 --> 00:12:27.460 line:15%
and it just keeps going on even after you leave.
292
00:12:27.460 --> 00:12:29.690 line:15%
And then some other associate takes your, you know?
293
00:12:29.690 --> 00:12:31.957 line:15%
And so it's almost, in some ways,
294
00:12:31.957 --> 00:12:35.340 line:15%
you often don't necessarily feel like a lawyer, you know?
295
00:12:35.340 --> 00:12:36.907 line:15%
'Cause you just, you're just a sort of,
296
00:12:36.907 --> 00:12:37.987 line:15%
"Oh, I just wrote that memo.
297
00:12:37.987 --> 00:12:39.610 line:15%
"I just wrote that portion of the brief."
298
00:12:39.610 --> 00:12:44.570 line:15%
And so with the Guantanamo, I guess, because I, you know,
299
00:12:44.570 --> 00:12:47.100 line:15%
maybe because I was in New York on 9/11
300
00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:49.830 line:15%
and then I, you know, was in Washington,
301
00:12:49.830 --> 00:12:52.480 line:15%
you know, when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan.
302
00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:55.210 line:15%
And then I went to Kuwait and met the families who,
303
00:12:55.210 --> 00:12:57.980 line:15%
you know, told me about their sons and said,
304
00:12:57.980 --> 00:12:59.217 line:15%
you know, "This is who this person is."
305
00:12:59.217 --> 00:13:02.560 line:15%
And I saw pictures and, you know, and then I came back
306
00:13:02.560 --> 00:13:05.580 line:15%
and we filed a suit on behalf of these people.
307
00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:10.580 line:15%
So, it was like the progression of going from,
308
00:13:10.747 --> 00:13:11.720 line:15%
you know, a terrible event
309
00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:14.340 line:15%
to these vulnerable people
310
00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:16.510 line:15%
who just wanted to find out anything
311
00:13:16.510 --> 00:13:19.970 line:15%
to being able to write up the document
312
00:13:19.970 --> 00:13:22.110 line:15%
and file it in court.
313
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You know what I mean?
314
00:13:23.008 --> 00:13:23.841 line:15%
Totally.
315
00:13:23.841 --> 00:13:26.067 line:15%
That, so, whereas I hadn't had that feeling
316
00:13:26.067 --> 00:13:28.290 line:15%
in the work that I'd been doing
317
00:13:28.290 --> 00:13:30.170 line:15%
at Shearman and Sterling, because, you know,
318
00:13:30.170 --> 00:13:33.460 line:15%
it's because the work is always, the cases are so big.
319
00:13:33.460 --> 00:13:35.670 line:15%
And they go on, they started long before you,
320
00:13:35.670 --> 00:13:36.680 line:15%
you know, some of the cases started
321
00:13:36.680 --> 00:13:37.513 line:15%
when I was in law school.
322
00:13:37.513 --> 00:13:40.368 line:15%
So, you know.
And how did you,
323
00:13:40.368 --> 00:13:43.880 line:15%
did you get any reaction from friends or from other members
324
00:13:43.880 --> 00:13:45.620 line:15%
in the firm or anything in terms of?
325
00:13:45.620 --> 00:13:48.790 line:15%
Yeah.
Okay. Oh yeah.
326
00:13:48.790 --> 00:13:50.790 line:15%
Well, so first of all, within the firm,
327
00:13:50.790 --> 00:13:53.840 line:15%
and I really credit, you know, Tom for,
328
00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:55.410 line:15%
you know, we come back from Kuwait
329
00:13:55.410 --> 00:13:56.490 line:15%
and we've met all the families,
330
00:13:56.490 --> 00:14:01.490 line:15%
and we've done all this due diligence and we file the suit,
331
00:14:01.550 --> 00:14:03.070 line:15%
I think we had filed the suit
332
00:14:03.070 --> 00:14:05.400 line:15%
or maybe it was right before we were going to file a suit.
333
00:14:05.400 --> 00:14:10.160 line:15%
And Tom got a lot of pushback from his other partners here.
334
00:14:10.160 --> 00:14:13.520 line:15%
And, you know, he said, "This is the right thing to do."
335
00:14:13.520 --> 00:14:14.650 line:15%
It's really, you know, for me,
336
00:14:14.650 --> 00:14:15.850 line:15%
it was a huge lesson
337
00:14:15.850 --> 00:14:18.020 line:15%
because at that time, I was still a developing lawyer.
338
00:14:18.020 --> 00:14:19.490 line:15%
I was looking all around
339
00:14:19.490 --> 00:14:21.150 line:15%
and seeing how different people were,
340
00:14:21.150 --> 00:14:23.230 line:15%
you know, practicing law, being lawyers.
341
00:14:23.230 --> 00:14:24.947 line:15%
And Tom just said, "This is, you know
342
00:14:24.947 --> 00:14:28.177 line:15%
"this is the right thing to do to represent these people
343
00:14:28.177 --> 00:14:33.177 line:15%
"and to, you know, file a sort of due process complaint
344
00:14:33.597 --> 00:14:37.060 line:15%
"against the U.S. government," and the partners,
345
00:14:37.060 --> 00:14:39.010 line:15%
especially in New York, thought that it would lead
346
00:14:39.010 --> 00:14:42.200 line:15%
to the loss of business that some of our clients who are,
347
00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:43.410 line:15%
you know, based in New York
348
00:14:43.410 --> 00:14:47.910 line:15%
like Merrill Lynch and Citibank would be so upset
349
00:14:47.910 --> 00:14:49.320 line:15%
by it that they would leave us.
350
00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:52.087 line:15%
And Tom said, you know,
351
00:14:52.087 --> 00:14:54.467 line:15%
"You're going to have to fire me
352
00:14:54.467 --> 00:14:56.430 line:15%
"if you want me to drop the case."
353
00:14:56.430 --> 00:14:58.857 line:15%
And so, he obviously won that battle (laughs),
354
00:15:00.130 --> 00:15:02.782 line:15%
but it was, you know, he really put himself out there.
355
00:15:02.782 --> 00:15:07.410 line:15%
So, within the firm, you know, especially in New York,
356
00:15:07.410 --> 00:15:09.000 line:15%
not a whole lot of people liked us doing it.
357
00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:12.481 line:15%
But in DC, the DC office was very supportive actually.
358
00:15:12.481 --> 00:15:13.410 line:15%
What about toward you?
359
00:15:13.410 --> 00:15:15.670 line:15%
Did you get any personal?
360
00:15:15.670 --> 00:15:17.630 line:15%
So, people in the firm were very supportive
361
00:15:17.630 --> 00:15:19.860 line:15%
and certainly towards me, you know,
362
00:15:19.860 --> 00:15:22.220 line:15%
I think there was even, certainly,
363
00:15:22.220 --> 00:15:25.120 line:15%
by the younger associates, like a little bit of envy
364
00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:26.770 line:15%
because it was such an interesting case, you know,
365
00:15:26.770 --> 00:15:30.010 line:15%
and by now Guantanamo's becoming a little bit more known
366
00:15:30.010 --> 00:15:33.000 line:15%
in the papers, but I'll tell you, it was, I mean,
367
00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:34.953 line:15%
some of the conversations that I had, that we had,
368
00:15:34.953 --> 00:15:38.924 line:15%
that Tom and I had with other lawyers, because, you know,
369
00:15:38.924 --> 00:15:41.010 line:15%
it was still, we were still doing all this investigation,
370
00:15:41.010 --> 00:15:43.040 line:15%
trying to learn stuff about Guantanamo.
371
00:15:43.040 --> 00:15:44.840 line:15%
Who's, you know, who's the right person to call,
372
00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:45.863 line:15%
contact, all that.
373
00:15:47.430 --> 00:15:51.370 line:15%
And then my own friends who I went to law school with,
374
00:15:51.370 --> 00:15:54.970 line:15%
you know, really gave me a lot of grief
375
00:15:54.970 --> 00:15:57.800 line:15%
and they sort of now are sort of a little chagrined
376
00:15:57.800 --> 00:15:59.530 line:15%
by the fact that I put that in my book, you know,
377
00:15:59.530 --> 00:16:01.610 line:15%
and years later, when all this stuff has come out,
378
00:16:01.610 --> 00:16:03.630 line:15%
they're like, "Why do you have to tell everybody that?"
379
00:16:03.630 --> 00:16:07.390 line:15%
No, but the truth is, is they were, you know, they, I mean,
380
00:16:07.390 --> 00:16:08.450 line:15%
I remember this very clear,
381
00:16:08.450 --> 00:16:12.950 line:15%
we're having margaritas at this tex mex restaurant in DC.
382
00:16:12.950 --> 00:16:15.777 line:15%
And they said, "Why are you representing terrorists?
383
00:16:15.777 --> 00:16:17.430 line:15%
"You know, those people."
384
00:16:17.430 --> 00:16:22.420 line:15%
And so in their minds, and like in the minds of most people
385
00:16:22.420 --> 00:16:27.130 line:15%
in America were basically like 9/11 just happened.
386
00:16:27.130 --> 00:16:28.540 line:15%
You're now representing the people
387
00:16:28.540 --> 00:16:30.040 line:15%
who caused that to happen.
388
00:16:30.040 --> 00:16:32.430 line:15%
But, you know, and I was sort of surprised
389
00:16:32.430 --> 00:16:34.127 line:15%
because I'm thinking, "Okay.
390
00:16:34.127 --> 00:16:35.467 line:15%
"I understand when the rest
391
00:16:35.467 --> 00:16:37.387 line:15%
"of the United States like makes that,
392
00:16:37.387 --> 00:16:38.497 line:15%
"tries to make that connection
393
00:16:38.497 --> 00:16:39.847 line:15%
"but you're a lawyer.
394
00:16:39.847 --> 00:16:42.260 line:15%
"We went to law school together," you know?
395
00:16:42.260 --> 00:16:44.420 line:15%
This person, you know, first of all,
396
00:16:44.420 --> 00:16:47.900 line:15%
everyone who actually did 9/11 is dead because, you know,
397
00:16:47.900 --> 00:16:49.070 line:15%
they died, you know?
398
00:16:49.070 --> 00:16:51.530 line:15%
So, I mean, it was just incredible.
399
00:16:51.530 --> 00:16:53.217 line:15%
I said, you know, "They're entitled
400
00:16:53.217 --> 00:16:58.217 line:15%
"to some sort of hearing to determine, you know
401
00:16:58.357 --> 00:17:00.630 line:15%
"what their connection is, if any."
402
00:17:00.630 --> 00:17:02.777 line:15%
And then, you know, then they said like most people,
403
00:17:02.777 --> 00:17:04.067 line:15%
"Well, they were, you know,
404
00:17:04.067 --> 00:17:05.587 line:15%
"they were fighting in Afghanistan.
405
00:17:05.587 --> 00:17:07.710 line:15%
"They were on the battlefield" because that's what
406
00:17:07.710 --> 00:17:10.330 line:15%
the U.S. government was telling everybody.
407
00:17:10.330 --> 00:17:11.760 line:15%
Well, you know, of course years later,
408
00:17:11.760 --> 00:17:13.540 line:15%
it turns out a lot of people weren't even
409
00:17:13.540 --> 00:17:15.450 line:15%
on the battlefield or had weapons in their hands.
410
00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:17.660 line:15%
So, you know, it was just so interesting to me
411
00:17:17.660 --> 00:17:21.690 line:15%
that lawyers would say,
412
00:17:21.690 --> 00:17:22.523 line:15%
that they would say,
413
00:17:22.523 --> 00:17:24.007 line:15%
"Oh, well, this is what the government is telling us.
414
00:17:24.007 --> 00:17:25.350 line:15%
"So, that's what we should believe."
415
00:17:25.350 --> 00:17:27.300 line:15%
You know, they're on the battlefield, they're terrorists.
416
00:17:27.300 --> 00:17:28.400 line:15%
Why are you repping? You know?
417
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.440 line:15%
And then I also sort of thought, well,
418
00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:33.190 line:15%
even if they are all of that,
419
00:17:33.190 --> 00:17:36.790 line:15%
why don't they deserve representation of some sort?
420
00:17:36.790 --> 00:17:39.190 line:15%
Why don't they deserve some, you know,
421
00:17:39.190 --> 00:17:40.910 line:15%
hearing or something, you know?
422
00:17:40.910 --> 00:17:43.360 line:15%
I mean, so it was really incredible.
423
00:17:43.360 --> 00:17:46.400 line:15%
And some people, I remember one guy, not a lawyer,
424
00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:48.950 line:15%
I had this party on July 4th,
425
00:17:48.950 --> 00:17:49.940 line:15%
because from my balcony,
426
00:17:49.940 --> 00:17:52.230 line:15%
you can see the fireworks off the mall.
427
00:17:52.230 --> 00:17:54.630 line:15%
And so here it's July 4th, you know,
428
00:17:54.630 --> 00:17:57.850 line:15%
the Liberty of America and all this freedom.
429
00:17:57.850 --> 00:17:59.623 line:15%
And this guy says to me,
430
00:18:00.783 --> 00:18:04.917 line:15%
I said, "You can't just detain people and not, you know,
431
00:18:04.917 --> 00:18:06.827 line:15%
"without some sort of due process
432
00:18:06.827 --> 00:18:09.190 line:15%
"or without giving them some sort of hearing."
433
00:18:09.190 --> 00:18:11.357 line:15%
And the guy says, "Well, you know,
434
00:18:11.357 --> 00:18:14.140 line:15%
"sure you can, we've, you know, we've done that before."
435
00:18:14.140 --> 00:18:15.747 line:15%
And I said, "Are you talking
436
00:18:15.747 --> 00:18:18.860 line:15%
"about the internment of Japanese Americans?"
437
00:18:18.860 --> 00:18:19.705 line:15%
And he's like, "Yeah.
438
00:18:19.705 --> 00:18:20.880 line:15%
"You know, we detained them during the war."
439
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:23.677 line:15%
And I said, "Yeah, but we, that was wrong."
440
00:18:25.384 --> 00:18:28.280 line:15%
I mean, I just went so shocked that, you know,
441
00:18:28.280 --> 00:18:30.220 line:15%
that was sort of the, you know, it's,
442
00:18:30.220 --> 00:18:32.890 line:15%
you know, when it's a war, it's just okay to do anything,
443
00:18:32.890 --> 00:18:34.660 line:15%
you know, that you could just run all over people
444
00:18:34.660 --> 00:18:36.670 line:15%
and detain people, even if they're, you know,
445
00:18:36.670 --> 00:18:38.180 line:15%
they have families and all that sort of stuff.
446
00:18:38.180 --> 00:18:41.510 line:15%
So, yeah.
Was your life changing?
447
00:18:41.510 --> 00:18:43.363 line:15%
I mean, was something going on?
448
00:18:43.363 --> 00:18:45.030 line:15%
Were you seeing the world differently
449
00:18:45.030 --> 00:18:48.133 line:15%
when you were, had to defend this position, or is this?
450
00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:53.280 line:15%
You know, I don't think there was something going on
451
00:18:53.280 --> 00:18:56.230 line:15%
with me, but I mean, I think I've been very fortunate
452
00:18:57.228 --> 00:19:00.960 line:15%
to have had a very diverse background.
453
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:02.360 line:15%
You know, I grew up in Alaska.
454
00:19:02.360 --> 00:19:06.010 line:15%
I lived in Saudi Arabia when I was a teenager.
455
00:19:06.010 --> 00:19:09.690 line:15%
I traveled a lot because my parents lived overseas
456
00:19:09.690 --> 00:19:11.950 line:15%
and we had to, my sister and I had to go
457
00:19:11.950 --> 00:19:12.850 line:15%
to a boarding school in the U.S.
458
00:19:12.850 --> 00:19:15.413 line:15%
And, you know, I lived in Angola.
459
00:19:16.717 --> 00:19:18.563 line:15%
So, I don't know.
460
00:19:18.563 --> 00:19:21.160 line:15%
I think that really gave me a lot
461
00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:24.300 line:15%
of different perspectives
462
00:19:24.300 --> 00:19:26.767 line:15%
that maybe a lot of Americans don't have.
463
00:19:26.767 --> 00:19:29.100 line:15%
And you know, I'm not saying that I'm unique
464
00:19:29.100 --> 00:19:30.800 line:15%
but I guess I think that, you know,
465
00:19:30.800 --> 00:19:34.950 line:15%
that really helped me see, you know,
466
00:19:34.950 --> 00:19:36.930 line:15%
that everything's not so black and white, you know,
467
00:19:36.930 --> 00:19:39.750 line:15%
it's, I don't know.
468
00:19:39.750 --> 00:19:42.790 line:15%
I guess that's the best way to sort of say it.
469
00:19:42.790 --> 00:19:44.490 line:15%
And I think, you know, quite honestly,
470
00:19:44.490 --> 00:19:45.690 line:15%
that there was a lot of,
471
00:19:47.430 --> 00:19:49.170 line:15%
it's interesting, in the beginning, especially,
472
00:19:49.170 --> 00:19:51.650 line:15%
when I would have sort of conversations about the work
473
00:19:51.650 --> 00:19:54.460 line:15%
that I was doing, and it was just starting, it was 2002.
474
00:19:54.460 --> 00:19:58.560 line:15%
So, we're talking summer of 2002, fall of 2002,
475
00:19:58.560 --> 00:20:00.180 line:15%
even into 2003.
476
00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:04.530 line:15%
And I noticed that the people who pushed back the most
477
00:20:04.530 --> 00:20:05.713 line:15%
versus the people who said,
478
00:20:05.713 --> 00:20:07.557 line:15%
"Oh, you know, that's sort of interesting, you know?
479
00:20:07.557 --> 00:20:09.790 line:15%
"Wow. Yeah, I guess they do deserve a hearing."
480
00:20:09.790 --> 00:20:12.720 line:15%
There was a, and even Tom agreed with me,
481
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:14.020 line:15%
there was a little bit of a divide
482
00:20:14.020 --> 00:20:18.150 line:15%
between Caucasians and ethnic people
483
00:20:18.150 --> 00:20:21.107 line:15%
and you know, particularly Black people.
484
00:20:21.107 --> 00:20:25.510 line:15%
And I honestly think that's because, you know,
485
00:20:25.510 --> 00:20:30.510 line:15%
certainly in my circle of friends as a lawyer, you,
486
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:32.500 line:15%
I think especially if you're white,
487
00:20:32.500 --> 00:20:35.890 line:15%
you've probably had more advantages than most,
488
00:20:35.890 --> 00:20:38.660 line:15%
and you trust more, you know?
489
00:20:38.660 --> 00:20:40.520 line:15%
And you've never been accused of doing something
490
00:20:40.520 --> 00:20:42.090 line:15%
that you really didn't do.
491
00:20:42.090 --> 00:20:46.850 line:15%
Whereas, you know, when you're, I think a minority,
492
00:20:46.850 --> 00:20:48.580 line:15%
there's a little less trust,
493
00:20:48.580 --> 00:20:51.580 line:15%
there's the ability to sort of see that the,
494
00:20:51.580 --> 00:20:53.590 line:15%
you know, that the authority is not always right.
495
00:20:53.590 --> 00:20:55.840 line:15%
And that, you know, sometimes as a minority,
496
00:20:55.840 --> 00:20:58.840 line:15%
you're just vulnerable just because you're a minority.
497
00:20:58.840 --> 00:21:02.333 line:15%
So, I definitely, you know, Tom and I both saw that divide.
498
00:21:03.450 --> 00:21:06.453 line:15%
So, it was very interesting.
499
00:21:06.453 --> 00:21:08.330 line:15%
Has there, I wanted to bring
500
00:21:08.330 --> 00:21:11.060 line:15%
this up later on, but I was just thinking as you're talking,
501
00:21:11.060 --> 00:21:13.230 line:15%
as a woman or a woman of color
502
00:21:13.230 --> 00:21:16.420 line:15%
when you met the Kuwaitis, was that an issue at all?
503
00:21:16.420 --> 00:21:18.730 line:15%
Did they treat you differently
504
00:21:18.730 --> 00:21:20.280 line:15%
than they treated Tom because?
505
00:21:20.280 --> 00:21:22.330 line:15%
Oh, well, yeah (laughs).
506
00:21:22.330 --> 00:21:26.180 line:15%
But, well, two different parts here.
507
00:21:26.180 --> 00:21:28.733 line:15%
One, well, I should say as background is to,
508
00:21:30.410 --> 00:21:32.312 line:15%
as I mentioned I lived in Saudi Arabia,
509
00:21:32.312 --> 00:21:35.260 line:15%
when I was growing up in Alaska, my dad changed jobs.
510
00:21:35.260 --> 00:21:37.990 line:15%
So, we moved to Saudi Arabia when I was 13.
511
00:21:37.990 --> 00:21:39.600 line:15%
And that was my first, you know,
512
00:21:39.600 --> 00:21:41.500 line:15%
I'd lived in Alaska my whole life.
513
00:21:41.500 --> 00:21:45.590 line:15%
And so, that was really my first sort of, you know,
514
00:21:45.590 --> 00:21:47.530 line:15%
living in a very, I mean, to go from Alaska
515
00:21:47.530 --> 00:21:50.120 line:15%
to Saudi Arabia, it was like, you know, night and day.
516
00:21:50.120 --> 00:21:52.240 line:15%
I'd never been to the Middle East.
517
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:54.910 line:15%
I'd never, I never knew any Middle Easterners,
518
00:21:54.910 --> 00:21:56.760 line:15%
never really knew any Arabs or Muslims.
519
00:21:56.760 --> 00:21:59.720 line:15%
And so, that was, and Saudi is a very conservative country.
520
00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:01.823 line:15%
So, it was like, "Whoa," you know?
521
00:22:03.670 --> 00:22:06.210 line:15%
So, before we went to Kuwait to meet the families,
522
00:22:06.210 --> 00:22:08.880 line:15%
I was very prepared.
523
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:09.713 line:15%
You know?
524
00:22:09.713 --> 00:22:11.260 line:15%
I knew all, you know, I knew exactly,
525
00:22:11.260 --> 00:22:12.860 line:15%
you know, the dress, the clothes to bring.
526
00:22:12.860 --> 00:22:13.760 line:15%
I mean, that's huge.
527
00:22:13.760 --> 00:22:15.610 line:15%
You have to bring the right clothes.
528
00:22:15.610 --> 00:22:18.480 line:15%
Otherwise, you're going to be offensive.
529
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:20.140 line:15%
You know, I felt almost like, well,
530
00:22:20.140 --> 00:22:22.530 line:15%
I'm already offensive because I'm female (laughs).
531
00:22:22.530 --> 00:22:23.750 line:15%
So, you know, I have to bring the right.
532
00:22:23.750 --> 00:22:25.670 line:15%
So, I brought all the right clothes and I also,
533
00:22:25.670 --> 00:22:27.260 line:15%
but I also learned as I was
534
00:22:27.260 --> 00:22:30.770 line:15%
in Kuwait meeting the families that, you know,
535
00:22:30.770 --> 00:22:34.110 line:15%
Kuwait is a little, is more progressive than Saudi.
536
00:22:34.110 --> 00:22:35.720 line:15%
They're just more progressive.
537
00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:37.670 line:15%
They're not as conservative
538
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:42.990 line:15%
but interestingly enough, you know, before I went,
539
00:22:42.990 --> 00:22:44.430 line:15%
you know, they reminded me,
540
00:22:44.430 --> 00:22:46.260 line:15%
you know, don't be offended
541
00:22:46.260 --> 00:22:48.930 line:15%
if the men do not shake your hand.
542
00:22:48.930 --> 00:22:51.820 line:15%
'Cause here in the Washington world of business, it's all,
543
00:22:51.820 --> 00:22:54.317 line:15%
you know, you meet, "Oh, hi, nice to meet you.
544
00:22:54.317 --> 00:22:55.390 line:15%
"Here's my business card."
545
00:22:55.390 --> 00:22:57.030 line:15%
You know, it's very.
546
00:22:57.030 --> 00:23:00.238 line:15%
But so, you know, I tried to be,
547
00:23:00.238 --> 00:23:02.960 line:15%
you know, sort of more demure and Tom says
548
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:07.397 line:15%
that's never possible with me, but a little more, you know,
549
00:23:08.540 --> 00:23:11.150 line:15%
quiet if that's the best way to say it.
550
00:23:11.150 --> 00:23:13.690 line:15%
And when I first started meeting
551
00:23:13.690 --> 00:23:15.980 line:15%
with the families and when I say family,
552
00:23:15.980 --> 00:23:17.620 line:15%
what I mean when we met the families,
553
00:23:17.620 --> 00:23:18.960 line:15%
I'm talking about the men.
554
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:20.890 line:15%
I never met any of the women, you know?
555
00:23:20.890 --> 00:23:23.180 line:15%
They never came to any of the meetings or anything
556
00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:24.210 line:15%
and that's not a judgment.
557
00:23:24.210 --> 00:23:27.293 line:15%
That's just, that's just how it is in, you know,
558
00:23:28.300 --> 00:23:29.730 line:15%
those kinds of countries.
559
00:23:29.730 --> 00:23:31.537 line:15%
And so I-
You never met the mothers?
560
00:23:31.537 --> 00:23:32.370 line:15%
Nope.
561
00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:34.233 line:15%
Yeah, no.
562
00:23:35.100 --> 00:23:37.960 line:15%
Never met the mothers. It was all, you know, the men.
563
00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:40.530 line:15%
So, I mean, I will always remember the first meeting,
564
00:23:40.530 --> 00:23:45.530 line:15%
you know, it was Tom and there was a Kuwaiti lawyer there
565
00:23:46.163 --> 00:23:48.020 line:15%
and another American lawyer
566
00:23:48.020 --> 00:23:51.610 line:15%
who was sort of the guy who sort of connected us all.
567
00:23:51.610 --> 00:23:52.640 line:15%
So, three male lawyers,
568
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.650 line:15%
and they were probably all over 55 or 60.
569
00:23:55.650 --> 00:23:58.010 line:15%
And then, you know, me, and then we walk
570
00:23:58.010 --> 00:24:00.510 line:15%
into this conference room at the Sheraton in Kuwait City
571
00:24:00.510 --> 00:24:03.610 line:15%
and it's one of these sort of square tables
572
00:24:03.610 --> 00:24:05.740 line:15%
and it's completely filled.
573
00:24:05.740 --> 00:24:08.900 line:15%
And it's all men, Kuwaiti men,
574
00:24:08.900 --> 00:24:11.600 line:15%
in their white thawbs with the gotras, you know,
575
00:24:11.600 --> 00:24:14.580 line:15%
and the gotra is the, I think, it's the headband
576
00:24:14.580 --> 00:24:16.927 line:15%
but in their red and, you know, white scarfs,
577
00:24:18.380 --> 00:24:20.810 line:15%
you know, and I just felt, I don't know.
578
00:24:20.810 --> 00:24:24.093 line:15%
You know, I guess part of me felt very,
579
00:24:24.093 --> 00:24:26.650 line:15%
you know, conspicuous, which of course I was,
580
00:24:26.650 --> 00:24:27.710 line:15%
but at the same time,
581
00:24:27.710 --> 00:24:32.500 line:15%
I guess I was sort of used to being, you know,
582
00:24:32.500 --> 00:24:35.890 line:15%
maybe always, you know, in odd situations and,
583
00:24:35.890 --> 00:24:38.810 line:15%
you know, so it was sort of like, okay, well,
584
00:24:38.810 --> 00:24:41.160 line:15%
you know, they're either going to accept me or not.
585
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:43.763 line:15%
And I just have to keep, you know, I'm still a lawyer.
586
00:24:43.763 --> 00:24:44.683 line:15%
I just keep going.
587
00:24:46.208 --> 00:24:47.897 line:15%
So, when we were in Kuwait
588
00:24:47.897 --> 00:24:52.640 line:15%
we were sort of doing different, you know, investigations,
589
00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:53.690 line:15%
asking different questions.
590
00:24:53.690 --> 00:24:55.850 line:15%
And I know at some point, I was
591
00:24:55.850 --> 00:25:00.280 line:15%
in charge of meeting with each of the fathers
592
00:25:00.280 --> 00:25:03.960 line:15%
or brothers and taking the story, learning as much
593
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.070 line:15%
as I could about their particular son or brother.
594
00:25:07.070 --> 00:25:09.107 line:15%
And, you know, I just remember, like,
595
00:25:09.107 --> 00:25:12.240 line:15%
and a lot of times we had to have an interpreter there
596
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:14.470 line:15%
because they usually did not speak English.
597
00:25:14.470 --> 00:25:17.660 line:15%
Some of them did, but, you know, I just remember
598
00:25:18.530 --> 00:25:21.690 line:15%
in the beginning it was very, you know, sort of awkward
599
00:25:21.690 --> 00:25:23.750 line:15%
but they knew, you know, it was sort of like, okay, well,
600
00:25:23.750 --> 00:25:25.490 line:15%
here's the lawyer who's going to help you.
601
00:25:25.490 --> 00:25:27.620 line:15%
And Tom is busy, so don't look, you know,
602
00:25:27.620 --> 00:25:28.970 line:15%
don't look for him.
603
00:25:28.970 --> 00:25:31.670 line:15%
This is Kristine. And that's what you got.
604
00:25:31.670 --> 00:25:33.360 line:15%
And in the beginning, there was some
605
00:25:33.360 --> 00:25:36.400 line:15%
of the guys were, you know, they'd look away and talk,
606
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:37.798 line:15%
they'd talk to the interpreter, you know,
607
00:25:37.798 --> 00:25:42.798 line:15%
who was actually the father of one, Mr. Khalid Al Odah.
608
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:45.780 line:15%
They talked to him basically
609
00:25:45.780 --> 00:25:47.920 line:15%
when I was asking the questions.
610
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:50.580 line:15%
But, you know, in many of those sort of,
611
00:25:50.580 --> 00:25:53.510 line:15%
you know, intakes, there was sort of an intake,
612
00:25:53.510 --> 00:25:54.343 line:15%
by the end of it, you know,
613
00:25:54.343 --> 00:25:56.930 line:15%
they were just talking about their son.
614
00:25:56.930 --> 00:25:59.370 line:15%
I mean, that's what that was about was telling me
615
00:25:59.370 --> 00:26:00.328 line:15%
who their son was
616
00:26:00.328 --> 00:26:03.440 line:15%
and what their son had done in his life.
617
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:05.570 line:15%
And so, you know, by the end of it,
618
00:26:05.570 --> 00:26:07.810 line:15%
it was like they were looking at me, you know,
619
00:26:07.810 --> 00:26:09.330 line:15%
like with tears in their eyes.
620
00:26:09.330 --> 00:26:11.740 line:15%
And it was like, I'm getting teary-eyed right now
621
00:26:11.740 --> 00:26:12.573 line:15%
just thinking about it, you know,
622
00:26:12.573 --> 00:26:15.050 line:15%
but it was so powerful
623
00:26:15.050 --> 00:26:16.790 line:15%
because I guess that was part of what I was saying.
624
00:26:16.790 --> 00:26:17.650 line:15%
It's sort of like the,
625
00:26:17.650 --> 00:26:20.290 line:15%
that was part of the progression of feeling, you know,
626
00:26:20.290 --> 00:26:23.000 line:15%
the empowerment to be able to take that back
627
00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:25.020 line:15%
to Washington and then file a suit, you know?
628
00:26:25.020 --> 00:26:27.380 line:15%
So, that was one aspect
629
00:26:27.380 --> 00:26:29.153 line:15%
of the experience you're talking about
630
00:26:29.153 --> 00:26:31.730 line:15%
and the other aspect was going to Guantanamo.
631
00:26:31.730 --> 00:26:32.710 line:15%
Right?
632
00:26:32.710 --> 00:26:35.980 line:15%
And, you know, I said before, okay, well, you know,
633
00:26:35.980 --> 00:26:38.130 line:15%
they may not want to talk to me and that's all right.
634
00:26:38.130 --> 00:26:40.310 line:15%
I'll just sit in the corner and take notes.
635
00:26:40.310 --> 00:26:44.560 line:15%
You know, where normally I'd certainly,
636
00:26:44.560 --> 00:26:45.730 line:15%
you know, I'd be up front,
637
00:26:45.730 --> 00:26:47.890 line:15%
you know, stomping my foot and talking
638
00:26:47.890 --> 00:26:48.723 line:15%
about women's rights and everything.
639
00:26:48.723 --> 00:26:49.910 line:15%
But I was like, that's not, you know,
640
00:26:49.910 --> 00:26:52.060 line:15%
that's not going to be the place to do that.
641
00:26:52.060 --> 00:26:56.290 line:15%
So, but that honestly didn't happen
642
00:26:56.290 --> 00:26:59.750 line:15%
when we got to Guantanamo and, you know,
643
00:26:59.750 --> 00:27:02.250 line:15%
and met with all the Kuwaitis, they were,
644
00:27:02.250 --> 00:27:04.570 line:15%
I think they were just, especially at that time,
645
00:27:04.570 --> 00:27:08.480 line:15%
they were just so thankful to see another, you know,
646
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:11.067 line:15%
a person who was saying, "I'm here to try to help you.
647
00:27:11.067 --> 00:27:14.747 line:15%
"I'm on your side, you know, I'm not gonna interrogate you.
648
00:27:14.747 --> 00:27:16.447 line:15%
"I'm not even going to ask you questions
649
00:27:16.447 --> 00:27:17.637 line:15%
"if you don't want me to, you know,
650
00:27:17.637 --> 00:27:18.930 line:15%
"we're trying to do this."
651
00:27:18.930 --> 00:27:21.800 line:15%
And so I think, you know, they sort of saw past
652
00:27:21.800 --> 00:27:23.740 line:15%
if they ever even had any, you know,
653
00:27:23.740 --> 00:27:27.743 line:15%
feelings about a female lawyer versus a male lawyer,
654
00:27:28.760 --> 00:27:29.593 line:15%
you know?
655
00:27:29.593 --> 00:27:31.080 line:15%
Did you wear a head scarf?
656
00:27:31.080 --> 00:27:31.913 line:15%
I did not,
657
00:27:33.250 --> 00:27:37.620 line:15%
not for the Kuwaitis for some of my later clients.
658
00:27:37.620 --> 00:27:38.840 line:15%
In Guantanamo?
Mm-hmm.
659
00:27:38.840 --> 00:27:40.650 line:15%
Why did you for some in-
660
00:27:40.650 --> 00:27:45.590 line:15%
I brought a headscarf and the translator, Ashraf, said,
661
00:27:45.590 --> 00:27:48.187 line:15%
you know, he said, "Kuwait's pretty progressive.
662
00:27:48.187 --> 00:27:49.407 line:15%
"You know, I don't think you really need
663
00:27:49.407 --> 00:27:51.010 line:15%
"to bring a headscarf."
664
00:27:51.010 --> 00:27:53.060 line:15%
He said that might even offend them
665
00:27:53.060 --> 00:27:55.750 line:15%
because you're trying to be something you're not.
666
00:27:55.750 --> 00:27:57.180 line:15%
And I said, "Hmm, okay."
667
00:27:57.180 --> 00:27:59.997 line:15%
So I brought it in with me and then I asked, you know,
668
00:27:59.997 --> 00:28:03.440 line:15%
"Would you prefer if I wore a scarf over my head?"
669
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:06.300 line:15%
And they were like, "No, you know, that's okay."
670
00:28:06.300 --> 00:28:08.683 line:15%
But I also, so to sort of keep on that,
671
00:28:09.930 --> 00:28:12.850 line:15%
I remember several other, you know,
672
00:28:12.850 --> 00:28:17.170 line:15%
visits later we would sort of break up sometimes
673
00:28:17.170 --> 00:28:19.350 line:15%
and I would go see some different detainees
674
00:28:19.350 --> 00:28:21.550 line:15%
and Tom would go see some detainees.
675
00:28:21.550 --> 00:28:23.310 line:15%
And then our colleague,
676
00:28:23.310 --> 00:28:25.700 line:15%
Neil Coslow, would go see some others
677
00:28:25.700 --> 00:28:26.920 line:15%
because that's the, you know,
678
00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:31.360 line:15%
sort of how we covered all 12 of them and we'd come back
679
00:28:31.360 --> 00:28:35.000 line:15%
and we'd meet and talk about how did the meetings go?
680
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:38.430 line:15%
And I realized that in some cases I was learning more
681
00:28:38.430 --> 00:28:41.160 line:15%
about who the detainees were
682
00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:43.826 line:15%
as people than Tom or Neil, you know?
683
00:28:43.826 --> 00:28:45.357 line:15%
And they were like, "Oh, you know
684
00:28:45.357 --> 00:28:46.190 line:15%
"he told you that?
685
00:28:46.190 --> 00:28:47.220 line:15%
"He told you about his kids?"
686
00:28:47.220 --> 00:28:48.520 line:15%
And I'm like, "Yeah."
687
00:28:48.520 --> 00:28:51.140 line:15%
You know, so I think, and I still feel this
688
00:28:51.140 --> 00:28:54.817 line:15%
that as a female, they, you know, they may have,
689
00:28:54.817 --> 00:28:56.800 line:15%
you know, we talked about the law too,
690
00:28:56.800 --> 00:28:58.750 line:15%
not to sort of say, "Oh, you know, I wasn't a lawyer."
691
00:28:58.750 --> 00:29:01.594 line:15%
We talked about the law, but I think they were able
692
00:29:01.594 --> 00:29:05.760 line:15%
to sort of let their guard down a little bit.
693
00:29:05.760 --> 00:29:07.120 line:15%
With Tom and Neil, you know,
694
00:29:07.120 --> 00:29:09.960 line:15%
they had to be strong because they were guys, you know,
695
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:12.620 line:15%
and here they were in this terrible place, Guantanamo.
696
00:29:12.620 --> 00:29:16.640 line:15%
And they had been there, you know, already for a few years
697
00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:20.300 line:15%
but with me, they sort of, you know, let their guard down.
698
00:29:20.300 --> 00:29:24.030 line:15%
And, you know, I remember one guy showing me pictures
699
00:29:24.030 --> 00:29:25.720 line:15%
of his kids, you know?
700
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:27.940 line:15%
And Tom and Neil didn't get to see pictures of his kids.
701
00:29:27.940 --> 00:29:30.070 line:15%
And so that was, you know, as a lawyer,
702
00:29:30.070 --> 00:29:33.550 line:15%
you really do try to bond with your client
703
00:29:33.550 --> 00:29:34.880 line:15%
because it's such a, you know,
704
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:36.570 line:15%
it's such a close relationship, you know?
705
00:29:36.570 --> 00:29:40.200 line:15%
Especially in that sort of situation,
706
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:42.640 line:15%
and then when you're trying to learn about who this guy is
707
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:44.740 line:15%
so you can defend them against these accusations
708
00:29:44.740 --> 00:29:47.860 line:15%
that he's a terrorist or an enemy combatant, whatever.
709
00:29:47.860 --> 00:29:52.860 line:15%
So I definitely, I definitely think that it was an advantage
710
00:29:53.980 --> 00:29:58.130 line:15%
in some cases to be female because they were, you know,
711
00:29:58.130 --> 00:30:02.840 line:15%
they were sort of more, they didn't have to be a tough guy,
712
00:30:02.840 --> 00:30:03.990 line:15%
you know, they sort of opened up
713
00:30:03.990 --> 00:30:06.850 line:15%
and talked about their life in Kuwait.
714
00:30:06.850 --> 00:30:09.860 line:15%
And then we, you know, and then we talked about the law
715
00:30:09.860 --> 00:30:12.790 line:15%
but it was more of a sort of conversation.
716
00:30:12.790 --> 00:30:14.530 line:15%
And yeah, so.
717
00:30:14.530 --> 00:30:16.330 line:15%
From the beginning, you think that was true?
718
00:30:16.330 --> 00:30:18.830 line:15%
From the very beginning, the men opened up to you?
719
00:30:19.790 --> 00:30:21.570 line:15%
I think for the beginning,
720
00:30:21.570 --> 00:30:24.280 line:15%
they didn't open up, you know, with any of us.
721
00:30:24.280 --> 00:30:26.840 line:15%
And I mean, I'll always remember that first visit.
722
00:30:26.840 --> 00:30:29.020 line:15%
Actually, Tom didn't go. It was Neil and I.
723
00:30:29.020 --> 00:30:33.800 line:15%
And it was December 26th, 2004.
724
00:30:33.800 --> 00:30:36.600 line:15%
So, you know, we flew down the day after Christmas
725
00:30:37.460 --> 00:30:42.460 line:15%
and it also happened to be the same couple of days
726
00:30:43.090 --> 00:30:47.310 line:15%
when there was that terrible tsunami in Thailand
727
00:30:47.310 --> 00:30:50.260 line:15%
and Indonesia that killed I don't know how many thousands
728
00:30:50.260 --> 00:30:53.140 line:15%
of people, hundreds of thousands of people.
729
00:30:53.140 --> 00:30:55.260 line:15%
And we sort of learned about it.
730
00:30:55.260 --> 00:30:59.710 line:15%
We learned about it the day, the very first day we came back
731
00:30:59.710 --> 00:31:01.100 line:15%
from doing all these interviews.
732
00:31:01.100 --> 00:31:03.430 line:15%
So, it was just like, I mean, you know,
733
00:31:03.430 --> 00:31:06.000 line:15%
it was terrible to see that on the news.
734
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:06.860 line:15%
And then we had just met
735
00:31:06.860 --> 00:31:09.370 line:15%
with our clients for the first time to see them, you know,
736
00:31:09.370 --> 00:31:11.390 line:15%
in the situation that they were, I just thought,
737
00:31:11.390 --> 00:31:13.180 line:15%
oh my God, the world is coming to an end.
738
00:31:13.180 --> 00:31:14.830 line:15%
You know?
739
00:31:14.830 --> 00:31:15.710 line:15%
So in the beginning,
740
00:31:15.710 --> 00:31:19.950 line:15%
Neil and I had a very particular strategy and even,
741
00:31:19.950 --> 00:31:21.227 line:15%
you know, a couple of visits in, we said,
742
00:31:21.227 --> 00:31:22.967 line:15%
"We're not going to ask them any questions
743
00:31:22.967 --> 00:31:25.617 line:15%
"about what they were doing, or you know,
744
00:31:25.617 --> 00:31:26.887 line:15%
"where they were or anything like that.
745
00:31:26.887 --> 00:31:29.417 line:15%
"We're just gonna tell them all about us.
746
00:31:29.417 --> 00:31:30.547 line:15%
"We're gonna tell them about us.
747
00:31:30.547 --> 00:31:31.737 line:15%
"We're going to tell them about the firm.
748
00:31:31.737 --> 00:31:32.570 line:15%
"We're going to tell them
749
00:31:32.570 --> 00:31:36.180 line:15%
"about the lawsuit that we filed on their behalf."
750
00:31:36.180 --> 00:31:39.950 line:15%
We're gonna, you know, I mean, by now it's two years,
751
00:31:39.950 --> 00:31:41.810 line:15%
we had just won the Supreme Court case.
752
00:31:41.810 --> 00:31:43.570 line:15%
So, that's why we were even down there.
753
00:31:43.570 --> 00:31:45.087 line:15%
So, we literally went through the whole,
754
00:31:45.087 --> 00:31:46.867 line:15%
"This is what we've been doing for two and a half years.
755
00:31:46.867 --> 00:31:49.247 line:15%
"We filed this case and then we appealed it.
756
00:31:49.247 --> 00:31:50.630 line:15%
"And then we went to Supreme Court"
757
00:31:50.630 --> 00:31:52.750 line:15%
and we explained what the Supreme Court was.
758
00:31:52.750 --> 00:31:56.700 line:15%
You know, so, we did all the talking,
759
00:31:56.700 --> 00:31:58.270 line:15%
you know, because we didn't want them to feel
760
00:31:58.270 --> 00:32:01.350 line:15%
like we were just another, you know, interrogator.
761
00:32:01.350 --> 00:32:04.140 line:15%
And I remember some of the, you know, some,
762
00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:05.370 line:15%
you know, there was 12 of them.
763
00:32:05.370 --> 00:32:07.280 line:15%
And I always remember thinking, you know,
764
00:32:07.280 --> 00:32:09.820 line:15%
before we went to go see them for the first time,
765
00:32:09.820 --> 00:32:12.530 line:15%
they're always the 12 Kuwaitis, the 12.
766
00:32:12.530 --> 00:32:14.190 line:15%
And we get down there
767
00:32:14.190 --> 00:32:17.000 line:15%
and they're all very different people.
768
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:18.790 line:15%
You know, some were nice.
769
00:32:18.790 --> 00:32:20.650 line:15%
Some were sort of standoffish.
770
00:32:20.650 --> 00:32:22.450 line:15%
Some seemed a little more trusting than others.
771
00:32:22.450 --> 00:32:25.820 line:15%
Some were just like, "Hmm. Who are you?"
772
00:32:25.820 --> 00:32:30.820 line:15%
Some were very demanding, you know?
773
00:32:30.957 --> 00:32:32.797 line:15%
"Can you bring me this and that and the other?
774
00:32:32.797 --> 00:32:35.170 line:15%
"And bring me a Coke, bring me this, bring me," you know?
775
00:32:35.170 --> 00:32:37.060 line:15%
And some were just grateful that we were even, you know,
776
00:32:37.060 --> 00:32:40.040 line:15%
so I was just like, oh my gosh, they're individual,
777
00:32:40.040 --> 00:32:41.500 line:15%
this is not just a case.
778
00:32:41.500 --> 00:32:43.750 line:15%
They're people. I know that sounds sort of obvious.
779
00:32:43.750 --> 00:32:48.150 line:15%
But, you know, they're people with brothers and sisters
780
00:32:48.150 --> 00:32:50.696 line:15%
and wives and children and parents, you know,
781
00:32:50.696 --> 00:32:54.570 line:15%
and that just became so clear when we were there.
782
00:32:54.570 --> 00:32:58.560 line:15%
So, you know, in the beginning, it was sort of
783
00:32:58.560 --> 00:33:01.360 line:15%
like learning about each other, you know,
784
00:33:02.257 --> 00:33:05.200 line:15%
and some of them, I remember one guy
785
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:08.870 line:15%
who used to say, and this is by the,
786
00:33:08.870 --> 00:33:10.640 line:15%
we'd been there already, like four or five times.
787
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:12.627 line:15%
And he'd say, you know, I said,
788
00:33:12.627 --> 00:33:17.297 line:15%
"I think, I'm not sure I believe yet that you're my lawyer."
789
00:33:17.297 --> 00:33:20.797 line:15%
And he said, "I think this is all a play
790
00:33:20.797 --> 00:33:22.487 line:15%
"that the government is putting on
791
00:33:22.487 --> 00:33:25.680 line:15%
"to make us think that we have lawyers," you know?
792
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:27.420 line:15%
And here we'd been visiting him for like, you know,
793
00:33:27.420 --> 00:33:29.910 line:15%
months already and coming down and we filed this suit.
794
00:33:29.910 --> 00:33:31.900 line:15%
We brought him copies of his papers and all this.
795
00:33:31.900 --> 00:33:34.137 line:15%
And he's like, "Yeah, I think you're,
796
00:33:34.137 --> 00:33:36.677 line:15%
"I think you're an actress" is what he said (laughs).
797
00:33:37.721 --> 00:33:39.170 line:15%
And so eventually we, you know,
798
00:33:39.170 --> 00:33:40.242 line:15%
we did, we-
What'd you say?
799
00:33:40.242 --> 00:33:41.120 line:15%
What'd you say to that?
800
00:33:41.120 --> 00:33:42.890 line:15%
Oh, well, we said, well, actually,
801
00:33:42.890 --> 00:33:43.723 line:15%
so Tom of course said,
802
00:33:43.723 --> 00:33:46.320 line:15%
"Well, Kristine did use to model, you know?"
803
00:33:46.320 --> 00:33:47.820 line:15%
So, you know, it was,
804
00:33:47.820 --> 00:33:49.480 line:15%
you know, who knows why he says stuff like that.
805
00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:53.720 line:15%
But so, you know, we said, "No, we're really your."
806
00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:55.460 line:15%
I mean, how do you, how do you,
807
00:33:55.460 --> 00:33:57.890 line:15%
in that situation, how do you prove?
808
00:33:57.890 --> 00:33:59.617 line:15%
You know, do you say,
809
00:33:59.617 --> 00:34:01.348 line:15%
"Well, if we," if it was you and me, I'd say,
810
00:34:01.348 --> 00:34:02.607 line:15%
"Well, you know what? Let's go on the internet.
811
00:34:02.607 --> 00:34:04.187 line:15%
"I'll show you, I'll show you the website.
812
00:34:04.187 --> 00:34:06.060 line:15%
"I'll show you a picture of me," but you know,
813
00:34:06.060 --> 00:34:09.890 line:15%
you're not allowed to bring anything in those cells.
814
00:34:09.890 --> 00:34:12.190 line:15%
You know, no phone, no, obviously no computer.
815
00:34:13.358 --> 00:34:14.191 line:15%
I don't know, I think,
816
00:34:14.191 --> 00:34:15.024 line:15%
when we first started going down there,
817
00:34:15.024 --> 00:34:16.490 line:15%
you didn't even have internet in your hotel room.
818
00:34:16.490 --> 00:34:19.020 line:15%
So, you know, you just try to,
819
00:34:19.020 --> 00:34:20.170 line:15%
you know, you just try
820
00:34:20.170 --> 00:34:25.170 line:15%
to keep telling them what you're doing to try to help them.
821
00:34:26.160 --> 00:34:28.290 line:15%
But the problem also was, you know,
822
00:34:28.290 --> 00:34:29.880 line:15%
is that no matter what we tried to do,
823
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:32.140 line:15%
we weren't getting that far.
824
00:34:32.140 --> 00:34:35.040 line:15%
You know, and in the beginning, they were so happy to see us
825
00:34:35.040 --> 00:34:37.110 line:15%
and they wanted to hear about their case
826
00:34:37.110 --> 00:34:38.690 line:15%
and they wanted to know what was going on
827
00:34:38.690 --> 00:34:39.650 line:15%
and did we file this?
828
00:34:39.650 --> 00:34:40.483 line:15%
And how did that go?
829
00:34:40.483 --> 00:34:41.330 line:15%
And what did the judge say?
830
00:34:41.330 --> 00:34:43.200 line:15%
You know, what did the press say?
831
00:34:43.200 --> 00:34:44.940 line:15%
And you know, this, that, and the other.
832
00:34:44.940 --> 00:34:46.320 line:15%
And that went on for like a year.
833
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:48.150 line:15%
And then after they realized
834
00:34:48.150 --> 00:34:51.750 line:15%
that we weren't really getting that far
835
00:34:51.750 --> 00:34:54.543 line:15%
and that nobody really cared, even the judges,
836
00:34:55.998 --> 00:34:58.360 line:15%
and that the government kept challenging everything
837
00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:00.930 line:15%
that we filed, you know, there was a little,
838
00:35:00.930 --> 00:35:03.040 line:15%
I don't know if it was a, you know,
839
00:35:03.040 --> 00:35:06.670 line:15%
sort of a loss of trust or just a sort
840
00:35:06.670 --> 00:35:11.360 line:15%
of increasing hopelessness, but that, you know,
841
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:15.040 line:15%
that feeling of hopelessness projected
842
00:35:15.040 --> 00:35:18.040 line:15%
onto the lawyers, you know, like,
843
00:35:18.040 --> 00:35:19.510 line:15%
you know, oh, we don't have, you know,
844
00:35:19.510 --> 00:35:23.077 line:15%
I remember after a year, or year and a half say,
845
00:35:23.077 --> 00:35:25.447 line:15%
"Well, we don't have to talk about the case anymore.
846
00:35:25.447 --> 00:35:28.260 line:15%
"Why don't we just, why don't we just talk?"
847
00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:29.690 line:15%
I mean, they didn't even want to talk about the case.
848
00:35:29.690 --> 00:35:32.085 line:15%
One of them, I remember didn't want to talk about the case.
849
00:35:32.085 --> 00:35:34.130 line:15%
"What have you been doing, Kristine?"
850
00:35:34.130 --> 00:35:38.900 line:15%
You know, and we'd talk about sports, and I was doing a lot
851
00:35:38.900 --> 00:35:41.596 line:15%
of triathlons at the time and, you know?
852
00:35:41.596 --> 00:35:42.500 line:15%
What were you thinking of?
853
00:35:42.500 --> 00:35:45.200 line:15%
What was going on in your head as you see this change?
854
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:50.360 line:15%
Oh, it was so, yeah.
855
00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:51.340 line:15%
So the beginning I was telling you
856
00:35:51.340 --> 00:35:52.330 line:15%
about how I was empowered.
857
00:35:52.330 --> 00:35:54.493 line:15%
And then I was disempowered,
858
00:35:55.330 --> 00:35:58.920 line:15%
because you feel, you know, I mean,
859
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:02.542 line:15%
you feel like, you know, that you're failing
860
00:36:02.542 --> 00:36:05.280 line:15%
that you're failing your client
861
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.460 line:15%
that you're failing your, you know, your profession.
862
00:36:08.460 --> 00:36:10.053 line:15%
I mean, we got so,
863
00:36:11.210 --> 00:36:14.070 line:15%
there's a chapter in my book called Guantanamo 24/7.
864
00:36:14.070 --> 00:36:16.190 line:15%
We just got, we were making trips all the time.
865
00:36:16.190 --> 00:36:19.280 line:15%
We were constantly talking to the press, litigating,
866
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:22.070 line:15%
and I was sort of so focused
867
00:36:22.070 --> 00:36:24.650 line:15%
on doing Guantanamo and that sort of all I did.
868
00:36:24.650 --> 00:36:27.763 line:15%
And that's all we did, you know, that when,
869
00:36:29.006 --> 00:36:31.720 line:15%
you know, you go there and your client is,
870
00:36:31.720 --> 00:36:33.730 line:15%
doesn't even want to talk about the legal work that you do,
871
00:36:33.730 --> 00:36:35.870 line:15%
you start to feel like,
872
00:36:35.870 --> 00:36:37.950 line:15%
you know, what kind of lawyer am I?
873
00:36:37.950 --> 00:36:38.783 line:15%
You know?
874
00:36:40.470 --> 00:36:41.960 line:15%
It's easy to sort of look at it in hindsight
875
00:36:41.960 --> 00:36:44.490 line:15%
and reflect and say, of course, you know,
876
00:36:44.490 --> 00:36:45.570 line:15%
I'm still a good lawyer.
877
00:36:45.570 --> 00:36:46.960 line:15%
At least I hope I am, but you know what I mean?
878
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:49.490 line:15%
At the time when you're in it, and you just, you feel,
879
00:36:49.490 --> 00:36:51.130 line:15%
you feel so powerless.
880
00:36:51.130 --> 00:36:55.578 line:15%
And I felt bad, you know, by then I'd grown,
881
00:36:55.578 --> 00:36:58.930 line:15%
you know, close to a couple of them,
882
00:36:58.930 --> 00:37:01.080 line:15%
had closer relationships with some of them.
883
00:37:02.070 --> 00:37:05.590 line:15%
And I really also felt like what they were going through,
884
00:37:05.590 --> 00:37:07.770 line:15%
you know, especially by then,
885
00:37:07.770 --> 00:37:11.520 line:15%
and I'd learned their stories and, you know,
886
00:37:11.520 --> 00:37:14.970 line:15%
I really felt it just was so unfair.
887
00:37:14.970 --> 00:37:16.078 line:15%
It was so unfair.
888
00:37:16.078 --> 00:37:19.180 line:15%
And what frustrated me the most is that you'd come back
889
00:37:19.180 --> 00:37:22.280 line:15%
to the United States and still, in 2005, after the stories
890
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:25.870 line:15%
of torture came out and you had a lot of military people
891
00:37:25.870 --> 00:37:27.410 line:15%
kind of coming out and saying,
892
00:37:27.410 --> 00:37:29.130 line:15%
this is bad what's going on at Guantanamo.
893
00:37:29.130 --> 00:37:31.367 line:15%
And you still had a lot of American public saying,
894
00:37:31.367 --> 00:37:32.437 line:15%
"Oh, there's terrorists down there.
895
00:37:32.437 --> 00:37:34.227 line:15%
"And they don't deserve any rights.
896
00:37:34.227 --> 00:37:35.473 line:15%
"And why should they have any rights?
897
00:37:35.473 --> 00:37:37.117 line:15%
"And they're foreigners.
898
00:37:37.117 --> 00:37:40.180 line:15%
"And they're those people, they're those people," you know?
899
00:37:40.180 --> 00:37:43.800 line:15%
So it just used to, you know, the sort of the world
900
00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:47.720 line:15%
of Guantanamo and the world back here was just, you know,
901
00:37:47.720 --> 00:37:49.693 line:15%
just colliding and smashing.
902
00:37:50.660 --> 00:37:54.960 line:15%
And you felt that, you know, in your soul.
903
00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:58.890 line:15%
Sort of, I guess that's the best way to sort of say it, but.
904
00:37:58.890 --> 00:38:01.070 line:15%
Did you have issues
905
00:38:01.070 --> 00:38:03.323 line:15%
with the military down there as a,
906
00:38:04.720 --> 00:38:06.820 line:15%
one as a lawyer and two is a woman lawyer?
907
00:38:09.700 --> 00:38:11.250 line:15%
No.
908
00:38:11.250 --> 00:38:14.123 line:15%
You know, when we first started going down in 2004,
909
00:38:14.123 --> 00:38:16.160 line:15%
we were the first lawyers
910
00:38:16.160 --> 00:38:20.210 line:15%
and it was really just us, Tom, Neil, and myself.
911
00:38:20.210 --> 00:38:22.890 line:15%
And there was another couple of lawyers
912
00:38:22.890 --> 00:38:24.900 line:15%
who represented the British citizens
913
00:38:24.900 --> 00:38:26.100 line:15%
in the Rasul suitcase,
914
00:38:26.100 --> 00:38:28.780 line:15%
which is sort of that was our case together
915
00:38:28.780 --> 00:38:29.620 line:15%
at the Supreme Court.
916
00:38:29.620 --> 00:38:31.630 line:15%
And so there was a couple of other,
917
00:38:31.630 --> 00:38:34.520 line:15%
Clive, actually was one of the first lawyers down there,
918
00:38:34.520 --> 00:38:37.630 line:15%
people from CCR, Center for Constitutional Rights.
919
00:38:37.630 --> 00:38:42.630 line:15%
And so, the military sort of, you know, saw us as like,
920
00:38:43.137 --> 00:38:44.620 line:15%
and we had an escort, you know,
921
00:38:44.620 --> 00:38:45.903 line:15%
it's a whole rigmarole when you're down there.
922
00:38:45.903 --> 00:38:47.140 line:15%
What does that mean?
923
00:38:47.140 --> 00:38:51.540 line:15%
When you land, you know, a military escort comes
924
00:38:51.540 --> 00:38:55.020 line:15%
to sort of pick you up and make sure you go to your hotel.
925
00:38:55.020 --> 00:38:56.800 line:15%
You know, and hotel was like a,
926
00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:59.220 line:15%
called this combined bachelors quarters.
927
00:38:59.220 --> 00:39:00.670 line:15%
It was kind of like a Motel 6
928
00:39:02.233 --> 00:39:04.130 line:15%
and make sure that you go to your hotel.
929
00:39:04.130 --> 00:39:06.310 line:15%
And then the next morning you take the ferry
930
00:39:06.310 --> 00:39:07.770 line:15%
and they meet you,
931
00:39:07.770 --> 00:39:09.320 line:15%
they take you, take the ferry to the other side
932
00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:11.140 line:15%
which is where the main camp is,
933
00:39:11.140 --> 00:39:13.950 line:15%
where everything, the detention center, all of that,
934
00:39:13.950 --> 00:39:14.840 line:15%
and they meet you there.
935
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:17.280 line:15%
And then they are with you the entire time.
936
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:19.740 line:15%
You are not allowed to be on your own
937
00:39:19.740 --> 00:39:23.940 line:15%
because you might go do something bad.
938
00:39:23.940 --> 00:39:27.270 line:15%
But in the beginning, the military escort sort of,
939
00:39:27.270 --> 00:39:31.370 line:15%
you know, it, the Guantanamo litigation was not well-known.
940
00:39:31.370 --> 00:39:32.900 line:15%
There wasn't a lot of lawyers going down there.
941
00:39:32.900 --> 00:39:34.580 line:15%
There wasn't a whole bunch of stuff coming out.
942
00:39:34.580 --> 00:39:37.570 line:15%
And so, the military escorts were always very, very nice
943
00:39:37.570 --> 00:39:41.640 line:15%
to us because their duty was to escort us around.
944
00:39:41.640 --> 00:39:43.500 line:15%
And so, and we would even go out to dinner
945
00:39:43.500 --> 00:39:46.170 line:15%
with them afterwards, you know, maybe buy them a case
946
00:39:46.170 --> 00:39:48.760 line:15%
of beer at the end of our few day stay and,
947
00:39:48.760 --> 00:39:49.593 line:15%
you know, they were,
948
00:39:49.593 --> 00:39:50.760 line:15%
you know, and so that was fun.
949
00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:52.940 line:15%
But then as more lawyers started going down there,
950
00:39:52.940 --> 00:39:55.180 line:15%
it became more of sort of a logistical nightmare
951
00:39:55.180 --> 00:39:58.350 line:15%
for the military to try to figure out how are we going to,
952
00:39:58.350 --> 00:39:59.190 line:15%
how are we going to do this
953
00:39:59.190 --> 00:40:01.130 line:15%
with all these lawyers coming down?
954
00:40:01.130 --> 00:40:05.580 line:15%
We can't have them running amuck, you know, on the base
955
00:40:05.580 --> 00:40:06.580 line:15%
which is very small.
956
00:40:07.820 --> 00:40:10.860 line:15%
And so, and then I think also some lawyers went down
957
00:40:10.860 --> 00:40:15.730 line:15%
who were jerks and they treated the military very poorly.
958
00:40:15.730 --> 00:40:18.750 line:15%
And so, then it became that the habeas lawyers were,
959
00:40:18.750 --> 00:40:21.130 line:15%
you know, all of them were jerks.
960
00:40:21.130 --> 00:40:24.180 line:15%
And so then they restricted our movement on the base.
961
00:40:24.180 --> 00:40:26.810 line:15%
They wouldn't let us stay there on that side
962
00:40:26.810 --> 00:40:29.540 line:15%
where there was all the restaurants after five.
963
00:40:29.540 --> 00:40:30.890 line:15%
They wouldn't let us use the library
964
00:40:30.890 --> 00:40:32.440 line:15%
which before we used to actually go
965
00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:35.063 line:15%
to the library and use the internet there and everything.
966
00:40:35.952 --> 00:40:40.220 line:15%
So, things got a little more like we, ourselves,
967
00:40:40.220 --> 00:40:42.610 line:15%
were sort of prisoners in a way
968
00:40:42.610 --> 00:40:44.650 line:15%
that we were constantly watched.
969
00:40:44.650 --> 00:40:46.720 line:15%
We were constantly, you know, I mean,
970
00:40:46.720 --> 00:40:49.410 line:15%
I was followed up to the door of the ladies room
971
00:40:49.410 --> 00:40:50.850 line:15%
by the military escort, just, yeah,
972
00:40:50.850 --> 00:40:52.320 line:15%
because I guess I was, you know,
973
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:54.170 line:15%
because that was their job, you know?
974
00:40:55.420 --> 00:40:57.520 line:15%
So, that changed,
975
00:40:57.520 --> 00:40:59.980 line:15%
I think the sort of goodwill towards lawyers,
976
00:40:59.980 --> 00:41:02.800 line:15%
which was at the beginning sort of changed, not to say,
977
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:04.420 line:15%
they all did their jobs,
978
00:41:04.420 --> 00:41:06.800 line:15%
you know, very professionally, but certainly the sort
979
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:10.250 line:15%
of friendliness that was there at the beginning was gone,
980
00:41:10.250 --> 00:41:12.318 line:15%
you know, a year later, I think
981
00:41:12.318 --> 00:41:14.210 line:15%
because there was so many lawyers going down and then,
982
00:41:14.210 --> 00:41:16.150 line:15%
and they're, you know, like any group of people,
983
00:41:16.150 --> 00:41:20.847 line:15%
there were some jerks, you know, and Tom (laughs),
984
00:41:22.040 --> 00:41:24.840 line:15%
Tom is a little bit of a belligerent person.
985
00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:26.160 line:15%
He will tell you this himself.
986
00:41:26.160 --> 00:41:29.347 line:15%
And so, whenever we would, you know,
987
00:41:29.347 --> 00:41:31.217 line:15%
and we got told, "No" a lot, you know,
988
00:41:31.217 --> 00:41:34.110 line:15%
"No, no, you can't do that. No, you can't do that."
989
00:41:34.110 --> 00:41:37.590 line:15%
And Tom sometimes would, you know, fight back.
990
00:41:37.590 --> 00:41:40.380 line:15%
And I mean, on more than one occasion,
991
00:41:40.380 --> 00:41:43.050 line:15%
I would physically have to step in front of him
992
00:41:43.050 --> 00:41:46.180 line:15%
so that he would not do something really stupid
993
00:41:46.180 --> 00:41:47.780 line:15%
and get us all kicked off the base.
994
00:41:47.780 --> 00:41:48.690 line:15%
Yes. I know.
995
00:41:48.690 --> 00:41:49.720 line:15%
This is true. This is true.
996
00:41:49.720 --> 00:41:51.350 line:15%
He will tell you it is true
997
00:41:51.350 --> 00:41:53.570 line:15%
because you know, he's a,
998
00:41:53.570 --> 00:41:56.960 line:15%
so, you know, there weren't always good feelings
999
00:41:56.960 --> 00:41:58.030 line:15%
between us in the military
1000
00:41:58.030 --> 00:41:59.660 line:15%
but they always, you know, they always did their job.
1001
00:41:59.660 --> 00:42:01.810 line:15%
And I always felt like, oh my gosh, you know,
1002
00:42:01.810 --> 00:42:05.130 line:15%
of all the posts in the world, you know,
1003
00:42:05.130 --> 00:42:08.540 line:15%
to go to Guantanamo because you're really, as a soldier,
1004
00:42:08.540 --> 00:42:11.920 line:15%
you're sort of, you know, you're not in the action.
1005
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:14.500 line:15%
So, you don't have that sort of feeling like I'm doing,
1006
00:42:14.500 --> 00:42:17.703 line:15%
you know, I'm here in Afghanistan doing something,
1007
00:42:19.070 --> 00:42:20.730 line:15%
you know, putting my life in danger.
1008
00:42:20.730 --> 00:42:23.190 line:15%
You're at Guantanamo and you've got all, you know,
1009
00:42:23.190 --> 00:42:25.670 line:15%
so a lot of, by now you got some bad press coming out
1010
00:42:25.670 --> 00:42:27.730 line:15%
about how the detainees are tortured
1011
00:42:27.730 --> 00:42:29.482 line:15%
and this, that, and the other.
1012
00:42:29.482 --> 00:42:31.040 line:15%
So, I always thought it was very hard
1013
00:42:31.040 --> 00:42:32.490 line:15%
for the soldiers to be there.
1014
00:42:34.190 --> 00:42:36.690 line:15%
It must've been very difficult to sort of try
1015
00:42:36.690 --> 00:42:41.690 line:15%
to do their job and then also face, you know, criticism
1016
00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:47.453 line:15%
by the, you know, Americans and international community.
1017
00:42:48.750 --> 00:42:50.480 line:15%
So, and I also, you know,
1018
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:52.000 line:15%
and also, you know. you have to remember,
1019
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:53.340 line:15%
it's like the military is made up
1020
00:42:53.340 --> 00:42:55.250 line:15%
of all sorts of different people.
1021
00:42:55.250 --> 00:42:56.670 line:15%
Just because they're in the military doesn't mean
1022
00:42:56.670 --> 00:42:58.940 line:15%
they support what the president is doing.
1023
00:42:58.940 --> 00:43:03.160 line:15%
And so, and that was also sort of an interesting, you know,
1024
00:43:03.160 --> 00:43:07.270 line:15%
thing is that sometimes there were some soldiers, you know,
1025
00:43:07.270 --> 00:43:11.200 line:15%
who clearly would say, would sort of hint
1026
00:43:11.200 --> 00:43:14.560 line:15%
at that what was going on in Guantanamo was just wrong,
1027
00:43:14.560 --> 00:43:15.790 line:15%
you know?
They would tell you that?
1028
00:43:15.790 --> 00:43:18.133 line:15%
Yeah. I mean, it wouldn't say it outright.
1029
00:43:19.180 --> 00:43:21.490 line:15%
But definitely in some conversations that I had,
1030
00:43:21.490 --> 00:43:26.490 line:15%
you could definitely feel that was the sentiment.
1031
00:43:26.530 --> 00:43:27.363 line:15%
You know?
1032
00:43:27.363 --> 00:43:28.750 line:15%
Did you see any women's soldiers
1033
00:43:28.750 --> 00:43:30.500 line:15%
or women guards while you were there?
1034
00:43:30.500 --> 00:43:34.220 line:15%
Yes and I actually almost came to fisticuffs
1035
00:43:34.220 --> 00:43:35.060 line:15%
with one of them (laughs),
1036
00:43:35.060 --> 00:43:36.390 line:15%
and then I decided, you know what?
1037
00:43:36.390 --> 00:43:39.543 line:15%
She has a gun and that's probably not a good idea.
1038
00:43:40.930 --> 00:43:44.080 line:15%
Yeah, I was trying to go back into the cell
1039
00:43:44.080 --> 00:43:45.220 line:15%
and she wanted me to wait.
1040
00:43:45.220 --> 00:43:46.710 line:15%
I think I went out to the bathroom
1041
00:43:46.710 --> 00:43:49.020 line:15%
or something and she wanted me to wait
1042
00:43:49.020 --> 00:43:52.610 line:15%
and I don't remember what the whole story was
1043
00:43:52.610 --> 00:43:56.980 line:15%
but she had to grab my arm or something or put her hand up.
1044
00:43:56.980 --> 00:43:59.410 line:15%
And yeah, that's when I realized that I was,
1045
00:43:59.410 --> 00:44:01.540 line:15%
I should back down.
1046
00:44:01.540 --> 00:44:03.710 line:15%
You don't want to get into a fisticuffs with a guard.
1047
00:44:03.710 --> 00:44:05.100 line:15%
So, but there were,
1048
00:44:05.100 --> 00:44:07.810 line:15%
there were some female guards, not that many, I mean,
1049
00:44:07.810 --> 00:44:12.810 line:15%
probably 98% men, especially where, you know,
1050
00:44:13.530 --> 00:44:15.760 line:15%
where we were at camp, it's called Camp Echo
1051
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:17.170 line:15%
which is where they bring the detainees
1052
00:44:17.170 --> 00:44:19.370 line:15%
for their interviews with their lawyers, so.
1053
00:44:20.490 --> 00:44:23.020 line:15%
So as a woman lawyer,
1054
00:44:23.020 --> 00:44:24.407 line:15%
you're one of the very few.
1055
00:44:26.270 --> 00:44:27.103 line:15%
Keep talking, I'm just going
1056
00:44:27.103 --> 00:44:28.810 line:15%
to tweak this again.
Is it? Okay.
1057
00:44:28.810 --> 00:44:29.643 line:15%
Is it slipping down?
1058
00:44:29.643 --> 00:44:31.337 line:15%
No, it's just moved when you move hand.
1059
00:44:31.337 --> 00:44:32.310 line:15%
Oh, okay.
1060
00:44:32.310 --> 00:44:33.308 line:15%
Yeah.
Sorry.
1061
00:44:33.308 --> 00:44:34.141 line:15%
That's okay.
1062
00:44:34.141 --> 00:44:35.152 line:15%
You have, just, movements.
I move.
1063
00:44:35.152 --> 00:44:37.037 line:15%
I know. I'm not Italian, but I (laughs).
1064
00:44:38.447 --> 00:44:41.397 line:15%
I do have the hand, I do have the good, the hand movements.
1065
00:44:42.940 --> 00:44:44.890 line:15%
So, it sounds to me
1066
00:44:44.890 --> 00:44:48.740 line:15%
that you were comfortable in a very male world,
1067
00:44:48.740 --> 00:44:50.590 line:15%
first in Kuwait, but then it sounds to me,
1068
00:44:50.590 --> 00:44:52.180 line:15%
even in Guantanamo kind of.
1069
00:44:53.100 --> 00:44:56.407 line:15%
Yeah, and, you know, and people would say,
1070
00:44:56.407 --> 00:44:59.540 line:15%
you know, when I grew up in Alaska, so I grew up in Alaska.
1071
00:44:59.540 --> 00:45:03.820 line:15%
My father is very, he is rough and tumble Alaskan.
1072
00:45:03.820 --> 00:45:07.000 line:15%
And he has two children, both who are female.
1073
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:10.130 line:15%
And so, you know, there was no boys to do,
1074
00:45:10.130 --> 00:45:11.140 line:15%
you know, all the heavy lifting.
1075
00:45:11.140 --> 00:45:13.530 line:15%
So, we did, and I learned how to shoot when I was eight
1076
00:45:13.530 --> 00:45:17.240 line:15%
and I know how to skin a moose and, you know, catch a salmon
1077
00:45:17.240 --> 00:45:20.570 line:15%
and shoot, you know, a whole variety of weapons.
1078
00:45:20.570 --> 00:45:24.840 line:15%
And so, I guess, you know, sort of some of that,
1079
00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:27.270 line:15%
you know, and he was in the military when he was young
1080
00:45:27.270 --> 00:45:30.153 line:15%
and I guess some of that stuff sort of doesn't,
1081
00:45:31.370 --> 00:45:33.750 line:15%
it doesn't phase me too much or whatever.
1082
00:45:33.750 --> 00:45:36.790 line:15%
So, you know, yeah.
1083
00:45:36.790 --> 00:45:38.533 line:15%
Maybe that's sort of what helps.
1084
00:45:40.340 --> 00:45:45.340 line:15%
Could you describe how it changed with,
1085
00:45:45.870 --> 00:45:48.480 line:15%
I know you said something in terms of with your clients,
1086
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:52.530 line:15%
they became more, somewhat hopeless,
1087
00:45:52.530 --> 00:45:53.500 line:15%
as you said, along the way.
1088
00:45:53.500 --> 00:45:57.010 line:15%
And then that affected you in terms of maybe empowered.
1089
00:45:57.010 --> 00:45:58.994 line:15%
Is that true up to the present time?
1090
00:45:58.994 --> 00:46:00.860 line:15%
Or do you still?
1091
00:46:00.860 --> 00:46:05.130 line:15%
No. It's, so in the beginning, I represented 12 Kuwaitis.
1092
00:46:05.130 --> 00:46:06.670 line:15%
And that was sort of the, you know,
1093
00:46:06.670 --> 00:46:10.130 line:15%
that was the big Supreme Court case, the Rasul Case.
1094
00:46:10.130 --> 00:46:12.440 line:15%
And then it sort of became the Boumediene case.
1095
00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:15.800 line:15%
There were two Supreme Court cases that changed things.
1096
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:17.760 line:15%
And those were my original set of clients.
1097
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:20.760 line:15%
And eventually, a different law firm took
1098
00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:22.220 line:15%
over that representation.
1099
00:46:22.220 --> 00:46:23.490 line:15%
I changed jobs.
1100
00:46:23.490 --> 00:46:26.830 line:15%
And then I actually went on to represent Omar Khadr
1101
00:46:26.830 --> 00:46:31.210 line:15%
who's the Canadian, young Canadian guy,
1102
00:46:31.210 --> 00:46:33.270 line:15%
who's facing military commissions.
1103
00:46:33.270 --> 00:46:34.103 line:15%
Could you tell us a little bit
1104
00:46:34.103 --> 00:46:36.980 line:15%
about how you got to represent him and exactly what?
1105
00:46:36.980 --> 00:46:39.880 line:15%
Yeah, I went from Shearman and Sterling.
1106
00:46:39.880 --> 00:46:41.440 line:15%
And I went on to teach
1107
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:45.550 line:15%
at American University Washington College of Law here in DC.
1108
00:46:45.550 --> 00:46:49.070 line:15%
And they, like most law schools, have a clinic,
1109
00:46:49.070 --> 00:46:50.510 line:15%
international human rights clinic
1110
00:46:50.510 --> 00:46:54.170 line:15%
and they were already representing Omar Khadr.
1111
00:46:54.170 --> 00:46:58.690 line:15%
And they were looking for sort of additional, you know,
1112
00:46:58.690 --> 00:47:01.060 line:15%
faculty to work in the clinic where you, you know,
1113
00:47:01.060 --> 00:47:04.580 line:15%
where you teach, you both teach students how to be a lawyer.
1114
00:47:04.580 --> 00:47:08.550 line:15%
And then you also work on a case, real case
1115
00:47:08.550 --> 00:47:10.530 line:15%
with the students and they represented Omar Khadr.
1116
00:47:10.530 --> 00:47:14.110 line:15%
So, that's how that representation came about.
1117
00:47:14.110 --> 00:47:15.610 line:15%
And I actually did go to Guantanamo
1118
00:47:15.610 --> 00:47:18.857 line:15%
to see him.
Could you tell us,
1119
00:47:18.857 --> 00:47:20.590 line:15%
you know, so people who are watching will know
1120
00:47:20.590 --> 00:47:21.650 line:15%
who Omar Khadr is?
1121
00:47:21.650 --> 00:47:25.530 line:15%
Yes. Omar Khadr is a Canadian citizen.
1122
00:47:25.530 --> 00:47:30.070 line:15%
He is one, he is the only remaining westerner there
1123
00:47:31.020 --> 00:47:34.323 line:15%
at Guantanamo out of the original 600 and something.
1124
00:47:35.220 --> 00:47:36.930 line:15%
He was in Afghanistan.
1125
00:47:36.930 --> 00:47:41.930 line:15%
He was picked up when he was 15 and held in Afghanistan
1126
00:47:42.290 --> 00:47:46.710 line:15%
for a few months and then taken to Guantanamo.
1127
00:47:46.710 --> 00:47:51.710 line:15%
He was 16 by then, and he is now 24, maybe even 25.
1128
00:47:54.160 --> 00:47:58.430 line:15%
And he is facing a military commission.
1129
00:47:58.430 --> 00:48:02.790 line:15%
He's charged with killing a U.S. soldier.
1130
00:48:02.790 --> 00:48:05.830 line:15%
And the big, I think,
1131
00:48:05.830 --> 00:48:09.540 line:15%
debate and controversy over Omar Khadr is,
1132
00:48:09.540 --> 00:48:11.390 line:15%
well, there's a couple,
1133
00:48:11.390 --> 00:48:13.760 line:15%
but primarily it's the fact that he was picked up
1134
00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:17.820 line:15%
when he was 15, which is, you know, we have this concept
1135
00:48:17.820 --> 00:48:21.610 line:15%
even the U.S. has signed the the protocol
1136
00:48:21.610 --> 00:48:23.450 line:15%
on the UN convention to the rights of the child
1137
00:48:23.450 --> 00:48:27.330 line:15%
that recognizes children soldiers.
1138
00:48:27.330 --> 00:48:29.690 line:15%
And that if you're under the age of 18,
1139
00:48:29.690 --> 00:48:32.360 line:15%
there's a special sort of consideration,
1140
00:48:32.360 --> 00:48:35.040 line:15%
even if you were fighting and you were in a, you know,
1141
00:48:35.040 --> 00:48:37.510 line:15%
battle and armed conflict,
1142
00:48:37.510 --> 00:48:40.640 line:15%
you are due sort of special consideration
1143
00:48:40.640 --> 00:48:45.520 line:15%
because of the vulnerability of your age, obviously.
1144
00:48:45.520 --> 00:48:47.880 line:15%
We've, you know, we've recognized that.
1145
00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:51.210 line:15%
Well, with Omar Khadr we do not recognize that.
1146
00:48:51.210 --> 00:48:54.100 line:15%
And in fact, early on
1147
00:48:54.100 --> 00:48:57.230 line:15%
there were several juveniles at Guantanamo.
1148
00:48:57.230 --> 00:48:58.360 line:15%
So, that's Omar Khadr.
1149
00:48:58.360 --> 00:49:00.020 line:15%
The other I think very important
1150
00:49:00.020 --> 00:49:02.760 line:15%
sort of interesting thing is that he was,
1151
00:49:02.760 --> 00:49:05.160 line:15%
you know, he's accused of killing a U.S. soldier
1152
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:09.730 line:15%
but it was in a battlefield situation
1153
00:49:09.730 --> 00:49:14.730 line:15%
in which the U.S. Army or U.S. military was attacking him.
1154
00:49:16.140 --> 00:49:21.130 line:15%
So, you know, I guess the argument goes that if,
1155
00:49:21.130 --> 00:49:24.210 line:15%
you know, if you were being attacked
1156
00:49:24.210 --> 00:49:27.550 line:15%
by opposing occupying force,
1157
00:49:27.550 --> 00:49:29.460 line:15%
under the Geneva conventions,
1158
00:49:29.460 --> 00:49:31.960 line:15%
you're actually allowed to fight back and protect,
1159
00:49:31.960 --> 00:49:32.920 line:15%
defend your life.
1160
00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:35.670 line:15%
Yeah, so, you know, but no, that's,
1161
00:49:35.670 --> 00:49:37.530 line:15%
you know, we don't believe in the Geneva conventions either
1162
00:49:37.530 --> 00:49:38.710 line:15%
when it comes to Guantanamo.
1163
00:49:38.710 --> 00:49:43.710 line:15%
So, I represented him for a year and and I visited him
1164
00:49:44.010 --> 00:49:47.558 line:15%
in September of zero seven,
1165
00:49:47.558 --> 00:49:48.391 line:15%
Can you tell us a bit
1166
00:49:48.391 --> 00:49:50.867 line:15%
Zero six, sorry.
About that meeting with him?
1167
00:49:50.867 --> 00:49:52.110 line:15%
Yeah, it was,
1168
00:49:52.110 --> 00:49:54.200 line:15%
and I do want to get back to your earlier question
1169
00:49:54.200 --> 00:49:55.410 line:15%
about sort of the hopelessness,
1170
00:49:55.410 --> 00:49:58.670 line:15%
'cause I have a sort of very sad story
1171
00:49:58.670 --> 00:49:59.567 line:15%
about one of my Kuwaiti.
1172
00:49:59.567 --> 00:50:00.400 line:15%
Why don't you tell that?
1173
00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:01.430 line:15%
You want me to tell that story first?
1174
00:50:01.430 --> 00:50:02.388 line:15%
Yeah, and then we'll go back for Omar.
1175
00:50:02.388 --> 00:50:03.221 line:15%
Okay. Yeah, sorry.
1176
00:50:03.221 --> 00:50:04.193 line:15%
I sort of, if I'm jumping around you just,
1177
00:50:04.193 --> 00:50:06.023 line:15%
No, no.
You just rein me in.
1178
00:50:07.670 --> 00:50:11.310 line:15%
So the Kuwaiti, so, you know,
1179
00:50:11.310 --> 00:50:12.143 line:15%
it was interesting.
1180
00:50:12.143 --> 00:50:14.610 line:15%
It was that, you know, we started representing them 2002.
1181
00:50:14.610 --> 00:50:17.400 line:15%
We meet them for the first time in 2004
1182
00:50:17.400 --> 00:50:20.760 line:15%
and we're visiting them on a regular basis.
1183
00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:22.360 line:15%
And pretty early on,
1184
00:50:22.360 --> 00:50:24.930 line:15%
one of the Kuwaitis actually got released.
1185
00:50:24.930 --> 00:50:26.020 line:15%
And so, you know,
1186
00:50:26.020 --> 00:50:30.620 line:15%
before this Boumediene case came out in 2008,
1187
00:50:30.620 --> 00:50:32.887 line:15%
the Bush Administration released a lot of detainees.
1188
00:50:32.887 --> 00:50:35.130 line:15%
They didn't, there was no hearing,
1189
00:50:35.130 --> 00:50:37.360 line:15%
there were just diplomatic releases, right?
1190
00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:39.880 line:15%
So, one of the Kuwaitis
1191
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:43.870 line:15%
and then I think the following year, again, before 2008,
1192
00:50:43.870 --> 00:50:47.200 line:15%
several other Kuwaitis got released
1193
00:50:47.200 --> 00:50:50.360 line:15%
and there was a particular Kuwait citizen.
1194
00:50:50.360 --> 00:50:53.270 line:15%
His name is Abdullah Al Kandari.
1195
00:50:53.270 --> 00:50:55.880 line:15%
And he was one that I became, you know,
1196
00:50:55.880 --> 00:50:58.510 line:15%
in particular formed a close relationship with
1197
00:50:58.510 --> 00:51:00.300 line:15%
among a couple of others.
1198
00:51:00.300 --> 00:51:03.120 line:15%
And in part that was because he was young and he was a,
1199
00:51:03.120 --> 00:51:07.070 line:15%
he had been a professional soccer player in Kuwait.
1200
00:51:07.070 --> 00:51:10.240 line:15%
He was actually on the Kuwait national team.
1201
00:51:10.240 --> 00:51:11.106 line:15%
And so, you know,
1202
00:51:11.106 --> 00:51:13.410 line:15%
I had done a lot of marathons and triathlons.
1203
00:51:13.410 --> 00:51:15.050 line:15%
So, we talked a lot about sports and all that.
1204
00:51:15.050 --> 00:51:18.080 line:15%
So, you know, there was this close relationship
1205
00:51:18.080 --> 00:51:19.940 line:15%
but I remember one time,
1206
00:51:19.940 --> 00:51:24.270 line:15%
he was just sort of getting more and more, you know,
1207
00:51:24.270 --> 00:51:28.260 line:15%
a little bit more sort of down, you know, he wasn't his,
1208
00:51:28.260 --> 00:51:30.600 line:15%
he was always very cheery, always optimistic.
1209
00:51:30.600 --> 00:51:31.433 line:15%
It's going to happen.
1210
00:51:31.433 --> 00:51:32.680 line:15%
He's going to get released soon.
1211
00:51:32.680 --> 00:51:37.680 line:15%
He sees his other Kuwaiti citizens leaving.
1212
00:51:37.930 --> 00:51:39.970 line:15%
And one particular time,
1213
00:51:39.970 --> 00:51:43.290 line:15%
he pulls out this piece of paper and it's a,
1214
00:51:43.290 --> 00:51:46.490 line:15%
you know, yellow, they were allowed to have yellow note pads
1215
00:51:46.490 --> 00:51:48.830 line:15%
or note pads they could write pencils or whatever.
1216
00:51:48.830 --> 00:51:51.130 line:15%
Actually, they were pencils that apparently they give out
1217
00:51:51.130 --> 00:51:52.370 line:15%
in prisons, they're sort of mushy.
1218
00:51:52.370 --> 00:51:54.220 line:15%
So, you can't, like if you'd try to stab somebody with it,
1219
00:51:54.220 --> 00:51:55.563 line:15%
it would squish up.
1220
00:51:56.600 --> 00:52:00.573 line:15%
So, I know. They also had special toothbrushes but anyways.
1221
00:52:01.870 --> 00:52:02.920 line:15%
Yeah, I never learned any
1222
00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:04.970 line:15%
of that stuff when I was representing GE.
1223
00:52:06.553 --> 00:52:11.553 line:15%
So, he has this piece of paper and he has written out
1224
00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:15.010 line:15%
basically his will, he's written out his will.
1225
00:52:15.010 --> 00:52:18.400 line:15%
And he says, "I want you to give this to my family."
1226
00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:21.360 line:15%
'Cause he says, "I don't think I can go on."
1227
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:24.567 line:15%
And I was just like, you know, "What are you talking about?
1228
00:52:24.567 --> 00:52:25.890 line:15%
"It's going to happen soon." You know?
1229
00:52:25.890 --> 00:52:29.010 line:15%
I mean, but you know, it's like, as a lawyer, you also,
1230
00:52:29.010 --> 00:52:30.667 line:15%
you know, you can't just go in there and say,
1231
00:52:30.667 --> 00:52:32.030 line:15%
"Oh, you're going to get released soon."
1232
00:52:32.030 --> 00:52:33.790 line:15%
I mean, if you don't really know that,
1233
00:52:33.790 --> 00:52:34.730 line:15%
you can't say that
1234
00:52:34.730 --> 00:52:36.240 line:15%
because then what if you go down there two months
1235
00:52:36.240 --> 00:52:37.680 line:15%
from now and he's still there?
1236
00:52:37.680 --> 00:52:40.100 line:15%
You know, so, but how do you then,
1237
00:52:40.100 --> 00:52:41.630 line:15%
you know, it's like all of a sudden I felt like,
1238
00:52:41.630 --> 00:52:43.170 line:15%
oh my gosh, I have to be a lawyer.
1239
00:52:43.170 --> 00:52:45.810 line:15%
I have to be some sort of counselor, you know,
1240
00:52:45.810 --> 00:52:47.890 line:15%
I mean, you know, so,
1241
00:52:47.890 --> 00:52:52.630 line:15%
it was like I tried to give him hope and basically, I mean,
1242
00:52:52.630 --> 00:52:55.420 line:15%
I think he was going to try to, you know,
1243
00:52:55.420 --> 00:52:57.030 line:15%
either starve himself to death
1244
00:52:57.030 --> 00:52:59.460 line:15%
or try to find some way to commit suicide
1245
00:52:59.460 --> 00:53:02.010 line:15%
which of course is, you know, prohibited
1246
00:53:02.010 --> 00:53:05.290 line:15%
in the Muslim religion, like many religions.
1247
00:53:05.290 --> 00:53:08.950 line:15%
But he was so, you know, he's giving me his last will
1248
00:53:08.950 --> 00:53:10.690 line:15%
and testament saying, "Please give this to my family."
1249
00:53:10.690 --> 00:53:13.190 line:15%
And I just was like, you know, "Please," you know?
1250
00:53:13.190 --> 00:53:15.037 line:15%
And I think what I did say was,
1251
00:53:15.037 --> 00:53:18.167 line:15%
"Please just give me another few months.
1252
00:53:18.167 --> 00:53:20.407 line:15%
"Like, don't make any decisions.
1253
00:53:20.407 --> 00:53:22.177 line:15%
"Don't try to, don't do anything.
1254
00:53:22.177 --> 00:53:24.997 line:15%
"You know, just give me another few months.
1255
00:53:24.997 --> 00:53:26.787 line:15%
"I really," you know, and you can't say,
1256
00:53:26.787 --> 00:53:28.080 line:15%
"I know you're going to get released,"
1257
00:53:28.080 --> 00:53:31.550 line:15%
you say, "I really think something's going to happen."
1258
00:53:31.550 --> 00:53:32.580 line:15%
You know? And I did.
1259
00:53:32.580 --> 00:53:34.780 line:15%
I wasn't just saying that, you know,
1260
00:53:34.780 --> 00:53:37.920 line:15%
we had sort of heard that there might be another release
1261
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:39.257 line:15%
of some Kuwaiti citizens.
1262
00:53:39.257 --> 00:53:42.560 line:15%
And I was hoping that he'd be in that bunch.
1263
00:53:42.560 --> 00:53:45.110 line:15%
But, you know, it was just like, it was this,
1264
00:53:45.110 --> 00:53:48.680 line:15%
the most terrible feeling that all
1265
00:53:48.680 --> 00:53:50.650 line:15%
of that legal work that you've been doing.
1266
00:53:50.650 --> 00:53:53.980 line:15%
And then that's, you know, what it comes to.
1267
00:53:53.980 --> 00:53:56.211 line:15%
You know, and I'm like,
1268
00:53:56.211 --> 00:53:57.837 line:15%
"You're giving me your will.
1269
00:53:57.837 --> 00:54:01.070 line:15%
"Am I supposed to be your lawyer taking this will?"
1270
00:54:01.070 --> 00:54:01.903 line:15%
You know?
1271
00:54:03.150 --> 00:54:06.900 line:15%
And fortunately, he was released in a couple of months
1272
00:54:06.900 --> 00:54:10.820 line:15%
and he went back to his, you know, family, wife,
1273
00:54:10.820 --> 00:54:12.633 line:15%
four beautiful kids and all that.
1274
00:54:13.650 --> 00:54:17.780 line:15%
But I also remember coming back to the States
1275
00:54:17.780 --> 00:54:21.180 line:15%
and trying to get the will cleared.
1276
00:54:21.180 --> 00:54:23.527 line:15%
And they said, "This is not, you know,
1277
00:54:23.527 --> 00:54:25.900 line:15%
"this is not part of your legal work."
1278
00:54:25.900 --> 00:54:28.560 line:15%
And so, they refused to clear it so that I could do anything
1279
00:54:28.560 --> 00:54:30.870 line:15%
with it because you have to get everything cleared
1280
00:54:30.870 --> 00:54:33.240 line:15%
you know, before, and then,
1281
00:54:33.240 --> 00:54:35.480 line:15%
you know, it turns out, again, like I said,
1282
00:54:35.480 --> 00:54:37.130 line:15%
a couple months later he was released anyways.
1283
00:54:37.130 --> 00:54:37.963 line:15%
So, you know,
1284
00:54:37.963 --> 00:54:38.843 line:15%
nothing ever came of it.
Did you ever tell him
1285
00:54:38.843 --> 00:54:40.110 line:15%
you couldn't clear his will?
1286
00:54:40.110 --> 00:54:43.250 line:15%
No, because the, I never saw,
1287
00:54:43.250 --> 00:54:45.150 line:15%
after that, I don't think I saw him again.
1288
00:54:45.150 --> 00:54:46.850 line:15%
I think he was released a couple months later
1289
00:54:46.850 --> 00:54:50.420 line:15%
and we did not, maybe the next trip I couldn't go down
1290
00:54:50.420 --> 00:54:51.280 line:15%
or something like that.
1291
00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:54.920 line:15%
So, you know, and they also understood by then
1292
00:54:54.920 --> 00:54:57.490 line:15%
that everything takes a long time.
1293
00:54:57.490 --> 00:54:58.440 line:15%
If they ever wrote us a letter,
1294
00:54:58.440 --> 00:55:00.897 line:15%
it sometimes took six weeks to get to the U.S.
1295
00:55:00.897 --> 00:55:02.890 line:15%
and I mean, you know, who knows why?
1296
00:55:02.890 --> 00:55:04.860 line:15%
Because they were, you know, censoring it and whatever.
1297
00:55:04.860 --> 00:55:09.860 line:15%
So, yeah, that was probably like the lowest
1298
00:55:10.210 --> 00:55:12.440 line:15%
that I felt in terms of sort
1299
00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:14.483 line:15%
of the hopelessness of my clients.
1300
00:55:16.250 --> 00:55:17.410 line:15%
That was pretty, yeah.
1301
00:55:17.410 --> 00:55:18.243 line:15%
Did you know of any
1302
00:55:18.243 --> 00:55:20.793 line:15%
of the Kuwaitis who did try to commit suicide?
1303
00:55:21.990 --> 00:55:25.900 line:15%
We had a couple who went on hunger strike, but I,
1304
00:55:25.900 --> 00:55:28.550 line:15%
and I don't think they ever saw that as,
1305
00:55:28.550 --> 00:55:30.250 line:15%
well, I don't know if that's true.
1306
00:55:33.550 --> 00:55:36.440 line:15%
I think some of the guys who went on hunger strike,
1307
00:55:36.440 --> 00:55:40.430 line:15%
the Kuwaitis, it was both a protest, but also I think some
1308
00:55:40.430 --> 00:55:43.720 line:15%
of them were sort of testing themselves to see
1309
00:55:43.720 --> 00:55:47.200 line:15%
if they could do it and die
1310
00:55:47.200 --> 00:55:49.600 line:15%
because they were like, well, what's the point?
1311
00:55:49.600 --> 00:55:51.977 line:15%
What's the point of living? You know?
1312
00:55:51.977 --> 00:55:55.987 line:15%
And I remember Fouzi, hm, Fouzi said,
1313
00:55:55.987 --> 00:55:59.397 line:15%
"This is the only control I have over myself.
1314
00:55:59.397 --> 00:56:01.527 line:15%
"Everything else is controlled by the military.
1315
00:56:01.527 --> 00:56:05.047 line:15%
"The only thing that I can control is, you know
1316
00:56:05.047 --> 00:56:06.150 line:15%
"is what I eat."
1317
00:56:06.150 --> 00:56:07.490 line:15%
And even then it wasn't even controlled
1318
00:56:07.490 --> 00:56:09.270 line:15%
because they force fed them,
1319
00:56:09.270 --> 00:56:10.410 line:15%
you know, which is sort of funny.
1320
00:56:10.410 --> 00:56:11.920 line:15%
They didn't want them to die
1321
00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:13.770 line:15%
but yet they wouldn't give them a trial.
1322
00:56:13.770 --> 00:56:18.770 line:15%
So, but I don't, I honestly believe none
1323
00:56:19.350 --> 00:56:21.510 line:15%
of our clients tried to commit suicide.
1324
00:56:21.510 --> 00:56:24.280 line:15%
Like some of the other detainees did,
1325
00:56:24.280 --> 00:56:25.700 line:15%
like, you know, hanging.
1326
00:56:25.700 --> 00:56:28.500 line:15%
And then there was some suicides,
1327
00:56:28.500 --> 00:56:32.130 line:15%
hanging themselves by a rope or trying to slit their wrists.
1328
00:56:32.130 --> 00:56:33.970 line:15%
None of them, at least as far as I know,
1329
00:56:33.970 --> 00:56:35.930 line:15%
ever tried to do that, so.
1330
00:56:35.930 --> 00:56:37.000 line:15%
So, do you feel like some
1331
00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:38.367 line:15%
of them were broken?
1332
00:56:42.630 --> 00:56:44.563 line:15%
Oh, that's such a meaningful word.
1333
00:56:46.250 --> 00:56:49.130 line:15%
I mean, I think Abdullah, when he gave me that will,
1334
00:56:49.130 --> 00:56:50.740 line:15%
I think he was broken, you know?
1335
00:56:50.740 --> 00:56:54.000 line:15%
But somehow he managed to hold,
1336
00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:56.290 line:15%
I mean, he held on obviously for, you know,
1337
00:56:56.290 --> 00:56:57.933 line:15%
the next couple months.
1338
00:57:01.357 --> 00:57:02.519 line:15%
Do you think that was the goal
1339
00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:03.852 line:15%
of the military?
1340
00:57:05.504 --> 00:57:07.160 line:15%
In Guantanamo?
Yes! Oh, yes.
1341
00:57:07.160 --> 00:57:09.120 line:15%
In fact, it's even,
1342
00:57:09.120 --> 00:57:10.929 line:15%
I think there were even some public statements
1343
00:57:10.929 --> 00:57:14.210 line:15%
about the early, you know, early on it was,
1344
00:57:14.210 --> 00:57:17.280 line:15%
you know, we are treating them this way,
1345
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:20.810 line:15%
one, because they don't have any rights and two, you know,
1346
00:57:20.810 --> 00:57:21.800 line:15%
we're trying to break them
1347
00:57:21.800 --> 00:57:24.965 line:15%
so that they will give us, you know, information.
1348
00:57:24.965 --> 00:57:27.540 line:15%
And I remember, you know, by then,
1349
00:57:27.540 --> 00:57:28.373 line:15%
and it was we were there,
1350
00:57:28.373 --> 00:57:30.040 line:15%
there were more panels on Guantanamo.
1351
00:57:30.040 --> 00:57:33.217 line:15%
And I remember some people saying like, "I hope they do.
1352
00:57:33.217 --> 00:57:34.837 line:15%
"I hope they break them.
1353
00:57:34.837 --> 00:57:35.747 line:15%
"I hope they break them.
1354
00:57:35.747 --> 00:57:37.437 line:15%
"And so that they'll, you know,
1355
00:57:37.437 --> 00:57:39.480 line:15%
"that they'll tell us where Al Qaeda is."
1356
00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:40.720 line:15%
And we're all, you know, I mean,
1357
00:57:40.720 --> 00:57:41.800 line:15%
I'm sort of being a little simplistic
1358
00:57:41.800 --> 00:57:43.529 line:15%
but I specifically remember somebody
1359
00:57:43.529 --> 00:57:47.440 line:15%
in the audience say, "No, I hope they break them."
1360
00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:49.020 line:15%
You know?
1361
00:57:49.020 --> 00:57:50.810 line:15%
Some of the detainees we've interviewed have
1362
00:57:50.810 --> 00:57:52.590 line:15%
said to us that they see Guantanamo
1363
00:57:52.590 --> 00:57:54.310 line:15%
as psychological prison as opposed
1364
00:57:54.310 --> 00:57:57.860 line:15%
to Bagram and Kandahar which were much more brutal.
1365
00:57:57.860 --> 00:57:59.060 line:15%
Is that how you saw it?
1366
00:57:59.060 --> 00:57:59.970 line:15%
Yeah.
1367
00:57:59.970 --> 00:58:04.300 line:15%
I mean, I think it was just, you know, it was,
1368
00:58:04.300 --> 00:58:05.220 line:15%
I just, I mean, I couldn't,
1369
00:58:05.220 --> 00:58:07.730 line:15%
we couldn't even possibly imagine what that would be like
1370
00:58:07.730 --> 00:58:12.410 line:15%
to be, especially in those first five years,
1371
00:58:12.410 --> 00:58:16.283 line:15%
where you are not told what's going to happen to you,
1372
00:58:17.620 --> 00:58:19.060 line:15%
you know, and this is putting aside
1373
00:58:19.060 --> 00:58:21.130 line:15%
all the sleep deprivation and the,
1374
00:58:21.130 --> 00:58:22.960 line:15%
you know, whatever physical abuse they went through.
1375
00:58:22.960 --> 00:58:24.150 line:15%
I mean, but just, you know,
1376
00:58:24.150 --> 00:58:26.650 line:15%
imagine you're, you know, you're at this,
1377
00:58:26.650 --> 00:58:28.943 line:15%
you're in this strange place,
1378
00:58:28.943 --> 00:58:31.630 line:15%
you're not sure you're ever going to see your family again.
1379
00:58:31.630 --> 00:58:34.450 line:15%
They're not telling you if you're ever going to have a trial
1380
00:58:34.450 --> 00:58:36.040 line:15%
or ever see your family again.
1381
00:58:36.040 --> 00:58:38.980 line:15%
You're not allowed to have any contact,
1382
00:58:38.980 --> 00:58:40.780 line:15%
physical contact with your family.
1383
00:58:40.780 --> 00:58:42.820 line:15%
It's not like they can come visit you like, you know,
1384
00:58:42.820 --> 00:58:45.400 line:15%
in some of these maximum security prisons
1385
00:58:46.340 --> 00:58:49.460 line:15%
and the letters that you get from them are censored.
1386
00:58:49.460 --> 00:58:52.030 line:15%
And some of the letters are six months old, you know?
1387
00:58:52.030 --> 00:58:54.193 line:15%
I mean, I couldn't even imagine.
1388
00:58:56.410 --> 00:59:00.240 line:15%
And they were living in their cells 23 hours a day.
1389
00:59:00.240 --> 00:59:02.230 line:15%
I mean, it's not like they had, in the beginning,
1390
00:59:02.230 --> 00:59:04.540 line:15%
especially they didn't have any community meals.
1391
00:59:04.540 --> 00:59:06.160 line:15%
They didn't have any,
1392
00:59:06.160 --> 00:59:08.280 line:15%
in the beginning, they didn't even have any books to read.
1393
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:09.640 line:15%
They were given the Koran.
1394
00:59:09.640 --> 00:59:12.510 line:15%
Only after a few months had gone by,
1395
00:59:12.510 --> 00:59:13.730 line:15%
but for the first few years, yeah,
1396
00:59:13.730 --> 00:59:16.277 line:15%
they told me, "We have nothing but the Koran to read.
1397
00:59:16.277 --> 00:59:18.277 line:15%
"We have very little physical exercise.
1398
00:59:18.277 --> 00:59:19.447 line:15%
"We never get to talk to anybody.
1399
00:59:19.447 --> 00:59:21.407 line:15%
"The only way I get to talk to, you know
1400
00:59:21.407 --> 00:59:22.767 line:15%
"my neighbor is if I, you know
1401
00:59:22.767 --> 00:59:24.787 line:15%
"sort of yell when the guards not walking by,
1402
00:59:24.787 --> 00:59:26.197 line:15%
"you know, we sort of yell."
1403
00:59:27.100 --> 00:59:29.490 line:15%
And I couldn't, I just, you know, I couldn't even,
1404
00:59:29.490 --> 00:59:31.720 line:15%
I don't even think we can possibly imagine.
1405
00:59:31.720 --> 00:59:33.877 line:15%
And a lot of people say like, "Oh, well, it's, you know
1406
00:59:33.877 --> 00:59:36.310 line:15%
"isn't that just like a prison here in the United States?"
1407
00:59:36.310 --> 00:59:37.143 line:15%
And I said,
1408
00:59:37.143 --> 00:59:38.757 line:15%
"Well, you know, it could be similar
1409
00:59:38.757 --> 00:59:40.457 line:15%
"to a maximum security prison
1410
00:59:40.457 --> 00:59:43.107 line:15%
"but you remember those prisoners have had a trial
1411
00:59:43.107 --> 00:59:45.247 line:15%
"and an appeal and, you know, they were convicted
1412
00:59:45.247 --> 00:59:46.657 line:15%
"and then they had an appeal
1413
00:59:46.657 --> 00:59:47.787 line:15%
"and then they had another appeal
1414
00:59:47.787 --> 00:59:49.230 line:15%
"and they probably had a fourth appeal."
1415
00:59:49.230 --> 00:59:50.072 line:15%
I mean, you know?
1416
00:59:50.072 --> 00:59:52.560 line:15%
You can't even, you can't even equate the two,
1417
00:59:52.560 --> 00:59:54.930 line:15%
you know, but people.
1418
00:59:54.930 --> 00:59:56.460 line:15%
Do you know how these men endured
1419
00:59:56.460 --> 00:59:57.539 line:15%
what they went through?
1420
00:59:57.539 --> 01:00:00.270 line:15%
Do you have any sense, can they tell you that?
1421
01:00:00.270 --> 01:00:01.310 line:15%
I mean, I do.
1422
01:00:01.310 --> 01:00:05.320 line:15%
I do think that having, just having the,
1423
01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:07.970 line:15%
whether it was, you know, lawyers, whether they were,
1424
01:00:07.970 --> 01:00:10.560 line:15%
we were lawyers or somebody else, but to go down
1425
01:00:10.560 --> 01:00:15.180 line:15%
and provide some sort of human contact
1426
01:00:15.180 --> 01:00:18.340 line:15%
where the contact is I'm not interrogating you,
1427
01:00:18.340 --> 01:00:19.356 line:15%
I'm not asking you about how,
1428
01:00:19.356 --> 01:00:21.823 line:15%
you know, what you were doing with Al-Qaeda,
1429
01:00:22.890 --> 01:00:27.890 line:15%
where, you know, I'm saying, "I'm your friend, you know,
1430
01:00:29.117 --> 01:00:31.560 line:15%
"what, do you have any messages for your family?"
1431
01:00:31.560 --> 01:00:33.827 line:15%
Or, "Oh, I just, we just talked to your family
1432
01:00:33.827 --> 01:00:35.980 line:15%
"and here's, you know, here's what's going on."
1433
01:00:35.980 --> 01:00:37.363 line:15%
I mean, just that,
1434
01:00:38.634 --> 01:00:41.560 line:15%
you know, hopefully maybe gave them some hope.
1435
01:00:41.560 --> 01:00:44.513 line:15%
I mean, you know, I think also,
1436
01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:50.519 line:15%
the human body and mind can really endure a lot,
1437
01:00:52.040 --> 01:00:54.160 line:15%
if you have to, you know?
1438
01:00:54.160 --> 01:00:59.160 line:15%
And some of them were obviously very strong and, you know,
1439
01:01:00.600 --> 01:01:01.670 line:15%
always retained the hope
1440
01:01:01.670 --> 01:01:03.110 line:15%
that they would see their family again
1441
01:01:03.110 --> 01:01:05.470 line:15%
and didn't give up hope.
1442
01:01:05.470 --> 01:01:08.820 line:15%
And so, they were able to, you know, make it through,
1443
01:01:08.820 --> 01:01:11.763 line:15%
I mean, you know, I don't know how they,
1444
01:01:12.760 --> 01:01:16.460 line:15%
how you find that strength, but I think that, you know,
1445
01:01:16.460 --> 01:01:18.600 line:15%
humans are very resilient, you know,
1446
01:01:18.600 --> 01:01:22.880 line:15%
and you can find strength in many ways, so.
1447
01:01:22.880 --> 01:01:23.950 line:15%
Not all of them, but.
1448
01:01:23.950 --> 01:01:24.990 line:15%
Yeah, not all of them.
1449
01:01:24.990 --> 01:01:27.063 line:15%
Yeah, I mean, you know, some,
1450
01:01:28.410 --> 01:01:31.350 line:15%
I think some detainees are, you know, they've,
1451
01:01:31.350 --> 01:01:34.150 line:15%
you know, did the hunger strike for years, they,
1452
01:01:34.150 --> 01:01:36.500 line:15%
some of them obviously tried to kill themselves
1453
01:01:36.500 --> 01:01:41.500 line:15%
and succeeded, some have, you know, are very,
1454
01:01:43.930 --> 01:01:46.423 line:15%
you know, psychologically messed up now,
1455
01:01:49.340 --> 01:01:51.963 line:15%
even those who have gone home.
1456
01:01:53.504 --> 01:01:56.000 line:15%
I want to go into something else on that
1457
01:01:56.000 --> 01:01:57.087 line:15%
but let's go on to Omar.
1458
01:01:57.087 --> 01:01:58.770 line:15%
And we can go back.
Oh, yes.
1459
01:01:58.770 --> 01:01:59.893 line:15%
Oh yeah, Omar. Sorry.
1460
01:02:01.070 --> 01:02:02.220 line:15%
Yeah, I mean, that's also
1461
01:02:02.220 --> 01:02:05.840 line:15%
sort of another memorable meeting, you know,
1462
01:02:05.840 --> 01:02:09.140 line:15%
when I started representing him, up until then,
1463
01:02:09.140 --> 01:02:12.460 line:15%
I was only representing men who had never been charged
1464
01:02:12.460 --> 01:02:14.650 line:15%
with anything, you know?
1465
01:02:14.650 --> 01:02:16.520 line:15%
And so, when I started representing Omar,
1466
01:02:16.520 --> 01:02:20.840 line:15%
I was actually representing an accused, you know, terrorist
1467
01:02:22.220 --> 01:02:23.150 line:15%
because my other clients,
1468
01:02:23.150 --> 01:02:24.780 line:15%
whenever people would say like, "They're terrorists."
1469
01:02:24.780 --> 01:02:26.407 line:15%
I would say, "Well, they're not accused of anything,
1470
01:02:26.407 --> 01:02:27.550 line:15%
"they're just being detained."
1471
01:02:27.550 --> 01:02:29.200 line:15%
So, you know, so that to me was
1472
01:02:29.200 --> 01:02:33.567 line:15%
also a sort of interesting personal sort of conflict
1473
01:02:35.220 --> 01:02:36.053 line:15%
to go through.
1474
01:02:36.053 --> 01:02:38.760 line:15%
I mean, my family is very Republican.
1475
01:02:38.760 --> 01:02:40.110 line:15%
My dad was in the military.
1476
01:02:41.460 --> 01:02:45.630 line:15%
My husband is very Republican and, you know,
1477
01:02:45.630 --> 01:02:48.690 line:15%
I've never been sort of a raving
1478
01:02:48.690 --> 01:02:52.360 line:15%
or even far left liberal, you know, I'm sort of moderate.
1479
01:02:52.360 --> 01:02:55.670 line:15%
In fact, I was a registered libertarian for awhile.
1480
01:02:55.670 --> 01:02:57.660 line:15%
So, there was some, you know,
1481
01:02:57.660 --> 01:02:59.830 line:15%
mental conflict going on there in my head, like,
1482
01:02:59.830 --> 01:03:02.643 line:15%
is this, you know, is this the right thing to do?
1483
01:03:03.730 --> 01:03:06.160 line:15%
But it was.
1484
01:03:06.160 --> 01:03:09.810 line:15%
So I go to Guantanamo and I meet this guy, Omar,
1485
01:03:09.810 --> 01:03:13.010 line:15%
and he is at this point, he's gotta be,
1486
01:03:13.010 --> 01:03:14.343 line:15%
I want to say 21?
1487
01:03:17.238 --> 01:03:18.107 line:15%
And I mean, 21, it's like,
1488
01:03:18.107 --> 01:03:21.900 line:15%
you think about some kid who's 21, you know, they're not,
1489
01:03:21.900 --> 01:03:22.906 line:15%
they're sort of in-between, right?
1490
01:03:22.906 --> 01:03:26.420 line:15%
They're not really a kid, but they're not quite an adult,
1491
01:03:26.420 --> 01:03:27.680 line:15%
you know, and you sort of think
1492
01:03:27.680 --> 01:03:30.003 line:15%
about the people you know who are 21, right?
1493
01:03:30.950 --> 01:03:34.130 line:15%
I mean, our students are 20, you know, around that age.
1494
01:03:34.130 --> 01:03:35.850 line:15%
Some of them are 21.
1495
01:03:35.850 --> 01:03:38.070 line:15%
And then you think, imagine if one
1496
01:03:38.070 --> 01:03:41.540 line:15%
of your students had spent the last six years of their life
1497
01:03:41.540 --> 01:03:44.840 line:15%
in prison, at Guantanamo with, you know,
1498
01:03:44.840 --> 01:03:46.920 line:15%
men twice his age.
1499
01:03:46.920 --> 01:03:50.470 line:15%
And so, I meet him and I just remember,
1500
01:03:50.470 --> 01:03:53.960 line:15%
you know, we were trying to talk to him
1501
01:03:53.960 --> 01:03:56.160 line:15%
about his military commission
1502
01:03:56.160 --> 01:03:57.550 line:15%
and they had just come out
1503
01:03:57.550 --> 01:04:00.950 line:15%
with the 2006 military commission act with, you know,
1504
01:04:00.950 --> 01:04:02.470 line:15%
with actually now there's, you know,
1505
01:04:02.470 --> 01:04:04.260 line:15%
rules as opposed to the executive order
1506
01:04:04.260 --> 01:04:05.677 line:15%
which is sort of, you know, President Bush, like,
1507
01:04:05.677 --> 01:04:07.720 line:15%
"Oh, we're gonna have a military commission."
1508
01:04:07.720 --> 01:04:09.287 line:15%
So we were, so he just said, you know,
1509
01:04:09.287 --> 01:04:11.290 line:15%
"I know Congress passed it," and we were trying
1510
01:04:11.290 --> 01:04:13.690 line:15%
to explain what it was about, this, that and the other.
1511
01:04:13.690 --> 01:04:15.306 line:15%
And he's like, you know, I know,
1512
01:04:15.306 --> 01:04:20.116 line:15%
"I know it's an act now," and said, "I really, I just
1513
01:04:20.116 --> 01:04:23.240 line:15%
"I just really, you know, I don't want to participate."
1514
01:04:23.240 --> 01:04:26.107 line:15%
And we were trying to tell him, "Well,
1515
01:04:26.107 --> 01:04:30.267 line:15%
"if you go through the, if we help you through this,
1516
01:04:30.267 --> 01:04:34.877 line:15%
"we can do it in a way, which you can show them
1517
01:04:34.877 --> 01:04:37.993 line:15%
"that it's an invalid system, that it's,
1518
01:04:39.378 --> 01:04:40.715 line:15%
"you know, but you got to show up
1519
01:04:40.715 --> 01:04:43.627 line:15%
"and we think you should show up with us.
1520
01:04:43.627 --> 01:04:47.417 line:15%
"So we want to help you demonstrate the, you know,
1521
01:04:47.417 --> 01:04:49.630 line:15%
"that it's illegal, that it's unconstitutional,"
1522
01:04:49.630 --> 01:04:50.630 line:15%
all these sort of things.
1523
01:04:50.630 --> 01:04:52.017 line:15%
And he was like, "You know,
1524
01:04:52.017 --> 01:04:55.957 line:15%
"I'm sure you guys would be great, but I really," he said,
1525
01:04:55.957 --> 01:04:58.290 line:15%
"I really don't want to have anything to do with it."
1526
01:04:58.290 --> 01:04:59.790 line:15%
And he's like, I,
1527
01:04:59.790 --> 01:05:04.790 line:15%
he said, "If I even have lawyers, I validate the system.
1528
01:05:05.277 --> 01:05:08.767 line:15%
"I validate the military commissions and I, it's,
1529
01:05:08.767 --> 01:05:10.800 line:15%
"I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it."
1530
01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:13.500 line:15%
And I remember thinking like, you know,
1531
01:05:13.500 --> 01:05:17.720 line:15%
that is a completely reasonable feeling to have, you know?
1532
01:05:17.720 --> 01:05:19.920 line:15%
And here's this guy. He's 21, you know?
1533
01:05:19.920 --> 01:05:21.520 line:15%
And he's been in Guantanamo,
1534
01:05:21.520 --> 01:05:25.240 line:15%
at the same time, there was something else.
1535
01:05:25.240 --> 01:05:26.073 line:15%
Oh, what did he say?
1536
01:05:26.073 --> 01:05:30.690 line:15%
He said, and he sort of looked around
1537
01:05:30.690 --> 01:05:34.480 line:15%
and we're at camp five in this very small cell.
1538
01:05:34.480 --> 01:05:36.430 line:15%
And he sort of looks around and he sort of gestures.
1539
01:05:36.430 --> 01:05:40.267 line:15%
And he says, "I'm fine here. This is fine.
1540
01:05:40.267 --> 01:05:42.210 line:15%
"I'm okay with Guantanamo"
1541
01:05:42.210 --> 01:05:44.530 line:15%
which I thought was a very sort of immature,
1542
01:05:44.530 --> 01:05:45.880 line:15%
childish thing to say.
1543
01:05:45.880 --> 01:05:49.990 line:15%
And so, here are these sort of two, you know, parts of him,
1544
01:05:49.990 --> 01:05:54.330 line:15%
one is still, he's still, he's a teenager, you know?
1545
01:05:54.330 --> 01:05:57.450 line:15%
He's sort of, you know, trying to call the bluff
1546
01:05:57.450 --> 01:06:00.647 line:15%
and, you know, and brag.
1547
01:06:00.647 --> 01:06:03.630 line:15%
And then the other side is this very reasonable,
1548
01:06:03.630 --> 01:06:06.317 line:15%
you know, adult person saying,
1549
01:06:06.317 --> 01:06:08.297 line:15%
"I really just don't want to have anything to do with this.
1550
01:06:08.297 --> 01:06:09.707 line:15%
"I don't want to have anything to do with you guys.
1551
01:06:09.707 --> 01:06:11.320 line:15%
"I don't want to validate the system."
1552
01:06:11.320 --> 01:06:16.320 line:15%
And it was like, you know, sort of seeing him caught
1553
01:06:16.720 --> 01:06:19.700 line:15%
between his two worlds of being, you know,
1554
01:06:19.700 --> 01:06:23.130 line:15%
this sort of teenager, and then trying to be an adult
1555
01:06:23.130 --> 01:06:25.930 line:15%
in a very adult world, you know?
1556
01:06:25.930 --> 01:06:30.930 line:15%
And so, yeah, he sort of said,
1557
01:06:33.367 --> 01:06:35.717 line:15%
"I really, you don't need to come visit me anymore.
1558
01:06:35.717 --> 01:06:37.095 line:15%
"And if you want to,"
1559
01:06:37.095 --> 01:06:38.437 line:15%
I think he said, "If you want to continue working
1560
01:06:38.437 --> 01:06:40.977 line:15%
"on my case, that's okay, but, you know,
1561
01:06:40.977 --> 01:06:42.060 line:15%
"you really don't need to."
1562
01:06:42.060 --> 01:06:47.060 line:15%
So, we actually did not visit him for a long time.
1563
01:06:47.957 --> 01:06:51.090 line:15%
And then my colleague went down
1564
01:06:51.090 --> 01:06:53.340 line:15%
and then I ended up going to UT.
1565
01:06:53.340 --> 01:06:56.620 line:15%
So I, you know, basically like left representing him
1566
01:06:56.620 --> 01:06:59.970 line:15%
and then went on to represent two other detainees.
1567
01:06:59.970 --> 01:07:01.553 line:15%
I'll get to those in a moment.
1568
01:07:02.600 --> 01:07:05.100 line:15%
What was your impressions of him when you saw him?
1569
01:07:06.010 --> 01:07:07.477 line:15%
Very polite.
1570
01:07:07.477 --> 01:07:12.477 line:15%
You know, he's a very polite guy.
1571
01:07:13.140 --> 01:07:15.200 line:15%
You know, again, it's sort of hard to imagine,
1572
01:07:15.200 --> 01:07:17.940 line:15%
how can you, how does one grow up in a prison?
1573
01:07:17.940 --> 01:07:19.780 line:15%
You know, and how do you grow up
1574
01:07:19.780 --> 01:07:21.280 line:15%
in a prison where your, you know,
1575
01:07:21.280 --> 01:07:26.183 line:15%
your cellmates are 35 years old, or 28 or whatever?
1576
01:07:27.640 --> 01:07:31.763 line:15%
You know, he's never had a girlfriend or,
1577
01:07:32.660 --> 01:07:34.560 line:15%
you know, or that's just,
1578
01:07:34.560 --> 01:07:36.826 line:15%
you know, or played a video game or something.
1579
01:07:36.826 --> 01:07:38.633 line:15%
I mean, you know, I think rules have sort of changed.
1580
01:07:38.633 --> 01:07:41.600 line:15%
I mean, he may have, you know, the ability
1581
01:07:41.600 --> 01:07:45.570 line:15%
to do some of that now, but he was very polite.
1582
01:07:45.570 --> 01:07:50.260 line:15%
He was very self-assured.
1583
01:07:50.260 --> 01:07:52.370 line:15%
He was very, I mean, he was very nice.
1584
01:07:52.370 --> 01:07:54.810 line:15%
And I think that was sort of always something
1585
01:07:54.810 --> 01:07:57.210 line:15%
that sort of surprised me every time I would go down,
1586
01:07:57.210 --> 01:07:59.380 line:15%
well, whatever client it was.
1587
01:07:59.380 --> 01:08:00.270 line:15%
I mean, by and large,
1588
01:08:00.270 --> 01:08:02.720 line:15%
they were very respectful, very polite,
1589
01:08:02.720 --> 01:08:06.317 line:15%
even if what, you know, whatever they were saying to me was,
1590
01:08:06.317 --> 01:08:09.330 line:15%
"I don't need a lawyer anymore or I know," you know?
1591
01:08:09.330 --> 01:08:11.450 line:15%
Or trying to fire me or whatever (laughs),
1592
01:08:11.450 --> 01:08:12.707 line:15%
which happened a lot, not just me,
1593
01:08:12.707 --> 01:08:16.407 line:15%
but a lot of the other lawyers, I'm sure you've heard that.
1594
01:08:16.407 --> 01:08:17.870 line:15%
You know, but he was very polite, very nice,
1595
01:08:17.870 --> 01:08:19.943 line:15%
very smart, intelligent.
1596
01:08:20.910 --> 01:08:22.990 line:15%
Oh I don't, just but you'd sort of, I mean,
1597
01:08:22.990 --> 01:08:25.617 line:15%
I know, people go "Oh, but he killed a U.S. soldier."
1598
01:08:26.580 --> 01:08:29.250 line:15%
You know, which yes, he might've, who knows?
1599
01:08:29.250 --> 01:08:31.420 line:15%
We have to have a trial first to determine that
1600
01:08:31.420 --> 01:08:34.150 line:15%
but, you know, he's still a young kid.
1601
01:08:34.150 --> 01:08:36.050 line:15%
He's still a human being who's, you know,
1602
01:08:36.050 --> 01:08:39.410 line:15%
sort of really been thrown into a terrible situation
1603
01:08:39.410 --> 01:08:43.797 line:15%
without a whole lot of consideration for, you know,
1604
01:08:44.660 --> 01:08:46.190 line:15%
his age or anything like that, so.
1605
01:08:46.190 --> 01:08:48.570 line:15%
I had read that just very recently
1606
01:08:48.570 --> 01:08:49.660 line:15%
the same thing happened.
1607
01:08:49.660 --> 01:08:52.313 line:15%
He told his American lawyer that he wanted,
1608
01:08:52.313 --> 01:08:53.740 line:15%
have you been following that?
1609
01:08:53.740 --> 01:08:54.573 line:15%
Yes.
1610
01:08:54.573 --> 01:08:55.590 line:15%
Were they from your firm,
1611
01:08:55.590 --> 01:08:57.100 line:15%
the American lawyers who were going
1612
01:08:57.100 --> 01:08:58.470 line:15%
to keep representing him?
1613
01:08:58.470 --> 01:08:59.303 line:15%
I'm sorry?
1614
01:08:59.303 --> 01:09:00.136 line:15%
Was it your firm?
1615
01:09:00.136 --> 01:09:01.480 line:15%
Was it that same firm?
Oh, no.
1616
01:09:02.620 --> 01:09:07.620 line:15%
He was actually telling his military lawyers.
1617
01:09:07.660 --> 01:09:08.683 line:15%
And when we,
1618
01:09:09.690 --> 01:09:12.010 line:15%
yeah, when we represented him, we were civilian.
1619
01:09:12.010 --> 01:09:13.300 line:15%
I think he actually sort of gave up
1620
01:09:13.300 --> 01:09:14.880 line:15%
on his civilian lawyers as a while ago.
1621
01:09:14.880 --> 01:09:16.430 line:15%
So, he was,
1622
01:09:16.430 --> 01:09:18.530 line:15%
the story was that he was telling his,
1623
01:09:18.530 --> 01:09:19.423 line:15%
or no, was it?
1624
01:09:20.430 --> 01:09:22.480 line:15%
Was it, it could have been both his civilian
1625
01:09:22.480 --> 01:09:23.320 line:15%
and his military.
1626
01:09:23.320 --> 01:09:25.390 line:15%
It was both civilian and military.
1627
01:09:25.390 --> 01:09:27.890 line:15%
Yeah, it was a different firm, yeah.
1628
01:09:27.890 --> 01:09:31.883 line:15%
I think AU might've stopped representing him at some point.
1629
01:09:33.158 --> 01:09:34.780 line:15%
And so you didn't really follow his case
1630
01:09:34.780 --> 01:09:35.750 line:15%
after you went to?
1631
01:09:35.750 --> 01:09:37.490 line:15%
Yeah. I mean, I followed it in the sense
1632
01:09:37.490 --> 01:09:40.810 line:15%
that it was in the newspaper a lot and, you know,
1633
01:09:40.810 --> 01:09:42.730 line:15%
and I would ask my colleagues
1634
01:09:42.730 --> 01:09:46.100 line:15%
if they'd been to Guantanamo, how he was doing.
1635
01:09:46.100 --> 01:09:49.120 line:15%
And I always continued contact with the military,
1636
01:09:49.120 --> 01:09:52.440 line:15%
the lawyers who worked in the military commissions
1637
01:09:52.440 --> 01:09:56.360 line:15%
in part because of my new client has been charged.
1638
01:09:56.360 --> 01:09:58.900 line:15%
So, I would hear about, yeah,
1639
01:09:58.900 --> 01:10:00.760 line:15%
and talk to his lawyers,
1640
01:10:00.760 --> 01:10:03.720 line:15%
talk to Omar Khadr's military lawyers
1641
01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:06.500 line:15%
and ask how he was doing and this, that, and the other.
1642
01:10:06.500 --> 01:10:08.350 line:15%
Can you tell us about your two new clients?
1643
01:10:08.350 --> 01:10:12.260 line:15%
Yeah, so when I started the national security clinic at UT
1644
01:10:13.890 --> 01:10:17.810 line:15%
we took on two Guantanamo detainees
1645
01:10:17.810 --> 01:10:21.540 line:15%
who one who had had a lawyer, but wasn't happy with him.
1646
01:10:21.540 --> 01:10:22.890 line:15%
So sort of, you know, good timing.
1647
01:10:22.890 --> 01:10:26.940 line:15%
I was moving and CCR sort of is the, I'd say clearinghouse.
1648
01:10:26.940 --> 01:10:31.550 line:15%
They try to put together detainees with other lawyers.
1649
01:10:31.550 --> 01:10:33.477 line:15%
And so, they approached and said, "Hey, you know
1650
01:10:33.477 --> 01:10:35.689 line:15%
"this guy wants a new lawyer.
1651
01:10:35.689 --> 01:10:36.850 line:15%
"Will you represent him?"
1652
01:10:36.850 --> 01:10:39.460 line:15%
And he is a Syrian guy.
1653
01:10:39.460 --> 01:10:43.810 line:15%
And he was picked up in Afghanistan
1654
01:10:43.810 --> 01:10:47.700 line:15%
and there was, you know, always the fear
1655
01:10:47.700 --> 01:10:50.340 line:15%
that he would get sent back to Syria, you know?
1656
01:10:50.340 --> 01:10:52.143 line:15%
And I immediately thought, you know,
1657
01:10:52.143 --> 01:10:55.680 line:15%
this is sort of just learning lessons the whole,
1658
01:10:55.680 --> 01:10:56.630 line:15%
I immediately thought, of course,
1659
01:10:56.630 --> 01:10:58.120 line:15%
he doesn't want to go back to Syria.
1660
01:10:58.120 --> 01:10:59.927 line:15%
And then I realized, well, maybe I should ask him first.
1661
01:10:59.927 --> 01:11:01.880 line:15%
You know, because I mean,
1662
01:11:01.880 --> 01:11:04.600 line:15%
how arrogant of me to just assume, you know,
1663
01:11:04.600 --> 01:11:06.660 line:15%
so, and it turns out, no, he did not,
1664
01:11:06.660 --> 01:11:09.630 line:15%
he did not want to go back to Syria.
1665
01:11:09.630 --> 01:11:12.260 line:15%
He actually wanted to go to Saudi Arabia
1666
01:11:12.260 --> 01:11:14.259 line:15%
which is where a lot of his family was.
1667
01:11:14.259 --> 01:11:17.014 line:15%
You know, that was something else I didn't really know.
1668
01:11:17.014 --> 01:11:19.431 line:15%
We tried to make that happen.
1669
01:11:20.671 --> 01:11:23.170 line:15%
And I didn't think that was going to go anywhere.
1670
01:11:23.170 --> 01:11:26.190 line:15%
And that, around the same time, when we took on his case
1671
01:11:26.190 --> 01:11:29.080 line:15%
the Obama administration came in and they started up
1672
01:11:29.080 --> 01:11:32.560 line:15%
that detainee review task force, which was to look
1673
01:11:32.560 --> 01:11:36.430 line:15%
at each case and really try to figure out what was gonna,
1674
01:11:36.430 --> 01:11:38.610 line:15%
they were gonna do with that person.
1675
01:11:38.610 --> 01:11:43.380 line:15%
So, my students with my supervision put together literally
1676
01:11:43.380 --> 01:11:45.860 line:15%
like a package, like a selling package, you know,
1677
01:11:45.860 --> 01:11:49.130 line:15%
here's this guy, Syrian guy, you know,
1678
01:11:49.130 --> 01:11:51.000 line:15%
here's why the allegations are wrong.
1679
01:11:51.000 --> 01:11:52.690 line:15%
And here's all the great things about, I mean,
1680
01:11:52.690 --> 01:11:54.770 line:15%
literally really, you know, like a bio
1681
01:11:54.770 --> 01:11:57.390 line:15%
and I went and visited him and, you know, a couple times
1682
01:11:57.390 --> 01:11:59.920 line:15%
and we wrote out this, you know, great story,
1683
01:11:59.920 --> 01:12:03.397 line:15%
his life story, who he was, he was, you know,
1684
01:12:03.397 --> 01:12:06.780 line:15%
a big, big, heavy machine contractor.
1685
01:12:06.780 --> 01:12:07.810 line:15%
Like he owned a bulldozer
1686
01:12:07.810 --> 01:12:09.090 line:15%
that he would con, you know what I mean?
1687
01:12:09.090 --> 01:12:10.370 line:15%
So, you know, we told the story
1688
01:12:10.370 --> 01:12:12.630 line:15%
and then it turns out that I get a call
1689
01:12:12.630 --> 01:12:14.280 line:15%
from the State Department and DOJ,
1690
01:12:14.280 --> 01:12:16.810 line:15%
and they do want to transfer him out of Guantanamo,
1691
01:12:16.810 --> 01:12:18.649 line:15%
you know, hurray!
1692
01:12:18.649 --> 01:12:22.630 line:15%
And they did say, "Syria's off the table."
1693
01:12:22.630 --> 01:12:25.650 line:15%
So, he was sent to Portugal.
1694
01:12:25.650 --> 01:12:27.960 line:15%
Now, when I learned that they were,
1695
01:12:27.960 --> 01:12:29.880 line:15%
that Portugal was a possibility,
1696
01:12:29.880 --> 01:12:30.940 line:15%
went down to visit him.
1697
01:12:30.940 --> 01:12:34.057 line:15%
And he was just like, "Portugal?
1698
01:12:34.057 --> 01:12:35.930 line:15%
"I don't know anybody in Portugal."
1699
01:12:35.930 --> 01:12:38.180 line:15%
And, you know, he's kind of mad at me
1700
01:12:38.180 --> 01:12:40.970 line:15%
and which, you know, by then too, it's like,
1701
01:12:40.970 --> 01:12:42.540 line:15%
I'd been going to Guantanamo for years.
1702
01:12:42.540 --> 01:12:43.860 line:15%
I've taken so many trips down there.
1703
01:12:43.860 --> 01:12:44.807 line:15%
It's not the easiest trip to take.
1704
01:12:44.807 --> 01:12:48.467 line:15%
And I was like, "Listen, buddy, (laughs)
1705
01:12:48.467 --> 01:12:50.047 line:15%
"it's really hard for me to come down here.
1706
01:12:50.047 --> 01:12:52.047 line:15%
"I've got students. I've got," you know?
1707
01:12:53.180 --> 01:12:57.967 line:15%
And I said, "Listen, I want you to go back
1708
01:12:57.967 --> 01:12:59.597 line:15%
"to Saudi Arabia where your family is too
1709
01:12:59.597 --> 01:13:00.927 line:15%
"but I don't think that's going to happen.
1710
01:13:00.927 --> 01:13:02.987 line:15%
"And this could be your only chance.
1711
01:13:02.987 --> 01:13:04.407 line:15%
"Like, if you don't take this,
1712
01:13:04.407 --> 01:13:06.647 line:15%
"you could be stuck in Guantanamo.
1713
01:13:06.647 --> 01:13:08.180 line:15%
"So, go to Portugal."
1714
01:13:08.180 --> 01:13:09.240 line:15%
And they were offering him a good deal.
1715
01:13:09.240 --> 01:13:13.230 line:15%
They were offering him not citizenship, but like residency
1716
01:13:13.230 --> 01:13:15.800 line:15%
or something like that, where he could then travel
1717
01:13:15.800 --> 01:13:18.530 line:15%
like after a year travel within any EU country.
1718
01:13:18.530 --> 01:13:20.927 line:15%
And I just said, you know, "This is,
1719
01:13:20.927 --> 01:13:22.247 line:15%
"you got to look at the long-term,
1720
01:13:22.247 --> 01:13:24.417 line:15%
"you're going to move, make this move.
1721
01:13:24.417 --> 01:13:26.207 line:15%
"It's going to be hard, you know
1722
01:13:26.207 --> 01:13:29.170 line:15%
"but eventually you'll get back to the Middle East."
1723
01:13:29.170 --> 01:13:32.780 line:15%
So he eventually, you know, agreed.
1724
01:13:32.780 --> 01:13:36.320 line:15%
And actually, I think he, we did a phone call with him
1725
01:13:36.320 --> 01:13:39.193 line:15%
and he said, "Yes, take me to Portugal.
1726
01:13:40.027 --> 01:13:42.270 line:15%
"I changed my mind. You were right."
1727
01:13:42.270 --> 01:13:45.040 line:15%
And so he went, and then I had one call
1728
01:13:45.040 --> 01:13:47.670 line:15%
with him in Portugal and the government like set him up
1729
01:13:47.670 --> 01:13:50.660 line:15%
in a house, giving him Portuguese lessons,
1730
01:13:50.660 --> 01:13:52.210 line:15%
trying to help him get work, clothes,
1731
01:13:52.210 --> 01:13:53.550 line:15%
all that sort of stuff.
1732
01:13:53.550 --> 01:13:56.050 line:15%
And I get, actually,
1733
01:13:56.050 --> 01:13:59.020 line:15%
he called me at my house on Sunday afternoon
1734
01:13:59.020 --> 01:14:01.260 line:15%
which was the, I mean, imagine, you know,
1735
01:14:01.260 --> 01:14:03.490 line:15%
the entire time I've been representing Guantanamo detainees,
1736
01:14:03.490 --> 01:14:05.270 line:15%
it takes months just to get a letter.
1737
01:14:05.270 --> 01:14:07.000 line:15%
And all of a sudden the phone rings
1738
01:14:07.000 --> 01:14:08.500 line:15%
and my husband picks it up.
1739
01:14:08.500 --> 01:14:12.147 line:15%
And he's like, "I think it's one of your,
1740
01:14:12.147 --> 01:14:14.640 line:15%
"you know, Guantanamo clients," you know?
1741
01:14:14.640 --> 01:14:17.870 line:15%
So, it's this guy calling from Portugal.
1742
01:14:17.870 --> 01:14:19.990 line:15%
He's just calling me to tell me everything's fine.
1743
01:14:19.990 --> 01:14:21.163 line:15%
That he's okay.
1744
01:14:22.170 --> 01:14:25.373 line:15%
And that he, and this is sort of how he said it.
1745
01:14:26.547 --> 01:14:27.887 line:15%
"I'm going to be okay.
1746
01:14:27.887 --> 01:14:32.887 line:15%
"I can handle it from here. I don't need you."
1747
01:14:34.420 --> 01:14:35.253 line:15%
And it was like,
1748
01:14:35.253 --> 01:14:37.550 line:15%
I felt like a parent seeing their child go off to college,
1749
01:14:37.550 --> 01:14:38.987 line:15%
you know, I was like, "Are you sure?
1750
01:14:38.987 --> 01:14:40.727 line:15%
"Can I do anything?
1751
01:14:40.727 --> 01:14:42.487 line:15%
"Can I, do you want me to come visit you?"
1752
01:14:42.487 --> 01:14:45.810 line:15%
And he's like, "No," you know?
1753
01:14:45.810 --> 01:14:48.787 line:15%
He's like, "I really, you know, you were great.
1754
01:14:48.787 --> 01:14:50.447 line:15%
"You did such a good job.
1755
01:14:50.447 --> 01:14:52.477 line:15%
"And I really, I just,
1756
01:14:52.477 --> 01:14:55.270 line:15%
"I don't even really want to have contact with you."
1757
01:14:55.270 --> 01:14:56.840 line:15%
And so, it was like a good feeling,
1758
01:14:56.840 --> 01:14:57.840 line:15%
of course, a little, you know,
1759
01:14:57.840 --> 01:15:00.620 line:15%
a little bit like sad, but not really
1760
01:15:00.620 --> 01:15:02.320 line:15%
and part of me was just like, that's great,
1761
01:15:02.320 --> 01:15:03.153 line:15%
you know, good for you.
1762
01:15:03.153 --> 01:15:05.250 line:15%
You're gonna, you know, whatever it is that you do,
1763
01:15:05.250 --> 01:15:06.200 line:15%
you're going to go on.
1764
01:15:06.200 --> 01:15:07.760 line:15%
And he was just trying to forget Guantanamo.
1765
01:15:07.760 --> 01:15:10.040 line:15%
He didn't, you know, he just didn't want to remember
1766
01:15:10.040 --> 01:15:11.077 line:15%
that he had to have a lawyer
1767
01:15:11.077 --> 01:15:12.940 line:15%
and all that sort of business.
1768
01:15:12.940 --> 01:15:16.570 line:15%
And so, you know, as far as I know, because there,
1769
01:15:16.570 --> 01:15:19.480 line:15%
he was transferred with another detainee.
1770
01:15:19.480 --> 01:15:21.330 line:15%
As far as I know, he's still there
1771
01:15:21.330 --> 01:15:23.400 line:15%
but I hadn't really heard anything in several months.
1772
01:15:23.400 --> 01:15:26.010 line:15%
And, you know, I'm sure he's fine.
1773
01:15:26.010 --> 01:15:27.770 line:15%
He was a very nice guy.
1774
01:15:27.770 --> 01:15:29.943 line:15%
You know, he was very industrious and,
1775
01:15:32.060 --> 01:15:33.400 line:15%
you know, so that's.
1776
01:15:33.400 --> 01:15:35.528 line:15%
Was he transferred with another Syrian?
1777
01:15:35.528 --> 01:15:36.665 line:15%
Or another?
1778
01:15:36.665 --> 01:15:41.150 line:15%
He, was he another Syrian?
1779
01:15:41.150 --> 01:15:42.010 line:15%
It might've, you know what?
1780
01:15:42.010 --> 01:15:43.610 line:15%
He might've been another Syrian.
1781
01:15:45.360 --> 01:15:48.993 line:15%
It was, I'm not really sure.
1782
01:15:50.692 --> 01:15:52.290 line:15%
And then who's your other?
1783
01:15:52.290 --> 01:15:54.830 line:15%
And then the other client we took on,
1784
01:15:54.830 --> 01:15:58.243 line:15%
he is, his name is Obaidullah.
1785
01:16:00.960 --> 01:16:03.180 line:15%
It's one name, he has one name.
1786
01:16:03.180 --> 01:16:08.180 line:15%
I know. It's like Prince, and he is from Afghanistan.
1787
01:16:10.180 --> 01:16:11.640 line:15%
So, he's an Afghan citizen.
1788
01:16:11.640 --> 01:16:14.390 line:15%
He was picked up in Afghanistan and, you know,
1789
01:16:14.390 --> 01:16:17.150 line:15%
like all the other detainees accused of, you know,
1790
01:16:17.150 --> 01:16:19.820 line:15%
being part of an Al Qaeda cell
1791
01:16:19.820 --> 01:16:24.483 line:15%
and this, that, and the other, but he also was,
1792
01:16:25.950 --> 01:16:30.880 line:15%
had charges against him in the military commissions.
1793
01:16:30.880 --> 01:16:34.920 line:15%
And part of the reason that he wanted a new lawyer is
1794
01:16:34.920 --> 01:16:38.963 line:15%
because his past lawyer sort of,
1795
01:16:39.880 --> 01:16:41.000 line:15%
I think his past lawyer thought
1796
01:16:41.000 --> 01:16:42.770 line:15%
his military commissions was going to go forward.
1797
01:16:42.770 --> 01:16:45.120 line:15%
And that was going to be a good venue.
1798
01:16:45.120 --> 01:16:48.330 line:15%
The truth is, if you look at the military commissions,
1799
01:16:48.330 --> 01:16:51.890 line:15%
you know, rate of, it's very fast.
1800
01:16:51.890 --> 01:16:54.570 line:15%
Once somebody gets convicted, they actually go home.
1801
01:16:54.570 --> 01:16:55.600 line:15%
So, I know!
1802
01:16:55.600 --> 01:16:56.990 line:15%
In fact, at some point,
1803
01:16:56.990 --> 01:16:58.430 line:15%
when we were still representing the Kuwaitis,
1804
01:16:58.430 --> 01:16:59.637 line:15%
they were like, "The best thing that could happen
1805
01:16:59.637 --> 01:17:01.393 line:15%
"to me is if I got charged in the military commissions
1806
01:17:01.393 --> 01:17:03.720 line:15%
"and was convicted," you know, and then,
1807
01:17:03.720 --> 01:17:04.917 line:15%
or, "I'll just plead guilty
1808
01:17:04.917 --> 01:17:07.110 line:15%
"and then I'll go home" because that's what was happening.
1809
01:17:07.110 --> 01:17:08.527 line:15%
So his habeas lawyer said,
1810
01:17:08.527 --> 01:17:10.107 line:15%
"Well, if he goes to the military commissions,
1811
01:17:10.107 --> 01:17:11.197 line:15%
"he might actually go home.
1812
01:17:11.197 --> 01:17:15.760 line:15%
"So I'll agree to put his habeas case on hold."
1813
01:17:15.760 --> 01:17:18.020 line:15%
Well, then the government realized, oh, great.
1814
01:17:18.020 --> 01:17:19.610 line:15%
His habeas case is not going anywhere.
1815
01:17:19.610 --> 01:17:21.760 line:15%
And we're in a position as military commissions,
1816
01:17:21.760 --> 01:17:23.170 line:15%
we don't actually have to go forward with it.
1817
01:17:23.170 --> 01:17:24.500 line:15%
We can just sort of hang out.
1818
01:17:24.500 --> 01:17:26.130 line:15%
And so, that's what they did.
1819
01:17:26.130 --> 01:17:28.550 line:15%
So, when we came on, we filed motions
1820
01:17:28.550 --> 01:17:30.797 line:15%
with the district court judge saying,
1821
01:17:30.797 --> 01:17:33.520 line:15%
"He has nothing going on and you have to lift the stay."
1822
01:17:33.520 --> 01:17:35.270 line:15%
And he denied both times.
1823
01:17:35.270 --> 01:17:37.890 line:15%
We actually ended up appealing to the DC circuit.
1824
01:17:37.890 --> 01:17:38.880 line:15%
And oddly enough,
1825
01:17:38.880 --> 01:17:41.210 line:15%
even though the DC circuit's very conservative,
1826
01:17:41.210 --> 01:17:44.017 line:15%
they found in our favor and said,
1827
01:17:44.017 --> 01:17:47.590 line:15%
"Well, his military commissions is not going anywhere."
1828
01:17:47.590 --> 01:17:48.950 line:15%
Yes, he has charges against him
1829
01:17:48.950 --> 01:17:52.550 line:15%
but they haven't taken the next step to make it go forward.
1830
01:17:52.550 --> 01:17:57.310 line:15%
They're just, he's just charged and has no trial date set,
1831
01:17:57.310 --> 01:17:59.170 line:15%
there's no discovery going on or nothing.
1832
01:17:59.170 --> 01:18:01.230 line:15%
So, his stay was lifted.
1833
01:18:01.230 --> 01:18:02.620 line:15%
And now that case is actually,
1834
01:18:02.620 --> 01:18:05.820 line:15%
his habeas case is actually going forward.
1835
01:18:05.820 --> 01:18:07.930 line:15%
Although it's in one of the most,
1836
01:18:07.930 --> 01:18:09.700 line:15%
in front of one of the most conservative judges.
1837
01:18:09.700 --> 01:18:12.027 line:15%
So, it's sort of, as somebody said to me,
1838
01:18:12.027 --> 01:18:14.920 line:15%
"Out of the frying pan into the fire," I said, "Yeah."
1839
01:18:14.920 --> 01:18:17.080 line:15%
What message are you giving your students?
1840
01:18:17.080 --> 01:18:22.060 line:15%
I mean, are you still upbeat or are you, you know,
1841
01:18:22.060 --> 01:18:25.980 line:15%
pessimistic, optimistic, and what's the students picking up?
1842
01:18:25.980 --> 01:18:28.223 line:15%
Oh, I call it, Gitmo fatigue.
1843
01:18:29.750 --> 01:18:33.310 line:15%
You know, I mean, I think there's probably a handful of us,
1844
01:18:33.310 --> 01:18:36.010 line:15%
Tom included, that have been doing it as long as we have.
1845
01:18:36.010 --> 01:18:37.500 line:15%
I mean, eight years is, you know,
1846
01:18:37.500 --> 01:18:39.010 line:15%
I've done this kind of litigation longer
1847
01:18:39.010 --> 01:18:42.570 line:15%
than I've been anything else in my legal career.
1848
01:18:42.570 --> 01:18:44.500 line:15%
I think this, in fact, this litigation is, you know,
1849
01:18:44.500 --> 01:18:46.773 line:15%
is the majority of my legal career.
1850
01:18:48.985 --> 01:18:51.740 line:15%
You know, I personally get tired,
1851
01:18:51.740 --> 01:18:54.200 line:15%
but you know, when you have students who are so excited
1852
01:18:54.200 --> 01:18:55.760 line:15%
about it, it's so rejuvenating.
1853
01:18:55.760 --> 01:18:56.850 line:15%
I mean, students,
1854
01:18:56.850 --> 01:18:58.700 line:15%
I think that's why I like teaching, you know?
1855
01:18:58.700 --> 01:19:01.040 line:15%
and it's fun to do litigation with students
1856
01:19:01.040 --> 01:19:04.950 line:15%
because it's real, it's a real person, you know, when they,
1857
01:19:04.950 --> 01:19:09.737 line:15%
when I tell them, "Oh, the client that you, the Syrian guy
1858
01:19:09.737 --> 01:19:12.257 line:15%
"that case who's, you know, who you helped on
1859
01:19:12.257 --> 01:19:15.570 line:15%
"and you wrote that thing, he just called me from Portugal."
1860
01:19:15.570 --> 01:19:16.403 line:15%
You know what I mean?
1861
01:19:16.403 --> 01:19:17.627 line:15%
And they're like, "Oh my gosh!
1862
01:19:17.627 --> 01:19:20.330 line:15%
"Wow, that's so great. That's so cool."
1863
01:19:20.330 --> 01:19:24.153 line:15%
Students are so, they're not jaded yet.
1864
01:19:25.030 --> 01:19:28.450 line:15%
They love the law and that's infectious, you know?
1865
01:19:28.450 --> 01:19:30.860 line:15%
And you realize, you know,
1866
01:19:30.860 --> 01:19:34.470 line:15%
that the law is a powerful thing and it is neat.
1867
01:19:34.470 --> 01:19:37.080 line:15%
It's neat to be a lawyer. It's neat to practice law.
1868
01:19:37.080 --> 01:19:39.410 line:15%
And so, the students keep me, I mean,
1869
01:19:39.410 --> 01:19:41.160 line:15%
maybe that's one of the reasons I kind of went
1870
01:19:41.160 --> 01:19:44.380 line:15%
into that is because it was starting to wear on me
1871
01:19:44.380 --> 01:19:47.550 line:15%
and then with students, they're so optimistic.
1872
01:19:47.550 --> 01:19:49.403 line:15%
And so, you know, I think, I like to think
1873
01:19:49.403 --> 01:19:52.210 line:15%
that I'm a good teacher and that I keep my optimism
1874
01:19:52.210 --> 01:19:54.990 line:15%
and make them, you know, help them continue to be excited
1875
01:19:54.990 --> 01:19:56.740 line:15%
and talk about it in exciting ways.
1876
01:19:58.400 --> 01:19:59.710 line:15%
So far it's worked out, you know?
1877
01:19:59.710 --> 01:20:02.040 line:15%
I haven't had any bad evaluations yet,
1878
01:20:02.040 --> 01:20:04.275 line:15%
have all had good ones, so, you know?
1879
01:20:04.275 --> 01:20:05.600 line:15%
Well, I want to go back a little bit
1880
01:20:05.600 --> 01:20:08.450 line:15%
to the present but I want to first ask you something
1881
01:20:08.450 --> 01:20:09.880 line:15%
that you kind of mentioned,
1882
01:20:09.880 --> 01:20:12.220 line:15%
but what, I'd like some more if you know.
1883
01:20:12.220 --> 01:20:15.110 line:15%
Do you have any experience with your clients
1884
01:20:15.110 --> 01:20:19.830 line:15%
and doctors and the medical situations in Guantanamo?
1885
01:20:22.130 --> 01:20:26.240 line:15%
You know, the real, I'd say the sort
1886
01:20:26.240 --> 01:20:31.240 line:15%
of most substantial experience was when we had our client,
1887
01:20:32.000 --> 01:20:34.330 line:15%
our Kuwaiti clients go on hunger strike.
1888
01:20:34.330 --> 01:20:35.957 line:15%
And that was also another, I mean,
1889
01:20:35.957 --> 01:20:39.490 line:15%
there are just so many amazing facets
1890
01:20:39.490 --> 01:20:42.383 line:15%
to doing this kind of work.
1891
01:20:45.850 --> 01:20:47.880 line:15%
Yeah, I mean, you know, before Guantanamo,
1892
01:20:47.880 --> 01:20:51.140 line:15%
my clients, I'd meet my clients in the Four Seasons lounge,
1893
01:20:51.140 --> 01:20:52.583 line:15%
you know, in New York.
1894
01:20:54.030 --> 01:20:57.040 line:15%
So, we had some clients go on hunger strike
1895
01:20:57.040 --> 01:20:59.290 line:15%
and two of them stayed on hunger strike.
1896
01:20:59.290 --> 01:21:01.180 line:15%
One was Fouzi.
1897
01:21:01.180 --> 01:21:03.390 line:15%
And the father of Khalid Al Odah,
1898
01:21:03.390 --> 01:21:08.000 line:15%
who sort of really led the Kuwaiti effort.
1899
01:21:08.000 --> 01:21:12.150 line:15%
And so, we initially, you know,
1900
01:21:12.150 --> 01:21:14.840 line:15%
we sort of came at it as lawyers,
1901
01:21:14.840 --> 01:21:18.060 line:15%
what can we do as lawyers to make the situation better?
1902
01:21:18.060 --> 01:21:18.960 line:15%
And you know, what can we do?
1903
01:21:18.960 --> 01:21:21.830 line:15%
And so, I started talking to doctors.
1904
01:21:21.830 --> 01:21:26.450 line:15%
Actually, one of the doctors was just recently,
1905
01:21:26.450 --> 01:21:29.230 line:15%
there was a big article on him, Stephen Xenakis?
1906
01:21:29.230 --> 01:21:30.063 line:15%
I don't know if you've heard of him.
1907
01:21:30.063 --> 01:21:30.900 line:15%
Hm, yeah.
If you get a chance,
1908
01:21:30.900 --> 01:21:32.430 line:15%
you should interview him.
1909
01:21:32.430 --> 01:21:35.110 line:15%
He is working on Omar Khadr's case.
1910
01:21:35.110 --> 01:21:38.343 line:15%
But when I met him, he hadn't really done,
1911
01:21:39.230 --> 01:21:41.190 line:15%
I don't think he'd actually done anything with detainees.
1912
01:21:41.190 --> 01:21:44.180 line:15%
I think we might've been the first detainee case
1913
01:21:44.180 --> 01:21:46.320 line:15%
that he actually worked on.
1914
01:21:46.320 --> 01:21:49.330 line:15%
Stephen Xenakis, retired brigadier general.
1915
01:21:49.330 --> 01:21:53.181 line:15%
And I was looking for doctors to try
1916
01:21:53.181 --> 01:21:56.240 line:15%
to figure out the whole hunger strike thing.
1917
01:21:56.240 --> 01:21:58.860 line:15%
I mean, didn't know anything about hunger strikes, you know?
1918
01:21:58.860 --> 01:22:03.100 line:15%
And so, he tutored me on, you know,
1919
01:22:03.100 --> 01:22:04.560 line:15%
what is a hunger strike about?
1920
01:22:04.560 --> 01:22:06.800 line:15%
What does it mean to the person who's on it?
1921
01:22:06.800 --> 01:22:08.970 line:15%
All these different, you know, what are the,
1922
01:22:08.970 --> 01:22:12.170 line:15%
what does the, you know, World Medical Association, WMA,
1923
01:22:12.170 --> 01:22:13.003 line:15%
what did they say about it?
1924
01:22:13.003 --> 01:22:14.403 line:15%
You know, what are the rules?
1925
01:22:15.360 --> 01:22:19.470 line:15%
And then we actually filed some motions
1926
01:22:19.470 --> 01:22:22.210 line:15%
in court with using Dr. Xenakis
1927
01:22:22.210 --> 01:22:25.500 line:15%
and another doctor using their expert, you know,
1928
01:22:25.500 --> 01:22:29.590 line:15%
declarations or affidavits to try to get, you know,
1929
01:22:29.590 --> 01:22:31.130 line:15%
one of the most frustrating things was,
1930
01:22:31.130 --> 01:22:33.440 line:15%
can you imagine having a client
1931
01:22:33.440 --> 01:22:35.460 line:15%
in a prison here be on hunger strike?
1932
01:22:35.460 --> 01:22:40.330 line:15%
That's pretty you know, difficult situation,
1933
01:22:40.330 --> 01:22:43.720 line:15%
but your client in Guantanamo that you can't call?
1934
01:22:43.720 --> 01:22:45.330 line:15%
That if he, if they write you a letter,
1935
01:22:45.330 --> 01:22:48.140 line:15%
you get it like, you know, four weeks later,
1936
01:22:48.140 --> 01:22:50.180 line:15%
and to learn that they're on hunger strike
1937
01:22:50.180 --> 01:22:52.290 line:15%
and the government is like, you know?
1938
01:22:53.737 --> 01:22:57.100 line:15%
"Yeah. We'll tell you if something happens, maybe."
1939
01:22:57.100 --> 01:22:57.933 line:15%
You know?
1940
01:22:57.933 --> 01:22:59.282 line:15%
I mean, so there's, you know,
1941
01:22:59.282 --> 01:23:00.800 line:15%
you have no communication with them
1942
01:23:00.800 --> 01:23:02.413 line:15%
and you know they're on hunger strike and we had to go,
1943
01:23:02.413 --> 01:23:05.430 line:15%
I mean, we literally had to petition the court
1944
01:23:05.430 --> 01:23:09.050 line:15%
to let us fly down there like within a week
1945
01:23:09.050 --> 01:23:10.627 line:15%
because the government was just like,
1946
01:23:10.627 --> 01:23:14.237 line:15%
"No, you're supposed to give 21 days advanced notice.
1947
01:23:14.237 --> 01:23:15.777 line:15%
"It doesn't matter if they're on hunger strike.
1948
01:23:15.777 --> 01:23:17.187 line:15%
"And by the way that, you know,
1949
01:23:17.187 --> 01:23:19.280 line:15%
"there's only three of your clients on hunger strike."
1950
01:23:19.280 --> 01:23:21.560 line:15%
Well, we, you get the judge to rule in our favor.
1951
01:23:21.560 --> 01:23:22.880 line:15%
We go to Guantanamo within a week.
1952
01:23:22.880 --> 01:23:24.540 line:15%
There's five guys on hunger strike.
1953
01:23:24.540 --> 01:23:25.383 line:15%
It was different information
1954
01:23:25.383 --> 01:23:27.810 line:15%
than what the government told us, you know?
1955
01:23:27.810 --> 01:23:29.630 line:15%
So, what we tried to get the court was
1956
01:23:29.630 --> 01:23:33.160 line:15%
we wanted regular medical updates from the government.
1957
01:23:33.160 --> 01:23:35.960 line:15%
It sounds very, I know, simple.
1958
01:23:35.960 --> 01:23:38.940 line:15%
Yeah. It's very basic, regular medical updates.
1959
01:23:38.940 --> 01:23:43.940 line:15%
And we wanted the two hunger strikers who stayed
1960
01:23:44.990 --> 01:23:48.430 line:15%
on hunger strike to be able to have a call home
1961
01:23:48.430 --> 01:23:50.970 line:15%
to their families because they,
1962
01:23:50.970 --> 01:23:53.030 line:15%
up until like a year or so ago,
1963
01:23:53.030 --> 01:23:56.370 line:15%
were not allowed phone calls with their families.
1964
01:23:56.370 --> 01:23:58.837 line:15%
And so, you know, we said,
1965
01:23:58.837 --> 01:24:01.457 line:15%
"For all these reasons, and using,
1966
01:24:01.457 --> 01:24:05.180 line:15%
"relying on the doctors affidavits,"
1967
01:24:05.180 --> 01:24:07.383 line:15%
and of course we lost.
1968
01:24:08.800 --> 01:24:09.680 line:15%
We lost.
Well, of course.
1969
01:24:09.680 --> 01:24:12.150 line:15%
Yeah, because I think everything
1970
01:24:12.150 --> 01:24:15.700 line:15%
that we ever filed trying to get something for our clients,
1971
01:24:15.700 --> 01:24:17.870 line:15%
I tried to get them books,
1972
01:24:17.870 --> 01:24:20.550 line:15%
tried to get more physical exercise.
1973
01:24:20.550 --> 01:24:22.790 line:15%
Either the court didn't even bother to rule on it
1974
01:24:22.790 --> 01:24:26.150 line:15%
which is the same as losing or ruled against us.
1975
01:24:26.150 --> 01:24:29.660 line:15%
So, I don't think a single motion that was outside
1976
01:24:29.660 --> 01:24:33.070 line:15%
of sort of the, a single motion that had to do
1977
01:24:33.070 --> 01:24:35.550 line:15%
with their conditions of confinement.
1978
01:24:35.550 --> 01:24:37.700 line:15%
We didn't win a single motion
1979
01:24:37.700 --> 01:24:39.490 line:15%
or the court didn't rule on it, which is the same.
1980
01:24:39.490 --> 01:24:44.490 line:15%
So, yeah, so I was not necessarily surprised.
1981
01:24:45.920 --> 01:24:49.830 line:15%
I will say, other detainees with who were
1982
01:24:49.830 --> 01:24:52.690 line:15%
in front of other judges were able to get more traction
1983
01:24:52.690 --> 01:24:55.680 line:15%
with their judges regarding hunger strikes
1984
01:24:56.770 --> 01:24:58.480 line:15%
but with our judge, yeah.
1985
01:24:58.480 --> 01:25:01.337 line:15%
She just was like, "Well, there's doctors down there.
1986
01:25:01.337 --> 01:25:04.167 line:15%
"They've got control of the situation.
1987
01:25:04.167 --> 01:25:05.967 line:15%
"You know, don't see why you need a medical update
1988
01:25:05.967 --> 01:25:08.540 line:15%
"because even if you did get one, what would you do?"
1989
01:25:08.540 --> 01:25:11.660 line:15%
I know! It's like, you know?
1990
01:25:11.660 --> 01:25:16.600 line:15%
So, that began my great relationship with Stephen Xenakis.
1991
01:25:16.600 --> 01:25:19.301 line:15%
And he, after that, really started doing a lot
1992
01:25:19.301 --> 01:25:24.301 line:15%
of work on behalf of detainees, he would speak on panels.
1993
01:25:24.430 --> 01:25:29.430 line:15%
He would talk to the press and we actually co-wrote,
1994
01:25:31.970 --> 01:25:32.803 line:15%
I should send it to you.
1995
01:25:32.803 --> 01:25:35.840 line:15%
In fact, I will, co-wrote an article together
1996
01:25:35.840 --> 01:25:37.750 line:15%
on the hunger strikes at Guantanamo.
1997
01:25:37.750 --> 01:25:41.430 line:15%
So, it's an article in the Whittier Law Review
1998
01:25:41.430 --> 01:25:45.590 line:15%
written by a psychiatrist, military, and a lawyer.
1999
01:25:45.590 --> 01:25:47.550 line:15%
And so, we're trying to, you know,
2000
01:25:47.550 --> 01:25:49.570 line:15%
have those two perspectives
2001
01:25:49.570 --> 01:25:51.503 line:15%
and it addresses the hunger strikes.
2002
01:25:52.681 --> 01:25:55.890 line:15%
So, that was sort of the, I'd say, the extent.
2003
01:25:55.890 --> 01:25:57.340 line:15%
That whole hunger strike.
2004
01:25:57.340 --> 01:26:00.050 line:15%
And then, just staying in touch with Steve
2005
01:26:00.050 --> 01:26:02.360 line:15%
and speaking on different panels with him,
2006
01:26:02.360 --> 01:26:05.930 line:15%
writing an article together, and, you know, sort of,
2007
01:26:05.930 --> 01:26:09.900 line:15%
kind of following his path
2008
01:26:09.900 --> 01:26:13.993 line:15%
with the work he's done regarding Guantanamo.
2009
01:26:14.920 --> 01:26:17.920 line:15%
Well, have you heard of any of your clients
2010
01:26:17.920 --> 01:26:21.050 line:15%
either seeing a doctor for some serious reason
2011
01:26:21.050 --> 01:26:23.883 line:15%
or seeing a psychiatrist for a suit?
2012
01:26:24.810 --> 01:26:27.610 line:15%
You know, I know in the litigation,
2013
01:26:27.610 --> 01:26:30.410 line:15%
a lot of the lawyers have wanted their clients
2014
01:26:30.410 --> 01:26:33.250 line:15%
to see a psychiatrist.
2015
01:26:33.250 --> 01:26:37.210 line:15%
You know, I think it's not unusual that you might do that
2016
01:26:37.210 --> 01:26:40.790 line:15%
in any case in which you had an individual client
2017
01:26:40.790 --> 01:26:45.300 line:15%
who's either been, you know, had serious torture,
2018
01:26:45.300 --> 01:26:48.281 line:15%
abuse or been in prison or anything like that.
2019
01:26:48.281 --> 01:26:51.413 line:15%
It's not, it wouldn't be unusual to have them,
2020
01:26:52.360 --> 01:26:53.833 line:15%
you know, checked out.
2021
01:26:55.970 --> 01:26:58.290 line:15%
So I, you know, we had talked
2022
01:26:58.290 --> 01:27:02.450 line:15%
about it with some of our Kuwait clients
2023
01:27:02.450 --> 01:27:03.807 line:15%
and they were just like,
2024
01:27:03.807 --> 01:27:07.560 line:15%
"I don't need to see a head doctor," you know?
2025
01:27:07.560 --> 01:27:09.283 line:15%
So, okay.
2026
01:27:10.510 --> 01:27:14.900 line:15%
And at that time too, you know, we still were not
2027
01:27:14.900 --> 01:27:16.220 line:15%
in the habeas hearing,
2028
01:27:16.220 --> 01:27:19.020 line:15%
so we weren't really allowed
2029
01:27:19.020 --> 01:27:21.420 line:15%
to even bring a doctor down there, you know,
2030
01:27:21.420 --> 01:27:24.420 line:15%
so that now you have a sort of different situation
2031
01:27:24.420 --> 01:27:26.300 line:15%
where you have cases going forward so that some
2032
01:27:26.300 --> 01:27:29.600 line:15%
of the courts are actually allowing doctors down there.
2033
01:27:29.600 --> 01:27:32.200 line:15%
Back then, nobody was going down there
2034
01:27:32.200 --> 01:27:33.360 line:15%
because the cases weren't going forward.
2035
01:27:33.360 --> 01:27:38.360 line:15%
So, I know that when we first went down there
2036
01:27:41.070 --> 01:27:43.437 line:15%
and started asking, you know, like,
2037
01:27:43.437 --> 01:27:45.297 line:15%
"How are you being treated?
2038
01:27:45.297 --> 01:27:46.180 line:15%
"How's your health?"
2039
01:27:46.180 --> 01:27:47.400 line:15%
This, that, and the other,
2040
01:27:47.400 --> 01:27:51.200 line:15%
they talked a lot about getting,
2041
01:27:51.200 --> 01:27:53.710 line:15%
about some of the doctors that they had seen.
2042
01:27:53.710 --> 01:27:58.090 line:15%
And I know this is a hugely controversial area.
2043
01:27:58.090 --> 01:28:01.050 line:15%
And I think it's sort of a fascinating one
2044
01:28:01.050 --> 01:28:03.983 line:15%
that some of the doctors who've been down there are being,
2045
01:28:05.832 --> 01:28:06.810 line:15%
you know, complained about
2046
01:28:06.810 --> 01:28:09.780 line:15%
for violating their ethical responsibilities
2047
01:28:10.650 --> 01:28:13.210 line:15%
to their profession and being brought before their board
2048
01:28:13.210 --> 01:28:16.313 line:15%
or at least being, you know, complaints lodged against them.
2049
01:28:17.197 --> 01:28:19.000 line:15%
But a lot of my clients said, yeah, they were,
2050
01:28:19.000 --> 01:28:21.050 line:15%
they'd see the doctor about, you know,
2051
01:28:21.050 --> 01:28:24.500 line:15%
their headaches or whatever that they had.
2052
01:28:24.500 --> 01:28:26.960 line:15%
And they were getting, you know,
2053
01:28:26.960 --> 01:28:29.910 line:15%
drugs that they weren't told what the drugs were
2054
01:28:29.910 --> 01:28:32.230 line:15%
that they felt that it made them tired all the time
2055
01:28:32.230 --> 01:28:33.910 line:15%
or kept them awake all the time.
2056
01:28:33.910 --> 01:28:38.910 line:15%
And basically my sense was is that they were not,
2057
01:28:39.250 --> 01:28:40.610 line:15%
even though I know this, you know,
2058
01:28:40.610 --> 01:28:42.210 line:15%
any press release from the government
2059
01:28:42.210 --> 01:28:44.810 line:15%
that you'll read going back all the way to 2002,
2060
01:28:44.810 --> 01:28:46.150 line:15%
they got the best medical care.
2061
01:28:46.150 --> 01:28:48.520 line:15%
They got better medical care than they ever would've gotten
2062
01:28:48.520 --> 01:28:50.890 line:15%
in their own country, blah, blah, blah.
2063
01:28:50.890 --> 01:28:52.410 line:15%
You know, from my clients,
2064
01:28:52.410 --> 01:28:56.160 line:15%
what they told me was sort of a different story, you know?
2065
01:28:56.160 --> 01:29:00.780 line:15%
That maybe they, if they had a broken bone or something,
2066
01:29:00.780 --> 01:29:03.190 line:15%
they got, you know, they got it set very well.
2067
01:29:03.190 --> 01:29:06.380 line:15%
But I think that, you know, there was a whole,
2068
01:29:06.380 --> 01:29:10.090 line:15%
the doctors were there from what I understand to, yes,
2069
01:29:10.090 --> 01:29:13.620 line:15%
make sure that the detainees were kept in good health
2070
01:29:13.620 --> 01:29:16.970 line:15%
but they were also there for the mission
2071
01:29:16.970 --> 01:29:20.190 line:15%
which was to break them, to interrogate them,
2072
01:29:20.190 --> 01:29:23.170 line:15%
and to learn about them as much as possible
2073
01:29:23.170 --> 01:29:25.630 line:15%
even if they were the doctors who were setting the bones
2074
01:29:25.630 --> 01:29:29.853 line:15%
or doing, giving, you know, dispensing ibuprofen,
2075
01:29:30.760 --> 01:29:33.930 line:15%
is that, that was the mission.
2076
01:29:33.930 --> 01:29:37.360 line:15%
And I know from what my clients said, that, you know,
2077
01:29:37.360 --> 01:29:41.370 line:15%
they weren't, they were not, you know, they'd never felt
2078
01:29:41.370 --> 01:29:46.260 line:15%
like there was patient physician confidentiality.
2079
01:29:46.260 --> 01:29:47.093 line:15%
I mean, it was,
2080
01:29:47.093 --> 01:29:48.930 line:15%
they just said, that was, you know, are you kidding?
2081
01:29:48.930 --> 01:29:51.700 line:15%
That was, you know, it wasn't my doctor
2082
01:29:51.700 --> 01:29:52.730 line:15%
I couldn't confide in him.
2083
01:29:52.730 --> 01:29:55.660 line:15%
He was, you know, he was against me.
2084
01:29:55.660 --> 01:29:57.760 line:15%
He thought I was a terrorist, you know?
2085
01:29:57.760 --> 01:30:02.462 line:15%
So, it's very, I think it's very, very disturbing.
2086
01:30:02.462 --> 01:30:03.528 line:15%
Had you heard of,
2087
01:30:03.528 --> 01:30:04.503 line:15%
did anybody kind of tell you
2088
01:30:04.503 --> 01:30:07.440 line:15%
that they were told they got inoculations
2089
01:30:07.440 --> 01:30:09.790 line:15%
but in fact that that might've been some other?
2090
01:30:11.100 --> 01:30:14.120 line:15%
I did not, I did not hear that from any of my clients.
2091
01:30:14.120 --> 01:30:14.980 line:15%
Did you hear anything
2092
01:30:14.980 --> 01:30:16.570 line:15%
about people being interrogated
2093
01:30:16.570 --> 01:30:19.730 line:15%
while the medical professional was working on them?
2094
01:30:19.730 --> 01:30:21.120 line:15%
Yeah.
You did?
2095
01:30:21.120 --> 01:30:24.170 line:15%
From, not from my clients, but, you know, I mean,
2096
01:30:24.170 --> 01:30:26.180 line:15%
I talked to a lot of other lawyers
2097
01:30:26.180 --> 01:30:28.760 line:15%
and I mean, I think, you know, overall my,
2098
01:30:28.760 --> 01:30:31.020 line:15%
like I said, my sense is from, you know,
2099
01:30:31.020 --> 01:30:34.020 line:15%
talking to my clients and talking to other lawyers
2100
01:30:34.020 --> 01:30:37.270 line:15%
that a lot of the doctors were involved in, you know,
2101
01:30:37.270 --> 01:30:38.690 line:15%
I mean, and I think it's documented
2102
01:30:38.690 --> 01:30:43.140 line:15%
in several of the more egregious cases with what's his name?
2103
01:30:43.140 --> 01:30:46.095 line:15%
Al-Qahtani, you know,
2104
01:30:46.095 --> 01:30:48.010 line:15%
and with the hunger, I mean,
2105
01:30:48.010 --> 01:30:51.210 line:15%
with the hunger strike stuff that was going on, you know,
2106
01:30:51.210 --> 01:30:53.590 line:15%
my clients were getting force fed, were, you know,
2107
01:30:53.590 --> 01:30:55.630 line:15%
told us stories about, you know,
2108
01:30:55.630 --> 01:30:58.823 line:15%
how they would jam the tube up their nose and,
2109
01:30:59.890 --> 01:31:01.000 line:15%
you know, move it around.
2110
01:31:01.000 --> 01:31:01.880 line:15%
And, you know, I mean,
2111
01:31:01.880 --> 01:31:03.950 line:15%
whether or not you believe them, it's like,
2112
01:31:03.950 --> 01:31:05.390 line:15%
why would they make that up?
2113
01:31:05.390 --> 01:31:07.160 line:15%
You know? I don't know.
2114
01:31:07.160 --> 01:31:10.100 line:15%
And I heard those stories from a lot of other lawyers.
2115
01:31:10.100 --> 01:31:11.550 line:15%
How about dentists?
2116
01:31:13.054 --> 01:31:14.630 line:15%
(Kristine laughs)
2117
01:31:14.630 --> 01:31:18.520 line:15%
I'm laughing because for some strange reason
2118
01:31:18.520 --> 01:31:20.060 line:15%
when we went down there for the first time,
2119
01:31:20.060 --> 01:31:22.060 line:15%
they said they had never seen a dentist.
2120
01:31:22.060 --> 01:31:24.960 line:15%
And so, when we came back, I mentioned that,
2121
01:31:24.960 --> 01:31:26.320 line:15%
We had a press conference.
2122
01:31:26.320 --> 01:31:29.000 line:15%
I mentioned that just kind of randomly.
2123
01:31:29.000 --> 01:31:30.690 line:15%
And so, it was in the papers.
2124
01:31:30.690 --> 01:31:31.860 line:15%
And then the next visit I went down, he's like,
2125
01:31:31.860 --> 01:31:33.574 line:15%
"Hey, I saw, they brought in some dentists."
2126
01:31:33.574 --> 01:31:36.080 line:15%
(laughs) And I said, "That's great."
2127
01:31:36.080 --> 01:31:38.220 line:15%
That was like another thing, one, one tiny little thing
2128
01:31:38.220 --> 01:31:40.513 line:15%
I felt like I'd accomplished.
2129
01:31:45.160 --> 01:31:47.050 line:15%
Can you just describe the special toothbrush
2130
01:31:47.050 --> 01:31:47.883 line:15%
you'd mentioned earlier?
2131
01:31:47.883 --> 01:31:49.300 line:15%
Like, what that was?
2132
01:31:49.300 --> 01:31:51.670 line:15%
Yes. I think I actually still have one.
2133
01:31:51.670 --> 01:31:53.930 line:15%
Because one of my clients gave me his.
2134
01:31:53.930 --> 01:31:55.620 line:15%
He said, "Here, you know, you should,"
2135
01:31:55.620 --> 01:32:00.260 line:15%
it is a toothbrush that about this short,
2136
01:32:00.260 --> 01:32:02.750 line:15%
I guess, so that you can't, you know,
2137
01:32:02.750 --> 01:32:05.310 line:15%
like stab somebody 'cause so it's, you know, short.
2138
01:32:05.310 --> 01:32:07.050 line:15%
You can't do too much damage.
2139
01:32:07.050 --> 01:32:10.633 line:15%
And it is, you know, kind of a rounded.
2140
01:32:12.430 --> 01:32:16.750 line:15%
It's rounded because one of my clients was telling me
2141
01:32:16.750 --> 01:32:21.750 line:15%
early on that one of, not him,
2142
01:32:21.830 --> 01:32:25.230 line:15%
another detainee there had like a toothache.
2143
01:32:25.230 --> 01:32:27.490 line:15%
And so it was trying to use the toothbrush
2144
01:32:27.490 --> 01:32:29.720 line:15%
to like pull his own tooth
2145
01:32:29.720 --> 01:32:32.653 line:15%
because they wouldn't see him or something like that.
2146
01:32:33.851 --> 01:32:35.920 line:15%
I know. I was just like, ugh.
2147
01:32:35.920 --> 01:32:37.550 line:15%
So it's, 'cause it looks almost
2148
01:32:37.550 --> 01:32:40.290 line:15%
like a little bit of a sort of shovel, I guess,
2149
01:32:40.290 --> 01:32:42.100 line:15%
so that you can stick your thumb on the,
2150
01:32:42.100 --> 01:32:43.873 line:15%
it's so short, you know?
2151
01:32:44.710 --> 01:32:46.915 line:15%
Yeah, I think I still have that actually.
2152
01:32:46.915 --> 01:32:48.020 line:15%
I kept it as a memento.
I have only
2153
01:32:48.020 --> 01:32:49.060 line:15%
a few more questions.
2154
01:32:49.060 --> 01:32:52.350 line:15%
One is, did you get to speak to guards in DC,
2155
01:32:52.350 --> 01:32:56.210 line:15%
some sympathetic guards at all?
2156
01:32:56.210 --> 01:32:57.253 line:15%
Guards?
Yeah.
2157
01:32:58.472 --> 01:32:59.950 line:15%
Where they might've been taught,
2158
01:32:59.950 --> 01:33:02.310 line:15%
they might've given extra food to a prisoner
2159
01:33:02.310 --> 01:33:05.850 line:15%
or otherwise been nice to any of the prisoners?
2160
01:33:05.850 --> 01:33:09.750 line:15%
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's interesting.
2161
01:33:09.750 --> 01:33:11.190 line:15%
The military, ah, you know,
2162
01:33:11.190 --> 01:33:16.060 line:15%
it's like military to me is it's sort of a,
2163
01:33:16.060 --> 01:33:17.800 line:15%
it's a bit of an enigma.
2164
01:33:17.800 --> 01:33:20.230 line:15%
You know, my, I told you, my father was in the military.
2165
01:33:20.230 --> 01:33:21.310 line:15%
My mother was in the military.
2166
01:33:21.310 --> 01:33:23.790 line:15%
My grandfather was in the military.
2167
01:33:23.790 --> 01:33:27.160 line:15%
My other grandfather was a guerrilla in the Philippines
2168
01:33:27.160 --> 01:33:28.170 line:15%
with the U.S. military.
2169
01:33:28.170 --> 01:33:30.710 line:15%
I mean, so, you know, it's like, I have good feelings
2170
01:33:30.710 --> 01:33:34.410 line:15%
about the military, but then Guantanamo kind of came along
2171
01:33:34.410 --> 01:33:35.460 line:15%
and it was like, what?
2172
01:33:35.460 --> 01:33:36.293 line:15%
You know?
2173
01:33:37.310 --> 01:33:39.110 line:15%
And then I also, but I also realized
2174
01:33:39.110 --> 01:33:39.943 line:15%
that there were a lot of people
2175
01:33:39.943 --> 01:33:42.980 line:15%
in the military sort of behind closed doors
2176
01:33:42.980 --> 01:33:45.680 line:15%
who were advocating to follow the Geneva conventions,
2177
01:33:45.680 --> 01:33:48.460 line:15%
who were advocating to follow some rule of law,
2178
01:33:48.460 --> 01:33:52.240 line:15%
to have hearings, to give better treatment, to, you know,
2179
01:33:52.240 --> 01:33:55.260 line:15%
allow a lot of different,
2180
01:33:55.260 --> 01:33:58.340 line:15%
to give them POW status and that the, you know,
2181
01:33:58.340 --> 01:34:00.210 line:15%
Bush administration just said, "No way."
2182
01:34:00.210 --> 01:34:03.580 line:15%
Where, you know, they basically followed the civilians
2183
01:34:03.580 --> 01:34:04.880 line:15%
in the Defense Department.
2184
01:34:05.970 --> 01:34:07.730 line:15%
So, when I learned that, I had,
2185
01:34:07.730 --> 01:34:09.130 line:15%
I sort of had then sort of
2186
01:34:09.130 --> 01:34:11.400 line:15%
a little bit more different feelings about the military.
2187
01:34:11.400 --> 01:34:13.845 line:15%
And I also sort of know, you know,
2188
01:34:13.845 --> 01:34:17.210 line:15%
when you're at a lower level, I mean,
2189
01:34:17.210 --> 01:34:19.270 line:15%
you just follow, you're just following orders.
2190
01:34:19.270 --> 01:34:20.770 line:15%
I mean, that's what you're supposed to do.
2191
01:34:20.770 --> 01:34:22.310 line:15%
You know, they don't put people in the military
2192
01:34:22.310 --> 01:34:25.143 line:15%
who are independent thinkers until like, much later.
2193
01:34:26.050 --> 01:34:29.970 line:15%
So, even the guards who I thought if they were jerks
2194
01:34:29.970 --> 01:34:33.570 line:15%
or mean to the detainees, I really, I didn't blame them.
2195
01:34:33.570 --> 01:34:34.410 line:15%
You know, they were,
2196
01:34:34.410 --> 01:34:37.120 line:15%
they were trying to do what they thought was
2197
01:34:37.120 --> 01:34:40.490 line:15%
what their superiors wanted them to do for their country.
2198
01:34:40.490 --> 01:34:41.323 line:15%
You know?
2199
01:34:41.323 --> 01:34:42.640 line:15%
I mean, everyone should have their own moral compass.
2200
01:34:42.640 --> 01:34:44.200 line:15%
And at some point, you know, you can't,
2201
01:34:44.200 --> 01:34:47.647 line:15%
you gotta stick within it, but there were,
2202
01:34:47.647 --> 01:34:50.210 line:15%
you know, there were guards who said,
2203
01:34:50.210 --> 01:34:51.907 line:15%
you know, things to me like,
2204
01:34:51.907 --> 01:34:56.907 line:15%
I know one guard said that, you know,
2205
01:34:57.270 --> 01:34:58.927 line:15%
like I think, I think one guard said like,
2206
01:34:58.927 --> 01:35:01.477 line:15%
"We should be following the Geneva conventions" or,
2207
01:35:03.150 --> 01:35:07.660 line:15%
you know, "This is really a waste of our time,"
2208
01:35:07.660 --> 01:35:10.287 line:15%
which sounds, which I think was his way of saying,
2209
01:35:10.287 --> 01:35:13.743 line:15%
"We have a lot of innocent people in here," you know?
2210
01:35:14.730 --> 01:35:16.010 line:15%
And, you know, things like that,
2211
01:35:16.010 --> 01:35:18.530 line:15%
sort of not coming out and saying it.
2212
01:35:18.530 --> 01:35:21.280 line:15%
And also because they had to be very careful
2213
01:35:21.280 --> 01:35:23.320 line:15%
of what they said, because we were lawyers
2214
01:35:23.320 --> 01:35:26.270 line:15%
and they knew we'd go back and talk to the press, you know?
2215
01:35:27.370 --> 01:35:31.083 line:15%
But also, interestingly enough, you know, they all at least,
2216
01:35:32.230 --> 01:35:34.393 line:15%
you know, when you're on the camp,
2217
01:35:35.600 --> 01:35:37.750 line:15%
they all wore black tape over their names
2218
01:35:37.750 --> 01:35:41.340 line:15%
so that the detainees would not know who they were.
2219
01:35:41.340 --> 01:35:43.590 line:15%
And then when they started getting a lot of complaints
2220
01:35:43.590 --> 01:35:45.320 line:15%
like, you know, how are we supposed to complain
2221
01:35:45.320 --> 01:35:47.570 line:15%
about particular guards who are abusing us?
2222
01:35:47.570 --> 01:35:49.367 line:15%
And I think somebody high up must've said, like,
2223
01:35:49.367 --> 01:35:52.830 line:15%
"We can't have anonymous soldiers," you know?
2224
01:35:52.830 --> 01:35:55.880 line:15%
And so then they had numbers so that the detainee,
2225
01:35:55.880 --> 01:35:57.760 line:15%
if they wanted to actually bring a complaint
2226
01:35:57.760 --> 01:36:00.670 line:15%
about a guard they could, they would do their number.
2227
01:36:00.670 --> 01:36:03.727 line:15%
I know. But that took several years to get to that, so.
2228
01:36:05.299 --> 01:36:06.271 line:15%
I have a couple questions,
2229
01:36:06.271 --> 01:36:08.230 line:15%
but did you have a question?
2230
01:36:08.230 --> 01:36:10.600 line:15%
You might get to this, but I'd be very interested
2231
01:36:10.600 --> 01:36:15.600 line:15%
in knowing, number one, your feelings, the,
2232
01:36:16.160 --> 01:36:19.570 line:15%
and you've kind of touched on this, but how do you feel
2233
01:36:19.570 --> 01:36:23.853 line:15%
about your choice of law as a profession?
2234
01:36:26.060 --> 01:36:29.793 line:15%
And second, have your feelings about your country changed?
2235
01:36:31.750 --> 01:36:36.400 line:15%
Yes. And many times over the past several years (laughs).
2236
01:36:36.400 --> 01:36:41.400 line:15%
But I'll start with the first question, which is, you know,
2237
01:36:41.790 --> 01:36:46.790 line:15%
in the beginning, when we got so much resistance,
2238
01:36:46.830 --> 01:36:48.687 line:15%
and Tom and I, at some point, we'd say, you know,
2239
01:36:48.687 --> 01:36:52.460 line:15%
"If some of this, even this," you know,
2240
01:36:52.460 --> 01:36:54.160 line:15%
I've always been sort of one to challenge authority,
2241
01:36:54.160 --> 01:36:54.993 line:15%
just like Tom.
2242
01:36:54.993 --> 01:36:57.070 line:15%
So, I think it's, that sort of motivated us a little bit,
2243
01:36:57.070 --> 01:36:59.900 line:15%
the fact that so many people were against it, like,
2244
01:36:59.900 --> 01:37:01.350 line:15%
you know, we'll show you
2245
01:37:02.860 --> 01:37:05.800 line:15%
and, you know, so it's sort of,
2246
01:37:05.800 --> 01:37:08.446 line:15%
it was a little bit of that, you know,
2247
01:37:08.446 --> 01:37:12.530 line:15%
and I've always felt, I guess,
2248
01:37:12.530 --> 01:37:17.530 line:15%
I've always felt very strongly about the law.
2249
01:37:18.270 --> 01:37:20.010 line:15%
You know, I mean the law,
2250
01:37:20.010 --> 01:37:23.410 line:15%
sort of the law is a law, and yes, some laws are bad
2251
01:37:23.410 --> 01:37:25.120 line:15%
but you know, there's, the law is,
2252
01:37:25.120 --> 01:37:27.880 line:15%
that's why we're a great country
2253
01:37:27.880 --> 01:37:28.850 line:15%
because we believe in the law.
2254
01:37:28.850 --> 01:37:30.690 line:15%
We don't have dictators, we don't have, you know?
2255
01:37:30.690 --> 01:37:32.950 line:15%
So in that sense, you know,
2256
01:37:32.950 --> 01:37:37.270 line:15%
sort of when I would get sort of down on myself or wonder,
2257
01:37:37.270 --> 01:37:40.230 line:15%
am I representing terrorist, is he really a terrorist?
2258
01:37:40.230 --> 01:37:42.410 line:15%
Am I doing the wrong thing?
2259
01:37:42.410 --> 01:37:43.780 line:15%
I'd sort of bring myself back to that.
2260
01:37:43.780 --> 01:37:46.330 line:15%
You know, what I'm really doing.
2261
01:37:46.330 --> 01:37:50.870 line:15%
If I, you know, putting the individual person aside,
2262
01:37:50.870 --> 01:37:54.580 line:15%
you know, I'm doing what I was trained to do
2263
01:37:54.580 --> 01:37:56.730 line:15%
and what I believe very strongly in, you know,
2264
01:37:56.730 --> 01:38:01.510 line:15%
that we are a country of laws, the law matters, right?
2265
01:38:01.510 --> 01:38:03.050 line:15%
But there were times when, you know,
2266
01:38:03.050 --> 01:38:05.627 line:15%
like when I started representing Omar and you know,
2267
01:38:05.627 --> 01:38:08.287 line:15%
"Oh my gosh, he's accused of killing a U.S. soldier.
2268
01:38:08.287 --> 01:38:09.120 line:15%
"What if he did?
2269
01:38:09.120 --> 01:38:10.687 line:15%
"What does that, you know,
2270
01:38:10.687 --> 01:38:12.167 line:15%
"what does that make me?
2271
01:38:12.167 --> 01:38:14.397 line:15%
"What does that mean for me personally?"
2272
01:38:16.114 --> 01:38:19.090 line:15%
You know, and then I guess I also thought like, well,
2273
01:38:19.090 --> 01:38:21.580 line:15%
what about all those people who are lawyers
2274
01:38:21.580 --> 01:38:23.760 line:15%
who are criminal defense lawyers?
2275
01:38:23.760 --> 01:38:25.650 line:15%
I mean, they're not bad people, you know?
2276
01:38:25.650 --> 01:38:28.520 line:15%
And I really, but I had to think at that level
2277
01:38:28.520 --> 01:38:32.920 line:15%
and say like, you know, "They're doing their job."
2278
01:38:32.920 --> 01:38:35.500 line:15%
And we, as a society,
2279
01:38:35.500 --> 01:38:38.840 line:15%
believe that they're an important piece of society.
2280
01:38:38.840 --> 01:38:43.700 line:15%
So, you know, that's my role too.
2281
01:38:43.700 --> 01:38:46.280 line:15%
So, but I did, I had to have a lot of talks
2282
01:38:46.280 --> 01:38:47.843 line:15%
with myself (laughs).
2283
01:38:47.843 --> 01:38:51.610 line:15%
I had to walk myself through, you know, about my role.
2284
01:38:51.610 --> 01:38:53.000 line:15%
Where do I fit in?
2285
01:38:53.000 --> 01:38:55.290 line:15%
And, you know, my country, I mean, that's,
2286
01:38:55.290 --> 01:38:57.960 line:15%
you know, I've having lived overseas and I mean,
2287
01:38:57.960 --> 01:39:01.210 line:15%
and seen some crazy you know, I mean, let me tell you Angola
2288
01:39:01.210 --> 01:39:03.613 line:15%
in the middle of the civil war, I mean, that is crazy.
2289
01:39:04.650 --> 01:39:07.020 line:15%
And, you know, I had the opportunity to travel a lot
2290
01:39:07.020 --> 01:39:09.563 line:15%
and I've always felt, you know,
2291
01:39:10.860 --> 01:39:14.850 line:15%
as much as I love traveling, I love being a U.S. citizen.
2292
01:39:14.850 --> 01:39:16.943 line:15%
I love living in America.
2293
01:39:18.050 --> 01:39:21.290 line:15%
And, you know, part of what I love about it is
2294
01:39:21.290 --> 01:39:25.343 line:15%
that we are sort of a country of laws, by and large,
2295
01:39:26.375 --> 01:39:27.827 line:15%
you know, generally I know people say like,
2296
01:39:27.827 --> 01:39:31.400 line:15%
"Oh, we have this," you know?
2297
01:39:31.400 --> 01:39:35.153 line:15%
So, when we really,
2298
01:39:36.190 --> 01:39:40.060 line:15%
I think with Guantanamo, we just hit such a low.
2299
01:39:40.060 --> 01:39:43.170 line:15%
We just, I mean, I think we just, we just fell right off.
2300
01:39:43.170 --> 01:39:44.880 line:15%
We just fell right off the edge.
2301
01:39:44.880 --> 01:39:48.540 line:15%
And it was so depressing to go overseas
2302
01:39:48.540 --> 01:39:52.237 line:15%
and hear people say, "What are you doing?"
2303
01:39:55.350 --> 01:40:00.350 line:15%
America is the sort of the gold standard, you know,
2304
01:40:00.815 --> 01:40:03.070 line:15%
even European countries would say that.
2305
01:40:03.070 --> 01:40:06.280 line:15%
And I think to see America do that,
2306
01:40:06.280 --> 01:40:09.000 line:15%
it sort of devastated the international community
2307
01:40:09.000 --> 01:40:12.127 line:15%
because it was like, you know, "How can,
2308
01:40:12.127 --> 01:40:15.007 line:15%
"if you do that, every country that's already doing
2309
01:40:15.007 --> 01:40:17.420 line:15%
"that is just going to see that as being justified."
2310
01:40:17.420 --> 01:40:19.570 line:15%
And in fact, other countries have used, you know,
2311
01:40:19.570 --> 01:40:22.420 line:15%
national security, this, that, and the other, as excuses.
2312
01:40:23.585 --> 01:40:28.585 line:15%
So, I felt like very, you know, like sad,
2313
01:40:28.820 --> 01:40:33.820 line:15%
that I felt almost embarrassed.
2314
01:40:34.770 --> 01:40:38.090 line:15%
I felt embarrassed to be overseas.
2315
01:40:38.090 --> 01:40:40.380 line:15%
And it was kind of funny.
2316
01:40:40.380 --> 01:40:42.437 line:15%
But here, I was almost sometimes embarrassed to say,
2317
01:40:42.437 --> 01:40:45.250 line:15%
"Oh, I've represented Guantanamo detainees (murmurs)."
2318
01:40:45.250 --> 01:40:46.083 line:15%
You know?
2319
01:40:46.083 --> 01:40:48.330 line:15%
And then overseas, "Oh, I'm an American," you know?
2320
01:40:48.330 --> 01:40:49.900 line:15%
I mean, it was sort of like, you know,
2321
01:40:49.900 --> 01:40:51.570 line:15%
I know embarrassed is kind of funny,
2322
01:40:51.570 --> 01:40:56.570 line:15%
but it was at times embarrassing to be an American,
2323
01:40:58.460 --> 01:41:00.887 line:15%
to say, "Yeah, that's what my country is doing."
2324
01:41:02.294 --> 01:41:04.850 line:15%
'Cause it was really wrong, so.
2325
01:41:04.850 --> 01:41:06.900 line:15%
I want to take the other side of that.
2326
01:41:06.900 --> 01:41:09.460 line:15%
Was there anything positive that came out of this experience
2327
01:41:09.460 --> 01:41:10.894 line:15%
in the last eight years?
2328
01:41:10.894 --> 01:41:12.180 line:15%
Anything positive?
Positive.
2329
01:41:12.180 --> 01:41:14.443 line:15%
Oh yeah (laughs). A lot.
2330
01:41:15.620 --> 01:41:16.930 line:15%
I mean, you know, I tried to,
2331
01:41:16.930 --> 01:41:18.500 line:15%
I try to always look back
2332
01:41:18.500 --> 01:41:19.870 line:15%
and whatever experience you have,
2333
01:41:19.870 --> 01:41:22.850 line:15%
even if it's very bad at the time, I mean, it adds,
2334
01:41:22.850 --> 01:41:25.810 line:15%
only adds to your portrait of yourself
2335
01:41:25.810 --> 01:41:27.890 line:15%
and your experience and your learning
2336
01:41:27.890 --> 01:41:29.960 line:15%
and you should always learn from everything.
2337
01:41:29.960 --> 01:41:34.450 line:15%
So, you know, everything that came out of Guantanamo
2338
01:41:34.450 --> 01:41:37.052 line:15%
in my view is positive because it, you know,
2339
01:41:37.052 --> 01:41:40.940 line:15%
it made me who I am today, you know,
2340
01:41:40.940 --> 01:41:43.690 line:15%
but sort of from a career standpoint, I mean,
2341
01:41:43.690 --> 01:41:48.360 line:15%
it really gave me my career.
2342
01:41:48.360 --> 01:41:49.690 line:15%
When I started, you know,
2343
01:41:49.690 --> 01:41:52.180 line:15%
when I started the case and when there was very few lawyers
2344
01:41:52.180 --> 01:41:55.000 line:15%
and I was, Tom was so supportive of, you know,
2345
01:41:55.000 --> 01:41:57.510 line:15%
if we got a call to do press or whatever,
2346
01:41:57.510 --> 01:41:59.940 line:15%
he'd say, "Oh, you should, you know, you should go do it."
2347
01:41:59.940 --> 01:42:02.400 line:15%
So, that very quickly made me very visible
2348
01:42:02.400 --> 01:42:05.050 line:15%
as a person who was very involved
2349
01:42:05.050 --> 01:42:07.150 line:15%
in Guantanamo and all that.
2350
01:42:07.150 --> 01:42:09.450 line:15%
And then, you know, for panels and stuff like that,
2351
01:42:09.450 --> 01:42:12.310 line:15%
people would reach out to me and I took those opportunities.
2352
01:42:12.310 --> 01:42:15.940 line:15%
And so, I created my own area of expertise, which,
2353
01:42:15.940 --> 01:42:20.470 line:15%
you know, so, and that allowed me to go and teach
2354
01:42:20.470 --> 01:42:23.010 line:15%
and to open a clinic and be the director and, you know,
2355
01:42:23.010 --> 01:42:25.250 line:15%
be a detention expert, which is, you know,
2356
01:42:25.250 --> 01:42:27.390 line:15%
a few years ago, you might sort of thought that was funny.
2357
01:42:27.390 --> 01:42:30.680 line:15%
But now the fact is we are going to have detention clearly
2358
01:42:30.680 --> 01:42:31.513 line:15%
for some time.
2359
01:42:31.513 --> 01:42:35.570 line:15%
So, you know, it gave me an opportunity
2360
01:42:35.570 --> 01:42:40.300 line:15%
to create an area of expertise for myself and,
2361
01:42:40.300 --> 01:42:42.490 line:15%
you know, and be a professor which I enjoy.
2362
01:42:42.490 --> 01:42:43.470 line:15%
I enjoy being a professor.
2363
01:42:43.470 --> 01:42:44.490 line:15%
It's fun.
2364
01:42:44.490 --> 01:42:46.410 line:15%
I love students.
2365
01:42:46.410 --> 01:42:48.530 line:15%
So that, you know, that was very positive.
2366
01:42:48.530 --> 01:42:52.120 line:15%
And, you know, I think it also, I mean,
2367
01:42:54.970 --> 01:42:57.610 line:15%
there were times when it was physically very hard just going
2368
01:42:57.610 --> 01:42:59.670 line:15%
to Guantanamo and making the trip and all that.
2369
01:42:59.670 --> 01:43:02.540 line:15%
And, you know, and then going to see these guys
2370
01:43:02.540 --> 01:43:04.250 line:15%
that you've been working so hard on
2371
01:43:04.250 --> 01:43:07.120 line:15%
and they're looking at you like, Oh, what use are you?
2372
01:43:07.120 --> 01:43:12.120 line:15%
You know? It's like, that sort of difficulty.
2373
01:43:17.056 --> 01:43:20.300 line:15%
but to have had that experience, you know,
2374
01:43:20.300 --> 01:43:23.500 line:15%
and especially now in hindsight, and to be, you know,
2375
01:43:23.500 --> 01:43:26.410 line:15%
one of the few lawyers who have been doing it that long,
2376
01:43:26.410 --> 01:43:30.477 line:15%
it's like, you know, seeing what Guantanamo was,
2377
01:43:32.320 --> 01:43:35.870 line:15%
what it is now, but also what we, you know,
2378
01:43:35.870 --> 01:43:36.810 line:15%
that if we're not careful,
2379
01:43:36.810 --> 01:43:38.460 line:15%
we can sort of go back to that, you know?
2380
01:43:38.460 --> 01:43:41.610 line:15%
And we're still, we're not in a clear, by any means,
2381
01:43:41.610 --> 01:43:43.373 line:15%
you know, we still have a Guantanamo.
2382
01:43:43.373 --> 01:43:44.527 line:15%
I actually had somebody say to me,
2383
01:43:44.527 --> 01:43:45.737 line:15%
"Oh, isn't it closed?"
2384
01:43:46.980 --> 01:43:47.830 line:15%
And I said, "No!"
2385
01:43:49.890 --> 01:43:52.310 line:15%
You know, so just sort of living
2386
01:43:52.310 --> 01:43:57.250 line:15%
through what I think was a very dark time, I do.
2387
01:43:57.250 --> 01:44:02.250 line:15%
I mean, what Bush did, the administration did,
2388
01:44:02.600 --> 01:44:06.530 line:15%
with the Guantanamo detainees those first several years,
2389
01:44:06.530 --> 01:44:08.610 line:15%
things loosened up a little bit
2390
01:44:08.610 --> 01:44:11.880 line:15%
but those first several years, I mean, what a dark period?
2391
01:44:11.880 --> 01:44:15.120 line:15%
I think it's akin to the Japanese American internment,
2392
01:44:15.120 --> 01:44:17.810 line:15%
you know, so, to have been part of that
2393
01:44:17.810 --> 01:44:20.250 line:15%
and to have seen it firsthand what a government can do
2394
01:44:20.250 --> 01:44:25.070 line:15%
when fear and arrogance drive you, you know?
2395
01:44:25.070 --> 01:44:26.790 line:15%
I think that's, I'm, you know,
2396
01:44:26.790 --> 01:44:30.330 line:15%
I guess I'm sort of glad to have seen that firsthand
2397
01:44:30.330 --> 01:44:33.880 line:15%
and hopefully I will not forget that
2398
01:44:33.880 --> 01:44:37.410 line:15%
and be able to use that somehow.
2399
01:44:37.410 --> 01:44:38.243 line:15%
So, we don't slide
2400
01:44:38.243 --> 01:44:39.975 line:15%
into the dark period again.
Do you think it's better
2401
01:44:39.975 --> 01:44:40.975 line:15%
under Obama?
2402
01:44:42.800 --> 01:44:43.740 line:15%
So, okay.
2403
01:44:43.740 --> 01:44:45.910 line:15%
The Obama administration, oh gosh.
2404
01:44:45.910 --> 01:44:48.100 line:15%
You know, it's very sad.
2405
01:44:48.100 --> 01:44:51.970 line:15%
I ended my book basically with,
2406
01:44:51.970 --> 01:44:56.540 line:15%
it's an afterword of, you know, the book sort of ends
2407
01:44:56.540 --> 01:44:58.540 line:15%
before the Obama administration comes in.
2408
01:44:58.540 --> 01:45:01.490 line:15%
But then I did an afterword of like his, you know,
2409
01:45:01.490 --> 01:45:04.210 line:15%
of hearing his inauguration, his inaugural address,
2410
01:45:04.210 --> 01:45:08.130 line:15%
which is great and how we're not going to choose between,
2411
01:45:08.130 --> 01:45:10.440 line:15%
you know, liberty and national security.
2412
01:45:10.440 --> 01:45:11.340 line:15%
That's a false choice.
2413
01:45:11.340 --> 01:45:12.790 line:15%
I don't know if you remember.
2414
01:45:13.884 --> 01:45:16.240 line:15%
And then two days later he signs
2415
01:45:16.240 --> 01:45:18.330 line:15%
the executive order closing Guantanamo down
2416
01:45:18.330 --> 01:45:19.960 line:15%
and then this is sort of how I end my book.
2417
01:45:19.960 --> 01:45:20.793 line:15%
I have hope.
2418
01:45:20.793 --> 01:45:22.000 line:15%
That's what I said, "I have hope."
2419
01:45:22.000 --> 01:45:25.510 line:15%
And then here we are, you know, a year and a half later.
2420
01:45:25.510 --> 01:45:28.930 line:15%
I, you know, I think he probably,
2421
01:45:28.930 --> 01:45:30.930 line:15%
as much as I liked the executive order calling
2422
01:45:30.930 --> 01:45:34.290 line:15%
for the closure of Guantanamo, I think he acted too quickly,
2423
01:45:34.290 --> 01:45:36.460 line:15%
obviously in hindsight, I think it was like a,
2424
01:45:36.460 --> 01:45:39.740 line:15%
sort of a great kind of grandstanding thing to do,
2425
01:45:39.740 --> 01:45:44.380 line:15%
a great show of this is, you know, what I believe in
2426
01:45:44.380 --> 01:45:46.680 line:15%
but then I don't think politically, he really,
2427
01:45:47.850 --> 01:45:50.240 line:15%
he didn't gather the right support.
2428
01:45:50.240 --> 01:45:52.600 line:15%
In fact, most of the Democrats afterwards,
2429
01:45:52.600 --> 01:45:56.070 line:15%
you know, didn't even, they helped pass legislation
2430
01:45:56.070 --> 01:45:59.140 line:15%
that made shutting down Guantanamo almost impossible.
2431
01:45:59.140 --> 01:46:00.500 line:15%
So, he didn't gather the right support.
2432
01:46:00.500 --> 01:46:01.860 line:15%
He really didn't do his homework.
2433
01:46:01.860 --> 01:46:03.837 line:15%
So, in some ways you sort of say like,
2434
01:46:03.837 --> 01:46:06.997 line:15%
"Well, you sorta screwed that up, buddy."
2435
01:46:08.429 --> 01:46:10.853 line:15%
But you know, even that aside,
2436
01:46:12.143 --> 01:46:16.640 line:15%
you know, he hasn't made that much change,
2437
01:46:16.640 --> 01:46:19.040 line:15%
you know, putting aside shutting Guantanamo down,
2438
01:46:19.040 --> 01:46:21.307 line:15%
he hasn't, you know, under him,
2439
01:46:21.307 --> 01:46:23.320 line:15%
and he advocated for the passage
2440
01:46:23.320 --> 01:46:26.710 line:15%
of the Military Commissions Act of 2009.
2441
01:46:26.710 --> 01:46:29.530 line:15%
We still have military commissions, you know,
2442
01:46:29.530 --> 01:46:32.890 line:15%
which is I think sort of, I don't
2443
01:46:32.890 --> 01:46:35.250 line:15%
I think military commissions are good for certain things,
2444
01:46:35.250 --> 01:46:37.700 line:15%
but I think, you know,
2445
01:46:37.700 --> 01:46:40.810 line:15%
given the history of these military commissions,
2446
01:46:40.810 --> 01:46:42.640 line:15%
given the fact that you've got people
2447
01:46:42.640 --> 01:46:45.580 line:15%
who are picked up in the U.S. for the same crimes overseas
2448
01:46:45.580 --> 01:46:48.360 line:15%
who are being charged in our federal courts
2449
01:46:48.360 --> 01:46:53.360 line:15%
under a slew of materials, terrorism statutes,
2450
01:46:53.840 --> 01:46:56.000 line:15%
it doesn't make any sense, you know?
2451
01:46:56.000 --> 01:46:59.660 line:15%
And he is bowing to political pressure.
2452
01:46:59.660 --> 01:47:00.667 line:15%
'Cause he, you remember he said,
2453
01:47:00.667 --> 01:47:01.807 line:15%
"Oh, we're going to charge the six
2454
01:47:01.807 --> 01:47:03.320 line:15%
"or the five in federal court."
2455
01:47:03.320 --> 01:47:05.090 line:15%
And then all of a sudden it was like, oh no.
2456
01:47:05.090 --> 01:47:07.010 line:15%
Oh, okay, well, maybe we should charge
2457
01:47:07.010 --> 01:47:07.843 line:15%
in a military commission.
2458
01:47:07.843 --> 01:47:09.080 line:15%
Well, what's he going to do next? You know?
2459
01:47:09.080 --> 01:47:10.430 line:15%
Oh, you know, nobody likes that?
2460
01:47:10.430 --> 01:47:12.540 line:15%
Okay. Well, maybe we'll just keep Guantanamo open.
2461
01:47:12.540 --> 01:47:15.530 line:15%
So, you know, I'm disappointed
2462
01:47:15.530 --> 01:47:17.000 line:15%
that he sort of seems to be
2463
01:47:18.990 --> 01:47:21.893 line:15%
sort of much more going with the political wind.
2464
01:47:22.950 --> 01:47:25.890 line:15%
I really didn't think that he was gonna be that way.
2465
01:47:25.890 --> 01:47:28.673 line:15%
Maybe that's really naive of me to say that.
2466
01:47:28.673 --> 01:47:30.440 line:15%
You're not alone.
(Kristine laughs)
2467
01:47:30.440 --> 01:47:31.830 line:15%
I think a lot of people are disappointed.
2468
01:47:31.830 --> 01:47:34.100 line:15%
I think a lot of people expected a lot of,
2469
01:47:34.100 --> 01:47:36.200 line:15%
a lot more policy change
2470
01:47:36.200 --> 01:47:38.310 line:15%
especially with respect to national security.
2471
01:47:38.310 --> 01:47:43.310 line:15%
But in fact, the state secrets doctrine is being used
2472
01:47:43.810 --> 01:47:45.650 line:15%
just as much as it was.
2473
01:47:45.650 --> 01:47:49.520 line:15%
You've got people who are making the same arguments
2474
01:47:49.520 --> 01:47:50.560 line:15%
in court papers
2475
01:47:50.560 --> 01:47:53.210 line:15%
that they made under the Bush administration.
2476
01:47:53.210 --> 01:47:57.500 line:15%
So, there hasn't been a huge shift
2477
01:47:57.500 --> 01:48:00.410 line:15%
I think of the sort that a lot of people thought
2478
01:48:00.410 --> 01:48:04.220 line:15%
that they would see and that at least, you know,
2479
01:48:04.220 --> 01:48:06.010 line:15%
several people I know would like to see,
2480
01:48:06.010 --> 01:48:09.200 line:15%
at least some portion of the country, including myself.
2481
01:48:09.200 --> 01:48:11.920 line:15%
So, I'm disappointed.
2482
01:48:11.920 --> 01:48:16.783 line:15%
I'm very disappointed, you know, but I,
2483
01:48:18.370 --> 01:48:19.470 line:15%
but I'm also a realist.
2484
01:48:19.470 --> 01:48:22.877 line:15%
I don't think, you know, anybody can come in
2485
01:48:22.877 --> 01:48:25.650 line:15%
and all of a sudden Guantanamo will just be cleaned up
2486
01:48:25.650 --> 01:48:26.483 line:15%
just like that.
2487
01:48:26.483 --> 01:48:27.680 line:15%
And all of sudden we'll have no Guantanamo
2488
01:48:27.680 --> 01:48:29.233 line:15%
and we'll, you know, have,
2489
01:48:30.550 --> 01:48:32.760 line:15%
we'll go back to sort of pre-9/11.
2490
01:48:32.760 --> 01:48:34.500 line:15%
I don't think, I don't know that we can do that.
2491
01:48:34.500 --> 01:48:36.910 line:15%
I think we've sort of gone too far.
2492
01:48:36.910 --> 01:48:40.880 line:15%
And I think that, you know, I think that realistically some
2493
01:48:40.880 --> 01:48:45.880 line:15%
of the dangers might actually be more than they were.
2494
01:48:46.640 --> 01:48:49.930 line:15%
It might actually be a more dangerous world
2495
01:48:49.930 --> 01:48:53.720 line:15%
that we live in as far as, you know, terrorism goes.
2496
01:48:53.720 --> 01:48:54.930 line:15%
But I say that with a caveat
2497
01:48:54.930 --> 01:48:56.890 line:15%
which is to say, it's interesting,
2498
01:48:56.890 --> 01:48:58.760 line:15%
because I think when people think
2499
01:48:58.760 --> 01:49:00.250 line:15%
of national security and terrorism,
2500
01:49:00.250 --> 01:49:02.930 line:15%
they're thinking a very particular type of terrorism,
2501
01:49:02.930 --> 01:49:05.980 line:15%
terrorism by Islamic extremists.
2502
01:49:05.980 --> 01:49:07.237 line:15%
They're not thinking of,
2503
01:49:07.237 --> 01:49:08.637 line:15%
"Oh, let's have military commissions
2504
01:49:08.637 --> 01:49:11.180 line:15%
"for those terrorists out in Montana," the whole, you know,
2505
01:49:11.180 --> 01:49:13.916 line:15%
Hutaree family or whatever that was found with, you know,
2506
01:49:13.916 --> 01:49:17.740 line:15%
a pile of arms and, you know, and charged with treason.
2507
01:49:17.740 --> 01:49:19.350 line:15%
That, those aren't the terrorists
2508
01:49:19.350 --> 01:49:20.890 line:15%
for the military commissions.
2509
01:49:20.890 --> 01:49:21.830 line:15%
It's the other people.
2510
01:49:21.830 --> 01:49:23.090 line:15%
So it's, you know, to me,
2511
01:49:23.090 --> 01:49:27.740 line:15%
that I find that distinction and, you know,
2512
01:49:27.740 --> 01:49:30.723 line:15%
discrimination very troubling and upsetting.
2513
01:49:31.765 --> 01:49:33.230 line:15%
So has the world changed?
2514
01:49:33.230 --> 01:49:36.295 line:15%
It'll never go back to pre-9/11?
2515
01:49:36.295 --> 01:49:39.653 line:15%
(sighs) I think the world, I mean, I think,
2516
01:49:42.170 --> 01:49:43.650 line:15%
I think the world has changed
2517
01:49:43.650 --> 01:49:46.050 line:15%
and I don't think it will go back to pre-9/11.
2518
01:49:46.050 --> 01:49:47.050 line:15%
And I think, you know,
2519
01:49:47.050 --> 01:49:51.640 line:15%
maybe there are some laws that could be stronger
2520
01:49:51.640 --> 01:49:52.653 line:15%
in terms of,
2521
01:49:54.330 --> 01:49:59.320 line:15%
stronger in terms of people would say, you know,
2522
01:49:59.320 --> 01:50:01.103 line:15%
infringing on our civil liberties.
2523
01:50:03.044 --> 01:50:06.712 line:15%
That might be necessary, you know,
2524
01:50:06.712 --> 01:50:08.160 line:15%
but it depends on what the law is.
2525
01:50:08.160 --> 01:50:10.260 line:15%
And I think also, you know,
2526
01:50:10.260 --> 01:50:13.500 line:15%
you have to look at it all as a whole.
2527
01:50:13.500 --> 01:50:16.590 line:15%
Are there some places where we can give a little bit,
2528
01:50:16.590 --> 01:50:18.430 line:15%
have a little bit stronger laws
2529
01:50:18.430 --> 01:50:20.640 line:15%
so that overall we can have as open
2530
01:50:20.640 --> 01:50:22.930 line:15%
and a free society as possible?
2531
01:50:22.930 --> 01:50:24.160 line:15%
Without, you know, one thing
2532
01:50:24.160 --> 01:50:26.900 line:15%
that really bothers me is the idea
2533
01:50:26.900 --> 01:50:29.130 line:15%
that we could have military commissions be part
2534
01:50:29.130 --> 01:50:30.530 line:15%
of the fabric of our society
2535
01:50:30.530 --> 01:50:33.610 line:15%
for the rest of our time,
2536
01:50:33.610 --> 01:50:36.447 line:15%
because that's what people are suggesting when they say,
2537
01:50:36.447 --> 01:50:38.820 line:15%
"Well, we're in a war against terrorism"
2538
01:50:38.820 --> 01:50:41.310 line:15%
and that's never going to end.
2539
01:50:41.310 --> 01:50:44.720 line:15%
And so if we are always in a war against terrorism,
2540
01:50:44.720 --> 01:50:47.940 line:15%
and military commissions is the way to prosecute terrorists,
2541
01:50:47.940 --> 01:50:50.470 line:15%
then we will always have a military commissions
2542
01:50:50.470 --> 01:50:52.500 line:15%
and military detention.
2543
01:50:52.500 --> 01:50:56.490 line:15%
And so, I think that, you know, that that needs to go
2544
01:50:56.490 --> 01:50:59.300 line:15%
but there might be some other areas where, you know,
2545
01:50:59.300 --> 01:51:03.500 line:15%
maybe in the big picture giving up a little freedom
2546
01:51:03.500 --> 01:51:05.210 line:15%
in those areas might be okay.
2547
01:51:05.210 --> 01:51:06.600 line:15%
I'm not sure though.
2548
01:51:06.600 --> 01:51:08.380 line:15%
I don't know. It's scary to say that.
2549
01:51:08.380 --> 01:51:09.213 line:15%
It's scary to say that.
2550
01:51:09.213 --> 01:51:12.033 line:15%
As one of my students said, it's such a slippery slope.
2551
01:51:13.870 --> 01:51:15.883 line:15%
I have one more question before, can you,
2552
01:51:16.740 --> 01:51:18.820 line:15%
and that is there something that I didn't ask you
2553
01:51:18.820 --> 01:51:22.610 line:15%
that just, in terms of all that you've seen
2554
01:51:22.610 --> 01:51:23.507 line:15%
in the last 10 years
2555
01:51:23.507 --> 01:51:25.573 line:15%
and about yourself that maybe I didn't ask you
2556
01:51:25.573 --> 01:51:27.483 line:15%
that you just wanted to share with us?
2557
01:51:28.852 --> 01:51:31.602 line:15%
(Kristine sighs)
2558
01:51:32.800 --> 01:51:37.378 line:15%
I guess, you know,
2559
01:51:37.378 --> 01:51:40.770 line:15%
what's really sort of terrible
2560
01:51:40.770 --> 01:51:45.770 line:15%
about all this is that there is such a human side to it
2561
01:51:47.770 --> 01:51:50.550 line:15%
that I think sometimes as lawyers and professors,
2562
01:51:50.550 --> 01:51:52.050 line:15%
we can get really abstract
2563
01:51:52.050 --> 01:51:55.030 line:15%
and we can get caught up in the law and the theory
2564
01:51:55.030 --> 01:51:57.370 line:15%
and all that, you know?
2565
01:51:57.370 --> 01:52:00.340 line:15%
But at the end of the day,
2566
01:52:00.340 --> 01:52:05.340 line:15%
there's always some person who is hurt unfairly,
2567
01:52:07.220 --> 01:52:09.520 line:15%
an innocent person with family
2568
01:52:09.520 --> 01:52:12.603 line:15%
who is hurt by all of, you know, by all of this.
2569
01:52:13.940 --> 01:52:16.980 line:15%
And so, you know, it's sort of,
2570
01:52:16.980 --> 01:52:18.170 line:15%
you know, it's sort of easy for,
2571
01:52:18.170 --> 01:52:19.367 line:15%
I think for people to talk about like,
2572
01:52:19.367 --> 01:52:21.011 line:15%
"Oh, national security, and we should have these laws
2573
01:52:21.011 --> 01:52:21.844 line:15%
"and that laws."
2574
01:52:21.844 --> 01:52:24.260 line:15%
And, but we should sort of never, yeah,
2575
01:52:24.260 --> 01:52:26.490 line:15%
never lose sight of the fact that what we're talking
2576
01:52:26.490 --> 01:52:31.490 line:15%
about is laws that affect people's lives, you know?
2577
01:52:32.660 --> 01:52:35.800 line:15%
So, yeah.
2578
01:52:35.800 --> 01:52:39.463 line:15%
And that's probably the most valuable thing
2579
01:52:39.463 --> 01:52:42.120 line:15%
that I learned in all of this.
2580
01:52:42.120 --> 01:52:42.953 line:15%
Yeah.
2581
01:52:44.780 --> 01:52:45.613 line:15%
That was great.
2582
01:52:45.613 --> 01:52:47.179 line:15%
And I have some to add to that off camera,
2583
01:52:47.179 --> 01:52:48.313 line:15%
but I think,
Oh, okay.
2584
01:52:48.313 --> 01:52:51.200 line:15%
I think Theo wants 20 seconds of room tone.
2585
01:52:51.200 --> 01:52:53.617 line:15%
Yeah. I'd like that.
2586
01:53:10.622 --> 01:53:11.955 line:15%
Okay, thank you.