WEBVTT 1 00:11.000 --> 00:34.000 Today is June the twenty-eighth, 1994. I'm Felix Armfield the interviewer, and I'm at the home of Dr. Emmett Bashful at 5808 Lafaye Street in New Orleans, Louisiana. We're about to start our interview. Dr. Bashful, would you state your full name for us just for the record. 2 00:34.000 --> 00:39.000 Emmett W. Bashful. 3 00:39.000 --> 00:44.000 Okay. Dr. Bashful, how long have you lived here in New Orleans? 4 00:44.000 --> 00:47.000 I've been here since 1959. 5 00:47.000 --> 00:55.000 1959. And prior to New Orleans where were you born and reared. 6 00:55.000 --> 01:02.000 I was born in Pointe Coupee Parish in Louisiana and I was reared in Baton Rouge. 7 01:02.000 --> 01:05.000 Can you spell Pointe Coupee. 8 01:05.000 --> 01:11.000 P-O-I-N-T-E C-O-U-P-E-E. That's French for cut point. 9 01:11.000 --> 01:13.000 Okay. Okay. Gotcha. 10 01:13.000 --> 01:30.000 And I was reared in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. That's at the capital city there. And incidentally, Baton Rouge is just across the river about 25 or 30 miles from the Pointe Coupee Parish. 11 01:30.000 --> 01:36.000 Okay. Okay. Now, when were you born there in Pointe Coupee Parish? 12 01:36.000 --> 01:37.000 When? 13 01:37.000 --> 01:37.000 Yes, sir. 14 01:37.000 --> 01:40.000 1917, March twelfth. 15 01:40.000 --> 01:42.000 March twelfth, 1917. 16 01:42.000 --> 01:46.000 I'm seventy-seven years of age now, seventy-seven years young. 17 01:46.000 --> 01:50.000 All right. That's what I like to hear you say. Ain't no such thing as [indistinct 00:01:47] young. 18 01:50.000 --> 01:53.000 Yeah. Yeah. 19 01:53.000 --> 01:58.000 So what are some of your earliest recollections or were you in Pointe Coupee long enough that you— 20 01:58.000 --> 02:00.000 No, I was four years old when we left there. 21 02:00.000 --> 02:01.000 You left there. 22 02:01.000 --> 02:10.000 The only recollection I have is when we left, we moved from Pointe Coupee to Baton Rouge in a wagon. 23 02:10.000 --> 02:11.000 In a wagon. 24 02:11.000 --> 02:39.000 In a wagon, and there was not a bridge over the Mississippi River then. Pointe Coupee is on one side of the river, Baton Rouge on the other. And when we got on this ferry and all of that was on the twenty-five miles, little four year old, I thought I was going on a long journey, and I remember crossing that river in that ferry. That's the only thing I remember about it. That was a— 25 02:39.000 --> 02:41.000 And you put the horse and wagon and everything on the ferry and you all went. 26 02:41.000 --> 02:45.000 Yeah, they just drove it on, just like you drive a car on the ferry. 27 02:45.000 --> 02:51.000 Okay. Now, how large was the family at that— 28 02:51.000 --> 02:58.000 The same as it is now in terms of my siblings. I have three sisters and one brother. 29 02:58.000 --> 02:59.000 Three sisters. 30 02:59.000 --> 03:04.000 An older brother and older sister, I'm in the middle, and I have two younger sisters. 31 03:04.000 --> 03:06.000 And everybody took off for Baton Rouge at that time. 32 03:06.000 --> 03:09.000 Everybody, yeah. 33 03:09.000 --> 03:16.000 So what are some of your earliest recollections of your parents? Why were you leaving Pointe Coupee? Do you have— 34 03:16.000 --> 04:00.000 They left Pointe Coupee primarily because my father had attended school in Baton Rouge, at what is called Baton Rouge College then. It was, at that time, just a high school. And Dr. J. S. Clark, who later became the President, I guess, who then was the President of Southern University. Was at that time, President of Baton Rouge College when he was a student. And when he went back to Pointe Coupee and got married and so forth, he was dissatisfied with the school system now so he decided to move to Baton Rouge where his children could get a better education. 35 04:00.000 --> 04:08.000 Okay, gotcha. So even at that point, your parents were concerned that you receive the best education possible. 36 04:08.000 --> 04:09.000 That's right. 37 04:09.000 --> 04:13.000 And what kinds of things did your parents do? What did your father do for a living? 38 04:13.000 --> 05:07.000 My father was a farmer, of course, when he was out in Pointe Coupee and farmer come into a place like Baton Rouge, it is quite an adjustment. So he worked at the Standard Oil, which is Exxon. The same thing as Standard Oil Company in Louisiana at the time, which now Exxon. And he did work all around. And when work at the Standard Oil was over, he did work with the Baton Rouge Water Company and several other groups like that. He was, primarily, a laborer because Blacks just didn't have opportunities for employment at that time. 39 05:07.000 --> 05:15.000 You said that a farmer making the transition from Pointe Coupee to Baton Rouge, was it difficult? 40 05:15.000 --> 05:16.000 Very difficult. 41 05:16.000 --> 05:19.000 What made it so difficult, Dr. Bashful? 42 05:19.000 --> 06:29.000 Well, because in terms of employers, besides the Standard Oil, there weren't too many places that Blacks could get employment. This was 1921, around '21 or '22 when he made the move. And besides the Standard Oil, and of course, the school system, which only had a few teachers. There were about three elementary schools and '21, I don't know whether or not that was a high school, public high school. And by and large, there were not too many places to get a job and he got a job where he could. He just happened to get on at the Standard Oil for several years and did very well there. But that didn't last as the ebb and flow of the economy was such that he was let go after maybe four or five years there. 43 06:29.000 --> 06:32.000 So just before the Great Depression set in. 44 06:32.000 --> 06:35.000 Yeah. Yeah. Right. 45 06:35.000 --> 06:41.000 Do you know of any family members that has served in the first World War? 46 06:41.000 --> 06:45.000 Oh, yeah. First World War? No, no, not the first World War. 47 06:45.000 --> 06:48.000 Okay. Okay. 48 06:48.000 --> 07:03.000 My father did not go because he was farming and I'm sure in Pointe Coupee, they felt that they could best serve the war effort by letting these people grow food and that sort of thing. 49 07:03.000 --> 07:03.000 Yeah. 50 07:03.000 --> 07:13.000 See, my grandfather had a big plantation there, and he had a number of sons and they were doing the farming really. Yeah. Yeah. 51 07:13.000 --> 07:18.000 Because I ran into several persons here in New Orleans who have talked about Pointe Coupee. [indistinct 00:07:18] 52 07:18.000 --> 07:28.000 Yeah, yeah. A lot of people came from there. That's a French speaking section of Louisiana, one of the French speaking sections. 53 07:28.000 --> 07:30.000 So it was a French influence. 54 07:30.000 --> 07:33.000 Yeah, absolutely. 55 07:33.000 --> 07:35.000 What did your mother do? 56 07:35.000 --> 07:52.000 My mother didn't do very much of anything. With five children, she— And later on she was an excellent cook and people wanted her to cook. Many of the Whites and even around the churches and that sort of thing so she would do some things like that. 57 07:52.000 --> 07:55.000 So for the most part, your mother remained a housewife. 58 07:55.000 --> 07:59.000 Yeah. Yeah. And little jobs here and there. 59 07:59.000 --> 08:02.000 Yeah. But it sounds like she mastered the culinary skills though. 60 08:02.000 --> 08:07.000 Yes, very much so. Very much so. 61 08:07.000 --> 08:15.000 Once the family having gotten settled there in Baton Rouge, what are some of your earliest recollections of that world around you then? 62 08:15.000 --> 09:34.000 I suppose the earliest recollection in Baton Rouge, those dealing with the struggle to survive, really. The day-to-day struggle to survive. Because even among the Blacks with the best of jobs, there still was a struggle to survive. Money was, as I said, scarce as hen's teeth. Money wasn't very plentiful, and with five children, there was seven mouths to feed at our home and other things like that. We rented the house we were living in. We rented it and when you buy clothes and food and that sort of thing, you didn't have very much left. Nothing left as a matter of fact. And so I saw that as one of the real problems. And of course, I don't remember in my earlier years, the Jim Crow and the segregation, but as I got older, it became very apparent that this was a barrier to any meaningful progress. 63 09:34.000 --> 09:39.000 Okay. You said you must have been about four, five when you made the move to Baton Rouge. 64 09:39.000 --> 09:44.000 About four, yeah. 65 09:44.000 --> 09:47.000 So that's when you really wouldn't begin your public school education until you got to Baton Rouge. 66 09:47.000 --> 09:49.000 No, until later on. Yeah. Yeah. 67 09:49.000 --> 09:55.000 Now, what do you recall of those very formative years of education there? 68 09:55.000 --> 09:58.000 I went to what was called Reddy Street School. 69 09:58.000 --> 09:59.000 Reddy Street? 70 09:59.000 --> 10:37.000 Reddy, R-E-D-D-Y. Reddy Street School. And I remember that fondly because of the teachers and the interest they took in us. I couldn't wait to get to school because I loved the teachers and the interest they took. Although the principal was a very strict disciplinarian, it was very apparent to me that she, as well as the other teachers, she and the other teachers were interested in the students and trying to get them to do— 71 10:37.000 --> 10:37.000 So you had a female principal? 72 10:37.000 --> 10:37.000 Pardon? 73 10:37.000 --> 10:40.000 You had a female principal. 74 10:40.000 --> 10:51.000 Yeah. Female principal and female teachers. I don't think at that elementary school, there weren't any male teachers at all. 75 10:51.000 --> 10:52.000 Really? 76 10:52.000 --> 11:20.000 And they were very interested and they did a good job of teaching. Although at that time, many of them had their normal certificate, and they were at Southern University in the evening and in the summer, mostly in the summer, trying to get their degree and they finally got their degree. But they did a good job and they were very interested in the students. 77 11:20.000 --> 11:35.000 Yeah. Yeah. I can only imagine. You've obviously expressed the fact that when you say that they were very interested in the students, they went about it by being strict disciplinarians and making certain that you were well-trained. 78 11:35.000 --> 12:02.000 Absolutely. We were very, very respectful of them and almost afraid of them in some respects because we knew if we did anything wrong that there was a day of reckoning. That they would take care of it. And at that time, they didn't have any laws about corporal punishment. They would beat the living stew out of you. 79 12:02.000 --> 12:03.000 And probably escort you home. 80 12:03.000 --> 12:35.000 Yeah, yeah. Right. Another thing, one of the teachers at Reddy Street School had taught my mother when my mother was in elementary school and she said, you "Are Mary Bashful's son?" I said, "Yes, ma'am." Said, "Well, I know you are supposed to do well, and you better not get out of line." So that shook me. And there wasn't any question that I did not get out of line because I knew what would happen both at school and at home. 81 12:35.000 --> 12:43.000 Yeah. Do you ever recall any particular incident where the teacher got involved with the home or? 82 12:43.000 --> 12:51.000 Not really. Not really, because I didn't allow anything to happen that the teacher would have to get involved with the home. 83 12:51.000 --> 12:53.000 Okay, okay. 84 12:53.000 --> 12:57.000 In a negative sort of way in that way. Yeah. 85 12:57.000 --> 13:12.000 How much of an interest did your parents invest in that education? Were they active PTA people? Were they, I mean, or— 86 13:12.000 --> 13:31.000 Believe it or not, as far as I know, there were no PTAs back at that time. They didn't even have a PTA as far as I know. I don't remember. I don't think they were that interested in the PTA. I mean, they were interested in our education, but not to the extent that they went to the school. 87 13:31.000 --> 13:41.000 It sounds like there was really no need for a PTA when clearly students understood that when your parents sent you off to school, they entrusted you in the hands of the school and its administrators. 88 13:41.000 --> 13:53.000 Right. That's about right. There wasn't any question in our minds what we were supposed to do as far as our parents were concerned. 89 13:53.000 --> 13:54.000 There was some clear cut answers there. 90 13:54.000 --> 13:55.000 Yeah. 91 13:55.000 --> 13:58.000 You didn't have to wonder about too much. 92 13:58.000 --> 13:58.000 No. 93 13:58.000 --> 14:01.000 There was no need for a parent teacher association. 94 14:01.000 --> 14:04.000 No. They had their own informal association. 95 14:04.000 --> 14:05.000 That's right. 96 14:05.000 --> 14:10.000 I mean, largely, I guess some of these same teachers actually lived in your neighborhoods. 97 14:10.000 --> 14:21.000 More or less, yes. But none lived right around me, but in the vicinity, and my parents knew them. 98 14:21.000 --> 14:22.000 Yeah. 99 14:22.000 --> 14:28.000 And so it was that type of thing. They knew they could get in touch with them if it became necessary. 100 14:28.000 --> 14:35.000 Really. How much of an influence did religion play on those formative years? 101 14:35.000 --> 15:23.000 It was very much so. Very much. My parents were members of the Baptist church, and they would see that we'd go to church and that sort of thing. They were both very religious. When they were in, even in Pointe Coupee, they were a member of a church called Little Zion Baptist Church. Matter of fact, my grandfather is one of the founders of that church. My father and my uncle were people who were deacons and trustees of the church and so they continued that when they moved into Baton Rouge. 102 15:23.000 --> 15:27.000 Okay. Did they break ties with Little Zion? 103 15:27.000 --> 15:27.000 Oh, yes. 104 15:27.000 --> 15:27.000 Okay. 105 15:27.000 --> 15:28.000 Yes. 106 15:28.000 --> 15:29.000 And you found a church. 107 15:29.000 --> 15:40.000 And they moved to Baton Rouge as they identified with several churches there. 108 15:40.000 --> 15:56.000 When I asked the question of what type of role did religion play in those formative years, how often do you recall the church services or having to attend church services. Were they weekly or sporadically or— 109 15:56.000 --> 16:02.000 We went most Sundays. Most Sundays we went to church. 110 16:02.000 --> 16:18.000 What do you recall about that community there in Baton Rouge as you began to grow and by the time you were ready for junior high school and high school? What kinds of things were taking place? I imagine this must have been by the mid-thirties or so. 111 16:18.000 --> 16:32.000 Yeah. Well, it was a close-knit community. There was beginning, I think in '27, maybe even a little before that they had the high school. 112 16:32.000 --> 16:33.000 Okay. 113 16:33.000 --> 16:54.000 Baton Rouge High School and then McKinley High School. I said a while ago that maybe there wasn't a high school. I guess there was. I don't know whether it was as early as '21, but it might have been. But it is in the twenties that they got the high school, and they built a new high school in 1927, 1928. I know, because I think the first— 114 16:54.000 --> 16:55.000 Were Black students there? 115 16:55.000 --> 16:56.000 Yeah. 116 16:56.000 --> 16:57.000 Oh really? 117 16:57.000 --> 17:44.000 I think the McKinley High School was built, and it seems to me the first class graduated in '28. McKinley had a football team and I can remember vividly, everybody in the city would come to their games, people who were interested in games. Maybe I ought to mentioned this, that the organization of school, such that there was a supervising principal. He's a principal at the high school and supervising principal of the three Black elementary schools. So at Reddy Street, Scott Street and Perkins Row at three so he was like the czar. 118 17:44.000 --> 17:47.000 Okay. 119 17:47.000 --> 18:42.000 And when McKinley played, of course, the kids from all the other schools could come and their parents would allow them to come to the games so that was one of the things which was a unifying force. Even then, it wasn't clear to me about segregation. I was still very young. But I mean, it was there. Many of the adverse effects hadn't registered with me, but they began to around this time. I began to see some of the aspects of it but we had a close-knit community and the people were always interested. Now, I worked at a, during that period, I did a little work around a barbershop. I shined shoes when I— 120 18:42.000 --> 18:43.000 This was when? 121 18:43.000 --> 18:55.000 This must have been while I was in, you mentioned junior high. We didn't have a junior high school then. You went to the elementary school, then transferred to the high school. 122 18:55.000 --> 18:56.000 Oh, okay. 123 18:56.000 --> 19:27.000 Around that period, one of the interesting things when my father laid off in the depression, we would go on the strawberry farm. My mother would take us and we'd go to Independence, Louisiana, Hammond, in that area where they had strawberry farms and we would be out there about maybe four or five weeks, and we'd miss that much out of school. 124 19:27.000 --> 20:29.000 We'd tell the teachers and they would tell us what we ought to do and we had to study why we out there and so we did that and came back. And finally, we went to the next grade because we studied and sort halfway kept up and made a little money. When you made two or three hundred dollars on anything, that was pretty good money around that time. And so we went out and picked strawberries and that was one of the things I remember. Then I remember definitely that was the force of the economy became very, very clear to me that I had to go leave school and go out on the strawberry farm when many of my other youngsters that I knew did not have to. 125 20:29.000 --> 20:30.000 Okay. 126 20:30.000 --> 20:39.000 Classmates, man there that struck me in. I didn't particularly like that, but our mother told us it's necessary so I did it. 127 20:39.000 --> 20:46.000 Now, when you said that you all would have to go on this these strawberry farms, where would you stay when you got down there when you [indistinct 00:20:46]? 128 20:46.000 --> 20:55.000 They had a house that they would stay in. The people who owned the strawberry farm would have a house to stay in. Yeah. Yeah. They would've house in there. 129 20:55.000 --> 20:58.000 Now would this be the whole family that would go down there? 130 20:58.000 --> 21:21.000 Not the whole family. Most of us though, but not the whole family. Mother would go and as many of the children as she decided to take. We're talking about in elementary school now and so most of us would go when I was in elementary school. 131 21:21.000 --> 21:21.000 Okay. 132 21:21.000 --> 21:27.000 Most of us, not my oldest brother, though. He never would be because he had a little job himself. 133 21:27.000 --> 21:32.000 Okay. Now, you were talking a little while ago about you actually started shining shoes. 134 21:32.000 --> 21:36.000 Yeah. That was at a barbershop. 135 21:36.000 --> 21:38.000 There in Baton Rouge? 136 21:38.000 --> 21:57.000 Yeah, in Baton Rouge in my neighborhood. And I shined shoes and make I think ten cents to shine shoes. And you had to give the barbershop a nickel and you kept a nickel. So if you shined about ten pair shoes you make fifty cents, which was, at that time, little money at that day. Yeah. 137 21:57.000 --> 21:59.000 You had more than just some pocket change. 138 21:59.000 --> 22:01.000 Yeah. Yes. 139 22:01.000 --> 22:11.000 So now these little jobs like that you were doing, were they basically jobs to supplement the family income or were they just pretty much for your own? 140 22:11.000 --> 23:30.000 For me not to supplement the income, although, and later on that was the case. Later on, I began to sell papers, especially Sunday papers, sometime extras when they had extras. And this was when I had gotten into high school. I would still shine shoes, mow grass, and do all those sort of things. And I finally got a job at a drugstore. Griffons, G-R-I-F-F-O-N-S, Griffons Drugstore. And later on, and I think it was my first year of high school, I dropped out because my oldest sister was a senior in high school, and she would not have graduated if I had not. Yeah, it was my first year in high school, but for her to remain in school, since my father wasn't working, nobody working except me and my brother. And I was doing very well in the little job I had at that drugstore. 141 23:30.000 --> 23:30.000 About what time was this, Dr. Bashful? 142 23:30.000 --> 23:30.000 That was 1931. 143 23:30.000 --> 23:35.000 1931. 144 23:35.000 --> 23:47.000 I graduated from high school in 1936, that meant that I really started in high school in '32. Because in '31, I didn't go because of that situation. 145 23:47.000 --> 23:49.000 So that your sister would be able to finish. 146 23:49.000 --> 23:49.000 Yeah. 147 23:49.000 --> 23:49.000 You dropped out. 148 23:49.000 --> 23:50.000 Yeah. 149 23:50.000 --> 23:56.000 And what kind of work were you doing that year while you were out? 150 23:56.000 --> 24:06.000 I was working at drugstore doing little things around drugstore, delivering packages, medicine in the neighborhood where people would call and sent a prescription to send something out. 151 24:06.000 --> 24:08.000 Now, was this a Black-owned drugstore? 152 24:08.000 --> 24:18.000 No, no, no. It was a White owned drugstore. And I'd make tips and that was the main thing. The little money that they paid me wasn't anything but the tips added up. 153 24:18.000 --> 24:22.000 So that this time you actually are working such that you could supplement the family. 154 24:22.000 --> 24:25.000 Absolutely. 155 24:25.000 --> 24:36.000 Interesting, interesting. That's an interesting story within itself that you actually dropped out such that your older sister would be able to finish her last year of high school. 156 24:36.000 --> 24:37.000 Yeah. 157 24:37.000 --> 24:50.000 How typical was that from people who were obviously not middle class Black folk where you were working class people. Was that typical of other working class Blacks in the area? 158 24:50.000 --> 25:13.000 Well, many of them didn't even go to high school so that was a situation that many of the Blacks finished elementary school or even didn't finish and they would drop out. But I'd say that that is fairly typical, that dropping out. 159 25:13.000 --> 25:14.000 Really? 160 25:14.000 --> 25:25.000 But the main thing is not only I dropped out but I went back after that year without my father, went back to work. 161 25:25.000 --> 25:26.000 Next fall you went back in school. 162 25:26.000 --> 25:27.000 Yeah. Back in school. 163 25:27.000 --> 25:44.000 And you went straight on through, obviously, at that point. I guess I need you to just clear something up for me here at this point, because you were farming, you were a farming family when you were in Pointe Coupee. 164 25:44.000 --> 25:45.000 Right. 165 25:45.000 --> 25:55.000 But however, is the move from Pointe Coupee to Baton Rouge at this point in time, is that a move from rural Louisiana to urban Louisiana? 166 25:55.000 --> 25:57.000 I guess you could say that. Baton Rouge wasn't very large then, but it was the capital, it was— 167 25:57.000 --> 25:57.000 How much farming labor was going on in Baton Rouge as opposed to Point Coupee? 168 25:57.000 --> 26:28.000 Not a lot of it. Not a lot of farming in Baton Rouge. So the economy was not driven by farming. It was driven by other. See, Baton Rouge is primarily a town with the Standard Oil Company being the premier employer. 169 26:28.000 --> 26:28.000 Gotcha. 170 26:28.000 --> 26:40.000 And that was the situation there, that it wasn't farming as much as the oil and gas industry. 171 26:40.000 --> 26:49.000 Gotcha. Gotcha. So basically that also helps to explain why you say that your father was a farmer, and when you get to Baton Rouge, it was a rough start. 172 26:49.000 --> 26:49.000 Yeah. Right. 173 26:49.000 --> 27:03.000 He was someone, one who had nothing but basically farm skills who had to search hard to get employment. When do you notice racial tensions beginning to flare? 174 27:03.000 --> 27:04.000 Yeah. 175 27:04.000 --> 27:05.000 Or reveal its ugliness. 176 27:05.000 --> 27:22.000 Yeah. As I got older, it was apparent that certain things, as matter of fact, begin to see it in terms of the public schools. The books that we had were hand-me-downs from the White school. 177 27:22.000 --> 27:26.000 And this was throughout your public school? 178 27:26.000 --> 28:18.000 More or less. More or less. And then, especially when I got in high school, it was nothing if a group of boys around on a corner talking, but officers drive up, get out of the car swinging their Billy clubs and so forth and that would happen from time to time. We had to deal with that and that was, to me, the most shocking aspect of it. Then the other thing was the Joe Lewis, this was during the period and Joe Lewis was fighting. 179 28:18.000 --> 28:20.000 This is still in the late thirties. 180 28:20.000 --> 28:25.000 Yes. The middle. 181 28:25.000 --> 28:27.000 Okay. 182 28:27.000 --> 28:37.000 And Joe Lewis would win and there were certain Whites who go through the Black neighborhood angry and try to create some problems. 183 28:37.000 --> 28:38.000 Oh, because Joe Lewis would've won. 184 28:38.000 --> 28:42.000 Joe Lewis won and he beat a White person. 185 28:42.000 --> 28:43.000 Exactly. 186 28:43.000 --> 29:40.000 And so we had all those kind of things to contend with. And the normal situation in which we saw that the Blacks were getting the short end of the stick. That became very apparent as I moved into the upper elementary and then to high school. Even at the job that I had at the drugstore, what we call soda jerkers, the guys who mixed the sodas at the fountain. They had a fountain, and the one who took the sodas out to the car and put the little tray on the car, they were all White. The people who did the cleaning up and did the delivering were Black. 187 29:40.000 --> 29:42.000 You could have never had one of the soda jerkers. 188 29:42.000 --> 30:10.000 No, indeed never would've. I never would've. So all this plus the fact that all the pharmacists and everybody behind the counter, I did a lot behind the counter, but it was just putting things in place and that sort of thing. But the pharmacist in there, the cliques were all White at this drugstore. 189 30:10.000 --> 30:24.000 What kinds of impressions would these kinds of things begin to leave with you? Or are you so consciously aware at this point in time? 190 30:24.000 --> 31:47.000 Well, I'm constantly aware of those things that happened. Now, of course, I understand them in the context of the period. One other thing that I begin to mow grass for a lot of people, a number of White people, and this is during the latter part of my high school, and even maybe the first year of college. I'd do that on the weekend, especially for many of the teachers at LSU and I got to know some of them very well. I remember one family, the two boys were teaching at LSU, they were twins, and then they had a sister who was married to the man who became the dean of men and so I would wait for them. And then another, there's another fellow right down the street who was a teacher at LSU. We did that and the interesting thing now we'd mow that grass there wasn't any motor on this mower. You had to use your muscles to mow that grass. There wasn't any— 191 31:47.000 --> 31:48.000 It was one of those push kind. 192 31:48.000 --> 31:56.000 Push mower. You had to your muscle. And I think we got a dollar for mowing the lot. One dollar. 193 31:56.000 --> 31:57.000 For an entire lot. 194 31:57.000 --> 31:58.000 Entire lot. 195 31:58.000 --> 32:03.000 How big was the lot? 196 32:03.000 --> 32:12.000 Entire lot and maybe you could do two lots a day. Two lots a day. And so you're talking about $2. This was during the thirties. 197 32:12.000 --> 32:17.000 And it's still in the depression era? 198 32:17.000 --> 32:33.000 Yeah, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. It was rough. That whole period was rough. Yeah. My brother was working. I was working because we both worked at this drugstore a while. 199 32:33.000 --> 32:39.000 By the time that you see the close of the 1930s, you're pretty much maturing to [indistinct 00:32:40]. 200 32:39.000 --> 32:41.000 Yeah. Yeah. I went to college in '36, you see? 201 32:41.000 --> 32:44.000 Okay. 202 32:44.000 --> 32:49.000 I went to Leland for one year, Leland College, which was a Baptist school. 203 32:49.000 --> 32:49.000 Leland. 204 32:49.000 --> 33:04.000 L-E-L-A-N-D, Leland College for one year, and then I transferred to Southern. Leland was at Baker, Louisiana, just above Baton Rouge and Southern was at Scotlandville, just above Baton Rouge. 205 33:04.000 --> 33:04.000 Spell Scotlandville. 206 33:04.000 --> 33:05.000 Scotlandville. 207 33:05.000 --> 33:11.000 Would you spell Scotlandville for me? 208 33:11.000 --> 33:11.000 It's just like Scotland and there's a ville to it. 209 33:11.000 --> 33:14.000 Oh, Scotland. 210 33:14.000 --> 34:10.000 Yeah. S-C-O-T-L-A-N-D-V-I-L-L-E. And I transferred to Southern and I was working on the weekend selling papers and doing various other things. See, I'd work on, well maybe Friday evening, Saturdays mowing grass. And I'd sell papers on a Sunday and sometime in the evening to sell fruit, just push fruit in the wagon and sell fruit and that sort of thing and everything to make a buck and went to school. It was interesting, when I first went to Leland I didn't have the $5. They let me in and I paid them the rest of the money later on. And I went to Southern, I had saved enough money to enter Southern. 211 34:10.000 --> 34:11.000 Okay. 212 34:11.000 --> 34:25.000 Although you're talking about $7, $8, maybe $15 at the most to go to these colleges at that time. And I went on in there to— 213 34:25.000 --> 34:28.000 That in itself, still must have been a sacrifice. 214 34:28.000 --> 35:39.000 Oh, boy. That was rough. And yet, in the context of what was going on, it didn't appear to be anything unusual because that's what we were doing to exist. Even not going to college, it would've been a problem just to survive. And of course, I went there, and of course, at the colleges, you're inspired by these teachers. And these teachers at both schools were Black people who had achieved. At Leland, I was very impressed. The President of Leland was a pastor of Mount Zion Baptist Church where I then was a member. He was the President of the university and he was pastor of the church. And then I transferred to Southern where Dr. J. S. Clark was the President and he was the one who had been the President of Baton Rouge College where my father went. As a matter of fact, my father wanted me to go to Southern again but I didn't. 215 35:39.000 --> 36:39.000 And when I finally transferred to Southern, he said, "Well, I told you so." And so I went on there. But I did not go in to see Dr. Clark, Dr. J. S. Clark, and he wanted me to do that, my father did, but I did not because I didn't want him to associate my father. But anyway, he finally found out about it and he was a little peeved that I didn't come in to see him because while my father and my uncle were students at Baton Rouge College, my grandfather had brought truckload, I mean not truckload, wagon load of food from his farm there to the college. It was a private school. So he remembered that and he would've made some adjustment and job, but that sort of thing but I did not take advantage of that. 216 36:39.000 --> 36:42.000 That's interesting. Did you ever regret not going by there to have a talk? 217 36:42.000 --> 36:56.000 Not really. Not really. Not really, because I thought that it was one of those things that I had to do myself and I decided to go on and do it so I never did really regret it. No. 218 36:56.000 --> 37:07.000 Okay. I see. What are you studying when you go off to college? 219 37:07.000 --> 37:45.000 Well, basically, as I told you, the economy was a little geared toward teaching, so my degree was in the science and mathematics, but in education, but especially in the science and mathematics. So I took all of the math through differential equations, calculus, and all that sort of thing. Took chemistry, biology, physics, and all that at Southern and so when I came out, I was in the sciences. It was in education. 220 37:45.000 --> 37:45.000 Okay. Okay. 221 37:45.000 --> 37:50.000 Yeah. I graduated in 1940. 222 37:50.000 --> 37:55.000 That's what I was about to say. Were you able to finish up before the war broke out? 223 37:55.000 --> 38:53.000 Oh, yeah. I finished up and taught. I taught in a little town, a lumber mill town, Elizabeth, Louisiana. That was in Allen, A-L-L-E-N, Allen Parish, Louisiana, and taught there one year. Incidentally, the young lady that I later married, who's my girlfriend in college, got a job there. Two, I got a job there and she got a job there and we didn't really know it until we compared notes later on. And we had thrown together out there and so the following year after that, we got married and had one child and then she became ill and she'd been ill about 50 years. Wife, she lives up in north Louisiana and the family set up there. Now she's been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. 224 38:53.000 --> 38:55.000 Alzheimer's. 225 38:55.000 --> 38:57.000 Yeah. 226 38:57.000 --> 39:03.000 So now this wife, did the relationship last after she got ill? 227 39:03.000 --> 39:16.000 Oh, yes. I'm still taking care of her and doing everything necessary doing for her. Relationship remained, although she was ill and not able to do anything. 228 39:16.000 --> 39:22.000 Okay. I see. Now how many children came out of that? 229 39:22.000 --> 39:22.000 Just one. 230 39:22.000 --> 39:23.000 Just one? 231 39:23.000 --> 39:23.000 Yeah. 232 39:23.000 --> 39:24.000 Is that the daughter? 233 39:24.000 --> 39:25.000 Daughter, yeah. 234 39:25.000 --> 39:34.000 Okay. Now did you actually, were you drafted during the second war? 235 39:34.000 --> 39:43.000 I was drafted, yeah, nineteen. Got married in 1941 in August, in 1942 in August, I think it's August 8th I went into the service. 236 39:43.000 --> 39:44.000 Okay. 237 39:44.000 --> 39:54.000 Yeah. I went into the service and I was sent finally for basic training to Fort Sill in Oklahoma. 238 39:54.000 --> 39:56.000 And that's Fort Sill? 239 39:56.000 --> 40:26.000 Fort Sill, S-I-L-L. The seat of the field artillery school. The field artillery school is at Fort Sill. I took my basic training, then they sent me to what they call a prep school and then I went on from prep school to Officer Candidate School and I was commissioned as a second lieutenant in field artillery in 19— 240 40:26.000 --> 40:29.000 What is this word you're pronouncing? Field? 241 40:29.000 --> 40:31.000 Field artillery. 242 40:31.000 --> 40:31.000 Field. 243 40:31.000 --> 40:41.000 Field artillery. 244 40:41.000 --> 40:41.000 Okay. 245 40:41.000 --> 40:41.000 Yeah. 246 40:41.000 --> 40:42.000 I gotcha. 247 40:42.000 --> 42:03.000 I was commissioned in 1943. I went in in '42. In August, I was commissioned in March of '43. Now, there was some interesting things at school. I was in one class and there were six men huts and, of course, they assigned you by the name. And B, I was with the high in alphabets out there and there were five Whites in the hut and one Black. And it happened that my wife became ill. That is when she became ill the first time. And oh, let's see, I went in to the artillery school I'm not sure when, but it must have been either December or January, maybe it was December. And of course, my people got in touch with the Red Cross, at least her people, my wife's people, she was living with them. Then incidentally, when I went in, she was pregnant then in 1942. 248 42:03.000 --> 42:06.000 Did you know she was pregnant before you left? 249 42:06.000 --> 42:17.000 Oh, yeah. She was almost ready to deliver, I think. I went in August and the baby was born in December. December the fifth, 1942. 250 42:17.000 --> 42:18.000 All right. 251 42:18.000 --> 43:05.000 And so it must have been late December, or early January that her people had the Red Cross to get me to come there. Not that really, they shouldn't have, but they did. But the interesting thing is, when I was leaving, or maybe it was when I came back. I think it's when I came back. I was gone for two weeks. When I came back, I went back by this place where I was in that hut because I think I left my stuff there with them and I wanted to get, and one of the White fellas from North Carolina who didn't say too much to me while we were there together, but he said, "Well, I want to tell you one thing." 252 43:05.000 --> 44:14.000 He said, "I'm from North Carolina and I'll be perfectly honest with you, when I was assigned, I was very displeased to be in his hut with you. Because my background had been around intelligent people." Incidentally, this is '42, I was out of college and he said he hadn't been around college people and Blacks. And he said, "The one thing that I noticed, in a very positive way, is every time you got ready to go to bed, you dropped to your knees and said your prayer." He said, "That impressed me more than anything else." And he said, "I just wanted to let you know that I'm sorry that you're not remaining in the hut, you have to go to the other class." See a class every week coming in the field artillery school, so I just picked up the class where I left off when I left to go and I had to go to another class and he said, "I'm sorry you're not remaining here with it." 253 44:14.000 --> 45:15.000 That's a guy from North Carolina. But I was eventually commissioned as a second lieutenant and then the problem really began there in terms of the race and things. Because it's Jim Crow Island and they really had nowhere to send us at that time or they decided not to send us. So they assigned us to the field artillery school. Safety officers and various other places like that. We were very sharp because it just had come out of field artillery school, which is a top flight school, and we were there and they knew we knew all of the details of the field artillery, what an officer should be and what he's supposed to know and so they assigned us as safety officers and that sort of thing. 254 45:15.000 --> 46:09.000 Safety officers you see at Fort Sill, they're shooting these guns all over the place so you're assigned an area to do the shoot. The guns are back somewhere, you don't know where they are, but people directing the shoot up at what they call an observation post and identify a target out there and they'd get one shot out there and he would justify on that target. The safety officer remains at the guns and make sure that all of the shoot every shot is within the safety range that they have given him that you shoot within this range. That's outside of this range and so he's responsible for that and he could be court marshaled if you allow them to shoot outside of the range. 255 46:09.000 --> 46:09.000 Oh really? 256 46:09.000 --> 46:10.000 Yeah, because that could be dangerous. 257 46:10.000 --> 46:11.000 Yeah. 258 46:11.000 --> 46:29.000 So that's a key deal. Interestingly, in one of these situations, one of the commands came down.