WEBVTT 1 00:04.000 --> 00:13.000 Let's see. Has that changed, though? Have they stopped being so conniving in how they arrange their [crosstalk 00:00:13]? 2 00:13.000 --> 00:45.000 It's more subtle. Because you can't prove it anymore. It's something you can't prove. For example, this is what I sense, but like I said, I can't prove anything. I think we had 11 first grades. I know certain teachers get what I call all of the better honed and smarter children, and they have fewer problems. When you have a lot of problems, and you know you have problems, that doesn't appear to be a mistake. 3 00:45.000 --> 00:52.000 Did you ever have problems, back in the sixties, with your supervisors, or things like that? Were they always fair in the way they treated you? 4 00:52.000 --> 01:17.000 Okay, that's a real good question. I remember, when I had Mr. Johnson, I was never afraid, afraid. When, in later years, I used to sort of be afraid. Mr. Johnson was Black, Dr. Keever was Black. As far as I know, I got outstanding evaluations. And then I had another, I had a Ms. Fisher and she was White. I remember them being very fair. I'm trying to remember. 5 01:17.000 --> 01:40.000 Okay. When I went to South—Okay, even at Great Bridge, I think the biggest thing that got me in trouble was I have always been a pro-Afrocentric thinking person, even if I didn't exhibit. I was not the type who would wear a Malcolm X shirt and do those kind of things, or even appear radical, but I always never lost whatever it is about you that makes you know are Black. 6 01:40.000 --> 02:15.000 Okay. There are two kinds of Black folk in schools. There are those who don't want any White person to know what they think, or they don't show it. Well, I was one that if it came—For example, I remember the Black History Month. I always had enough, and I have to use the word nerve, to go ahead and make a Black History Bowl. I don't care who did and who didn't, they always knew I was going to have one. That's when it wasn't popular to do it. I always knew that, because that was just like the one time you did it. Well, then, see, I got a little battle down through the years. I was smart enough to know you put these pictures of Blacks throughout the school year, that can get you in trouble. 7 02:15.000 --> 02:28.000 So to answer you in a roundabout way, I got in trouble more with being the kind of person I was than what I actually did. So that's why I say it was not done in a fair way. 8 02:28.000 --> 02:36.000 Well, you mentioned you were always aware of your African heritage, your African American heritage. Did your parents teach you that or is it something that came later on? 9 02:36.000 --> 03:03.000 It's something that probably came more later on. Because I remember, going back at the time, I remember when I was not proud of any of that. I didn't see it as a sense of pride like I do now. Like if you notice my pictures and things that I have. Now, this is really recent, recent, but the attitude has been—That picture straight over there. See? And on the other side. And my decorations, all of this is very, very recent, like within this year. I have thought it, but I never did it. 10 03:03.000 --> 03:13.000 But I don't know what made me do that. And it just started in a gradual way. And I said, "Now, it's like I have no choice. That's the way to go." But I know that could be through my daughter. 11 03:13.000 --> 03:15.000 But you always did that, [indistinct 00:03:15]. 12 03:15.000 --> 03:29.000 But coming up, I was always a positive person. But I don't think I was the kind who would have leaned in this direction based on how I always thought White was better. So I'm just, to answer you, I would say years ago I never would've done it this way. 13 03:29.000 --> 03:33.000 Do you think that whiter was always better, White was always better— 14 03:33.000 --> 03:34.000 When I was younger. Yeah. 15 03:34.000 --> 03:36.000 —was something that was taught to you through the school system? 16 03:36.000 --> 04:27.000 It was taught through even in the Black community. So I'm just saying that didn't come from a White situation. It was like an understanding, unstated something you saw, you knew. For example, I remember certain ministers, no matter how dark they were, they were. And the more prominent they were, the lighter their wives were. And this was on an educated level, uneducated. And even in the professional life, any prominent Black man normally appeared to have a light wife. Now this is, like I said, it was a community thing. This wasn't just from a White perspective, this was just something that was done. But I think it stemmed from the way of life, that we thought White was better. 17 04:27.000 --> 04:30.000 Were the images in magazines and things like that reinforcing that? 18 04:30.000 --> 05:01.000 Years ago, especially in Ebony. Okay. Okay, I'm going to tell you when I really realized that Black was nice. It was when James Brown came with this song, "I'm Black and I'm proud." And my daughter was a baby. And I remember people in my family thought that she was a little too dark. And it's almost like it was like an insult to me. 19 05:01.000 --> 05:27.000 Then right at that time, when she was a baby, I remember remembering that I was going to always treat her without straightening her hair, which I did. I didn't straighten her hair. She wore a little afro, she wore whatever. I didn't straighten her hair until she was a big girl. Because by that time, I had determined, and that was in the sixties, '66 and on, and that's when it was popular for darker skin folk to feel a sense of self-esteem. 20 05:27.000 --> 05:34.000 So that's how I really came to really understand an appreciation through that era. And I guess you would call that the later— 21 05:34.000 --> 05:35.000 Civil Rights [indistinct 00:05:35]. 22 05:35.000 --> 05:38.000 —Civil Rights time. That's when that became— 23 05:38.000 --> 05:39.000 Black power. 24 05:39.000 --> 05:57.000 Right, Black power, the Afrocentric. Because I remember I had a afro, no, I had two afro wigs. Well three, I had a black one, a brown one, and a red one. And because I didn't have an afro per se, I wore this Afro wig. But it looked more curly, it wouldn't scare anybody. But yet, it was with the times. I wore an afro wig. 25 05:57.000 --> 06:02.000 When you were growing up, did you ever feel like a second-class citizen because of the system of segregation? 26 06:02.000 --> 06:40.000 I'm almost certain we did. But like I say, we had so much love in our home. It's almost like you hear people saying, "I was poor and didn't know it." I really believe it was more of that we had the sense of you can become anything you want to be. At that time, I didn't know how high I could be, but I never felt inferior, in the complete sense, to a depressive state. But yet it was almost, you sense it from the unfairness of it. But it didn't hold us back. So we always had, like I said, my mama was a great cook. She always had some activity going on. I worked at Bible school all through the years. 27 06:40.000 --> 06:51.000 Going back to the James Brown situation, I was going to tell you something I did in college years. I know I did this. I used to always use a bleach cream called Nadinola to lighten my skin. 28 06:51.000 --> 06:52.000 And you stopped doing that? 29 06:52.000 --> 07:04.000 I stopped doing that during the James Brown time. But prior to that, like this time of year, you wouldn't see me in the sun. I would bleach my arms and my face. 30 07:04.000 --> 07:07.000 Would they sell that in magazines and groceries? 31 07:07.000 --> 07:16.000 It was in magazines and at Woolsworth. That's one reason why you had to go to the store on Saturday, to make sure you had that. You went to Norfolk to buy that. 32 07:16.000 --> 07:21.000 You weren't here when a lot of the sit-ins and things like that were happening. 33 07:21.000 --> 07:45.000 I'm trying to think where, but I was aware of it. So maybe some of that came from the Ebony, because I knew about the one in Greensburg, North Carolina. I was aware of that. So I can't remember where I was. But that was during my college years in Maryland. Like I said, it wasn't as pronounced as, I believe, as it might have been in Virginia. I think Virginia would've been more vocal. 34 07:45.000 --> 07:53.000 Now, while you were away in Japan with your husband, your first husband, you would hear about, say, what was happening Birmingham and [indistinct 00:07:53]? 35 07:53.000 --> 08:01.000 Yes, we we heard of bombings. Like when that church was bombed, I can't remember the year, I knew about that. I really knew about that. 36 08:01.000 --> 08:02.000 Where the little girls were killed? 37 08:02.000 --> 08:14.000 And the little girls. We knew about. So I think a lot of that had to be in Ebony. Because even overseas, if I'm not mistaken, I think I must have been able to get Ebony, because I don't remember ever not knowing certain things. 38 08:14.000 --> 08:22.000 I'm going back a little bit. What were some of the gathering places in your community when you were growing up? Were there places where people gathered to talk or— 39 08:22.000 --> 08:22.000 Church. 40 08:22.000 --> 08:23.000 Church. 41 08:23.000 --> 08:27.000 But to talk as, what level of talking do you mean? 42 08:27.000 --> 08:30.000 Just like on a Saturday afternoon, where did people gather? 43 08:30.000 --> 08:54.000 In front of a store also. But I would say in churches. And we weren't in this part, but anywhere they had a church. And they had, what they call in Atlanta Avenue, a beer garden. But that would be nothing but a tavern now, but we didn't participate in that. But I will say community people sort of gathered around the outside of a store called Mr. Jerry's Store. 44 08:54.000 --> 08:55.000 Mr. Jerry's? 45 08:55.000 --> 09:00.000 Mr. Jerry's. Jerry Wilson. 46 09:00.000 --> 09:06.000 Did you ever get to go to the movie theaters? 47 09:06.000 --> 09:07.000 I didn't go to the movie until I was grown. I was grown. As a child, I was never allowed. 48 09:07.000 --> 09:15.000 What about healthcare in this area? Was there an African American doctor or African American dentist? 49 09:15.000 --> 09:49.000 Okay. There was a Dr. Paulson, but he was in Norfolk. And there were some doctors in Berkeley. But remember, this was more of a rural type neighborhood. It wasn't country, country, but it was just a little step from country, country. But it was like everybody had individual houses, and it was paths and unpaid roads. Well, Berkeley was a city. So that was, like I said, a Dr. Webb's drugstore. And we went to a White doctor, believe it or not. Dr. Jennings, J-E-N-N-I-N-G-S. 50 09:49.000 --> 09:51.000 Would you ever go to Webb's drugstore? 51 09:51.000 --> 10:23.000 I don't remember going. Because your mother and parents used any remedy that they could use. Mother used home remedies and things. It had to be, I don't even remember ever going to a hospital in my life until I had my daughter. But I do remember I had to go to, I'm going to say Doctor Jennings, for a physical to get into Norfolk State. But other than that, I remember one time I cut my foot and that was when doctors came to the houses. Your doctor came here. But there was not that much illness, so we did not have medical situations. 52 10:23.000 --> 10:25.000 So your mother knew how to treat things at the house? 53 10:25.000 --> 10:56.000 Whatever mother group. Something called Jemison weed, J-E-M-I-S-O-N. Jemison weed. Even to this day. And she had something called poke, P-O-K-E, root. Mother had a plant for everything. [indistinct 00:10:39] tea, horehound tea. She could go out in the woods or the yard and find it and she'd boil it. Caster oil was a medicine. If you had a cold, ran everything out. Horehound tea for colds. Certain kind of mints, parsnip for stomach ache. 54 10:56.000 --> 11:00.000 Did she tell you where she learned how to make all of this? 55 11:00.000 --> 11:12.000 I'm going to attribute that to her parents. Or either her grandparents, but she didn't say. But at that time they were called home remedies. 56 11:12.000 --> 11:12.000 And that's what— 57 11:12.000 --> 11:18.000 That's what kept her—You could believe we didn't have any doctor bills, and you definitely didn't have health insurance. 58 11:18.000 --> 11:21.000 Is there anything else you'd like to add to this? I'm pretty much through with the questions. 59 11:21.000 --> 11:30.000 I can't think of anything that you didn't touch. I was trying to think, from the article, of what might be inclusive. 60 11:30.000 --> 11:35.000 Because they talked about, in that article, riding the buses and things like that. 61 11:35.000 --> 12:04.000 Oh, I had to ride a bus. I had to walk all the way to South Norfolk, which is a great distance by today's standards, to go to Norfolk State. And at one point, I think the New Light bus, which I mentioned, was maybe about three blocks, which would be up on Atlantic Avenue. But the thing was, you had to get on it at a certain time. So that meant you stayed in school all day. Or you synchronized your times. You had to get on very, very early to get to school. And you had to get a certain bus, not to be too late to miss whatever was the last bus. 62 12:04.000 --> 12:06.000 Did you prefer riding the New Light bus? 63 12:06.000 --> 12:31.000 That was my only choice. Oh. That was a man named Mr. Reddy. He worked at the Chevrolet place. He had a car where my dad didn't have a car. We paid him $5, I'm going to just say a week, to ride. It was almost like it wasn't easy to do what you did. Two other girls from this neighborhood started when that started, but they did not finish. And we all would hitch, what we called catch a ride, we paid him or something. 64 12:31.000 --> 12:38.000 Was it unusual for people in this neighborhood to go to Norfolk State? To go to college? 65 12:38.000 --> 13:02.000 Okay. Well, it depends on how you look at it. We had only 20. Now, a person told me we had 19 in our class. Coca. See, I told him I thought we had 25 to graduate. Well, he saw another number. I know the class was very small. When you consider how few people we had, the percentage who had the opportunity. Like I say, the way that I went to school was the way I told you, with that hundred dollars. Had I not had that, I probably wouldn't have gone to school. 66 13:02.000 --> 13:34.000 Now, I'm sure maybe there would have been another option because maybe my mother would've known that maybe she could go through the school. But it was the money that was the base that let us know I could go. There were not that many people, at that time, in that position, to send their children. Because when I say working class, meant a lot of people worked in fields, and most of the ladies did they's work. They didn't have these good paying jobs like people—So people just survived with their family. It was like college was not an option for most folk. 67 13:34.000 --> 13:35.000 That's what I was asking. 68 13:35.000 --> 13:47.000 It was not an option. Believe me. Even, like I said, the two girls that started when I did, they used to work at the beach, but they ended up getting married before they finished. But one did go back and finish college in later years. 69 13:47.000 --> 13:54.000 I have another question about the New Light bus. Was that just in this neighborhood? Or— 70 13:54.000 --> 14:08.000 As far as I know. It was like a bus that just sort of trailed, because it wasn't even that many roads. It started way down in New Light and it had a designated route. So it was really just for this area. It was the only way people in this area could get where they going to get without going all the way to South Norfolk. 71 14:08.000 --> 14:10.000 So there weren't any city trolleys? 72 14:10.000 --> 14:12.000 Oh no, not at all out here. No trolleys. 73 14:12.000 --> 14:13.000 Oh, okay. 74 14:13.000 --> 14:14.000 No city transportation. 75 14:14.000 --> 14:20.000 Did you feel better about riding the New Light bus, say, than the trolleys where you had to sit in the back? 76 14:20.000 --> 14:42.000 On the New Light, it was crowded for a different reason. It was all Black. It was just crowded because it was crowded. So, in South Norfolk, I'm trying to remember, by the time I was on college level, where people were more vocal, I'm sure we had that anger. But when we were real young, I don't remember the anger as much as people now have anger about things. 77 14:42.000 --> 14:46.000 But you did want to ride in the front of the bus when they— 78 14:46.000 --> 15:15.000 Absolutely. I remember. So that's why I say it must have been something there, because I can remember this. And I remember what my daddy said. He was afraid that we were so brave. And even though it was the law. So that shows me the attitude that I had as a young person. Because one thing in college, I think we learned enough about history of civics, of what, to know what your rights were. So it was one of those things. And he was afraid. But that was the other thing to let me know that we did communicate at home, because we respected my daddy's opinions and all. 79 15:15.000 --> 15:20.000 Did you ever not go to stores because they didn't serve you? You couldn't [indistinct 00:15:20]- 80 15:20.000 --> 15:59.000 I'm almost positive. And that could have been two reasons too. One could have been because we didn't have enough money. Like Angel Brown was real expensive and Schwartz was very—But there were stores where I know we weren't welcome. So I don't know it was because of the lack of the income or if it were both. But I know there were stores that you just didn't go in. But I'm not positive to what the reason, because there was also, what you would call sort of private, they weren't private, but they were more specialized stores on Freemason Street right across from Grande. Well, I know we never went in those. Later years, when I could afford to go, I just still knew too expensive. 81 15:59.000 --> 16:04.000 But, at that point, you never chose not to go to a store because they wouldn't allow you to— 82 16:04.000 --> 16:07.000 My mama might. But she would probably know the answer better than I do. 83 16:07.000 --> 16:14.000 Okay. Well, that's about all the questions I have for you, so I'll shut this off. Tell me about math and [indistinct 00:16:14]. 84 16:14.000 --> 17:00.000 Okay, I'm telling you that I graduated from high school when electives were not as mandated as they are today. I took Algebra 1 and I never remember taking Algebra 2 to graduate. But I remember Ms. Shirley S. Brown taught one of my electives. Shirley, Ms. Shirley Brown. One of my electives was shorthand, one was typing. I was in the chorus, I was in the band. I don't remember being in the drama club per se, but I say I have a question mark about that. But I know I took, journalism was one of my classes, and I was the news reporter for the Journaling Guide and wrote a weekly article. 85 17:00.000 --> 17:02.000 So you wrote a weekly article about Carver High? 86 17:02.000 --> 17:05.000 About Carver High, the Carver High News. 87 17:05.000 --> 17:07.000 Was there a school newspaper or anything? 88 17:07.000 --> 17:30.000 Yeah, that was a school—One time, I don't want to say I was an editor-in-chief, I just don't want to say that. But I had some role, because Mr. Joseph C. Webb was a history and journalism teacher, and I had a major role with that school newspaper. But it wasn't published the way we are, it was on the blue and white [indistinct 00:17:30] graph type paper. 89 17:30.000 --> 17:32.000 And y'all would talk about what was going on at school? 90 17:32.000 --> 17:46.000 The games. You had a little byline. Popular things that were going on, the football games and activities. And I can't remember if it was weekly or monthly, but I wrote weekly for the Journaling Guide. 91 17:46.000 --> 17:47.000 Were you paid for that? 92 17:47.000 --> 17:52.000 Oh no, no, no. That was just something we did. 93 17:52.000 --> 17:53.000 And you'd write about what was going on in the school? 94 17:53.000 --> 18:02.000 School, right. And that was printed, just like my picture is right here. It was printed in this particular paper. 95 18:02.000 --> 18:03.000 Did your mother— 96 18:03.000 --> 18:18.000 Now, mother has clippings of that. And if I think hard, I can find one of mine. I don't know if you would ever need one, but I should have one of those somewhere in the scrapbook. Okay.