-: Annie, thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed.
If we could start with some background information,
first could you say your full name?
-: Yes, Annie Wu, W-U, King, K-I-N-G.
-: Thank you very much and Annie, are you lay or clergy?
-: I'm an elder.
-: Okay, in the Presbyterian Church USA, right?
-: Correct.
-: Good, and could you say a little bit
about when and where you were born?
-: I was born in 1933 in Nanchang, Jiangxi Province, China.
-: Oh my goodness, that is really interesting.
Where did you go to school, graduate or divinity school,
college, any of those?
-: I never completed high school because I was in the
Shanghai American School that closed during the change
in government, but I was accepted at
the University of Pennsylvania and I majored
in what was called Oriental Studies.
I took it as a B.A. but that was actually
a Master's course.
Then in the University of Louisville, in Kentucky,
I got my Master's in social work and went on
to become a licensed clinical social worker.
-: Oh, fascinating, thank you so much.
Could you talk about what work or ministry you were doing
at the time of Re-Imagining, that was 1993.
-: I had been invited by Mary Ann Lundy to apply
when she was the director of what was called
the Women's Ministry Unit.
I was asked to apply for the associate director
so I was holding that job, I was associate director
from 1989, and that meant coordinating staff
and the senates around the country
and also managing the budget, which had to do
with Re-Imagining, as you can imagine.
Then when Mary Ann Lundy left in July of 1993,
to take a different position in the building,
I became the interim.
The whole organization was changing names
and changing structure, so I was called
the Interim Associate Director, which was still the head
of the women's ministries.
-: Okay, that is very helpful.
You were also coordinator of staff and senate,
is that correct?
-: That's correct.
When I began, we had 14, 15, 16 staff all around
the country because we believed in getting the woman
in the pew involved in women's ministries
so we wanted staff close to them.
-: Okay, well that's interesting, great.
And what work or ministry did you do
after Re-Imagining, Annie?
-: I continued, we did hire another associate director,
but I continued as coordinator of staff and left there,
and I left the building, I was quote "downsized" in 2002,
when they had a shortfall of (mumbles) and money.
Lots of people were let go at that time.
-: Okay, and Annie, how and when did you first
become aware of feminist theology?
-: Ha ha, that's a funny question, I'm sorry, it's not funny.
After I finished my University of Pennsylvania work,
my husband, Doug King and I went to Indonesia
to teach in the university.
While we were there, a good friend of mine,
Polly Johnson, was sending me some books
on feminist theology.
I have to admit that I was so busy that I didn't read
much of them and at the time, my efforts were
in teaching at the university.
But that's when I first became aware of it.
-: Oh, interesting.
How did your interest in it grow then eventually?
-: When I came back to the states to work
and I was working in Louisville, Kentucky, I was working
with an assisted living place which is a program
for people with disabilities.
We worked with people who had disabilities and were trying
to become more independent and live on their own.
I was working there but had no pension,
I was past 50 years old, the salary at that time
was about $16,000.
One day, Mary Ann Lundy called me and said, "Do you know
"that I have a position open for an associate director?"
And I thought, what does that require?
She said, "You have to coordinate the staff and
"the senate and you have to do the budget."
And I said, "Budget, I don't know anything about a budget."
I never had any money.
(interviewer laughing)
She said, "Oh, that's the easy part."
So that's when I did apply and I did get the position
and was working at Presbyterian headquarters
from 1998 on until 2002.
Gradually Mary Ann, of course, was very much involved
in Re-Imagining and would talk with me about it,
but before that, our own women's ministry committees,
which was made up of people from around the country,
it was like a board.
They as well as some of the staff, we were talking
about having a conference of women from around
the country and maybe the world but we didn't have any money
for that sort of thing.
When the Interfaith group in Minneapolis started talking
about Re-Imagining, that was really exciting to us.
Of course Mary Ann was one of the prime movers of that.
-: So how did you know Mary Ann Lundy?
-: I had met her earlier, before I got the job,
in Justice for Women, that was a women's ministry,
but at a Justice for Women social gathering.
I had talked with her and met her just as a friend,
so she knew about me and that's the way I got to know her.
-: Oh, nice, okay.
So you were involved in women's ministry at the time
that Re-Imagining was being planned.
Do you have any memories about how that evolved,
the planning involved and the idea?
-: I don't have any memories of the ins and outs of all that,
but because Mary Ann would go to planning meetings
in Minneapolis and so on, she'd come back
and she would talk to me about what they were hoping to do.
What especially interested me was that they were planning
to have women theologians from around the world.
To me, that just struck home because my father was
Chinese, my mother was an American from Philadelphia,
she had gone in as a nurse, so the international part of it
was very exciting to me.
The other thing was that Mary Ann and I had discussed
did we have any money to contribute
to a Re-Imagining budget.
Of course, that's the issue that became such a hot issue
at Re-Imagining but Mary Ann was very knowledgeable
about her budget and, of course I had to be too,
so she said, "Well, such and such a fund,"
and I said, "Oh yeah, that's good,"
'cause that was for education and so on,
so that's where we got our, I think around $66,000.
-: Exactly, yes, that's right.
Annie, did you have a chance to attend the
Re-Imagining conference?
-: Oh yeah, in fact, of course Mary Ann left
the position in women's ministries like I said,
in July of 1993.
She and I were always in touch though because she
was still in the building and she was doing another job.
At that time, the Presbyterian church was
sort of restructuring and that was part of her job
under Jim Brown, and the top office, so we had to discuss
about how we were going to deal with the staff
and the senates and how could we still serve the women
in the pew but change job positions and so on.
We talked a lot about that and Re-Imagining.
My question to Mary Ann at that time, just to get her
advice, was, I said, "I believe this is the first time
"our staff can get to hear so many women
"from around the world, women theologians,
"and around the country in fact."
I said, "I would like to have all of our staff
"and all the associates and so on,
"go to the conference."
She said, "Of course."
We did decide that I would ask all the staff to go,
they could use their travel budget, they didn't have to pay
for the travel there because this would be
an educational thing and helpful to the women in the church
when they went back to their own homes.
So that's how we started working on that.
I did tell all the staff, all of the exempt staff,
that they could go and they all went.
-: They all went and Annie, just to clarify,
was this staff in the women's division that went?
-: Yeah, I'm talking about the staff in the women's unit
as the women's program area, yes.
I meant nothing to do with the rest of the staff.
-: Sure and, Annie I know it's been a long time,
but what are your memories of the Re-Imagining Conference?
-: Oh, you don't want to get in ... Well, actually,
I have many memories.
I don't know how much you want, but the thing that
I personally exhibit or felt, when I went into
the first session, went into the big room where
we had the (mumbles), I was overwhelmed.
Partly because I had not experienced a lot
of big conferences.
Coming back from China, not after the Cultural Revolution,
but coming from China to Hong Kong, I was a refuge
in Hong Kong and then from Hong Kong to the states,
I didn't have a lot of opportunity like some women did,
to go to this conference and that conference.
I was a little bit hesitant
and apprehensive that I wouldn't know
what to do or how to relate to all these women
so I was overwhelmed.
It was so different, when I walked into that first room,
here there were tables that we were assigned to
and I didn't know anybody.
I wasn't sitting with any of my friends and I didn't
even know the stage was.
The stage was, of course, in the center
of what's a circle and so, it was just
a little bit overwhelming.
I wasn't sure ... Are you there?
-: Oh yes, I am, listening.
-: Okay, I wasn't sure whether I would be able
to participate correctly in other words.
That was something that came to me at the beginning.
Then, when I heard the different speakers,
that was something that was important, the stage,
which was in the center of the circle,
the speakers would move around.
There were different presenters,
different song leaders
and no one seemed to be the big shot.
Everybody had a role and everybody
in that plenary room was equal.
That began to make a difference to me.
I'm getting off a little bit but part of
what happened to me, personally, when I was
rather apprehensive and things that I hadn't heard before
from different theologians.
Some things, I thought oh that's crazy, I can't be that,
and then I started questioning myself.
The thing that helped me, there were a couple of things
and very briefly, experiences.
One was when I went back to China to my family
after the Cultural Revolution.
My father died and I went back for the Easter service,
one of the first Easter services after the churches
were reopened and the church was packed.
I admitted that the churches had been closed,
so I asked a former pastor of mine, "Where did
"all these people come from?
"They don't know anything about Christianity.
"It's not like you had church members."
No, we weren't preaching, we weren't allowed to preach
but we had Christians and they learned and then
they were working in the factories and everywhere,
and this pastor said to me, "Other people,
"non-Christians, saw these people, and there
"in this Cultural Revolution especially, when people
"were afraid to do anything or say anything,
"these Christians would show concern about their
"colleagues, their coworkers.
"They had a different way of relating to others,
"a caring, a loving way so people would wonder,
"what is this, what's different with these people
"called Christians."
When the churches were opened, they started to go
with the Christians to the church to see what it
was all about.
To me, it was okay, Annie, you don't know
in your rigid, traditional way of seeing God,
you don't know how God works.
God works in all sorts of ways.
So when I was at Re-Imagining, I felt it all so some
of these theologies that I wasn't comfortable with,
I said, "I can't write them off, nor can I
"write myself off.
"I can listen, and learn, and take what I can."
So that experience in China, then the second experience
was in Indonesia when we were serving there.
We were there during the 1965 coup d'etat
and many thousands of people were killed.
Many people were accused of being communists.
Actually some were, some weren't,
but they were put in prison so there were thousands
of people in prison.
Then I heard that some of the churches,
the little churches in the villages felt sorry
for the people in prison because nobody
was really taking care of them, so they would walk
miles and miles and take food and clothing
to the prisoners at their own expense
and at the possibility that they would be accused
of being communists.
I thought, here, again, was a community where God
was working and I didn't understand it.
These things helped me to feel more at ease
with the different theologies and, especially
when the women would talk about the conditions
in their own countries and in their villages,
the poverty, the situations.
That just rang a bell and I felt so good about it.
Sorry, I keep babbling on.
-: No, Annie, you have had an amazing life and those
were really important experiences
that related to Re-Imagining.
Thank you for sharing that.
I was wondering if you have memories of what particularly
bothered you at the presentations?
Let's start with that, do you remember
anything in particular?
-: Well, partly, I'm not a theologian, that wasn't my field.
I did take some theology courses at
the University of Pennsylvania but that really wasn't
my strong point.
I just remember some of the statements of, I think
it was Delores Williams talking about we don't need
someone hanging on a cross leading sort of thing.
I thought, well what does that mean?
I was brought up believing that Christ
was crucified and it was just uncomfortable, I should say.
Some of the paintings, her drawings were just things
that I was not used to.
But, again, I gradually was able to say, "Okay, I do not
have to accept everything that I hear.
They weren't the same anyway, people were not
on the same page, which of course made that
a beautiful situation because they all
learned different things.
I also did not have to just throw out
all that I had believed before because when I
was a teenager in China, this was after
the government changed to the People's Republic,
I had wanted to become a pastor.
I walked with my Chinese pastor there,
and I said, "I want to study theology."
Of course, my Chinese really wasn't good enough
to do it in China and he suggested I go to Trinity College
or Seminary in Singapore I think it was, or (mumbles)
in New York.
I later found out he was a communist but he
was very knowledgeable with me and he was a good pastor.
There were things that I had really believed in strongly,
and some of these were being challenged.
Some of them I've let go.
I can't really remember just exactly how
to tell you about that.
-: Annie, what made you not become a minister?
-: A couple of things, one is that I didn't have any money.
My father was a top tuberculosis doctor in China
but he was on a regular salary so we had very little money.
I couldn't get out, I was a Chinese citizen
and leaving was difficult so I just never did.
Then when I finally did come out, I was a refuge,
I had no passport and I had to wait until
the U.S. government gave me a special passport
because I had friends who were trying to solicit
their senators to let me come into the states
because my mother was an American citizen.
You see, at that time, when I was born in 1933,
if the mother was an American citizen and living
and the child was born in a different country,
that child could not have dual citizenship.
If the father was American, then I could
have had dual citizenship.
When my brother was born two years later,
and, again, this is the woman thing, women don't count.
When my brother was born two years later,
he could have dual citizenship because the law
had changed in the states.
So coming out was not easy, coming out of China.
Then by the time I got my refuge and came to the states,
things had changed and I just didn't get it.
I didn't go forward with that.
-: Oh Annie, that's amazing.
Before you move on to the backlash, I did want to ask
if you had anything, you mentioned that you
really appreciated the women from other countries
talking about the situation of women there.
Is there anything else that you recall about
the conference that you found inspiring or helpful?
-: Yeah, I think that maybe for the first time,
I really can't say, but I felt affirmed.
I felt, I am all right as a woman.
I am all right as a disabled woman.
I had polio when I was eight months old.
Because there were people there, men and women,
who were disabled and that was affirmed.
It wasn't horrible, it wasn't a handicap.
As for my sexual orientation, I felt I was married,
I had been married for 23 years and then we were divorced
but we were still good friends.
So all of that was affirmed there at the conference.
For the first time, I felt safe and accepted
as a woman and who I was, which sort of ties
into the background, and maybe I shouldn't get into that,
you know the backlash afterwards?
-: Oh yes, I did want to hear about that.
Please, tell me.
-: When I was at the conference, we went
to the Presbyterian church, those of us
who were Presbyterian, went to the Presbyterian Church
first for something or other, and I had put my backpack
with all my cash and everything under a coat hanging
in the lobby or someplace.
It was stolen, so I had no cash, no credit cards,
no identity, no tickets, nothin'.
-: Oh Annie.
-: Of course, I had friends who helped me out.
When I got back to Louisville and started getting,
I had to field some of the calls.
The calls were really not very personal against me,
except I was in the top person in women's ministries,
and women's ministries was attacked and I was the person
who told the staff to go to the conference
and I was the person who was the budget person
who gave the money.
But I knew that they were really after Mary Ann Lundy.
I felt so demeaned and so put down and the loss
of what I had gained at the conference, so I
was just comparing this in a piece that I had given
in July of 1994, Presbyterian women had a gathering
every year or every few years and I was asked
to do a forum on the Imagining, so I had written a paper
which I happened to find, and some of what I've
been telling you reminded me of some of the things
that I had written there.
The loss of my money, the loss of my credit card,
the loss of everything else was nothing compared
to the attack that I felt upon women, and especially
women's ministries and part of it personally.
I had lost money, that didn't matter.
But losing what I had been feeling at the conference
and being demeaned because I believed and enjoyed
and appreciated the conference was a much greater loss.
-: Oh, Annie.
Before I forget, if you do find a copy of that,
if you would be willing to send it to me,
I would really appreciate it.
-: Sure, okay, I can do that.
-: Yeah, it sounds very powerful.
When you said it demeaned, I don't know how much
you want to go into detail, but what was sort of
the tenor of the attacks against the women's division?
How would you describe it?
-: It wasn't always from the laymen and if you
are familiar with it, it is the organization, the laymen,
and of course they attacked us.
And especially later on, attacked our young women.
-: You mean in the college group,
the network of Presbyterian women, college women?
-: The Presbyterian college women, not so much
the (mumbles) women, the older ... We had different parts
of the women and women's ministries.
We had one program with Presbyterian women,
that's the traditional women's group.
We had women employed by the church, those were the clergy,
women in the states and the secretaries
and anybody else.
We had women of color and that program, of course,
was for women of color especially and then we
had the advocacy program.
So we've got the four programs, but then we also help
support a young woman in the U.N. office,
and we also had a growing college women network
of amazing young women, some of who have gone on
to do great things.
Of course in the later years, when I was still there,
they attacked the young women especially,
and the young women's network was put under,
I can't remember how they said it,
but they were going to inspect or supervise
and see what was going on with them.
Of course, later on that was thrown out,
there was nothing there.
Of course, for women's ministries, the staff
there was, what was so demeaning was that they
discounted anything that we had heard or learned or felt
at the conference.
The detractors were never there themselves,
they never experience it.
But I think many of them, they were not all men.
Part of it is, maybe a threat
to the male dominance in the church all these years.
I think that's a part of it, but the other part was,
there were women too, and it's scary when your own
traditions or your own beliefs are challenged.
Re-Imagining challenged some of those beliefs
just as I challenged them myself.
Of course, the other issue which was personal for me,
was women's ministry gave $60-some thousand dollars
to this terrible conference.
It was one of the biggest gifts
and what sort of undermining of the church
were they doing by giving this money?
Although that was not my decision alone,
that was Mary Ann and I.
That also hurt because time and time again,
even the people in our own building
would say, "Oh, now we're losing our church members.
"Now we are losing our giving because the giving
"goes to such horrible conferences as Re-Imagining."
For all the things that were happening
in the Presbyterian church, it seemed to be all
caused by one of the (mumbles).
We're so powerful, you know.
(interviewer laughing)
-: Annie, earlier you mentioned they were really going after
Mary Ann Lundy, why was that?
Why were they going after her?
-: Partly, she and Sally Hill were good friends
and they were probably the strongest initiator
of the conference.
Mary Ann had always been very outspoken
about things and the church, but she worked well
in trying to help the Presbyterian church
but I don't know whether there were other reasons why.
But, because Mary Ann was one of the leaders
in the Re-Imagining conference, so they would go after her.
I mean, I was really a nobody, but I was an accomplice.
(ladies laughing)
It wasn't that they were going after Annie Wu
or anything like that, it was more just what
the women's ministry sat down and and I participated.
And, of course, I was the one.
When they made phone calls, I would have
to take the phone calls until we had a new director,
associate director.
The phone calls, I would have to listen to their,
"How could you do this, how can you use people to be
"the witch hunt and this sort of witch stuff."
It was just degrading and when they asked why did I send
the staff there, I said, "Because for the first time,
"we could all hear women from around the world."
When can you have that opportunity?
To me that was the biggest thing, not that we all agreed
with all the theology, but we could learn
and we could hear about women, how they've suffered
in some other countries and what the church should do
and what Christians should do.
-: Annie, you obviously stayed.
Did you ever feel as if your position was threatened,
that you were in danger of being fired
or losing your position?
-: Not for Re-Imagining.
-: Good, good, good.
Did your involvement in Re-Imagining change
your perspective on feminist theology and/or the church?
-: Oh yeah, sure, and in some of the local things,
like at the Louisville Seminary, we had a women's group.
They have a women's center but we had a women's group
made of other people more from the feminist perspective
and I was involved in that, just helping to plan and so on.
-: I'm sorry, was that before or after Re-Imagining?
-: Oh, after. After.
-: Did your experience at Re-Imagining lead you to do that?
Was it related to Re-Imagining?
-: Yeah, I think my whole perspective of women in the church
changed.
Women as women, what does it mean, created
in the image of God?
What does all that mean and what does that mean
as a person?
I think I grew up in a traditional but not conservative
church.
When I lived in China, because I was born there,
didn't last because the Japanese were coming
closer and closer to where my father and mother
were working.
When I was four in 1937, I was brought back to the states
for surgery and during the war, I was separated
from my father for seven years 'cause he stayed to help
the hospitals move inland.
Then he came to the states and had a couple of fellowships
and was working in the states.
As soon as the war was over in '46, we went back
to a devastated Shanghai, it was pretty bad.
I think the church there was an ecumenical church
that I attended and at first it was in English.
It was community church in Shanghai and I was very active
as a leader there.
Then it changed of course, after the revolution in 1949,
the church changed to a Chinese church in Chinese language,
but it was a very, what should I say, traditional church.
That's the way I grew up.
And then when I was back in the states,
that meant I had to find a church at that time
at the University of Pennsylvania.
I belonged to a Methodist church
which my grandfather helped build
as per a Methodist church in Philadelphia.
My mother was from Philadelphia.
In fact, I helped the pastor there.
Again, it wasn't really conservative,
but it was rather traditional
and so going to Re-Imagining later on,
and this was after being in Indonesia and all that,
things just sort of clicked for me as to what these women,
these feminist women theologians were talking about.
It resonated with some of my experiences
in the People's Republic of China, in Hong Kong
and the refuge situation and in Indonesia,
living in central Java and during the coup d'etat
so all of these things resonated with me,
which made me come to believe differently
about the church, and what the church was about,
and what the church should be doing
and, also, what my place in the church would be.
Some of that hasn't changed.
-: Annie, this is fascinating.
Could you just tell me briefly what resonated
with you and how did it change your view of the church?
This is really interesting.
-: I changed the whole concept
of what the church should be about.
Not just preaching, but the actions of the church,
and how the church should be serving the poor.
How the church should be accepting those
who were excluded before.
When I was at the University of Pennsylvania, no, no,
this was still in Shanghai.
A young man that I knew, because I was a leader
of the college people, the youth.
A young man came to my home, he was visiting me,
and I said, "Robert, you haven't been coming recently."
He said, "I can't."
I said, "Why can't you?"
He said, "I don't have good clothes."
That hurt, the fact that he thought he couldn't come
because he didn't have the right clothes.
-: Yes, yeah.
-: These things that the women talked about,
that people who are marginalized belong to the church.
We were preached about this, but to actually see them
doing things, again, the actions,
the living of the Word is more powerful.
That's what I saw in communist China after
the Cultural Revolution, that's what I saw
in Indonesia after the coup d'etat
and what I heard from these women theologians.
-: Oh Annie, that's really powerful.
I just have a couple more questions.
This has been wonderful.
When you look back on it, Annie, what do you think
is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining?
-: What was what?
-: Oh, the greatest legacy, yes.
-: Hopefully, just what it meant to me, hopefully
it's true for a lot of women.
However, I must say like with the Presbyterian church,
we have lost that.
I stayed until 2002, when I was downsized.
I knew I was going to be downsized
because actually I was older, I could get a pension,
I had a higher salary because I'd been there longer
in various positions.
I saw the change starting and then, when I heard
from my friends they eliminated the staff
in the synods, they did this, they did that
and the people in charge were not speaking
with the love and the compassion and the concern
for women, "Oh, we've been through that, that's nothing,
"we don't need to worry about that."
That just hurts.
I have, quite honestly, disconnected from a lot of that.
I do not know what's going on except for a few things
in the Presbyterian church.
My friends that I knew have disconnected,
and I think the legacy is in the hearts of some
of the people who continue.
I did not go to any of the other conferences afterwards,
partly because I didn't have the money or the time,
and traveling was more difficult for me
because of my disability.
So I never did go, but we're (mumbles) now
and maybe in some communities, maybe in Minneapolis,
there are still groups of people who hold on to that.
Hopefully, in the hearts of many of the participants,
it did make a difference, hopefully.
-: Annie, I just want to make sure I understand.
Would you say you've disconnected from the church,
would it be largely because of a lack of attention to women
and women's issues, is that a fair statement
or is that not correct?
-: Yeah, I think that's pretty fair, for me anyway.
You know, there's a Presbyterian women, but they're
a separate group now, they, themselves
are not under the church structure.
I mean, they're related, but they're not part
of what we used to have as the unit.
There's no real women's ministry unit,
partly it's because of financial things
and partly it's because of the leadership
in the last 10 years.
I don't think women's issues have gone away.
(laughter)
I still think in our society, although women
have different positions in many situations,
we still have problems and the church, the theology
of the church and some of what I've heard
or what I heard before,
it's just not quite sitting well with me always.
Social justice issues, we were working really hard
on such things.
I was helping, I was staffing the church on
Violence Against Women seminars and preaching.
How do you preach about violence against women?
I don't hear that now.
I may just be so far out that it doesn't, you know.
It's not that I've lost my faith, it's, I don't know.
The institution has really disappointed me.
-: Yes, yeah, so where do you think Re-Imagining,
and I mean that in the broadest sense,
Re-Imagining is happening?
Do you think that kind of thing is happening?
If it's not happening in the institutional church,
do you think it's happening anywhere else or not?
-: I don't have any facts but I suspect it has.
Since it's here in southern California, we have
what we call the feminists network,
Feminists Agenda Network.
This was a small group, leaders, I mean leaders
and many planners, for women in this area.
We have programs every year or so about
the conditions of women, the trafficking
and other such things.
For instance that group was inspired by feminist theology.
We have finally given up having programs.
Since the last two years, we didn't have
but I was very active in helping support that
and arrange that and so on.
It turned out that most of the women that came,
and they would probably be about 40, 50, maybe 60
at the best, it turned out that these women
were coming together because they were coming together
with their sisters, if you know what I mean.
They needed that nourishment.
They were already knowledgeable about the programs.
We had one on sexuality, we had one on trafficking,
we had, I can't remember them all, but we needed
to get together.
I think that's where you see probably the Re-Imagining
communities around the country.
Probably, you look up a place, there are other
such groups.
-: Yes, yeah. I have one last very specific question
that you may or may not be able to answer.
As you know, Re-Imagining has reincorporated
and we're developing a website.
I'm wondering if you had ideas about what
would be helpful to have on the website,
or who might be interested in it.
-: Is the website up?
-: No, it's not up, it'll be up probably,
we're aiming for the end of the summer.
We're working on developing it.
-: Well, I don't know, speaking for myself,
in fact, when there was something mentioned about a website
so I went into my computer to look at the Re-Imagining
things, and just reading something from a layman
that we do still have resources about Re-Imagining,
also some things even in Wikipedia, who was there,
or what, I just felt renewed again looking at that.
I think what would be helpful to somebody like me
is to know about what's going on around the country,
what's happening and what does this mean to women.
I don't know but whether people have any faith
in the institutional churches.
I know that some churches are very supportive and good.
I'm not talking about the individual congregations,
but the institution.
Maybe there are things like that, that could be helpful.
-: That sounds really good, great.
Annie, is there anything else that you'd want to add
that we haven't discussed?
(ladies laugh)
-: I think I'd better just shut up.
-: Annie, this was wonderful, really, really helpful
and interesting.
You've had an amazing life and your reflections
were really, really interesting.
-: Well, thank you, okay.
-: Good, I'm going to turn off the recording now,
so if you'll just give me one second to do that.